The classic Porsche 911 is overhyped and drives like shit, according to the man dedicated to perfecting it
Posted by FoMoCoNutjob@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 283 comments
Dachshand@reddit
F this rage bait!
feels6@reddit
đ striker cars no tittles available now! Best deals updated regularly on Telegram Join đ @strikervehicless and grab yours today before itâs gone!
Plastic_Willow734@reddit
Any sports car from pre 1990 is going to feel like a hunk of shit compared to an ND Miata or Ecoboost Mustang, that's not the point of old sports cars and that's the wrong comparison to make.
It's similar to people saying "Oh yeah but a Tesla Plaid is faster than an Aventador off the line!"
EZKTurbo@reddit
A huge part of the fun of old cars was being able to hot rod them. There was room for improvement over the factory configuration.
Nowadays that's totally lost. Sure you can put flashy wheels or a loud exhaust on your car. You can buy all sorts of dumb stuff in a kit that even someone from New Jersey can easily assemble. But anything with a turbo can simply get adjusted to make the maximum torque the drivetrain is rated for, with nothing more than an ECU reflash. The challenging and fun parts of hot rodding are completely gone.
Intelligent_Method32@reddit
You're giving a lot of credit to the people of New Jersey.
Melodic-Temporary113@reddit
âIâve got a â69 Chevy with a 396, fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floorâŚâ
GrumpyCatStevens@reddit
I don't think there's such a thing as "fuelie heads" for a 396. Chevrolet didn't put fuel injection on their big-blocks until probably the 1980's.
GoredonTheDestroyer@reddit
For the record:
Chevrolet did in fact offer fuel injection, on the C2 Corvette's 327 V8, until 1965 when it was replaced by the carbureted 396.
Antique-Dragonfly615@reddit
Small block fuelie, big block carb
GrumpyCatStevens@reddit
Yes, and I did know that already. I was merely pointing out The Boss's lack of knowledge of what Chevys offered fuel injection. :)
Also, the 396 (RPO L78) was introduced mid-year in the 1965 Corvette, but it was dropped in favor of two 4bbl 427's at the start of 1966. The L78 continued to be available in other Chevrolets, however, and interestingly in those applications it was rated at 375 hp. It was rated at 425 hp in the Corvette.
Melodic-Temporary113@reddit
Itâs the fuelie heads. Â They fit on a 396, because big block. Â But they do on a 350 stroked to 383, which is the original lyrics. Â Fuelie heads were the hot heads for the small block before the aftermarket started making a bunch of aluminum heads for the SBC.
Melodic-Temporary113@reddit
Itâs a line from a pretty famous Springsteen song. Â Who is from New Jersey. Â
And youâre right. Him getting it wrong feels pretty Jersey.
But actually the original lyrics were about a 32 ford with a 383, which was a 350 with a somewhat popular stroker kit. Â And that could have fuelie heads. Â Nobody knows why Bruce changed the lyrics. Â Maybe he just liked how 396 sounded.
franksandbeans911@reddit
Because Springsteen was the phony "workin' man" that couldn't hold a candle to Mellencamp? Nah too OT for this sub.
Melodic-Temporary113@reddit
Disagree, but yeah itâs OT.
epic_feel_time@reddit
Right, they canât even be trusted to pump their own gas
SLEEPER455@reddit
This comment wins the internet for today....
lockpickerkuroko@reddit
Jersey, fuckin' farmers.
gumol@reddit
are you complaining that modifying cars is... too easy?
Less-Mushroom@reddit
Its less about ease and more about making it your own and having something special. That's the "hobby" part.
Its not a positive or negative necessarily, but your car being yours and special and unique is a good feeling and that's gone when it's basically just a software update.
There are people who enjoy building PCs because they can make something better. If you could go to the store for $2k and buy literally the best PC available its no longer a hobby.
GrynaiTaip@reddit
So you are complaining that modifying modern cars is too easy. Hmm.
Less-Mushroom@reddit
No, really if anything I'm saying it's hard to modify cars because they're very good
You can walk into a BMW dealership and buy a 3 series that would do laps around someone's modded E46 right out of the box and you can get a tune.. that someone else will need to do because you probably don't have the right very expensive equipment.. that will make the car even better.
The odds of you improving that car (other than changing how it looks, maybe) in your garage with a few tools is very low. For some people that is the fun. Old cars were fun to modify because they were bad and even pretty basic improvements made them much better.
If anything you might make the car worse trying to modify it.
Also, I didn't say this was a positive or negative. I'm just telling you why the mod scene is changing and why some people like older cars.
franksandbeans911@reddit
/points at encrypted ECU's requiring piggyback hacks to override basic engine functions
Also a problem with some modern cars. Older cars, what ECU?
doggos4house2020@reddit
No, theyâre saying that everything is basically the same with modern cars. Every gti has an intake, downpipe, software, and coilovers now.
Itâs not necessarily a bad thing. However, it gets pretty tired going to car shows and seeing the same formula over and over again. Itâs much harder to innovate and make something unique with modern stuff.
max_power1000@reddit
This, and car forum culture has made it so that thereâs a right and wrong way to do it, and if you stray from the approved path, youâll get flamed and called an idiot for doing anything different.
GrynaiTaip@reddit
Is it harder, or is it that people don't care all that much about it because modern cars are good enough already and don't need much mods?
doggos4house2020@reddit
Itâs definitely harder to do anything besides the basic intake, down pipe, software formula.
The days of tinkering and finding endless combinations of OE and aftermarket parts like heads, cams, engines, transmissions, differentials etc. are basically over. This was the whole basis of hot rodding which is unfortunately disappearing.
Itâs an awesome time now for people that want to throw down cash and have a blisteringly fast and capable car. But, for people that like to plan, complete and troubleshoot a build, things have gotten a lot more difficult with modern vehicles.
GrynaiTaip@reddit
If tinkering is the goal, then you can still buy an old car and work on that, do an engine swap or something. Offroad community is generally quite lively, a lot of very custom rigs out there because nobody's making a good factory offroader.
-GenlyAI-@reddit
I'm not sure how old you are, but every decade from the late 60's had 90% of "gear heads" doing the same modifications to their cars. It might be intake/exhaust/tune today. It was intake/exhaust/cam before.
Also still a lot of people doing unique and fun things to LS & Coyote engines.
franksandbeans911@reddit
Back in the old days, racers couldn't just grab a crate engine and plug in some wires and go racing. They took average mom and pop cars then added hotter cams or different carburetors, like you were saying. The engines, if you go really far back, were dead simple and hard to "get wrong" as long as you understood the concepts that made it work. Super aggressive lumpy cam has all the hp for stoplight races but can't idle at a stop sign. My dad was one of the guys doing this stuff for kicks in a town of roughly 5500.
publicsausage@reddit
As someone who was out of the car game for a decade or so(bought a house so shelved the projects) I really noticed this. Even car people don't really work on their vehicles. Back in the day even the crappy auto zone Honda had a cold air intake, plug wire, and cut coils. In high school and college we were doing cheap garage engine rebuilds with parts from jegs or summit. I don't fault anyone, cars now make a bunch more power from the factory, but it's just a completely different hobby.
Evil-Bosse@reddit
I went to Malaysia for a small business trip, was overjoyed with their car customization culture. Like 20% of the cars had obvious work done. Compared to Sweden where it feels like maybe 2-3%.
franksandbeans911@reddit
I think there's some rando company that has built a ton of replicas 100% by hand, piece by piece, in Bali and Haggerty did an excellent little docu about them. Main reason they started was "dad" wanted something he couldn't buy or import (Balinese import laws are really bad, like super bad), so he said f it, I'm gonna build it if it kills me. Now he is building repros from scratch and from magazine photos, shop is so good at it they sell them for a ton of money because you can't own that model in Malaysia otherwise. Super fascinating video, I'd link it here if I could.
The best part is all the little pieces you don't think about, all the knobs and dials or the button to open the door with a key slot in it. They make those too, for each model.
josephrehall@reddit
Would love if you could dm that link
uglyugly1@reddit
That would depend on what the 'game' actually is.
Those of us who actually do work on our stuff drive older vehicles, because we understand that the auto industry as a whole went into the toilet long ago.
GrynaiTaip@reddit
People realised that this made the ride worse in every way, so they stopped.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
...and had the potential to hydrolock an engine. Ask me how I know :/
GrynaiTaip@reddit
How do you know?
