Sharing charter costs when recruited as crew.
Posted by jdvfx@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 57 comments
Hi all,
So my sailing club (I am a member) had a race this last Saturday, and a few days before the race the club sent out a notice that one of the boats was looking for crew, and anyone interested should email "Scott" (with a private email address) if they were interested.
I sent Scott an email, and after that the conversation with recruited crew moved to text, but Scott got my number wrong, so I did't get any further details about where to meet until the night before.
It wasn't until the middle of the race that a conversation suddenly came up about splitting the cost of the charter, which took me a bit by surprise, since I thought I was doing them a solid by being there to do the work. At one point earlier in the day Scott even referred to me as "fresh rail-meat". I never got helm time, was barked at a lot, (all pretty normal for a crew-person), so it seems weird to be looked at to split the cost (working to figure out if its an even split or not). I don't know if any costs were discussed on the text chain that I wasn't on.
Any thoughts on the etiquette for this?
TenYearHangover@reddit
If they asked for crew and didn’t talk about cost until the middle of the ‘race’, then you don’t owe a thing…
jdvfx@reddit (OP)
Apparently it was all discussed on the group text that I was not a part of due to the skipper entering my phone # incorrectly. The cost sharing is customary for this race, but I have never participated in this series before, so had no knowledge of how it normally operates. It puts me in this weird edge case which feels very bleah.
throwleboomerang@reddit
Because I think it's relevant:
TenYearHangover@reddit
Ok, if it’s customary but you didn’t know… then it’s up to you.. was it worth it? If so pay. If not, don’t, and find a different boat to crew on…
callme2x4dinner@reddit
Hard no. In my day skippers bought dinner and some crews (on fancier boats than ours) got top of the line foul weather gear.
JeromeS97@reddit
If I’m not driving for at least a part of the race, I’m not paying - and have never been asked to do so in the 25 years I’ve been racing.
I’ve definitely split charter and registration costs before, but always upfront and with the understanding that I was running or co-running the boat. Don’t pay!
infield_fly_rule@reddit
Sounds very unusual but I also don’t really understand the “charter” aspect of a racing fee. Where in the world is this? We are all probably assuming USA. If so, I would agree this is completely odd. Does charter = bareboat? Was this travel to somewhere and more of a vacation than a club race?
jdvfx@reddit (OP)
Yes, USA. Its a local club with a fleet of boats, so the "charter" in this case is a daily rental fee for the use of the boat. This was a "fun run" race of club boats against other club boats.
cylinder-750@reddit
"Local knowledge"
Ask the yacht club leadership what's normal/permitted for club races. If they say that crew always pays, then you have to pay. That's the cost of being in the club.
That said, I've never heard of crew paying for the boat outside the obvious exception of friends getting together to rent a boat together.
Another option: "Captain, I wasn't told in advance that there was a fee to be on your boat. Given that miscommunication, what's a fair fee for me to pay?"
MissingGravitas@reddit
Ah, that makes it messier. I was in a similar club (i.e. with a fleet), and it was quite common for people to get together and split the costs. Similarly the club might arrange casual "races" or other trips. In such a case my default expectation was to split the charter costs unless otherwise specified (e.g. someone might say "I'm taking my family out, and could use an extra hand", in which case they'd usually also indicate the costs were covered).
But; this was a social atmosphere, think "hey, we're all meeting at this restaurant, there's an open space on the reservation, want to come?". If someone was going out they were doing it for enjoyment, not for work.
In pretty much any other case, such as where the owner is racing their own boat (or found one to charter, but outside the club context), I'd expect the owner to be covering the costs. Especially if they want to be the yelling type, because I don't consider that in the "for enjoyment" category.
I do agree that either way the costs should have been clear up-front.
infield_fly_rule@reddit
I’d find the “old guy” at your club and run this past him for a sanity check. But you probably need to find a new boat or even a new club.
Bikkleman@reddit
If it wasn't made clear in advance, no way is that normal.
There's no shame in riding the rail to gain experience but a skipper who refers to his crew as rail meat is not someone I'd hop on with again anyway.
Not giving less experienced crew helm time while racing is not uncommon.
Personally, as a skipper, I like to give everyone a bash, though. Also, despite loving helming, when I'm skippering I tend to spend as little time behind the wheel as possible
Stormin_333@reddit
Tough one. Might just be the busted communication. It's not unusual to split costs in a club like that, but def not usual for it to be a surprise. It's your call. Not unreasonable to say you were not expecting the cost and didn't budget for it. But you have to weigh that against him badmouthing you around the club. (Its not right, but he won't provide the backstory.)
