Can I learn to fly without an iPad? [serious]
Posted by redbarchetta97@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 353 comments
I am interesting in learning to fly, but I am also a pretty low-tech person, by choice. The people I know who fly all swear by iPads, and it seems like the method of choice for most new pilots.
Will I still be able to learn without this? Will schools be willing to do it the old way? I just want charts, instruments, and a radio.
AnalystSingle5321@reddit
I mean you are choosing to fly and as stated in the comments it aids situation awareness and much more. I understand that you are a low tech person but choosing to learn how to work and use the ipad would be much help to your flying.
countextreme@reddit
I did my primary training and checkride on paper charts and a stopwatch. That's how my instructor teaches it, and personally I've seen too many high school graduates that can't do 6*4 without a calculator and I didn't want to be the aviation equivalent of that.
Spirited-Alarm-9981@reddit
You will be a far better pilot for learning to fly without an iPad. I’d strongly recommend learning with no digital items- iPad, GPS etc. Bring those in after getting your license and building your navigation skills, and once you’re flying as a PPL holder, do some flights without the aid of an iPad and GPS so you keep those navigation skills up.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
My question was really asking whether I can get away with never using an iPad.
All_Thrust_No_Vector@reddit
Yes it’s possible. Find a flight school with a Champ or Citabria. I learned to fly in a Champ and did nearly all my flying hours for a private license except a few needed for the check ride. The plane had no radio, it had a compass for navigation and I used a manual E6B and paper charts. Flew all over the Midwest with only that.
iPads are useful, but people rely on them too much and they do quit working sometimes.
Rangeexpert3@reddit
This conversation can go both ways. Yes, an Ipad is a great resource. The problem is students that learn from the Ipad day 1 tend to over rely on the ipad. Learning with charts while you are learning, then transitioning to an Ipad later on flying in the real world usually results in the best of both worlds.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
You made me realize this is also how most people learn to drive nowadays, with ubiquitous GPS, and it makes them worse navigators in general. They can't give or understand directions, they don't know how to find alternate routes home.
Yet most people would say "well at least we don't get lost anymore" but I think that's an important part of life.
Rangeexpert3@reddit
I actually know people that can't get home from their daily commute home from work without using a navigation app on their phone...
MrCoolCol@reddit
A question for the commenters, I was planning to get my PPL without an iPad and then start using it instrument onwards - just so I can learn solid fundamentals without relying on the iPad as a crutch. Thoughts?
44Runner@reddit
The obvious answer is of course. We were flying long before there was an iPad. My question is why wouldn't you want it? It is a valuable tool not only for planning, filing, and flying, but also for safety. I use it to watch traffic, I use the profile view on my flight to plan my altitude. I use it to get winds aloft. It isn't just for sectionals and plates but it is amazing for that too. Also having georeferencing on the plate is invaluable.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I don’t like new technology. I don’t have a smartphone. I never want to be reliant on big tech for my everyday life.
blame_lagg@reddit
You have the wrong mindset, technology has helped aviation get safer over time.
Weather forecasts, navigational aids, radar services, transponders, autopilots, etc.
You can learn how to physically fly an aircraft with very little tech, but you won't be very safe or competent cross-country pilot.
aftcg@reddit
Old pilot here. I disagree in various degrees. The skills us old pilots know very well from flying in the olden days are not even really learned by kids these days. Three's plenty of times I've been able to say, "you can save time and effort by doing this one neat trick, you don't even need tech to do it..." However, I do understand how tech can and is better than flying in the olden days.
Keep in mind we're still killing ourselves the same way we've always been killing ourselves.
Your last sentence is cringe lol
blame_lagg@reddit
Accident rates have been improving in recent years:
https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/accident-analysis/richard-g-mcspadden-report/mcspadden-report-figure-view
I don't want to speculate on why, but there's certainly a lot of resources these days on becoming a safer pilot that simply didn't exist back in the day.
aftcg@reddit
Hooray! And we're still killing ourselves the same way we've always have, just not as fast. AOPA's data quits in 2023. But the data is available up to today.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Eh.
Mission-Noise4935@reddit
Cool. Just make sure to fly something with ADS-B out because you sound like the kind of pilot that tries to kill everyone.
I haven't even been flying that long compared to a lot of people and my iPad and Sentry combo has helped me avoid 3 dangerous situations of people who weren't talking with ATC and were getting way too close and I never would have seen them without my iPad because they were coming from below and behind. Literally impossible to see and this is before I had ADS-B in on my plane. Also it is naive to think you will see every plane in the sky anyways. It is a big sky but you would be surprised how often people seemingly hunt you down. The situational awareness you get for a little over a grand is worth every penny.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Spoken like the kind of pilot that tries to kill everyone...
primalbluewolf@reddit
What part of aviation do you see in your everyday life, in the future?
If you're just keen to fly recreationally, go up, see sights, and land again, you can do that without an iPad just fine.
If you're looking towards commercial flying, most employers are going to want commercial expediency i.e. they don't want to pay you to sit down for an hour to flight plan if it can be done with electronic assistance in 10 minutes. Any decent employer is going to provide the iPad... but there's no shortage of indecent employers, in aviation.
Not that that matters much to you, if you're only aiming to fly recreationally.
OriginalJayVee@reddit
It was impossible to learn how to fly before the iPad was created. That’s all i’m gonna say.
/s
JadedJared@reddit
Despite the sarcasm and lack of upvotes to this post, this is a great conversation to have every once in a while, especially as we all become more and more reliant on technology.
The majority of pilots seem to agree that starting off your flying journey or at least having the ability to aviate without an EFB/iPad is probably better than needing to rely on it, but there comes a point in your career where you inevitably rely on it more than you probably should.
OP poses a good question because I’m curious myself how CFIs and DPEs would respond to a student who refuses to use a moving map or EFB. When I started flying I didn’t use an iPad until after my commercial but would that be acceptable today or would some CFIs frown upon it?
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
When I started there were no tablets of any kind. I remember when we installed the latest and greatest technology called a Loran before GPS was available was to the public. As an instructor we could use it, students were forbidden to. I still believe you need to crawl before you walk. Looking out the window for water towers and race tracks or railroad tracks to figure out where you were in the world is still a good skill to have. Along with bearing and distance from a VOR.
Granite_burner@reddit
Now if only the VORs were not all being decommissioned.
At this rate soon they’ll all be gone and we will have to relearn LORAN.
Seriously, my professional cybersecurity work has me well aware of GPS denial attacks (spoofing and jamming) so we better be thinking about alternatives. Even ADF won’t work once all the broadcast stations go off the air to transmit only over the internet. Maybe it’s time to build something that triangulates cell towers?
Motriek@reddit
Did a quick search, there's many libraries for many SDR's that will return nearby tower identifiers that vary by GSM/LTE version, and there's multiple open datasets of towers that include lat/lon... not saying it's trivial but triangulation within a few miles may be realistic given sufficient tower density, combining ADAHRS for some inertial memory would improve the experience. The bigger issue will probably be the lateral directivity of cell towers which get zero value from emitting upwards.
Might be a fun feature to see added to a Stratux box.
Prefect_99@reddit
More DME stations are being built here in the UK, but I can't nav off that.
MidwestFlyerST75@reddit
As a CFI I would have no problem with it. In fact for the first 10 lessons or so, I have to work harder to get most students to look out the windows and not at the EFB or MFD.
At some point though, there’s a safety factor that needs to be considered. The ability to get situational data preflight or inflight is significant, and not terribly complicated even for the tech averse. Particularly ADSB traffic data is a meaningful safety improvement.
can it be done? Sure, absolutely, and you’ll have a great foundation of knowledge. Can you completely avoid technology? Maybe, and you’d be losing some valuable safety tools like online weather briefings, real time notams, traffic, etc.
Ideally I’d want to see you capable without and with the tech.
Affectionate_Fix8268@reddit
Fully agree with this. You’ll have to be competent with and without EFB’s. If you carry an EFB during a check-ride, the ATO (Australia), DPE (FAA) can make the EFB ‘inop’ in-flight.
I did my commercial and ME-IR back in 2018. Not once did I carry an EFB in-flight. In-fact, the flight school I attended wasn’t approved for its use.
We had glass avionics, but VFR navigation was done with relevant maps and airport charts, ruler, timepiece, calculator, and paper navigation log.
IFR navigation we carried the hard-copy Jeppesen airways manuals with all the charts.
In Australia you absolutely can still do it the conventional way, but eventually if you land a jet-job, you’ll be forced to use their EFB as everything is done on it.
DonnerPartyPicnic@reddit
We had a time where students were cleared weird on Ipads for the whole syllabus. Had the in flight guide as well as the PCL for emergencies, and foreflight. Luckily that changed. I never used it unless it was leaving the local area and needed foreflight.
burnheartmusic@reddit
I let students do what they want through solo, but for solo xc, they must have ForeFlight on their phone or iPad and know how to use it
Granite_burner@reddit
How do you plan for the solo xc students using ForeFlight having the phone or iPad battery die? You just know the time it happens they’ll discover they didn’t bring a charging cable.
burnheartmusic@reddit
It’s an extra layer of safety that they have, not their primary gps. Also they have an iPad, and an iPhone with them and a backup battery. If all die/fail then they just revert back to the planes instruments. It’s another layer for them though.
Unremarkable_Potato_@reddit
I recently did my PPL check ride and honestly other than my flight plan I don’t think my DPE would have cared if I was 100% analog. I’m a fan of Foreflight for some things, but really do prefer a full understanding of both. Which I struggled with. I can’t imagine a DPE having an issue with a student doing everything without an EFB at the PPL level.
