Current largest aircraft in the world, over 400ft long
Posted by ne0tas@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 187 comments
found these photos on Facebook, it looks absolutely massive
Walkebut4@reddit
And the Hindenburg was twice as long as this
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
holy shit really??? i had no idea the Hindenburg was THAT big!
i think we should just ban all fossil fuels and switch to an airship world. nice and slow and cleanđ„°
Go_Loud762@reddit
And how are you going to power these magical airships of your dreams?
chippymediaYT@reddit
Isn't pathfinder 1, the airship in the images, electric?
Go_Loud762@reddit
The motors are electric, but I think it uses diesel generators to create the electricity.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
You jest, but fossil fuels actually are pretty terrible as airship fuels go. Theyâre heavy, the engines theyâre burned in arenât very efficient, and you need to compensate for the lost weight as they burn.
Gaseous fuels, solar power, nuclear power, and liquid hydrogen are all far lighter and more efficient fuels for an airship. Coincidentally, theyâre also quite clean, but thatâs secondary to the immense weight savings of not having to carry around tens or hundreds of tons of heavy liquid fuel and several tons of ballast water recovery equipment.
i-Hermit@reddit
Sorry, nuclear power? In an aircraft that can easily crash?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
A nuclear reactor could do worse than being surrounded by what is essentially a giant safety airbag combined with a crumple zone.
Counterintuitively, up until recently, nuclear was actually the lightest means of large airship propulsion:
Straight6er@reddit
Either this is an oddly relevant username or we've just stumbled onto your special interest.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
I replied to that comment in three minutes with a suspiciously relevant screenshot of obscure, analog technical research taken from a scientific paper from decades ago, you can draw your own conclusions from that.
Coomb@reddit
So what paper is that?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
It is the appendices section (which itself comprises hundreds of pages) of Phase 1, Volume IV of the Feasibility Study of Modern Airships, which was a titanic study (more like a series of studies) jointly prepared by Goodyear Aerospace and Boeing for the NASA Ames research center and the Department of Commerce.
Straight6er@reddit
I had my suspension, the screenshot confirmed it.
I've learned a lot about airships reading your comments, so thanks!
No-Brilliant9659@reddit
If you had suspensions, then bridges might be your thing
Big_Cryptographer_16@reddit
đđđđđ
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Youâre welcome! Iâd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
smallshinyant@reddit
My love of the idea of a world filled with airships started with a Stephen Baxters long earth book. Then Kim Stanley Robinson Ministry for the future. Now I think any world without airships is not going to be a good one.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Though certain works of fiction incorporate airships as a sort of technological analogue to airplanes, replacing or displacing them, theyâre actually much better understood as being the flying equivalent of trains. Theyâre actually very similar to trains in terms of speed and efficiency, and thus are more orthogonal to airplanes than really directly competitive with them. Theyâre much better employed as an alternative to helicopters and ferries, not commercial airliners, or to substitute for trains in places where trains have difficulty.
Smaller, earlier airships like the Zeppelins Bodensee and Nordstern were used to turn a 24-hour train ride into a 4-6 hour flight, for example. But the accommodations were practically identical to the train cars of the time:
Later, larger airships took cues from ocean linersâlounges, promenades, balconies, double grand staircases, etc.âbut they never quite managed to capture the first class ocean liner experience, landing about halfway between trains and ocean liners in terms of space per passenger and accommodations.
NoTap8889@reddit
Why can't they just.. make the cabin bigger to accommodate more people? Probably a very silly question but surely there's some extra room under the big balloon and (I do believe I saw another airship do this, but I am unsure whether it was actually built) put a few rooms inside the balloon itself?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
What an excellent question. The answer is, they do! Hereâs a blueprint of the cross-section of the airship R100, a ship which had only 3% of its habitable space represented by its external gondola, the rest in three internal decks above it:
An airship has basically an arbitrary amount of internal space. The airship pictured above has a keel corridor thatâs much larger than the external gondola, but itâs also just a 2/3 scale prototype.
The actual production version will have a similar payload capacity to a 737 or a C-130, but have a two-deck-tall passenger cabin thatâs about 150 feet by 40 feet, or about two A380sâ worth of space.
Even on ancient airships with woefully primitive materials that are a lot heavier than modern composites and alloys, their interiorsâfully furnished with private cabins, fittings, amenities, and so onâonly weighed about one ton for every 400-630 square feet for the largest, most luxurious airships. In other words, buying more internal space is very cheap in terms of weight budget.
