Southern California vs Sourthern Europe
Posted by Uncle_Richard98@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 40 comments
Which one is better?
I’ve been to Southern California countless times and I absolutely love it, it’s truly the best place to live in the US as a European, but when I compare Southern California to southern Europe (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, south of France) I believe southern Europe has a better lifestyle, way more culture, better food and they’re almost equal in terms of beaches and outdoor activities.
The thing is southern Europe doesn’t have good career opportunities so California wins absolutely on this. Unless someone lives in London for example and spends the weekends in Southern Europe since it’s just a 2 hour flight to Portugal for example (I have a house in the west coast of Portugal).
For those who experienced both, what do you think it’s better to live?
mintjulep_@reddit
I grew up in Italy. Moved to America (was 15), stayed for 20 years. Going back to Italy next year. I wanted to make this move for 20 years. I’ve not really enjoyed my time in America. Always wanted to go back.
thehuffomatic@reddit
That’s a good amount of American states, speaking as an American. Is your husband American?
mintjulep_@reddit
He is American, I’m actually Swiss so he’ll gain citizenship thru our marriage
krkrbnsn@reddit
I’m from California but have lived in Europe for the past decade (Bordeaux and now London). Honestly I think this question is best answered according to what age a person is and where they are in their life.
California is absolutely amazing m and the only place I’d even consider moving back to the US for. However the COL is astronomical, it’s a very car dependent society (except for a few small pockets), and while the salaries are high, the work life balance matches this.
After college I went into tech and I regularly worked 10+ hour days, was on-call on some weekends, and had ‘unlimited PTO’ but everyone was afraid to take time off so it really equated to 2 weeks per year. And even on vacation, middle to upper management was expected to be available ‘just in case.’ I was in my 20s so I didn’t mind the grind but it wore me down and I quickly became burnt out.
Then I moved to France and experienced the opposite. Amazing work life balance, so much time off, and a real appreciation for simple life pleasures. However I was making literally a quarter of what I was before and I missed the professional drive and entrepreneurial ‘go getter’ attitude that existed in California. France (and other southern European societies) are notorious for doing the bare minimum in the workplace and unfortunately I found this to be true.
Then I moved to London, where I’ve now lived for most of my 30s. I really feel like I’ve found the happy balance of where I’m meant to be at this stage in my life. Sure the weather sucks, but I still think it’s the best city in Europe for building a strong professional career while still having a work life balance. I don’t make as much as in California but I make much more than in France. And everyone works hard while still observing work life balance - I have pretty much the same amount of PTO as in France but more money to spend travelling and exploring.
Ultimately, everyone needs to figure out what aspects of life are most important to them. Money, time, work life balance, drive, and career aspirations are all valid reasons to live somewhere - so find what works for you. Eventually I’ll likely retire in France, but for now London is where I’m meant to be.
blackinblighty@reddit
This is an excellent breakdown of all the advantages & downsides of western & southern European countries, UK and California. California is beautiful but it also feels very far from the rest of the world. That, combined with the crappy work/life balance, makes it hard to explore other countries and cultures. Its great climate, landscape &beaches make people here think there’s no need to go abroad to get the ‘tourist’ experience, leading people even further into their bubbles and less aware of the rest of the country & world.
I live in London now and even though the weather is a grind, we take advantage of its proximity to other places and travel all the time. The more generous holiday time (which people actually take, unlike the US where you are pressured not to) allows for weekends in Europe & Scandinavia and lengthier holidays further afield. I do see the same lack of dynamism and drive as on the continent in the UK, but London has a rich population of global expats who’ve emigrated to take advantage of the professional opportunities, making career life feel a bit more full of possibility.
London was an ideal European capital before the massive Brexit own-goal a decade ago, but hopefully with time and common sense they will make their way back to the center of a renewed European alliance independent of American sponsorship. The current government should do more to attract some of the skilled foreign workers from US Universities, who are now leaving the country in droves. They could increase innovation and become a real boon to the UK tech & science industries in the future.