JournalistSweet6597@reddit
You arnt even allowed to use a EFB for the ppl test at my school
FlyNSubaruWRX@reddit
Yikes I’m old
Thomas-Ligotti97@reddit
At my school we had this CFI that was fired and I took 2 of his students who was supposed to be like 1-2 flights away from private.
They were fully reliant on gps and had zero awareness of their surroundings and local locations they HAD to have flew countless times before. It put it into perspective just how bad CFI’s can be
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
I like to see little to no iPad use until the solo stage. Refusing to use it is a little silly to me. It’s a huge aid to situational awareness.
LeafCase9847@reddit
I've confiscated the iPad from a few students in recent years because they were too busy messing with buttons and staring at the magenta line to actually look out the window and navigate. "Uh ohhhh battery died (and next nav or ten will be on paper too)"
Take the toy. Make them learn the old fashion way. Get them lost. Eventually they learn. Then, only then, do they get to use their toys again.
So whatever. The iPad is more convenient but no biggie.
OriginalJayVee@reddit
That’s valid.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
My question is mostly concerned with the seeming shift to smart technology in aviation (and all areas of life).
One of my favorite movie theaters just switched to QR code ordering so you have no choice. No idea how we ordered food before smartphones, seems impossible.
NLlovesNewIran@reddit
At my job there’s still a menu from a local sandwichshop. One of the receptionists takes lunch orders and calls them in an hour before lunch. Delivery restaurants used to leave those menus into people’s mailboxes.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Some restaurants around my job fax them to us.
Prefect_99@reddit
Ah I miss the days of a smudgy cross section magically appearing out of the fax machine.
_-Cleon-_@reddit
The main challenge I think you're going to face is that finding paper charts is a bit more difficult these days.
Nathan_Wildthorn@reddit
There are several online sites that still sell paper charts, eg, Sporty's and Pilot Mall. 🙂
_-Cleon-_@reddit
And a couple decades ago, every FBO would have an ample supply of charts of the local area.
As I said, it's a bit more difficult than it used to be.
haveanairforceday@reddit
Where do you live? I havent used one of those QR menus since COVID
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Many restaurants in so florida no longer use a hard copy menu. They are available if you do not want to use the QR code but it takes like 20 mn for someone to find it. Surprising because of all the old anti tech customers they have.
8636396@reddit
You've gotten your answer, but I'll tell you, as someone who loves tech and really appreciates foreflight in my training and int the sky...
One of my CFIs flies and has taught me entirely without it. He does bring it with him, just in case, but I think I've only seen. him take it out once. He does everything the old fashioned way. Piece of paper, clipboard, pencil. Its very impressive. It simplifies a lot of things. It adds steps to others, but it doesn't really make anything complicated.
I'd say you're better off knowing how to do everything without the use of an iPad, and then you can acquire one and learn it at a later point. You will, at some point, find it very useful. It's good to have the foundation before leaning on it too hard.
Puzzleheaded-Ear9242@reddit
As you’ll start to learn through training, flying with your iPad is supplemental and the FAA has established primary means to navigate. The entire system is built on flying without an iPad. Now an iPad surely makes it much easier, but you can lessen hours to fly no problem. Some even argue it’s good to fly with no iPad in the beginning.
Lumberjack-1975@reddit
Interesting post, I’m a retired commercial pilot and never used an iPad to fly, IT IS POSSIBLE TO LEARN TO FLY WITHOUT AN IPAD, I DID IT!
EverSeeAShitterFly@reddit
The Wright brothers were delayed because Orville refused to pre order and they had to wait in line for that first iPad.
Charles Lindbergh’s first attempt at crossing the Atlantic had to be called off because of a surprise update.
Apptubrutae@reddit
Lies, spread by big clipboard
russellvt@reddit
Beat me to it, thanks.
WhyDoesAm@reddit
Lmao
Hiddencamper@reddit
You should not fly with the iPad until you’ve completed your solos. Learn to use them. Have it available. But force yourself to learn how to fly without the tools. It makes you a more aware pilot and could save your life.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
That wasn't the question. I don't want to use an iPad ever, I was asking if that is feasible.
Hiddencamper@reddit
Yes it is
Mediocre_Paramedic22@reddit
iPad is not required. It does make the math easier.
x4457@reddit
Yes.
You won't want to, but you can.
nemuro87@reddit
This. I was literally forced to trim my AC and pull up paper charts for dead reckoning and I hated it. But I am glad I know this. Now I am using the iPad and a backup device and sometimes I even print to scale the region of the vfr map.
Prefect_99@reddit
Forced to trim? The aircraft should always be in trim.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Unless you learned in an airbus, or an F-16, I can confirm its quite possible for an aircraft to get out of trim - and the prevalence of students happy enough to continue in this state if not prompted otherwise.
if_a_sloth-it_sleeps@reddit
lol I remember as a kid my dad would let me fly… “how’s the trim?” He’d ask. “Oh yeah, it’s all good dad”
As soon as he flipped the yolk back to his side he’d start doing major adjustments to the trim. As a little kid I thought that it was good and that I just wasn’t as experienced or that it was easier for him since he was an adult.
Prefect_99@reddit
He just didn't actually teach you trimming. But a student should know this. From some of the responses though, even qualified pilots weren't taught properly.
if_a_sloth-it_sleeps@reddit
Oh he absolutely didn’t teach me anything! It still blows my mind all the stuff that I “should have known” and was expected to know and do correctly… but was never taught.
Once I started pursuing my license and got an instructor there were so many things that clicked that made flying so much more enjoyable
Prefect_99@reddit
Would you like me to edit to clarify?
Once I had taught trimming I would then hand over control out of trim and ensure it was trimmed before anything else was carried out.
They'd also get it back if it was handed over to me out of trim.
Rushing and not reinforcing the fundamentals do a disservice to the student.
primalbluewolf@reddit
I firmly agree.
You should always trim.
Prefect_99@reddit
That's my point. Being "forced to trim" means the aircraft was out of trim. It should always be in trim.
If a student doesn't understand that they should always be flying in trim, that's a fundamental issue.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Also, FWIW I do disagree with that as an absolute statement, although its a very good general rule.
There's times I'll fly out of trim, intentionally. Formation flight is a good example (slightly nose down trim). Similarly I'm not retrimming during a sequence for aeros typically.
Still, those are the exceptions that prove the rule, IMO.
Prefect_99@reddit
Agree, very specialist cases. I'm sure we could think of plenty more.
But it's easier to be taught the exception properly, than the rule poorly.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Then it seems we agree there.
Evidently so - your previous statement still reads as a judgement on the physics of flight, rather than a statement on the aircraft state the pilot should achieve.
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
It's impossible to always have an aircraft in trim.
Trim is for a specific speed at a specific altitude and a specific heading, assuming relatively consistent winds.
aftcg@reddit
Down voter here, please tell me how wind has anything to do with trim? I'll wait.
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
You don't think that to maintain constant altitude in variable winds you need to re trim? Interesting.
aftcg@reddit
We need trim when we move through unstable airmasses.
Moose135A@reddit
Yes, and if it gets out of trim, you retrim to eliminate excessive control forces.
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
That's the point. You have to re trim.
Prefect_99@reddit
I can only think that the early PPL exercises are rushed through.
aftcg@reddit
Wind does not affect trim.
Moose135A@reddit
Yes, if your airspeed changes, you will need to retrim. That has nothing to do with which way the wind is blowing. If you are cruising along straight and level, in trim, and the wind changes from a crosswind to a tailwind, and you don't change power settings, how does your airspeed change? How does your trim condition change?
primalbluewolf@reddit
Easiest options would be flaps or gear config changes, but my preference for most interesting answer would be - because the aircraft weight changed. Although either answer would need to be quite contrived in an actual situation in flight, to neatly transition from in-trim in the first state, to in-trim in the second.
Prefect_99@reddit
Heading has nothing to do with it, wind has nothing to do with it.
If the aircraft is out of trim, you trim it. Therefore, it should always be in trim.
The only exception would be immediately before landing or after takeoff/on a go around.
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
WHAT!?
Holy fuck. You're a CFI?
Granite_burner@reddit
My airplane seems to actively resist remaining in trim. I’ll get it trimmed up so it’s happily staying straight and level hands off, and ninety seconds later it’s starting to drift away from that happy state.
I think part of it is the jackscrew that Mooneys use to pivot the tail as the trim mechanism has a bit of wear. It’s also just very aerodynamically sensitive so fuel burn is going to have a noticeable effect. Even if there is no fore and aft CofG change the fuel selector drawing from either left wing tank or right wing tank but not both inevitably results in a developing imbalance.
So it’s just not possible to trim well enough to fly hands off indefinitely without an autopilot.
Or is your definition of being in trim something less than prolonged stable flight with hands and feet completely off the controls?
Prefect_99@reddit
Sounds like you need to have your aeroplane fixed.
Granite_burner@reddit
Nice, you read my flair! And thanks for stating the obvious lol. Anyway, engine eating a valve had nothing to do with trim stability. And the overhaul shop tells me they will be shipping it back in the next two weeks.
Other than that the plane is fine, just very sensitive. It’s well rigged, fuel burn is great, cruising 135 to 140 under 8gph is good anytime in my book, and better in today’s petro war era.
If anything the trim jackscrew might have a bit more lash than ideal, but it’s a pretty big job and right now my budget is allocated to engine work so I’ll live with only being able to fly hands off for a minute or two.
And I think some trim change as fuel burns is inevitable. One wing or the other will be constantly changing weight and that’s going to upset all the aerodynamic balances.