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Many years ago, I used to own a 2002 Civic Si. I modded it by putting on a cold air intake. One winter, we had a very powerful storm here in Southern California. At the time, the house I lived at was in a canyon area, and the entrance to my driveway had a natural drainage dip before the driveway itself started. Because of that rainstorm, there was a ton of water flowing through that drainage. I was driving home from work, and I thought I could cross it just fine. I didn't realize just how much water there was, and I ended up hydrolocking my engine. I ended up getting a new, well technically used, engine in my car. But luckily I didn't have to pay for it, as my insurance covered the bill because of how I explained things ;)
Never again will I ever buy a cold air intake.
CommandersLog@reddit
How'd you explain things?
franksandbeans911@reddit
The cold air intake was actually labeled cold water intake from the manufacturer, you just had to mount it upside down into the fender well.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
That water somehow got into the engine through the stock air box/air filter.
SubterraneanAlien@reddit
If you're implying people became smarter I can assure you they have not
publicsausage@reddit
That's not very stance of you
EZKTurbo@reddit
That's what I'm saying. Back when I was younger I was grabbing bigger turbos from the junkyard for my Volvo 940 and the only way to make it work was to build your own exhaust from scratch, make your own resistor bypass to run different injectors, and scour forums for answers to all the unknowns.
publicsausage@reddit
Some core memories wandering you pull it yards looking for anything useful/interesting. They're basically not a thing now where I am.
19osemi@reddit
I mean you can totally rip out the engine of any old modern car and shove whatever you want into it and have a custom ecu and so on. Nothing is stopping you from doing it other than money. You can make your car into whatever you want now
CatProgrammer@reddit
I enjoy putting together a PC because at one point it was cheaper than prebuilts and I enjoy the process of assembly, but that's about it. Because you can just go and buy a top of the line prebuilt gaming rig if you wanted to, albeit never for just $2k. But you couldn't get the equivalent parts for just $2k either so that's irrelevant.Â
ArguablyTasty@reddit
It's not just that. People will build PC's because:
They enjoy the Lego aspect & the designing aspect
They want a specific look or size
Self expression in the aesthetic design
Modern "Stage [X]" car mods have stifled the design aspect, and how crammed &heavily wired modern cars are has made self expression in aesthetic design harder rather than easier
trykedog@reddit
EVERYTHING has become too easy. Doing hard things takes skill and effort. Two things we want to get the F away from.
EZKTurbo@reddit
Not really. I'm complaining that "car mods" these days only make your car look cool and the thing that actually adds power is a software update.
Jack-of-the-Shadows@reddit
Lol, we had "ricers" before up likely learned how to read...
SwissMargiela@reddit
Itâs easier and more difficult at the same time imo
Like easy as in modern turboâs cars can simply be flashed and have more boost and go faster.
More difficult in that cars are generally more complicated to work on now and thereâs just so much shit everywhere. Now itâs like every inch of the car is filled to the brim. I have to remove half my wifeâs dash to change the air filter like what the fuck
IsTheShibaInU@reddit
No, you're just bad at reading comprehension.
ArguablyTasty@reddit
I think it's more:
With everything being more crammed into the cars, theres more limits on what will fit, how to make things fit, etc.
The costs have gone way up
The above restrictions + the increase in corporatism in the modification aspect of cars has spiked how much is all pre-packaged in the "Stage [X]" kits, making builds more homogeneous & less creative
This is similar to things we've seen in other communities like the skateboarding community, where the part of the culture based around messing around & learning on your own has largely died out- it's mostly about the desired end result instead of the process.
This has lead to much less culture around modifying cars, and more around owning modified cars. It's like the difference between wanting to do something & wanting to have done something.
Last, and most importantly, I think what OP meant when they said
and what you interpreted it as might be 2 different things. Everything coming as "pre-packaged solutions" and cars having less space to play with has lead to self-expression within even the same mods. Things like wire tucks, or mixing & matching parts within the same part of an assembly for aesthetic reasons have been disappearing. When people can't make the engine bay as pretty overall, they resort to keeping it covered & only having the important parts stick out if anything. Then all the electronics make so much of the stripping parts away aspect of hot rodding more difficult- you just end up with exposed plastic ends & wires everywhere unless you really know what you're doing
juwyro@reddit
It's definitely easier than ever.
Users5252@reddit
Where did kit car culture go when we need it the most? Modern fwd drivetrains are ideal candidates for mid engine spaceframe chassis.
the_lamou@reddit
Hard disagree, and I say this as someone who's built cars from the 70s, 80s, and 90s all throughout the late 90s and early aughts (basically the end of the pre-digital era).
Old cars have shockingly low ceilings, for the most part. There are some exceptions, but even then it took so much to hit those exceptions that by the time you were done it was Ship of Theseus situation: if you replace basically all of the mechanical components, did you actually hot-rod something or did you just build a new car that kind of looks like an old car?
But if you were keeping it remotely true to the original? If you could get a 50% increase in power without paying the same that you paid for the car, you were doing great. Until the engine grenaded itself because nothing was designed to hold even modest increases in power, and mechanical tuning and controls were not precise enough to avoid catastrophic conditions.
This was especially true with many of the 80s/90s import hero cars. Sure, the Supra could make big power on the stock bottom end, but the 3000GT? Lolno. 300ZX? HAH! Eclipse? Integra Type R? MR2? NSX? 80s/90s Bimmers? No way. There's a reason that so many classic records just got completely demolished starting around 2015 or so. Because it turns out tuning and building modern cars is way easier, they have much higher potential, and all of the technology is so much more effective.
You can slap a tune on many cars and get giant power that's still entirely streetable. Cooling technology has finally caught up to turbo technology, and running 1 bar is not a big deal anymore (it was a big deal in the 90s). My 93 MR2 had a pretty hard cap at like ~300ish HP without major cutting and engine swap when I first had it, because it was just impossible to cool a big turbo 5SFE, and even the 3SGTE struggled to get much past 300-400, despite being designed for cooling a turbo. NA cars were even worse â if you weren't shelling out big money, you weren't getting any bonus power.
Old cars are full for a lot of reasons, but modern vehicles have so much more potential.
munche@reddit
As someone who owns a 60s, 90s, and modern car, this is spot on. The reality of mods on cars back in the day was you spent a ton of money for very little return. I got a bug up my ass to try to make my 60s car handle - Ship of Theseus is right. It'd cost 2-3x what the car cost and basically replace everything under it.
It's fun to romanticize doing expensive mods that didn't do much and having your car break all the time, but really the problem people are complaining about is you no longer have to shitboxify your car just to get decent power out of it.
the_lamou@reddit
Yup! My '79 prelude has about 70 HP. Or had, at one point, maybe, when it was brand new and not almost old enough to claim social security. To get it to even 100 would require either some kind of 100% fully custom forced induction with aftermarket fuel injection and engine management, or a giant carburetor and tens of thousands of dollars in custom metal fabrication to make a high-revving NA screamer that gets outclassed by a Nissan Versa and is a pain in the ass to drive.
I've done the math and it would actually be cheaper to swap in the entire drivetrain from a Model 3 Performance and and make a 510 HP AWD EV conversion than to try to get the original engine to break 115 HP. And that's including a donor Tesla.
MJOLNIRdragoon@reddit
Then upgrade the drivetrain. Your lacking imagination doesn't mean hotrodding is dead.
EZKTurbo@reddit
With what parts? If you have a FWD sedan that you want to beef up, there's only maybe 2 transmissions that are going to fit or work if you're lucky. There's no room for imagination, lol
MotorcycleCar@reddit
You can swap in different transmissions that were never intended for the vehicle and you can cut things to make them fit and fabricate brackets just like you always could.There's tons of room for imagination.
EZKTurbo@reddit
Yeah in RWD setups. Try that with a FWD. Lol
MotorcycleCar@reddit
In the planning phase of the process on one of my old cars.....Currently the project is on hold until I get bigger life issues sorted however soo......
EZKTurbo@reddit
I know what you're saying, and I also know from direct experience that it doesn't really work like that on FWD cars.
I've done that work on RWD cars, platforms that were old enough to be able to handle it without running into all sorts of electrical problems
JIMatRK@reddit
But the threshold for doing that kind of work is higher.
Used to be that you just buy "better" parts and install them. Boom, your car is now better. Stuff the average enthusiast could do on a weekend in their garage with tools and knowledge that were easily accessible.
Now you either are extremely limited in your options (as /u/EZKTurbo is describing) or you have to get into fab and tuning. And getting into fab and tuning requires resources and knowledge beyond the grasp of most home garage enthusiasts.
