In case you haven't seen this triple overtake by New Zealand at SailGP

THE most important thing is not accuracy, it is telling the audience how to feel. If the audience knows how to feel, they will forgive any breakdown in a narrative making sense.

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Holgzac6@reddit

Gas Gas Gas, I'm gonna step on the gas!

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LinguoBuxo@reddit

................Can they do this at Hormuz?

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jonashaase@reddit

Not sure foiling oiltankers are such a great idea in general

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"foiling" warships exist. Obviously they don't pull completely out of the water but just a tiny amount of lift to reduce wetted area, gives about 15% efficiency increase. I assume we'll see tankers with some form of foils within a decade or so

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AndyLorentz@reddit

Obviously they don't pull completely out of the water

The Pegasus-class disagrees

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MerijnZ1@reddit

Lol yeah fair I forgot those mofos existed. Seems like an absolute hazard to work in though

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AndyLorentz@reddit

Well, they only built 6, and were cancelled due to reliability and expense concerns (48 kn at 1000 gallons per hour, lol)

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BlacksmithNZ@reddit

Seems like they just cruise on diesel at 12 knots with the hull in the water and only when they need to get up and go, they fire up the gasturbine - all 18,000 SHP of it

48 knots, they will outrun almost ships, but still not fast enough if the bad guns are cheating and using aircraft

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ziper1221@reddit

No, we won't. Lift to drag is all about efficiency. A displacement vessel has L/D ratios much higher than hydrofoils.

Speed is generally not that important in sea cargo. If you want it there fast, you fly it. Cargo ships have actually started going slower recently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_steaming

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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MerijnZ1@reddit

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neutral-labs@reddit

Well, they surely would be harder to hit with a sea drone while they're up on the foils, so there's that.

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PatchesMaps@reddit

But think of the profits!

-Some big oil CTO somewhere probably.

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wjruffing@reddit

With large enough rocket engines and supercavitation, why not. Will that enable them to outrun a missile? No.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

And thats why foiling should stay at sailGP

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freewaytrees@reddit

For the uninformed - why?

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

It is controversial opinion, but this is not what traditional sailing is. In foiling racing all you need to do is to stay on foil. In some cases it is more important to stay on foils than progress towards goal. In traditional yacht race NZ would have lost by major margin, they failed in race. But because how foils work they got good pressure and got lifted on foils. Teams that had sailed better got wind later and did not have time to pop up on foils to sail to goal before NZ passed them.

Tdlr. foiling sailing has bad habit of sometimes rewarding bad sailing.

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bobalou2you@reddit

It is however the sport every boat out there chose to participate in. They can all take their bat and ball and go home if they do not want to play!

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

Yes, but sadly some people think that every class should foil now. They seep trough and replace other classes.

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jk-9k@reddit

You're entirely correct not every class should be foiling.

But AC may not be the best example as AC is essentially open class until the rules are agreed to by the holder and challenger of record

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UnkyjayJ@reddit

surely its good sailing but simply a different kind of vessel. you wouldn't captain a mono hull like you would a catamaran.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

Even with multi you sail towards finish. This is like mario kart where you fall back because you are poor, but pick up super good boost and win.

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chrisxls@reddit

Yeah, I have to hard disagree here. There is no golden mushroom. Foiling or not foiling, in light air, boat speed is everything. I have "sailed away from the finish" many times a season -- for the opposite reason, when you are sailing a 10,000 winnebago that sleeps 7, keeping boatspeed up is critical.

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jk-9k@reddit

Colourful analogy but perfect

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foilrider@reddit

This happens in traditional sailing too. A leading boat sails out in front, the wind dies closer to the finish, wind fills in from the rear and the boats in back all get a boost to catch up. If the wind is spotty the boats sailing up from behind with wind can carry that wind right around the former lead boat that is stuck in a hole they can't get out of.

"staying on foil" is "staying in the wind" which is the exact same strategy as on traditional boats.

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wjruffing@reddit

Agreed! Next complaint we’re going to hear is that it’s “unfair” that the wind is not constantly blowing at exactly the same speed and direction over the entire course for the duration of the race (or from year to year for that matter).

What I’m hearing in all the complaints/whining is thinly-veiled remorse/excuses in response to their favorite crew not winning.

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foilrider@reddit

His complaint is that New Zealand beat these boats even though the other teams sailed better. It's a dumb complaint.

It's like saying your favorite soccer team spent was ahead 3-2 up until the last 2 minutes of the game, and then they somehow allowed two goals in the last 2 minutes and lost 4-3, and this is Z"unfair because they played better for 95% of the game".

New Zealand sailed worse at the beginning of the race but better at the end, clearly.

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Sillocan@reddit

Well said, planing and foiling are essentially the same thing

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FlowAndSwerve@reddit

Brilliant elucidation, thank you. I learned.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

There is small benefit, but nothing as drastic as with foils.