SpartanDoubleZero@reddit
Some times you gotta do it gooder
ItsReallyLebron@reddit
Shocks me that we all didnt learn to do it this way?😂 nothing better than trying to fidget with a paper chart taking up the whole panel and making sure the airplane is trimmed out. Then doing nav log times all at once 😂
fallskjermjeger@reddit
I never understood how the hell I was supposed to do anything with my charts or even my kneeboard while flying a helicopter.
gnowbot@reddit
I learned fixed wings and steam gauges, so a bit more forgiving. Thinking back, I spent so many hours folding charts in prep for those early XC flights. No matter how hard I tried, that dang thing would come unwound like a James Bond umbrella in a chicken coop.
I wonder how much of flight schools’ profit was selling paper charts in those days.
Prefect_99@reddit
Laminated chart, bulldog clip.
The real art was folding the chart so you didn't have to open it out.
mirassou3416@reddit
I almost spit out my drink with this one because I’d been there and done that 😂
sirduckbert@reddit
Collective friction, careful map folding before you took off, and either learning to write with your left hand or work the cyclic.
We had to do 250’ nav routes in rotary pilot training with paper maps. It’s harder than in an airplane but it’s doable
fallskjermjeger@reddit
That does seem like a pain, but I understand the need, especially pre EFB or in a mil context.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Convenient that the iPad was invented before the heli, then?
fallskjermjeger@reddit
Ad absurdum reply there, friend. Was my statement hyperbole? Yes. Was reading comprehension required? Not more than needed to get through your written, so what gives?
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I don’t plan on experiencing it.
FlowerGeneral2576@reddit
Of course you can, many did before iPads were around. That being said, it’s worth considering the ease of resource management and increase in situational awareness you get from something like an iPad. General aviation flying is arguably safer because of them.
This isn’t me trying to say you shouldn’t fly old-school, this is me as a low-tech leaning person myself saying there’s much to be gained from having a tool like this in your cockpit, and something to be considered.
PRISONER_709@reddit
Also way more efficient. I did all my xc hours old school with chart and paper log. Every planning would take me an afternoon: draw the line, measure track and mileage, calculate time and fuel, etc. All time consuming useless work.
Then, after like 5 years, I went as a pax with a friend doing hour building with iPad. One morning we woke up, weather was good, during breakfast did the planning and here we go.
specialsymbol@reddit
I built an excel sheet for this and now it takes only 30 Minutes
PRISONER_709@reddit
I had one too, okay it did the time and fuel calculations automatically, but still need to give it the mileage and measure the track, can't beat ipad app, can't think of any reason to take charts other than they're cheaper and can't run out of battery
Rod-Serling-Lives@reddit
I learned wto fly without an iPad or any electronic flight planning during my PPL. Definitely have a deeper understanding and probably safer for having done that. That being said, I did use an iPad during my instrument training and you'd be a fool not to. In training for my commercial now. Once you go beyond PPL level the load it takes off you and increased situational awareness is invaluable.
haveanairforceday@reddit
You can plan your route on skyvector pretty well. It will give wind/heading and speed calculations. Run some ballpark fuel burn calcs based on known burn rate at a given TAS. Print/ copy down that info. Saves a lot of time compared to manual and its free.
Prefect_99@reddit
My MDR was spot on though 😂
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I don’t think it’s a given. I realize that human flight was invented before the iPad… but there’s a shift to smart technology taking place in every area of life, and there may come a point in the future where USDOT says you must have digital charts in order to fly.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Fortunate, then, that the US DOT doesn't have much say over aviation, no?
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Don’t be facetious.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Facetious. Adjective: Playfully jocular; humorous.
Guilty as charged.
At least in the US, the national aviation authority is their FAA.
Garbagefailkids@reddit
Just being pedantic here, but the FAA is, in fact, a part of the Department of Transportation.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Oh! Well TIL. Thank you!
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Maybe stick to Australian aviation questions mate. Seems like you don’t know much about how it works here.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Assuming you're in the US then? As you didn't specify until now.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Yeah. It’s almost like I knew what I was talking about.
aftcg@reddit
Boom. Mic drop moment
m4a785m@reddit
Well every airline in the US uses digital charts, and digital document signing, flight releases and it’s all mandatory. So if you’re trying to make it to the airlines eventually I recommend to get used to it
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Fortunately, I’m not. Just want to learn for fun.
OverallConference940@reddit
If you don't have any other traffic display in your aircraft, it's well worth it.
Full_Imagination_890@reddit
In the UK Its not a choice, you have to learn without an ipad or android tablet. Paper maps, pooleys flight computer, dead reckoning, stop watch timings. On your test change of route so you have to do a distance, time and bearing calculation in the cockpit. Not difficult at all. Of course we all use sky demon once we have a license but I still carry a chart and ruler just in case.
toshibathezombie@reddit
Former UK instructor here.
You are exactly right. A student of mine tried to use skydemon on his cross country qualifier. I point blank refused. Told him that once he got his own licence, he could do whatever he likes, but as long as he is flying on my ticket, he will fly using the basics. iPads can fail, fundamentals won't.
iPads and skydemon etc should be supplemental to paper charts and core skills, never the primary source.
Bunslow@reddit
these days, EFB failure is about as likely as spilling water on a paper chart. i find this argument to be quite out of touch.
do you train your students to handle "chart got wet" or "chart fell out the window" scenarios? (i mean this seriously, im asking what your definition of "fundamentals" is)
Prefect_99@reddit
I don't know. Batteries fail, things overhead, people don't always have a backup.
I've had GPS LOI (briefly a few times).
The answer to "everything fell out" is do as the military. Full route study, memorize the entire plan.
toshibathezombie@reddit
Charts in the UK are laminated , I taught my students to draw with permanent markers (and use solvent to erase after). And flying with windows open the whole time? I mean I wouldn't have them do that anyway. You could go on with hypotheticals but I can say the same thing with "my efb fell out the window" - the difference is charts don't turn off unexpectedly. And skydemon is for children of the magenta line these days - anyone can follow it, but when it does break, do you have the skills of dead reckoning and basic drift and speed distance time calculations to get you out? I have back seated a PPL who relied on skydemon, yet got lost when the bus dropped (to 7km!!) and couldn't use basic dead reckoning to identify the point they were flying over - no back up chart. I had to take over nav from the back seat as a passenger and used basic map reading skills and DR to get us back on track.
I'm now an airline pilot and yes, OUR efbs have a very low failure rate, however we have 2 on the flight deck between us, cables between both of us, spares in the aircraft and a QRH and supplemental documents to fall back on if we have a total failure, not to mention spare cables etc. and the difference between Joe bloggs students iPad and an airline EFB is that out apps and system is controlled. Controlled apps, controlled updates etc and tested by our safety team to make sure the rate of failure is low. A standard or jailbroken iPad may be more prone to failures and the GPS signal can be useless compared to ours, unless they are using a plug in aviation GPS adapter. Atleast in the 737 it links with aircraft WiFi (for us, pilots only, and only uplinks ADIRU data) and also we have USB power sources (which many club/school planes don't). The average PPL student is probably just on battery, and what happens if they forget to charge or the power drain is more than expected? And if solo, no second ipad, no spare cables, no power?
Far more holes in the Swiss cheese model for single uncontrolled iPad Vs paper charts or airline EFBs
Full_Imagination_890@reddit
My background in navigation comes from been a mountain leader. Macro/micro navigation is a strong point for me. Bearings, timings, thumbing the map. No electronic aids allowed on ML assessments. So been able to do pen and paper is quite easy to me, I know some may struggle a bit. Every now and again I will get the map out when flying just to be sure I can still do it. Skydemon is a brilliant aid and thats what it is, an aid. And as a vfr hobby pilot most of my nav is just point it in the general direction and enjoy the view.
Bunslow@reddit
to be honest ive always wondered how people lacking these skills even manage to navigate cars to places, nevermind getting in a darned plane. (im also always surprised when people don't know which way north is but im probably the weirdo in this regard)
adventuresofh@reddit
I have had several iPad failures in the last few of years. I’ve also had a panel mounted GPS overheat. There are areas in my state where terrain makes them (and GPS) basically useless.
An iPad is a fantastic tool, and I love ForeFlight, but you should be able to fly without one.
apilotandacamera@reddit
Same with here in Canada.. Paper charts and manual computers are required for PPL. You have to demonstrate proficiency with them.
After PPL it eases and tablets are used.
-CFI
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I think that’s great!
Disallow0382@reddit
You've hit the nail on the head there. It's uncomfortable knowing how reliant many pilots are on their iPads. Bizarre.
specialsymbol@reddit
No. In fact, the brothers Wright were only able to fly because Steve Jobs had invented the iPad the year before.
-Albert Einstein
Additional_Bug_2823@reddit
What happens in flight when the iPad battery fails? You had better have good stick and rudder skills, as you explain that you prefer.
Same with electronic instruments / GPS and so on. If they fail then you had better know how to use an ADF or VOR etc.
Owl_Better@reddit
You may be able to do it without the iPad but most trainers today are teched out so learning the screens has to happen. If you find a trainer with a 6 pack you can go old school like I first learned😀
NoPhysics1129@reddit
You shouldnt be using an Ipad during your PPL, your CFI should. Learn it after you learn to fly. There are several people out there that actually DONT know how to fly without one and its dangerous.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Yeah but I guess what I was asking was, can I avoid the iPad entirely? I think the answer to that seems to be yes, at my own risk.
NoPhysics1129@reddit
People flew for a hundred years without it....
kruecab@reddit
Your comments seem to be combative and it sounds like you have a philosophical objection to iPads, smartphones, etc. Nobody here is going to change your philosophy, but you put a serious tag on your post so I’m to assume you are looking for thoughtful responses.
Yes you can learn to fly without an iPad. However, most pilots would recommend having one as it offers advantages to dramatically speed up flight planning, provides more accuracy / a checkpoint against manual process, and is a valuable tool for situational awareness in the cockpit. Like any technology, there is a risk of becoming overly dependent on it, but based on your feeling about tech, this doesn’t seem like a trap you would fall into.
