Looking for advice regarding students potentially false logbook entries
Posted by Emerghency@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 159 comments
Hey everyone, 800+ TT CFII here. At this point, i am 99% certain one of my students is purposefully falsifying his previous logbook entries from his previous instructor in order to meet the requirements for the PPL checkride.
He sent me pictures of his logbook so that i could double check his requirements were met, and i found some suspicious entries. biggest example is a 3 hour flight that had the day time entry crossed out and swapped to night time, yet the CFI put in the notes that they were doing ground reference maneuvers.
Went and looked up the ADSB data for this flight, and sure enough, flight started at 7:30 AM.
This is an extremely awkward situation as I have a decently close relationship with this student and instructed with him independently for some time.
Today I am calling up his old school to cross my T's and dot my I's before I proceed, but essentially just looking for confirmation and second opinions before I pull the plug on this guy and make sure I do it in a smart manner that also covers my ass.
Anyone ever encounter this situation before or just have generic advice on the best way to proceed? Thanks in advance!
_-Cleon-_@reddit
Any updates? I'm insanely curious to know how this went.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
following
IcyFriend1264@reddit
Crazy
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Update: Just got off the phone with the old flight school. They confirm this is not legit and should not have been logged as night.
Sympathy_Expert@reddit
What’s your plan now then?
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Basically, tell him what I know, see how he reacts, then move on from there.
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Good plan.
I think it's possible that maybe the other CFI was encouraging him to do this.
I'd suggest make it clear that you are not trying to get him in trouble, you are pointing out what is a pretty obvious falsification that any DPE, company hiring manager, etc is going to spot in 30 seconds. That if you signed him off for a checkride right now, YOU would get in trouble for endorsing what is an obviously falsified logbook, that can be easily noticed by anyone with a brain and verified by anyone with a FlightAware subscription. Remind him that these days there are digital records of everything, and fudging paperwork only works until someone decides to double check. And how long is it until hiring managers or FAA have some kind of AI where they can upload your logbook and it instantly checks every flight against historical ADS-B data? Tell him he's setting himself up for big, big, big trouble here.
See how he reacts. If he's horrified, says the other CFI told him to do this, then tell him to go through his logbook and correct and initial every entry that there's any question of.
If he pushes back- Tell him at this point all he has are scribbles on paper. You can write whatever you want in your own personal logbook- if you want to write down that you have 1500 hours in category OV (Orbital Vehicle) with 200 Space Shuttle landings onto aircraft carriers in night IMC, go for it.
BUT, the instant you submit that as proof of experience for a test, rating, checkride, job application, etc- you're signing your endorsement that what you submit is the truth. And if whatever you submit is one iota less than the truth, you're violating the regs, and you can get in big big big big trouble. Besides, imagine someday you have an accident or screw something up- you can bet the investigators will be going through your logbooks with a fine tooth comb. And if they find anything falsified, then everything you do or accomplish after that falsification will be called into question and/or invalidated.
And if he isn't horrified by this and falling over himself to purge any incorrect entries ASAP, then tell him you like him and you'll train him if he wants, but you cannot sign him off for anything because that puts your own cert on the line.
pisymbol@reddit
The great thing about SS time is it's all night XC.
Though I would also point out that it would be glider time .... not saying, just saying.
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Technically it is a powered vehicle, even if it's being operated as a glider... I'm sure the OMS pods could generate a little thrust in the atmosphere even if not much...
mnp@reddit
Maybe RCS burns for attitude control in upper atmosphere count as powered?
SirEDCaLot@reddit
True. And I know the OMS pods are capable of burning in at least some atmosphere, one of the abort modes for the Shuttle was a return to launch site where it basically hangs on until the solids are finished, then rides the main tank on SSMEs for a while to turn back toward land, then burns the OMS pods on the way down to waste the fuel for lower landing weight.
mnp@reddit
TIL there was actually one flight where OMS performed an abort to orbit when they had to shut down one SSME early. OMS delivers about 6 klbf each.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-51-F
SirEDCaLot@reddit
I don't believe that was OMS doing abort to orbit. That was a case where after the boosters were finished, one of the RS-25 main engines shut down, and the shuttle used the remaining two RS-25 main engines to achieve orbit. Do you have a source that they used the OMS engines on the way up?
mnp@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Maneuvering_System
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Interesting, that wasn't in the STS-51 article as far as I could tell.
Although from that article, I hadn't realized just how small the OMS system was. Only good for about 300m/s for a fully loaded Shuttle in space. That won't do very much in the atmosphere...
