I have a 2015 mazda 3. We have three cars at our disposal and I'm the only one that can drive manual. We normally take the SUV for family hauling and my MIL has her car out in front, so we take hers for quick trips. Yesterday my wife took the SUV and my MIL was gone. I had to run an errand an hour away so, just like Domenic Toretto when he pulled the covers off his Dodge. I beeped the alarm, and took off. I immediately remembered the control and engagement. I don't get that in either the SUV or the automatic corolla. I hope the manufacturers keep the manuals alive.
They definitely do not, and the article doesn't really make the point that they do. Basically says buy an M2 or M4 before the next gens come out
Very few automakers will "save" manuals. Mazda, Honda, Subaru, Porsche seem like someone somewhere made the corporate case that it will help bolster sales in certain models and trims. GM too, although honestly it's possible they just forgot they sell the CT4/5 at this point lol (and we're better off for it)
They offer the only manual trans in a truck in North America. The base corolla can still be had with a manual. The Corolla GR is a phenomenal manual experience. The GR86 is also mostly purchased in manual.
Interesting. I didn't know that. I was in a Toyota dealer a couple months ago and they had a Corolla in the showroom with a manual. I just assumed it was a 2026. Maybe it was just lightly used?
The best manual BMW shifter was made by toyota. The story of it is so funny. Iirc the toyota engineers were super dissapointed in the feel and raided the BMW parts bin and made some of their own stuff to make it feel as good as possible.
When has GM not forgotten that they sell cool cars that aren't the Corvette?
Chevy SS, 6th Gen Camaro, Buick Regal all stopped production because GM forgot to have a marketing campaign for any of them. Despite all of them being beloved cars. It's bizarre.
I think the CT4/5 are just remnants from previous management, being left alone since they don't have replacement plans anyways. Nothing else GM does indicates they care about manuals.
Next gen CT5 is currently in progress. No clue if it keeps the stick too given the Camaro is dead. Hard to see it happening unless it releases with another Chevy SS or something like that.
Manuals are slowly disappearing on entry models while getting paywalled and only put on higher end exclusive models - its unfortunate that people are gonna get priced out from having that experience.
I mean, what else do you expect? They’re the only buying demographic that puts their money where their mouths are in large enough numbers to make it viable.
There really aren’t enough buyers at the lower end of the spectrum to support too many cars with manuals in the first place. I’d bet money on the fact that we have manuals at all from some brands in 2026 is partially because so few options exist nowadays so they can at least bank of decent market share keeping the option afloat.
As I stated previously, it also doesn't help that some manufacturers make it impossible to even get a manual if they offer them. For example, I know a few people who wanted a civic sport hatch with a 6spd back when Honda still made them. Most people just gave up and went with a different car or got the auto because no dealers had them in stock or had very few options available. You just have to pray that they can switch allocations and find you one. You should not have to jump thru hoops just to get a basic car with a stick. Especially when the manufacturer already makes them!
The fact that US dealers refuse to do BTO car orders boggles my fucking mind. I refuse to pay new car prices plus their markups and be insulted by having a sales rep try to talk me into a car that doesn't check all of my boxes just because they didn't happen to order one like that. Absolutely not. If I'm not getting my ideal spec and have to spend time looking for something that mostly matches, I'll buy used and save on depreciation.
Then the customers didn't want them that much if they were willing to settle with an auto. And conquest sales didn't seem to hit them too hard if they didn't try harder. Look, the market just isn't there. I'm willing to be they'd need at least tens of thousands of customers yearly to justify / cover the costs of a manual option
No, it's called they needed a car and didn't wanna have to jump thru hoops just to get a basic manual car. If you make them difficult to get fewer people will buy them. You're making the car anyway, sell the damn thing to someone who wants it.
while getting paywalled or only put on higher end exclusive models
This is a big issue with cars in general. OEMs love to talk about how they have cheap entry level sports cars but actually go into a dealership and you cannot find these entry level sports cars anywhere. OEMs only manufacture mid and top trims because assembly line space is zero sum and they want more profit.
I recently bought a new VW Golf GTI S (base model). I live in the DC metro area so there are tons of dealerships to choose from. In a 50 mile radius of where I lived there were 94 GTIs for sale and only 3 were the S trim.
There's plenty of poor people with horses, just like there's plenty of single wides with Raptors and Camaros parked out front. Lower income folks aren't exactly known for great financial decisions.
owning a car is also something for the rich, the majority of people on this planet right now dont have a car and will never own or drive one.
Many people who afford a car today could also afford a horse instead, just not at the same time.
Horseback riding has always been left to rich people. It’s a lot of money to take care of a horse.
Oh, boy! Owning a horse in California is basically a subscription that eats money. Board is the killer with $1K/month bare minimum, $2k median, and $3K+ if you decide go nuts and fancy. That covers stall, feed, cleaning, and turnout. Then you add farrier, vet (...and this one hits real hard, say $10K-$15K medical bills aren't rare!), and various random extras. Good news is, leasing is way cheaper if you’re just testing the waters, but still not pennies at all.
P.S. That’s Bay Area and Napa/Sonoma pricing. Central Coast and SoCal can be a bit cheaper depending how far out you go. Rural Texas is way cheaper for sure, but yeah… We don’t live there!
The idea that everyone rode or owned a horse at one point is wildly incorrect. The even compare it to the number of cars per adult is also a bit silly.
They are misunderstanding the point and trying to be smart and all knowing (and failing).
I already tried to lay it out for them so I won't repeat myself. It shouldn't be difficult to grasp the then and now between horse riding for transportation then vs how many people ride horses now compared to how many people can (or can't) drive a stick.
That's not pendantry, it's straight up incorrect. You are pulling the /r/akshawally while being wholly and completely wrong about everything you are trying to correct.
Also, it's really really creepy that you responded to me (here) when I wasn't talking to you (here).
