Purchased a car with cat delete, any recourse?
Posted by Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 75 comments
I purchased a car from out of state, it was a private sale. after I brought it to my home state, it passed inspection and all is well. Being an older car, high mileage, as well as having some known issues with that year/model - when it started having a rough idle after a cold start I went looking for a mechanic.
Well, y'all, it doesn't have a catalytic converter. it was deleted and tuned. I'm too shocked to be rational, so I wanted some external input. I can't even be sure the guy I bought it from was aware. the car passed inspection in the former state last year, and it passed inspection here this year. Cat deletes are illegal in my country, and obviously illegal in both states it was inspected in.
what do I do? take it to an exhaust shop and have them put one in? rat out the former owner along with two inspection shops that missed it? I'm tired.
obviously I'm so ashamed for not catching this that I had to make a burner account š¤¦āāļø
AlaskaGreenTDI@reddit
Rather than rat out those places, just go back to one of them for your next inspection.
jrileyy229@reddit
This is indeed logical... But also if you think you have leverage on them, good luck proving that it didn't have the cat there before and you just removed it.... Which is what they would say
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
I don't want leverage. I want them to apologize for making my scrape the tint off the windows. /S
jrileyy229@reddit
Sure...Ā I don't blame you, but that wasn't their decision.Ā You can blame your state for that.
Ultimately, sounds like they were good to you.Ā They wouldn't pass you for something cheap and easy they knew was going to get you pulled over practically immediately, and potentially come back on them.... But did pass you on something they knew nobody was going to see and saved you two grand
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
I agree that this is the proverbial gift horse with the mouth I shouldn't inspect. But I don't think they passed the cat as a favor. My guess is that they didn't lift the car to look for it.
I'll add the subsequent inspection from a VW mechanic lead to no safety issues that were missed.
The cat delete comes across as a butcher job that resulted in pipes welded to places they shouldn't be, and full of pinhole. I have to get the exhaust fixed before next snow season, but whether or not I should install a new cat? That's a whole can of worms I don't understand well enough. And finding an exhaust shop to work on this might be tricky.
jrileyy229@reddit
Well, that I suppose possible. You can't inspect a car without putting it on a lift, but that doesn't prevent someone from just taking their $100 and slapping a sticker on it and doing zero actual effort.
AlaskaGreenTDI@reddit
You can absolutely inspect a car without putting it on a lift.
jrileyy229@reddit
How do you check to make sure the cat hasn't been removed? How do you check for leaks? How do you look at brake pads and look for rust? Most brake pads you need to look down inside the caliper.
I mean sure, put the car up on 4 jack stands and crawl under it I guess, I don't know who is doing that
AlaskaGreenTDI@reddit
Weāre talking about a state inspection which doesnāt really have anything to do with leaks. You look at brake pads by removing wheels regardless of whether youāre using a lift or a floor jack. It isnāt hard to quickly check if a cat is present even if only lifted as far as a floor jack will go. While you may not know who is doing this, there are absolutely some state inspections done with a floor jack.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Both states in question here required a visual confirmation that the cat is in place, relying ecm data to "pass" the emissions portion of the inspection. Tires, brakes, etc are performed under the safety portion of the inspection.
jrileyy229@reddit
Well, okay, fair, not all state inspections are the same. Some states don't even have them.
mds818@reddit
Here's the tip - sell the car, get yourself another one with a cat.
Your mechanic ia not a great one for sure, and clearly you don't know whaz's real useage of cat converter in real world.
Curiousand40@reddit
Yes. Because that makes more sense than just having a shop install a cat and adjusting the ecm.
Come now. Overreact much?
mds818@reddit
The issue is price of the car vs price of the cat... if he has to pay 1000, 1500 for some A to B shitbox (not in a negative context) its just not worth it... and he's overreacting about the cat...
