VOR required for IFR certified aircraft?

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nascent_aviator@reddit

You don't strictly need it as long as you have a WAAS certified plane. Specifically for working on an instrument rating, you need three different types of approaches. You can do an LPV and an LNAV, but unless you can find a surveillance approach you're going to need some kind of nav radio (or to rent a plane) for the third.

Maybe you can buy a NAV/COMM radio to go with the GPS/COMM? If money is an object, you can get a basic Bendix or similar for pretty cheap. Really having two COMM radios is a huge workload reducer for instrument flight. And in the event there is a GPS outage, having a NAV radio is indispenable if you're going to fly in hard IMC.

GPS failures can and do happen, particularly if you live in the parts of the country where the military plays around with jamming them sometimes. IMO you're crazy to fly in any weather where the ceiling is below the MVA without a NAV radio.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

We are just flying for fun. I don’t think we would ever intend on flying hard IMC

But thanks for all the info

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Jwylde2@reddit

That is correct. A GNX 375 will give you ADS-B in/out and WAAS GPS. You will need a nav indicator or an HSI to IFR certify it though. A Garmin GI 106B would be the cheapest route, but honestly I’d replace the DG with a Garmin GI 275 HSI for the best bang for your buck.

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sirduckbert@reddit

I will get dissenting voices to this reply… but what’s legal and what’s smart are two different things. GPS is incredibly easy to jam, and the military can (and does) goof around with it once in awhile in localized areas.

I’ve had a RAIM failure on approach before as well.

I personally wouldn’t fly in clouds without a ground based navigation receiver of some sort on board.

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kokomo1989@reddit

Finally! Some common sense on this thread. Thank you. There’s a lot of questionable advice being given out by other commentators.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

Thanks for the input

We are still debating between a 355 only, a 375 and 205 or a 375 and 215 (the latter of which would have VOR)

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otterbarks@reddit

VOR is not legally required. However, what do you plan do when you have a GPS outage in flight? There are parts of the country where the military conducts GPS jamming exercises regularly.

Keep in mind VOR (via VOR MON) and DME/DME are the two fallback options the FAA provides with guaranteed coverage in a SHTF scenario. You probably can't afford DME/DME in a small GA aircraft, so that leaves VOR.

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Choose_right@reddit

Ask for vectors and check notams beforehand.

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poisonandtheremedy@reddit

Well, since you asked:

"ATC, we just lost our GPS and we're hard IFR, declaring an emergency, require vectors and altitudes"

In the rare instance I'm out of contact with ATC (rare but happens in SW desert flying), I'm looking at my compass and chart and heading towards the nearest suitable airport while squawking 7700 and firing up Guard.

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DankVectorz@reddit

I wouldn’t even consider it an emergency if you just lose gps. Just say you lost it and you’ll need vectors and/or divert somewhere.

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FridayMcNight@reddit

I have dual VORs in my plane; I'm not talking against them, and I fully agree with your points but the few times I've actually enoucntered NOTAMd GPS outages, the VORs that would have gotten me in and out were also inop. So MON is a thing, but those sumbitches breakdown all the goddam time. lol

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devJW@reddit

I have a IFR certified Cardinal with 2 G5s, a GNC 355, and no VOR/ILS capability. I took my IFR checkride a week ago in it. Don't worry about supporting old tech.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

How did the checkride go?

Thanks for the reply

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devJW@reddit

I passed. Thanks for asking. Also, if you’re trying to save money, I was able to install everything I mentioned plus a GMA 345 and GI 275 EIS on my own (with IA supervision of course). You can definitely trade money for time on the Garmin avionics that don’t require a dealer.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

So I am very curious about this. What are the requirements for doing it myself?

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devJW@reddit

Find an IA who is willing to work with you is the first step. That took me a surprisingly long time. But once we built a relationship, he felt comfortable overseeing me. Many guys will think you’re trying to short them money or try to cut corners and won’t entertain it. Plus they put their cert on the line signing your logbooks.

Only certain Garmin products can be installed by non-dealers and dealers generally won’t let you work with them. The Garmin install manuals are LONG and you should read all of them. I luckily built a relationship with a few guys in avionics shops that I can bounce questions off of.

Once you choose the products you like, buy them. They’re damn expensive so every percent counts. I use Lafayette Avionics and pay cash for a ~3% discount.

I’m not a fan of wiring and pin-outs so I work with Approach Fast Stack to build my harnesses. Sean builds BEAUTIFUL harnesses, I can’t say enough good things about him and his team.

Then, it’s all about finding the time to do it. I’m in the midst of installing the GI-275 EIS and it’ll have taken me about 7 days to do it. Working behind the panel is tight and uncomfortable but satisfying in the end.

