For people looking for friends in the Netherlands: The pervasive cynicism and mistrust in friendships
Posted by Time-Expert3138@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 84 comments
First of all, this is post is a generalization, because we're talking about a country and a culture, not an individual. Generalization is unavoidable.
Ok, I'm a Dutch citizen, have spent half of my life here, on the surface well integrated. Let's get that out of way first.
But what separates me from an average native Dutch is, I don't have the same cynical outlook on personal relationships. Yes, I'm mistrustful due to having to adapt to the social culture here, which to me is a learned survival mechanism. But cynicism? No, I refuse to let it corrupt my soul. This is something I'll never acclimate to.
What is cynicism in this particular context? Let me give a few examples:
-
The "I don't need more friends" mindset. True, friendship takes work and requires resource. But it's not work, per se, because genuine friendship is NON TRANSACTIONAL. However, according to prevailing Dutch culture it is, and that's where the cynicism takes roots. Since it's work, carefully weighing investment and return has become the default operation. And in my eyes that's cynical and as a result friendships with native Dutch people can be pretty transactional.
-
Individualistic culture. Oh, everyone is left to fend for themselves is so deeply ingrained in the Dutch culture there's just no way around it. Only in the Netherlands have I learned a whole new meaning of "fair weather friends", meaning as soon as any personal setback hits them they vanish from your life. And oh there will be setbacks, let's say, from burnout to pre-burnout to pre-pre-burnout. Not kidding. Never knew so many shades of burnouts...very noble they wouldn't BURDEN you with their personal struggles but the message is loud and clear: in return don't ever burden me with yours, and that's how I have been indoctrinated into mistrusting people here because let's face it, if we can't rely on either other in time of need how can we trust each other? Mistrust is the only sensible solution towards this dilemma. If there's no trust there's no disappointment, right?
-
Activities-centered socialisation. At this point I don't believe most native Dutch people have a grasp of the concept "hanging out", meaning being together for the sake of being together. What it means is basically you are not the means to an end (activity), but the end itself. That's just too much of alien concept to them, together with "it's important to know I'm valued for who I'm, instead of what I provide". It's an implicit social code that you don't just call upon someone to do nothing but just hang, like casually, no goal-oriented hanging out and enjoying each other's company. Nope. It almost sounds too UNPRODUCTIVE to most Dutch people. Remember, friendship is work. And works requires productivity to generate return.That's why suggesting joining hobby groups won't really ease loneliness in most cases, because by doing that you jump right in , become a means to an end, and being pigeonholed permanently as a running buddy, a reading buddy, or worse, a co-worker. Once pigeonholed it's almost impossible to break the mold because Dutch people are masters at compartmentalizing their life. Don't ask me how I know about it.
There are still so much more I can think of. But for the sake of keeping the post from dragging on, I'll stop for now. Just a final word to all expats who can relate to this post, or prospective expats who are dreaming of moving to the lowland: while keep your expectations reasonable, fight all you might to not let cynicism dim your light.
Legitimate-Error-633@reddit
Bit of background: I was born and raised in the Netherlands but moved away at age 26. Been in Australia since 2010.
I have noticed something weird: whenever I travel back to NL, it’s incredibly hard to lock in a catch up with my friends. If I approach them a few months early, they are ‘not sure yet, it’s too far away’. Then when the date is nearing, all of a sudden they are booked in & unwilling to be flexible or move things around. Even with the most trivial sh*t like visiting their in-laws two kilometres away.
For context, Australia is 16,000 kilometers away and I only see them every 3-5 years. These are all good friends of mine but they act as if they are busy CEOs booked to the rafters.
Big-Basis3246@reddit
Yes, they completely internalized this idea that not being busy (not an average Joe/mere mortal kind of busy, more like a CEO like you said) is sad/pathetic
Legitimate-Error-633@reddit
And I completely get being booked in, as a parent of young kids we even have kids parties every friggin’ weekend. But when a friend visits from the other side of the world, I make that happen.
Scary-Net4413@reddit
Do you talk to them a lot, when you're in Aus?
No-Jackfruit3211@reddit
This is an interesting post . Does the word "hang out" exist in Dutch? I tried to explain this expression to Japanese but the translation they give me is always off ..