Flight planning in particular is a very detail oriented activity. Without an iPad, there are a number of things that must be calculated by hand. Some of this is useful for understanding the underlying principals, but much of it is tedium that does not really add to the safety of flight. The calculations must be done and you should really understand how they are done, but leaving the actual computation to the computer is safe, saves time, and eliminates human mistakes. Even if you plan a flight “the old school way” on paper, consider that the chart you are using was built using navigational and computational tools, you will use devices such as protractors to take measurements, and even a calculator to do basic math an ratios. There are wind drift charts and circular slide rulers - these are also computational tech aids and you would have to trust the math that was done to build them. The iPad simply brings all this together and does the measurements for you. At the end of the day, you need a heading to fly and an attitude to fly it at - doing it one way or the other will not make a difference as long as the heading gets you where you are going and the altitude keeps you away from terrain and obstacles.
I learned to fly without iPads and then gained them later in life. Besides flight planning, they really are a better alternative to paper charts IMHO for the following reasons:
Not using an iPad at least for planning and in-cockpit chart reference in this day and age is just silly given the advantages over the alternatives.
iPads also offer some other benefits, namely the viewing of documents and taking of notes. While flying you need to reference documents: checklists, POH, performance tables, and airport references. It’s easy to load and display these on an iPad (within an EFB app). Otherwise it requires having printed them out before flight and organizing them with your charts, or pulling out a POH binder in flight. This is an ancillary benefit, but still handy as you get search, bookmarking, and highlighting. You also need to jot down lots of notes in flight. Weather, routing, times, etc. An iPad with stylus allows you to do this in the same device you use for charts and other uses above vs having a dedicated notepad. Again, this isn’t the main driver, but it’s a handy extra feature.
An iPad is a truly revolutionary device for flying, particular GA flight, in bringing together so many useful features. It’s not required, but it is damn, damn handy.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Thank you for your response, I think you alone really understood what I was trying to get at. This is going to make me ponder for a while.
I feel bad about being so defensive, but I mean, people were basically treating me like an idiot here for no good reason.
kruecab@reddit
Happy to help! No worries about being defensive. Perhaps you just needed more detail to understand why everyone is saying “yes you can, but why?” I tried to add color around the reasoning iPads are super useful. I’m sure I missed some items, after all I’m just a low hour PPL with IFR.
Pilots are sometimes dichotomous about technology. You will see many many pilots snickering at less experienced pilots who over-rely on technology. “Children of the magenta line” they call them, because GPS courses are generally magenta on moving maps, and they are criticizing pilots who can only navigate using GPS waypoints / magenta line course guidance as opposed to conventional navaids such as VORs and localizers (usually denoted by green course guidance / needles), or by pilotage which is just looking at the chart, looking outside, and matching those up along with basic math about speed, wind, and distance. But at the same time, in most modern GA planes, we all navigate using GPS / magenta lines because it is easy and accurate. We are warned by the FAA, the industry, and old/wise pilots not to become complacent due to new technology or overly reliant on it. Yet at the same time, most of the old flight planning tools are really only used in flight instruction to reinforce the fundamental concepts.
It also depends on the type of flying you do and the equipment in the airplane. If you fly a really modern plane like a cirrus g7 or similar, you don’t really need an iPad because it’s all already built in. On the other end, if you are flying an aerobatic plane or vintage plane, you may only be flying in pure VFR and the iPad may not be necessary. In the middle is a good use case for it, which is where most of us are.
But at the end of the day, you are going to want one just for the EFB app. ForeFlight has been the most popular with Garmin Pilot also being very popular and maybe a few others. As someone else suggested - you can ignore all other apps and functions of the tablet except for that EFB app and I think you will really like it, even as someone who doesn’t want to become overreliant on tech. It’s just pretty handy.
Oh, one other thing I forgot that is really really useful with a tablet and EFB is traffic awareness. Pair the app with either ADS-B in/out on the plane, or a cheap ADS-B receiver (sentry by ForeFlight or Garmin makes one too) and you can see other airplanes aka traffic on the moving map display. This is so, so important, especially in busy airspace. It really helps you avoid mid-airs as sometimes it’s very hard to see other airplanes even with ATC telling you right where they are. With these recrviers and the iPad you can see where they are in relation to you, their altitude, and direction of flight, along with type and tail number, which really helps you stay separated from them in the sky.
Anyhow, good luck! Don’t let this stuff stop you from flying. It’s truly the most fun way to spend shitloads of money!
m1lfluva@reddit
It’s more of a safety thing. I would never fly without an iPad simply because of how stupid people can be. Not only that, it helps to take a large workload off of you. Rather than having to guesstimate where you are on a map you can see in real time where you are in relation to terrain, other traffic, or airspace. I mean you can go without an iPad but it’s just making it harder on purpose and I guarantee someone will almost kill you—something similar happened to me—and you will not go anywhere without that damn thing.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I don’t understand. If ATC is doing its job, how does someone almost kill you, and how would an iPad prevent that?
primalbluewolf@reddit
Assuming you're flying somewhere that ATC has a job in the first place, of course. Being out of range of ATC coverage is bread and butter for me, for example (Australian Outback flying).
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Got it! Yeah I don’t know that much about that yet I kind of assumed they operated in all US airspace.
Very cool though. I used to live with a dude outside of Melb who used to be a bush pilot for the Australian weather service, always sounded amazing to me.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Has its ups and downs, I guess!
From what I see on here, US airspace is almost entirely controlled airspace anyway. There's a class of airspace that's relevant though, where you have VFR aircraft operating outside ATC control, and possibly outside two-way communication.
Combine that with US population density and number of aircraft and you can run into another aircraft, figuratively and literally, fairly easily.
BrotherBear_@reddit
almost all US airspace is “controlled” as in you can get ATC services for IFR. but in VMC, aircraft don’t even need a radio to fly VFR in the class echo “controlled” airspace. so yeah basically the same, this guy just has unrealistic expectations having not flown yet
primalbluewolf@reddit
Echo is the class I was referring to, yes. Similar to how it works here then.
m1lfluva@reddit
Non towered airport. Everything is at a pilots discretion. I was on final and due to the number of people in pattern everyone was extending their downwind to accommodate for heavier traffic. Well dipshit didn’t have an iPad and wasn’t listening and just turns his base when he normally would and my iPad screams at me that there is traffic within my immediate vicinity. Look to my left, could see the expression on their fuck ass faces, immediately throw the nose down and avoid a collision—remember I’m on final with flaps high and power low which puts me closer to stalling—then the dumbass hops on the radio and says “uhh ya we’re gonna do a right 360 to give the plane on final more space” after still not realizing they had cut off an additional four planes. So yeah go ahead without your iPad kiddo, just let me know what you want in your obituary
throwaway718294949@reddit
The amount of people that are talking to ATC while you're flying anywhere outside of a towered airport at GA altitudes is really low. I'd say 80-90% of people are flying around VFR, not in contact with ATC, and usually not making any radio calls unless they are in the pattern. If the airplane you're flying has a GPS, then you can just use that to help with your SA and traffic avoidance, but if it does not, having an iPad and a sentry is a complete game changer for safety. Obviously everyone should always be trying to see and avoid (not just relying on ADSB) but it is much harder to spot an airplane while you're flying than you'd think. It's not like just looking left and right before you cross the road. There's been countless times where I see traffic nearby on ADSB and it takes a good 30 seconds before me or my instructor can spot them. I'd highly recommend you start by learning how to fly with paper charts, but get an iPad eventually. It will make you a much safer pilot, and you'll still know how to fly with paper charts if anything ever happens to your iPad during flight. ForeFlight also has a lot more information available than a paper chart could possibly have.
blame_lagg@reddit
ATC doesn't separate aircraft in the air flying VFR.
Most traffic has ADS-B out, which broadcasts their position. You can have a receiver which gives your iPad the position of nearby traffic.
Alternatively, upgrade avionics to something with a G1000.
primalbluewolf@reddit
I mean sure 10 years ago ADS-B IN was prohibitively expensive, but these days its a lot more affordable. You can buy a small transponder/navigator like a GNX 375 relatively cheaply - for 100k you could buy 20 of them.
Granted, that's still not as cheap as the hacky iPad solution... but it is a fair bit better - if you can afford it. 5 AMUs is a lot of grocery bills.
Mission-Noise4935@reddit
Having used both an iPad with a Sentry and the GTN 750Xi and GTX 345 that I paid $30k to have put in my plane, there is nothing at all "hacky" about the iPad. It works extremely well and is very reliable. I still use the iPad while flying despite having spent $85k on my panel.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Its quite a few extra points of failure, which is why I'd prefer the in-panel solution as primary. The aircraft has bigger antennae, more power for better signal strength, and an alternator. The iPad has cables to charge it, which are a consumable. It also contains a lithium battery, which aside from being a dangerous good, is also a consumable.
I also support iPads for a number of clients, and have seen enough issues on them that I am never going to trust one as the sole source of any information.
I'll at least concede that its the best option out of all the tablets I've seen or used, despite the high pricing. Its still what I choose to use. I'm just not going to promote it as a sole source of any information, or use it that way.
Mission-Noise4935@reddit
Well, my iPad is charging off that same alternator. If that alternator goes out my iPad has probably 3 hours of battery life and the Sentry has even more whereas I am going to be turning almost everything on my panel off to save battery. I have multiple high quality charging cables in my flight bag and they are relatively inexpensive so that is a non-issue. As far as the signal strength the Sentry seems to pick up everything I need without trouble once in the air. It also provides me with backup AHRS and even synthetic vision. My CFII was a fan of foggles, complete panel failure, and flying 100% by your iPad to prove can be done in a pinch and it isn't a bad thing to know how to do.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Not directly, though. Got a backup USB-C adaptor? Seen those fail before.