ReadySteady_54321@reddit
It depends on what you consider “the rest of the world.” This is kind of Eurocentric.
Southern CA is far from Europe, but close to Mexico. If your roots or interests are in Central and South America, it’s very convenient to place like Mexico City.
Uncle_Richard98@reddit (OP)
Europe is close to Africa and North America and it’s closer to Asia than the US. I live in Europe and for me travelling to New York, Egypt, Morroco, Cape Verde, Senegal, all the 40 different countries in Europe is very easy. Also Middle East is very close (closer than from the US), same with Asia.
Europe is in a very central location of the planet where you can easily travel 3 different continents or completely different regions of the world. The only thing that is more far away is South America and Oceania , and in this the US only has advantage with South America.
ReadySteady_54321@reddit
It’s also slightly easier to get to East Asia from southern CA than Europe, generally.
13 hours from LA direct to Japan, vs about 14 from Berlin or Rome.
You’ve got the edge on Northern Africa and Dubai, but LA is closer to dozens of countries in Caribbean, central and South America, along with NZ and Australia too.
I will give you a tie, but you’re not beating us on centrality.
Uncle_Richard98@reddit (OP)
It’s still not comparable. You speak about the “Eurocentric” like the entire EU is not made of 40 different countries with totally different climates and specially totally different cultures, languages and gastronomy. Greece is completely different than Denmark and then Switzerland and then Romania and then Italy. You can literally experience 40 completely different realities in a space of a few hours if not minutes, all with different languages, mindsets and lifestyle.
You don’t have this type of multiculturalism so close in the US, okay that the US is very big and estates can and are different but nothing compares to the diversity we have in Europe, at the end of the day all the states in the US are ruled by a central government, everyone speaks the same language and despite having differences it does not compare to the level of the EU.
blackinblighty@reddit
You’re right, my response was a bit Eurocentric. When I last lived in California we used to travel to Mexico a lot. But aside from Mexico and Canada, it’s hard to get new travel experiences in other countries without devoting major time to getting there from the west coast. It was fine for me growing up— my family never traveled and I didn’t get a passport until 19. But now I’ve lived in Europe and gotten the travel bug, I find the prospect of living in California again a bit stifling.
Nijal59@reddit
No his assumptions are ridiculous.
Nijal59@reddit
Your assumptions on France are ridiculous. Don't you know that productivity in France is on par with the US, while working less ? Do you know that there are a lot of places in France where people work very hard, run world leader companies and make good money? You just make an assumption and generalization from your little experience.
No-Working-220@reddit
It's an apple to orange comparison. I grew up in south Italy, lived in SoCal for 12 years and then went back. First of all there is not just one South Europe. France is very different than say south Italy or Spain. As a common theme... SoCal is in the US, so life is built on career and dynamism and entrepreneurship. Sceneries are beautiful, weather amazing so perfect for outdoor lovers but life can be socially alienating and boring since life is still about what you do at your work. There is little community engagement, car dependency and large distances make connecting even more difficult. If you are in the right business, and can afford the HCOL SoCal is a great place to have a professional career, save money while having a quiet family life. Southern Europe life style is more built on traditions, culture and community engagement, a job is just a mean for sustain your life not to identify yourself. However things are more difficult if you are ambitious and want to be an entrepreneur. Population has been aging crazy and among young people there is a bit of diffuse pessimism due to lack of professional opportunities. It's a perfect place to retire though since life is walkable and measured for elders too. On food, I miss International varieties from SoCal especially good sushi but here in south Italy food quality does not even compare. After 2 years I went back I am still deeply amazed how much better food is here for quality and variety.
There are some tourists bubble where you can have an American lifestyle in south Europe but I think that life would get old soon. Moving from the US to South Europe is a life choice, a big cultural shift on what matters more to you. Many pros but a lot of cons too... It is not for everyone.