Also, shoutout to the guys on the Cardinal forums. I bought mine knowing how active the community is and they have helped me in countless ways throughout my ownership tenure. There’s invaluable information there and it’s way more than worth the yearly price.

Feel free to ask me more questions here or PM me.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

Any interest in selling your used G5 units?

I will definitely have a handful of other questions

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devJW@reddit

The G5s are in my plane. The GI 275 isn't replacing them, but supplementing them as an EIS so I don't have any for sale.

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Small_Chicken1085@reddit

Sorry it’s been a while since I did instrument training so forgive me for sounding like an old dinosaur but how did you do a precision approach without ILS? Do they not require one on checkrides anymore or can another approach satisfy the precision approach requirement?

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devJW@reddit

The comments below are right on but I wanted to add a tad more: for the 3 approaches on my checkride, we did an LPV, disabled WAAS and did a true LNAV (no +V), and a circle to land.

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roundthesail@reddit

You can use an LPV for that approach on the checkride, even though it isn't a precision approach for other purposes.

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EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit

Wild. Did that change recently? I recall an Alaskan DPE getting in trouble for doing that but perhaps my memory fails me.

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CluelessPilot1971@reddit

I think the change was about 5 years ago or so, to "approach with glide path and DA counts as precision for training/testing purposes".

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skunimatrix@reddit

I would go with the 375 and 215's as your NavComm Radios. I say this as I just finished with a new panel for our 1965 Cherokee 180. I have a 175 + 2x215 because originally was going to just replace the inop KLN90 with the 175 as the plane had just gotten a fresh IFR cert last year before we bought it. Things sorta snowballed from there.

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SSMDive@reddit

You do not have a ‘four knob ADSB out’ you have a door knob transponder. You might want to bone up on nomenclature.

I say this because VOR is a very specific thing. It is radio based navigation.

If you have a WAAS GPS you don’t need radio navigation at all. If you have a non WAAS GPS you need to have the ability to use radio navigation as a back up.

I have a WAAS GPS and a ‘VOR’ and I have flown exactly one ILS in that plane in 10 years and it was for practice and just to see if I could get the auto pilot to fly it.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

Yes I’m new to all this. Sorry for the mistake

It’s a King 76A transponder. The ADS-B out is handled via uAvionix tailbeacon.

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SSMDive@reddit

Its all good, we literally all start at the same place - I literally had to call Aspen today to ask an avionics question (seems my unit is OLD and I didn't have the most recent manual to look up the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness which was updated). I just want you to be aware and since you were asking a technical question the definitions of the terms are pretty important.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

Also thanks for the info regarding radio and GPS requirements. Whatever we get will be a WAAS GPS unit

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fridleychilito@reddit

What is “four knob” ADS-B out? Do you mean the old transponder?

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Pilot_Tim@reddit

King 76? It's not ADB-S out. OP should also have a SkyBeacon on the left wing tip, or something that converts XPNDR + ADB-S to an output signal. OP might want to make sure that your plane is compliant with ADB-S rules and read the manual on it. SkyBeacon is pretty much set it and go, but it you want to be anonymous or change some parameter of it's operation you need to know how to connect to it's wifi to make these changes.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

Yes King 76A

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

I just meant 4 analog knobs (one for each digit), not even a digital screen

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taint_tattoo@reddit

Paraphrased out of the AIM— If you have a non-WAAS (TSO-129/196) IFR GPS:

For navigation under IFR the aircraft must be equipped with an alternate approved and operational means of navigation suitable for navigating the proposed route of flight (eg VOR, etc).
For flight planning purposes, a non-WAAS equipped users whose navigation systems have fault detection and exclusion (FDE) capability, who perform a preflight RAIM prediction for the approach integrity at the airport where the RNAV (GPS) approach will be flown, and have proper knowledge and any required training and/or approval to conduct a GPS-based IAP, may file based on a GPS-based IAP at either the destination or the alternate airport, but not at both locations. At the alternate airport, pilots may plan for:
Lateral navigation (LNAV) or circling minimum descent altitude (MDA);
LNAV/vertical navigation (LNAV/VNAV) DA, if equipped with and using approved barometric vertical navigation (baro-VNAV) equipment;
RNP 0.3 DA on an RNAV (RNP) IAP, if they are specifically authorized users using approved baro-VNAV equipment and the pilot has verified required navigation performance (RNP) availability through an approved prediction program.

If the above conditions cannot be met, any required alternate airport must have an approved instrument approach procedure other than GPS-based that is anticipated to be operational and available at the estimated time of arrival, and which the aircraft is equipped to fly.

