From $25 five years ago when I first bought to $90 today, Navionics is a thorn in my side.
Posted by Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 96 comments
I know others have posted, and everyone claims it's better to just rely on other sources. I wish that were true. I solo circumnavigated Vancouver Island two years ago, and the only source that was even remotely accurate in most of my anchorages (including some sketchy ones) was Navionics. I have a copy of official CHS vector charts that run on OpenCPN and they are absolute hot garbage, even with all the settings pumped up to max crashing OpenCPN - I'll add that I hate OpenCPN with a passion because of how unreliable it is. I used two other apps during my journey, neither was useful at all and barely got opened after week one and I can't even remember which ones they were. Navionics continues to be my go-to. Yes, it sucks, but it sucks less than everything else because of simple chart resolution and community information added in.
But I hate paying Garmin for anything. Genuinely. Despise them, especially with the enshitification combined with price gouging. But nowhere else do I actually see how close to shore I can get in small coves in the Gulf Island. Period. At least not that I've found. And to me that is the most critical part of using a chart.
If anyone has guidance I'm all ears (do not recommend OpenCPN) because I want off the Garmin poop train. I don't have a purpose-built plotter, just a toughbook and an android phone.
04_R32@reddit
Just buy it, download the charts ie Maine to the Bahamas, and click no when it asks you renew. Renew your subscription and update the charts on your needs.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Which means, as far as I know, I would lose access to the SonarCharts that make it so detailed and the user-contributed information that makes on-the-fly planning possible. That was my plan when I first started sailing.
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
Unless you're fishing or diving, there's no need for Sonar Charts.
04_R32@reddit
User data, tide data, and sonar charts still work for me (have not updated in a year). Agree with others that this a good backup, but no replacement for a dedicated chartplotter.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Chartplotters are no replacement for paper charts...
...said every grizzled genius sailor twenty years ago. Get with the times.
Wierd657@reddit
And they are correct.
Wierd657@reddit
It stays on the SD card when the sub expires.
Kanthaka@reddit
No Foreign Land is great for on-the-fly planning. Way better than the “hot garbage” that is the Boating app user contributed aspects.
MissingGravitas@reddit
First off, it's important to differentiate between the apps and the charts. That may seem silly, because often the apps only offer a single chart source, but once you understand that there are very few chart sources available it simplifies things.
Pretty much the main reason I kept Navionics around was because it often had more detailed^1 data, not because it was a decent navigation app. Therein lies your problem; nearly all other apps, be it Aqua Map, Orca, or most others, are simply re-selling each country's official charts. So in Canada that means the CHS charts.
So, from a quick glance, I think the other other source of more detailed data is likely to be C-MAP.
^1 This doesn't necessarily mean more accurate; in some more remote parts of Canada I realized that it was likely working off a 19th century chart, which is probably part of why the CHS vector charts lack detail. Similarly, I've heard some people report that in remote areas the sonar charts are likely simulated rather than reflecting actual sonar data.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I think you may have just found my contender for a Navionics replacement, thought the price is slightly higher... maybe? I am very confused by their website - is it a subscription? Is the purchaseable (you own it, they can't remotely deactivate it) filesets - I found the one for my region, but the $210 price tag I would hope would be a file download that I own...
I have never (and likely will never) want an app to navigate for me. I consider the app exclusively a chart viewer with current location plotted, that's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Much as I have no interest in having my phone yelling navigation decisions while I'm on my bike - I have a functioning brain, thanks - I don't need that when I'm doing the hobby that I am into specifically because I want to be engaged.
RE the simulated SonarCharts, yes, there are areas where it relies on interpolation but it is generally very obvious. I found two spots where this was the case on my trip around the island, one where the depth was off by over 20m in what looked like a promising anchorage. Ended up being a good anchorage but I'd never gotten to the end of my anchor rode before that night.
Wierd657@reddit
What chart plotter do you have?
TangoLimaGolf@reddit
From previous replies I don’t believe he has a dedicated plotter. That’s really the elephant in the room. I have Raymarine charts that I OWN because it’s on an SD card that goes in the plotter.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
How is it an elephant in the room that I recognize that in 2026 you shouldn't need to spend $800 on something with the power and functionality of a fifteen year old computer when I own four different devices better suited for the task? Insisting on standalone plotters on recreational boats is, to me, no different than expecting daysailors to be using paper charts during their entire voyage. Get with the times.