The_whimsical1@reddit
I've lived in San Diego and Malaga in the last 12 years. I am from the SF Bay Area. Malaga beats SoCal hands down. Not even close. While the winter weather in SoCal if marginally better (it gets cold in Southern Spain, and colder still in uninsulated Southern Spanish houses!) everything else is superior. The infrastructure is better; the food is better; the cost-of-living is significantly less; the air pollution is less toxic; the sea is warmer; and the sights are more diverse and more interesting. Hardly a homeless person in Andalusia. Where I live reminds me of the best of the East Bay (weather-wise and quality of life) in the early nineteen seventies. My old house in California last sold for like four million; I have a better house here in Spain that's probably worth $700,000.
San Diego beats Malaga on beach quality but the Pacific is so much colder that it's a toss up. Yeah the San Diego beaches are more beautiful but the water is so cold you can scarcely enter the ocean in California. If you want great great beaches go to Tarifa.
Early_Divide_8847@reddit
We are in our 30s/40s and have EU citizenship but we’ve lived 99% in the USA. So Cal, 2 toddlers and our hhi it great. Tech (remote) and nurse. We want go to Europe Portugal or Southern Spain but it feels like we would be in areas where retired people go… like no hustle no bustle no industry? (Compared to LA) that’s what is holding us back. I wonder what your opinion is. We lived in Spain and Mexico before but we were much younger and didn’t have kids. Wondering if you have any input.
The_whimsical1@reddit
So it's a lifestyle choice. First of all I have to say I have two kids with me here, one in boarding school in the USA. (Her choice, she's very academic and it's a very good school there in New England.) When I compared Andalusia to the Bay Area in the early seventies, I did that deliberately. It's Northern California before California mutated into the rat race it is today. I am older so I can't comment on the social life of younger people. Occasionally I've run across younger folks, mostly migrants from Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, etc. They've come here for the chill vibe. Malaga is emphatically NOT LA. Regarding nursing, salaries are much lower here. I have my own income stream from the US so that part doesn't affect me. Taxes are high but you get much more for your taxes. I am a retired diplomat and have lived, oh, I don't know, in maybe twenty countries for more than six months and visited maybe around 100. Malaga (at least, the suburb where we live) is the easiest place I've ever lived to plug into. It's unbelievably convenient in all things. My only complaint (I am a historian) is that it was a lot easier to get serious English language non-fiction in Germany by mail order. Spanish Amazon isn't great for books; the competitors aren't well established. Everything, and I mean everything else, is much easier.
I have lived more than half my life internationally, from Geneva to Djibouti. Up until around 2000 I always used to feel it was "stepping up" to higher quality when I returned to the US. In the last two decades the US has been in constant decline. When I go home to anywhere in the States I feel it's a step down. (With the possible exception of Manhattan.) Customer service has deteriorated, our malls and shopping centers in the US are worse, quality of life has plummeted in America, places where I grew up have been overwhelmed with the homeless. Medical care has become more and more of a hustle in the US. Food quality in the US is terrible. Restaurants in the US are over-priced and unimpressive. I could go on. None of these issues are a problem in Spain. The biggest issue is taxation is very high and there's only one super high quality English language school in Malaga. The rest are pretty meh.
winery_bound_expat@reddit
running this exact calculation right now. planning a move to rural Tuscany and the whole thing only works because of remote work — local Italian salaries are rough but if you solve the income piece southern europe isn't even close. spent a month in Chianti last fall and our total food budget was less than two weeks back home in Virginia.
Impossible-Snow5202@reddit
Can you get hired in southern Europe?
Uncle_Richard98@reddit (OP)
I was born in southern Europe. I have an Irish passport and can easily get a visa to live in the US (I have a business in the US).
HVP2019@reddit
Chiming in. You list poor career opportunities as your main problem with Southern Europe.
If you are an independent business owner with an income from US why would you place so much emphasis on poor employment in Southern Europe?