I'll repeat. Words don't mean what you think they do and you are not only misunderstanding the point, you are hilariously wrong in your attempt to correct others.
Oh yikes. Excuse me for replying to a double commenter!
I've always known ubiquitous to mean "everywhere", and in this context I disagreed with horseback riding to be "everywhere". The layman didn't own or ride a horse. Layman own and drive cars, own phones, pants, etc. Those are ubiquitous to me.
Again, I am SO sorry I creeped you out by replying to a comment in a thread we are both in. Please forgive me.
Not silly at all. No doubt that a majority of people at least knew how to ride and the horse could "drive" itself (and you) home if needed. Now we have an ever growing number of people deciding to never get a license or learn how to drive at all and that group is easily added to the folks who never learned how to drive a stick which adds up to a lot more people who can't drive at all now (forget about stick) than was unable to ride a horse even a century ago.
My only argument was that the word ubiquitous was a stretch. That's it. I need to remember that getting into the weeds pulls other pedants into the mix haha
A majority of people did not know how to ride a horse or have access to a horse at their peak. Number of horses was not simply divided by households. Horses were work animals on top of transportation. They were unbelievably more commonplace, which is a point I will absolutely concede.
Cars are more prevalent now than horses were at their peak (with most households owning at least one car), but I was never comparing cars to horses. I was saying riding horses was not ubiquitous.
Ubiquitous has a meaning.
Also, don’t trust AI overviews. As of 2017 there were 278 million cars in the US per Cox. US pop was 325 then.
Not sure why you’re comparing to the 1970s, but again, ubiquitous has a definition and it’s “1 for every 3 humans.”
Are you awake? Do you need coffee? Ubiquitous doesn't mean what you think it does and not only does the number of horses and cars meet the meaning of ubiquitous, you seem to be the only one here having a problem with this.
Except the secondary market doesn't exist in a vacuum.
When they're not building as many for the primary sale market, there will be fewer on the secondary market. Also worth noting, when the people on the primary market are buying them specifically because they *want* a manual car, they're more likely to hold onto them vs. the consumer who's snagging it because it's the stripped out basic model with no options.
If the only options for manuals in a few years are a very short list of luxury cars the secondhand market is going to be just as much if not more of a scam than these things are new.
I wouldn't call them a scam, nor would I call the depreciation on new cars a scam. The thing is, manuals are just expensive to produce, require more maintenance, are less fuel efficient, and are an enthusiasts ideal.
At the end of the day, they aren't profitable to make. As a result, they are going to be expensive.
I wouldn't say that's necessarily true for all cars. Costs are cut when you can use the same gearbox across multiple cars. Look at the Si and the Integra for example. Exact same gearbox in both.
The Integra is also a perfect example of pay walling manuals. You can only get a 6spd if you opt for the top trim, same for Mazda. The opposite is true to when manufacturers lock out manual options for higher trim cars as well.
Manuals are definitely dying out on their own, but manufacturers aren't helping themselves by making manuals either impossible to find or buy.
My gf just leased a 26 Integra. I probably could have convinced her to learn stick had they actually offered the manual on any trim. Let people buy the car they want when it's well within your power to make it.
Sure, but in the current business and regulatory environment, it just doesn't make sense. Consumers don't want it en masse, and you would still have to send those powertrain options for each vehicle through the government certification rigmarole for a measly take-rate.
Sad to say, but it makes sense to gate it to models that have a customer base that actually want it as an option in meaningful numbers, which means just the more expensive fun cars.
Felt the same way when Koenigsegg made their CC850 manual/automatic gearbox. Very cool, but doesn’t “save the manual” for anyone but a handful of ultra-wealthy people
Search it up. Koenigsegg developed a manual transmission that can be used both automatic or manual. Pretty trick, but yeah limited basically to the 1%ers
and it doesnt need to.
Technologies come and go, you also cant get a steam engine anymore for the average person or a car with a handle to start it.
in a few decades nobody will be talking about manuals anymore except for the hand full of people that have an oldtimer in their collection that is never used and that old guy at the bar whos somehow always there and talks exclusively about how things were better "back in the day"
Reminds me of the Toyota UX300e prototype and before that the GR HV prototype. They had a clutch and 6 speed H pattern shifter attached to potentiometers so it’s a fake engagement as well and you can use automatic or 6 speed mode.
In some dumb way, I'm more okay with this... if you look at the area under the torque curve of an EV, there's a lot of room to play with.
With as much as I enjoy driving with a force feedback steering wheel in a racing sim, and the eventuality of EVs being the way forward for the masses... I think it sounds like fun.
Idk, the duality of man I suppose, haha!
High end brands like Mazda, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda (for a start)? The GR Yaris, CTR, i30N, FT86, MX5/Miata, would like a word. These were all reasonably priced models 6 years ago. All had 3 pedals and still do. I get what you mean about entry level cars though.
but hate the trend of only high end brands keeping manuals alive
Straight from your post. The point is that high ebnd brands are not the only ones keeping manuals alive. Unless you meant something else.
As someone who is currently looking for a new manual car, it is slim pickin’. $32k Civic Si, $33k WRX, or a $34k Jetta GLI. That’s if you want something that can get out of its own way on the highway and not the size of a Miata/BRZ.
I didn't miss it, but the fact remains the manual options even in those brands are moving upscale and becoming more expensive.
None of the examples he listed are available for under 30k and they're all sportscars. None of them are econoboxs with manual options like those manufacturers used to offer.
Yeah most of the population can barely scrape by on modern autos with gizmos that scream at you when you depart your lane—and they’ll still try to merge right into you.
I think there would be a good chunk of people who wooild benefit from driving manual. It requires more attention to drive and it makes you coast at a constant speed in traffic instead of speeding up and full stopping (which makes traffic worse).
