In case you haven't seen this triple overtake by New Zealand at SailGP
Posted by Fast_Risk_2580@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 146 comments
Posted by Fast_Risk_2580@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 146 comments
stblack@reddit
Brain-dead directors who cut to random crowd shots at absolutely the worst times during sporting events.
Keyed_@reddit
Must be using the f1 director
awayheflies@reddit
Or the same ones from Nasa Artemis II stream
GayRacoon69@reddit
Can’t believe they showed some old people on their phones instead of the boosters separating
SweetSeaCaramel@reddit
And the laggy 3d animation? What a heartache to watch with a kid.
No_Indication9630@reddit
The good news is the replays are awesome.
groshreez@reddit
Shirley someone was cursing, on one of those boats. Fine them!
4kidsinatrenchcoat@reddit
Not enough zoom on the gfs
mahdroo@reddit
THE most important thing is not accuracy, it is telling the audience how to feel. If the audience knows how to feel, they will forgive any breakdown in a narrative making sense.
wjruffing@reddit
[Queue the laugh track]
kiwean@reddit
Cue
mahdroo@reddit
Coo’
Holgzac6@reddit
Gas Gas Gas, I'm gonna step on the gas!
LinguoBuxo@reddit
................Can they do this at Hormuz?
jonashaase@reddit
Not sure foiling oiltankers are such a great idea in general
MerijnZ1@reddit
"foiling" warships exist. Obviously they don't pull completely out of the water but just a tiny amount of lift to reduce wetted area, gives about 15% efficiency increase. I assume we'll see tankers with some form of foils within a decade or so
AndyLorentz@reddit
The Pegasus-class disagrees
MerijnZ1@reddit
Lol yeah fair I forgot those mofos existed. Seems like an absolute hazard to work in though
AndyLorentz@reddit
Well, they only built 6, and were cancelled due to reliability and expense concerns (48 kn at 1000 gallons per hour, lol)
BlacksmithNZ@reddit
Seems like they just cruise on diesel at 12 knots with the hull in the water and only when they need to get up and go, they fire up the gasturbine - all 18,000 SHP of it
48 knots, they will outrun almost ships, but still not fast enough if the bad guns are cheating and using aircraft
ziper1221@reddit
No, we won't. Lift to drag is all about efficiency. A displacement vessel has L/D ratios much higher than hydrofoils.
Speed is generally not that important in sea cargo. If you want it there fast, you fly it. Cargo ships have actually started going slower recently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_steaming
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
MerijnZ1@reddit
neutral-labs@reddit
Well, they surely would be harder to hit with a sea drone while they're up on the foils, so there's that.
PatchesMaps@reddit
But think of the profits!
-Some big oil CTO somewhere probably.
wjruffing@reddit
With large enough rocket engines and supercavitation, why not. Will that enable them to outrun a missile? No.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
And thats why foiling should stay at sailGP
freewaytrees@reddit
For the uninformed - why?
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
It is controversial opinion, but this is not what traditional sailing is. In foiling racing all you need to do is to stay on foil. In some cases it is more important to stay on foils than progress towards goal. In traditional yacht race NZ would have lost by major margin, they failed in race. But because how foils work they got good pressure and got lifted on foils. Teams that had sailed better got wind later and did not have time to pop up on foils to sail to goal before NZ passed them.
Tdlr. foiling sailing has bad habit of sometimes rewarding bad sailing.
bobalou2you@reddit
It is however the sport every boat out there chose to participate in. They can all take their bat and ball and go home if they do not want to play!
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Yes, but sadly some people think that every class should foil now. They seep trough and replace other classes.
jk-9k@reddit
You're entirely correct not every class should be foiling.
But AC may not be the best example as AC is essentially open class until the rules are agreed to by the holder and challenger of record
UnkyjayJ@reddit
surely its good sailing but simply a different kind of vessel. you wouldn't captain a mono hull like you would a catamaran.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Even with multi you sail towards finish. This is like mario kart where you fall back because you are poor, but pick up super good boost and win.
chrisxls@reddit
Yeah, I have to hard disagree here. There is no golden mushroom. Foiling or not foiling, in light air, boat speed is everything. I have "sailed away from the finish" many times a season -- for the opposite reason, when you are sailing a 10,000 winnebago that sleeps 7, keeping boatspeed up is critical.
jk-9k@reddit
Colourful analogy but perfect
foilrider@reddit
This happens in traditional sailing too. A leading boat sails out in front, the wind dies closer to the finish, wind fills in from the rear and the boats in back all get a boost to catch up. If the wind is spotty the boats sailing up from behind with wind can carry that wind right around the former lead boat that is stuck in a hole they can't get out of.