Wierd657@reddit
There's a reason chartplotters still exist. They are dedicated, waterproof devices engineered not to over heat or corrode in the sun and salt air. They have high sensitivity, high accuracy, high channel GPS receivers that can acquire 30+ satellites at a time. They have software stacks to work with NMEA PGNs and ethernet networking for radars and other equipment.
While I agree their relative compute power is behind the times as far as consumer devices go, but that's because LTS (long term support) devices don't need the cutting edge processors unoptimized consumer devices rely on to continue to be usable in the near future. Their software is optimized for reliability and compatibility for 10+ years.
If you're looking for a consumer tablet engineered the same way it'll also be $5000+ and still not do everything as well as a dedicated chartplotter. You are living in a fantasy land.
And as such, your eyes are your #1 and most important navigation tool, next is a paper chart, only 3rd do you rely on electronic charts and devices.
DarkVoid42@reddit
so why are commercial aircraft relying on $10 million worth of electronics to fly you using something with the power and functionality of a fifteen year old computer ? clearly the airlines should recognize your genius and use your 4 devices to fly their $100 million aircraft! you are truly a genius! better pitch your idea to them. Get with the times.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I... don't. See my other comments.
Wierd657@reddit
Well then you're stuck paying for commercial charts from Garmin, Navico, or TimeZero or using the multitude of free alternatives using open source or government charts of caring quality.
MissingGravitas@reddit
Ah, that reminds me of one other app... Aqua Map has a paper chart layer that you can overlay. Sometimes they can be quite old (i.e. around Newfoundland I think it was from the 1800s), but it may work as a "second opinion" for places where the CHS data is lacking.
If you have coordinates of an example location in mind, I can try to dig up a screenshot for comparison.
I had learned about this on another forum, where someone had a similar complaint about the CHS vector charts. When trying to figure out where Navionics got their data from for a particular harbor I tracked it to a 19th century chart. I suspect Canada is trying to keep their vector charts based on "known good" data. Since the main consumer is commercial shipping, I suspect remote places would be very low on the list to survey. The only problem with these old charts is that sometimes they aren't aligned to WGS84 (the old "sailing on land" problem).
MissingGravitas@reddit
$210 seems more like the price for a physical SD card to load into your plotter. From poking about online the app subscription should be much cheaper ($20/year?), but I'm not seeing official pricing.
I can't say whether it persists beyond the subscription period; I've seen a few posts on that topic for nav apps in general, and I believe the only one that clearly said you can keep what you've downloaded was Aqua Map. (In theory this is also the case with Navionics, but I've heard of issues that would force a log-out or otherwise lose the charts.)
Note that when I speak of navigation, I'm referring to actual navigation (the planning, marking up of the charts, monitoring the route, etc), not auto-routing. Most apps, like Navionics, are just glorified chart viewers that are dependent on GPS.
Mehfisto666@reddit
I like C-MAP and it is reasonably priced
Lycent243@reddit
I know it isn't as fancy, but have you considered paper charts? As far as I understand paper, the tech industry has yet to figure out how to add a subscription service to it. You could buy them (or photocopy if you are into it) and never look back. It's not like the depths are changing much year over year. Even if the land-based glaciers melt and dump all their water into the ocean, the bottom will only get easier to not hit.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I already own paper charts - including the "most recent" (I believe updated thirty years ago) versions on waterproof print for my most frequent sailing areas. To me obsessing over paper charts as superior to digital is no different than thinking standard transmission internal combustion is superior to electric vehicle technology, though at least in the case of charts one isn't killing the planet.
Lycent243@reddit
I'm not saying they are better. If you'd prefer to pay someone to use the data from their platform, that's up to you, obviously, but it sounded like you didn't want to pay increasing prices for that.
Based on your post and comments, it sounds like what you want is all the tech at a low low price (or even free, but at least a low price). That's great, that's what we all want. I hope you find it.
barefootviking@reddit
I have been using Navionics since it came out. Other than the price, I’m not sure why people are bashing it tho I have not really tried all of the new options, but I agree that it has been incredibly valuable. I lost all navigation and I use Navionics on my phone to get from Turks to the DR to the BVI. I’ve used it successfully when other charts were so off exploring remote parts of the Bahamas.
TangoLimaGolf@reddit
I worked for Garmin’s aviation division for over 7 years. Their stuff is expensive because they devote a ton of time and engineering into it. Back when BlueChart G2 vision came out we literally had a team of sonar boats that would travel around the country sonar mapping inland lakes.