EsraYmssik@reddit
Well that's an obvious one to spot. The Space Shuttle doesn't do night landings.
SirEDCaLot@reddit
LOL I'm glad you found a red flag somewhere in that! :D
NevadaCFI@reddit
The shuttle landed at night 26 times by NASAs definition of night. The first was STS-8 at just before 1am at Edward’s AFB.
https://www.americaspace.com/2020/09/06/remembering-the-shuttle-night-landings-part-2/
b1e@reddit
Either way, he’s done with you and your school. It’s way too much liability to keep him on even if he makes some sob story about changing.
Because realistically now his entire logbook is in question. And new entries would need to be scrutinized.
Still, I’d ask him why he did that. Unfortunately this type of student will try to find another flight school. It’s important this be a teachable moment to try and prevent him doing this again.
bhalter80@reddit
If op drops him he just ends up being another TNFlyGirl where they go shopping and everyone says "I knew they were a mess but sat on my hands". Op should get him sorted out since he's been down the rabbit hole.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Did that really happen to them?
bhalter80@reddit
That's how I read this passage from the report
At the least difficulty maintaining SA would have been a red flag for her IR. Poor manual airplane handling would have been a red flag for her HP/CMP endorsement at the least.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Ah that makes sense, thanks for posting that background info
bhalter80@reddit
I don't know how actively they sat on their hands she might have been fine for the point in time that she took her ride and they saw their job as done.
The things I really wish we could get to in the CFI oral are around safety management like:
It's one thing to be able to quote chapter and verse the FAA's version of induced drag while skimming BSP and another to be willing to assert yourself as a professional and manage the outcome of a student conversation.
lefrenchkiwi@reddit
Honestly the FAA allowing this just blows my mind. In my country, fresh instructors have to have 100 hours of dual given under direct supervision (supervising instructor physically present on the airfield but not necessarily in the lesson) before being allowed to progress to indirect supervision (supervising instructor doesn’t have to be there just has to be contactable). Getting rid of the supervision requirement entirely requires another ride.
bhalter80@reddit
Ya that's how Canada is too we just let you YOLO it
BarnackBro1914@reddit
>" ...another TNFlyGirl where they go shopping"
A shame that this name is now associated with CFI "shopping," but it sure is appropriate.
tarrasque@reddit
What can OP realistically do?
Also, most people don't have the money to be a TNFlyGirl. Fortunately.
bhalter80@reddit
Keep him on a short leash, until he either does it right or runs out of money
RogLatimer118@reddit
I would not do that. IMHO his character is such that he should never get a PPL. I'd talk to an FSDO.
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
Found the holy than though gatekeeper! Some kid is trying to save $1000 on a BS XC that teaches you NOTHING. Sitting in cruise... so educational!
Nothing will happen if you call the FSDO. He will make a call, it will be explained as a simple 'I recalled it being a night flight' and then its over.
The pearl clutching is so hilarious.
Otakugung@reddit
No night flight I teach about night illusions and importance of checklist usage. The number of times I see student come in on a night landing with no landing light on, low on glideslope is shocking. Report to the FSDO and do his night flight. Us pilots are held to a high moral standard.
b1e@reddit
Yeah, I mean this is straight up fraud. This isn’t fudging Hobbs time this is outright knowingly lying about the type of flight. It’s not some fore flight misclick either.
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
LOL you are in a dream world. FSDO isn't gonna do anything. The student will just say 'I remember it being a night flight... my bad' and that will be it.
bhalter80@reddit
So the FSDO revokes him, he sits out a year and then he can reapply, right?
bhalter80@reddit
The FSDO can only suspend him or revoke him for the 61.51 violation. Even if you wilfully crash a plane, destroy the evidence and lie about it you only lose a year.Do you see a
r80rambler@reddit
Maybe he only gets a year suspension, but at least there’s formal documentation of log fraud.
bhalter80@reddit
What year R80 do you ride?
run264fun@reddit
Dishonesty is a slippery slope. Sooner or later he’ll get caught and there will be consequences
DaBear_Lurker@reddit
Isn't that now?
NevadaCFI@reddit
I would write a log entry saying you are no longer working with this student and if any future CFI has questions to call you, writing your number in his logbook.
BrigGPrice@reddit
I like this idea
Realistic-Level-9444@reddit
if you are part of flight school did you involve the Chief Pilot\management of school? maybe seek their advice on the matter as well?
mirassou3416@reddit
That sounds like a plan…hit him between the eyes with it and tell him it’s never going to happen again
vivalicious16@reddit
Good luck, at least you have the flight school on your side if you need backup.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
tell us how it goes.. good luck
Dan007UT@reddit
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brongchong@reddit
At a flight school I worked at, a guy got caught doing the same thing. We made him re-create a new logbook. Then he did it again a short time later. He was reported to the FSDO and the FAA revoked all of his Pilot licenses.