As an example, you can’t get a Civic with a manual in a trim lower than Si. So basically only the top two performance oriented models can get a manual while entry level is stuck with the CVT.
In my experience they create less maintenance for the vehicle. Without an automatic constantly driving the vehicle forward I use less brakes. I didn’t have my first brake job on my XTerra until 105k miles. Less braking, less wear and tear on suspension… I just ordered a manual Bronco after 12 years of automatics and I couldn’t be more excited.
This is a good point you brought up. I want to try driving a manual once or twice but I’m not sure if I actually want to own one. If there are cheaper options to try (rent) maybe more people wouldn’t dismiss manuals outright.
Judging by your current car, I'm guessing you aren't shopping in the North American market. That makes a massive difference. But even in Europe cheap crappy cars with manuals are a dying breed.
Dacia has that market cornered. You can get a Jogger for 12k€ now, I sat in one, and it didn't have a radio.
It had speakers, and music was playing, but there was no display, no preset buttons, nothing. Just a USB port in the dash and a multifunction volume/station lever on the steering collumn. I don't think it had a water temperature gauge or display either, just a temp warning light that would be blue when cold, and red when overheating.
it would have been kinda nice if the interior wasn't made entirely from recycled plastic, but I'm sure the car will do it's job for many years.
I bought mine. But ford only sells the stick with the mid trims. The GT and Darkhorse get it while the Darkhorse SC, GTD, and Ecoboost do not get the manual. It’s a bummer. For some reason people shit all over the GT82, but I’ve had two of them a decade apart and have thoroughly enjoyed both of them.
Outside of Reddit. Majority of consumers don’t care about manuals. Other than Toyota and I think Honda? SUVs and CUVs lack a manual. I don’t expect a manual if I buy an EV. It’s a supply and demand thing. The supplier has a MOQ.
It was a travesty that the more affordable M340i, heck even the 330i didn’t have a manual option like the prior generation did. That M3 paywall is brutal and the M240i isn’t good as a family car.
Do they? If they only offer it on the M cars, there won’t be many of them on the market. I kind of barely have $50k for a car, and I’d love for it to be a manual. A manual M240i would be a blast. But I’m not looking to pony up for an M3 just to get a stick.
Yeah BMW have a history of very average manual gearboxes.
On top of that, the clutches they put in the new onescan't really handle much torque.
My Supra is probably looking at a clutch replacement by 20k miles. Bone stock too. I've had several cars make a lot more power than stock make it to 80k+ on the stock clutch.
Though, this seems to be an industry thing. The Si and GTIs both have clutches that are barely capable of handling stock power
To be fair that was a clutch/flywheel that Toyota chose, not BMW. At least until the Z4 came out with a manual those were unique to the Supra. The manual turbo BMW clutches tend up hold up fairly well comparatively.
I love the E90 shifter. Nice weight and feel and I like the sort of longish throws. I also have an E89 Z4 and the shifter is more on the meh side of things but I still don't think it deserves the hate.
I went from an E90 330xi to an F30 335i xDrive. The E90 definitely had a much better shifter and transmission in general, though it can't hold up to the torque of the turbocharged engines.
BMW stock manuals have definitely always been tuned to a certain level of rubbery. Which is actually sort of impressive because the shift action in most of their manual gearboxes is quite good. They insert some optimal number of bushings and single shear joints and isolators and pieces of sponge and pencil erasers to make the most perfect rubbery feeling.
If you take all of that stuff out and insert a double shear rod and delrin spacers and so on, you can transform them into really phenomenal rod shifters. Top class. It’s a shame it requires so much extra development from the aftermarket to not be shifting a toothpick stuck into a block of cheese.
They've said they can't justify the R&D costs because the sales wouldn't cover it but their manual transmission not being they impressive obviously effects the sales lol.
Oh lemme guess, they're gonna produce some super-limited 800hp csl race car with a manual? And all the affordable stuff will be slopmatics? Wow, sure haven't seen that before.
BMW would try to make you pay extra to unlock the 5th or 6th gear. "Sorry but the price of the vehicle only unlocks the first 4 gears, it's also an extra fee to use the clutch more than twice in a minute"
Haven't they killed the manuals on their entire lineup except for like two M models? The company "committed to saving the manuals" offers the same number of manual models as fucking Cadillac lmao
Yeah this is horseshit. I couldn’t buy my 2019 330i with a manual in Canada. Paying lip service to this but reserving it for performance models kind of misses the point.
I don’t want a BMW to have a manual TBH. Nothing about their current lineup is focused on being engaged and connected. But they do make ultimate highway machines. A rubbery manual just adds more hassle and NVH.
No one is buying an M2 because they want an engaging and connected driving experience.
Given the market at the time and what I could afford, that is EXACTLY the reason I bought my M2 a few years ago.
Maybe I could have gotten a Miata if I wanted to feel more connected, but i also wanted speed and power. Oh and manual option was the reason I didnt get an Audi, and instead went for an M2.
Now we’re back to “we’re saving the manuals”? It’s the same shit. “We’re going to save the manuals” to “there is no case for continuing the manual.” Back and forth, forever and ever. And then they throw it into a gimped base M3/4 or M2.
I’m so tired of this. Either do it or don’t. Stop talking about it. I feel like I read these same two articles every few years.
Nothing's inconsistent. Publications just publish any bit of news on it. The last flurry of articles was from the M CEO saying they want to keep manuals around but they don't know how long their suppliers will work with them. This article is from the Vice President saying their engineers are working on a solution.
Previous news gave the problem; current news gives promise of a solution. Next news will either present the solution or lament that BMW couldn't implement it.
BMW is a for profit business, just like every other carmaker. They will sell manuals if it makes money for them, and won't if it losses money.