However, keeping most of that space internal is very important, because otherwise it would interfere too much with the shipâs aerodynamics. Hence the comparatively tiny external gondolas.
smallshinyant@reddit
I think that is why i like the idea of them from these books specifically, they were not replacements to planes but because they are have a role that planes cannot match. But i am loving all your comments and information. I still hold hope that there will be industries that will find these compelling enough to use.
iamkeerock@reddit
Whatever became of the Aeros Dragon Dream program? Were they able to prove their auto ballast system was feasible/workable? Something about recompressing helium into storage tanks during offloading of people/cargo to become less buoyant? Making remote unprepared destinations feasible if I remember correctly. Thoughts?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Oh, there was a lot of drama regarding that which came out in court filings. Basically, the old hangar the Dragon Dream test rig was being kept in was in a deteriorating state and collapsed on top of the rig, destroying it. The Navy ended up having to pay damages, but not anywhere near what Aeros was seeking, because Aeros was being kind of sneaky and trying to misrepresent what âDragon Dreamâ actually was.
I call it a ârigâ because, as it turns out, thatâs all it really wasâa test rig that was gussied up to look like a flyable subscale prototype, but actually wasnât. It was more like a hardware store mockup that was capable of floating.
The thing was basically built on an absolutely shoestring budget because the main goal they had was to attract investment, but the limited DARPA contract they had really only called for them to demonstrate the concept of submarine-like buoyancy control. Not make a whole-ass prototype vehicle.
To Aerosâ credit, they did demonstrate functional buoyancy control. However, they also inadvertently proved why it wasnât really worth it.
The COSH (Control Of Static Heaviness) system did vary the airshipâs buoyancy, by +/- 11% or so. The 36,000 pound test rig was mostly just the COSH system. However, decades earlier, it had already been successfully established that engine waste heat or tiny heating elements or propane heaters could be used to heat up the helium in a rigid airship and provide up to +/- 30% changes in lift without major structural or design changes or weight outlays, so obviously thatâs vastly superior to a compression-based system that takes up a huge portion of the shipâs structural weight and canât even vary buoyancy by all that much.
In fact, temperature-based buoyancy control had already been used in small manned test aircraft to vary buoyancy by about the same amount in absolute terms as the Dragon Dream managed to do with a test rig about ten times heavier.
Needless to say, DARPA didnât pursue the COSH program further. Aeros still exists, and is lately trying to pivot to drone delivery platforms, but the fact that they did all that research and development towards a fundamentally flawed concept doesnât really recommend them as the people to push airships back into the limelight.
iamkeerock@reddit
Wow, a lot going on there! So, I just Googled them, and either they havenât bothered to update their website for quite a while, or they somehow still believe in their âairshipâ Aeroscraft?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
To be clear, just because one of the Aeroscraftâs subsystems for buoyancy management is less practical than an alternative doesnât mean the design itself is unworkable. I am much more skeptical of Aerosâ ability to execute on said concept well than I am of the concept itself. Much in the same way that I trust submarines are sound in theory, but not ones built by Stockton Rush.
The Aeroscraft is, after all, very similar to the Boeing Helipsoid design, which had most favorable performance characteristics in parametric analysis:
dOobersNapz@reddit
I have a question I could ask google, but I'd rather ask you :D
Have their been any real attempts in recent history for a commercial airship service? And if not, why not? I'm surprised a yacht of the air has been more popular. Everything from sightseeing to just a more relaxed form of travel comparable to that of a train...
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Well, aside from Zeppelin running helicopter-like sightseeing flights for the last 30 years or so, not really. They did a pilot program for a 10-city European metropolis circular route, but despite the programâs success, they never attracted enough money to build the larger ship they wanted to use for the route. The NTs they have today carry only 12-14 people.
The problem, as ever, is money. Airships save a lot of fuel, but theyâre also slower, and have bizarre scaling effects, which translates to unconventional operating considerations. In short, though, you need an airship at least with the capacity for 100 passengers or 10 tons of cargo to match or beat the operating economics of competing regional airliners, and developing an airship of that size is incredibly difficult and lengthy when youâre starting from scratch.
Not just for a new design from scratch, but the whole industry and everything associated with it.
Thatâs why itâs only really been recently that people are taking a serious stab at it, as shown by the ship above.
Another important factor is enabling technologiesâcomposites for weight savings and fuel cells for efficiency and easing buoyancy compensation. They do for airships what lithium batteries did to revive the electric car. Fuel cells are still on the cutting edge for aviation, though. Once theyâre certified, they would increase airshipsâ performance enormously, so various companies have basically been waiting for those kinds of powertrains to become available.
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
You're now my favorite new redditor of the year, or even the last 5 years!
I love the fact that you know so much about the Mighty Zeppelin!
I oftentimes daydream and wonder about a world where we promoted airships as either a supplemental, or even better, the main form of travel!
If we as a human species are serious about curbing our environmental impact on this glorious garden planet we live on, airships would be THE premier mode of transport!
dOobersNapz@reddit
Appreciate the response!
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Youâre welcome! Iâll also note that Air Nostrum has an order for 20 airships to serve as âfast ferriesâ for the Mediterranean market, but that deal is more of a MOU than a firm order, so it should be taken with a heaping spoonful of salt.