MarsRocks97@reddit
No, hot rodding is dead. Nowadays hot rodding is is putting in louder muffler or worse, straight piping it.
KyledKat@reddit
Until you upgrade the turbo/related equipment and push the parts to their breaking point. Nevermind the litany of suspension components too.
Hot rodding today just looks different than it did 40 years ago, especially if you throw emissions out the window.
-ZeroF56@reddit
Depends on who youâre asking I suppose - because figuring out how to map that ECU flash is the challenge someone is taking on.
And if you want to go further than that ECU flash, youâre going to need supporting mods well above a kit in New Jersey, and thatâs the hot rodding you speak of. Performance shops still exist doing far more than basic ECU tuning.
EZKTurbo@reddit
Well yeah there's always been speed shops for those with tens of thousands of dollars to spend.
Bassracerx@reddit
This is not necessarily a bad thing.
aerostatic9000@reddit
What he say fuck me for?
PabloIceCreamBar@reddit
Jersey catching strays
whittlingcanbefatal@reddit
I love driving my 1971 electrified 911. It now has air conditioning! But it still has hand crank windows and the original am/fm radio which I listen to podcasts on with a Bluetooth fm adapter.Â
Can-t-ban-me-lol@reddit
That's an amazing ride. I hope we get more electrified classics
Seven_Cuil_Sunday@reddit
be keen to learn more about that
whittlingcanbefatal@reddit
What would you like to know?
Bonerchill@reddit
I built literally dozens of 1969-1973 911s with air con, and they still had that wonderful, musical flat six.
NoAirBanding@reddit
But when replacing the failed engine costs the same an ND Miata, maybe alternative power could be interesting too (k-swap?)
Bonerchill@reddit
No, god no.
railbeast@reddit
The duality of man:
I say: god yes, harder!!!!
NoAirBanding@reddit
https://youtu.be/W9DQ-wJCPZU
đ
hells_cowbells@reddit
The answer, as always, is an LS swap.
LeanGroundQueef@reddit
But what about a 1989 Miata?
Captain_Alaska@reddit
The ND drives significantly better than an NA does, yes the NA is more raw but the ND is better in every ofher way, it cannot be understated how much suspension and chassis design has improved in the last 30-40 years.
iroll20s@reddit
I'd 100% rather have a lotus 7 or shelby cobra than either of those. There are some out there that got it right. Though only a few are attainable anymore through things like reproduction kits.
gaius49@reddit
Have the cobra - HARD agree.
gaius49@reddit
I DD vintage sports cars and have driven the ND and owned an S550 GT350. I find the vintage stuff to have immensely better feel and feedback.
fish94@reddit
My daily, c6/ls3/6 speed, is by all means a better car in every measurable parameter than my weekender, an e30 thats stroked/caged/gutted and makes a whopping 210whp. Both of my cars get the same amount of miles put on them per year despite only driving the e30 2 days out of the week. Old cars have a certain charm to them that modern ones cant possibly hope to replicate. Spec sheet racers are the worst type of people i can encounter.
blunt-but-true@reddit
LOL he tried to sneak eco boost mustang in there. Those are shit. Get that bad take out of here
jontss@reddit
My old 944 feels great besides being a bit slow.
Medical_Key_8777@reddit
indeed, a 944 makes any 911 of the same vintage feel absolutely prehistoric, and is objectively still fantastic to drive in every circumstance save stop light pulls
TRS2917@reddit
Shhhh, let him cook! Maybe the market will soften just a teeny tiny bit...
Ftpini@reddit
I drove a Model 3 performance for 4 years before I bought my Mustang GT. The 3 was faster, more comfortable, wildly cheaper to drive, and easier to drive fast and well. But Iâd still prefer my GT to it any day of the week, because those things are not why people buy sports cars. I wanted a vehicle that was loud, aggressive, and fun to drive. The Mustang has that in spades. I donât care that itâs more than a full second slower to 60 than my 3 was.
brianSIRENZ@reddit
Yet he's one of the main reasons I can't find an affordable air cooled Porsche. They used to be attainable 10 years ago.
-Racer-X@reddit
i mean they have outpaced their driving experience and became a cars&coffee / status symbol
is a 930 a 100k driving experience? is a 1964 with 130hp 80k?
issue with the revivals is they are millions, which in my opinion if you have 1 million theres better options there as well
generalistinterests@reddit
Used enthusiast vehicles should be considered collectors items like special Pokemon cards. A $10,000 paper card for a cartoon canât do what a computer can do. But thatâs not the point. If you want that thing you have to pay because itâs limited and demand exists.
-Racer-X@reddit
Or hear me out
Drive the fuck out of your car, youâre gonna die anyway
Thereâs more the life than what others think
generalistinterests@reddit
Where did I say smuggling to the contrary
-Racer-X@reddit
might have misinterprited "Â should be considered collectors items like special Pokemon cards"
generalistinterests@reddit
They have pricing of collectors items not that I think such items should never be used.
YetAnotherSegfault@reddit
Totally agree. 930 is as much a 100k car as a Rolex 5513 is a 15k watch.
Compared to similar priced modern counter parts spec wise they are basically hot garbage. But they are rare and appreciated by collectors.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Disagree- the experience demands the premium.
A Rolex 5513 feels no different on the wrist than a clone. Its value is in its authenticity.
A 930 feels much different than a modern 911 or a Ferrari 308 GTB.
generalistinterests@reddit
A Rolex is an objectively worse watch than my Apple Watch or even a $20 Casio. Itâs wire at timekeeping and has fewer functional features. But thatâs not the point. Itâs up to the buyer to decide what and why they want to buy.
max_power1000@reddit
The only truly "functional" watch is a dive watch, and anyone with money who is diving is doing it with a dive computer that costs a fraction of what their Submariner did while providing multiple orders of magnitude more functionality.
I'm saying this as An Omega Seamaster Planet Ocean owner as well - I just like the look of the watch. I'm toying with buying a Longines Hydroconquest soon too.
-Racer-X@reddit
Actually both are just artificial scarcity
Is the new gt3rs rare? Not even close
Is it a 400k without market manipulation, Iâd wager most likely not
350SBC@reddit
Thatâs the biggest factor. Iâve had 2 aircooled 911s, I had both of them before prices got crazy. Was it a fun driving experience at $15k? Absolutely, I loved it. Is it a good driving experience at like $80k? At that price point itâs a complete waste of money. That extra $65k just gets you a cars & coffee and Instagram flex, thatâs it.
These days I have a 987 Cayman S which, adjusted for inflation, is worth about what my aircooled 911s were and itâs a better car in literally every single way. Also if weâre talking older cars, I also have a turbo NA Miata which is also way better than my old 911s and cost a fraction the price.
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
I had a 914 in college and dreamed of getting a 911. In 2010 an aircooled 911 was, reasonable. Now? No. It is why I have a Mondial. I looked at a frankenstein 911 in pieces that wasn't running that was 20k. Needed paint, wrong motor, targa converted to cab, turbo flairs, and it sold 10 mins after i left.
Values are always interesting and frankly arbitrary. My favorite is a c5 z06 vs a v8 esprit. Found several forum posts when both were a few years old and the same price and it was a tossup. Now a nice z06 is 25k and a nice esprit can be over 100k. Cars are the same as they were. It is just people got a stiffy for the esprit. The same happened to aircooled 911's.
max_power1000@reddit
I bought my first S2000 in 2011 (2000 with 85k on the odo) and ran into a guy with a 964 that had similar mileage at a local grocery store parking lot about a year later and we talked for a bit. he told me he'd been considering an S2k for some time and would be willing to do a swap+$5k on my end.
Since this was before Singer was a household name and 964 prices shot through the roof, it would have been a screaming deal; growing up when I did (F&F1 came out my senior year of high school), the S2000 was enough of a halo car for me that I regrettably passed it up. It wasn't the last S2000 I owned either, I liked it enough that I eventually got an AP2 a few years later.
gimpwiz@reddit
The Esprit is far cooler than the C5, but the C5 is a much better car.
They made about 250,000 C5s. So they're never quite as cool as the limited or rare stuff.
Plus the Esprit is wedge shaped, and James Bond drove one to go skiing, and swam another one underwater; can't beat that ;)
solo118@reddit
These days you gotta be careful with the classics, as they are getting rarer and rarer. Back then people thrashed the air cooled 911s, if you watch hoovie garage one dude hacked off his roof to make a convertible, people did not care about these until they started appreciating.