That was 30 years ago. I googled him last year and he now flies for Emirates.
JetJock60@reddit
Have had instances where two different individuals at two different schools tried to pull cr*p. First one, I was a new CFI who inherited a "professional" student from another instructor who moved on to airlines. He had a solo authorization from me, but took a plane on a cross country for four hours on a three hour booking (couldn't figure out how he got past scheduling a 3 hour block to begin with).
Second guy was authorized for solo x-c at a 141 school, but decided he didn't like our authorized routes so went off on his own. We found out when he handed in the fuel receipts from an airport that wasn't listed in our TCO. Both guys (it's always guys) were kicked out by the owner or Chief. And I've seen other occurrences happen to co-workers.
In my first 135 job, we had an independent CFI come to us as a trainee to haul checks at night, flew some right right seat in 310's to observe. He never finished. Our owner got a phone call from the FSDO when this guy came in for a logbook audit for his ATP, and saw tail numbers he recognized as belonging to our company. Was logging P-51 time in our Navajo's as well. He got busted right in the FSDO office.
Tasty_Impression_959@reddit
That problem has become a norm in many aspects of our society at all levels. It's quite disappointing when we discover that people to whom we have extended our trust and respect break it for dishonest advantages and shortcuts.
jimngo@reddit
This is anti-authority, one of the five hazardous attitudes. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to go away. This student shouldn't be flying. You're doing them a favor an possibly saving their life and life of passengers.
Record_Admirable@reddit
Easy there judge Judy.
jimngo@reddit
Do I take flying seriously? Yep, guilty.
kkcfi@reddit
Confront him and see what he has to say. Keep your school / chief in the loop. You never know what he'd say about you behind your back.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Yeah, he was the first person I told just in the sake of transparency. thankfully he has my back
kkcfi@reddit
What was his suggestion (Chief's) on how the school wants to deal with this? Students who do this do not realize the seriousness of something like this. If this is a young student, may be worthwhile explaining the ramifications. A good rap on the knuckles will be to make the student white-out all the tampered entries and redo those flights / times. If he is not willing then its adios time.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
lol the crazy part is that this is a retired military man. Chief pilot hasnt given me his plan yet, wanted to wait until i confirmed with his old school.
arcticslush@reddit
Yikes. I was expecting young kid who doesn't know better, but that's a bad look
kkcfi@reddit
That's nuts and pretty unfortunate. See what the Chief has to say.
LRJetCowboy@reddit
What do you perceive your role and liability being in all of this? Do you want to teach him a lesson? Do you want to make the industry a better place? Do you want to burn his ass for being a douche?
I think it’s really critical you establish what your end game is before proceeding any further. You’ve already involved another flight school in this so you have ‘loose ends’ that you can’t be sure won’t come back to haunt you at a later date. Think about knowingly allowing him to correct a forged logbook and there are people that know you did that…then something really bad happens. What will you say on the witness stand in front of a judge and jury?
I’ve always been a big believer in telling the truth and just taking my licks so it’s over. That would involve him making a voluntary disclosure to the FAA…have him call it an error, call it stupidity, beg for forgiveness. Then the monkey is off your back forever, it can’t come back on you ever. Just my opinion…he did this not you.
ltcterry@reddit
Why is a "voluntary disclosure to the FAA" required? A logbook is not a government document. OP's client has not lied on an application; there's no bogus information entered into IACRA. The logbook entry probably doesn't even meet the definition of a forgery. But it certainly is a lie and an attempt to cheat the system.
It's readily fixed with a good talking to and a whole lot of lost trust.
LRJetCowboy@reddit
You are partly right, but, if OP, as a CFI, is aware there was falsification and that flight time is later used to obtain a rating or certificate, then he is complicit. Why not just get the FSDO to accept that an error was made by disclosing it and be done with it? Perhaps it a belt and suspender approach but it will end it forever.
ltcterry@reddit
There has been no lie to the FAA. The FAA does not need to be involved in the resolution. The guy's a douche, no doubt. But it need not be escalated higher than it already is. If promptly remedied.
If the guy corrects the "error" in his logbook and accurate information goes into IACRA then no crime has been committed.
If the guy won't fix it, then it might be FSDO time. But, what FAR has he violated?
As I said in a different response here, the endorsement for the checkride says "I certify..." I'm not certifying anything I know has "issues." Not gonna be complicit in anything. Ever. Neither is OP I expect.