Also never seen the aircraft avionics overheat and shut down. That's a constant battle for me with the iPads.
The backup AHRS is pretty neat, and I don't disagree that having an extra tool in the toolbag is useful. My objection is relying on that tool as a sole source of data, as in my own experience, its not bulletproof.
I also don't see the point of synthetic vision.
blame_lagg@reddit
Pretty great, thanks for showing me! Looks like they can be had for ~$8-10k though I'd be a little concerned about the size of the screen for situational awareness.
primalbluewolf@reddit
So was I, before I started using it. Bigger is better, at least for cockpit displays, but this one is fine in use.
We've just updated our avionics (the aforementioned 100k install...) and its nice having a 650 as well, but I have flown aircraft with only a 375 before and its a huge upgrade over say a 430. Worth it for the ADS-B IN... although I think its perhaps around a quarter to a third of the aircraft I encounter that don't seem to have ADS-B OUT, so its far from a replacement for alerted-see-and-avoid. It is a nice supplement to it, though.
Moose135A@reddit
If you're just VFin'R out there, or the other guy is, you may not be talking to ATC and they may not be paying attention to you.
primalbluewolf@reddit
So, couple concerns here. As soon as the EFB positions you, or the hazard traffic, incorrectly, you're depending blindly on the EFB.
You "guesstimate" where you are on a map for a reason. If you stop doing that because you have information from another source, you're no longer a pilot, merely a systems manager.
aftcg@reddit
This is good stuff. They never learned how to get and keep SA by looking out the window.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Exactly.
Hudscp@reddit
This. There is an instructor I know who refuses to use one. Hazardous attitude imo. Why not use things that make you a safer pilot?
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
You can still get paper charts, heck you can download them for free and print them yourself if you like, or take them to a Kinko's. But it might be a bit spendy if you get the original size. IIRC charts were like $25 and technically you needed new ones every few weeks although there is no FAR that specifically states that you need current charts.
Ok_Witness179@reddit
Of course you can. But you shouldn't. Technology will make you safer and more efficient. And if you're not interested in either of those then you shouldn't really pursue aviation anyway, in my opinion.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Aviation is not a safe activity, period.
Ok_Witness179@reddit
Safety is a spectrum. Using technology and good habits and prqcticed skills can all improve safety.
You're right though. Take some "old timer" who doesn't believe in checklists, ads-b, transponders, radios, iPads, all that new fangled crap. It's only a matter of time before he kills himself and/or others. It's a very unforgiving endeavor.
But with good training, and using the tools that are available to us, we can absolutely improve safety. The data is very clear on that.
ParkingOpportunity39@reddit
Get the iPad. It would be silly not to.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Don't wanna
ParkingOpportunity39@reddit
I’m saying this, because I think it’ll make you a safer pilot. But good luck.
JournalistSweet6597@reddit
Just did my first 200nm solo cross country in a 6 pack steam gauge plane with a paper map and paper nav log with a paper flight plan, it’s definitely possible and encouraged, use the I pad once you know how to do without.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
That's awesome. Was that flight in the last 10 years?
JournalistSweet6597@reddit
Yesterday haha
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Damn that's cool. You should be proud!
JournalistSweet6597@reddit
You can do it do, I bet a lot of schools have Germans now though but it’s definitely still possible, the tech aviation pioneers used is still just as effective today, give it a shot
JournalistSweet6597@reddit
Airplane did have a rudimentary GPS however could have done without but it was nice to have
Ace_Laminar@reddit
Honestly you should learn without one. I Only started flying in 2016 and I didn’t have an iPad until my first IFR job in 2020
EngineerFly@reddit
No, but it’s just easier with ForeFlight. It saves carrying a lot of paper that has to be kept current.
EngineerFly@reddit
You need to learn with paper and an E6B, then learn ForeFlight once you’re trained.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
You're saying I need foreflight? What if I don't want to use an iPad?
TheCultofLoss@reddit
It is easier to learn how to use an IPad than it is to learn how to use avionics, especially glass cockpits.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Why does ease matter?
weggaan_weggaat@reddit
As I'm sure you know, people learned to fly long before iPads existed. I would definitely recommend learning that way first then start adding iPad after you're moving along and have the basics down.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
And what if I don't *want* to use an iPad? That was my actual question.
AccomplishedDuck8587@reddit
Yes. Learning to fly doesn’t require a GPS or tech lol.
When you start doing navigation and cross country, the iPad with ForeFlight helps a LOT.
My biggest thing with the iPad is if you have an ADS-B In receiver. That gives you navigation, traffic, weather updates, etc. Really increases your capabilities and safety. The traffic alerts have already “saved” me twice..
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Well according to 99% of the commenters here, you can't fly without an iPad, it's too dangerous. Not the responses I was expecting.
Apart_Shelter_5722@reddit
The parts that actually matter are going to really be route planning and Filing, those can be done without foreflight. Its just going to be heavier.
Situational Awareness is pretty important and some digital map that you always know youre gonna have unless an emp hits.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
God sometimes I hope an EMP hits.
JJohnston015@reddit
If you're in the Portland area, I can recommend a CFI who only gives primary instruction, in a Cub. He'd be just what you want.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Love Portland but not located there sadly.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
Jesus!
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Has risen?
TheAnonymousPilot@reddit
It very much IS possible!
I'm a CFII at a 141, and we do not allow students to use an EFB until after they complete their PPL. We're in busy airspace, but sitational awareness, pilotage, dead reckoning, (ADS-B in some of the planes) plus a good ol' sectional chart and paper navlog does the trick!
Understanding and respecting the 'og' ways of doing things is important in this field. Learn how to use a wheel and a plotter. Sure, you can always use an EFB later on if you truly want, but why not give paper the good ol' college try? If it makes you feel any better, I have a couple students who refuse to buy an iPad or get a ForeFlight subscription so they just lug around their instrument charts and tab the important pages.
Don't flake on pursuing aviation if that's the only apprehension you have :)
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
redditburner_5000@reddit
100% of my training was sans any handheld tech, all post 2000. Nearly alll of my professional flying was without and handheld tech, through 2013.
You don't need apps or devices. Old-school works too, and you'll become of the (relatively) few who learn that way. In fact, you might be hard pressed to find a CFI who can teach without their iDevices. Integrating handheld tech is super simple if you know the "long ways around" from training.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
That's good!
EAP007@reddit
Pretty sure you should.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Seems like you're the minority opinion.
alexcees@reddit
not only you can, you should. It really makes me sad that VFR navigation nowadays is basically GPS following.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I agree.
LoungeFlyZ@reddit
Yes. However, if you are in a busy area with towered airports around etc.. you will likely not want charts and chart supplements cluttering up the cockpit. Foreflight really helps with consolidation of paperwork for looking up frequencies etc... not to mention additional situational awareness. I learnt in a busy area and an ipad was almost required.
If you are in a quite area, you might not need to bother while learning.
shoksurf@reddit
I didn’t start using my iPad until I got my PPL
jaynon501@reddit
Outside of the navigation aspect, being able to have all my books, charts, POHs, and other resources in one place is so so convenient.
lnxguy@reddit
Yes. Learn on paper first.
One-Cauliflower-8770@reddit
Let’s put it this way… if you had an iPad (which is an amazing tool and I def recommend one) I would still make you to learn on paper without the iPad. Atleast initially.
mc_scuse@reddit
The more I fly the less I use it. It’s a great tool to have available but overall it gets hard to use and hand-fly
neil350@reddit
I didn’t touch an iPad until I was in the left seat of a 747 in about 2008 (moving on from paper charting and plates) and it was quite an adjustment for my old noggin at the time….studying from an iPad seemed really odd to me too, as one who would spread all the airplane and company fcoms all over my desk at home rather than flip from window to window on the iPad…added bonus for me as I moved into wearing eyeglasses was the pinch/enlarge aspect on the iPad…ahhhh, aging!!
xSirFrito@reddit
Can you? Yes.
Would having an iPad save you valuable time, weight, and provide increased situational awareness/safety? Absolutely.
The iPad is simply a tool.
SuperFaulty@reddit
I remember one day 40 years ago when my flight instructor spoke against "equipment that might fail", at the time with the first calculators made specifically for aviation started to become widely available. His specific take was that there was no point in using a battery-powered calculator when a plastic Jeppessen CR-1 calculator could do the same job. The plastic CR-1 would never run out of battery, it would not get damages if it felt into a puddle of water, etc. Simplicity meant reliability.
That instructor likely died of old age already, and I'm in my 60s. I suppose things have really changed since then. No one uses "paper maps" anymore. Pilots have become accustomed to rely on electronics, iPads and auto-pilots. It's a different mindset I suppose. Progress? Seems to be working OK so far. I just miss the "old days" for no particular reason.
Sunsplitcloud@reddit
100%. Many of us got many ratings with paper maps and pencil nav logs. It’s infinitely easier and safe now to have the iPad honestly but sure you can use paper.
sawdriver@reddit
You’re forgetting carrying along an e6-b also to figure gs and the like. 🙂
Sunsplitcloud@reddit
Get a betting watch and do that easily on your wrist.
Adventurous_Bus13@reddit
I complted my PPL training in 2024 with no Ipad. I immedietly bought one after, and if I were to do it again I'd just use the ipad from the beginning. If you are going to do any IFR training I'd say its a must. The situational awareness it can give you is amazing. No reason you cannot do it without it, but it makes everything easier.
JSTootell@reddit
I did just about all my training without electronics, relatively recently. Did my checkride without it too. I don't need it now, but I like the added situational awareness it brings. But it isn't required.
Left_Chemistry_9739@reddit
I find them to be a big distraction on checkrides, and that's the last thing I need. If I don't have traffic on the panel, the examiner often brings his tablet anyway.