I would call the guy and tell him you hadn't budgeted for it and would have liked some helm time if you were paying. See what he says. He may just say don't worry about it. Or if he insists, you'll have to make a decision. If it's a fairly small amount you might choose to pay and consider it a lesson learned. If it's a lot, maybe offer him part just for goodwill.
Good luck!
Only_Database6219@reddit
You pay for the experience. Pretty normal.
RevLemmyCaution@reddit
OP contributed (paid with) their labor.
BowFlight@reddit
I have never been asked to pay as rail meat.
Don_T_Blink@reddit
What?
wanderinggoat@reddit
It may be normal for you but it seems many agree with me that its a bit of a dick move to ask for money halfway through the sail.
jdvfx@reddit (OP)
I think its fine to ask to share the cost, even with strangers, but you gotta disclose that stuff up front. And if it was discussed in the group chat that I was accidentally excluded from, Scott should have made extra sure to catch me up on everything I missed, especially if there was a financial ask.
FODamage@reddit
If there was no agreement beforehand, you could just as well turn it around and bill the skipper your day rate as crew.
Foreign-Warning62@reddit
I’m gonna say this is unusual. The skipper generally incurs all costs, like race registration, and I would think this would include chartering costs. I think this would be doubly true for strangers. I mean I can see a group of friends deciding to race and splitting costs and then either splitting helm time or flipping for it or mutually putting the best person on the helm.
Maybe I’ve seriously lucked out with my skippers but I’m expected to basically show up. Water, Gatorade, (often beer), and snacks/lunch are on the boat. They’ve already registered and paid for everything and have the SIs printed out and gotten the bottom cleaned.
clarkbw@reddit
Same, never seen this. Skipper handles the costs like that. You bring the beer etc
strictnaturereserve@reddit
same here I crew on a boat and haven't paid them anything I turn up for hauling out and help paint the anti fouling and putting the sails on at the start of the season basically anything else.
basically if i'm just moveable ballast you don't get cash
Also if I'm paying I want some sailing time either on a sail or on a tiller also you don't get to shout at me its not your boat its our boat.
throwleboomerang@reddit
+1 to this- if I'm sailing any keelboat with >4 people my default is that I'm bringing my gear, a water bottle, and a protein bar and nothing else unless they're my friends and they ask me to bring stuff. If I get asked to crew it's my expectation that the skipper is handling all of the logistics unless they specifically say otherwise.
diekthx-@reddit
And buying the beer / dark and stormies apre racing.
Infamous-Adeptness71@reddit
I've skippered and raced a rental boat before and I sort of meekly solicit voluntary donations at the end, but it's not mandatory.
Raneynickelfire@reddit
You aren't paying. Refuse. You were brought on as crew to work, not to take a vacation like the rest of them.
You ARE being paid, right?
RedditIsRectalCancer@reddit
In your comments you sound like you're actually considering paying . Don't. This is beyond the pale that they'd even ask you. Especially after being treated like they're the ones paying you.
PossiblyBefuddled@reddit
I've done a couple of race series in a sailing club. In one, we agreed in advance to split the costs, and took turns in the various positions. The other one was organized by one person, who invited the crew and paid the fees, and was on helm the entire time.
The idea is, if the costs are shared, everyone is on equal footing. If you want to be in charge the whole time, you foot the whole cost.
jdvfx@reddit (OP)
Yeah, that's kinda my thinking as well. Had I known about the split cost, I would have been much more involved in the back and forth on what course and the sail trim, and would have definitely expected some helm time during the race. I'm going to reach out to the club office in the morning, because one thing I don't know is the full cost of the charter, and what my share represents of the total. And also to get their thoughts on the whole thing.
StarpoweredSteamship@reddit
Report back on how this goes, yeah?
LateralThinkerer@reddit
This is smart. If your back is against the wall you can demand the skipper show you the contract you signed agreeing to payment but that's a final resort. I'd also talk to the rest of the crew and watch their faces when they answer you - they may be trying to put one over on "the new guy". Happened to me once and I followed up on my commitments (pictures during the race etc.) but walked away from any and all payments. F that.
boatslut@reddit
What is the normal practice at your club / club racing?
If it is the usual thing then you screwed up by not asking / confirming If it isn't then buddy is being a dick by not confirming the cost sharing. Check with the other crew on the boat & other boats as to what's normal practice.
If it isn't a lot of money for you, pay it and decide if you ever want to race with them again. Personally, I wouldn't.
If it's a lot of $$ and you can handle whatever repercussions on your ability to find other rides, politely tell buddy to go f himself since he didn't specify the fees in advance.
Have raced on a lot of boats and the only boat I have ever paid to be on was my own. Fleet that I race in ranges from owners where we take the jet to go look at boats to one where the crew collectively covers operating costs. But even that boat doesn't ask guests to kick in.
jdvfx@reddit (OP)
Definitely not a buddy, he made no effort to get to know me past learning my name and "Are you one of my extra guys?"