TheRealPizza@reddit
Fully convinced the 987 is the best driving experience per dollar. But Iâm obviously biased. Also torn between going for a more GT car in the Vantage or a more raw car in the Elise next.
350SBC@reddit
Completely agree with you, Iâm absolutely in love with it. Best car Iâve ever owned, and seems to be a pretty well kept secret too. Most people either just assume they arenât reliable or are stuck with the whole âitâs not a 911â stigma, but theyâre really fantastic cars, mine has been rock solid and is just incredible to drive.
Dumb_Nuts@reddit
100%. I just moved and don't have space for my 987. Thought I'd just sell it and buy something different in a year or so.
Realized I'd just want another 987. Hard to find anything as reliable, fun and just flat out good to drive under $50k. So now I'm just looking for garage space.
TheRealPizza@reddit
I sold my 986 to try other cars, ended up in a 987 so I know the feeling lol
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Is a 930 a $100k driving experience? Yes, especially compared to what you get with a modern car for $100k, or what you get in the classic Ferrari world for $100k. Note that I am specifically talking about the pre-intercooled cars, which are sweeter to drive.
Is a 1965 with 130hp a $150k driving experience? Yes, especially compared to what you get with a modern car for $150k or what you get in the classic Ferrari world for $150k. I'd prefer a 1965-1968 with \~180hp for $150k, which is usually available.
Would it be better if they were cheaper? Yes. But they're both incredibly usable cars, comfortable GTs as well as admirable backroad bombers. I would have zero issue daily driving a classic 911; they're reliable and well-made cars.
Are there great options that are nearly as good while being significantly less expensive? Yes. See the Alfa 105 chassis, Lotus Elan/Europa, Alpine A110- the latter two being less capable of comfortable touring.
There aren't any modern cars that deliver the same blend of thrills and purity of tactile sensation as vintage cars, so they're ruled out.
gimpwiz@reddit
I can't even remotely believe that they're a $100k driving experience but it's all subjective so you do you I suppose.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Iâm biased, I understand that- mainly because it costs me so much to work on them.
But the 911 is also evergreen and itâs kinda hard to lose money on one if you buy a good example. Youâre not spending $100k+ unless youâre restoring one or keeping it forever.
gimpwiz@reddit
They were a fifth the price not that long ago; it can be hard without hindsight to see what's a bubble and what's simply asset price appreciation, but I've seen enough people claim that you can always resell something with no loss and then get burned that I'd be skeptical of that claim. Beyond which, now you're saying that it's actually a free driving experience because you can just resell it, rather than a $100k driving experience?
-Racer-X@reddit
They were literally in junk yards unwanted in the 2000s
Revisionist history is a hell of a thing
Thereâs a whole lot of fake scarcity around 911s
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Youâre sadly mistaken if you think the scarcity is fake. Iâve seen hundreds of 911s go through the doors of the shops Iâve worked for and thousands more at shows.
There are so many bad cars out there.
-Racer-X@reddit
They made half a million air cooled 911s
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
They made half a million total.
Of those, a relatively low percentage were produced from 1965 through 1976 model years. The cars werenât fully galvanized until after 1976, so many died from rust.
For example, there were 4,141 1967 911s but an average of more than 15,000 993s per year between 1994 and 1998 model years.
I donât care about anything post 1976. You can have âem all.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
They were a fifth of the price in 2008.
So were 240SXs and Corolla GT-S and peanut Corollas and Datsun 510s and square body Chevys.
Remember when good mechanics were $55/hour? I canât afford my retirement at $55/hour pay.
It takes me 4 hours to drive to LA to a good machine shop, and I pay him $180/hr shop rate. I have to ship my chrome, nickel, and cad plating, because otherwise it takes me an additional two hours. My zincâs 30 miles away, my powdercoater is 15.
Iâve been doing this for more than 20 years. Weâve bought 911s for $8k and $600k. $100k is $150k less than an excellent restoration and in five years itâll be $200k less.
inaccurateTempedesc@reddit
A $6500 Quattroporte on FB Marketplace is probably closer to being a $100k driving experience than a classic 911.
TheRealPizza@reddit
Youâre saying a 1965 911 is 5x as good a driving experience as an Elise? And itâs more tactile? Have you driven like, anything?
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
I donât care about the Elise wrt a vintage, tactile driving experience.
-Racer-X@reddit
I think heâs saying the exact opposite
I donât think Jeremy clarkson would call a 1964 911 with 130hp a fighter jet on wheels
kyldare@reddit
I actually daily drove a Sixties Porsche for about a year in the PNW before I sold it. Compared to the other classics I've owned and driven daily (E30 325is, E30 M3, E36 M3s, E36 328, Miatas, Evo IX, RX7, and more), it was BY FAR the worst. I've driven a TON of SWB and LWB 911s on and off the race track. I guess it depends on your perspective, but I can't ever wrap my mind around paying more than $100k for any of them, outside maybe a 2.7 RS or a special 964. Most of them have been through the absolute ringer in the last 50-60 years and they just don't drive very well.
They're reliable-enough, I suppose (the generator died on mine and left me stranded at midnight on a floating bridge in a rain storm, which was neat), but they're seriously compromised daily drivers.
The heaters are too weak to clear fog when you start driving, because you need to get some heat into the engine before you can get some heat into the cabin. That means you need to let the car warm up for a long time on cool mornings, which I rarely had time for. The wipers are antiquated; they just don't clear water at the frequency you need in a place where it rains a lot. Tire selection was awful for my car; this is a huge compromise for a DD.
The most damning thing: The fucking gearboxes suck. The 901 and 915 are absolute garbage to use on a daily basis. I had a 901 in my car, with the dogleg arrangement. What a balky piece of shit. Even the "good" ones I've driven shift far worse than they should for a car deep into the six figures.
I guess the steering was nice on my car? Handled well too.
But for $100k, you could get into an Alfa 105 with a good engine and a ton of chassis goodies instead of a basic-ass 911. Or you could build God's own Small-Block Ford 289 and drop it into a VERY nice Sixties Mustang, run rings around any air-cooled 911, and sound a helluva lot better while doing it.
Seems to me most 911 owners spend $100k because Instagram posers told them that was the move, rather than following any semblance of personal taste.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
I live in, and have only experienced, early 911s in Southern California. I donât care about the experience anywhere else unless Iâm talking to someone about buying the car.
We restored cars. I donât consider shitboxes to be indicative of the goodness of any platform, and cars that have been through the ringer donât count- IDGAF about how they drive at their worst and neither should you.
CN36s are great tires for the platform. Anything else isnât worth discussing unless you want CR6ZZs. If they donât work in the PNW, I donât care unless Iâm talking to someone about buying a car.
Good 901s arenât bad. We spent a lot of time dialing them in and rebuilt them in-house. Are they perfect? Nope, but I prefer them to the gated shifter in a 246.
I know a 105 is good. But a $130k 105 build doesnât maintain value and Iâm not wealthy; I canât afford to burn $50k+.
Iâve driven a bad Mustang and a decent Mustang and both had all the steering feel of Ivan Stewartâs Super Off Road.
ZaheerAlGhul@reddit
Is $100k 930 a better driving experience than a Lotus Emira?
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Never driven an Emira, but likely yes. Reasons: lighter, more tactile.
I donât live in an area with bad roads; I live in an area with spectacular roads. If I lived in Midland-Odessa, Texas, Iâd say both suck and a big-power American car would be a better driving experience. Then again, if I lived in Midland-Odessa, Iâd have painted the ceiling with my mind quite a few years ago.
-Racer-X@reddit
I mean this is largely my thought
C8 z06 Caterham Exeige Cayman Amg gt
-Racer-X@reddit
not to be a jerk but what about a modern gr86
more power, weighs less, engine in the correct location :)
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
The GR86 lacks tactility and is therefore stricken from contention.
Lawsoffire@reddit
I will forever be salty about what happened to 911 prices.
When i was a kid. I saw an episode of Wheeler Dealers where he picked up a rough but running aircooled 911 for 5000ÂŁ. Fixed it up and sold it for a bit more than that (The show could've probably made more money than they ever made of sale profits combined if they just sat on that 911 for 20 years). Back then i told myself that when i grew up I'll get myself one of those. And the more i approached adulthood, the more ridiculous the prices got. Every time i got into a better financial situation, Porches got even further. They even stopped mocking the 924/944s and those had their prices fly to the skies as well.