Sometimes maintaining a brand image by selling manuals while losing money per manual car may help a brand make more money as a whole, and sometimes the company owner might do a pet project that loses money. But in general the manual decision is made by the P&L.
Won't happen for many reasons. Manuals have been slowly dying for years and so will gasoline engines. Niche vehicles will have manuals that will eventually die off.
BMW's manuals existence is seemingly completely tied to the whim of what ZF decides to do. I'm pretty sure they already said they aren't going to bother developing a new manual, so if ZF shuts down those production lines/parts it's over whether BMW wants to keep putting manuals in cars or not. I believe getrag is a couple steps further down the timeline as they've already discontinued manual trans production even.
antons83@reddit
I have a 2015 mazda 3. We have three cars at our disposal and I'm the only one that can drive manual. We normally take the SUV for family hauling and my MIL has her car out in front, so we take hers for quick trips. Yesterday my wife took the SUV and my MIL was gone. I had to run an errand an hour away so, just like Domenic Toretto when he pulled the covers off his Dodge. I beeped the alarm, and took off. I immediately remembered the control and engagement. I don't get that in either the SUV or the automatic corolla. I hope the manufacturers keep the manuals alive.
bmwblog@reddit
They do, but unfortunately, next gen M3 won't have a manual
Kpints@reddit
They definitely do not, and the article doesn't really make the point that they do. Basically says buy an M2 or M4 before the next gens come out
Very few automakers will "save" manuals. Mazda, Honda, Subaru, Porsche seem like someone somewhere made the corporate case that it will help bolster sales in certain models and trims. GM too, although honestly it's possible they just forgot they sell the CT4/5 at this point lol (and we're better off for it)
JipJopJones@reddit
I'm surprised no mention of Toyota.
They offer the only manual trans in a truck in North America. The base corolla can still be had with a manual. The Corolla GR is a phenomenal manual experience. The GR86 is also mostly purchased in manual.
Captain_Alaska@reddit
The USDM non-GR Corolla hasn’t offered a manual since 2022.
JipJopJones@reddit
Interesting. I didn't know that. I was in a Toyota dealer a couple months ago and they had a Corolla in the showroom with a manual. I just assumed it was a 2026. Maybe it was just lightly used?
cultoftheilluminati@reddit
I mean it's a Corolla. 4 years old is probably fresh off the factory floor for it.
Kpints@reddit
Good point, miss for me. They also brought it to the Supra when BMW didn't to the Z4, though that's ancient history now
ugfish@reddit
Isn’t there a variation of the Z4 with a manual? Is it a different trans than that in the Supra?
willpc14@reddit
And they improved BMW's manual that they put in the Supra.
BWFTW@reddit
The best manual BMW shifter was made by toyota. The story of it is so funny. Iirc the toyota engineers were super dissapointed in the feel and raided the BMW parts bin and made some of their own stuff to make it feel as good as possible.
ShiftF14@reddit
It’s truly mind boggling that BMW can’t make a good manual transmission
Darthdickingson@reddit
When has GM not forgotten that they sell cool cars that aren't the Corvette?
Chevy SS, 6th Gen Camaro, Buick Regal all stopped production because GM forgot to have a marketing campaign for any of them. Despite all of them being beloved cars. It's bizarre.
sose5000@reddit
Cadillac just created a new trim for the ct5-v so unlikely they forgot..
Astramael@reddit
This was my take after reading the article as well. This reads more like: we’re doing as little as possible and if it dies we don’t really care.
T-Baaller@reddit
Since Honda's only sporty 2-door is automatic-only I don't think they deserve to be in the 'saving' camp now.
jondes99@reddit
Right, they could have not dropped the option from the 3 series 15 years ago if they truly wanted to save it.
RazingsIsNotHomeNow@reddit
I think the CT4/5 are just remnants from previous management, being left alone since they don't have replacement plans anyways. Nothing else GM does indicates they care about manuals.
KSoMA@reddit
Next gen CT5 is currently in progress. No clue if it keeps the stick too given the Camaro is dead. Hard to see it happening unless it releases with another Chevy SS or something like that.
coffeeshopslut@reddit
Especially after they made a comment saying Tremec was wrong about having a c8 manual trans
sporascom@reddit
Love the sentiment. Would love actual product planning even more.
acodout@reddit
I’m all for this. Manuals don’t need to be the fastest option to still be worth keeping around.
cedarvalleyct@reddit
No M6 in the new M3?
dezastrologu@reddit
They’ll probably put the manual gearbox under a subscription
Muttonboat@reddit
Manuals are slowly disappearing on entry models while getting paywalled and only put on higher end exclusive models - its unfortunate that people are gonna get priced out from having that experience.
arcangelxvi@reddit
I mean, what else do you expect? They’re the only buying demographic that puts their money where their mouths are in large enough numbers to make it viable.
There really aren’t enough buyers at the lower end of the spectrum to support too many cars with manuals in the first place. I’d bet money on the fact that we have manuals at all from some brands in 2026 is partially because so few options exist nowadays so they can at least bank of decent market share keeping the option afloat.
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
As I stated previously, it also doesn't help that some manufacturers make it impossible to even get a manual if they offer them. For example, I know a few people who wanted a civic sport hatch with a 6spd back when Honda still made them. Most people just gave up and went with a different car or got the auto because no dealers had them in stock or had very few options available. You just have to pray that they can switch allocations and find you one. You should not have to jump thru hoops just to get a basic car with a stick. Especially when the manufacturer already makes them!
dakta@reddit
The fact that US dealers refuse to do BTO car orders boggles my fucking mind. I refuse to pay new car prices plus their markups and be insulted by having a sales rep try to talk me into a car that doesn't check all of my boxes just because they didn't happen to order one like that. Absolutely not. If I'm not getting my ideal spec and have to spend time looking for something that mostly matches, I'll buy used and save on depreciation.
crunchynibbas@reddit
Then the customers didn't want them that much if they were willing to settle with an auto. And conquest sales didn't seem to hit them too hard if they didn't try harder. Look, the market just isn't there. I'm willing to be they'd need at least tens of thousands of customers yearly to justify / cover the costs of a manual option
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
No, it's called they needed a car and didn't wanna have to jump thru hoops just to get a basic manual car. If you make them difficult to get fewer people will buy them. You're making the car anyway, sell the damn thing to someone who wants it.