JSTootell@reddit
My DPE brought his own, and we were on Flight Following for the whole thing.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Great! Good to know.
Bluzzard@reddit
ADSB and knowing where traffic is. You won’t want to live without it once you get used to it.
JSTootell@reddit
Not everybody had adsb out. Don't rely on it over your eyes.
But yes, I (almost) always fly with my (non apple) tablet and Stratux.
Bluzzard@reddit
Most people do have ADSB. This isn’t a discussion about learning the basics. It’s a question about the value of an iPad. His instructor will make sure his eyes are outside and scanning.
adventuresofh@reddit
We have a ton of vintage aircraft in my area with no ADS-B. I’ve had consistent enough issues with mine freaking out (and yes, I have had the avionics shop look at it) that if I didn’t like to fly into big airports once in a while, I’d just get rid of it 🤷🏼♀️
Lots of areas in my state with little/no ADS-B coverage. It’s a great tool, but there are a lot of people flying without it.
Bluzzard@reddit
So what are you making the case for? Should pilots not have an iPad and ADSB in? Eyes outside is primary. Not arguing against it.
aftcg@reddit
Best avatar on reddit. I have Robin's mustache as a memorial to him
Bluzzard@reddit
I have a sticker of him on my truck. Love Robin Olds. Read his book in college. Been lucky enough to meet his daughter who co-authored the book.
aftcg@reddit
I met her too! My dad has a long career flying from 1952-2016. She inspired me to write his stories. I read their book in like 2 days. Definitely the best bio book I've ever read. We have no military history in our family after WWII, so this book gave me some important perspective. And, if I could lead half as well as he did, I'll be fine.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Limited value if you fly anywhere outside controlled airspace, due to the prevalence of aircraft without ADS-B OUT (or radios, sometimes).
Also pretty off-topic, seeing as the question is about iPads and their usefulness, not ADS-B IN (which you can see in the plane anyway, if you've a decent xpdr....)
Bluzzard@reddit
The ratio of aircraft emitting ADSB to not is way skewed. I would argue that a good portion of airplanes particularly in the GA category are emitting but do not have ADSB in. Last 2 flight schools I’ve been at went the cheap route. If I don’t fly with my ForeFlight Sentry and IPad I don’t see traffic. I earned my wings flying with a chart out in front of me and learned how to navigate the old fashioned way. I’m not going back to the chart. iPad for life.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Sure, two thirds to three quarters emitting, in my experience at least. Presumably varies in other parts of the world.
Then you have a problem, because there's aircraft out there you're consistently not seeing, even with the iPad.
Granite_burner@reddit
My flight training took forever, waiting for the iPad to be invented.
I finally got impatient and passed my checkride anyway.
Twenty years later Apple finally got off their tuchas and introduced the iPad.
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
There was a time when examiners made the argument that we shouldn’t rely on iPads because what if the window opens and it flies out?
I think their tune has changed.
Swarley02@reddit
Didn’t get an iPad until instrument. Where I trained, during your PPL everything had to be done on paper; like using a sectional to plot your route or if lost using VORs, weight and balance, MX sheets, etc.. Once I moved to IR, it was encouraged to get an iPad and ForeFlight for the ease of access to various airport plates.
The ratings can definitely be done without an iPad/technology, but in my opinion, it puts more work on you. Aviation technology isn’t a distraction if used correctly, but allows you to have better awareness, which makes you a safer pilot. But I definitely think you should be able to know how to do many things in aviation without technology in case your batteries die or lose a signal or something.
Cobbler-Boring@reddit
I’d say in the cockpit you shouldn’t begin to learn to use the iPad till towards the end of ppl. However not having an iPad for charts is just not a good idea. I didn’t get a iPad with cellular till towards the end of my IR and learning to navigate with the iPad being nothing more than a touch screen chart was perfect. Dealing with paper charts is I think to much of a hassle to be worth it, also learning to make navlogs and such on paper was extremely worth it.
Kemerd@reddit
Honestly, yes. But an iPad unironically may save your life. Anti technology is anti safety.
Computerized-Cash@reddit
I did it in 2022 with no iPad. Map, E6B, wxbrief.com
First-Length6323@reddit
You're going to need an instructor above the age of 35 who didnt make the airlines for one reason or another but isnt a complete bag of tools.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
It’s sounding like that Venn diagram doesn’t have an overlap…
First-Length6323@reddit
Honestly a lot of us can teach it... we are rusty and dont want to spend a bit getting back to speed then renting a plane etc
TjJeepin@reddit
Ask the Wright brothers
gromm93@reddit
I think that a surprising number of pilots on Reddit are very low tech people.
DeerSalt799@reddit
I left my house forgetting my IPad last week for a cross country. Fortunately I had other tools to quickly look up and save airport diagrams and approach charts. Weather info. Also theres GPS and plain old pilotage(in vfr). Its an inconvenience, but manageable.
imme267@reddit
Not required for PPL, but curious how you all are doing instrument without an iPad?
AIRdomination@reddit
The same way we did it before the iPads?
Rod-Serling-Lives@reddit
I learned wto fly without an iPad or any electronic flight planning during my PPL. Definitely have a deeper understanding and probably safer for having done that. That being said, I did use an iPad during my instrument training and you'd be a fool not to. In training for my commercial now. Once you go beyond PPL level the load it takes off you and increased situational awareness is invaluable.
Queasy_Platypus6333@reddit
Chiming in to with the same sentiment of can you? Absolutely. Is it a great extra bit of kit to have? Again, absolutely.
I did most all of my PPL without an iPad, sectional charts, a mini E6B, and analog gauges for a decent bulk of the flights.
Now that I’m training students I do the same thing my instructor did to me when I got ForeFlight and an iPad: I turn off ownership so they can’t use that to just look down and see where they are. I show them landmarks for reference points to airports in the area, pretty well forcing them to be looking outside the airplane.
The iPad is useful for pairing with a sentry for added situational awareness and being able to pull all the information you need from ForeFlight, BUT you should know how to search for traffic as well as any information you need through the traditional resources.
Going through instrument I had a very brief stint on being too reliant that was fixed quickly by my instructor and what he said wasn’t revolutionary or new, but was very true. The iPad is a tool, not a crutch. If you treat it as such you will still get the benefit of the information it has without becoming reliant on it.
Admirable_Meet_931@reddit
Did my whole PPL last year without looking at mine, which was under the paper sectional on my knee board, just in case.
Nathan_Wildthorn@reddit
I got my Private, IR, and MEL without using an iPad.
aftcg@reddit
Me too! In 1988. I hear ya can't even start an airplane without an iTabulator these days
Nathan_Wildthorn@reddit
Before I was medically DQ'd a few years ago, I still used paper charts for my flight planning and kept those charts in my flight bag. The only electronic accessory in my flight bag was a Jeppesen electronic flight computer. I did use electric charts and apph plates when flying long cross-country routes, however (I do love the GTN 750 & 650). Can I assume that you also hand-flew your airplane(s) as often as you could versus activating the autopilot as soon as you turned to course? 😉
aftcg@reddit
Crazy thing is my "new" plane has a 500, 530, 430 set up. I got into airliners when they got popular so I have little experience with them. The MEI I take up with me was born when the 530s were new, so he also has no experience with "that old stuff" I'm surprised we can get off the ground!
trickster503@reddit
I did private and mostly through instrument without an ipad
Zvenigora@reddit
The problem may be finding instructors who can still teach paper map skills. An increasing number of instructors cannot even remember when paper charts were commonly in use.
(Aside: ForeFlight is not the only EFB.)
kiwi_love777@reddit
I didn’t allow iPads until post solo when I CFI’s
When I was getting my private I was a flight attendant at the time making 19k a year- a $600 iPad was my checkride fee- I used paper charts until I went IFR.
giantmidget119@reddit
I don’t know how it is currently, but the FAA stated (or at least they did 10 years ago) that an EFB was only legal with paper backups or having another backup device. EFBs cannot replace nav equipment though as a primary source.
My CFI only had me use paper charts and analog methods cause you are supposed to know how to in the event that electronics can and will fail. I assume that most at least walk you through all of that, but it always seemed up to the CFI on what they primarily use for training.
buriedupsidedown@reddit
Serious answer. Yes, it should be fairly easy. For the first ratings your dpe may even insist on paper charts to demonstrate a better understanding of pilotage and dead reckoning (tho physically carrying an aim and phak sounds terrible if you don’t use some type of device). However, if you’d like to make this a career, I’d recommend familiarizing yourself because most companies have electronic flight bags on tablets. It also doesn’t hurt to have an iPad through training just to assist.
citationmustang@reddit
I'm a private pilot who doesn't fly much. Learned pre-ipad and glad I did. I think I would advocate for trying to to do things on paper maps and flipping through books if for no other reason than it teaches you a bit about being organized and multitasking in the cockpit. Same sort of reason I would advocate for learning without a glass cockpit. That said, once you've got those skills I would immediately go out and get an iPad. The ability to access information faster and streamline your workflow could be the thing that saves you in a task-saturated situation so for the sake of the cost of a few hours flying why would you avoid it?
Wild-Language-5165@reddit
There is a myth recorded in ancient times that man used to fly without iOS and ForeFlight. But of course, just bedtime stories really.
Wemest@reddit
Without is the best way to learn and you will be required to learn to navigate by pilotage and dead reconing. Once you become proficient then you will see the iPad is a useful tool. Don’t overthink this, take lessons and enjoy.
PatientFlight2274@reddit
I did private with no ipad at all. Its possible yes
asturdiamond@reddit
I would recommend it.
Creative-Grocery2581@reddit
Yes. I didn’t use iPad or Phone till I got my PPL. All paper and pencil.
