What can be done about the growing energy cost divide?
Posted by Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 167 comments
The sun is out and the wind is blowing. Electricity prices are at £-40/GWh (negative, as in people on Octopus Agile get paid to use electricity), and anyone with solar panels is probably making money on export right now. Anyone with an EV is avoiding high petrol/diesel prices and maybe even getting paid to charge up.
But millions are still paying high prices for electricity and gas. They can't fit or can't afford solar. Can't charge an EV at home, can't afford one. Fitting a heat pump is unrealistic.
Worse still, the window for a lot of this is closing. As more people get solar panels, the amount that new people are allowed to export decreases. It's first come, first serve.
Balcony solar will help a bit, but it seems clear that people who have money are better placed to take advantage of this situation, and many will get stuck with increasing bills instead.
Is there anything that can be done?
Nirnroot_Enjoyer@reddit
More nuclear.
If France can operate as an energy exporter, why can't we?
It just requires a long term commitment from our government, and a willingness to wait 10+ years to see a return.
And while I love renewables, they require an ability to store the energy, in order to be reliable and consistent.
But unless we're able to move battery tech last a reliance on rare earth minerals, i don't see how this can be a long-term solution. It just seems like the 2.0 version of reliance on fossil fuels 🤷♂️
n0d3N1AL@reddit
What rare metals are you referring to? LFP (the most common type in cheaper EVs and basically all home batteries) are not made of rare metals AFAIK.
Nirnroot_Enjoyer@reddit
My mistake, lithium isn't considered a rare earth metal.
But it's still a finite resource, and proven to be quite volatile in the last few years.
harrywilko@reddit
Nuclearbros continue not to know what they're talking about.
mattl1698@reddit
we do export. not as often as france does but you do occasionally see the exports being higher than the imports. you can check the live stats of the national grid at grid.iamkate.com
Nirnroot_Enjoyer@reddit
Oh very cool, much appreciated!
Comfortable-Fall1419@reddit
Nuclear is dead due to the build times. 25 years min.
Rare Earths aren’t that rare and other battery tech exists.
Outrageous-Echo-765@reddit
The most common grid scale batteries, LPF, do not use any rare earth metals. But even so, a battery, when at the end of life, is recycled. Lithium is not burnt up into the atmosphere, it stays in the battery.
Car batteries can be 99% recycled, for example (12V).
Its easy to see how this is miles better from an energy security perspective
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Nuclear is very expensive for France though. They hide a lot of the cost by paying it out of general taxation instead of consumer energy prices, but they still pay it. Renewables are by far the cheapest and don't take 20+ years to deploy.
Besides which nuclear in the UK pushes prices up. Look at Hinkley Point C, the strike price is guaranteed at well above what renewables get. We have to pay it no matter what.
jonewer@reddit
The high cost and long build times of nuclear in the UK is a political choice, it's nothing inherent to the technology
It's a bit like saying trains are expensive and it takes a long time to build new lines, therefore we shouldn't build them
And, one tired of saying this, wind and solar are intermittent
memcwho@reddit
Yes. But it's typically doing one of them. Still and grey days are rare, and would still generate with both forms. And those days you rely on the storage you've also built.
What we should be doing is having such an incredible abundance of energy on days like today, with bright sun and lots of wind, that we can just waste the spare power on literally nothing. Just.... dump it into the sea or something. Like have a big pond of untreated sea water that we just periodically, when energy is too abundant and our steaks too juicy, make into the worlds largest cup of tea. Maybe install something viewed as obscenely wasteful in any system that is NOT post-energy-scarcity. Have banks of IR heaters on the outside of shops to tempt in customers. Or AC everywhere. Or supply our industry with cheaper fuel than China. Or Hydrogen production via desalination.
I'm a big nuclear guy. And I fully support dumping boatloads of cash into modern fission plants as well as R&D on fusion. But right now, we could actually probably solve* our issues** without it.
*Come close to.
**One of them.
jonewer@reddit
A still winters day would mean we need about 40GW at peak, lets say 30GW average.
So we'd need 720GWh of storage for that one day. If it continues into a second day, what then? And what if we hit a really big peak demand like >60GW. And what happens to the demand as we replace petrol and diesel with EV's, and gas CH and DWH with heat pumps?
How much is this storage going to cost?
rynchenzo@reddit
Storage should be at point of use, i.e peoples' homes.
The cost of Hinckley C would pay for a storage battery in every home in the UK.
Alert_Variation_2579@reddit
You use gas in those cases, but it will only run like 5% or less of the time.
The cost of gas plants is majority the fuel, not the upkeep so makes sense to have it as a reserve.
Otherwise the renewables will do the heavy lifting the majority of the time. We’re looking for good enough, not perfection.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Not political. It's due to the high safety requirements, the unique requirements of each installation, and the difficulty of the work. Not causing a nuclear disaster isn't really a political issue, it's a financial one. Fukushima is looking like costing around half a trillion pounds, for example.
Offshore wind can provide constant base load, and we have storage now.
jonewer@reddit
Insisting on ludicrous safety standards is entirely political (also a big reason why trains are so expensive)
Caused precisely one death from radiation.