Uncle_Richard98@reddit (OP)
Because Americans and north Europeans clients pay much more and are less exigent
HVP2019@reddit
I am not asking you why your business is in US. I am asking you why do you care about career opportunities for average people in Southern Europe if you don’t have to rely on local employment.
HVP2019@reddit
Where is your home? What place if closer to you culturally? Where you speak local language?
Those things can matter more to your overall wellbeing than things like beaches and outdoor activities. Things I mentioned can matter a lot when you are going through hard times during difficult economic times.
For me such place is California, even though I am from Europe originally. I am not from South Europe, and in my case, I happened to have way more personal ties with California than Southern Europe. I am more familiar with California so I can achieve better results with less work, stress, risks.
yungcherrypops@reddit
Southern Europe and it’s not close. I love Cali but the COL and the pace of life is too much. Give me slow evenings in a small town by the Mediterranean with local wine and seafood any day
syf81@reddit
Yeah sure it’s a 2 hour flight but getting to the airport, getting on and off the plane, having to be at the airport early, and then getting to your house doesn’t sound like a fun thing to do in the weekends.
KostyaFedot@reddit
Better food, wine, beer and architecture in Europe. Here isn't LA downtown ghettos.
It should be easier with work to live, in States.
But we have office in Porto, management likes it, labor is cheaper.
ShinsOfGlory@reddit
Clearly you have never had an In-n-Out burger. Nobody who has ever tried one has ever thought European food was superior again.
CarelessInvite304@reddit
Uhh... 99% of Europeans have no interest in even trying an In-n-Out burger. I have and it's shit.
ShinsOfGlory@reddit
No man who eats Doritos with microwaved cheddar cheese and salsa and calls it “nachos” has any taste in food. :-)
KostyaFedot@reddit
Burger is primitive food.
InformWitch@reddit
Disagree with better food tbh. Italy has good food, but you’ll only eat the local food. Some Spanish and Portuguese food is fine.
SoCal has better food culture by far.
Beer is only good in Belgium, but tbh some breweries in the U.S. are getting really creative.
KostyaFedot@reddit
I didn't find anything special in this part of USA. Mexican food is boring, ethical foods are not my thing.
Americans don't even know what real use of tapas is.
And all local breweries could do is IPA. Awful...
Overall food in Europe is better quality.
InformWitch@reddit
There’s more than Mexican food in SoCal. Maybe that’s more of a you problem. I miss KBBQ and good Peruvian food, for example. Also, a GOOD, legit dim sum restaurant lol. None of that trendy shit.
Also, not sure what breweries you went to but there’s more than IPAs.
But yes, I think overall quality of food is better.
Potential_Salt_5780@reddit
We lived in San Diego for 20 years. Moved to Greece two years ago. I’d make the move 10 out of 10 times especially given the political climate.
InformWitch@reddit
People from most of those places move to Western Europe for work.
They’re lovely but their salaries are low, particularly aging population, and the younger generations are looking to leave or work in tourism.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
I would think infrastructure is worse in Portugal
CyclingCapital@reddit
Depends what infrastructure. If you want to drive everywhere and want massive free-of-charge parking lots, California is better. If you want to walk and take transit and make it there alive, Southern Europe rules.
alexnapierholland@reddit
Southern Europe is utterly appalling for work.
We live in Portugal with well-paid remote work for US tech companies.
Life here is bleak for anyone with a local job.
Southern Europe only makes sense if you have remote work for a US company, or generational wealth.
Also, the infrastructure and customer service is dreadful.
It's impossible to find reliable tradespeople.
kranj7@reddit
You go to Southern Europe once you have money. Not to make money. If you have your own business or are able to live off independent means, Southern Europe can be pretty fantastic. If you need employment to sustain yourself, you might be better off in California (or northern Europe where the weather is not so great)
ChetoChompipe@reddit
Exactly this. Work opportunities are absolute garbage in southern Europe. That’s the reason I am in Germany for the time being.