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Ther aren't any $1000-$1500 cars around here, friendly. I had to buy out of state for a rust free car under 5K.
mds818@reddit
You're missing the point a bit... in from europe and used car marketplace is way more expensive here... for 5k you can either get 20yo sedan with like 180k miles or a 15yo hatchback with like 140k miles, with questionable history at very least and whatever if it's rusty or not... well - depends on where you take it from.. not to mention all the import taxes if you're buying from another country...
335i e9x is 20k on average... compare that to whatever is price in the US (a blatant example, but still)
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Ohhh, I do believe the market difference is the least of the differences between europe and the US in the particular situation. The US used car market is very regional. In my region, 4wd and rust-free used cars demand a premium well above "market" value. This car is about 15 years old with 200K miles, AWD and rust free. the same year model with similar mileage is 8k-15k here. I flew to purchase this car and drove it 700 miles from a relatively rust free, and flush used car market. This car is an A-B shitbox that can't be replaced in my current area for anything comparable. Repair is more feasible than selling and buying and alternative right now
Amarathe_@reddit
I would replace the cat. Its a bit pricey but its the right thing to do. If you have to save up for it then do so, dont stop driving the car though. Its passed inspection so its "legal".
As for recourse you have none. You can report the shops if you want to but i think youd just be making things harder on yourself if you did. Not a big deal mind you more of a mild headache. Dealing with the government always is.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Thanks, I don't actually want recourse, I'm just dramatic. I assure you I won't go after the shop or the seller.
To reverse the cat delete or not, seems like a bigger issue than just replacing the catalytic converter. Unless I'm misunderstanding some of these comments.
Amarathe_@reddit
Theres 3 paths you can go;
1) replace any modified exhaust parts with oem. Not cheap especially if they did a full system.
2) have a universal cat cut in. It wont be as effective as oem but it will be a fraction of the price.
3) run catless. Its not a great idea but its free so i felt obliged to include it.
Obviously the first option is the "right" way to do it but i dont know your financial situation so i dont want to just tell you spend $3k on a whole new system (if thats what it would need, idk)
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Thanks! I'll look further into these options.
JustaYnLivin@reddit
It passed you should be happy. But if you feel like you're going to get sent to prison and have to put it back so you can sleep at night well get ready to pay. Cats are not cheap and then pay to install , then you would have to pay some one to detune it as well because with them in place it will most likely run like shit, throw codes and possibly destroy the new cat prematurely. And yes it's all on you now the seller has no liability.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
I think that you've hit my biggest concern. What is the easiest path forward with this car. The cat delete should make it difficult to find an exhaust shop to work on this. There are a couple problematic welds and non eom bends in the exhaust that are rubbing, those will lead immediately to a lot of rust being in a wet, salty, northern state. If an exhaust shop requires me to install a cat, how problematic would it actually be in the long run? I need to to run as a daily driver for a couple years before it can be a project
JustaYnLivin@reddit
Most muffler shops should be able to build a exhaust and add cats, just find a way to detune for the car to run good you might be able to get away with just driving slower and no WOT until then.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Seller has no liability, yes. And it my dramatic flailing I demanded recourse! But I'll be real, no way in hell I'm giving up this rust free beaut!
skinisblackmetallic@reddit
Find a mechanic who doesn't care and will tune it to run reliably and send it.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
That's the real advice right there! But I need to drive my kids in it for a couple years first.
Appropriate-Gap34@reddit
Drive it like you stole it. Free upgrade. In my state you can get classic car insurance and if its driven less then 6k per year no inspection required.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Nice! It's a 2013, daily driver. I don't think this will qualify for an exemption.
reidft@reddit
Oh no!
Anyways
Dude's acting like it's some great shame to drive a car with no cat. Nobody cares except the California cops bro.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Of all the shame, I AM a California cop!!! (I jest, as I did in a small portion of my post.) I'm in the northeast, originally from the southeast. My shame comes from many things, and one source is feeling like information was withheld by someone I trusted upon buying the car.