At this point I'm convinced that I need to turn to motorcycles to get the classic sports experience. Everything has gotten ridiculous.
-Racer-X@reddit
I think thereâs plenty of great value out there still
Just doesnât have a Porsche badge
caterham09@reddit
Yup. For a million dollars you can get a car that gives you a world class driving experience, 2 other cars that do the same, and then have a bunch of money left over
daredaki-sama@reddit
I donât think theyâre buying them for the world class driving experience. They can buy that too if they have that kind of money.
USCAV19D@reddit
Brother those prices are ancient. A first year 911 would be twice that price, and frankly so are most 930s.
Did I overpay for my 911SC? To some, sure. But I love my car, and Iâll never sell it. So itâs priceless.
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smokeey@reddit
A 930 turbo is absolutely a $100k driving experience. Bring a diaper and some ear plugs. My friend built one and it scares the shit out of everyone.
-Racer-X@reddit
âMy friend builtâ makes my point
dadmantalking@reddit
Having driven a 930 on track, and put it into a spin with the owner in the passenger seat, you don't know what you're talking about. The 930 will make you shit your pants not because of reading hp numbers (closer to 300 BTW) on a page, but because of the balance of the car and how that horsepower is delivered. Even on modern tires.
-Racer-X@reddit
a car being unpredictable on a track isnt impressive or a good thing
dadmantalking@reddit
Again, you continue to display your ignorance. A 930 is perfectly predictable, especially on track, but the skill required to drive it is on another level. You need to drive it like nothing else I've ever driven (including my 964) and keeping muscle memory for a different kind of car from taking over at the limit is what will absolutely fuck you over. Miatas are respectable cars and among the ones that I've owned none and driven non of them have been nearly as raw or visceral as a 930.
-Racer-X@reddit
i don't mean this to sound disrespectful but what skill
you're talking broadly
what driving dynamics outside of turbo lag (a negative) and being rear engine (which all 911s are) make it special. I have not driven one but plenty of people with much bettter rear ends (chris harris, matt farah) have
dadmantalking@reddit
The car requires that to maintain cornering grip you stay on the gas, aka never lift. This is true of all 911s, but especially of the torsion bar suspended cars (pre-90), the coil spring cars are far better behaved. Breaking into a corner will fuck you, but trail breaking is absolutely required. Additionally, at the limit you will spin (understeer isn't a thing, ever) coming in off throttle at speeds you can hold the corner on the throttle. All of this combined with the fact that in the 930 you need to make sure to keep the car on boost through every corner if you are at the limit, adjustments mid corner will fuck you. If you do fall out of boost mid corner you need to resign yourself to the fact that the corner is scuffed because coming back on boost will spin you into oblivion (this was my problem, turn 9 at Pacific Raceways). I got in maybe 6-7 laps before my spin, and was putting down what felt like respectable times, turns out I was 3-4 seconds of the car owner's time, my time in the passenger seat blew my fucking mind. The level of skill required to make that car get through a corner fast is on another level. I do okay in my car, but the amount of rewiring to make that car a natural experience is something I'm never going to get around to having.
smokeey@reddit
Its absolutely a well built restoration and running on proxes r888r tires. The 930t is just a terrifying experience.
ChamberofSarcasm@reddit
Yeah so he's basically talking up his own business. These cars are bad until you give them to me and I make them great.
Pitiful-Walrus5102@reddit
Meh, Iâve owned 3 air cooled porshe, including now a 964 rs. Have also owned numerous modern sports cars. Is my 992.2 gt3 a âbetterâ car? Sure. Is it more fun, not really
tubawhatever@reddit
Yeah, I'm the same way with my 190E Sportline. I've driven plenty of newer, faster cars. Have I found one I've had more fun in? Not really. There aren't many practical RWD sports sedans under 3000lbs. Turbos are cool and all but a lightweight car with a NA engine that has more top end than low end is something fun that can be driven at legal or not far past speeds. Of course the suspension was particularly advanced for the time so that helps, and the Sportline got shorter and stiffer springs, better shocks, better sway bars, faster steering with a smaller steering wheel and better seats than standard so it drives quite different to the normal 190E. It's part of why I actually own 2, converting one to a M111 4 cylinder which will give better balance and a decent bump in power without going crazy.
Pitiful-Walrus5102@reddit
Exactly. There is just something special about old lightweight analogy cars. Iâm a huge fan of light weight, manual transmission, and na motor.
In fact, one of the best cars Iâve ever driven was my friends lotus 111rs, the in that was recently featured on the smoking tire channel. Super fun car.
fuzzerino@reddit
I swapped an M2 Comp out for a 111R and I couldn't be happier. I just don't see the point in sports cars that feel composed and planted at way past 100mph, would rather have a blast at legal speeds, considering a lot of modern sports cars are lucky to see a trackday even once per year.
Pitiful-Walrus5102@reddit
Thatâs a great swap.
withoutapaddle@reddit
Yeah, we have 356A, and it's fun AF. Of course it's slow and handles poorly compared to a car 50+ years newer, but honestly, if you put modern tire widths and ultra-high-performance compound on it, it would at least handle amazingly (but kind of silly with less than 100hp).
Classic sports cars are fun at low speeds. That's what most people who just look at numbers on the internet and watch car videos don't really understand. Slow car fast is better than fast car slow. Unless you're on a track, you cannot push a modern sportscar to 9/10th, but you can do that with a classic on back country roads.
Pitiful-Walrus5102@reddit
Exactly. I have cup 2 tires on my 964 and it is really fun in the canyons. But Iâm not a pure speed guy. I like the sensation of speed more than the actually number. If I can feel fast at 60 or 70 mph, great
withoutapaddle@reddit
Yes. Totally agree. Just a super low car at 45mph can feel fast if you're on twisty roads.
El_Pollo_Del-Mar@reddit
People who think air cooled 911s are overhyped are missing the big picture. And I think 99% of internet punters who shit on them have never really experienced one.
Sort of like people who judge music based only on the vocals. I know people who seem to be completely incapable of listening to a song and having any opinion at all about the instrumental performances at all. Just last week this person told me they had been really into a particular song and listening to it a lot lately. We listened to it in the car together and after it was over, I asked him if he thought the piano was too loud - which it was. He had no recollection of a piano at all!!!!
Air cooled 911s are like that. Underpowered, weird ergonomics, crappy HVAC? Yep. Any other detractor you could throw at it probably works too.
But the sounds are fantastic, the smells are fantastic, the feel of the windshield RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE is awesome. You can rip around in it on public roads without being completely irresponsible.
Nothing digital about it. Lap times are irrelevant. And nothing like it will ever exist again.
bettywhitefleshlight@reddit
Having spent a lot of time around classic Porsches, restomods, brand new ones, and IMSA cars I refuse to believe anyone is honest about any of them actually sounding good.
I've stood by a GT3R on the dyno and it's an insane noise but then we'd get within range of a C6R at a track, feel the bass of the exhaust in your guts, and somebody mysteriously shits your pants.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
911 race engines typically don't sound great. They need muffling.
Here's a good-sounding 911: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR-l7e4kEkI
And here's a good-sounding V8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba8S_eiIeIQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbUNfWyZbQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtVF4-1xmY8 (this video sucks but the car made every hair on your body stand on end when it'd go by).
Chassis9110301138@reddit
Thatâs supposed to sound bad? https://youtu.be/HMadYY5JQmA?is=AS7fZz2VN2GRkajt Or this? https://youtu.be/zqi9bLX908U?is=KNwSQwYFNKm5fTvn
Lol, youâve completely lost it. The comments in this thread perfectly show how r/cars users have zero real experience and donât actually care about the joy of driving. Early 911s are some of the greatest driver's cars ever built and can be either tactile or fast.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
I donât know what your comment references- that RS is an example of good, not bad.
Loud 911s are the same as all other cars- quantity over quality. Give me a set of properly-sized headers with a single-tip sport muffler and Iâm happy.
Also, Iâve restored hundreds of 356s, 912s, and 911s. Early 911s are my favorite GTs. Hell, I have a folder in my files marked 9110301138 with pictures of that car for use as reference for ST builds.
Chassis9110301138@reddit
Instead of restoring these cars, you should spend some time behind the wheel of them. You donât need a comp-spec 911 to understand how good early 911s can be. A 2.0 S on the right tire size, or a 2.2 S, is a better-driving car than any 105-series Alfa ever built. But then again, what can you expect from a generation raised on Top Gear. How would you ever understand?