LRJetCowboy@reddit
Sure, ok.
eSUP80@reddit
I’m not a CFI but I’d make sure it wasn’t a mistake that he meant to correct a different flight. Tell him you’ve checked ADSB for a number of his flights and he has one chance to own up to it. See what he says. You might be able to nip this in the bud and put the fear of god in him now and it’s never an issue again.
If he tries to bullshit you tho- it’s curtains. Just one man’s opinion here.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Yeah, the unfortunate part is that there are a few flights that had these changes made.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
At that point it's a pattern. Honestly, I usually try to err on the side of positive reinforcement and not screwing somebody to the wall, but I feel like this might be worth a call to the local FSDO and ask for directions on how to proceed.
I had a similar situation, albeit the reverse, in a sense. Our students would always call in the Hobbs times to our desk (and write them into the logbook) as we would either help tie down and post flight the aircraft, or just head inside to prep the debrief room. In any case, this student was always asking me to knock off oral time (total - Hobbs = oral...gotta get paid) and I flat out refused since it was taking money out of my pocket. I eventually ended up buying a stopwatch specifically for this student. Somehow our 1.5-1.7 hour flights starting turning into 1.2-1.3 and the oral time went from usually around .5 to .8 or .9. I realized he must be shaving the Hobbs time on the call in, so I confirmed the book entries. Idiot was writing down the times he called in instead of the actual time, so then not only was he getting a "discount" on his total price, but the next student was getting dinged for more time than they flew. I let the chief pilot know and discussed seeing what the next 3 flights showed to remove any doubt that it's intentional. He agreed. Expelled the student the following week, and several hours worth of flight time were credited back to students that didn't actually fly it.
We don't want people with that type of attitude in our flight decks.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
Wow. A Cessna 172 has a flight deck!
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
The goal was to reach a real flight deck. If you're cheating that early, nobody wants you next to them in an emergency where 100s of lives are at stake.
Even if it isn't, do you think you'd willingly get in a 172 with your friend if you knew he was a bare minimum effort pilot?
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
I totally agree with that. I just thought calling it the flight deck was a bit pretentious which judging by the down votes bothered the pretentious ones.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
Contextually, I wasn't referring to the sweatbox as a flight deck. That's the only thing that bugged me about your response, but I generally save my downvotes for things that are dangerous, wildly stupid, or if a TSA post comes across my feed, especially if I was recently randomed.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
I’m long retired from the airlines but I still teach and mentor pilots on the TBM. I stress airline procedures because, if you look at most of the accidents, that type of discipline would have prevented most of them. The trouble is most guys go to commercial Sim operators who baby them thru and send them into the sky to create havoc.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
It all starts on day 1 of training. Whether you are flying just for fun or if you're intending to make a career out of it, I think everyone should be training with the intent of being a professional pilot.
Sure, you can goof off and relax if it's just a hobby, but training with disciplined intent should be the attitude at all times. It might be just you you kill, but there's always the chance that attitude gets someone else killed, too.
My buddy rapidly became the primary pilot on a Global not too long ago, and after one of the "recommended" new hires flew with him, they changed a lot of things internally. Primarily was no newbies in the big shit, but they created an actual worksheet for what is effectively OE completion, as opposed to just making sure the check boxes are full to conform with their insurance requirements. The new guy was lucky they were only on a short domestic flight, because it would have been really expensive getting him home otherwise.
wayofcain@reddit
It’s about normalizing inappropriate behavior. If it starts early it carries through to the career. But whatever dude you do you.
wayofcain@reddit
This right here. I’m a Captain on the 767 but did years of instructing even as a Chief. I can tell in the first few minutes when I have a pencil whipper FO. It will take you far and still be okay until you’re in a 737 with one main gear hanging out while departing busy LAX airspace with the autopilot failing. All of the sudden the shortcuts you took catch up with you.
__joel_t@reddit
That's why I always note the time before I start up.
slpater@reddit
Bring your evidence and ask them is all you can do. You can guide but if they wont listen then all you can do is drop the student. Talk with your chief pilot first and make that clear. Now that you know about it, you cannot just ignore it because that will reflect on you.
eSUP80@reddit
Sucky situation to deal with man. I just don’t get compromising your training to save a few hours in the air. Good luck
AcePilot01@reddit
People that do this, will always do it.
Granite_burner@reddit
Those that do, deserve their ass nailed to a tree.