EdgarsRavens@reddit
This is a big issue with cars in general. OEMs love to talk about how they have cheap entry level sports cars but actually go into a dealership and you cannot find these entry level sports cars anywhere. OEMs only manufacture mid and top trims because assembly line space is zero sum and they want more profit.
I recently bought a new VW Golf GTI S (base model). I live in the DC metro area so there are tons of dealerships to choose from. In a 50 mile radius of where I lived there were 94 GTIs for sale and only 3 were the S trim.
strongmanass@reddit
Hobbies become more expensive as they get more niche.
AdOrganic299@reddit
Look at horseback riding. One ubiquitous, now a niche
kinkycarbon@reddit
Horseback riding has always been left to rich people. It’s a lot of money to take care of a horse.
Endlesswinter77@reddit
There's plenty of poor people with horses, just like there's plenty of single wides with Raptors and Camaros parked out front. Lower income folks aren't exactly known for great financial decisions.
Pixelplanet5@reddit
owning a car is also something for the rich, the majority of people on this planet right now dont have a car and will never own or drive one.
Many people who afford a car today could also afford a horse instead, just not at the same time.
jameson71@reddit
Our entire nation is supposedly rich compared to the majority of nations on this planet so...
NISMO1968@reddit
Oh, boy! Owning a horse in California is basically a subscription that eats money. Board is the killer with $1K/month bare minimum, $2k median, and $3K+ if you decide go nuts and fancy. That covers stall, feed, cleaning, and turnout. Then you add farrier, vet (...and this one hits real hard, say $10K-$15K medical bills aren't rare!), and various random extras. Good news is, leasing is way cheaper if you’re just testing the waters, but still not pennies at all.
P.S. That’s Bay Area and Napa/Sonoma pricing. Central Coast and SoCal can be a bit cheaper depending how far out you go. Rural Texas is way cheaper for sure, but yeah… We don’t live there!
cilantno@reddit
Ubiquitous is a stretch
SirWaldenIII@reddit
Wuh?
cilantno@reddit
The idea that everyone rode or owned a horse at one point is wildly incorrect. The even compare it to the number of cars per adult is also a bit silly.
SirWaldenIII@reddit
Wah?
rdyoung@reddit
They are misunderstanding the point and trying to be smart and all knowing (and failing).
I already tried to lay it out for them so I won't repeat myself. It shouldn't be difficult to grasp the then and now between horse riding for transportation then vs how many people ride horses now compared to how many people can (or can't) drive a stick.
cilantno@reddit
I'm a pedant, it's a major flaw.
rdyoung@reddit
That's not pendantry, it's straight up incorrect. You are pulling the /r/akshawally while being wholly and completely wrong about everything you are trying to correct.
Also, it's really really creepy that you responded to me (here) when I wasn't talking to you (here).
I'll repeat. Words don't mean what you think they do and you are not only misunderstanding the point, you are hilariously wrong in your attempt to correct others.
Professional-Form275@reddit
It's never this serious brother
cilantno@reddit
Oh yikes. Excuse me for replying to a double commenter!
I've always known ubiquitous to mean "everywhere", and in this context I disagreed with horseback riding to be "everywhere". The layman didn't own or ride a horse. Layman own and drive cars, own phones, pants, etc. Those are ubiquitous to me.
Again, I am SO sorry I creeped you out by replying to a comment in a thread we are both in. Please forgive me.
SirWaldenIII@reddit
Wah?
cilantno@reddit
Wah
cilantno@reddit
Neigh
rdyoung@reddit
Not silly at all. No doubt that a majority of people at least knew how to ride and the horse could "drive" itself (and you) home if needed. Now we have an ever growing number of people deciding to never get a license or learn how to drive at all and that group is easily added to the folks who never learned how to drive a stick which adds up to a lot more people who can't drive at all now (forget about stick) than was unable to ride a horse even a century ago.
cilantno@reddit
My only argument was that the word ubiquitous was a stretch. That's it. I need to remember that getting into the weeds pulls other pedants into the mix haha
A majority of people did not know how to ride a horse or have access to a horse at their peak. Number of horses was not simply divided by households. Horses were work animals on top of transportation. They were unbelievably more commonplace, which is a point I will absolutely concede.
Cars are more prevalent now than horses were at their peak (with most households owning at least one car), but I was never comparing cars to horses. I was saying riding horses was not ubiquitous.
FormulaJAZ@reddit
In the early 20th century, there were 25 million horses in the US with a population of 75 million.
Roll forward to 1970, there were 75 million cars in the US vs a 200 million population.
So yeah, horses were nearly as ubiquitous in the early 20th century as cars were in the 1970s.
(There are currently 290 million cars in the US vs 350 million people)
cilantno@reddit
Ubiquitous has a meaning.
Also, don’t trust AI overviews. As of 2017 there were 278 million cars in the US per Cox. US pop was 325 then.
Not sure why you’re comparing to the 1970s, but again, ubiquitous has a definition and it’s “1 for every 3 humans.”
rdyoung@reddit
Are you awake? Do you need coffee? Ubiquitous doesn't mean what you think it does and not only does the number of horses and cars meet the meaning of ubiquitous, you seem to be the only one here having a problem with this.
cilantno@reddit
For the love of your brain, don't use an LLM response as a source.