Legitimate-Error-633@reddit
Yes there is even a term called “hangjongeren” which means “youths hanging out”. There are also expressions for catching up (“bijpraten”) and hang out with a drink or snack (“borrellen”).
Big-Basis3246@reddit
Yes, "chillen" exists for hanging out.
Positive_Bluebird888@reddit
You nailed it. I had the same experience in Germany. The most ironic thing is that many people who have this outlook on friendship are totally miserable, but they can’t see why they feel like that.
I think it has to do with Protestantism and industrialized societies. In southern countries, people are happier because the necessity of “natural” easy going socializing for a healthy life is instinctively recognized.
That’s why you never feel alone, even when you go out by yourself. Whereas northern countries are more goal oriented and individualistic. Many people feel lonely, despite having “friends” and family.
Legitimate-Error-633@reddit
The climate plays a huge role as well. Social live in the Mediterranean focuses on late dinners, late socialising etc because it’s a lot warmer for a lot longer.
Legitimate-Error-633@reddit
Kind of a hard disagree on point 3 though. I’m sure you’ve heard about ‘gezelligheid’? It’s a core concept in Dutch culture of just being together and having a good time.
Captlard@reddit
As u/bruhbelacc states. Welcome to adulting. The purpose of socialising can be to catch up via a beer or coffee, but to aimlessly be with someone who is not your partner is a pretty strange construct in my mind. I have lives in a couple of countries and “hanging out” beyond teen years is simply not a thing unless you are extremely bored (or boring) and uncreative. There is so much to actually do / tackle, so why hang out doing nothing?
lyingonthebed@reddit
What do you exactly imagine when you think of hanging out? It doesn’t need to be boring, you just have conversations and your complete focus is in the conversations. I am really having a hard time understanding why it is so hard to imagine.
Captlard@reddit
I don’t imagine.
lyingonthebed@reddit
Yeah, you don't sound like the type.
Schannin@reddit
Your point on the activities-centered socialization is really interesting to me. I’m American, and I’ve noticed this phenomenon in a lot of friendships I’ve had. I’ve been calling it being “intrinsically fun versus extrinsically fun.” Like, my friends that want to go to events or music shows or try a specific activity with me are extrinsically fun because they want to do something else but do it with me. Then there are the intrinsically fun friends, who want to spend time with me and then they make their own fun to amuse us. These are the people who ask to just hang out and then we brainstorm activities once we are already together. These are the types of friends who can go to the beach and have a blast digging a giant hole with their buddies because it’s something random to do, but it’s with their buddies.
My previous thoughts on the difference: I used to think a big part of the disparity was based on where someone grew up. Most of my friends who were from larger cities or metropolitan areas are extrinsic because there are always so many outside options available to them. Most of my friends who are intrinsic are from more suburban or rural areas without much outside opportunities, so they have to make their own amusement.
But now you’re making me think about the cultural expectations on how people have friendships, and how their own micro-culture (ie their specific family training) might have taught them about how to have friends- either as a means or as an ends. Most of my extrinsically fun friends absolutely still value me, and we frequently have deeper conversations, but they take place in public places. Now I’m wondering if their parents didn’t want them to bring friends over to the house, so that space was just never an option (I’ve had quite a few friends whose parents are very anti entertaining people in their own house). I’m also wondering if they see it as they need to suggest an activity first to justify spending the time socializing. They do tend to be more productively focused than my intrinsic friends.
Good food for thought, I’m sure someone has done some social science research on this. Very curious about how it plays out in other cultures as well.
Top-Half7224@reddit
Interesting take. As a foreigner, most of my friendships are activity based, there isn't enough shared history or experience to just hang out. Also, as someone with a pretty busy life, I cant imagine sitting around with another person doing nothing and it not feeling like therapy session lol.
onlykindagreen@reddit
That's the secret, it does feel like therapy, but that's kind of the point. Sometimes it feels good to just get things off your chest to a friend and in turn it feels good to hear someone unburden themselves. Also you'd be surprised how often someone who is not at all a trained therapist will say something that absolutely floors you and makes you reexamine something - you'd be even more surprised how often you end up saying something you think is just obvious or simple advice and it rocks someone else's perception of their situation.