It can't and we don't
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
They aren't ludicrous. They are proportional. Fukushima killed at least 50.
jonewer@reddit
Absolutely untrue. There is one (1) fatality from radiation at Fukushima
The safety regulations are absurd and explicitly put in place to make nuclear power prohibitively expensive, despite it being the safest, lowest carbon form of energy
Your OP was asking how we solved a problem and when presented with the solution you're making up numbers in your head to avoid the obvious solution
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
From radiation, but what about all the others due to the forced evacuation?
Why would any government deliberately make nuclear so expensive for no good reason? They seem bent on building it no matter the cost, so it makes no sense.
phatboi23@reddit
the area got hit with a tsunami.
evacuation would have happened anyways.
stewieatb@reddit
I'm rarely so angry with our succession of shithouse governments as when I think about Nick Clegg arguing against Hinckley Point C in 2011 on the basis that the energy wouldn't be available until 2025. Well here we fucking are in 2026 with an energy crisis and HPC is still a pile of concrete blocks.
Construction costs always go up faster than inflation. The best time to build something is always 10 years ago, but the second best time is always now.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
To be fair what actually screwed us was the Tories blocking development of wind resources. If we had cancelled Hinkley Point C and instead gone all in on wind and storage, we wouldn't be in this mess now.
And to be fair to Clegg, the reason Hinkley still isn't ready is because EDF can't built it any faster. It took so long to get funded, and we had to get the Chinese to invest, and then EDF had financial problems and had to be nationalized by the French government. Oh yeah, our new nuclear plants are French and Chinese owned. Not ideal.
stewieatb@reddit
The government could have invested in 2011 and started construction immediately. A nation should own its infrastructure; anything else is madness.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Not sure it would have been sensible to throw money at EDF in 2011. And it had to be EDF, nobody else would built it on any terms, and there are no UK builders anyway.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
So develop one and make it British State owned.
it's not like we lack the engineering talent pipeline.
stewieatb@reddit
Indeed. We've done it before (Magnox, AGR, Rolls-Royce PWR) and there's no reason we can't do it again other than "it's expensive".
EpochRaine@reddit
Yes but that would mean investing in UK people and their skills.
Don't be so fucking stupid.
We don't do that in the UK - it isn't just companies that fail to invest in people, very few Government or Local Government departments do it either.
You're lucky if you get an NVQ L3...
daniluvsuall@reddit
To be fair we need both. Nuclear is excellent low carbon base load, it can replace gas peaker plants. But as others have said, it’s very expensive to build now - doesn’t mean we shouldn’t just that chronic short termism again.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Nuclear can't replace gas peakers because it is very slow to ramp up and down. Storage replaces gas peakers.
daniluvsuall@reddit
Turning it on its head though, if it’s stable base load then that adds capacity that renewables could then wrap around? Tackle it the other way around
SaltyName8341@reddit
Silver lining is we didn't use US funding
Dapper_Car5038@reddit
This is the big problem, Politicians. They are so concerned with filling their own pockets and getting the plaudits and praise for themselves with short term wins that they would never commit to a project that will see the benefit for the people down the line. Westminster is corrupt to the core, gone are the time when successful people went into politics to serve the people and make change, its all incompetent people straight out out of school with no life experience or knowledge on how things works desperately trying to make as much cash as they can and getting out
Ok_Schedule8095@reddit
Hinkley point C has a CFD price if it launched today for around £127 a mwh. The price today is £96 a mwh. Nuclear is the most expensive form of electricity.
jonewer@reddit
Because we made a deliberate and conscious choice to make it the most expensive
Ok_Schedule8095@reddit
That is the price we had to pay to get a company to build and operate it.
SuperHansDunYourMum@reddit
The UK didn't want the cost of the plant on the books, so they just offered to pay a shitty rate instead. Finland can operate its plants at less than a third of the rate that is paid in the UK.
Milam1996@reddit
10 years is a pipe dream. Hinkley is projected for 2030 which would be 14 years and that’s far from guaranteed.
bacon_cake@reddit
Didn't Cameron and Clegg poo poo a nuclear power station because it wouldn't have been ready until 2022?
Organic_Stay3726@reddit
Even if there were significant improvements in future nuclear projects versus the ongoing ones, you’re still looking at years and billions of pounds spent before any new project starts delivering power. The same money put into renewables and storage will start to deliver power much sooner and more output per pound invested.
Stationary battery storage is already starting to head towards sodium ion cells and where lithium ion cells are used they are generally the formulations like LFP which require relatively little in the way of problem minerals
merryman1@reddit
We are starting to again currently. We have massively ramped up renewables production and increased grid connections to Europe. 2023 was the first time we'd been an electricity exporter in over 40 years.
daniluvsuall@reddit
Loads of storage tech that isn’t lithium batteries. Sodium batteries, gravity, heat batteries.
witdim@reddit
I wouldn't say fitting a heat pump is unrealistic. We had the heat pump, new radiators, piping, and a load of solar panels fitted for free.
geniusgravity@reddit
"Free."
witdim@reddit
Yes, free. That's what a grant is.
blatchcorn@reddit
It's not free, it's tax payer funded
Jo3Pizza22@reddit
Do you have a household income below £36k a year? I don't see how you get all of that for free if not.
