family run pubs - where do i draw the line?
Posted by Impossible-Fox4995@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 106 comments
i was on here a few weeks ago expressing my struggles;
i work 2 hours, cash in hand so i get £20 to clean the full pub
kitchen
- mopping
- washing, drying and putting dishes away
- wiping the sides down
- cleaning the cooker
outside
- sweeping the top deck, yard and front
- emptying cigarette butts
- picking up any cigs off the floor
- taking the bins out
toilets
- wiping everything down
- mopping
- sweeping
- bleaching
lounges
- wiping and polishing tables
- hoovering
- sweeping
- mopping
bar
- putting xtra glasses away
- hoovering
- mopping
extras list (every week/month)
- wiping the skirting down
- dusting doorframes with a feather
- cleaning mirrors
so for every week, i do the regular cleaning, and every friday of that week, i do the extras list, at first, it was going fine, they had no complaints, and told me once i was done i could leave, so i had being doing so, getting for them to check that they were satisfied with my cleaning (which they were, so i left)
saturday and sundays are becoming an issue where they were like 'you were only here for an hour and a half, so we aren't paying you for the full 2 hours, just 1', which i don't get, as long as everything has been done, and the extras list i don't see the issue.
at first, when i came on here to talk about this, the issue lied with that i wasn't doing the extras list, as everytime i was instructed i was told to leave it and not bother, or that i could go.
i feel as though i'm completely and utterly unsure on what to do at this point - they keep complaining about snail trails, and stuff, but haven't prepared to try and eradicate the fact there are snails/slugs, and today, after i hoovered the entire pub (a shitty henry hoover, that doesn't get majority of the muck up, so i go around picking up crumbs), that there was two crumbs on the floor that had been missed (they exaggerated that i missed loads!!)
in the enterance, there is plaster falling off of the wall, crumbing, and i hoover it up, ill come in to clean the next day where they'll complain that it wasn't done, when it was.
as of now, i've started writing checklists and taking photos to back myself of my work, and i just need some advice.
are they allowed to stop paying me for an hour and a half and reduce it to 1 hour, rather then 2? considering i am doing all of what theyve asked?
Able_Arm_7201@reddit
Leave that place... Clearly toxic management and you probably are young and work without contract so they are taking a mickey. Instead work as self employed and actually establish what is part of the cleaning and not a per hour pay. Speak to other places and get a variety of clients going, like if you can manage two you will have comparison on how they treat you. Also £20 for what you listed is a little money unless it's just a brush over job
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you, i am defo planning on it, im gonna look into what i need for making my own business.
Able_Arm_7201@reddit
Don't take too long looking either, operate first. Action breeds change, too much planning gets you stuck oftentimes.. Good luck and don't let people walk all over you - clearly you already have the right instinct to recognise the issue early and you've not let yourself be gaslighted either, you articulate the story very well.
Big_Chungussi69@reddit
Why are you lieing for a start?
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
not lying at all brother, learn how to spell before coming onto here about my work ethic
Sufficient-Cold-9496@reddit
Are you a relative of the owners ( hence "family run" pub)?
How old are you?
if you are under 13 you can not legally work there are other rules around under 14,16 etc
and if you are old enough does your pay rate meet or exceed NMW for your age bracket ?
Assuming you are old enough, keep a record of the time you are working and then check that against your pay, if below NMW then you should report them, you could also take legal action.
For employment legal issues post on UK legal advice here : https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
nono im not a relative, i got hired through a facebook jobs group, im 19 and a student!
and yes, i do, i am getting paid the correct amount per shift, but it's £10 an hour and i know NMW is £13?
Sufficient-Cold-9496@reddit
for someone between 18-20 the NMW is £10/hour going up to £10.85/hour from 1st april.
that is the rate per hour not per shift.
This is what you do, work out iof you are being paid below NMW - this is per hour and no per shift if your "shift" takes 1.5 hours and they have been paying you £10 per shift then you are being underpaid
you will need to get some evidence of this, by email or some other form - ie written contract. if you must use whatsapp screen shot any evidence.