Scary-Net4413@reddit
It feels like therapy because that's literally what intimacy is.
bumlove@reddit
I'd love to read research on this. I used to feel that meeting up for an activity wasn't as deep and meaningful as simply hanging out because I tend to have more personal conversations when hanging out. It feels like the friend is more interested in the activity rather than wanting to spend time with me and connecting on a deeper level. I guess its a leftover from my childhood and university days when everyone had plenty of free time but no money so you do random stuff like binge watch TV episodes or spend all day at the park.
Schannin@reddit
Same! I grew up in a suburb with no money, but time, and we would just hang out somewhere and then go explore random places.
I definitely prefer that (why do all my mid 30s friends want to go out places? Can’t we just veg together and enjoy each others’ company?). I also think my extrinsic activity focused friends feel like an activity is a good use of time and just hanging out is not, and that it’s being a good friend to provide a fun activity for people to entertain them.
OK-Smurf-77@reddit
I’m not Dutch but I’ve lived here for a long time. Absolutely agree.
You also nicely summarized why I get the grim smile every time I hear Dutch people complaining about “buitenlanders” being in their expat bubble.
Fil_the_Dude@reddit
People who have the same friends from kindergarden, doe normaal and never lived abroad, will tell you internationals live in a bubble. It is the definition of projection
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
This! There is a reason for that as well, I know many people who would love to integrate , but it’s impossible to break through the circle and to be accepted.
Strict-Armadillo-199@reddit
Are you a social scientist or psychologist by any chance? I've been living in Germany for 24 years, and by virtue of the pain and frustration of my own experience here vis-a-vis cultural differences around friendship and socializing, I've seriously considered studying this. The moment usually passes, because I'm not sure it'll lead to gainful employment, but I'd never be bored doing the research. Anyway, you've stolen my idea and articulated it very well, so I can move on ha ha. Thank you for this post. Interesting how similar certain Northern cultures are in this respect.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
I would normally agree with one of the comments, that it’s very common for the Northern cultures, but then you have: Scotland or even Iceland (but must admit I have limited data / experience with the latter). Maybe, it’s more typical for Germanic culture / Calvinism, which Netherlands is part of.
Fil_the_Dude@reddit
Berlin and Hamburg looked very social with cool people, but again I was a tourist not sure for locals
donac@reddit
How does this work for marriage? Just....nobody hanging out, its non-stop activities or it's nothing? Or you're not "friends" with your partner so that's different?
Time-Expert3138@reddit (OP)
From my personal experience, in general, even marriage tend to lack warmth and intimacy. Many couples have the vibe of coexisting as "colleagues". They prioritise productivity in all domains in life, and apply economical principles to all relationships: fair exchange, equality, efficiency, etc. Marriage is no exception.
Lopetan@reddit
As a fin this sounds familiar. Looking at the comments it seems common with straight speaking cultures. It also stings a bit, because I've been planning to relocate to NL and now I'm wondering if I can live among the so-called peach people.
There's an old idea for this, coconut vs peach. A German named Lewin came up with it after moving to the US in the 30s. Coconuts are hard outside, soft inside. Peaches are the opposite, soft outside with a stone in the middle. Finns are coconuts, so are Germans, Swiss, Danes, and Czechs I think.
Try small talk on a German and he'll brush you off. Tell him you've got two days in Berlin and want the best currywurst and a proper Berliner Weisse and you'll get three spots, how to get there, and what to order. Ask a Finn for directions and there's a good chance they'll walk you there.
I had the Dutch filed as coconuts too. That's why this post threw me. What OP describes sounds more like a peach, and honestly a bit alien to me. I can deal with reserve. We invented reserve. A tab on friendship is another thing. Maybe this is where the whole "going Dutch" thing comes from, if you're keeping a ledger on friendship you're probably keeping one on the bill too.
Time-Expert3138@reddit (OP)
The best way I can describe native Dutch people are: they are both flaky and unapproachable. It sounds like an impossible combo but that's my experience. They seem friendly initially, but once you get closer the mind game begins. Actually, Dutch people spend majority of their social energy on keeping each other at arms length. It feels very much like avoidant attachment, they push and pull, breadcrumb, string you along, ghost...all tactics to protect themselves from you getting too close.
30x34grinder@reddit
Dutch are apples. Bland. Probably robots
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
Coconut vs peach, quite cool analogy . It’s true though, Dutch are “peach”, they’ve got that famous surface, which earned them the reputation of easy-going/ communicative / open people. But if you live here, you get to see that past the layer, the surface is hard. Peach indeed.