The actual problem now is to fix the shitty Frankenstein exhaust before it rust out. No reputable shop will touch the exhaust on a car with a cat delete. I know some of y'all are like, "just tig the exhaust to the undercarriage" which is what was done to this car.
NurmalMan@reddit
What do you mean it's illegal to do a delete in your country and in both states? If you are in the US, it varies by state, and if it passed inspection who cares, the only time it would matter again is if you need to do another inspection. People do cat deletes to get better airflow and is not what would be causing your issues, so it literally doesn't matter.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Lol! Cat deletes are federally illegal in the US. And the fine for deleting/tampering with emissions/exhaust is greater than the cost of the car. Both states it was inspected in specifically have laws requiring a working catalytic converter in order to pass inspection. Though they only require a visual inspection of the cat, relying on computer data to prove it's working. Speaking of computers, it's also illegal the reprogram ecms to get around emissions controls.
I need the exhaust repaired and no reputable shop will touch this car without the cat intact. The delete was sloppy, welded to the body and rubbing where it shouldn't. The entire exhaust system will rust out by this time next year if not repaired.
So, this won't fix the issue I went to the mechanic for, I was concerned about a rough idle on cold start. Rich exhaust was one of my concerns too, and it's pretty apparent why that is happening.
Pineydude@reddit
They look under cars with mirrors in my state to look for illegal exhaust modifications.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Here there required to lift the car far enough to visually inspect the exhaust components.
kentuckyMarksman@reddit
This happened to me once, previous owner hollowed out the cats. No inspections in my state. I put a new car in it, it was the right thing to do.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
That's how I assumed deletes were done! What I'm reading it's that the tuning done on the engine is difficult to reverse.
kentuckyMarksman@reddit
If it were me, Iād put a new car on, but wouldnāt worry about reversing the programming. Iād leave that as is. You having a cat on the car is all you need to be legal.
smthngeneric@reddit
Why are you so worried about it if it passed inspection twice? Also private sales are "as is" so the previous owner owes you absolutely nothing and there's nothing you can really do to them. You can try and "rat out" the places it got inspected but again who fucking cares. I wouldn't make it a mission to ruin some random shop because some guy didn't care you had a cat delete. Matter of fact id go back there every year intentionally lmao.
Tldr: get over it.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Ohhh, I wouldn't rat anyone out. Not the shops or the former owner. I'm in snow tire country and my tire shop did the inspection, I'm not burning that bridge. I'm just surprised they slipped on this, it is in my benefit though. A passed inspection was required for registration/tags.
The mechanic I took the car to essentially said the same thing, take it back to the same shop for inspections. Lol
smthngeneric@reddit
You literally asked if you should rat them out but now it's "id never do that" lmao
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I was being dramatic. I would be feeling a bit more dramatic if I hadn't passes inspection, leading to sorting the cat out on a 30 day timeline, so there's that.
But no, reporting my local inspection station would be monstrous. It's a corporate shop, but my community members employed there, and that's would take the hit on their license.
Curiousand40@reddit
How could those places even get in trouble? If it passes smogā¦ it passes. Or am I missing something?
smthngeneric@reddit
In some places even if it passes smog it's still required to have a cat. Im not sure if that applies where op is (probably not) but in some places it is a big deal and they could get fined to holly hell. Matter of fact I think it's a nationwide law that it's illegal to remove cats just every state handles what to do if they're already gone differently.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Both states the car has been registered in require yearly emissions and safety inspection. Emissions is read by computer and the cat requires visual inspection.
IMHO, A Cat delete should involve hollowing out a catalytic converter and leaving it in place so there aren't issues stemming from a missing cat. But that's just my opinion on OTHER people's cars.
smthngeneric@reddit
It usually sounds like shit if you just hollow it out. Turns it into one big resonance chamber.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Oh, that make sense.