Euphoric-Visual-6357@reddit
Ppl are going to be sarcastic but I personally think PPL and instruments certificates should be taught with paper charts. And then once certified, the IPad is a great tool in your bag. I also think you should be able to fly airways based on needles, VORs, find intersections, arc, etc without gps waypoints.
Your issue may be finding an instructor that is competent enough to fly anything that isn’t the magenta line
Yes, we have GPS now and it’s the dominant nav tool. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t know how to do it without.
bhalter80@reddit
Find someone who learned to fly before 2010ish, like me, we can certainly do it because that's all we had.
Yes you certainly can, it would actually be fun to teach
aftcg@reddit
We're a dying breed lol
bhalter80@reddit
Reality is with the VORs dying and the MON being aspirational I can teach paper charts but GPS will be needed
80000000D@reddit
Idk about your school but where I learned, they specifically DIDN'T want us to use the iPad. We needed to learn pilotage and dead reckoning.
-Cheebus-@reddit
I don’t know why you’re singling out iPads as bad when there is plenty of other technology being used in the plane like GPS, VOR receivers, electronic radios for comms etc. in a plane the iPad basically just acts like the GPS you already have or displays approach plates the same way a paper one looks. It’s not going to rot your brain anymore than the built in garmin GPS does
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I’m fine with GPS and all that. How do you not get why I’m singling out the iPad?
The iPad is not purpose-built for navigation. A Garmin is.
-Cheebus-@reddit
Get an iPad and uninstall every app except ForeFlight, there’s your purpose built navigation tool…I don’t use my iPad for anything other than ForeFlight, Sheppard air, and taking notes
Special-Ad1307@reddit
Yes you can. When you get your PPL they are inclined to teach you to do everything on paper anyway. You can take your checkride without ever touching an IPad. And the DPE cannot test you on foreflight/IPad items if you don’t bring one to the test.
As far as flying after you get your PPL, you would probably be fine flying in an Area you know well without any tech.
That being said, flying GA is dangerous and foreflight/Ipad is a huge step forward in terms of safety. Having ADSB weather is a huge advantage and has saved me from flying into weather that had gotten worse from the forecast I read while on the ground
adventuresofh@reddit
I think there’s a lot of value in learning on paper charts, at least through solo and with a cross country or two. I learned without an iPad and while it’s a fantastic tool, it’s just that. A tool. I say this as someone who has had multiple iPad failures and who has had partial and full electrical failures, and I only have 800 hours. I always keep at least a Seattle sectional in my airplane and I buy backup charts for longer cross countries. In the case of my Canada trip, I didn’t want to upgrade ForeFlight for one trip so I just ordered the area charts for where I was going online.
You might have to look for a flight school but there are absolutely instructors who teach that way.
PumpiePapa@reddit
I only use paper checklists, charts and notes on my kneeboard and I'm doing fine. A tablet can be nice but you don't need it to fly.
mupepe9@reddit
I went through PPL without an iPad in 2022. I’d not recommend it after realizing how much harder I made it on myself fiddling with charts mid flight. But you can do it.
Bunslow@reddit
I'm sick of the reliance on apple products specifically. Right now I use my phone as my efb, altho im not sure if ill be able to get away with that in the future.
trying to fly without any efb... well that sounds pretty tough. or at least inconvenient, depending on what you're trying to do. if you're trying to do ifr all over the country, it's impractical, if you're doing VFR within 200 miles of home, thats rather more practical to go paper only.
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
JFC
Virian@reddit
I didn’t start using an iPad until after I got my PPL. I leaned pilotage and dead reckoning the old fashioned way with paper charts, a plotter, and an E6B.
Outside_Abies4161@reddit
Of course, however you are just increasing the risk for yourself for no obvious reason - an iPad connected to wifi (mobile hotspot) will have things like new NOTAMs and updated METARs at a click of a button, as well as screaming at you if youre about to go into airspace you shouldnt.
I actually encourage you should learn at least up to PPL with charts, but when you're flying afterwards you will eventually try out someone elses iPad for a flight and then you'll never go back.
chairmanyagami@reddit
I would still get an iPad and a sentry for the traffic and situational awareness. Of course people did it without before but just because they did doesn’t mean we should.
Flintlock1990@reddit
Honestly…. Dumb question bud
aftcg@reddit
By reading all the comments, it seems like it's a great question
Flintlock1990@reddit
iPad came out in 2010…. Flight has been a thing much longer than that….
Qbert2030@reddit
My flight school didnt let us use iPads or strongle discouraged it untill our prog 5 (cpl nav test)
_-Cleon-_@reddit
Of course you can. The trick will be finding a CFI or flight school who's willing to teach you using the Old Magic, with paper charts and plotters.
aftcg@reddit
Imma taking your "Old Magic" and applying it to when I fly with the kids at the flight school
fly123123123@reddit
Yes, but I’d recommend trying it. My iPad has saved me several times. ADS-B, hazard advisor, easy-to-access frequencies, geo-referenced charts, and weather briefings are all lifesaving tools.
JJay512@reddit
Here’s what I’ve found… Students that start on an iPad do not (usually) have a reference of where things are and what to look for. In fact, once I put the paper IAP book in one of my student’s hands, it’s like a lightbulb went off and he was amazed how easy everything was to find after struggling with the EFB. Then I tasked him to find where everything was on his EFB app. Once he knew what to look for by having reference to what was physical, it made the digital totally click in his mind. He could use the EFB fine for basic tasks, but really couldn’t reference to anything for oral questions as there was zero, and I mean ZERO connection. This isn’t an isolated issue, as I’ve observed this with many other students (not just mine).
makgross@reddit
I’ve had this experience as well. I have students fly without location services until they demonstrate they can read the damn chart and know where they are. They can use the EFB as a chart if they want. The former club I taught at (unfortunately out of business now) gave local TACs to all members as part of membership, so everyone had one. Students could visibly correlate landmarks better with the paper TAC; the difference appeared to be scale, and students got lost because they didn’t know how far anything was on the iPad. Most insisted on using the iPad anyway.
aftcg@reddit
This is a great observation
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Yeah I don’t intend on using the iPad.
HateJobLoveManU@reddit
Chuck Yeager swore by them
aftcg@reddit
So did Bob Hoover
retiredaaer@reddit
Find a single engine tailwheel aircraft and learn how to fly. Electronics are just a tool. Learn how to fly without them. Be a pilot. Not a button pusher.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I feel like people didn’t read the question or understand my attitude towards technology. You do know I am on your side right?
aftcg@reddit
This old pilot understands
aftcg@reddit
Exactly. Sauce: old pilot
Disallow0382@reddit
You're dead right.
s2soviet@reddit
You should learn without an iPad
WenWas93@reddit
During training, the only electronic I was allowed to use in the cockpit was my CX-3. The C172 I used was equipped with a GNS530 but I wasn't allowed to use it other than for radios.
CapeGreg767@reddit
How do you think we did it before Apple came along? Without an iPad!
compulsive_drooler@reddit
Yes, and it's also possible to drive a car without seatbelts, airbags, power steering, anti-lock brakes, safety glass, muffled exhaust, or any of a thousand other safety and convenience advancements that have been made in cars. And yet, even having chosen to be a low-tech person I'll bet you still take advantage of most of those. Flying with something like ForeFlight on an iPad is really not much different. Why would you willingly choose to forego something that makes flying easier, safer and more convenient when the option is available?
I say this having learned to fly without it only about 10 years ago, mostly because it was newer and not encouraged by my instructors, but I quickly embraced it and wouldn't fly without it now, even just in the pattern around the field.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
How are those technologies even comparable to an iPad?
Sometimes I hope we do have some kind of apocalypse event so people like you will be forced not to rely on your big baby tablets for everything.
primalbluewolf@reddit
It'll be rough for almost everyone, not just folks using iPads.
Dependencies creep in, so easily, without being noticed.
These guys are selling a product, but the point they make about GPS is valid: https://www.anellophotonics.com/blog/when-gps-fails-on-the-battlefield
Another one from a US Navy training exercise in 2007: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20202-gps-chaos-how-a-30-box-can-jam-your-life/
A surprising number of systems use GPS for its time signal alone. One example: secure voice and data links such as Link-16 typically achieve coarse sync with GPS time, and then refine that to a fine sync by exchanging messages with other platforms they're now synced to, improving their synchronisation over time. Take out GPS and new platforms can't seem to join the net.
Disallow0382@reddit
Those things you mentioned are required by law. The last time I checked, having an iPad onboard isn't a requirement.
@OP, the iPad enhances your situational awareness and flight management. You can definitely learn to fly without one.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Airbags not required by law, seatbelts not required by law, power steering not required by law, ditto ABS.
Car manufacturers are required to sell cars fitted with these things. Car drivers are not required to drive cars fitted with these things, unless the car was originally fitted with them. This is why you don't see Ford FJs with seatbelts... they were never originally an option on the car when it was new, and they weren't required. Still perfectly legal to drive that car today, with no seatbelt, no ABS, no airbags, no power steering, for that matter no safety glass... and if you really want to go back a bit, there's cars on the road today that don't have a muffled exhaust that are road legal, too.
Well, your example was ForeFlight, so I would argue it achieves none of those things - not to mention I think paper charts are now cheaper than their new subscription costs...
Disallow0382@reddit
If those things aren't required by law in your country, then that's a shame. Analogy asides, iPad isn't a requirement, at least not in the three countries where I gained my ATPL's.
If a pilot can't fly without his iPad, then he has no business being in a cockpit.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
He’s in the US, he’s talking about grandfathering for old cars.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Though it doesn't make a difference so far as I see it - I'm not in the US, if you were referring to me.