Cool_Finance_4187@reddit
When people ask me why I didn't like two places one of which was in Neth I answer, nevertheless, not as good as you 😁
Remarkable_Noise_991@reddit
Kind of makes sense they were the country that enslaved the most and ring leader in slave trade of Africans. No interest in them
mp85747@reddit
It could be me, which I really doubt, but in my experience "fair weather friends" is a feature in most, let's not say all, cultures. Sayings like that don't come out of the blue and yeah, neither do "generalizations"! They summarize numerous people's experiences and they ARE true! That's where the other true "cliche" comes from - exceptions just prove the rule.
Key_Refrigerator234@reddit
I'm realizing this is very common for Dutch/German cultures. I really wonder why. If there was a direct affect or this is a coping skill.
queenofthepoopyparty@reddit
I lived in Austria, am married to an Austrian, and have close family/friends there. We’re there often and plan on moving back.
While I agree there’s definitely a cynical culture and it’s well known that they can have a chip on their shoulder, or a sort of envy (they even have a term for it, obviously, but I’m blanking on it). I very much disagree that the German cultures have the same attitudes toward friendship. I was really surprised reading this actually, because my experience with my Austrian friends has been almost the opposite. It took me a long time to get into the group or develop relationships with people, because they had all been friends since they were 13 or earlier and I was the college new comer, but once I was in, I was IN. My Austrian friends will give me the shirt off their backs if I ask them to, they’ve gone very much out of their way and dropped everything, no questions asked, for us when we’ve needed a helping hand. In my experience, they really take their friendships and relationships seriously and are there for each other. It’s a shame OP doesn’t feel the same way. I actually think that could be more of a Nordic thing as I do not experience this at all with the Austrians.
lalalandestellla@reddit
That’s interesting as I’ve heard a lot of people say the same thing about Austria not being particularly friendly or easy to integrate in.
queenofthepoopyparty@reddit
Oh, don’t get me wrong, Austria is not easy to integrate into and I would not count on the kindness of strangers or neighbors. In fact, I would count on the rudeness of strangers if anything lol. So I agree with what you heard and have said it many times myself. Many Austrians have a “way” about them that’s very off putting at times, there’s also things that I find really culturally problematic and just plain shitty, but what country doesn’t have that. That being said, if you stick around long enough and put in the effort to make real friendships in Austria, they are some of the best, most loyal friends you will ever have. It took me years to nurture these friendships, but like I said, once you become friends, you’re in for the long haul. I can’t speak for all walks of life, I know who I know there, but I’ve found over time people really open up and I’ve built strong, close, friendships over the years.
lalalandestellla@reddit
Haha yes, I experienced that “way” they have about them in Vienna. Mainly in ladies clothes shop, almost everyone else was much nicer.
That’s really lovely to hear that you have found your people there! It’s such a gorgeous country so you are lucky if you can make it work there. I live in a western anglosphere country and while people are more friendly than a lot of continental European countries, it also took time to build meaningful friendships. I think it’s actually like that in a lot of places once you look past the surface.
Key_Refrigerator234@reddit
My thing is how can a friendship be sustainable if only one person puts the energy in. It feels so daunting and it's worse as a foreigner when you are already struggling with belonging and being wanted.
queenofthepoopyparty@reddit
It’s not really like that. I mean, first of all, I was in my early 20s when I met these people and they were as well. It’s been almost 15 years now that we’ve been friends, so it’s really been quite a bit of time. In your 20s you go to tons of parties and see people, then you get invited along, or sort of invite yourself along to other things. One thing in Austria is that I had to just face the fact that the majority of the time, I was the one who will start the conversation. Austrians aren’t really into small talk, so you have to initiate, but once you get them going and ask them questions about themselves, like any human being, they usually don’t shut up haha.
So basically, have drinks (that’s a big one in Germany/Austria, they love their beer, it’s their social time!) Ask people about themselves, be an active listener, give people genuine compliments about their interests, and be giving. The rest will sort of work itself out. But you have to start the convo and you have to be the one to make plans at first, or awkwardly chime in and say you’d like to tag along. No one will invite you, until they will. It’s ok, you didn’t grow up there, you’re the outsider, embrace it! Be the interesting new comer instead.
ballsack-vinaigrette@reddit
Neidgenossenschaft
queenofthepoopyparty@reddit
Haha! I like yours, but the term I was thinking of is Wiener Grant or Neidkultur (my husband reminded me).