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Still confused. Iâm not really sure how much clearer it gets than âearly 911s are my favorite GTs.â
It seems youâre hell-bent on being right, even if we agree about the inherent goodness of the platform.
Chassis9110301138@reddit
So am I. Because the content of your comments doesnât magically change just because youâre Jo Siffert, a top-notch restorer of rare multi-million-dollar cars, or a nobody driving a Camry with no real-world experience and only a casual interest in old cars. If you actually had the experience you claim to have, you wouldnât be spending your time in this comment section discussing Alfas with someone who seriously asserts that a 2000s FWD Fiat-"Alfa" piece of junk drives better than an early 911. You would be sharing how good these long-hoods really are.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Iâm not an evangelist preaching the gospel of wealth generation just so someone can enjoy great cars.
The difference in enjoyment between a good 105-series Alfa Giulia Super (or Lotus Elan) and a long-hood 911 is not large enough for people of limited means. The Alfa or Lotus are great experiences, full of character and tactility, that should make any enthusiast happy, and those experiences are less than half the price. Iâm honestly not sure a long-hood 911 is a better back road experience than an Elan, anyway- a better all-rounder but heavier and less keen.
My clients are all millionaires and billionaires. My friends and coworkers arenât. The vast majority of the enthusiasts in this thread arenât. $100k is a lot of money for a toy, and I like to think Iâm somewhat of a realist.
Chassis9110301138@reddit
Being realistic doesnât mean distorting reality just because something is no longer accessible to the classic working man. An old 911 is an incredible driving experience, and that doesnât change just because these cars are now only accessible to rich assholes. A 2000s FWD Fiat with an Alfa badge is not a great experience -hell, not even a decent one. A 105-series Alfa or a Lotus Elan is a great experience, just like an old 911. A realistic approach would be to praise great driving experiences both in the sub- and 100k+ range, instead of contributing to this circlejerk of comments from the restomod guy and people with zero driving experience claiming that an old 911 drives like a pile of shit and only rich idiots trapped in their bubble would pay for it.
withoutapaddle@reddit
Can we not agree that what sounds good to one person might not to another? Like you can't fathom that people like different types of music? Exhaust note is no different.
hbs18@reddit
Personally I prefer the noise of an air cooled M64 over any V8. Something about the lumpy idle noise and how bassy and mechanical it sounds when driven appeals much more to me than the drama of a V8.
Then again, I also like the sound of inline 4 diesels and modern V6 F1 cars.
El_Pollo_Del-Mar@reddit
Different strokes for different folks. Some people just gotta hear a big ole V8. My dad had Corvettes when I was a kid. I used to have an obnoxiously modded '93 Mustang Cobra.
Both sound fine and good. But the 911 flat six howl is another thing. It just a preference.
jlivingood@reddit
The smell. So right.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Sure, but at this point something like an MR2 Spyder will give you 90% of what an old 911 SC offers for 1/10 the price.
El_Pollo_Del-Mar@reddit
No it fucking won't!! You can't hear the piano either!
Forget about the price. Just forget about that for a second...
The engine's not in the back, there's no cooling fan sound over the flat six howl behind you. There is no gearbox with a very tall 1st and 2nd that rewards you for...thinking!!!! And then rewards you again for timing that shift just right. There's no practicality of space behind and a decent frunk ahead.
MR2 Spyder will give you absolutely ZERO that an SC will. Ok fine. 1% It's a car. They're both cars. If you don't have an SC and you need a car, sure...it will do car.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
They're both small, nimble, underpowered sports cars.
Sure, the MR is... MR engined vs the 911's RR layout. They both have excellent steering, analog inputs, etc.
I count that as a distinct advantage for the MR2. The throttle is far more responsive as a result.
El_Pollo_Del-Mar@reddit
Rear vs mid is a GIANT difference. Power assisted steering vs a manual rack in the Sc is a GIANT difference. And even if you may be right that there's an "advantage" in the MR2 gearbox, you're proving my point.
They're completely different. Sushi and street tacos are both hand held, protein-features foods though absolutely nothing alike at all. Same thing here.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
I own an MR2 spyder and my aunt has an SC. I've driven both extensively and would consider them to be plenty comparable.
Both vehicles are 2 door, impractical, manual, sports cars intended for momentum driving. They're more similar than different IMO.
At low speeds yeah. At higher speeds I don't really notice a huge difference, and to be frank, I think a lot of the discussion on 'steering feel' is akin to astrology for car fans.
I also think a lot of the takes on 911's are post-hoc justification so that buyers don't feel bad about blowing $80K on an underwhelming vehicle.
bullyXLdisrespector@reddit
1) Buy large tungsten cube. Bolt it into the MR2 rear bumper for rear-engined dynamics. 2) Install large whining fan behind the driver. 3) Install oversized rear tires. 4) MR2 already has a frunk, criticism unclear. Bam, there's your SC experience as described.
El_Pollo_Del-Mar@reddit
Ridiculous. And also iron-clad proof that you've never been in an SC. Maybe an MR2 Spyder either.
withoutapaddle@reddit
As someone with an FC RX-7 and a 50's Porsche... No. It's not the same experience. Just like 90's cars seem simple to us now, older classics feel WAY more simple and pure/analog/connected than cars that are "only" 20-30 years old.
strongmanass@reddit
The counterpoint is that detractors specifically dislike those characteristics. I understand why people enjoy classic cars. But I'm not missing the point of them. The reasons other people like them are the same reasons I dislike them. All I have to do is imagine inverting my preferences and the appeal is obvious. But that doesn't make me enjoy the actual experience.
woowoo293@reddit
LOL, the aside about the song sounds like such a hipster conversation. And perfect for an automotive subreddit like this.
El_Pollo_Del-Mar@reddit
Only way I know to describe what the 911 is to those who havenât experienced it.
Dismal_Estate9829@reddit
I have a 3rd gen nova with all sorts of suspension goodies that drives and handles like a new car. Thatâs the fun of old carsâŚ.making them better.
junker90@reddit
His business is restomodding 964s, of course he's going to say that. Classic business strategy of creating a problem and selling the solution.
didimao0072000@reddit
Because it's true? The 930 Turbo only made 256 horsepower, but was called the âwidowmakerâ because of its heavy rear-engine weight bias, massive turbo lag followed by a huge boost, and oversteer. If 256 horsepower was enough to kill you, that says more about how bad the car was.
pleasedonotredeem@reddit
I went on a rally in my 1965 Alfa Giulia 1600 and there was a 930 on it as well who had a bit of a chip on his shoulder. I don't know if he was a terrible driver or if it was the 930, but I was absolutely leaving him behind out of sight on any of the narrow roads with curves. Even on the highway I would pull up next to him and I could see him downshift and floor it and the car would just not accelerate for a count of "one one thousand, two one thousand, three..oh, there it goes" and even then it just pulled away from my 95hp 950kg car, it didn't take off or launch in any dramatic fashion.
I came away pretty unimpressed. It did look cool in the photos though.
Previous_Platform718@reddit
With a curb weight of 2,668lbs, that's a higher power to weight ratio than a Dodge Challenger R/T from 2008.
In 1975.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
It was called the widowmaker because people are inadequately instructed how to operate motor vehicles.
The Corvair was an economy car called "unsafe at any speed."
They're incredibly easy cars to drive if you're not a hamfisted dullard. Genuinely.
Penguinho@reddit
They get a drive-by slandering in Adrian Newey's book (for those unaware, Newey's one of the most successful F1 designers ever, and as a designer also won the CART and IMSA GT titles, the 24 Hours of Daytona and Indy 500). He uses them as an example of a car that's "a nightmare, from a vehicle dynamics point of view."
Dredgeon@reddit
Porsches have always been intentionally unbalanced. It improves braking performance and rotation.
Own-Inflation8771@reddit
My 2003 civic is also unbalanced. More intentinally when I'm in it. Doesn't do shit for braking, far as I can tell.
Dredgeon@reddit
When braking weight of the car shifts forward with a rear biased balance the weight remains more centered between the wheels and gives more total grip.
willtel76@reddit
That power level was only for the early cars in the first few years of production with the 3.0 liter. After 1978 they were 3.3 liter and power levels went up. They are also fairly restricted from the factory and easy to uncork with very few modifications. My own car made 380 to the tires and in a 2800 lb car it is entertaining.
PanadaTM@reddit
Any car with 250 HP from that era was extremely dangerous. They all had shit tires. Put it on new 200 wear tires and it becomes boring.
smokeey@reddit
No it does not. Sauce. On proxes r888r. Car dynos at 271whp. Fucking terrifying.