"staying on foil" is "staying in the wind" which is the exact same strategy as on traditional boats.
wjruffing@reddit
Agreed! Next complaint we’re going to hear is that it’s “unfair” that the wind is not constantly blowing at exactly the same speed and direction over the entire course for the duration of the race (or from year to year for that matter).
What I’m hearing in all the complaints/whining is thinly-veiled remorse/excuses in response to their favorite crew not winning.
foilrider@reddit
His complaint is that New Zealand beat these boats even though the other teams sailed better. It's a dumb complaint.
It's like saying your favorite soccer team spent was ahead 3-2 up until the last 2 minutes of the game, and then they somehow allowed two goals in the last 2 minutes and lost 4-3, and this is Z"unfair because they played better for 95% of the game".
New Zealand sailed worse at the beginning of the race but better at the end, clearly.
Sillocan@reddit
Well said, planing and foiling are essentially the same thing
FlowAndSwerve@reddit
Brilliant elucidation, thank you. I learned.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
There is small benefit, but nothing as drastic as with foils.
Honeybadger2198@reddit
Unfortunately for you, bagging is a major strategy in Mario Kart. You'll have to come up with an example that doesn't prove the point you're trying to argue against.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Yes, it is major strategy in Mario Kart. It should not be strategy in sailing.
foilrider@reddit
Lol, it's nonsense that sailing in some other direction besides where you are aiming to go is not normal on every racecourse. Ever sailed upwind? Why don't you just point the boat directly at the top mark? Oh, because you get there faster if you sail in some other direction?
wjruffing@reddit
Finally! The voice of reason! Well said!
xClide_@reddit
Damn they got a gold mushroom and blasted past everyone
jimmywilsonsdance@reddit
Kind of like comparing formula 1 to a demolition derby. “Good driving” is highly context dependent.
UnkyjayJ@reddit
Well yeah that's my exact point. You can't say the winning team sailed bad. They sailed their vessel better than anyone else that day. That's why they went across the finish line first.
jk-9k@reddit
That's a tad misleading as when the intent is to stay en foil it's not bad sailing it's just a different tactic, and because it's the most important tactic it's the best tactic.
If I recall correctly though part of the reason these other boats stopped foiling wasn't so much because of their tack but because of crowding on the turn caused them to slow down for safety reasons.
PatchesMaps@reddit
I wouldn't call that bad sailing, it's just a different vessel, different sport, and different rules. That's like a stock car driver calling an F1 driver bad at driving because they don't bump draft... that's just not how it works.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
But it would be comparable of F1 driver driving track in opposite direction or somehow getting more engine power by being last one in line.
PatchesMaps@reddit
If the rules allow it and they win then they're not playing the sport badly.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Yes, I do not go agaisnt sailors. It is the rules that are bad, rules that allow foils.
wjruffing@reddit
Hence, the “gatekeeper” label.
I’m sure that back in the day someone was also complaining about the rules that allowed newer sail or hull materials instead of traditional canvas and wood hulls too.
Overall, I think embracing innovations that promote more interest and excitement (like this surprise finish) can only help this sport.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
I am open to innovation as long as rules are not changed to suit new boats better. If your foiler cannot safely sail in heavy winds or cannot move in light winds it is fault of boat and not rule.
habs_jays93@reddit
You mean like DRS?
curious-chineur@reddit
I understand your point about foiling. Although I have never sailed a foil equipped boat.
I would say that sailing hobby, you are likely better if you favor speed other azimuth or "cap". It is usually better to go fast than take the shorter route.
Excuse me , I am not native English speaker but this how I do it. It kind of works, on my "league". I am no professional, i do recreational almost informal sailing with 14, 16, 18 and a few 21.( very few) . Wind current and obstacles. Morbihan Gulf, in Fr. Speed isnm where it is at.
That move was perfect and smooth. Very tactical imo. Very impressive considering the speeds displayed. That is purely awesome.
Angry_Sparrow@reddit
This is the stupidest and most gatekeeping thing I’ve ever read. To race found you have two have talents, sailing and foiling. Team NZ have both.
jimmywilsonsdance@reddit
It’s not bad sailing, it is sailing with a different priority. It’s not bad sailing to pick a different course to improve your vmg at the expense of boat speed. Given the winner is the first across the line, I’d say their prioritization was proven correct.
