Also hear me out.....
Posted by HellavuSpeedBump@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 40 comments
Yeah yeah I know, put the crack pipe down and too much BF1 and all that. But bouncing off of what u/the_LARP_consumes posted, would a Burton style weapon realistically work, save for something like a law enforcement?
Spy_crab_@reddit
It's been suggested many times, last time IIRC with the 2 tube shotguns. The problem is doctrine. When it comes to less lethal ammo you want to be sure, really sure, extremely sure that it doesn't get mixed in with lethal rounds. IIRC police forces often use shotguns with bright blue furniture which are only ever loaded with bean bags.
This is one of those cases where the engineering is easy, but thr training/doctrine needed to make it work is far too demanding. Maybe some counter terrorism or high threat response team might consider it, but it isn't something you can give to average, even above average law enforcement personnel. (As long as you care about safety of course, Ruzzia used thermobaric rockets in hostage situations, so maybe an authoritarian state might use something like this to show their technological superiority over the west, while also proving their disregard for safety)
StevenMcStevensen@reddit
In my agency we don’t even use beanbag shotguns, we exclusively use single-shot 40mm launchers for that purpose which no officer couple possibly mistake for our regular shotguns or rifles.
Petrus_Rock@reddit
Sponge rounds sound soft but I strongly doubt they feel that way on the business end. How do people describe getting hit by it feels? I’m curious.
StevenMcStevensen@reddit
Well nobody who gets hit with them is really keen to get hit again for sure. They’re not super squishy and they’re travelling at high velocity, the things leave a nasty bruise. Anecdotally, I’ve heard that a lot of shitties who have been hit with them actually thought they’d been shot with a real firearm until they were told what it actually was.
Petrus_Rock@reddit
Depending on where you live that applies to lethal firearms too.
StevenMcStevensen@reddit
Everybody has already (correctly) pointed out the serious flaws with this concept in practice, so I’ll just add in that I’m not sure how those theoretically system would be intended to work.
If it’s supposed to be semi or fully auto, would you just be expecting the users to manually cycle the less-lethal rounds, since they almost certainly won’t have the energy to do it? And what sort of effective, yet still relatively safe, less-lethal projectile would you be hoping to fire from a small-bore rifle barrel?
Petrus_Rock@reddit
BB’s? Not greatly effective though. You need an absurdly high rate of fire to annoy stubborn cattle enough to move. Good luck on angry people.
Natural_Youth_5941@reddit
All fun and games until you’ve got the gun set to the wrong selector. Oops
voytek007@reddit
He said stun!
RollinThundaga@reddit
Yeah this is giv8ng 'pistol grip taser' vibes.
KaijuTia@reddit
To be fair, a Tazer is yellow and a gun is black. And I too had problems remembering colors when I was in kindergarten.
RollinThundaga@reddit
There have been numerous incidents where officers have shot people, and in the inquisition following the shooting, claimed to have confused their taser for their gun.
HavelsRockJohnson@reddit
We've also learned in the recent decade that a lot of cops are fuckin stupid.
TheAleFly@reddit
Well, they are shaped that way all around the world too. Here the local police go through a college level education to become one. Stress and adrenaline do strange things.
KaijuTia@reddit
HEY NOW! If we didn't have cops, do you know how many high school bullies would be unemployed right now??
HavelsRockJohnson@reddit
I'm not saying we should get rid of cops, just that a bunch of them couldn't find their asses with both hands, a map, and a whoopie cushion.
KaijuTia@reddit
Gotta cut em some slack. 40% of cops are colorblind. It's true. Just google "40% cops"
1337haxoryt@reddit
This cop did
Merry-Leopard_1A5@reddit
"it's funny because several people have already died to officers mistaking their gun for their taser"
J3RICHO_@reddit
This is just the KSG-12 "one tube lethal, one tube less lethal" meme except full auto and also a bad idea
Mapekus@reddit
Accident waiting to happen. Segregating your lethal and non-lethal weapons is practice for a reason.
StevenMcStevensen@reddit
Exactly this.
Shotguns with dual magazine tubes were already advertised for this theoretical capability before, but there’s a reason no agencies actually use them that way. Everybody knows it’s not a case of if somebody will accidentally blast somebody with a live round while trying to use the less-lethal, but when.
ye3tr@reddit
Also allows you (if you have a buddy) to both have LL and lethal pointed at the same time allowing you to immediately escalate without fiddling
SPECTREagent700@reddit
You wouldn’t just have to switch the selector but you’d also have to clear a round from the chamber in which case you might as well just manually change the magazine.
Tactical_Epunk@reddit
Not sure you fully understand what a rifle less lethal is like, or how easy this is to be incorrectly set at all times.
80m63rM4n@reddit
How about "Lethal" and "Even more lethal"?
Motobugs@reddit
Murphys law is always correct.
RickySlayer9@reddit
I feel like the thing this would create, is a “TASER TASER TASER situation
VallettaAwoo@reddit
No
LEOs have long learned that having a mixed lethal/non lethal gun is a bad idea.
Thats why most non lethal guns can only chamber and fire non lethal, or generally 870s used have bright orange furniture.
GoredonTheDestroyer@reddit
Not that it ever really stopped LEOs from using less-lethal implements in ways that do kill people.
TurboEncabulator_1@reddit
Scene: A person robs a store with a knife. Person is cornered by police and is refusing to cooperate.
Officer #1 : Hands Up! Drop the weapon or you will be shot with a less than lethal gun!
Subject #1 : No!
*OFFICER #1 Fires their lethal/less lethal hybrid rifle at Subject #1.
*Subject #1 drops to the ground like a sack of rocks, bleeding heavily.
Officer #1 : SHIT! I thought I had less than lethal selected.
There is no reason it would not be mechanically feasible, but it would be a horrible idea in practice. You would need some kind of lever or switch to select lethal and less than lethal. A lever that would inevitably be mistakenly put in the wrong position in a high stress, life and death situation. There is a reason beanbag shotguns for example, are brightly colored. So you can distinguish it from a lethal weapon in an instant.
A-Feral-Idiot@reddit
I have a keltech ksg. Bullpup shotgun with two tubes and switch to pick the tube you want to pull from. I think it’s a horrible idea for a stressful situation to have bean bags in one tube and buckshot in another.
BaronSimo@reddit
Law enforcement would hate having one weapon for both. Tasers are carried on the opposite side of the belt because in the stress of a situation a cop should have no doubt if they are using lethal force. I think Tinder Ranch advises back up sights because there were situations where a cop would grab their rifle with a dead red dot and not know till they are about to use it. If they won’t check their red dot they aren’t checking the switch is set to non lethal and they will kill people they didn’t mean to.
TLDR: Training issues make it a liability nightmare
MojoCrow@reddit
With the above lethal/less lethal rifle, Police training would get reduced to "Now you're killin', now you ain't. Classed dismissed."
coldafsteel@reddit
shotguns have already done this.
But it's not a practical concept for rifles.
Juva96@reddit
I think there's a rifle with dual magazine mount and a pivot system to feed from the magazine you want. I think it was posted on this subreddit already.
Waluigi_is_wiafu@reddit
I know exactly what would happen maybe twice before these things get put away. They'd switch the magazines from lethal to non-lethal, then fire the lethal bullet from the chamber into someone they never meant to kill.
BigBrassPair@reddit
Sir, please put down the hallucinogens and back away slowly.
KaijuTia@reddit
Left mag is buckshot. Right mag is PEZ
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