So Veronica Mars is a horrible person, right?
Posted by MI6Monkey@reddit | Xennials | View on Reddit | 40 comments
I'm the most elder of Xennial (78). The show came out when I was a young adult, and I loved her, she was smart and sassy. The writing was Buffy level good.
Now rewatching for probably the 4th time, I'm realizing how horrible Veronica is. She treats her friends like shit and her boyfriends' even worse.
She's basically the only young person in the entire series who has at least one parent who loves and supports her (to a goddamn fault) but apparently her mom checking out for reasons is more important than any and all incredible trauma anyone else has gone thru in her cohort.
She is horrible! How did we Stan her!?
OneHumanBill@reddit
I'm an even more elder elder of Xennial (1977), and I have no idea who Veronica Mars is.
MI6Monkey@reddit (OP)
I am asking the following in good faith, and not in a troll-type fashion: What leads people to comment like this on stuff they do not know about? I mean, you can Google "who/what is Veronica Mars?" just as easily as typing this comment. This is something I've always wondered, and haven't wanted to ask because I don't want to come off as an asshole (so please know that's not my intention). But it would be like me commenting on a post about something baseball...well, ever...it's not my wheelhouse, I know nothing about it, and I have nothing to comment that would add value.
As said below, we were not the target audience, but at the time I needed something to sort of wean me off of Buffy, which had ended the year before. I think of all of it as smart fluff, which, as a 26-year-old with a myriad of work bullshit, relationship bullshit, and family bullshit (like most of us at that time), desperately needed in her life to unwind.
OneHumanBill@reddit
You know what? It's a fair question. And typically I'm annoyed with the kind of thing I just posted too. Double standards, thy name is Bill on this one.
I actually did a Google search before I responded. It rang no bells. That took me by surprise.
I think why this one passed through my "don't make stupid responses" filter was on two points, one, it seemed that OP felt that this was a universal Xennial experience, and I was here to say that I've heard of Veronica's Closet, and I was still involved in pop culture back then and I typically remember even shows that I never saw, or at least that they existed. My wife and I watched a lot of TV in those days. I was wondering if maybe this was a Canadian thing. That happens a lot in this subreddit, where somebody posts about what they believe to be one of those common Xennial things but that it's regional, and I was teasing out a stalking horse to see if maybe that was the case. Apparently not.
Secondly, the other reason was that they were claiming that 78 is the "eldest of the Xennials", and I was subtextually telling them to "Hold your horses, junior." Silly and petty? Yeah, but so is Reddit a lot of the time, and at least this time it was meant in good humor.
MI6Monkey@reddit (OP)
As the OP, yes, sometimes I have an issue with overgeneralizing the Xennial shared lived experience, especially in media. Probably because I see so many posts about the shows/music/general crap that I was also into here. But that could also be because the Venn diagram of the sort of people that watched Buffy, Veronica Mars, etc., over whatever was on the major channels (Friends, the early years of reality TV), and currently terminally online Reddit adults is basically a circle.
And yes, you are older than me, and you can absolutely enjoy your 49th birthday this year. LOL.
Thank you for giving me a thoughtful response; it was 50/50 if I was going to get flamed or not.
OneHumanBill@reddit
Yeah no problem! And that's where I'm really confused because my then-wife and I were avid Buffy watchers right around then. And then Angel, Battlestar, Stargate in all flavors, other things. We watched a lot of stuff. I just don't recall that show at all. Next time I see her I'll ask if she has any recollection about it.
segacs2@reddit
It came out in 2004 and I didn't watch on the original run, 'cause, as you said, those of us in our mid-20s working full time were not really the target audience. Also, I don't think it aired here in Canada on the original run. I caught up with it a few years later on someone-or-other's recommendation and was an instant fan. The writing was incredibly smart, and the first season in particular had fantastic mysteries. (Also, kudos to the TWoP writers who recapped the show; they were fantastic.)
bony-tony@reddit
We were a little old for it (27 year olds working adult jobs weren't the UPN's target audience), but I ended up trying it a couple seasons in and it was fantastic.
I'll watch anything Kristen Bell is in, and that started with Veronica Mars.
Polymox@reddit
She played a horrible person in The Good Place, too.
bony-tony@reddit
A horribly wonderfully horrible person.
ComplexAny@reddit
Thought I was the only one
Ananzithespider@reddit
Veronica Mars is a Noir hero - and kindness and good interpersonal skills are not required of that kind of hero. A noir hero is tough, clever, cynical and is willing to be David to Goliath. Those are the confines of the genre. Also Neptune is a town with no heroes- even the most likable characters frequently act unethically and/or immorally. Wallace appears as the exception that proves the rule, and as the good person foil to Veronica’s rule breaking and dismissiveness.
Also, best friend murdered, ostracized, raped, abandoned by mom, and exposed to endless corruption and sometimes violence in her work before the age of 18 - that is a bonkers amount of trauma.
Also Kieth is not a good Dad - he is a loving Dad. But a good dad would have moved away after Lilly’s murder, to protect Veronica. A good dad would never let a child do any form of personal investigation work. But Kieth like Veronica valued the truth more than safety - even if that included putting his marriage and kid at risk.
A well written character has depth, complexity, and motivations that we, the audience, empathize with. They are not necessarily people who we would want to be friends with.