Median household income in the UK was £55k in 2024. Most people will not be eligible for what you got, and most people also cannot afford it on their own. As with everything else in this country, the poorest get given it for free, the richest can afford it comfortably, and everyone in the middle is left to struggle.
witdim@reddit
Yes, our household income is below £36k p/a.
Obscure-Oracle@reddit
Do you not find it really expensive to run? Our friends have just moved into a new build with a heat pump last summer, they are in a small two bed house the same as ours. They are finding it astronomically expensive to hold the house at a comfortable temperature for the baby through the winter. They shut off the Central heating part of the system and have bought oil filled radiators instead which they say bought their electric costs down dramatically. Even still they are paying about 25% more than us for energy in our 1950s house with a decent Glow worm boiler.
nivlark@reddit
There is no situation in which a heat pump should cost more than resistive heaters (which is all oil filled radiators are). Your friends are either mistaken or something is wrong with their heat pump's installation.
Whether they save money relative to gas heating is a more difficult question. At the moment, with electricity prices so often dictated by the marginal cost of gas, all you really save is the gas standing charge.
Obscure-Oracle@reddit
They have had it checked over by independent installers as well as those who installed it under a warranty claim, apparently it's working as it should be were told that they are simply trying to run it at too high room temperature, they have it set at 19c. My friend is an electrician by trade so he ran tests on it and said when it's being used for heating and water it's drawing between 50-60amps which is insane. The only way they have been able to run it efficiently is by having the room stats set to 16c but that is too cold for baby and the radiators only get Luke warm. They are using two little oil filled radiators instead and have found it far cheaper to heat that way.
nivlark@reddit
As I said, something is wrong with the install. Most likely, the radiators are undersized for the lower flow temperatures a heat pump uses. This is a problem with many modern gas boilers too, but by sacrificing efficiency you can push past it, whereas with a heat pump it's critical to size them correctly. A good installer is well aware of this but unfortunately there are a lot of cowboys out there that just whack them in to get the grant money.
Obscure-Oracle@reddit
Must be, I guess it's just trying to find out what it is. They have had a couple of different companies check over it but they can't find an issue with the install. Too large radiators maybe?
Euan_whos_army@reddit
I'm maybe going over old ground for your friends but it is worth it if this happens to be the issue.
If it's a new build the insulation in the house is likely to have been good and the size of radiators and pipes is in all likelihood correct, if they have had people in to check, so I suspect operator error.
For a start they probably need to be on one of the off-peak electricity tariffs or a heat pump specific tariff. This will give them cheap power when they need it. They should heat water during this time, as this can be stored all day for showers baths etc. they should not be heating water outside of these off-peak periods unless something has gone wrong and they need a top up.
Next they need to set the temp they want for all the time. A lot of people turn the heating down overnight or when they leave the house. With a heat pump set to 21 all day every day and all night. Now it is probably going to take time to get up to temperature and bring the fabric of the house up to that temperature, but you only do it once, unless you leave the house for several days of course. Then the heat pump should just trip on and off all day, but is unlikely to run full time.
Lastly they are probably far more aware of their energy costs now than they ever have been, so they are possibly looking at the costs and going "holy fuck", but even with gas heating a home in winter is a £250 a month exercise. Electricity is likely £62 a month and standing charge £15 a month. Add all that together and their bill may be £325 a month in winter, which looks horrendous. But is actually fairly normal.
Obscure-Oracle@reddit
Thanks for your time, that is correct and what they have been doing. Setting the temperature to 19c and leaving it on so it maintains the temperature all day and night, I believe his hot water heats up during the cheaper tariff. I think it's the instant heat they are used to with gas central heating that they need when getting home. He said when they get home in the evening they open the door to get the pushchair, baby, shopping etc and the heat just disappears and the house gets cold then the system works harder to get the temperature back up. They had a 2 bed rental house before so they were used to the energy costs with electric and gas for a similar property. I'm not sure what they are doing wrong but I know they were getting quite frustrated with the system that they had high hopes for, maybe he is just doing it all wrong, I don't know but I shall forward him your reply in case it of help to him.
Euan_whos_army@reddit
I suspect there is a bit of a perception issue with them, i.e. the new system they are not used to and looking for problems or anything that seems off is getting blamed on the new system. For example, I live in the north of Scotland and opening a door to get a pushchair and shopping in is not going to allow all the heat from the house to escape. You need to wait a couple of minutes for the temperature to equalise, but that's it. What I would say is, 19 is not room temperature, if you are sitting watching TV most people will be cold below 21 or 22. So they need to be setting the temperature higher. I totally get the frustration with the lack of instant heat, again I think there is a perception issue there. When your heating comes on, it's nice to feel that blast of heat, they are never going to get that, but they should be living in a world where they just don't notice heat anymore.
How long have they been in? Is that their first winter?