Monkey_Fiddler@reddit
rewarding bad sailing because it introduces more luck or rewarding bad sailing because you make different decisions when foiling?
I don't think the latter is a good argument: I'll make different decisions to my competitors in different boats in our casual club races because my 25' lifting keel board performs very differently to my friend's 33' bilge keel with 3-4x the displacement and neither decision is bad sailing (well. often it is but that's my poor judgement). making the right call for your boat and executing it is good sailing.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
But do you commonly be last boat in line and then get one gust of wind and end up first?
Because that is problem with foils.
wrongwayup@reddit
Happens all the time. One big shift on a beat. I'd argue the stadium-style racing of SailGP takes that randomness out of it, whereas staying on your foils is a better measure of skill.
Spare-Builder-355@reddit
good explanation but you make it sound common knowledge and those exerienced skippers should have taken it into account. For what we know, maybe NZ skipper just followed your idea and kept foiling away instead of progressing towards finish and eventually was rewarded for risk ?
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Staying behind is bit of Hail Mary, you cannot use it as tool to win regattas. It just helps you when you have otherwise lost.
Spare-Builder-355@reddit
as you said - controversial opinion. Given NZ won the race it's difficult to agree with statement "you cannot use it as a tool to win" when video clearly shows that you can.
realSatanAMA@reddit
Square sails only!
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Why to use sails anyway? Motor boats are faster.
TheFluffiestRedditor@reddit
It's good strategy. All the other boats rounded the mark and fell off their foils. NZ had a path where they could stay foiling. It's the same as being able to fly a spinnaker longer.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
From race it seemed that "strategy" was being DFL and then getting lucky with wind. Yes, then they took it wide and managed to stay on foils in last part.
Miserable_Ad7246@reddit
So they made a calculated descion to loose some in order to gain some more and made a faster overall path? If so then its amaizing as it adds extra layer of complexity.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Too hard to distinguish luck from skill with these things.
Efficient_Waltz_8023@reddit
Not a fan of NZL/Burling but I don’t think I’d call that bad sailing. They made the best use of their equipment/the conditions at the time.
I don’t like handicap racing, prefer One Design but that doesn’t mean HC racing isn’t part of the sport. Same goes for foiling.
Guygan@reddit
Yup.
I saw this in some foiling races. Wind was light and variable so the boats just kept beam reaching across the course and getting FARTHER from the next mark just so they could stay up.
fgorina@reddit
I would say that techniques for foiling are different than those of traditional sailing.
ajd341@reddit
Fantastic explanation ^
norcalnomad@reddit
Cause boomers mad at things changing.
TheFluffiestRedditor@reddit
They've been on Moths for decades, but nobody's complaining about them.
FU-allthetime@reddit
Why didn’t the other boats go fast also, are they stupid?
ClausTrophobix@reddit
Yes, most likely. The New Zealanders used en passant which is a smart move, but needs a lot of IQ.
fastsailor@reddit
Where would Kiwis get that from?
xmeps@reddit
Found the aussie
sa87@reddit
Holy hell!
invalidConsciousness@reddit
Mainsail just dropped!
NZpotatomash@reddit
Why don't the other boats go up on their foils? Are they stupid?
Undecked_Pear@reddit
They did it without hitting anyone? Impressive. Must be a new strategy.
This is a joke, in case it needed sauing.
Palocles@reddit
lol!
Imagine the crews on the other three boats watching the Nz boat blast past them. 😆
Zikeal@reddit
This is why i paint my cars black, its faster i swear.
wjruffing@reddit
Curses! Foiled again!
Interesting-Poem-820@reddit
Looks like he used the tactic of going faster than others during a race. Totally how I’d do it.
DispInkComic@reddit
Sir I work for Mensa. Are you interested in a job as director of inteligence?
wjruffing@reddit
That would make you King of the Pakleds!
EnlightenedArt@reddit
Does work involve calcumulations?
tikstar@reddit
Circumcisions mostly.
OmgSlayKween@reddit
istinkatgolf@reddit
We r highring.
teebu_blazing@reddit
It's a bold, nuanced strategy
wjruffing@reddit
Never been tried before
RedRedditor84@reddit
And to do it in the right direction was a strong oe of genius.