It should be noted that this alternate prohibition is planning only and doesn’t apply once you’ve airborne— fly whatever IAP works best for the situation.

If you have an IFR WAAS GPS (TSO 145/146) you can use it for sole source nav and the prohibition against planning for GPS approaches at both the destination and alternate is lifted.

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Background_Tax556@reddit (OP)

Definitely going with a WAAS GPS unit

Thanks for all the info

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poisonandtheremedy@reddit

No VOR required.

GPS only builds are increasingly common in the Experimental world, especially for light IFR.

I have a GNC355 in my PA28 I added for my IFR rating. Paired with my iPad and Garmin Pilot, it's mint.

I also have an old KX125 which does integrated VOR/LOC.

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CaptMcMooney@reddit

i don't really care about having vor capability, down here even the MON vors are most likely out. Having an ILS is nice, how about a 215 and gnc355. gives you vhf, 2xcomm and gps.

think i may, may, MAY, might have used the vor radios once in the last 3 years. use the ILS sometimes however

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IM_REFUELING@reddit

RNAV will get the job done at most places, especially at smaller airports, though there's something to be said about the comfort you get from having an ILS as ol' reliable. Maybe I'm just old.

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bhalter80@reddit

You can have a WAAS GPS only airplane but most airports still prefer ILS approaches in low IFR conditions so I'd consider a GTR215 somewhere in the stack with an indicator for that.

If you ask they'll usually clear you for the overlaying RNAV but ....

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cazzipropri@reddit

VOR equipment is not legally required and, honestly, not that practically useful.

Plan a flight in your local area with any briefing software and get the en-route NOTAMs. Check how many local VORs are NOTAMed out of service. Let me know what percentage is out.

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otterbarks@reddit

I'm curious how many of those VORs are part of MON or not.

My understanding is the FAA is prioritizing repairs for the MON stations - which is enough to guarantee basic navigation above 5000 AGL. Most of the VOR stations that aren't part of MON will eventually be turned off, which is why they aren't getting much love from FAA TechOps.

There's a list of the VOR stations they're keeping here: https://www.faa.gov/ato/navigation-programs/vor-retention-list

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cazzipropri@reddit

The inop ones are typically not part of MON.

But there's some hypocrisy in keeping a VOR on the IFR charts and NOTAMed for months or years, when you know it will never be repaired.

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BrtFrkwr@reddit

I think your best economical bet is to put in a King KX-170B/175B with a KI-214 indicator with internal glideslope receiver

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phliar@reddit

It's not a requirement, but consider that GPS may be unavailable due to military shenanigans. If IFR is just an occasional thing and you won't go IFR when GPS is not available, you're fine... but if you want to use it for real, or if you might take an instrument checkride in the plane, you probably do want VOR/ILS.

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jjamesr539@reddit

VOR is not required, but make sure you read up on the rules for alternate requirements when using an aircraft with GPS only nav. It’s not just 321 anymore. If I remember right, an RNAV only flight plan requires an alternate that has a ground based approach or forecast of VFR weather. That might be an issue if you strictly cannot use ground based approaches. You may have to file a VFR weather forecasted alternate for every IFR flight, which might limit practicality.

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Zvenigora@reddit

VORs are considered obsolete now and many of them are being shut down. Surely there is no requirement any more.

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Sinorm@reddit

You do not need a nav radio to fly IFR. Occasionally you might find an airport where the ILS approach has better minimums than the RNAV and you won’t be able to fly the ILS, but this is an increasingly rare scenario.

Some people aren’t comfortable with the lack of backup if there is GPS interference in your area, but that is more of a personal choice. You can always get radar vectors to a different area with VFR weather or working GPS to shoot an RNAV.

If you are looking for a simple IFR setup leaving out the nav radio will save a bunch of money vs. buying a GTN650.

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M2K-throwaway@reddit

Technically yes

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Buddy and I bought our first plane today - a low-hour, cherry condition 1956 Piper Cherokee 150.

It's currently a VFR aircraft. Has old, 4-knob ADS-B out, Garmin 250XL GPS/comms, Stratux cup-mount ADS-B in on an ipad, no VOR at all, and all-old-school steam gauges. My buddy has his PPL and is working on his instrument rating (been running a 172 at a flight school). I have done ground school and passed the written and about to start the flight part of my PPL. We would like the aircraft to be IFR-certified, and we are considering avionics upgrades. The Garmin 355 or 375 would make the most sense, but neither has VHF Nav and VOR capability. Buddy says pretty much all modern approaches are WAAS GPS with RNAV or VNAV. If that's true, is it accurate that we don't really need to worry about adding VHF Nav for VOR/ILS?

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