Obscure-Oracle@reddit
Yes this has been their first winter with the system, through the end of summer and autumn they found it awesome but as the outside temperature dropped is when they started noticing the electric cost spiral a lot more than expected. They are ok again now without using the oil radiators and have gone back to using the system as intended.
Euan_whos_army@reddit
Would be interesting to know if it's been colder this year than most years in their area. Without knowing the exact system they use, the coefficient of performance of heat pumps goes below 3 at around zero Celsius. This is where heat pumps lose money v gas, as gas is approx 4 times cheaper than electricity, which I'll never understand why that is! But once you are up to CoP of 5 you start saving money and that will happen around 10 or 12 degrees from memory.
Obscure-Oracle@reddit
We have had a lot of time around 0c this winter down south but nothing too extreme, a few -5c nights but it's been generally quite mild the past few years. I haven't a clue which system they have. Gas is cheaper because there is no energy loss in conversion. With electric being based on the gas fired plants which are only around 60% efficient so 40% is lost through converting the heat to electricity, then add grid losses through voltage drop and and the losses involved at the consumer converting electricity to heat it ends up being far more expensive Vs piping the gas directly to properties. Burning gas for heat in a gas boiler is far more efficient than using electricity generated by a gas fired power station. Of course once we are fully transitioned onto green energy then it becomes an entirely different story and the argument for efficiency of burning fossil fuels becomes irrelevant.
EngineeringCockney@reddit
And this is why i installed gas
witdim@reddit
We were on gas originally but we thought it too expensive and unsafe.
EngineeringCockney@reddit
What COP do you get?
I design large scale systems and the benefit is only ever in carbon reduction given the disparity in electricity and gas costs
lunarpx@reddit
Surely if you have a battery, and heat your hot water tank overnight, a heat pump works out as way more cost-effective.
It's at cost parity without those factors and a COP of 3.5-4.
EngineeringCockney@reddit
Given electric is about 24p/kw while gas is 3.5p/kw you need a cop of around 7 and thats excluding standing losses associated with hot water
lunarpx@reddit
Oh wow, my gas is 6p and my overnight rate is 3.5p. So for my use case a heat pump, with a cop of 3.5, is about 7x more cost effective than a gas boiler with 90% efficiency.
Have I calculated that right, or am I missing something?
EngineeringCockney@reddit
Insane values not representative of the UK market
lunarpx@reddit
I'm on Intelligent Octopus Go, which is a fairly standard tariff isn't it?
Not trying to argue with you, just thinking about a HP and curious if my numbers are right.
ParsnipFlendercroft@reddit
What a load of rubbish. You need a COP of around 7 if you switch from gas to grid electricity only. OP has a load of solar panels too.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
How did you wrangle that?
witdim@reddit
There are government grants available.
That_Organization901@reddit
Would someone in a block of flats be able to access these grants and get them fitted?
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Doubtful. Where would you even put solar? Most of the other stuff is going to depend on the generosity of the freeholder and management company.
Balcony solar will help, assuming you have a balcony and it gets some sun.
nivlark@reddit
The grants are only for air-to-water heat pumps, which aren't really suitable for flats (you need outside floor space). Likewise solar is only an option if you're on the top floor and the freeholder agrees to let you use the roof.
You can get air-to-air heat pumps instead, which have the added bonus that they work as air conditioning in the summer. They're cheaper but you're probably still looking at £3-5k including installation. I'm seriously considering going this route if/when my old gas boiler dies.
h00dman@reddit
Your post could be interpreted as "We had it all for free."
I recently had a quote for a heat pump that required new radiators and fittings etc, and with the government subsidy it was still £6.5 k for me to pay.
witdim@reddit
We had it all for free is exactly what my post is saying.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Which is nice for you, but an unusual case.
merryman1@reddit
Can you not get a loan to cover that?
Familiar_Swan_662@reddit
If the government paid for it, they did get it all for free
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Sure but they don't get you a free heat pump, free new radiators, free pipework, and free solar panels. Unless maybe you qualify due to disability or something.
witdim@reddit
Yes they do. At least they did 2 years ago.
Gisschace@reddit
I’m a bog standard 2 bed terrace with modern radiators and even with the grant it would’ve set me back £6k to have that fitted.
witdim@reddit
It's worth checking if you're entitled to a grant.
Gisschace@reddit
I’m not, I’ve checked. I am not on any benefits and my house isn’t rated low enough to be eligible.
neilm1000@reddit
Disconnecting the price of electricity from the price of gas is the immediately obvious first step followed by a sharp reduction in policy costs (I know these have largely moved to general taxation). There are some downsides to this.
Few-Proposal-4681@reddit
But how though?
BanChri@reddit
Just do it. Don't ask how, don't think about why we haven't already, don't think about what the immediately consequences will be or think about the various actors involved and how they'll respond, just do it. The end goal is a good thing, so just blindly doing it without a proper understanding is therefore a good idea.
God I wish Chesterton's fence was literally real, just so I could electrify it and morons like this might actually get Pavloved into thinking critically.
Few-Proposal-4681@reddit
Wha do you mean just do it and don’t ask how? That makes absolutely no sense. You need to know how in order to make it happen.