MI6Monkey@reddit (OP)
It is well done in the Noir trope for sure, and for some reason, I had never really looked at it through that lens, which is insane because you can't unsee it once you do. This has me thinking about why I am so bothered by Veronica being a generally not great person, but not a character like Harry Dresden (let's keep the magic aspect out of it) being...morally grey.
Here we are unpacking subconscious prejudices and ingrained gender norms via early 21st-century media!
daizles@reddit
Protagonist =/= good guy. The reason we loved Veronica Mars is because it was well written, had lots of plot twists and camp, and great actors. If you only watch media where the main character is a good person, you'll miss out on really great art that showcases flawed humans and complex situations.
Also- Keith Mars is my favorite character, hands down
MI6Monkey@reddit (OP)
This is a fair point, she is def an anithero protagonist. I think I was just really taken aback by how breathtakingly selfish she is this watch through. But also, most of us were selfish pieces of poop at the age she is in the show.
Also here all day everyday the the stanning of Keith Mars, TV dad for the ages!
garden__gate@reddit
She’s an amazing antihero.
Equal_Wait_1515@reddit
Keith Mars is top tier tv dad
Impressive-Cod-7103@reddit
When you put it that way she kinda reminds me of the Netflix version of Wednesday Addams.
ScreenSensitive9148@reddit
This sounds like a weird trend from TikTok. Like wtf are you talking about? That show had a more accurate depiction of class differences in high school than most I can think of. Not every character has to be saccharine sweet to be compelling.
trichotomy00@reddit
I wouldn’t want to be Veronica’s friend. She does you one favor one time, probably charges you for it, then never speaks to you again unless she wants something from you.
Apprehensive_Hat8986@reddit
Never watched it, so not doubt I'm missing something, but
Generally, kids losing a parent is a pretty traumatic event. More so if it's a suicide.
Again, I don't know the show, and if they're using trauma as a pissing contest, that's not good. But people struggling to be decent because of trauma is pretty standard humans being. Not an excuse, just the fact of what happens.
bcentsale@reddit
I never watched Veronica Mars. But the Seinfeld characters, who I was never under any as illusion to their horribleness, actually get more reprehensible upon each rewatch.
Reasonable-Wave8093@reddit
we all just liked Larry David.
bcentsale@reddit
His Steinbrenner is hilarious 🤣
jugdeesh@reddit
“ the pita pocket stops it from dripping!”
fluffhead77@reddit
I mostly agree, although I feel like Cosmo is only character that isn’t actually a bad person
Cross_22@reddit
I enjoyed the fact that they filmed it locally. The place where they confront the "E-string strangler" was a famous guitar store back in the day.
0215rw@reddit
I haven’t watched this. When did it come out?
I did watch the Good Place. Obviously.
LoveYerBrain2@reddit
Veronica Mars has been through so much more than just "mom checking out for reasons" and you're really downplaying her story. Neptune is full of morally corrupt characters, so Veronica is no saint, but she's definitely the protagonist of the story and she's definitely worth rooting for.
segacs2@reddit
This. Best friend murdered, raped, mom abandoned her, ostracized by the entire town. She's a teenager but has been seriously traumatized by the time we meet her. Then there's everything she goes through after that.
Yeah, she's occasionally selfish and not always honest. But she's usually on the side of what's right, and she has some serious strength to keep swinging after all that. Gotta love Veronica Mars.
Fair_Blood3176@reddit
I donno about that but her dad was a great man and he always makes me think of Just Shoot Me.
icy_sylph@reddit
Every time I see him in ANYTHING else, I always point out "That's Keith Mars!"
I'm sure my husband loves it.
segacs2@reddit
He's also Greg Parker on Flashpoint and I love both characters so much.
Secure_Bed_9110@reddit
Nah, that's forever Elliot DiMauro.
SunVoltShock@reddit
He is Mathazar, a great leader.
pir8salt@reddit
Nah I think having friends back then was just so you could be shitty to people, cant tell you now havnt had one in years
Western-Jump-63@reddit
Never watched Veronica Mars, but I did rewatch the show Daria recently and was surprised by how much I disliked Daria as an adult. To be fair, a lot of her faults fall to her being a teenager, but she suuuuucked. Her best friend Jane, by contrast, is an awesome character.
DizzyIzzy801@reddit
There are no good people on that show, everyone does truly horrible things! Except maybe Keith Mars, but even he teeters a lot.
XO, A Marshmallow
Vargen_HK@reddit
I haven’t seen the whole series, just a good chunk of season one.
It’s noir. Noir is full of horrible people. Comes with the genre.
Reasonable-Wave8093@reddit
Agree that the dad-daughter relationship was special—- the writing did seem to make Veronica relentlessly terrible, i only watched s1 & 2 and the movie, i didnt rlly care for S4 (tho not b/c of Logan), i just wonder why Veronica seemed to have no growth and was still super insecure after S1&2.
Keith was a great dad!
Halloween_Bumblebee@reddit
Sometime in the 90s being a snarky asshole became popular on TV shows and we now have decades of these types of characters behind us. I see this as coming out of Gen X nihilism and alienation, and as an Xennial I both love it and hate it. There are a few shows in the last decade that indicate we are trying to break this mold, thank goodness, as I am tired of hating every single character in a show. The good place is a great example of the shift in action, you have a bunch of people who are assholes who gradually become good over the course of the show.