When Garmin bought Navionics they didn’t gut everything and dumb down the quality. They retained the ENTIRE staff and made it better. This was also almost a decade ago and people are acting like a private corporation who paid millions for another business doesn’t have the right to make money.
keeldragger@reddit
Bathymetry / sonar charts on Garmin/Navionics are great. What else have they improved in the app in the last 10 years besides the name change?
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I'm confused about what "got better." You can't search the vector charts for textual features, which to me is one of the most hilariously glaring issues with it that should have been done a decade ago. Other than that, its display rendering resolution is questionable (always a bit pixelated and blurry), you have zero control over your local files and you can't manage your offline charts easily, your recorded tracks are in some mysterious who-knows-where that you straight up can't extract without going through one by one and emailing them to yourself, and they removed the option for static (non-subscription) chart purchases.
barefootviking@reddit
Is there a better option? Time Zero has an app, but it’s probably much more $
keeldragger@reddit
TZ iBoat and charts are reasonable and the app is a million times better.
barefootviking@reddit
I’ve had great experiences w Garmin warranty and gear. I’m a fan. Far superior to B&G.
Vast_Worldliness_328@reddit
Have you tried qtVLM? It is free to use, and has good integration with NOAA to download charts. It also supports instruments via NMEA. Lots of good video tutorials on YouTube.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Saved, going to check it out. The issue remains the bathymetry resolution, which I have yet to see bested (and I suspect that's why Garmin has gotten lazy, because they have a one-trick pony that is really good at its trick).
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
You are aware that Garmin doesn't source that data themselves right?
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Yes, I'm aware they use crowdsourced bathymetry, which is missing from most other apps, which rely on CHS data (I'm Canadian) data which is dangerously inaccurate and outdated.
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
Hate to break it to you but the crowdsourced data isn't used directly in most charting. Only in very limited use. The core charts are government charts.
TriXandApple@reddit
"I want best in class performance but I'm not willing to pay a token amount of money for it"
kokomo1989@reddit
Define “token amount”
CommunicationTime839@reddit
I’d be interested to see what you think of it.
Also Garmin does not seem to care about boaters their main focus is aviation.
kokomo1989@reddit
Honestly, Garmin’s only focus is on profits.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Love the guy in this thread who worked for Garmin advertising how much heart and soul Garmin poured into Navionics by... buying it and doing literally nothing to improve it for like a full decade.
kokomo1989@reddit
I was working in aviation electronics when Garmin bought out UPSAT, a fantastic company with excellent products. They just wanted the tech though, not the employees.
LibrarianSocrates@reddit
Open CPN is free. Charts are free for US and Europe.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Charts are free worldwide if you know where to look, but in Canada, our CHS charts are absolute trash - some are still based on surveys done over 150 years ago.
MissingGravitas@reddit
I wouldn't necessarily mind using some of those old charts; you just need to plot your position using visual marks or radar instead of GPS.
This thread on SailNet was digging into the missing chart topic, and this particular post has some good screenshots to illustrate: https://www.sailnet.com/threads/dumping-navionics-garmin-looking-for-alternatives.351707/page-6#post-2051790917
Note in particular how the Navionics chart has much greater detail, but... the satellite overlay shows it's not properly referenced. Then the Aqua Map overlay reveals what Navionics was likely using for the chart.
MissingGravitas@reddit
I wish.
LibrarianSocrates@reddit
Sorry I must have misread that somewhere. Must only be NOAA charts are free. Still, the charts are cheaper than Navionics now.
DarkVoid42@reddit
just buy an evo 3s. not running a charplotter is silly
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
People said the same thing about chartplotters against paper maps 20 years ago. Get with the times. We don't need to drop a boat buck on gizmo that has less power than my phone and even less functionality.
DarkVoid42@reddit
lol. would you trade the steering wheel of your car for a VR glove ?
stop using consumer grade crap for life critical stuff. the power of your phone cpu irreverent.
MissingGravitas@reddit
TBF, it's more like having a car that's still tiller-steered and wanting to swap in a wheel.
Personally, I do think they have some use: they get reasonably dim without special hacks for night use, they're usable in all sorts of weather (bright sun or heavy rain), and they are decent as a radar display. For always-on situational awareness, this is quite convenient. But for any sort of proper chartwork they're pretty inadequate.