BanChri@reddit
I was being sarcastic, taking the piss out of the people who don't have any "how". I thought I was laying it on thick even without the Chesterton's fence bit, but apparently not.
Few-Proposal-4681@reddit
My bad, I hadn’t heard of Chesterton's fence. But even with the sarcasm I still think it’s off the mark. Because you’re still implying we could pay less for energy but we just don’t fully understand the consequences.
Whereas I’m saying how the fuck do we pay less for energy even if we wanted to.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Disconnecting prices from gas makes sense, but nuclear? It takes 20+ years to build and both the current on-going projects are guaranteed extremely high prices for the energy they produce.
They are pushing prices up, not down. You would have to decouple the electricity price from nuclear as well, and then nobody would built it because it's not economical to do so without the guaranteed hefty profits.
BanChri@reddit
No they aren't. HPC has a CfD, but Sizewell doesn't. In fact the completion of SWC will lower HPC's strike price. Nuclear is not actually that expensive relative to anything else once you've got the skills and supply chains going, if we keep building it then the price will fall substantially, estimates range from 30% to 50% reduction for NOAK vs FOAK.
Parshath_@reddit
Just to tackle this recurring argument people bring: if something positive takes 20 years, that means that the #1 best time to have started would have been 20 years ago, the #2 best time is right now.
Otherwise, someone in 20 years will still be moaning "Let's not do this as it will take 20 years to get done." Plus looking at inflation trends, it might cost 2-3x more in 2046.
HellPigeon1912@reddit
I get your point but wouldn't the second best time have been 19 years and 364 days ago?
EssentialParadox@reddit
No. The second best point would’ve actually been 19 years 364 days 23 hours 59 minutes 59 seconds and 999,999 microseconds ago.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
But nuclear isn't positive, it's one of the most expensive. The goal is to get the cost down, not push it up. There's also the not insignificant problem of dealing with the waste.
Parshath_@reddit
How does that compare objectively, cost-wise, environment friendliness, reliability, end-user value with "Let's have our entire lifestyle be dependent on fossil fuels subject to whatever happens in the Middle East aka the most unstable region in the planet"
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
What a weird question. We have seen fossil fuel use fall as renewable generation increases, and nuclear is still being built. Why do you think that is?
Beartato4772@reddit
It's the most environmentally friendly and sustainable of the "Produces constant power whatever the conditions" systems.
daniluvsuall@reddit
The short term mindset is an absolute scourge on society.
No-Championship9542@reddit
The projection is 9-10p a kWh for nuclear production from Sizewell C, whic is slightly cheaper than the 12pish you get from gas. Obviously though you need on demand power and that's the best available option.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
No it isn't. The strike price was agreed at £92.50/MWh in 2012 prices, rising with inflation. So it's already up to £134.78, and will continue to go up every year.
For comparison, offshore wind is around £91.20/MWh in 2026 prices. It doesn't increase with inflation. Onshore is of course much cheaper than that.
No-Championship9542@reddit
134.78 mwh is 12pish per kWh, also no nuclear costs drop once the construction costs are paid off, theoretically our already built plants are like 5p a kWh to run.
Aye and that's of course amazing assuming it is windy, it obviously has a place but you need a sizeable amount of "on demand power" to fill in when required. I have solar and with my batteries my electricity has been free most of this month, winter though was shit and didn't get fuck all. Tidal is the only renewable with complete consistency and tbh it's pretty good but it's also really expensive, more than nuclear expensive.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
It's exactly 13.478p/kWh. The difference is exactly x1000.
The cost will never drop, it will continue to increase forever, because that's the deal they had to do to get new nuclear build. Guaranteed minimum price for the energy produced, no need to ramp down when demand is low and supply is high, and it increases with inflation for the lifetime of the plant.
Offshore wind has a certain base level of consistent output, because the wind never stops blowing offshore over a wide area.
No-Championship9542@reddit
Well that does assume constant inflation, which wasn't true for almost two decades, the price can equally deflate away.
Wind droughts still occur, fairly commonly in fact, it is efficient and cheap sure but given power demand is going to in fact be going up bigly and probably be heavier throughout the day (air source heat pumps, AC will become more popular, electric cars, data centres, etc, etc) we need big, reliable plants that can generate a fuck tonne of electricity reliably on demand. So the choice is nuclear, coal, gas or oil, nuclear is the best option by far.
TheTackleZone@reddit
The issue is a purely mathematical one.
Let's say energy in the grid is being generated by solar at 4p, wind at 6p, nuclear at 10p, and gas at 15p per unit.
Today is a sunny windy day, so 30% comes from solar, 50% from wind, 15% from nuclear, and 5% from gas.
How much should it cost? Well a weighted average of those prices at those generation ratios would come to 6.5p per unit of electric.
Now how much does the UK charge people for it? 15p.
The price is set at the production cost of the highest production cost. We use one flicker of gas and everyone paya the gas price. Even people who are on "100% renewable suppliers" pay the gas price.
So I agree, nuclear should be paid what they need to build, supply, and make a profit. But at the ratio of what they supply. Put an infrastructure levy on top - still cheaper than the current bonkers system we have.
vishbar@reddit
The price essentially is decoupled. Most renewables are priced via CfD.