Give your employer the opportunity to put this right and ask for your missing wages, if they dont then you must repost them here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pay-and-work-rights-complaints
Post on r/UKLegalAdvice
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
do you reckon i could dock my job in and then dob them in? i dont really need any backlash :,)
Ok-Rain6295@reddit
I’d give them a chance to correct it first (gain evidence) then report them. There won’t be any legal consequences for you do just reporting being underpaid. They might have a problem with you, though. But fuck ‘em.
Make sure you also ask about holidays. Even only working a few hours a week you’ll accrue some.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thanks so much!
Ok-Rain6295@reddit
Minimum wage for your age is £10.85. So they are underpaying you and should be reported to HMRC. It doesn’t matter how you were hired or if there’s a written contract. They owe you at least minimum wage. That’s the law.
Drug_Taker917@reddit
Until 5 days ago, it was £10 on the nose. I'm not saying they're in the right, at all, but that was a legal wage until the 1st of April
Ok-Rain6295@reddit
Ah. Well, in that case maybe they’re in the clear for that. Probably not paying NI or holiday pay. I wonder if they’ve also done any relevant health and safety training and/or have risk assessments/COSHH available for OP.
Drug_Taker917@reddit
Also don't need to do that if OP is self employed, sole traders are exempt from IR35 rules (I am an accountant who deals with a tonne of off-payroll workers)
escapingfromelba@reddit
You speak about "allowed" when you've taken a cash in hand job. Time to find another job, not dig a hole for yourself having dodged taxes (and possibly committed benefit fraud)
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
im a student whos needing a little bit extra for food shopping..
yossanator@reddit
In the kitchens I work in, KP's are well treated, as well as well paid. They are a vital part of a kitchen brigade. To expect you to do all of that for £20 is fucking terrible. You are being exploited mate.
Register with an Agency and get some KP work on the circuit.
Agencies
Just explain your predicament and that you need something ASAP. Give 'em a call. Shy bairns get naught.
Wishing you the best of luck and hope you can go elsewhere soon!
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you so much!! i appreciate that
Mysterious-Sock39@reddit
Get a grip jesus bin the job or pay me properly £15 an hour if they say no they'll either have to do it themselves as they won't find anyone else at 10 an hour...speak up for yourself now....you are young stand up for yourself and continue to do so. Your time and effort is important so they either pay properly or u are done
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
i would quit if i was financially stable but i live on my own in student accom and need to feed myself somehow :,), i need to find another job if i cant come to an agreement with them (i just dont know how to approach it)
Mysterious-Sock39@reddit
Put it bluntly to them I'm happy to continue but pay me properly or thanks and good luck finding someone who'll accept £10...you are young u need to stand up for yourself now it's an important part in your life to be able to not sell yourself short, it's a 20 quid job if u lose it so be it
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you! thats very helpful
Glasgowbeat@reddit
You're worth more than that. They can fork out an extra £2.71 an hour to meet minimum wage (absolutely no money at all) or you just tell them it's not working for you and walk away. Just be honest about it and leave on positive terms if necessary.
When you're handing CVs in are you literally just handing them into whoever you first see? You could go in somewhere (during their quiet hours and they're not busy and ask if a manager is about, say you'd like to ask to keep you in mind for any employment opportunities. Give you the chance to speak to the decision makers and leave a positive impression.
You could post your CV on Reddit forums (remove personal details), it might need spruced up a bit.