Trendiggity@reddit
Reminds me of the Japanese superbike race from the mid 70s onward. Kenny Roberts was winning races on spaghetti sized fork tubes that were smaller than my mountain bike and bias ply tires. Engine tech leaped far ahead of suspension and handling in that era and didn't really catch up until the mid 80s
didimao0072000@reddit
sure bud, how many of them were called the Widowmaker?
sugarfreeeyecandy@reddit
Only one so far as I know and that was because if the driver lifted his foot mid-corner, he/she stood a good chance of unrecoverable oversteer.
gumol@reddit
isn't that the point?
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Despite me not being careful to hide who I am with this account, I'm just going to say: what he says needs more context, because in the context we're given, it sounds a bit silly. I am completely smitten with early 911s and always will be; after more than two decades restoring cars and the majority restoring and restomodding Porsches, I've enough seat time in them to love them for their incredible purity of tactile sensation.
First, he started with a Mini and made it worse to drive, although faster. Then he started racing, which he was apparently quite good at until illness befell him- certainly not something I'd wish on someone with talent.
To say "it drives like a broken bone" or "a Golf drives better" is stupid. I don't know what a broken bone drives like, so I'm not sure what's meant by that, but a Golf drives better? Really? The only engaging Golfs are also old, floppy cars- the newer cars are harsh-riding and insulated, lacking feel.
An old (1965-1976) 911 is feelsome through all the control surfaces; the steering isn't assisted, the brakes aren't assisted, the clutch isn't assisted. Everything speaks to the driver. Can you feel the chassis flex? Yes. Does it matter to enjoyment of the thing as something that feels like it lives and breathes? Not at all. You can drive the car with fingertips and toes, can slide it with little provocation and bring it back with equally small drama. It's capable of great speed on back roads, but most of that is compliance and small size rather than ultimate grip and power.
"The rear axle of a 964 is from 1932?" The rear suspension design? Yeah, it's a semi-trailing arm setup, nothing too fancy. But it's not something that you don't "feel like driving 1000km in"- I've driven 1000km in a day in 911s from 1970 to 1997. The 964 was a step up from the earlier suspension, with reduced dynamic toe-out. It's not multi-link, but it's not like there isn't an extensive body of knowledge about how to make semi-trailing arms work as well as they can within their kinematic limitations.
He says he's fond of Lotus and then lists a bunch of semi-modern cars. Ah, there's the rub- he's not a classic car guy. I'm fond of Lotus too... but I'd be listing the Elan and Europa instead of the Elise and 340R.
FoMoCoNutjob@reddit (OP)
But none of your statements refute his claim that they handle like shit, drive poorly, and require a lot of work to handle well?
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
What does âhandle like shitâ mean?
Shallow_wanderer@reddit
Honestly love that he's saying this lmao
Genuinely sick of people referring to Porsche as a "poor man's sports car" when it absolutely is so far removed from that, in some cases it's actually cheaper to buy a damn Lambo or Ferrari
Doctah_Whoopass@reddit
At this point like half of the remaining classic 911s are going to be restomodded
Few_Judge1188@reddit
How else is he to drum up more work ? This will not go well for him , heâs biting the hand that feeds him .
PM-ME-YOUR-SUBARU@reddit
As a younger car guy I've always had a hard time giving a single shit about 911s because boomers have circlejerked them into oblivion, skyrocketing their pricing so none of them are even in the realm of affordability. Just another Pebble Beach queen car that I'll never own or even see because everyone is too busy worrying about their investment in it to even drive the damn thing. I'll stick with my shitty VVT Miata and get 80% of the fun for 5% of the price, oh no I won't be able to brag about my special blue stitching to other Porsche weenies at cars and coffee.
DjImagin@reddit
When you knew your abilities with grip was all that was saving you.
highrisedrifter@reddit
There was a reason why the 930 was called the 'Widowmaker'.
I still had one though.
tronaldrumptochina@reddit
what if the fact that it could actively kill me if I donât drive it well is an appeal
Trackrat14eight@reddit
It was supposed to try and kill you. So after driving it and learning that and then going to leman/daytona 24/sebring or any of the races using the 911 (especially the group 5 or camel gt series) youâd watch these guys wrestle a 700hp widow maker in the wet at night with no track lighting and make you really respect whatâs happening.
Iâve been to track days and rode along in more recent 911âs and the electric aids really make the thing handle so well thatâs itâs boring and not really eccentric anymore. Went for a ride in a â72 911 around the same track and that literally scared the shit out of me.
generalistinterests@reddit
Best driverâs 911 is 987 and itâs not even close. Hydraulic steering, proper cooling, powerful, NA, great manual or PDK. After this? Numb and disconnected. Before this? Archaic or unreliable.
Training-Expert5598@reddit
Sure. And a 90s Fox body 5.0 is shit compared to a new Dark Horse, but I'd still rather have it. Nostalgia is a sumbitch.
snowaston@reddit
Because he's is in car sales! What else would he say.
franksandbeans911@reddit
What I'd need to do, to make a bad take seem like an honest opinion, is drive some of its contemporaries on the street then on the track, to see if there was just hype or true magic in the 911. If it was indeed a best-of-breed car among its peers, and that reputation held water through the decades moving forward, I'd eat my hat.
Then again the UK has had a love affair with Ford for generations, producing Cosworth and some other legendary shops, so maybe a "view askew" has room to be wrong over there on Airstrip One.
nerdpox@reddit
Saw one of the Kalmar Canepa restos IRL at Canepa. Absolutely fantastic
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
Pretty much any Porsche is overhyped, just like a goddamn Rolex.
Drive an Alfa Romeo Giulia/4c/Brera/RZ/33/Spider v6/GTV6 and you will see what a truly driving experience is like.
GoldenState15@reddit
Redditor that's never driven a modern porsche thinks they're worse than his fwd alfa. Hmmm
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
Oh, buddy, I've driven. Its better in max speed and acceleration, worst in every other single aspect.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
The GTV6 is a worse car because of the V6. It feels heavy in the nose.
But my god, the noise. It's almost good enough to forgive the weight.
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
Only one, it was a red targa, from the late 80s, 3.5 boxer I think, I'm not sure.
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Late â80s wouldâve been a 3.2 with Motronic. Good engine, pulls from low RPM, but a bit dull compared to the earlier engines. I never got along well with targas or convertibles, Iâm a fixed roof guy.
Give me a lightweight Giulia saloon with a high-compression bialbero and Iâm a happy man.
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
You seem to really know something about the subject. Very interesting. If you could choose a car as the better you have ever touched or driven, which one would it be?
SimplifyAddLightness@reddit
Impossible to pick just one, but the car that would be in my garage over all others would be a Giulia Super, Weber carbs, Alfaholics lightweight bits, 14x6s wrapped in Pirelli CN36s, good ground clearance, good suspension travel. Itâd probably be at the $130k mark all-in but Iâd take it all over the States.
dc1999@reddit
You're 100% right and will get down-voted into oblivion.
PRSArchon@reddit
It's insane to pretend any FWD alfa is better than a Porsche 911.
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
I see tou drive an Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, which is better than 99% Porsches we see on the road.
I drive an Alfa Romeo Spider 939, and even though it is heavy and not seen as a real Alfa, Its a lot better than every Porsche in its segment, in confort, build quality, looks, consumption, reliability, maintenance costs.
The good thing is that we drive something different and exclusive. A Porsche nowadays is just another Porsche, because everyone buys the same.
FoMoCoNutjob@reddit (OP)
Time to take your pills, and thatâs coming from the guy who shared this interview.
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
No pills at all, get inside an Alfa Brera with the new seats, and a Porsche from the same price range, and it can even be a younger car. The Porsche build quality and interior feels like a goddamn Dacia compared to Brera.
I've been thinking of buying one but I dont drive like a crazy here in Portugal, and 2 minutes after sitting in a Porsche Cayman, the decision to buy the Brera Spider (Spider 939) was done. Cheaper, more confortable, better build quality, driver-focused interior, exclusivity, better fuel economy, more space, more exclusive, better design. The only down side compared to Porsche is its acceleration and speed, but once again, its a Gran Touring with sports car looks, rather than a sports car itself.
16 years later, the only thing I had to do in my Alfa Spider was to replace a 50 euro gear in the eletric soft top, and use some product in side passenger mirror because it was not going up.