AcePilot01@reddit
removed by reddit, wonder what dude said lmfao.
burnheartmusic@reddit
Nah he’s already done. This isn’t a second chance type of thing
ben_makes_stuff@reddit
That's my thought too. I'm a student and I would never ever do something like this - it's both clearly the wrong thing to do and leads to legal consequences.
I mean, aviation is serious business and those requirements seem like bare minimums that are written that way because pilots have died in IMC, at night, etc.
I figure If you can't even commit to doing standard training requirements the right way and feel the need to lie about it, you cannot be trusted and have absolutely no business flying for fun or professionally.
This person should be banned from ever getting a license or working in any position that is related to aviation. I bet they let him reapply in X number of years if it gets escalated to the FAA, but I think they should make an example out of him and make it permanent.
eSUP80@reddit
I can respect your viewpoint
rvr600@reddit
That's probably how I'd play this. Come in acting like you're trying to correct his honest mistakes, warn him of the consequences of you hadn't caught them now, and let him save face.
If he keeps lying, light his ass up.
saml01@reddit
You're right, but calling people out on BS is so much faster and easier. IMHO, Playing these games is exhausting.
Boring-Parsnip469@reddit
Yeah, I agree with this. You say you have a good relationship with him. Ask him about the discrepancies and help him understand the gravity of the situation.
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
You are NOT the logbook police. Unless the entry was done/altered under your signature its on the student, not you.
There is little educational value in a long XC other than getting the time in. So unless the student is deficient in some way, Not your monkeys, not your circus.
There are many things you *could* do, none of them are going to amount to anything. FSDO ain't gonna care, the school has zero liability, you are not liable, so whats the point? Oh noes! Someone cheated 3 hours of time.
ltcterry@reddit
I'm not certifying anything when I know it's wrong. I am indeed "the logbook police" in this case when I'm the recommending instructor.
keenly_disinterested@reddit
I would give him a chance to explain. It's possible he simply made an error. Set up a meeting with your student, you, and a witness, preferably another CFI. Tell him that falsifying a logbook entry is a serious issue, that you've checked ADS-B data and spoken with his previous flight school and ask him to explain the changed entry. It's usually pretty easy to tell when someone is bullshitting while they try to explain away a deliberate fraud.
flyingwithfish24@reddit
As a CFI if I found falsification in one of my students logbook I’d do what you’d do. Verify with the old school and if things dont match. I’d dump him as a student and dump em FAST…do it via email, text, etc etc.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
how would you go about voiding all your solo endorsements you have given him?
saml01@reddit
You wouldn't have too because they all included an expiration date. You included an expiration date right?
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Sure but it’s still got a month or so left on it
saml01@reddit
Eh. Wouldn't worry. Where's he gonna get a plane.
But if you are worried just ask to see his log book next time he comes in and just cross them out.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
There is an independent company we have rented from that just lets student pilots rent without any sort of checks or balances
saml01@reddit
That's wild. Good rates?
droptrack97@reddit
I always gave 30 days or less for this reason.
boredsoimredditing@reddit
If you drop him and he still has endorsements you gave him, then he goes to another flight school and starts over, then in a month or year or 3 crashes a plane and they investigate it, and you and your current employer are found to have known he knowingly falsified books for the purposes of obtaining ratings, and you all knew that…what’s your culpability in the FAA’s eyes? Genuinely asking because I don’t know.
But regardless if he was my student, and that was my school/employer, I’d be sending a message to the FSDO asking them that question to cover my ass. Also, a retired mil guy should know right from wrong, legal from illegal, etc.
LycomingO235@reddit
I had to do this once. With a red Sharpie marker I drew big Xs through all his endorsements and wrote "VOID" on them. Not my problem anymore.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
frankly maybe just next time you see him, say you need to see his logbook, cross it all out so it can’t be replaced and write “no longer valid” with the date or whatever, then explain to him why
TobyADev@reddit
I mean... the nice part of me would say "don't tell the F/CAA", but then if he's deliberately lying about hours, and let's say it's more than one entry, that's not good at all
Alternatively, keep the student on, not reporting them, then they have an accident (as if your attitude is "fuck it", you will) and you get beat by the authorities
Or perhaps if you two have a decently close relationship, have a very serious chat and see what they say...
Staffalopicus@reddit
General PSA here, but CFI’s should always call any new student’s prior CFI/school to confirm experience, if they’re still able to rent from the prior school and the circumstances of their departure. People are just too full of it to blindly trust what someone coming in off the street has to say about themselves.
Granite_burner@reddit
I changed instructor/school twice during my training. Neither of the new ones made such a call. OTOH in both cases I was open and aboveboard about the details and there was nothing suspicious involved. Both times the new instructor just dropped back and repeated pre-solo training before inking his endorsement in my logbook.