Honestly, most of the crowing about marginal pricing on Reddit comes from people without a strong understanding of the energy market and who lack understanding of economic fundamentals. The problem with our grid is a physical one, not a financial one
Milam1996@reddit
Decoupling from gas would be a horrendously bad idea. We need it to incentivise renewables which incentivise cheaper energy via CFD’s.
neilm1000@reddit
Hence why I said downsides.
Milam1996@reddit
My point is that decoupling from gas wouldn’t absolutely not in anyway shape or farm reduce electricity prices. It would raise them horrendously.
lunarpx@reddit
Nationwide offer a 0% loan to all their mortgage customers to buy solar/batteries.
The BUS grant will likely cover most of the installation cost of a heat pump in a smaller home.
A used Nissan Leaf is dirt cheap.
Renewable energy is actually more affordable to normal people than most of us realise.
Gisschace@reddit
This is great if you’re in your property for a long time, but if you’re in a property for less than 10 years then it’s not worth it. Basically a lot of housing stock will never be upgraded this way as it’s not worth it
Pencil_Queen@reddit
We added £12k to our mortgage 20odd years ago to pay for solar (subsidised with an extra £7k in a government grant).
The panels were going to pay for themselves in 15 years at prices at the time.
They paid for themselves in 5 years. We upgraded the panels about 5 years ago for less than £5k because the technology and efficiency has improved so much and the costs dropped.
When we did it everyone we told about it thought it was a waste of money. I can't recommend it enough - especially if lenders are now offering 0% loans it's a huge no brainer.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Looked at heatpumps, even with the BUS grant it would still be around £7k. Leaf with a knackered battery isn't suitable as most people's only car.
The Nationwide offer is decent, assuming their general mortgage rates are reasonable too.
Gisschace@reddit
You’re right and it’s something people are concerned about and discussing. It’s the squeezed middle where our income and houses aren’t that bad enough to get these things for free, nor do we have the income to pay for them when we have lots of other things to pay for.
TremendousCustard@reddit
Bang on. Responded in another coast that people don't even have a couple of thousand to hand, let alone thr 6/7k for solar panels or that and above for a secondhand EV.
(My partner and I are both on 28k before tax, mortgage has gone silly already...)
The reply was "They're getting cheaper every year." While everything else is climbing. Tone deaf....
Gisschace@reddit
Yeah also the fact that I’m not in my forever home yet, I can get interest free finance over 10 years but I’m not planning on being here for that long.
For everyone in a starter home, like one of the 7.5 mill 2 bed terraces in this country, it’s going to need someone to invest the money
Nice_Back_9977@reddit
Who do you think is getting EVs and solar panels for free?
saswir@reddit
The low earners who have their lives subsidised by others
Gisschace@reddit
I’m talking in general about grants and subsidies, the current ECO4 scheme is available to those on low income and whose properties have a low rating.
lunarpx@reddit
https://www.gov.uk/apply-warm-homes-local-grant
TremendousCustard@reddit
Commented on another post to point out an EV and/or solar panels require several thousand pounds each. At least.
Reply was "Yes, they're getting cheaper every year".
Lovely but that doesn't help.
Dull-Addition-2436@reddit
Use less energy, which all should be doing
Cheapntacky@reddit
Why are you assuming people that can't afford to buy solar are going to face higher prices? You're concerns don't make sense to me.
Surely if there is a surplus of supply that helps everyone. We still need resources to smooth out demand but the current situation means solar pays for itself quicker and so makes it affordable for more people.
Mandating solar on new builds and more widespread adoption will slowly push it into the rental market.
Heat pumps aren't practical if your home is poorly insulated. But poor insulation increases your costs regardless of home you heat it cool your home.
Homes with expensive fuel costs are less attractive to renters and buyers so savings can come from other sources.
Wealthier people will always benefit first. It's one of the joys of capitalism.
"...the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet." Terry Pratchett
Okhlahoma_Beat-Down@reddit
Nuclear.
It's quite literally the best option. Every single argument against it is decades out of date.
Every policy decision against it boils down to "Don't you know how EXPENSIVE that would be?", said by a government who has quite literally earmarked billions to be send abroad for their 'green energy' projects.
Another key aspect would be removing the innate corruption of the system; I'm fairly sure the Energy Minister's brother running a 'green energy' company that receives massive government subsidies has something to do with why Ed Miliband literally buried nuclear fuel and refuses to drill for our own oil during this absolutely chaotic period of rising costs.
There's a lot going on and it's all tying together to form a massive problem, but the majority of it comes down to dug-in liars within the government and energy sector who are trying to save their own sorry hides.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
What are these billions being sent abroad? And did you know that all our new nuclear is built by EDF (French) with Chinese money?
Okhlahoma_Beat-Down@reddit
There's an existing pledge to spend £11.6 billion on International Climate Finance (ICF) between 2021/22 and 2025/26.
The estimated cost in a western country for a reactor is apparently $6,000,000,000 to $15,000,000,000, but sites like Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C are plagued by the same kind of planning problems and financial waste issues as HS2 was.