But yes, if you want to use "commonplace" as your definition, I'll concede. Horses were commonplace, now they are not :)
IStillLikeBeers@reddit
What the fuck?
cilantno@reddit
Fat thumbed. Isn't* lmao
StrangeSmellz@reddit
in the 1800's maybe.
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
That's why they invented the secondary market!
max_power1000@reddit
Except the secondary market doesn't exist in a vacuum.
When they're not building as many for the primary sale market, there will be fewer on the secondary market. Also worth noting, when the people on the primary market are buying them specifically because they *want* a manual car, they're more likely to hold onto them vs. the consumer who's snagging it because it's the stripped out basic model with no options.
RunnerLuke357@reddit
If the only options for manuals in a few years are a very short list of luxury cars the secondhand market is going to be just as much if not more of a scam than these things are new.
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
I wouldn't call them a scam, nor would I call the depreciation on new cars a scam. The thing is, manuals are just expensive to produce, require more maintenance, are less fuel efficient, and are an enthusiasts ideal.
At the end of the day, they aren't profitable to make. As a result, they are going to be expensive.
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
I wouldn't say that's necessarily true for all cars. Costs are cut when you can use the same gearbox across multiple cars. Look at the Si and the Integra for example. Exact same gearbox in both.
The Integra is also a perfect example of pay walling manuals. You can only get a 6spd if you opt for the top trim, same for Mazda. The opposite is true to when manufacturers lock out manual options for higher trim cars as well.
Manuals are definitely dying out on their own, but manufacturers aren't helping themselves by making manuals either impossible to find or buy.
My gf just leased a 26 Integra. I probably could have convinced her to learn stick had they actually offered the manual on any trim. Let people buy the car they want when it's well within your power to make it.
JALbert@reddit
Manuals are a luxury now. There is no longer a practical purpose, you're paying more money for the privilege of the (less efficient) experience.
max_power1000@reddit
Well said.
max_power1000@reddit
Sure, but in the current business and regulatory environment, it just doesn't make sense. Consumers don't want it en masse, and you would still have to send those powertrain options for each vehicle through the government certification rigmarole for a measly take-rate.
Sad to say, but it makes sense to gate it to models that have a customer base that actually want it as an option in meaningful numbers, which means just the more expensive fun cars.
eh_itzvictor@reddit
I just bought a manual Mazda 3 brand new two weeks ago, and it feels like one of the last of its kind.
CreaminFreeman@reddit
Felt the same way when Koenigsegg made their CC850 manual/automatic gearbox. Very cool, but doesn’t “save the manual” for anyone but a handful of ultra-wealthy people
Word_Underscore@reddit
the what
russsl8@reddit
Search it up. Koenigsegg developed a manual transmission that can be used both automatic or manual. Pretty trick, but yeah limited basically to the 1%ers
redditaccountxD@reddit
0.0001%ers
Pixelplanet5@reddit
and it doesnt need to.
Technologies come and go, you also cant get a steam engine anymore for the average person or a car with a handle to start it.
in a few decades nobody will be talking about manuals anymore except for the hand full of people that have an oldtimer in their collection that is never used and that old guy at the bar whos somehow always there and talks exclusively about how things were better "back in the day"
Delanorix@reddit
Car tech does actually trickle down. Technology is stolen and ideas are mass produced.
cpxchewy@reddit
Reminds me of the Toyota UX300e prototype and before that the GR HV prototype. They had a clutch and 6 speed H pattern shifter attached to potentiometers so it’s a fake engagement as well and you can use automatic or 6 speed mode.
CreaminFreeman@reddit
In some dumb way, I'm more okay with this... if you look at the area under the torque curve of an EV, there's a lot of room to play with.
With as much as I enjoy driving with a force feedback steering wheel in a racing sim, and the eventuality of EVs being the way forward for the masses... I think it sounds like fun.
Idk, the duality of man I suppose, haha!
Setanta68@reddit
High end brands like Mazda, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda (for a start)? The GR Yaris, CTR, i30N, FT86, MX5/Miata, would like a word. These were all reasonably priced models 6 years ago. All had 3 pedals and still do. I get what you mean about entry level cars though.
Muttonboat@reddit
Those are not high end brands in the same sense as AUDI, BMW, PORCHE and you know it.
Also the manuals in those line ups have slowly been disappearing in their lower models for quiet sometime now.
Most of those brands econoboxes had manual options, but they've slowly been dissapearing into higher trims or sport car offerings.
Setanta68@reddit
Metro_Boomhauer@reddit
Not sure how you missed it, but he's clearly making the point that there are multiple brands that are NOT high end that still make manuals.
poopmanscoop@reddit
As someone who is currently looking for a new manual car, it is slim pickin’. $32k Civic Si, $33k WRX, or a $34k Jetta GLI. That’s if you want something that can get out of its own way on the highway and not the size of a Miata/BRZ.
Muttonboat@reddit
I didn't miss it, but the fact remains the manual options even in those brands are moving upscale and becoming more expensive.
None of the examples he listed are available for under 30k and they're all sportscars. None of them are econoboxs with manual options like those manufacturers used to offer.
CuriousTravlr@reddit
Spoken like a true enthusiast, unfortunately, 90% of the population, especially in North America, want's nothing to do with a manual transmission.
The experience is burdensome to everyone but enthusiasts.
chuby2005@reddit
Yeah most of the population can barely scrape by on modern autos with gizmos that scream at you when you depart your lane—and they’ll still try to merge right into you.
I think there would be a good chunk of people who wooild benefit from driving manual. It requires more attention to drive and it makes you coast at a constant speed in traffic instead of speeding up and full stopping (which makes traffic worse).
shreddievanhalen@reddit
As an example, you can’t get a Civic with a manual in a trim lower than Si. So basically only the top two performance oriented models can get a manual while entry level is stuck with the CVT.