MediocreDot3@reddit
Toppled two masts on a 50 ft all wooden ketch in a vintage wood regatta in Annapolis with this tactic once 😂 everyone in the race was reefing we went full send
Interesting-Poem-820@reddit
I bet it was working until it didn't work!
MediocreDot3@reddit
If you ain't first your last
SimilarStrain@reddit
You see, the one problem with that tactic. Is it works until it doesnt.
Interesting-Poem-820@reddit
Well I have encountered opponents who were also applying the same idea...
mokunuimoo@reddit
Woah yeah you’re right
That’s a good tactic
RebelJustforClicks@reddit
Novice sailor, why were the others going SO SLOW... Like, couldn't they go faster? What was the NZ team doing that the others couldn't?
saywherefore@reddit
When you fall off the foils you have lots more drag so it is surprisingly hard to get back onto them, especially in light wind conditions.
Add to that the closeness of the three boats meaning that at least two of them don’t have space to manoeuvre in the way they would need to in order to get back onto their foils.
start3ch@reddit
That must’ve been epic to see from the stands
GoatPincher@reddit
Can someone explain to me how this happened without being a douche?
georgekush4prez@reddit
How? Why everyone else moving so slow?
BrerChicken@reddit
Triple overtake at the line! I had not seen that, but it's classic. They get all caught up fighting each other for meters that they give up DOZENS OF METERS to someone who wasn't even fighting!
summertime_blue@reddit
The background should be that Moana song
chisailor@reddit
Shake n bake. Just like Ricky Bobby
Wizard_with_a_Pipe@reddit
I wonder if he is using the same wind we are using.
Blue_foot@reddit
DRS obviously
sa87@reddit
The other three were superclipping.
sean_ocean@reddit
where did they get that wind? Amazing.
bigmphan@reddit
On the foil vs. off the foil. Total pounce move on everybody.
M3chanist@reddit
Miss the days where boats used to win races by moving through the water, not above.
robbimj@reddit
You don't have to miss it. Every weekend there are boats that win races by moving through the water. Foiling only accounts for a small portion of races right?
Do you think that every sailboat foils now? Or are you just exaggerating for effect in a nostalgic way?
TheFluffiestRedditor@reddit
You're not a fan of Moths then, the class which developed foiling.
Hex_Medusa@reddit
congrats to the Kiwis to not cause another accident for once.
silentglider@reddit
Jesus christ! Thats awesome!
jdthejerk@reddit
He cut off their wind and at the last moment, took it all.
Toutatous@reddit
The boat us behind, just sailing at a better angle for a longer time and using the momentum to pass the other catamarans.
jdthejerk@reddit
After watching again, I see what you mean. Their sails didn't even flutter as he went by. I'd like to see the last 10 minutes of the race to watch how he caught up at that speed.
Toutatous@reddit
Those are rigid sails, they won't flutter. It came back downwind full speed and just past them as they were not foiling (so much slower).
BearLeft77@reddit
Was that for the win?
boobs_I_say@reddit
Looks like it was to finish 8th
wrongwayup@reddit
Points are points!
DocWilly84@reddit
Better than 11th. Broke into the top ten!
DistributionHonest37@reddit
Trippplle caution stay centor!
mechabeast@reddit
Why dont they just go that fast the whole time?
j0nthegreat@reddit
are they using the same wind as us?
Moose_Kin@reddit
Other boats probably.
DudeByTheTree@reddit
Not even into sailing, but that was fairly impressive. Can't imagine the difficulty increase in threading a needle like that when the whole surface underneath you is moving you around....
Bigdaddyjlove1@reddit
'Ope. Let me just scooch by here.
Rogueshoten@reddit
Did anyone see the 90 seconds before that to explain how they did it?
chrismclp@reddit
Weird turn/to many boats caused the others to have to slow down, they came in on the other tack
Alphamacaroon@reddit
As a person who has sailed and raced sailboats my entire adult life, I cannot fathom why anyone would not consider this “real” sailing. I couldn’t think of a better way, than finishes like this to get more people interested in the sport.
olddoglearnsnewtrick@reddit
Impressive. Now try with the motor off!
Markronom@reddit
No motor, but foiling :)
olddoglearnsnewtrick@reddit
Well lol yes I know. I was attempting (and obviously failed) humor.
johnnydfree@reddit
Iconic move - still looks so risky on the replay i expect it to come out differently every time i watch it.
crewsctrl@reddit
Curses! Foiled again!
MongolianCluster@reddit
Like an old lady through a parking lot.