I'm in-between jobs at the moment, so every $$ matters. Might not have changed my choice, but not finding out until the race is half over, and not participating equally is where I'm struggling.
strictnaturereserve@reddit
chancer.
djhunger@reddit
Ive been sailing for over 12 years and have done a couple hundred race mostly on other people's boats. I have never heard of crew being expected to pay a dime. If anything I've experienced the captian buying a round of drinks if the race went well. But absolutely do not pay. Find a new boat to sail on! Also advise him that if he needs everyone to pitch in then maybe being a captain of a sailboat isn't his thing. Crews are to be appreciated not used.
2Loves2loves@reddit
This, the skipper is asking for you to pay to work for him.
OTOH, I don't know of any race boat that was not owned by someone on the boat. (never rented )
2Loves2loves@reddit
WHAT! the skipper paid to charter a boat!? then race it?
no, I'd not agree to that at all. I would never ever have got on the boat, and he wrote your number wrong. That not crew, that's a pay to race spot. NFW
how much $ are we talking about?
strictnaturereserve@reddit
did you pay?
when you contacted him and he didn't mention it was a charter and you were not getting actual sailing time.
another question how long had he chartered it for and how much of the total cost were you expected to pay because if he wants to do that lets go sailing after the race. he doesn't get to cosplay at being a boat owner on your dime.
I'd be really pissy about it.
Its a bait and switch
T4whereareyou@reddit
It is no surprise that skipper Scott is needing crew. He appears to want to race and get others to subsidize his habit. I can guess that everyone else in the racing fleet are shaking their heads. Traditionally, the owner/skipper pays for the costs of the boat which includes such things as race entry fees, fuel, water, Gatorade and maybe even snacks. This probably should include Boat Charter costs as well.
supereh@reddit
Nobody asking about the real red flag - discussing while on the water and shouting.
Splitting costs is normal for some people, but if that’s on-the-water talk it’s clearly a boat I don’t need to be on.
Splitting costs is fine but this dude is a screwball.
grumpvet87@reddit
guests on powerboats contribute to gas costs and help clean up after the day.
owners who race pay all costs of race and people asked to crew are not expected to incur any costs. they are expected to help clean up post race.
i wouldn't pay 1 cent. besides the event registration what are the costs?
DarkVoid42@reddit
youre racing a charter boat ? isnt it against charter rules and insurance ? its like entering a rental car in nascar or something .....
throwleboomerang@reddit
Racing charter boats is completely normal for many events. There's no need to see any of that paperwork anyway because OP should not be paying to split costs on a boat where he was rail meat at the last minute and wasn't told in advance.
DarkVoid42@reddit
provides with refusing to pay if you wont be invited out again to any boat if you become that guy.
Indentured-peasant@reddit
One must always defend themselves in a situation like this. With tact.
Foreign-Warning62@reddit
Alternatively, everybody in the club knows Scott and understands why OP isn’t gonna crew with him again. Could go either way.
jdvfx@reddit (OP)
It was a intra-club race using only club boats.
throwleboomerang@reddit
Does your club actually charge charter fees for those? And are they substantial?
Playful_Quality4679@reddit
Does this include a week in the Bahamas?
Ric_in_Richmond@reddit
Asking for any compensation then you better have a captains license.
ghettoregular@reddit
If you haven't been told upfront then you shouldn't have to pay. You weren't given the opportunity to deny participating because of the cost. Don't pay.
BoyWithBanjo@reddit
If they didn't tell you in advance, they shouldn't expect you to pay. That's not a sailing thing, it's how life works. If they mistakenly omitted you from cost discussion, that is also their problem.
dmootzler@reddit
Only time I’ve been expected to contribute more than the occasional pack of beer has been multi-day offshore races where food is purchased/shared among everyone.
gc1@reddit
I always contribute... one 6-pack of beer.
RepulsiveTadpole8@reddit
Don't pay.
throwleboomerang@reddit
Absolutely do not pay a cent in my opinion, and if someone starts hounding you for it I'd go straight to your yacht club and let them know they set you up with an asshole.
IMO, the only situations where there might be a moral obligation to split fees would be if this was some very prestigious race where it would be well known to anyone racing that pay to play is expected, or possibly on a very small (4 person max) boat where each person is a very active participant (i.e. no such thing as rail meat).
Even in those cases I'd generally say the costs for a charter should be borne entirely by the skipper or split between skipper/tactician/main trim, because they're the ones who get to drive the damn boat.
"I'm sorry, had I known I was expected to split charter costs and sit on the rail, I would not have participated in the race. I will not be paying any money as this was not communicated up front." Would be an acceptable answer.