A British soldier demonstrates the new EM-2 self-loading rifle at the School of Infantry in Warminster,Wiltshire. (August 11,1951)
Posted by No-Reception8659@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 42 comments
Ok_Isopod_998@reddit
Too bad that the USA never adopt the 280 British ammo. And now, America is suffering through M14(7.62x51mm), M16 & M4(5.56x45mm), and XM7 & XM8(6.8mm).
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
Nah, we dodged a bullet with .280
Cristoff13@reddit
.280 was too heavy for an intermediate cartridge, too light for a full power cartridge. It was meant to fill both roles, but would have been mediocre at both. Like the current 6.8mm Fury round.
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
I also was not a particularly efficient cartridge given its size.
AstroJM@reddit
“Suffering through” the M4 is a crazy take.
yashatheman@reddit
Yeah, it ain't an AK, so suffering would be the right word for it
iloveneekoles@reddit
Crap ragebait
yashatheman@reddit
I'm an AK guy okay
Balmung60@reddit
5.56x45mm is actually good though, and in fact better than .280 and other more mass-focused intermediate rounds like 7.62x29mm. 7.62x51mm for standard individual weapons was a mistake, and 6.8x51mm is at best repeating that mistake.
L3PALADIN@reddit
11th of August*
TJfromSG@reddit
So that's the predecessor to the L85/SA80 family…
No-Reception8659@reddit (OP)
The EM-2 isn’t a direct "parent" in continuous development but it absolutely laid the design philosophy and groundwork for what eventually became the L85/SA80.
MuddlinThrough@reddit
The SA80 was descended from the L64 (or L65), a totally different weapon "outwardly similar to the earlier EM-2, but adopted a firing mechanism very similar to...AR18"
The only similarities are the bullpup config and use of an optic for each individual infantryman, honestly drawing any more direct lines isn't very relevant
No-Reception8659@reddit (OP)
Interesting,thank you for pointing out
MuddlinThrough@reddit
They actually don't have a whole lot in common mechanically, the main similarities being the bullpup configuration and use of an optical sight. This rifle was chambered in the (very) short lived .280 cartridge so there was basically no benefit to keeping much of it when making a new 5.56mm rifle a few decades later
It's more accurate to call it the predecessor of the SLR (FAL) which was adopted almost immediately after the em2 because a certain bastard chose 7.62*51 to be the NATO standard for dumbass reasons
alexlongfur@reddit
Britain: "hey we found a nice, flat shooting intermediate cartridge that allows soldiers to carry way more ammo AND is controllable in full auto shouldered!"
USA: "lol shut up nerd! We made our Garands magazine-fed and select-fire. Everyone HAS to use this almost-.30-06 carrridge now!"
(Left a lot of context out for brevity)
KeeganY_SR-UVB76@reddit
Also the USA, ~15 years later: “Yo, what if we used 5.56mm?”
Haunting-Top-1763@reddit
I know people here like to complain about the american rationale regarding this matter, however would the british .270/.280 cartridge really have been that useful of a choice for a general purpose infantry cartridge?
Right after ww2 everyone still had fresh in mind the difficulties of supplying allied forces using several different cartridges, the initial push was to standardize and consolidate as much as possible on the logistical end. The US probably especially though, seeing as they'd likely fight any future war at least one ocean away.
Also, and this is a little speculation drawing from hazy memory on my part, but they were very eager to adapt the german universal machine gun concept, so what was thought to be optimal for the MG as the squads main source of firepower was prioritized higher than what would have been more controllable in full auto fire by the infantry rifle, which most of the time should be used in single fire anyway.
Q-Ball7@reddit
Ask the Japanese, who ditched a ballistically-similar cartridge in the middle of a war for insufficient MG performance.
alexlongfur@reddit
Yeah there's definitely more to it, just condensed a bunch for "haha funny"
Q-Ball7@reddit
No, what actually happened was:
Britain: "hey let's adopt [a ballistic clone of] 6.5 Japanese"
US: "hey let's not. also, you have zero manufacturing capacity, your army exists solely to soak fire from the Soviets until we can get there and bail you out, so you need to prioritize your MGs"
.280 was a bad idea from the start and the US was trivially correct to reject it.
ZigaKrajnic@reddit
It wasn’t really flat shooting. Intermediate cartridges at that time were lighter bullet and mid velocity. It became better as the increased its power to try to satisfy the Americans.
If they were smart they would have accepted the 7.62 NATO as a Machine Gun / Heavy Rifle cartridge. Then kept working on the EM2 as a light rifle intermediate cartridges supplemental rifle.
Balmung60@reddit
Problem with .280 is that it's kind of a chonker for what it does. Like it's a pretty wide case for an intermediate cartridge and I imagine the dimensions would also demand some pretty substantial curve to magazines in addition to reducing gains in ammunition density.
MuddlinThrough@reddit
A substantial curve isn't that big an issue, just ask your mother..
But no, any actual review of the cartridge showed it was the better pick for an individual rifle, chonkiness aside
Balmung60@reddit
I'm not saying it's worse than 7.62x51mm, but rather that it would seem to have some deficiencies compared to later smaller-caliber intermediate cartridges like 5.56x45mm.
MuddlinThrough@reddit
No no, you've basically got the US argument summarised quite well there!
alexlongfur@reddit
I have Zach Hazard's gun rants to thank for that lol
Natural_Youth_5941@reddit
Can you explain why it was dumb? It is seemingly one of the most popular rifle cartridges in the world, unless you’re referring to the reasoning behind it as dumb
MuddlinThrough@reddit
The 7.62 is popular because it's commercially successful, it's commercially successful because it was NATO standard and therefore everywhere
The smaller, faster, lighter .280 out performed the 7.62 in trials but the US pushed for the bigger round because they had a boner for .30 calibre rounds and throwing their weight around (possibly to avoid having the totally retool arms factories from the M1 days)
The US / UK even made an informal agreement that if the 7.62 was adopted then the US would standardise to the FAL which was redesigned around that cartridge.. well we know how that promise turned out
Ian has made many videos looking at this, fun background noise while working
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9e3UCcU00TQxGe9az3yZLQZn5HAJ0Hwg&si=6lRh4p9Djehs2kBv
supermutant207@reddit
It's a good machine gun cartridge though, which everyone seems to forget about.
MuddlinThrough@reddit
Very true, but the NATO standardisation project was about primary rifles, once NATO went with 5.56 the rifle and MG cartridges diverged again anyway. I do wonder what a .280 machine gun would be like though... bloody expensive these days certainly!
supermutant207@reddit
TADEN gun https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/s/auxsNfBSI9
MuddlinThrough@reddit
Oh my lord...
You are a gentleman, thank you
supermutant207@reddit
Live fire at 1:36 https://youtu.be/wtjVf724G7w?si=oGBMknFXXVuBvIqT
MuddlinThrough@reddit
Ah, the money shot!
Balmung60@reddit
Basically, in a world where intermediate cartridges had actually been issued in significant numbers to troops, adopting a new full-power cartridge, any new full-power cartridge, not just .308 specifically, for a new individual weapon was doctrinally backwards.
stanleythedog@reddit
Most British location name. Just missing "Upon X"
Nom-De-Gruyere@reddit
"You can't fight in here, this is the War-minster!"
doodgedly-done@reddit
First battle bullpup?
No-Reception8659@reddit (OP)
Not the first experimental bullpup but the EM-2 rifle stands as the first modern,military-issued bullpup battle rifle.
Apprehensive-Cow5822@reddit
The EM-2 sure looks futuristic for it’s time.
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