I can use my phone or tablet in most conditions too, but I need to be mindful about keeping them charged and protected from conditions (not that water is bad for them, but it confuses the touch screen. My preference is to use mobile devices for primary navigation, and the MFD for radar.
sailingtroy@reddit
I guess we're all re-learning why the government was the authority and provider of charts back in the day of paper charts. NOAA needs to produce a better app and provide it to the world for a nominal price. The free market cannot provide this type of good.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
As a Canadian, allow me to say that I don't want CHS charts anywhere near my boat. They are absolute trash - there are areas where entire islands are still missing off CHS charts because they are so outdated. And as we can see in the United States these days, don't expect these institutions to be around forever, because some idiot will come along and wipe them off the face of the earth to pretend to save a few bucks and make sure no one believes climate change is real.
LimestoneSailingCo@reddit
I’ve navigated through a lot of remote locations across canada, but never have i seen a whole island missing off of a CHS chart. Care to share the chart number and location? I’d love to reference it in our course material if it’s true…
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I will check my sailing computer next time I'm at the boat to confirm where it was that I ran into that issue.
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
We can't even get the government to fund building better weather models and you want them to pump out a charting app?
lol
lmao even
sailingtroy@reddit
You don't get what you don't ask for.
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
NOAA has no interest.
Miserable-Miser@reddit
We certainly can get the government to do that.
We just have to vote for it.
larfaltil@reddit
So you're demanding access to Navionics, nothing else is good enough. You're asking how you can avoid paying for it. Don't think we can help with that. If you'll willing to put in some effort, maybe someone will care.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Mind quoting where I said that? I'm happy to pay for something that actually works and is updated more than once every ten years.
keeldragger@reddit
Orca is decent but I'd download the app and check the charts in your area before buying it. If you had iPad/iOS, TZ iBoat is solid. https://getorca.com/?via=keeldragger
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Holy balls, I can't say $220 a year is savings over $90 with Navionics, and just like every other source I've tried, they are clearly using CHS data which is basically useless for small craft. The entire anchorage I spend the last two days in is charted as two depths, neither of which are correct (I've spent a cumulative month anchored there over the last five years, I know it like the back of my hand). Pass on that one.
is0ph@reddit
I’m from Europe so excuse my ignorance. Around here all charts are based on nationally produced charts. The navy or some state entity maps the shore of the country (or a wider zone) and produces both vector and raster sources, which they sell.
Garmin buys these and integrates them in Navionics. Free apps like qrVLM allow you to buy charts and load them into the app.
So I am curious about where you want your chart info to come from apart from CHS. Mainly because I avoid community edits like the unreliable info they are compared to state produced charts in the british isles and northwest europe.
MissingGravitas@reddit
Often the official charts lack data for shallower areas where only leisure craft might venture, since the major focus is commercial shipping and defense.
Navionics, at least in the past, also contracted their own survey work. Similarly, Antares charts provide more detailed charts for parts of Scotland than the UKHO offerings. Sometimes they also incorporated information from older paper charts. This is even before considering the "sonar chart" option which provides even more detailed bathymetric data.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Not only this, but Garmin has the SonarChart system that crowdsources from people with proper fully-integrated Garmin systems (you can run your own Sonarchart without a proper system, as I do, but Garmin won't accept the data as it's not verifiable).
No-Sail-6510@reddit
Is their heading and speed a random number generator like navionics or can you get it to display useful information?
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
My Navionics ties into my boat's N2k network via WiFi hub and gives the exact same info as reads out on my instruments. Only issues I've had is if I'm not using the WiFi connection to save power, the built-in GPS on the phone likes to intermittently cut out and give 0.0kts readings.
No-Sail-6510@reddit
I’m talking about the stupid refresh rate for these values. They get updated like every second so your speed and course are almost impossible to determine if there’s waves or anything.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I've manually sifted through the N2k sentences coming out of my hub and head units because I've been trying to do some open-source bathymetry (without success). None of my instruments update at a faster rate than 1hz since they are all NMEA0183. At sailboat speeds I've never found I needed a higher resolution of data than that.
MissingGravitas@reddit
My guess is Navionics was more powerboat focused, where higher speeds could make use of a higher refresh rate. On my nav app I find I need to turn up the smoothing to get semi-decent outputs. From eyeballing them side-by-side, I suspect built-in plotters are even doing more smoothing.