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Honeybadger2198@reddit

Unfortunately for you, bagging is a major strategy in Mario Kart. You'll have to come up with an example that doesn't prove the point you're trying to argue against.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

Yes, it is major strategy in Mario Kart. It should not be strategy in sailing.

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foilrider@reddit

Lol, it's nonsense that sailing in some other direction besides where you are aiming to go is not normal on every racecourse. Ever sailed upwind? Why don't you just point the boat directly at the top mark? Oh, because you get there faster if you sail in some other direction?

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wjruffing@reddit

Finally! The voice of reason! Well said!

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xClide_@reddit

Damn they got a gold mushroom and blasted past everyone

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jimmywilsonsdance@reddit

Kind of like comparing formula 1 to a demolition derby. “Good driving” is highly context dependent.

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UnkyjayJ@reddit

Well yeah that's my exact point. You can't say the winning team sailed bad. They sailed their vessel better than anyone else that day. That's why they went across the finish line first.

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jk-9k@reddit

That's a tad misleading as when the intent is to stay en foil it's not bad sailing it's just a different tactic, and because it's the most important tactic it's the best tactic.

If I recall correctly though part of the reason these other boats stopped foiling wasn't so much because of their tack but because of crowding on the turn caused them to slow down for safety reasons.

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PatchesMaps@reddit

I wouldn't call that bad sailing, it's just a different vessel, different sport, and different rules. That's like a stock car driver calling an F1 driver bad at driving because they don't bump draft... that's just not how it works.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

But it would be comparable of F1 driver driving track in opposite direction or somehow getting more engine power by being last one in line.

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PatchesMaps@reddit

If the rules allow it and they win then they're not playing the sport badly.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

Yes, I do not go agaisnt sailors. It is the rules that are bad, rules that allow foils.

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wjruffing@reddit

Hence, the “gatekeeper” label.

I’m sure that back in the day someone was also complaining about the rules that allowed newer sail or hull materials instead of traditional canvas and wood hulls too.

Overall, I think embracing innovations that promote more interest and excitement (like this surprise finish) can only help this sport.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

I am open to innovation as long as rules are not changed to suit new boats better. If your foiler cannot safely sail in heavy winds or cannot move in light winds it is fault of boat and not rule.

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habs_jays93@reddit

You mean like DRS?

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curious-chineur@reddit

I understand your point about foiling. Although I have never sailed a foil equipped boat.
I would say that sailing hobby, you are likely better if you favor speed other azimuth or "cap". It is usually better to go fast than take the shorter route.
Excuse me , I am not native English speaker but this how I do it. It kind of works, on my "league". I am no professional, i do recreational almost informal sailing with 14, 16, 18 and a few 21.( very few) . Wind current and obstacles. Morbihan Gulf, in Fr. Speed isnm where it is at.

That move was perfect and smooth. Very tactical imo. Very impressive considering the speeds displayed. That is purely awesome.

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Angry_Sparrow@reddit

This is the stupidest and most gatekeeping thing I’ve ever read. To race found you have two have talents, sailing and foiling. Team NZ have both.

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jimmywilsonsdance@reddit

It’s not bad sailing, it is sailing with a different priority. It’s not bad sailing to pick a different course to improve your vmg at the expense of boat speed. Given the winner is the first across the line, I’d say their prioritization was proven correct.

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Monkey_Fiddler@reddit

rewarding bad sailing because it introduces more luck or rewarding bad sailing because you make different decisions when foiling?

I don't think the latter is a good argument: I'll make different decisions to my competitors in different boats in our casual club races because my 25' lifting keel board performs very differently to my friend's 33' bilge keel with 3-4x the displacement and neither decision is bad sailing (well. often it is but that's my poor judgement). making the right call for your boat and executing it is good sailing.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

But do you commonly be last boat in line and then get one gust of wind and end up first?

Because that is problem with foils.

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wrongwayup@reddit

Happens all the time. One big shift on a beat. I'd argue the stadium-style racing of SailGP takes that randomness out of it, whereas staying on your foils is a better measure of skill.

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Spare-Builder-355@reddit

good explanation but you make it sound common knowledge and those exerienced skippers should have taken it into account. For what we know, maybe NZ skipper just followed your idea and kept foiling away instead of progressing towards finish and eventually was rewarded for risk ?

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

Staying behind is bit of Hail Mary, you cannot use it as tool to win regattas. It just helps you when you have otherwise lost.

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Spare-Builder-355@reddit

as you said - controversial opinion. Given NZ won the race it's difficult to agree with statement "you cannot use it as a tool to win" when video clearly shows that you can.

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realSatanAMA@reddit

Square sails only!

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

Why to use sails anyway? Motor boats are faster.

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TheFluffiestRedditor@reddit

It's good strategy. All the other boats rounded the mark and fell off their foils. NZ had a path where they could stay foiling. It's the same as being able to fly a spinnaker longer.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

From race it seemed that "strategy" was being DFL and then getting lucky with wind. Yes, then they took it wide and managed to stay on foils in last part.