Just a thought, you could reach out to local cleaning companies and offer your assistance, it sounds like you're proficient at doing that.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
yeah im going to anyone where i can just to get my name out there! and thank you. <3
BVOP83@reddit
If it’s cash in hand and an informal agreement, as crappy of them as it is, they’re allowed to do more or less whatever they want. I think the one thing that needs to be agreed with them is whether they’re paying for your time or for the pub to be cleaned to a high standard. If the former, screw them. Just take as long as you like to get the job done. If it’s for a clean pub, get them to agree to a fixed rate for the job to be done and then the time it takes should be irrelevant
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
this is what im confused on (i do everything thoroughly and they say theyre happy, but complain about me leaving 30-45 mins early tho everythings done)
Rude-Possibility4682@reddit
If they pay you for two hours, then you need to be there the full two hours, regardless of whether you finished the work or not. If you go home early, then they only need to pay you the time you were at work.
Orange_Codex@reddit
Tell them to pay a legal wage if they want an actual employee.
Drug_Taker917@reddit
Up until 5 days ago, they were paying a legal wage. I'm not saying they're in the right, at all, but this entire comment section has vastly overestimated what minimum wage is
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
ahaha, ive applied to as many jobs as i can right now, im hoping somewhere gets back to me
BVOP83@reddit
They’re taking advantage of you and trying to save pennies by not paying you properly. Honestly, if they won’t just agree a reasonable fixed amount to clean the pub (£20 is far from reasonable if it takes longer than 1.5 hours) then you deserve better.
My advice, ask them to agree that the £20 is for the job, not the time. If they disagree, quit there and then if you can afford to. I guarantee they won’t find may people who’d be willing to do what you do for that amount of money
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
yeah i mean i want to stick it out until i get another job, but its grating on me that they can't seem to be satisfied if i leave slightly early, i will have to ask them! thank you :D
Mongoose-Relevant@reddit
How old are you?
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
im 19, a student so getting a job where i live is really awful at the minute and i cant find anywhere
Mongoose-Relevant@reddit
You're being underpaid for a start
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
i know :/ it has no contract either, so im not sure what to do
Limp-Archer-7872@reddit
Phone hmrc and dob him in. I bet you aren't on the books.
Alternatively, work a little slower to fill out the two hours.
Btw even if you work only 90 minutes then you should be paid for 90 not 60.
Mongoose-Relevant@reddit
Totally this.
If he or she is being this tight with you get HMRC involved and watch them squirm.
I'd honestly love if you could tell us the pub so it would be trashed in the reviews
Randomfinn@reddit
Email or text the owner to “clear the air” - tell him since you are being paid £20 for two hours of work you want to make sure you are doing what is expected, and lay out your hours of work and tasks. Be polite but keep in mind you’ll be showing this to others to prove your wage and working conditions.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thats very helpful, i appreciate it!
whatmichaelsays@reddit
ACAS and HMRC are your ports of call.
ACAS for advice on your employment rights. HMRC to enforce your minimum wage rights.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pay-and-work-rights-complaints
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you guys!
Nerissa23@reddit
Its illegal to pay less than min/living wage
Naive_Reach2007@reddit
You could Report them to HMRC and any pub regularity body, the reason they are doing cash in hand us because this is below minimum wage
I would also report to 101 about it.
If you do wnat to keep the journey b id push for £40 for all that.
escapingfromelba@reddit
And HMRC asks them what tax reporting they did. The OP was in on dodging tax
Drug_Taker917@reddit
Until 5 days ago, minimum wage for this age was £10 an hour. I'm not saying they're in the right, at all but this entire comment section is giving bad advice by saying they're paying under minimum wage, when they weren't.
Naive_Reach2007@reddit
But they didn't put an age
Drug_Taker917@reddit
They have in comments, multiple times
PsychologicalRise368@reddit
They will surely claim she is self employed (albeit she isn't) and that min wage does not apply
Naive_Reach2007@reddit
Clearly she isn't as they are dictating terms and she is not involving them for work done, not having a contract of times on site etc..
Sadly this is a 90s thing before min wage
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
yeah im not sure, i only get a £100 a week, and im trying to save as much as i can, as ill do the odd bar shift for around 4 hours which is 10 an hour too
Dependent_Theme4210@reddit
Sorry to put this blankly but they are taking the piss out of you.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
no i agreeee, thats why im trying to look elsewhere as of now :,)
PsychologicalRise368@reddit
You are not self employed, there are certain badges of employment and you'd meet these. Just saying that what they would claim.