I still don't know of any country that has banned the use of cars manufactured before 1971, though - the date car ABS became available - or 1927, the date automotive safety glass started to be used? I've driven a 1928 Model A Ford on the road before, no seatbelt, no power steering, no laminated glass, certainly no ABS, no airbags.
It does have a muffler, though.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Is there any country that does require those things?
Exactly my point.
Distinct_Cap_1741@reddit
No. The wright brothers designed the airplane in such a way they cannot be flown without an iPad. Just another way Apple sticks it to the little guy and forces us to purchase their crap.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
Yeah no need to be sarcastic since I am on your side. I agree with you.
eSUP80@reddit
You can learn the fundamentals of flight an navigation- yes. But once you train instrument, start going out regularly on cross countries, or practicing maneuvers solo in busy training airspace… you’ll see quickly why you need an iPad and an ADS-B receiver.
perispomene@reddit
I'm learning without, and I'll transition later. I want to learn VFR and get good at recognizing landmarks and airports without a lot of help from technology, because the tech lets you down at the worst times.
All said, I'm glad my instructor has his iPad out and is watching the airspace on it. If we elect to change plans en route, it's faster and less clumsy on the iPad than with paper charts.
italianthestallion@reddit
Id even argue you definitely should learn without them. Learn the basics of doing everything by hand first. I didn't get a tablet for flying until after I had my ppl. While it's nice to have, it definitely isn't necessary.
CorporalCrash@reddit
Yes.
iPad is more practic for real world flying but training with paper charts and a wiz wheel is not that much more difficult
Quasi26@reddit
My flight school never allowed the use of an iPad. I never used one for flying until I completed my PPL.
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
Yep. Enjoy folding and unfolding and flipping that sectional.
dyaddaw@reddit
Yes, these charts are still available, but getting tougher to purchase.
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
That’s sad.
if_a_sloth-it_sleeps@reddit
I mean, I raw dog it… and I know people love their iPads but my dad just uses a Samsung tablet and it works fine. The iPad is nicer but it isn’t a big deal to me.
That said, I generally don’t fly anywhere that busy 🤷♀️ I would be happy to have an iPad but I think it’s crazy to say that every pilot needs one and is unsafe without it
redbarchetta97@reddit (OP)
I agree, and yet a lot of people are saying that…
Most of the pilots I know are in the NY metro so now I kind of understand why they swear by iPads.
Darth_Atheist@reddit
It's just a tool that makes you safer and more efficient. It's totally up to you.
Flaky_Summer_9800@reddit
You don’t need it for PPL training, but your either need some old fashioned paper charts or an iPad for instrument training.
Continental-IO520@reddit
iPad only once licenced. Having one for pre PPL sequences absolutely fucks your scan rate. Not much of a choice in Australia anyway, every student needs to be able to pass a PPL test without relying on an iPad.
iamflyipilot@reddit
Yes even some of the big pilot mill flight schools don’t allow you to use an iPad for private pilot.
LokiSierra612@reddit
My flight school specifically prohibits iPads on training flights before CPL build up time, so it's definitely doable (and somewhat pricey)
xynix_ie@reddit
I've never used a pad of any type to fly 😆
SvenSylens@reddit
You can buy the iPad is going to improve your situational awareness and make you a safer pilot.
SSMDive@reddit
Yes and I think people should learn the basics prior to adding these types of things.
If you show you can do proper XC flight planning on paper, then you understand all the concepts. Adding an iPad at that point just makes it faster. But if you just start with an iPad you may never actually get the concepts.
Just like auto pilot. They are fantastic. But if you started using one on day one you still would get where you are going, but you would lack some pretty basic flying skills. So get the skills, then add the safety devices.
GeneralCross2@reddit
Yes you can but the iPad makes it easier. Androids do have apps similar but ForeFlight is just too good and is only on apple products
JailYard@reddit
I was away from flying for 10 years during which Foreflight became ubiquitous.
The first thing I did when I got to the FBO for my first refresher flight was to ask to buy a current sectional chart. The look on the guy's face was hilarious.
tehmightyengineer@reddit
Sure, you totally can. I use an Android.
Left_Chemistry_9739@reddit
Most android tablets come with GPS standard. You pay $150 extra for it with Apple.
Ipads are overpriced. Substantially.
TristanwithaT@reddit
Performance and optimization of iPads is leaps and bounds better than any android tablets.
pballer2oo7@reddit
None of my Android tablets have ever shut themselves off in flight xD
gnowbot@reddit
Untrue. They all have gps. Cellular service costs extra.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Not the iPads the commentator was referring to, no.
WiFi + Cellular model iPads have a GPS chip built in. WiFi only models can use location, but they do so by inference - looking at which WiFi networks are visible nearby you by their SSID, and comparing that to known reception maps to infer location. Horrifying, this is accurate enough to have decent precision in a lot of cities. Not remotely useful for positioning in flight, though, which is why most EFB apps will recommend you purchase a Cellular model iPad - so that you have a built-in GPS chip.
pimbaman1337@reddit
I finished my military pilot training some years ago. I guess we could call it old fashioned training. We flew IFR with a 6 pack and had to do fix-2-fix flying with no help, just pure pen magic. Believe me, once you know how to fly the old fashioned way, your ego wont let you pickup an ipad.
sirduckbert@reddit
Yes. Just ask. IMO you should learn the old way first just to understand what the tablet is doing. I’ve screwed my foreflight profile up before, and my mental math sanity check that I developed flying with paper maps saved me.
That being said, you should learn some of the tech eventually. Foreflight has a billion features and you don’t have to use all of them. But file a flight plan once on an iPad and once on the phone and tell me what’s better
ithrewakidinthewell@reddit
I did my whole CPL with no iPad. Got one for instrument rating, I would recommend it there since VFR charts are one thing, but carrying all of those approach charts is NOT something I'd want to do
350RDriver@reddit
Did my private training without it. ADS-B wasn't widespread yet.
My students don't use one until proving they can fly a solo XC without one.
Then I introduce it so they can do both.
Outrageous-Many-2928@reddit
Yes, my wife earned her PPL last year with paper maps and manual calculations. She used the iPad as a double check and backup to paper. As a pilot myself (45 yrs experience) having a moving map with traffic, weather and TFR’s right there is a major leap in safety. Situation awareness is much better. Now you can spend 90% of your time looking outside. Which is where the things that will kill you are. “See and Avoid”. Good luck!
jjamesr539@reddit
There’s nothing wrong with doing it the old way (it’s extremely easy to go from paper charts and plotting to an iPad,much more difficult the other way), but it may be somewhat difficult to find an instructor that knows how to teach it, and it may be somewhat difficult to find an easy source for charts. Not saying at all that they don’t exist, but most people who were instructing when manual e6b computers, sectionals, plotters, and paper nav logs are sitting in airliners full time by now. They work just as well though.
Mithster18@reddit
Yes. We as people absorb information on screens differently than physical things.
iPads are OK, but it's like learning to drive an automatic or a tesla and then you jump in something that's not that and everythings a bit harder
HSVMalooGTS@reddit
I do it lol. Nothing is stopping you from using paper maps. I like to have a navigator, sometimes i invite people for it.
VP1@reddit
Maybe I’m crazy but I fly around SoCal just fine with paper charts. Shrug.
poisonandtheremedy@reddit
No adsb-in awareness flying around the busiest terminal airspace in the world? That’s interesting.
VP1@reddit
See and avoid
Bergasms@reddit
And if you don't see and don't avoid, it won't matter to you either way i guess. Works 100% of the time for every pilot who is still here to tell us about it.
Lamathrust7891@reddit
My instructor banned all use of the Ipad during flying.
it was used to download the training briefs, TAFs \Notams then put in the cargo compartment for the flight
RealP4@reddit
Yes lol as you should
jsisson801@reddit
In my experience … 240 hours PPL I mainly use the iPad for traffic since GA is the Wild West and I’ve been less than a mile on final coming in to land and an old guy came out and took the runway and almost flew into me. It was one of the most informative lessons with my cfi. Otherwise I enjoy flying without the tech. I’d rather have it and not need it- then need it and not have it. But your phone could also work with foreflight. I enjoyed the paper charts and nav logs without the iPad
ItsReallyLebron@reddit
Did my PPL in 2021 without an Ipad and never had a problem lol. The ipad stuff these days is pretty crazy and cool to see though! I use it nowadays though. More stuff to do and look at via charts and plates and writing down clearances and stuff. But is it doable yes
LowTimePilot@reddit
I did most my training pre-iPad's back when you had to buy charts, plates, E6B's. I did initial instrument training in round gauged instruments in mountainous terrain.
It's a skill that, if I end up using today, a lot of other things already went wrong. It sucked and I wouldn't wish that on the next generation of pilots. Keep the iPad charged, have a backup, and maybe a paper chart at the bottom of your bag in case a solar flare knocks everything out or whatever.
Fine_Fortune844@reddit
If you ask our 141 instructor he will say no. And that’s a NO in an aircraft that has ADSB in and out plus nexrad. 😆
PenguinOnWaves@reddit
Where I live is paper map and navlig standard equipment for PPL. Most probably for IR too, not sure about it just yet 😁
Nobody cares if you fly solo PICs afterward with device or keep paper
Human_Grass@reddit
Yes. And it’s good to know how to fly without an iPad because it’s good to have a backup. I started last year and learned by drawing lines and measuring stuff on paper maps, navigating with a compass and a watch. My instructor allowed me to start using an iPad last month and it makes things 10x easier though…
Frost_907@reddit
Yes…
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I am interesting in learning to fly, but I am also a pretty low-tech person, by choice. The people I know who fly all swear by iPads, and it seems like the method of choice for most new pilots.
Will I still be able to learn without this? Will schools be willing to do it the old way? I just want charts, instruments, and a radio.
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