I would argue that money should not be spent on foreign nations' energy problems when the massive issues with UK energy supply have been well-known for a very long time.
One of the other things that would massively need to be straightened out is the sheer level of middle-management corruption and cronyism that exists, as well as the lack of accountability within these kinds of massive projects.
Realistically, the people responsible for HPC and SC and HS2 should all have been dragged in front of the public and questioned heavily about where all the money's going, but we all know that the answer is one that the public isn't going to like, so they're not going to do that.
n0d3N1AL@reddit
The market needs to be more "free" rather than being manipulated by gas prices. If I have excess solar, I should be able to sell it for what it's worth. Currently Intelligent Flux is very profitable for me even though I have an EV, but on a day like today where prices on Agile are negative it stings to be paying 20p/kWh. I think what needs to happen is that Agile should become the norm, but instead of the insane discrepancy between import and export prices (Agile Export is a joke tbh, never understood the appeal of being ripped off), the export and import prices should be symmetric. That way those with excess energy can export at a fair price when it's best for the grid to balance things out. The fact is that renewable energy is both cheap and plentiful but the way electricity market is set up in UK is incredibly inefficient and basically exists to prop up oil and gas industry rather than encouraging more renewable energy. There's no shortage, only poor allocation and incentives.
audigex@reddit
We needed to mandate heat pumps and solar panels on new houses a decade ago
Doing it now will help in future, at least
The government are also making it legal to use small scale DIY solar panels: we’re talking about £300 from IKEA and you screw them to your garden fence rather than £7000 for scaffolding and a dozen panels on your roof. You get less power from it, but it can cover your house’s base load and make a difference
Fundamentally we need to reduce reliance on fossil fuels, that’s all there is to it
_a_m_s_m@reddit
Along with sorting out public transport (e.g. Deutschland ticket etc.) & land use planning, cycling ought to looked into. The oil crisis of the 70’s was a major push for the Netherlands to pursue bicycles as a method of transport. Given that 70% of trips are under 5 miles, with the right leadership & infrastructure investment, this trip length could be a huge cost, carbon, health & time benefit for country.
Hell, cycling for transport was seriously considered during the 70’s oil crisis in the UK as well.
This part is for the British exceptionalism enthusiasts:
-Gears & these new fangled electric bicycles have been invented, negating nearly all hills.
-Water proof clothing such as overtrousers have been invented. Also I can assure you it rains all the time in the Netherlands as well.
-Pannier racks & bags can easily carry ~30kg, many are also water resistant. I can fit my weekly shop in a pair.
-Cargo bikes can be used to transport more goods in urban areas, as they already are in many cities in Europe. Increasingly in London too.
-Cargo bikes are frequently used to transport kids in the Netherlands, so could also help out families.Or for moving larger things.
-Cycling for shorter journeys & using other methods for longer ones is what a lot of people in the Netherlands already do. I’m not expecting people to cycle from Basidon to London! Directly translating to fuel, depreciation & maintenance savings for an individual who also drives.
-The modern safety bicycle (i.e. every “normal” looking bike) was literally invented in Coventry!
aembleton@reddit
Move electricity costs into income tax. This will mean that electricity is free at the point of use for everyone, making us all equal.
It will also disincentivise roof top solar but that will be necessary if you want to close the gap. Anything else will require providing incentives to invest in roof top solar which will open up the divide.
External-Piccolo-626@reddit
Add to this EV charging. Can afford a house with a driveway and you get cheaper charging.
peidinho31@reddit
Well CEOs prefer to produce cheaply and sell expensive it. We have very expensive electricity in the UK
NoChanceItsHer@reddit
I mean what's stopping you signing up to Octopus Agile? Look at ECO4 grants.. or I think it's ECO5 now.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
If you don't have a battery at the very minimum, Agile gets really expensive. You need to be able to charge it when energy is cheap, and avoid using any from the grid when it is expensive.
To get a battery you both have to have the money to buy one and get it installed, and space to put it and an inverter.
bsc8180@reddit
You don’t need a battery for agile. Sure it helps, but the key with most tou tariffs is to be able to load shift to periods where you can buy energy cheaper.
On agile that tends to mean avoiding 4-7pm daily. That might not work for some people.
cognitiveglitch@reddit
Export is a bit pointless in terms of return now anyway.. Better off maintaining a battery one way or another to reduce the hefty input cost.
Eggtastico@reddit
ahh, the politics of envy.
Delldax@reddit
Tbf those with money will always be in a position to benefit more from any scenario that involves new assets
DungasForBreakfast@reddit
You say tbf but it's not fair is it
bacon_cake@reddit
I think they more likely meant "all things being equal", energy price divide is a bit of a moot point considering there's a divide on anything with a price tag.
EchoesofIllyria@reddit
Maybe it stands for to be fucked
Beartato4772@reddit
It's expensive to be poor.
If you can afford an EV (getting cheaper but more expensive than the cheapest viable petrol car), if you can afford solar panels, if you can afford a more efficient heating system you make even more money.
Always has been. It's just the Vimes boot theory again.