They are breaking the law.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
yeah it's typical, i think my struggle is being a student so i'm finding it really hard to seek jobs.
whatmichaelsays@reddit
If the employer is dictating the terms of the work, then that defence won't get them very far.
PsychologicalRise368@reddit
Yeah i agree stated that in my next post. They would meet the badges of employment.
Posideoffries92@reddit
I'll let the actual UK citizens answer, but if you work half an hour then you should be paid for that half hour of work.
Amazing-Visual-2919@reddit
You're getting paid £10 an hour?
Just look for any work elsewhere.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
i've applied to so many jobs and had no luck, im in a city with a major university so majority of places are hired up (i have applied to more today)
steveakacrush@reddit
Have you thought about being a domestic cleaner? Got mine through Facebook, I pay her £18.50 an hour. Just advertise your services.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
i haven't no, i'm assuming she cleans your house for you? that sounds terrific!
steveakacrush@reddit
Yep, an hour and a half each week. She does the kitchen , bathroom, lounge and halls (we take care of our own bedrooms).
After a couple of months one of my neighbours hired her too. She now has a number of clients working 3 hours a day 4 days a week - that's £234 a week.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
okay thank you!
Amazing-Visual-2919@reddit
Care work?
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
would that require any qualifications do you know? i wasn't so sure just incase i needed like care qualifications
Amazing-Visual-2919@reddit
You just need a DBS check and the right to work.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you!! thats handy, how would i go about care work? is it just emailing?
TrumpGrabbedMyCat@reddit
Picked a random city so I don't dox myself but just edit the location to your area and the word filter, if necessary.
https://findajob.dwp.gov.uk/search?q=care&loc=80934
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you so much!
TrumpGrabbedMyCat@reddit
No worries, best of luck. Hopefully ACAS can give you some good advice on getting justice for the owner of that pub as well. If not for you, for the next young person they take advantage of.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
certainly!! thank you so much
PM-me-your-cuppa-tea@reddit
Look at an app like housekeep or wecasa then build a portfolio of private cleaning clients.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thats handy!! ttyyy
FewAnybody2739@reddit
Assuming you're being paid NMW (which you aren't), they should be paying you 1.5hrs for the 1.5hrs.
They're paying you cash so they can exploit you, and are relying on you either being too desperate to say no, or not know any better. Chipping bits off is them finding out how much they can exploit you, which is ridiculous because they were already getting a criminally good deal.
Two hours to clean an entire pub is very impressive. If you're struggling to find other work, have you tried offering your older/busier neighbours to clean their homes?
Drug_Taker917@reddit
They were paying NMW, until it changed 5 days ago. I'm not saying they're in the right at all, but this entire comment section seems to have overestimated how much minimum wage is
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
hello! and yes, i agree with that, which is poor, i was desperate for money so i took up the job; as of now, i live in student accom so there isn't any neighbours around me, just takeaways which have all said they are busy </3
Jolly-Bandicoot7162@reddit
Work slower - take the full 2 hours.
Unfortunately family run pubs can be a bit shit. I worked in one as a student - I was paid until 11.30pm even if I was there until 11.50. Previously I had worked in places where it was in 15 minute increments and rounded up. So being young and dumb (and honestly not really caring as I was about 5 minutes away from starting my career anyway) instead of using my words I just started leaving at 11.30. Got let go 2 werks later. 😂
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you! im sure you can relate in someway, and yeah, its tough, did you ever find another job where you uni was?
Jolly-Bandicoot7162@reddit
This was mid to late 90s, so with no tuition fees and just as grants were still there but tapering down, many students didn't work and jobs were plentiful. I had a job whenever I wanted one. Factories and my old café job during holidays, a stint in a health shop, uni bar etc. That particular rubbish bar job was during my post-grad and in the summer before starting my permanent job I did an office job.