No-Sail-6510@reddit
Yes once a second is insane. If you’re in the ocean it’s totally useless because one second your surfing down a wave and the next second you’re slowly climbing it. The devise is useless at that point because I all ready know I’m going between 7 and 3 knots.
futurebigconcept@reddit
I love watching kts speed on on the Tacktick or the Vakaros on the Melges 32 when we pump the main, slam crew weight and go from displacement sailing to planing.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I don't know Navionic's logic, but I strongly suspect that, like the instruments themselves, it is running an average over a certain period so you don't get massive spikes and lows from currents and waves.
No-Sail-6510@reddit
That’s all i need to hear. I’ll download it.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Enjoy paying $220 a year for less detailed bathymetry data than Gar(bage)min charges $90 for.
keeldragger@reddit
Orca - their instrument display is configurable and works well. NMEA 2k integration if you get their Core2.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I would hope they can simply receive the serial data over a COM port like Navionics and OpenCPN do - that's what I currently use to tie into my N2k system.
owlmode1@reddit
i think you already found the best thing for your stated requirements. though, now with AI maybe you or someone will vibecode a better/cheaper app, even then it will never be available on apple products. you have locked yourself in a nice walled garden fren, and now it will cost more and more with less and less freedom. you will own nothing and be happy. 😁
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
Sorry I enjoy using my brain and not developing psychopathy.
OddRoof5120@reddit
Ah. So... everything should be free and only madd for you. Got it. Or, you could build your own system and give it away free. Go ahead. We'll wait.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I don't recall asking for anything for free. I would be very happy to pay for Navionics if (a) they actually put any resources into improving it, and, as a direct segue, (b) actually made improvements that justified their absolutely comical price hikes.
LimestoneSailingCo@reddit
Our Sailing school is moving away from Navionics and running “Orca” for our Canadian courses in Lake Ontario this coming season. Even the free version is looking promising for at least knowing where you are and what’s ahead.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I agree that their free version looks decent, but the pricetag for the paid version is astronomical (over $220 a year, I assume USD, I stopped even considering it after that sticker shock).
hoyleacl@reddit
Sorry for the newbie question but are you running Navionics on an iPad, iPhone or on your plotter? This will be my first season on the water and it was recommended to get Navionics but I didn’t see an official app by that name on the App Store.
MissingGravitas@reddit
Garmin acquired them, but a search for Garmin Boating or Navionics Boating should work.
Personally I prefer other apps, but as you may have noted from other comments they have better shallow water detail in some places.
jayborseth@reddit
https://www.deepzoom.
com now has Canadian charts and tides and currents.
midnightseanavy@reddit
Just suck it up and get a fixed plotter. Like you, I have spent years with laptops and iPads. They work fine under most circumstances but fail at the worst times.
1# IPads will shut down when they get hot. Even a few min in direct summer / tropical sun will over heat them. Nothing worse than coming in a tricky port and loosing your charts.
2. The touch screen does not perform well in the rain / splashes. You get in rough weather the water droplets will mess up your charts. Cause false inputs and make using it very difficult.
I still use an iPad below where it belongs to mirror my chart-plotter. It’s just too important not to invest in a good chart-plotter. You can use the other devices below or as backup.
midnightseanavy@reddit
I don’t know why #2 is bold.
Miserable-Miser@reddit
Hashtag bolds the paragraph. So hashtag2 will bold everything that follows until a return.
midnightseanavy@reddit
Fixed. Thx.
12B88M@reddit
Honestly, you need a dedicated cart plotter that ties into the entire boat using an NMEA2000 bus. You'd be amazed at how nice it is to go someplace and know everything you should expect and see what it's really like on the same large screen.
As far as I know, all the newest plotters can connect to your phone, allowing for using your phone as a second screen.
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
I have used purpose built plotters, they are some of the worse technology I've ever handled. My current N2k system sends serial data over WiFi (or USB, depending on what device I'm using) to OpenCPN and Navionics. I don't want another piece of hyper-expensive technology on the boat that has less than a tenth the functionality of a tablet, costs ten times as much, and can be perfectly well replaced with a tablet. I also, bluntly, don't have room in the cockpit of my 27 footer for another instrument. Already have my array of ST60 instruments and compass.
12B88M@reddit
You literally just contradicted yourself.
You start by complaining about Navionics, but then you defend it and denigrate purpose built plotters.
Leweyb@reddit
Navionics on my plotter and on a huge iPad, they got me coming and going
pocketIent@reddit
At least it hasn’t bitten your leg off like moby dick
Proud-Suspect-5237@reddit (OP)
That is absolutely true, I should count my blessings.