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Miserable_Ad7246@reddit

So they made a calculated descion to loose some in order to gain some more and made a faster overall path? If so then its amaizing as it adds extra layer of complexity.

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Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit

Too hard to distinguish luck from skill with these things.

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Efficient_Waltz_8023@reddit

Not a fan of NZL/Burling but I don’t think I’d call that bad sailing. They made the best use of their equipment/the conditions at the time.

I don’t like handicap racing, prefer One Design but that doesn’t mean HC racing isn’t part of the sport. Same goes for foiling.

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Guygan@reddit

In foiling racing number one goal is to stay on foil. It is more important to stay on foils than progress towards finish

Yup.

I saw this in some foiling races. Wind was light and variable so the boats just kept beam reaching across the course and getting FARTHER from the next mark just so they could stay up.

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fgorina@reddit

I would say that techniques for foiling are different than those of traditional sailing.

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ajd341@reddit

Fantastic explanation ^

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norcalnomad@reddit

Cause boomers mad at things changing.

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TheFluffiestRedditor@reddit

They've been on Moths for decades, but nobody's complaining about them.

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FU-allthetime@reddit

Why didn’t the other boats go fast also, are they stupid?

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ClausTrophobix@reddit

Yes, most likely. The New Zealanders used en passant which is a smart move, but needs a lot of IQ.

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fastsailor@reddit

Where would Kiwis get that from?

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xmeps@reddit

Found the aussie

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sa87@reddit

Holy hell!

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invalidConsciousness@reddit

Mainsail just dropped!

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NZpotatomash@reddit

Why don't the other boats go up on their foils? Are they stupid?

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Undecked_Pear@reddit

They did it without hitting anyone? Impressive. Must be a new strategy.

This is a joke, in case it needed sauing.

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Palocles@reddit

lol!

Imagine the crews on the other three boats watching the Nz boat blast past them. 😆

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Zikeal@reddit

This is why i paint my cars black, its faster i swear.

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wjruffing@reddit

Curses! Foiled again!

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Interesting-Poem-820@reddit

Looks like he used the tactic of going faster than others during a race. Totally how I’d do it.

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DispInkComic@reddit

Sir I work for Mensa. Are you interested in a job as director of inteligence?

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wjruffing@reddit

That would make you King of the Pakleds!

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EnlightenedArt@reddit

Does work involve calcumulations?

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tikstar@reddit

Circumcisions mostly.

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OmgSlayKween@reddit

inteligence

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istinkatgolf@reddit

We r highring.

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teebu_blazing@reddit

It's a bold, nuanced strategy

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wjruffing@reddit

Never been tried before

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RedRedditor84@reddit

And to do it in the right direction was a strong oe of genius.

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MediocreDot3@reddit

Toppled two masts on a 50 ft all wooden ketch in a vintage wood regatta in Annapolis with this tactic once 😂 everyone in the race was reefing we went full send

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Interesting-Poem-820@reddit

I bet it was working until it didn't work!

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MediocreDot3@reddit

If you ain't first your last

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SimilarStrain@reddit

You see, the one problem with that tactic. Is it works until it doesnt.

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Interesting-Poem-820@reddit

Well I have encountered opponents who were also applying the same idea...

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mokunuimoo@reddit

Woah yeah you’re right

That’s a good tactic

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RebelJustforClicks@reddit

Novice sailor, why were the others going SO SLOW... Like, couldn't they go faster? What was the NZ team doing that the others couldn't?

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saywherefore@reddit

When you fall off the foils you have lots more drag so it is surprisingly hard to get back onto them, especially in light wind conditions.

Add to that the closeness of the three boats meaning that at least two of them don’t have space to manoeuvre in the way they would need to in order to get back onto their foils.

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start3ch@reddit

That must’ve been epic to see from the stands

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GoatPincher@reddit

Can someone explain to me how this happened without being a douche?

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georgekush4prez@reddit

How? Why everyone else moving so slow?

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BrerChicken@reddit

Triple overtake at the line! I had not seen that, but it's classic. They get all caught up fighting each other for meters that they give up DOZENS OF METERS to someone who wasn't even fighting!

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summertime_blue@reddit

The background should be that Moana song

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chisailor@reddit

Shake n bake. Just like Ricky Bobby

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Wizard_with_a_Pipe@reddit

I wonder if he is using the same wind we are using.

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Blue_foot@reddit

DRS obviously

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sa87@reddit

The other three were superclipping.

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sean_ocean@reddit

where did they get that wind? Amazing.

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bigmphan@reddit

On the foil vs. off the foil. Total pounce move on everybody.

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M3chanist@reddit

Miss the days where boats used to win races by moving through the water, not above.

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robbimj@reddit

You don't have to miss it. Every weekend there are boats that win races by moving through the water. Foiling only accounts for a small portion of races right?

Do you think that every sailboat foils now? Or are you just exaggerating for effect in a nostalgic way?

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