BulletTacos@reddit
As a current student with only 70 hours I say nail his ass to the wall. It’s complete bs if he can get away with this. Complete disrespect to every single student and pilot who did it right
Anonymous_Coward-500@reddit
If it was me I’d give him one chance to fess up and own it. If he doubles down, report him to the FSDO
DefiantPiccolo3128@reddit
As someone who has done interviews for multiple airlines, this would be a major red flag. I personally have caught entries that were at least questionable. It is not hard to catch, and interviewers see right through it. They will have a very difficult time getting hired anywhere.
Tomatomelonberry@reddit
You can suck, but you can’t lie. I would call local FSDO and report it straight. It’s a serious problem. I don’t think this student even deserves pilot seat. As a pilot he will screw up so many times and if he lies lies lies… it’s not gonna help anybody
CavalierRigg@reddit
Hey, I made a post a few months ago about a really, really similar situation and got some good advice if you want to DM me feel free
mass_marauder@reddit
Trust your gut and don’t be a nice guy about it, rather, be tactful and factual. Personally, I would never sign anything further in this persons logbook and would tell them to find another CFI as you have caught them falsifying their logbook. Wipe your hands and be done.
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
Sorry, but I'm sending this over to the FSDO to investigate. Falsification is criminal. This guy needs to be removed from the ranks of certificated pilots (yes a student pilot certificate is a certificate).
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
Considering I've been downvoted the OP's student must be following this Reddit thread.
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
I almost downvoted because I thought you personally were sending this to the FSDO
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
Edited to add "if I were you". As SGOTI, this thread has no where near enough information for the FSDO to be able to do any sort of investigation.
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
lol yeah and the chances it is fiction are not zero.
Top_Ad39@reddit
Sounds like the OP is taking care of this …….
hobbycollector@reddit
Yeah, he has blatantly falsified federal documents.
SerDuckOfPNW@reddit
It really depends on the student.
I’m not burning someone to the ground for a mistake if they are otherwise a really good student provided they owned up to it. OTOH, a pass in this would consume every bit of cred they had, and I’d be watching like a Hawk going forward.
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
Based on subsequent posts from the OP this doesn’t seem to be an oopsie. I don’t want my maintenance guys falsifying aircraft maintenance records and I don’t want my pilot falsifying aeronautical experience.
bhalter80@reddit
My initial thought was to make him show proficiency at those levels don't worry about what's in the logbook because even if he pencil whips his way to 5000 hours he'll get a CJO and immediately wash out if he doesn't have the skills/experience to back up the time.
Nature will take care of this....
Now that you know this isn't legit and it's a pattern you have an anti-authority, impulsive student you can't solo until those behaviors change. Your best option is to keep him as a student, work through every requirement as if he has a 0 time logbook especially night and sim inst since you can't prove any of his solo time, his XC time etc...
Obv he gets to keep the time accumulated to date so he won't really be taking his checkride at 40 hours because he "lost" his logbook but he will probably have to redo many of the aeronautical experience requirements to prove that they were ever done. Showing you the ADS-B track lines up with the date doesn't cut it for solo because he can't prove he was in the plane. Showing that he has a receipt from the day the sim inst was done doesn't cut it because there's no proof of what happened in the plane.
He's lied, now we're onto show me instead of trust but verify
toraai117@reddit
“Nature will take care of this”
Yeah when he skates through training then fumbles an emergency or landing in the real thing and gets people killed
bhalter80@reddit
That's where I'd expect him to get weeded out in training, because aeronautical experience is so broad that even with 1500 legit hours it's hard to assess what people can actually do that was just a swag at "you must be this tall"
Logical_Check2@reddit
3 hours of ground reference maneuvers?
HighVelocitySloth@reddit
Yeah that’s ridiculous. I am interested as to how this plays out. The OP needs to make decisions that protect him more than the student. This isn’t a student adding an extra .1 to his flights.
LycomingO235@reddit
I know of a couple of people that whipped their flight times and are now at regionals. It's infuriating.
These people are psychopaths, willing to lie and manipulate to conceal their behavior. An honest mistake is putting down an 8 hour flight instead of a 0.8 flight fat-fingering the data entry. Your student, at least according to your post, frequently lied about his flight time to advance their goals. I doubt "scaring them" will alter their behavior over the long term.