Strict-Armadillo-199@reddit
Maybe not Austria, but as someone with 24 years under my belt in DE, married to a German, and semi-professionally fascinated with how different the social structure is here from my own country, I'd say OP has articulated my experiences (and those of many, many foreigners here) to a T. I'm just surprised that it's coming from a native. It's really difficult to have that level of self-awareness and perspective on your own culture.
queenofthepoopyparty@reddit
Are you in northern DE? And by any chance, did you raise children there? I find the north is way different to Austria and the south more similar (for obvious reasons) although they won’t like that I say that lol. And I ask about kids because I don’t know your gender, but I’ve found that both the Germans and Austrians are extremely judgmental when it comes to anything about family norms and they get extra standoffish with outsiders when kids/families are involved. It’s one of my biggest problems culturally with the Germanic region and I find it needlessly cruel. I mean down to moms shunning another mom for buying a cake as opposed to baking it at home, stupid shit like that. Especially outside of the bigger cities.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
He's naturalized, not native ''I am a Dutch citizen'', but not Dutch :)
From my experience, natives don't really have much of self-awareness, on the contrary, they quickly become defensive.
godspell1@reddit
Austria is different in this regard and historically has been affected by influences from the south-east. Just think of the Austro-Hungarian empire and connections to the Balkans.
queenofthepoopyparty@reddit
Yes and no, they’re still a standoffish and mostly unfriendly bunch to strangers, don’t get me wrong haha. I just think once you really get to know them, their friendships are not transactional and they really value time with their friends and loved ones. They look past a lot of unusual, annoying, or whatever traits a person may have and will still be their friend because they value shooting the shit with them over beers twice a week. Of course there are activity based things we all do, but often, I find myself just hanging at a friends place, catching up for hours, cooking together, and then a few more friends pop in and out. Maybe I’ll go out with them, maybe I’ll stay in. It’s the way it’s always been.
Square-Can7325@reddit
Yeah I’ve heard that too, and it’s probably less about people being “cold” and more about cultural norms—more individualistic societies tend to value independence, boundaries, and planned interactions, which can come across as transactional if you’re used to more spontaneous, emotionally open friendships.
bruhbelacc@reddit
Adults don't hang out with other adults doing nothing. You're conflating living in the Netherlands with not being a teenager anymore.
Only-Ad72@reddit
Whenever topics like this come up it seems like a lot of people are indeed just struggling with making meaningful friends in a new place as an adult, something that is difficult even if you move to a new city in your home country. I'm sure there is some variation country-to-country but like you said if you're not a teenager or even lower 20s then you shouldn't expect peers to be centering their lives on socialization.
I imagine a lot of these posters are single too. Once people have a life partner a huge chunk of their "just hanging out" time is spent with them and the remainder will likely see their closest, oldest friends prioritized over new, potential friends.
iplie@reddit
Sorry, I disagree. What you said is partially true, making friends as an adult is usually harder and often isn't the main priority. But as someone who had the same exact observations as an OP, I can confirm that they are legit. I immediately knew what they are talking about. This culture has a very particular view of friendships and relationships in general which is not often talked about and it becomes a major culture shock. This is an interesting topic to discuss just for this reason alone. think suggesting that anyone who brings it up has some kind of problem is not helpful, and this is why all these false "common sense" comments are usually not received well.
Fancy_Violinist_5056@reddit
My friends often come over for no reason at all. We talk and catch up on what is going on in each others lives, things we're interested in, the state of the world etc. If it's nice weather we sit in the garden or take a walk. No need for an organized activity. I'm an adult in the US and I prefer this kind of thing to some planned outing like a movie or event of some kind.
donac@reddit
So interesting that people are mad about this. It seems a fairly mild statement.
bruhbelacc@reddit
We are the most angry about the things that we know are true.
Shibari_Inu69@reddit
LMAO it’s so obvious why no one would wanna just hang out with yall
bruhbelacc@reddit
Who said I want them to?