Professional_Lo@reddit
Yep! In fact in Georgia the state asks that you check for it. You can still pass with it missing but if the overseeing body ever found out that it happened the inspector would be fined or if they have a history of doing that and they know it the state could try to press charges against the guy who let it slide.
Curiousand40@reddit
Interesting.
I always love learning about the different laws and such in different states. Even in the southeastā¦ things can vary wildly.
Curiousand40@reddit
Ok. Appreciate the info. I havenāt ever dealt with a cat delete. And I also havenāt ever had a car inspected. My state (though I have moved around, Iāve always had property here and my vehicles licensed here) doesnāt require inspections. Well. Not annual one. The sheriff does an āinspectionā with the initial licensing.. which is ādo the lights work? And what is the mileage on the odometer?ā
jrileyy229@reddit
Many places do not have smog. In order to pass state inspection, it still must have the cat .. But there's no sniffer that it would pass or fail on
Curiousand40@reddit
Huh. Ok.
random_agency@reddit
Think of the horses. You got extra horses from an unrestricted exhaust.
Dont kill the horses
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Nooo! i love horses ....
overindulgent@reddit
Just drive itā¦ Without knowing the year/make/model we canāt really help you.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
Ok fed, wanna know my ssn too? /S
Curiousand40@reddit
You used the word āyāallā
And youāre worried about a cat delete?
Interesting.
Iām with everyone else. Itās your baby now. No recourse. It passed inspection. Let it rock. Or put in a cat. Up to you.
I prefer my cars to not have animals in them. But you want cats? Adopt one š. This was me being stupid and goofy ā¦ for all of you who canāt read tone.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
I, for one, appreciate your tone.
Okay, truth is I'm a cat person who moved from y'all country to the rigid frigid north. I bought the car from y'all country through.
My only concern about the catalytic being mia is finding an exhaust shop to fix the Frankensteining before the whole system goes to rust. Without them rejecting the whole car for the cat. I suppose worst that could happen is they make me put one in.
63crabby@reddit
Not sure about the reference to āyāall,ā relevance?
Curiousand40@reddit
ā¦. Ummm ok.
Are you from the south?
I am. We say yāall. And we donāt worry about emissions. Hell, in some places, burning your trash is still the ONLY method of trash removal. You burn what you can. You recycle the metal.
63crabby@reddit
Got it. My mistake, I thought you were disparaging yāall (Iām a proud Georgian, and not the Euro type)
Curiousand40@reddit
Oh no. Not at all. Iām southern as the day is long, and my neck gets redder as the summer wears on.
63crabby@reddit
Bless our hearts!
Curiousand40@reddit
š
God love ya. Tell your momma and them we said hey.
š
CMDR-LT-ATLAS@reddit
The previous owner may not have known. You can't blame the previous owner.
Embarrassed_Mood8630@reddit (OP)
That's what I'm thinking. He's a buddy and a car enthusiast, but he did swap the turbo, which is close proximity to the missing cat.
Whitehoneybun666@reddit
It passed inspection twice itās no big deal just leave it be and drive the car
UncleSlayton77@reddit
If it passed inspection it passed inspection. I wouldn't worry about it unless you're getting a Check Engine light from not having it. Then just order a cheap high-flow cat from Summit Racing or similar and have an exhaust shop put it in for you.
updatelee@reddit
Troll post. First thing I do when I get a vehicle is delete it. And yes itās illegal. And no this isnāt a burner account.
Wolf_Ape@reddit
Some cars have multiple cats, or the mechanic may have mistaken an aftermarket āhigh flow catā for a ātest pipeā and that is a compliant alternative.
Tony-cums@reddit
Your car now. Fix it if you want.
bobbymclown@reddit
Send it.
TexMoto666@reddit
Put a cat in it or don't. I have several de-catted vehicles and I don't worry about it at all. If it passes inspection just play dumb.
kerberos824@reddit
If it passes inspection, who cares?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
what's the car?