I mean even Top Gear presentators gave their testimony on how they would still choose a heavy car like that when compared to every other coupe/roadster in similar price range.
Porencephaly@reddit
The Porsche will probably start though đ
agray20938@reddit
I have obvious bias but most 996's and even 997's (if you don't mind the interior) are underhyped for the most part. Especially the Turbos. Among all of them only the GT cars have gotten any real hype over the years.
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
I cannot really agree, at least here where I live and in Europe in general. The idea about Porsche is simple. Give me basically any Porsche model and I can give you competitors that will beat the Porsche in every aspect. There is always a Porsche competitor (cheaper a lot of times) that will beat the Porsche in a lot of its important qualities.
agray20938@reddit
Out of curiosity, what competitor would you think beats a 996 Turbo or GT3 in every aspect?
BournM@reddit
Ah yes, only Alfas are a driving experience and especially the Brera lol
Kamekona_Camarao@reddit
Quite better car than any Porsche in the same price category, simply isnt a sports but rather a Grand Touring with better design than any Porsche.
Jtli@reddit
They drive kinda shitty but I feel like thatâs the appeal. Balancing the weight so that you can make the car do things.
Modern cars 100% drive better and are much forgiving, which I feel like is why there is an appeal for the crappy driving experience of old cars that are just fun
Medical_Key_8777@reddit
indeed, a 944 makes any 911 of the same vintage feel absolutely prehistoric, and is objectively still fantastic to drive in every circumstance save stop light pulls
ucancallmevicky@reddit
my 993 still makes me smile ear to ear every time I take it our for a spin. Would a modern car do some shit better? Sure. Would it be more fun? not for me
Fishman76092@reddit
I didnât read the article but Iâve driven a lot of 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s 356, 912, and 911s (worked at a dealer years ago) and I can confirm the driving experience is overhyped. They got much better with the 964 and jumped light years ahead with the 993.
Dyep1@reddit
What a dork, i bet heâs gonna ruin it with hybrid crap
cuteman@reddit
classic anything is going to be rough compared to more refined decades newer comparisons.
I remember when that also meant possibly not having power steering.
For porche that was like 1989/1990 so not that long ago.
How long would you have to go back in time before a Miata or even a Toyota Camry could win actual race car races?
It's kind of cool but classic cars are an affair of the heart because "better" can be subjective
sleepyguy007@reddit
people don't buy an old car because its better than a new one. they buy it because they can afford that car now, that they dreamed of in their youth. or they had driven it before or owned it before and want to feel that young again. no matter how much worse say a 1980s 911 was compared to a new 992 one its the one in their dreams. its why cars that are 30 years old that was the dream of a one time 20 year old, peak in value when that guy is 50 and wants to feel that time again.
I once owned a 2001 model year altima in college. If i had a lot of parking space, i'd find a good condition one just to be 20 again. I'd overpay for it It'd be a very mediocre if not terrible car , but it was my mediocre / terrible car.
Quaiche@reddit
The fun factor though.
rasmusdf@reddit
Well, isn't the imperfection part of the point?
DookieMcDookface@reddit
Heâs not wrong
costafilh0@reddit
100% agree. It needs A LOT of work to become something actually good. And it never gets amazing because it is not mid engine.
I would still get a widebody 1989 Targa just because it looks beautiful! And restomod the shit out of it, while keeping the beautiful exterior design 100% original.Â
echtav@reddit
This thread is full of dudes that bought into the hype and overpaid for retro Porsches for the âdriving experienceâ
IDPTheory@reddit
Boxster always drove much much better.
asad137@reddit
Boxster didn't exist when the air-cooled Porsches being discussed in the article were sold.
furrynoy96@reddit
Old car drives like crap, what a surprise
EatSleepJeep@reddit
Or "Old car drives like old car, and some people find pleasure interacting with imperfect technology."
ChrisPnCrunchy@reddit
Theyâre literal death traps trying to kill her owners
Iâm convinced the viper death trap jerk exists solely to protect air cooled Porsche owner feelings
Tushroom@reddit
I mean, donât lift mid corner and the problem doesnât exist. Itâs a skill issue.
garethashenden@reddit
The issue is that sometimes you do need to lift mid corner. Maybe not on a track, but if youâre on a road and go around a corner and find a tractor in the middle of the road you need to lift!
Tushroom@reddit
So then leave room for you to lift when youâre going around blind corners? Thatâs a skill issue.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
This is akin to a /r/carscirclejerk comment. Naturally aspirated air cooled 911s arenât very hairy to drive at all.
SergeantBacon101@reddit
Throw modern tires on them and they are fine, if youâre going to hustle any car without TCS or ABS youâll have to be a competent driver, especially one with a lot of torque/horsepower like a viper - most air cooled 911s have less than 250 hp and a lot less than 210Â
quiksi@reddit
Theyâre not fast in the straights or the corners but theyâre tons of fun in that âold carâ way. I certainly donât think theyâre worth anywhere near todayâs prices.
RazerMackham@reddit
Kalmar is kinda a weirdo and his cars are slapped together. I saw one up close at The Quail and it left a lot to be desired.
mazafakka@reddit
So a guy who runs a restomod business says the original car wasnât as good as people say? Let me guess, if you pay him enough money, itâll live up to the hype?
Carvair-98@reddit
I know right? Anyone who reads this should immediately think to themselves "I wonder if this guy has an incentive to say such things đ"
Like, I'm sure there's a truth to older cars not driving as well as they could or as remembered, hence why people like to badger the C1 Corvette. But I'd rather make that determination myself rather than blindly follow insults from a person who has a lot to gain off that.
Good_Air_7192@reddit
Man who sells modified car says base car is shit.
Negative_Acadia6554@reddit
Marketing disguise as an article. Itâs a convenient narrative. Undermine the original product just enough to justify why it needs your version to be âfixed.â
agray20938@reddit
Fixed, for half $500k and not a penny less.
Dopplegangr1@reddit
I would rather have an interesting car than a "good" one
EloeOmoe@reddit
If you think classic 911's are overhyped and drive like shit, just wait until you drive a Countach.
Sad-Anteater-2908@reddit
Old cars drive like shit.
parker2020@reddit
A stock 964 is pretty ass not gonna lieâŚ
Saki-Sun@reddit
Thats a shit source..
parker2020@reddit
I drove stock 964 before I got mine. As a baseline lol. They have huge potential but yeah stock they feel eh
Saki-Sun@reddit
Lolz sorry. I had a total brain fart and thought you ment a Corvette. And here I am waffling on about a 1970s type 3...
I have dreams about old Porsches, but just can't justify one.
parker2020@reddit
Carrera 2 - 2 wheel drive. Gotcha all good!!
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Odd that so many comments are acting as if this sub hasn't praised air-cooled 911's for years as if they're the second coming of Christ.
Personally I've found everything Porsche makes to be underwhelming for the price, even the GT cars. There's a clear confirmation bias among auto journalists driven by some weird need to keep the P car hype-train going.
The moment you hop in one, it's clear that most of their cars are "VAG corporate product with some extra polish and power". I pretty much ignore youtubers at this point after they all pretended that the Macan isn't just a tarted-up Q5, not to mention acting like turning the wheel of a GT3 produces instantaneous orgasm.
res_ipsa_locketer@reddit
âThe car you bought for too much money sucks actually. Here, pay me some more and Iâll tell you itâs good now. Authoritativelyâ
business model as old as time
ArcticBP@reddit
The actual headline: âThe classic Porsche 911 is overhyped, according to the man dedicated to perfecting itâ
FoMoCoNutjob@reddit (OP)
sky04@reddit
What a load of bullshit. Typical privileged asshole talk. I can take that 911 off of him, let him drive the golf instead.
Dutch_Vegetable@reddit
Thatâs correct. I had a 2.7 Carrera, a 3.0 SC and a 964. Theyâre beautiful and thatâs it.
Segguseeker@reddit
This man just became Jerry Seinfeld's n.1 enemy.
Makeitquick666@reddit
new cars that were made recently using recent technology are better than ones that were made 50 odd years ago using 50 year old tech, not to mention the 50 years' worth of driving on top of that.
You tell me what is going to be better
disgruntledempanada@reddit
"If I errantly touch any of the inputs of this car while it's moving and disturb them 1mm in the wrong direction, I am going to die." is a shortcut to driver engagement.
generalright@reddit
Misses the point, people love to capture nostalgia and maintain things that would otherwise die. Itâs human nature, like tending to a garden. When you have means there is some deep satisfaction from restoring an older car.