TheLastREOSpeedwagon@reddit
They're slowly disappearing from entry models? They're gone completely. It's not 2018 anymore.
asbyo@reddit
I mean… can’t they still? It’s not hard to save up 5-10k and buy a manual beater to mod and have fun with and blow up.
But yeah, new manuals from the dealership probably will cost more for all the reasons others are saying.
PheonixOnTheRise@reddit
In my experience they create less maintenance for the vehicle. Without an automatic constantly driving the vehicle forward I use less brakes. I didn’t have my first brake job on my XTerra until 105k miles. Less braking, less wear and tear on suspension… I just ordered a manual Bronco after 12 years of automatics and I couldn’t be more excited.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
The question is how do you preserve that experience?
It costs money to design and build.
And customers have overwhelmingly said "no thanks".
How do you keep that experience available (and good) when it being available is a net drain on whomever is building it?
Manuals can be good and can sell but let's not lie and say "oh totally if it was available everyone would buy one".
testthrowawayzz@reddit
This is a good point you brought up. I want to try driving a manual once or twice but I’m not sure if I actually want to own one. If there are cheaper options to try (rent) maybe more people wouldn’t dismiss manuals outright.
Aranka_Szeretlek@reddit
I was in the market for a lower end car recently, and I could almost exclusively find manual options. Automatic seems both rarer and, well, a premium.
RazingsIsNotHomeNow@reddit
Judging by your current car, I'm guessing you aren't shopping in the North American market. That makes a massive difference. But even in Europe cheap crappy cars with manuals are a dying breed.
ExplosiveMachine@reddit
Dacia has that market cornered. You can get a Jogger for 12k€ now, I sat in one, and it didn't have a radio.
It had speakers, and music was playing, but there was no display, no preset buttons, nothing. Just a USB port in the dash and a multifunction volume/station lever on the steering collumn. I don't think it had a water temperature gauge or display either, just a temp warning light that would be blue when cold, and red when overheating.
it would have been kinda nice if the interior wasn't made entirely from recycled plastic, but I'm sure the car will do it's job for many years.
Aranka_Szeretlek@reddit
Cheap crappy cars are a dying breed eveywhere, haha.
pieindaface@reddit
Was it French?
Aranka_Szeretlek@reddit
Yea
Ftpini@reddit
I bought mine. But ford only sells the stick with the mid trims. The GT and Darkhorse get it while the Darkhorse SC, GTD, and Ecoboost do not get the manual. It’s a bummer. For some reason people shit all over the GT82, but I’ve had two of them a decade apart and have thoroughly enjoyed both of them.
kinkycarbon@reddit
Outside of Reddit. Majority of consumers don’t care about manuals. Other than Toyota and I think Honda? SUVs and CUVs lack a manual. I don’t expect a manual if I buy an EV. It’s a supply and demand thing. The supplier has a MOQ.
NJD_29@reddit
Since EV’s only have one gear expecting a manual option would be odd.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
I'm doing my part.
magbarn@reddit
It was a travesty that the more affordable M340i, heck even the 330i didn’t have a manual option like the prior generation did. That M3 paywall is brutal and the M240i isn’t good as a family car.
MangoAtrocity@reddit
Do they? If they only offer it on the M cars, there won’t be many of them on the market. I kind of barely have $50k for a car, and I’d love for it to be a manual. A manual M240i would be a blast. But I’m not looking to pony up for an M3 just to get a stick.
neanderthalensis@reddit
If they're so worried about manual transmissions not squeezing out every bit of performance, why not make them an exclusive option for the M-lites?
Jlx_27@reddit
No they don't, at least not for buyers with smaller budgets.
zonda600@reddit
The somewhat article contradicts the headline, but BMW can keep em unless they plan on making theirs not suck.
egowritingcheques@reddit
Yeah BMW have a history of very average manual gearboxes. They're definitely not what they pretend to be.
TurboFucked@reddit
On top of that, the clutches they put in the new onescan't really handle much torque.
My Supra is probably looking at a clutch replacement by 20k miles. Bone stock too. I've had several cars make a lot more power than stock make it to 80k+ on the stock clutch.
Though, this seems to be an industry thing. The Si and GTIs both have clutches that are barely capable of handling stock power
RawrImAMonster@reddit
To be fair that was a clutch/flywheel that Toyota chose, not BMW. At least until the Z4 came out with a manual those were unique to the Supra. The manual turbo BMW clutches tend up hold up fairly well comparatively.
exdigguser147@reddit
This is mostly because modern turbo torque curves dont play nice with clutches in general.
SporeRanier@reddit
The manual in my E90 is fantastic, not sure what you’re talking about.
ElectroGhandi@reddit
I love the E90 shifter. Nice weight and feel and I like the sort of longish throws. I also have an E89 Z4 and the shifter is more on the meh side of things but I still don't think it deserves the hate.
MeIsMyName@reddit
I went from an E90 330xi to an F30 335i xDrive. The E90 definitely had a much better shifter and transmission in general, though it can't hold up to the torque of the turbocharged engines.
Astramael@reddit
BMW stock manuals have definitely always been tuned to a certain level of rubbery. Which is actually sort of impressive because the shift action in most of their manual gearboxes is quite good. They insert some optimal number of bushings and single shear joints and isolators and pieces of sponge and pencil erasers to make the most perfect rubbery feeling.
If you take all of that stuff out and insert a double shear rod and delrin spacers and so on, you can transform them into really phenomenal rod shifters. Top class. It’s a shame it requires so much extra development from the aftermarket to not be shifting a toothpick stuck into a block of cheese.
Scazitar@reddit
It's a bit of a circular situation.
They've said they can't justify the R&D costs because the sales wouldn't cover it but their manual transmission not being they impressive obviously effects the sales lol.
Averageinternetdoge@reddit
Oh lemme guess, they're gonna produce some super-limited 800hp csl race car with a manual? And all the affordable stuff will be slopmatics? Wow, sure haven't seen that before.