The system requires complete honestly. ATP holders by law must be "of good moral character" (61.153). I wouldn't bother giving the person a chance to correct if there were numerous, verified false entries. I'd report to FSDO and fuck them over. He knew what he was doing. Fuck him because he was willing to fuck us all over.
toraai117@reddit
I don’t know him personally, but someone I time-built with had a friend who pencil whipped 1,200 hours and nobody caught it.
Most of that time was somebody else flying around in his plane for him.
He is a regional captain now I believe.
Scary stuff
YKRed@reddit
Agreed. No "second chance" with something like this.
Double_Combination55@reddit
Your signature is gold. FAA would be very interested too. 👀
Rightrudder74@reddit
Personally my night lazy 8’s are equally as shitty as my daytime lazy 8’s.
Kemerd@reddit
I’d sit down with him. Explain this is unacceptable, and isn’t worth it.. and then sit down and do not take him on if he does not let you sit down and verify and validate each flight. He may not know he is breaking the law. It’s your duty as a CFI to put him on the right course, if at all this is possible, and he is not defensive about it.
Handag@reddit
There’s a time to call the authorities for emergency intervention and there’s a time to do a little more digging and try to handle this as a mentor.
They asked you to review their logbook. Doesn’t seem like they were trying to hide anything, and if they were they did an extremely shitty job. You haven’t signed them off for their checkride. IACRA hasn’t been submitted with false information.
In this situation, I would personally be a mentor and explain what you know and ask them to clarify the entries. I’ve been instructing for decades and most student logbooks are a mess. In many cases, the instructor is filling them out for the student for a good portion of their training. Could the student be pencil whipping their logbook? Sure. Could it be an honest mistake? Also sure. I am not going to turn someone into the FSDO unless I am absolutely certain they are purposely breaking the rules and ignoring my attempts to correct them.
There is a reason a lot of airlines ask questions like “A captain shows up hungover for your flight, what do you do?” If your answer is call 911 and the FSDO, you are going to have a bad time.
Take_the_Bridge@reddit
I would personally do no business with this person ever under any circumstances.
I am not a cfi. I ground out my hours in pipeline. So I never attached my name to anyone in any way other than as a student. However. My logbook is legit and I would not risk my reputation and standing in the aviation community and with the FAA by participating in anyway with someone fraudulently logging time. I would not wish for any of my career to be called into question.
I also would not wish to mix my legit log book entries with someone making clearly fraudulent ones.
Just some dudes on the inter webs opinion.
MyPilotInterview@reddit
Just to let you know this is the beginning of a good interview story!!!
21MPH21@reddit
There needs to be a paper trail on this stuff. You caught it, but if he's passed on to another school that doesn't catch it (and he gets better at his deceit) he could get away with it.
There needs to be a paper trail.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Pretty much agree, just curious what that looks like. Its obvious that within our own school we can flag his profile, add notes, put it in his file etc. But how would we go about attaching this to his logbook so that it travels with him?
21MPH21@reddit
You could write a note. Of course, he'll just white-out it or redo the entire logbook.
FAA needs a way to receive complaints from CFIs and let the student respond to them.
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
They do. It's called the safety hotline:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/aae/programs_services/faa_hotlines
You can submit the issue online. It will get sent to the FSDO to investigate.
21MPH21@reddit
Thank you
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
You may have found the real reason he switched flight schools to yours.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
This is why you never use a tail number of a plane with ADSB or at least pick one that actually flew the time you want to bullshit.
Rookies.
AcePilot01@reddit
Best to call that CFI perhaps.
Flat-Barracuda1268@reddit
I would dump him now. You caught him in a lie. Since he's still pre-PPL you are responsible for him and you need him off your ticket now. Put it in writing. Notify your chief pilot. If you're at a flight school, remove him.
His "mistakes" (really willful records falsification) is not your problem but it will be if you continue to fly with him after discovering it. Contact with the FSDO might be warranted.
IMO this is not a person we need as a pilot. Sounds harsh but we all share the sky. Do you want someone that has such blatant disregard up there with you? What other rules is he willing to break?
adh77@reddit
When in doubt, redo the training (or in his case, actually do the training). If he gives you any pushback, you’ll know where your relationship stands. Your longevity is not worth it. An instructor friend of mine had a student turned in to the faa by an examiner for ‘potentially falsifying records’. They both met with the faa and the inspector compared logbooks and records to see if they matched. They did and the faa said his logbook was legit, but also gave the student a lesson in ‘neat’ record keeping! Good luck.
_-Cleon-_@reddit
Man, after all this is over you're going to have one hell of a story to tell in future job interviews.