BrunesOvrBrauns@reddit
Absolute horseshit
romance_and_puzzles@reddit
Disagree.
bruhbelacc@reddit
You can disagree with reality all you want.
romance_and_puzzles@reddit
Happy to be living in a dream
Antique-Respect8746@reddit
I have at least one hang session a week, often more. Also long phone calls just catching up. Incredible to me how ppl will just declare their experience the universal human one. I'm a 40 yo professional. We make time for what we care about.
Can't speak to the Dutch element, I'm in the US.
Early_Switch1222@reddit
greek woman living in the hague here and this post is painfully accurate.
the activity-based socializing thing hit me the hardest when i moved here. back home if i call a friend its because i want to see them. here people genuinly dont understand why you'd want to meet up without a specific reason. "what are we going to do?" uh... talk? eat something? just exist in the same room? that concept seems to short-circuit something for alot of dutch people i've met.
the compartmentalization is real too. i have dutch acquaintances who ive known for years and they still introduce me as "my greek friend from [specific context where we met]." not just "my friend elini." its always tied to a place or an activity. and once that context disappears so does the friendship, like you described.
what i will say though is that ive found the exceptions tend to be dutch people who have lived abroad themselves, even briefly. something about that experience seems to crack open the default programming a little. my closest dutch friend spent a year in portugal and came back completely different in how she approaches relationships. she actually calls me just to chat now which sounds so basic but here that feels almost radical.
the SDV01 comment below kind of proves your point btw. "who has the time or energy" for friendships that dont come pre-packaged with a shared activity or a 20-year history is exactly the attitude youre describing. and then wondering why internationals stick together.
chnchgh@reddit
To be a bit of a devil's advocate though, I have grown to actually enjoy being introduced or getting introduced with "my friend from [specific context where we met].", because it opens up space to start conversation about that context etc., and at least for me, someone who enjoys getting to know people, this helps a bit lol
But I 100% agree on your overall take here, it is so true that "just hanging" is never enough, it almost always needs to be attached to something. After a while maybe the need for the something might dissappear, but it really takes a while until then.
Signed, a southerner living in the north
Significant-Yam9843@reddit
That's the moment when I realize as a Brazilian that some stuff is more cultural than I thought: we say "vamos nos ver" which literally means "let's see each other", like as a real thing, the point is exactly see each other's face and keep up with the last gossips about each other's life. The entire purpose of the meeting is grab a drink or a coffee and doing nothing but talking.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
''the exceptions tend to be dutch people who have lived abroad'', true. I would also add these, who are sort of outcasts here / arty people / musicians, I think they are naturally more open to others.
IndelibleEdible@reddit
Dehumanization is also an aspect of Dutch mentality around friendships.
There is this notion that it’s not “worth it” to native Dutchies to make friends with expats because “they might move away after a few years, so why bother?”
Essentially, you are not worth their time because you might move away some day and they only value friendship for life.
I’ve also heard the excuse that immigrants “aren’t Dutch enough” so for “their benefit” it’s best to not include them. What if they miss all that valuable nuance of Dutchiness after all?
Basically the best way to make Dutch friends is to be born here, otherwise you are not wanted
iplie@reddit
Exactly. If a friend moves away, I'd be sad, but also happy for them and supportive of their choices. And grateful for the quality time and enriching each others lives.
Dutch person: oh no, now I won't get my return on investment. Clearly this person couldn't be trusted, I with I've never met them. I need to raise my requirements higher to avoid this situation.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
Being born here is often not enough either, you must also be “normaal” enough so they feel comfortable around you. There is a reason “allochtonen” hang around together, while being born here and speaking Dutch as first language. I’ve never seen this in Southern Europe, where people (and genders!!! This is another one, in NL it’s often “boys with boys, football”, “girls with girls, kids” social settings ) mix more randomly. As I mentioned before, the Dutch seem to value more stability and comfort in what they call friendships. I swear some don’t even like their life long friends, but they hang around cause they know them for long and it’s safer than to broad your circle.
Big-Basis3246@reddit
I feel that it's especially bad for men. There's exceptions, but generally Dutch men don't seem to be socialized to retain the level of playfulness and empathy needed to sustain an adult friendship
Waterpatat@reddit
I 100% agree with this observation the cynicism is the worst.
iplie@reddit
This is so true and so well articulated, bravo!