OldKentRoad29@reddit
They should switch to a transmission from Tremec.
McCrankshaft@reddit
5th and 6th Gear will be blocked by a paywall. "enjoy driving the car to it´s full potential for just 54,99 per Month"
OldKentRoad29@reddit
Stupid joke.
RBeck@reddit
Once you get outside the United States automatics are not as rare. In Italy they account for almost half of sales.
/r/regularcarreviews/comments/1n3fuo4/percentage_of_cars_sold_with_manual_transmissions/
gkhamo89@reddit
BMW would try to make you pay extra to unlock the 5th or 6th gear. "Sorry but the price of the vehicle only unlocks the first 4 gears, it's also an extra fee to use the clutch more than twice in a minute"
ArmoredGoat@reddit
Since we finally going back to peak car design. Can we have hydraulic rack as well please
MotorcycleCar@reddit
IDK I've driven cars with EPS that I prefer over hydraulic honestly. Now manual racks I can get behind.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
At least, you should give Mini a MT option.
NotoriousCFR@reddit
Oh how the mighty have fallen
That was around the same time that MINI was pretty aggressively advertising that every model in every trim had a manual available.
NotoriousCFR@reddit
Oh how the mighty have fallen
That was around the same time that MINI was pretty aggressively advertising that every model in every trim had a manual available.
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tclark2006@reddit
Yea a Mini Cooper JCW without a manual option is odd. That would be like Honda making the SI automatic only next year.
NotoriousCFR@reddit
Haven't they killed the manuals on their entire lineup except for like two M models? The company "committed to saving the manuals" offers the same number of manual models as fucking Cadillac lmao
MotorcycleCar@reddit
Yep,and the G80 and G82 will almost certainly be the LAST manuals from BMW I doubt it will make it to next gen M models.
nolongerbanned99@reddit
Sure they do. They took it out of the 3 series years ago and now say that soon they won’t have any manuals.
Omnivirus@reddit
Yeah this is horseshit. I couldn’t buy my 2019 330i with a manual in Canada. Paying lip service to this but reserving it for performance models kind of misses the point.
junker90@reddit
BMW's probably trying to find a way to lock it behind a subscription.
xlb250@reddit
I don’t want a BMW to have a manual TBH. Nothing about their current lineup is focused on being engaged and connected. But they do make ultimate highway machines. A rubbery manual just adds more hassle and NVH.
Mishka_1994@reddit
Given the market at the time and what I could afford, that is EXACTLY the reason I bought my M2 a few years ago.
Maybe I could have gotten a Miata if I wanted to feel more connected, but i also wanted speed and power. Oh and manual option was the reason I didnt get an Audi, and instead went for an M2.
jaaagman@reddit
The problem is I don’t think there are many people who will actually buy a new manual car.
Ill-Train6478@reddit
The article doesn’t give anything new. It’s the same ol story of current g8x offers the manual but the future m models is uncertain
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
Now we’re back to “we’re saving the manuals”? It’s the same shit. “We’re going to save the manuals” to “there is no case for continuing the manual.” Back and forth, forever and ever. And then they throw it into a gimped base M3/4 or M2.
I’m so tired of this. Either do it or don’t. Stop talking about it. I feel like I read these same two articles every few years.
simeddit@reddit
I swear I’ve read this same exact article since the mid 2010s
strongmanass@reddit
Nothing's inconsistent. Publications just publish any bit of news on it. The last flurry of articles was from the M CEO saying they want to keep manuals around but they don't know how long their suppliers will work with them. This article is from the Vice President saying their engineers are working on a solution.
Previous news gave the problem; current news gives promise of a solution. Next news will either present the solution or lament that BMW couldn't implement it.
somethingsomethingzz@reddit
BMW is a for profit business, just like every other carmaker. They will sell manuals if it makes money for them, and won't if it losses money. Sometimes maintaining a brand image by selling manuals while losing money per manual car may help a brand make more money as a whole, and sometimes the company owner might do a pet project that loses money. But in general the manual decision is made by the P&L.
StinkySoggyUnderwear@reddit
Inline sixes and manual transmissions… they are doing gods work
OldKentRoad29@reddit
They should use the tremec for their cars.
InfinitePossibility8@reddit
Prove it. Make it optional in every car model, not just the M cars.
LiberDeOpp@reddit
Won't happen for many reasons. Manuals have been slowly dying for years and so will gasoline engines. Niche vehicles will have manuals that will eventually die off.
Temporary_Shirt_6236@reddit
"We're gonna save the manuals...for our six figure M cars!"
—BMW
leedle1234@reddit
BMW's manuals existence is seemingly completely tied to the whim of what ZF decides to do. I'm pretty sure they already said they aren't going to bother developing a new manual, so if ZF shuts down those production lines/parts it's over whether BMW wants to keep putting manuals in cars or not. I believe getrag is a couple steps further down the timeline as they've already discontinued manual trans production even.
swampfox94@reddit
They really don’t. They keep nerfing the manual models because they don’t want to develop or improve their manual
SSobarzo@reddit
It would be great they point the location because the last time I saw there was no clear location of the pdf file for my model/year.
Mr_Quertz@reddit
Monthly subscription to use the clutch pedal sold separately
korpiz@reddit
3rd gear will be subscription only.
single-overheadcam@reddit
I think in the future, manuals will cost more and be a premium option.
Revolutionary-Rush89@reddit
But they’re going to make the clutch a subscription based item so they’re going to need 50$ a month.
helloserve@reddit
What's the subscription cost going to be?
BetweenFourAndTwenty@reddit
.$99c per gear shift
Finbarr-Galedeep@reddit
Why?
spwstrat@reddit
So bring them back in the Minis that people can actually afford?
Calibrumm@reddit
lmao