I can't imagine the thought process required to lie about something that can be easily discovered and will definitely be checked, especially when the consequences are severe enough that'll jeopardize your entire career right from the get-go.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Lol that is the one thing ive been thinking about as a positive for this! Will absolutely be one hell of a HR interview response to a tell me about a time question.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Fwiw, my examiner pulled up flight aware on my long xc and asked me about the flight.
ltcterry@reddit
Tell him it's time to do a logbook audit. He needs to review it in accordance with 61.109 himself so it's faster when he shows it to you.
Tell him:
"I've heard of people getting to the DPE with 'creativity' in their logbook and getting caught by the DPE, who is an FAA representative. Beforehand is a great time to catch any 'errors' that might be in a log and get everything legal. Sometimes CFIs accidentally put hours in the night column when that would have been impossible when the remarks say 'ground reference'."
The DPE is an FAA representative, though not the "FAA police." You'll look like shit to the DPE and the checkride won't get started.
I would not sign off anyone for a checkride unless I am confident the requirements are met.
Is the guy thinking he's on the path to the majors one day? Mention to him people caught lying in their logbooks get kicked out of indoc...
This is a great time to teach the term "stet" for "I accidentally marked this out, but it really is correct and the correction is what's incorrect.
Magoo6541@reddit
I might give him the opportunity to correct it without you directly saying you know his logbook has been falsified.
There are two reasons I wouldn’t write the student off completely: 1: there are people out there that might be trying to “mentor” this young man and have dropped hints or admitted outright to changing times in the logbooks here or there. Back in the day, it would be difficult to prove or find. Today, as you did, look at the ADSB logs. 2: people just make bad decisions at times. The guy may be going through something and this seemed like the best way out. If he can correct himself without being directly told you already know, to me it would show he is acknowledging his mistake and can move forward.
If he holds onto his lie, then I would cut ties and let him loose. I’d be tempted in putting in an entry to let whoever know that the logbook has been tampered with, although I don’t know if that’s really advisable or not.
Sit the student down and let him know that his logbook is throughly reviewed by the CFI, DPE, future CFIs and schools, and finally potential employers. When I went to my next school, I was sat down and every entry of my logbook was looked at and a guy sat with a calculator to ensure my times added up (I only had like 80 hours so not a huge undertaking). Even at NetJets, they have a logbook checking process that varied depending on which person you went to. Some were very thorough and some went quicker.
MRmayer41@reddit
Following
AntJo4@reddit
A mistake is a mistake, but a pattern is legal liability. If this isn’t a one off I would sit him down and have a hard conversation about integrity and stop training with him. YOUR reputation is on the line here as well remember.
Hokie_Pilot@reddit
“It was night time (in Japan)” - your student probably.
Kidding aside, I know it’s an awkward position but if the flight school confirms your suspicion, the path is pretty clear. This situation sucks but the student is the one who created it (if confirmed).
MrAflac9916@reddit
Yikes. Thats going to have to be a tough convo with him. Hes straight up breaking the law.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Yup, I understand that pencil whipping an extra 0.1 instrument time occurs fairly often, but this is pretty egregious and a DPE will be able to spot this from a mile away.
KrabbyPattyCereal@reddit
The DPE would give you an earful too if you sent the guy since he isn’t a pilot yet.
Emerghency@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I mean we are pretty much at this point beyond me even considering signing him off for anything else.
KrabbyPattyCereal@reddit
Good call.
pilotjlr@reddit
This is pretty bad. It sounds like you are double and triple checking already, before making an accusation.
I’d stop flying with him and void any solo endorsements. I’ve never seen a falsification this bad, but I think I’d want to see him put a strike though through any entry with any “corrections” in it. If he refused, I’d call the FSDO. I don’t take that lightly at all, but this is a pretty bad situation.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey everyone, 800+ TT CFII here. At this point, i am 99% certain one of my students is purposefully falsifying his previous logbook entries from his previous instructor in order to meet the requirements for the PPL checkride.
He sent me pictures of his logbook so that i could double check his requirements were met, and i found some suspicious entries. biggest example is a 3 hour flight that had the day time entry crossed out and swapped to night time, yet the CFI put in the notes that they were doing ground reference maneuvers.
Went and looked up the ADSB data for this flight, and sure enough, flight started at 7:30 AM.
This is an extremely awkward situation as I have a decently close relationship with this student and instructed with him independently for some time.
Today I am calling up his old school to cross my T's and dot my I's before I proceed, but essentially just looking for confirmation and second opinions before I pull the plug on this guy and make sure I do it in a smart manner that also covers my ass.
Anyone ever encounter this situation before or just have generic advice on the best way to proceed? Thanks in advance!
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