Add to that the gaslighting from the Dutch redditors on this topic. Apparently you can't make friends with people who doesn't speak your native language. Also, only Dutch people experience close friendship, people in other cultures only form superficial connections (yes, the rest 99% of the world). Also, you can only connect with people through sports or hobby club, no other ways are possible. Also, colleagues can never be your friends, this is the law of physics. Also, if your friend moves to another country it's impossible to keep in touch in this day and age, and you get a negative return on your investment of time/efforts, that's why you need to prove your worth to us first. If you disagree with any of this, you are the problem and you've been living your life wrong. /S
SDV01@reddit
100% Dutch here. I have a wide circle of international friends and acquaintances (colleagues, neighbours, schoolyard parents, in-laws) and new people - internationals included - join naturally over time.
I’ve however learned to steer clear of self-proclaimed “expats.” In Amsterdam, many move on to another country or social circle without so much as a goodbye, even after they've been included to parties, weekends away. I've even babysat an American colleague's toddler for three whole days when their second kid was born - they proceeded to get married the following summer without inviting us, and the year after they moved to Singapore.
Personally, I love weekends like this one: (Afghan but fluent Dutch speaking) ex-neighbours over for Easter, a bunch of airbeds in the attic, a barbecue in the backyard, kids on the trampoline, everyone chatting, reading, or preparing even more food. No one felt the need to dress up or organise anything beyond hiding some eggs. The idea that I should recreate that with someone who doesn’t speak my language and whom I just met at the gym or by the Xerox machine feels unrealistic - who has the time or energy?
Dutch people do enjoy hanging out - just not with people who make them uncomfortable or who constantly argue that “the Dutch” should be less this or more that. So you can stay in a bubble of like-minded “fun” expats, or accept that most Dutch people are simply busy living their lives (without worrying about how the hundreds of thousands of annual newcomers might feel excluded by doing just that).
And one question for you: how many “expats” do your own friends and family back home consistently bring into their personal lives? Exactly.
donac@reddit
Honestly, lots of cultures are like this, I'm not sure why this is being so heavily downvoted.
For example, I'm from Wisconsin, in the US. We would easily have a weekend as you described it with close friends or family. But with new people? There's always going to be an activity, even if it's a just a local event in a park or sports game or whatever. This just seems like rational behavior.
Interesting post, though.
Strict-Armadillo-199@reddit
Are you aware of the fact that the content and tone of your reply proves the point OP is making?
SDV01@reddit
It may be hard to imagine, but most people don’t even care enough to think “go back wherever you came from”. They live their lives and just don’t think about “expats” feeling like the only gay in the village at all.
I at least took the time to step into this echo chamber and explain why many newcomers integrate quickly and have Dutch friends in no time: they invite their neighbours over for dinner and invest in stable relationships, rather than complaining that their colleagues don’t invite them to the Tweede Paasdag family reunion, only to move to another country and repeat the same complaints there.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
You cared enough to come here and correct other people's feelings. So, how is it working out for you, do you feel your opinion is supported by the comments / likes? You see dude, you cannot come to an immigrant and explain why ''expats'' integrate and why they don't. Cause, you've got no faintest idea what it is like to be a foreigner in the Netherlands.
Wannachangeusername@reddit
Hahaha true. Fell right into it. Thanks for making a point to OP post.
kitanokikori@reddit
I mean it's at least a helpful perspective and while I don't agree with all of it, living in a similarly ephemeral town I can understand not wanting to constantly make friends then lose them once they decide to take off
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
I would not count on that unfortunately . “If you have a problem, it’s always you” / “if you don’t like it, go back to where you come from”, is pretty much standard reaction here.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
OP, you nailed it. After 17 years here, speaking the language, having Dutch job, kids born here - I agree. Always an outsider. Life is not bad, but what they call “friendships” are not really friendships. For God sake, sometimes they don’t even like their friends, but they’ve got them in basisschool and they know they won’t get any others anymore. Lukewarm is “goed genoeg”. For some reason many other cultures don’t have this “friendships is hard work” bullshit. I think friendship is like fart, if you have to force it, it’s probably shit.
bruhbelacc@reddit
If you consider people's interactions fake then you're making yourself an outsider.
HamBroth@reddit
Sweden has some similarities to this in how we socialize. I am not a fan of =[