It seems a lot tougher now. My teen is after a Saturday job, but between the rigid rules that have been brought in for under 18s since I was a teen and our area having a uni, they are struggling to find anything.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
oh wow okay! i might ask the uni union if they have any jobs going at the student bar maybe, ll get paid better there lol.
yeah defo!! its really hard to find jobs unfortunately.
Jolly-Bandicoot7162@reddit
Uni bar was the best job I ever had! Collegiate uni, so each college had its own bar and its own bar manager who appointed their own staff from within that college. Nearly empty during the week, got loads of essay work done while being paid, and the bar manager would see me putting it away when someone came me and tell me he would serve them because my uni work was more important!
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
oh wowww, thats amazing, ill have to speak to them after my 2 weeks off when we're back, but thats really helpful!!
witdim@reddit
They're paying cash-in-hand for a reason. Find another job.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
i've applied to so many jobs and had no luck, im in a city with a major university so majority of places are hired up (i have applied to more today)
witdim@reddit
Yeah, "Find another job" was probably not the best thing to say. It's really tough out there at the moment.
It's a bit of work to set up, but have you considered working for yourself?
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
i've never thought of it no, aha, i'm not sure what i'd do (unless you mean like a cleaning business for myself or something)
witdim@reddit
I'm sure there are people out there that would pay you to clean their house if you advertised yourself as a cleaner. I think they'd rather employ someone direct than use an agency. It's not much but it's something to think about.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
yeah, ive just posted on some local facebook groups about it!
PabloMarmite@reddit
I remember you from the other week. You don’t have a contract and are getting paid below minimum wage, so you basically have no rights and are going to get screwed. Family run or not, businesses have to obey the law. But on the other hand, if an employer pays you for two hours, you’re expected to be there for two hours. Work like this isn’t “by the job”. And normally, a contract specifies this, but you don’t have one.
So, your alternatives are either find a proper job where you have a contract and defined work, or accept you’re there at their grace and do what they want you to do.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
hi yes! i took everyones advice and ive been doing that exactly, and at times ive spent longer than two hours. im not sure if indeed is the best place to look, if you could recommend elsewhere i would appreciate that, i also have been handing my CV in to places but had nothing back.
PabloMarmite@reddit
See if your town has a local pubs/bars forum on facebook or the like, you might have more luck with that, or asking pubs directly. But at least you’ve learned never to take a job without a contract.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
yeah ill demand a contract this time, aha
zxo-zxo-zxo@reddit
You get paid for 2 hours of cleaning. If you are done, find other ways to look like you are busy till 2hours are up.
If it takes longer than 2 hours, they should pay you. 30mins of cleaning is £5.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank you! and yeah, i will do!
helloperoxide@reddit
You could get an actual job as a cleaner and be paid more. Thats atrocious.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thats the worst bit aha!! im still looking on indeed right now, and the gov website.
refundpackage@reddit
In cleaning, adhoc jobs are just that. You don’t do them every time you’re doing the cleaning because they simply don’t need doing. I think you are doing more than enough for the time and wage. They’re trying to scam you further by not paying, if they only want to pay you for the time you’re there, it’s 1.5 hours not 1 (or whatever time you spend there) If you want to keep the job, just stretch your jobs to last the 2 hours. Just take your time but still do a good job.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
thank u!
budgiebirdman@reddit
Take a dump in one of the tills and never come back.
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
AHAH, perhaps
Witty_Entry9120@reddit
Both of you need to walk away.
I imagine you're not reporting this income to HMRC are you? So you're engaging in tax evasion.
The pub are just as guilty.
So just walk away and spend the time finding a proper job.
EyeAware3519@reddit
I pay my cleaner double that
Impossible-Fox4995@reddit (OP)
honestly i feel like what i do is thorough enough and the photos ive took are immaculate, not sure
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