New_Line4049@reddit
We need to decouple energy prices from gas prices primarily,
stubbywoods@reddit
Right now 40% of energy is wholesale costs and 40% is network costs (last 20% being taxes and levies).
Network costs are super high because of expensive grid upgrades to make it fit for a renewable system so the idea is once you get to 2031 we can better utilise our grid to reduce wholesale costs and the cost of grid upgrades won't be baked into your energy price hopefully.
Decentralisation is a big one. Having solar helps, having a battery/EV helps even more. I People today have been paid to charge their car when those with petrol vehicles are seeing the highest numbers ever.
If you don't drive the car you were paid to drive you could even send some of that energy back into your house when energy costs are positive again.
I don't know how you convince the people who complain about renewables to switch short of showing them your energy bill though
Smaxter84@reddit
And last night we were still using 16% gas, despite generating 110% of requirement....because the grid can't move it to where it's needed. So we were exporting wind energy from up north and burning gas down south
Charlie_Yu@reddit
Octopus still negative? Definitely remember people complaining about 90p/kWh near Christmas a couple of years ago
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
It's paying out 10p/kWh at the moment. Agile is great if you have a battery and can store energy when it is cheap, to avoid the expensive times.
alekcand3r@reddit
yeah but Agile still doesnt beat IOG if you are eligible and have some home batteries. I've put down 32kw for about 3.5k give or take, and 99% of my expense for the energy (1000 kwh a month) is offpeak 5.2pence
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
Yeah, if you have an EV as well then it's cheaper to be on IOG. The more expensive stuff you already bought, the cheaper it gets.
NoExperience9717@reddit
Standing charges should include a certain amount of energy 'free'. That's probably the biggest thing that'd help. It means poor users can use energy while the renewable users contribute to grid availability for when they need it (winter/autumn).
Milam1996@reddit
It’s not a divide. People on agile get absolutely slaughtered on cold, dark windless days. Fixed rate tariffs absorb the cost of winter with summer days. That’s the entire economic model behind them.
Rich people will always be able to better take advantage of scenarios, that’s kinda the entire point of becoming rich.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
It depends what else they have. If they have a battery and solar, they can probably come out on top over the year. Even in winter, a large solar array will generate something.
Milam1996@reddit
Well you get a financial benefit from having a battery because you help to balance the grid. You have to incentivise investors or what’s the point?
JohnCasey3306@reddit
The many will always subsidise the few. If not utilities or fuel it'll be something else.
These advantages only exist now because it's for the minority ... Fast-forward to a time when most people have solar and most people have EVs, the utility companies and government will need to recoup lost income, so those benefits will disappear. Certainly the government won't tolerate the loss of tax income they currently get from fuel -- once diesel/petrol cars are out of the picture they'll find a way to make a comparable amount of tax income from it.
Search-Lite@reddit
No standing charges. You don’t pay a standard charge for other types of business and they all have overheads. A standing charge means that those who can’t afford to use electricity and gas all the time are paying towards the privilege of those who can. And no more nonsense about giving cheap electricity to people on benefits, as there are people on lower incomes who do not get benefits. Then there are all the added extras such as a renewables charge. No. The basic cost involved in utilities should be just that… basic.
janky_koala@reddit
“It’s expensive to be poor” isn’t exactly a groundbreaking revelation or anything new.
inspectorgadget9999@reddit
The negative prices sound enticing, but it's like buying yellow sticker food at the supermarket: you'll still end up spending £150 on a weekly shop
StrangerWest2756@reddit
Feels like the issue isn’t the energy itself, it’s who can actually take advantage of it.
When prices go negative, it’s great if you’ve got solar, batteries or an EV, but most people don’t. So the system ends up rewarding the people who already have the money to invest.
Until storage gets better and things like solar or heat pumps are more accessible, cheaper energy isn’t going to feel cheaper for most people.
Special_Photo_3820@reddit
Should post this on r/ukmedicalcannabis page, they’re likely to be the most knowledgable without a bunch of arm chair columbos that have 0 experience with law and work policies.
3_34544449E14@reddit
r/lostredditors
Special_Photo_3820@reddit
Bro, I have no fucking idea how this ended up here.
Was giving advice on a completely separate post lma
Frugal500@reddit
Why worry about this specific issue? Its just part of wealth inequality... if everyone was similarly wealthy this would just be a question of how people choose to spend their money...
helpmaboabjings@reddit
I believe the companies and also the government expects us to go fuck ourselves TBH.
BowiesFixedPupil@reddit
Lots can be done, including more grants and things that have happened like plug in solar legislation that came in recently.
Most of the best actions we can take come from green initiatives and incentives for people, these are also quite quick to implement.
Ultimately socialisation of energy generation will pull prices down for all but in the short term we need to encourage insulation and reduce use by improving public transportation (Far far beyond what we have in most of the Country) and similar things. People shouldn't be forced onto public transport but they should want to use it.
We're probably stuck with a divide, it's how those on the wrong side of it are supported or aren't which is equally important.
Remote-Pool7787@reddit
This is the most obvious brag ever
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit (OP)
I wish I had those things to brag about. Well, I have one of them.
Striking-Pirate9686@reddit
No.
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