The Civil War
Posted by DravenTor@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 26 comments
Ever contentious subject that I think most people haven't fully thought through. The whole "American Experiment" was doomed from the start really. Even Washington took 13,000 troops to put down the whiskey rebellion at Alexander Hamilton's behest which he had no constitutional right to do so.
shutthefuckupkaren12@reddit
Is this a joke? The CSA never gave a solitary shit over states rights and fought 100% for slavery. If you look at their actions, they forced unwilling states to accept conscription and new taxes that were worse than anything in the Union. Posts like this only serve to make Libertarians look bad and are why we will never be taken seriously.
DUIguy87@reddit
That and, if I’m misremembering let me know, the south seceded then attacked and proceeded to invade the Union. Kind of fucks up the victim narrative a bit tho, so I can see why they left it out.
Kur0d4@reddit
Right! The South never cared about States rights, it was a smokescreen. They willingly pushed the Fugitive Slave Act which ignored States right to determine their own stance on slavery and compelled free states to enforce the will of slave states within their borders.
Zaggnabit@reddit
The South never cared about States’ Rights. One of their grievances was that Non Slave States would not hold and return escaped slaves and would not recognize any authority for slave capture agents (read that as gangs).
The simple reality is that slavery gave some landowners in the south, especially the Deep South, outsized political power but it was hampered by not being able to expand it with new states in the West.
It has been argued as well that slavery actually cost the Confederacy the war to some degree. Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia didn’t really have the population of free landowners needed to raise significant forces, that’s why Virginia is so outsized in the history of the conflict, it had a relatively small slave population but a very large citizenry who ended up being on the actual front lines due to geography.
If anything, the Executive Authority of the Confederacy was as much an issue as what Lincoln did. Currency manipulations, forced conscriptions of men who never had a stake in slavery as an institution and permitting the abuse of land seizures of veterans who fell in battle if they didn’t have male children old enough to own land, which was also about the time they could be conscripted.
Executive Power expands because the rest of the political class allows it. It’s easier to let a President eat the blame for failures while term limits allow the legislature to effectively claim credit for successes after the fact. PAC money and Dark Money actually accelerate this dynamic as it’s much more comfortable getting paid off to let the Executive branch overreach.
The Confederacy would have been worse if it had survived. Not that it was likely to have been relevant fifty years on.
Slavery was already showing its economic and cultural weaknesses in civilizational comparisons when the war broke out. The Confederacy just illustrated how slavery was also a political weakness as well.
lesmobile@reddit
The South was fighting for slavery and the North was fighting against states rights.
Alan_Turings_Apple@reddit
I gotta say the American Experiment is quite succesful, we've outlasted almost every Government that was around when we were founded. With the exception of GB and San Marino.
Do not lament its passing, feel glee that you knew it at all.
Anen-o-me@reddit
Did it though. Whiskey rebellion did to farmers what Britain was doing to tea, the entire point of the revolution was to escape punitive taxation. Washington put it down by force.
Within 80 years Lincoln had already destroyed the union and made it compulsory. Took Athens 300 years to pull that move. Etc.
By 1920 the political elites had completely taken over and installed their own money printing system by destroying gold and silver and private currencies in the USA.
Alan_Turings_Apple@reddit
There’s a lot more to the revolution than just taxes, that’s reductive.
The Union was always compulsory, the Founders were intentional in not placing a exit process into the constitution
Is there anything that is against small L liberal values in fiat currency? It doesn’t inherently violate property rights. With global currency markets the currency itself also competes in a liberal free market.
DravenTor@reddit (OP)
I get what you are saying, but "The American Experiment" wasn't meant to simply create a lasting government. It was meant to hold to certain truths and philosophies that have been completely forgotten and abandoned at this point.
Alan_Turings_Apple@reddit
Small L liberalism was going to die with globalization, it was inevitable. You simply cannot have a weak federal state and expect to be anything but a vassal to a bigger meaner one. But it was great while it lasted.
I think it has little to do with philosophies being abandoned vs realizing their shortcomings in a world that is everchanging.
DravenTor@reddit (OP)
Those were all choices, though. It's not that the world globalized, so we had to become more authoritarian in response.
It's that globalization was chosen in favor of classical liberal ideals. We created the new world order after WW2 with our government at the helm. Creating ever stronger central governments and agencies to "solve" the world's problems.
Alan_Turings_Apple@reddit
I don’t think we have as much agency as you do. I think globalization was coming whether it was enforced by the US or not.
Economies of scale, the plummeting of shipping costs and Atomic weapons making large scale warfare infeasible all combined would mean nations are going to find trade and specialization favorable to self sufficient, inefficient economies.
Our philosophies are adapting to the changing world imo, more than our philosophies changing the world.
TJ-WhosYoMomma@reddit
Yeah but it was also primarily supposed to crate a lasting government. That was always the goal
SendPonies@reddit
Dixieshits forced the United States into a position of having to either expand the powers of the federal government or face destruction and all so slaveowners could continue owning other humans
natermer@reddit
Only a small minority of the people living in the South actually owned slaves. People who owned the slaves were the wealthier types that didn't do much of the actual fighting.
Which means that slavery isn't the reason the bulk of the actual people choose to participate in the war.
Slavery was a big deal, but it wasn't the only deal going on.
SendPonies@reddit
If by small minority you mean around one-in-three, then sure
natermer@reddit
I guess I was wrong.
SendPonies@reddit
I can't find a link to his source, but Atun-Shei talked about the idea that the south was footing the bill for the federal government and I think he showed that it was actually New York City that was doing that
Alan_Turings_Apple@reddit
The income tax was WW1
SendPonies@reddit
Income taxes were also used to help raise money to fund the Union war effort
DravenTor@reddit (OP)
Yup
Anen-o-me@reddit
Troof. Lincoln not being a hero was a tough realization. He used the evil of total slavery to establish partial slavery over all.
heartbt@reddit
PREACH IT!!!
But to your point, some in the south WANTED the fight to be about states rights, but the money hungry among them would not relinquish slavery. Interestingly enough, it was dominantly Appalachia that was most willing to fight for sovereignty and cared little for slavery. But overall, there were just too few southerners opposed to slavery for state sovereignty to be the major issue.
Good call!
TheAffluentCoyote@reddit
We're figuring it out. It's hard.
DravenTor@reddit (OP)
Haha, yeah. I just hope people can figure it out before our authoritarian governments turn us all into smoldering piles of radioactive ash.
TheAffluentCoyote@reddit
Whatever way it ends, it ought to be the human way!