What the industry needs is commitment of firm orders with money up front to fund development and certification, not just reservations for ships that havenât been funded yet.
julex@reddit
Big Zeppelin narrative manager/s
Walbabyesser@reddit
And the shielding??
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Included in the installed weight. Small nuclear reactors arenât really a mysteryâeven smaller ones have been fitted to research submarines back in the day.
Obviously we can do better with modern fuel cell propulsion systems, but nuclear wasnât actually unviable from a purely weight perspective. Totally toxic from a PR perspective, though.
No-Marsupial-1753@reddit
How would electric do? We have flexible solar cells, could we cover the upper surfaces in them to charge batteries/power motors? Even if itâs not enough to power the batteries fully the batteries could be charged from shore power at docks.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Some math for you:
Assuming the same parameters (1,000 ton airship with 5,000 nautical mile range at 85 knots TAS, requiring 14,000 horsepower) that would require about 60 hoursâ worth of energy, or about 650,000 kWh. Because a fuel cell is about 50% efficient, that means 1,300,000 kWh worth of liquid hydrogen fuel, or 86,000 pounds of it, plus an additional mass of 30% due to the heavier insulated fuel tanks and refrigeration liquid hydrogen requires compared to diesel and kerosene tanks, which currently have about a 70% mass fraction of LH2. So, 112,000 pounds for fuel and special fuel tanks all told.
Compared to the rest, the fuel cells would conservatively weigh about as much as the diesel engines (~30,000 pounds, motors included), but instead of having a combined fuel plus engine weight of 317,000 pounds for diesel, itâd be a mere 142,000 pounds for fuel cells. Thatâs also quite favorable compared to nuclear power at 252,000 pounds as well.
An extra 87.5 tons of payload is nothing to sneeze at, for sure.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Very well, actually. Hence why, in the modern ship pictured above, they use an electric powertrain and intend to fit the ship with solar panels eventually (itâs still in testing).
PolypeptideCuddling@reddit
Question. In the 2nd column under Weights (lbs) it states " Uninstalled Engine for 1400 HP". Is this a typo? Should it be 14000? Or is it showing like weight per 1400 HP?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Good eye! That is, indeed, a typo. Itâs supposed to be 14,000 horsepower, as shown elsewhere by the â4x 3,500 horsepower enginesâ and the actual body of the study.
I canât imagine trying to fix that after formatting everything with a typewriter, though, so I donât blame them for not fixing that.
HubertTheFriar@reddit
Nuclear turboprops are purely theoretical, aren't they?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Pretty much. The one ânuclearâ plane that flew didnât actually use its reactor to power the engines in flight, as far as I know, and it was mostly just doing testing on the various safety systems, and the results werenât favorableâat least, for a system small enough to fit in a plane. It never really got far enough, though as I understand itâs pretty straightforward in concept.
For an airship, though, the power requirements are far smaller. 14,000 horsepower for a 1,000-ton airship to maintain a 70 knot speed in a 15 knot headwind isnât bad at all. The abundance of space and lifting capacity would also mean much greater capability for nuclear shielding for the crew as well as various safety measures.
Ultimately, though, such a thing is unnecessary now that we have fuel cells and/or solar panels able to power airships over very long distances or for a very long time without refueling. The ship pictured above is intended to test out solar panels at some point, in fact, and is awaiting fuel cells to replace its current diesel backup generators to keep its batteries charged.
HubertTheFriar@reddit
Got it. Thanks for the in-depth answer!
wdapp89@reddit
Man there are dozens maybe hundreds of isolated communities in Canada that are only accessible by air or ice roads in winter, all people and everything cargo spring to fall is flown in. The cost is insane! $3500 to fly one person 600km. Airships would be awesome I think here, one of the easiest places in the world to justify them with there being no roads. There was a professor at the university of Manitoba at some point doing research a while ago, not sure where itâs at now. Even if it was only cargo and people flew it would be a great start.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Dr. Prentice, professor of logistics, is still beating on that drum, yes indeed.
Airships would indeed be a fantastic boon to Canadaâs isolated North, both for the affordability of communities there and for opening up their wealth of resources. Mining roads cost hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars to build, and when that cost is included in the cost of trucking logistics, airships are actually cheaper past a certain point.
The trick, as Dr. Prentice notes, is right-sizing the ship, the route, and the whole logistics network so that you donât run into overcapacity issues and donât have too many expenses from operating smaller, less efficient airships either. He promotes two size classes, one with 30 tons of payload capacity and one with 100 tons of payload capacity.
Funnyguy69747@reddit
Bro I'm a big fan of airships too and I swear everytime I look at post involving airships you're always here. đ Been seeing you for years
4GIFs@reddit
Yeah that's Airship Guy. His thing is Airships.
donkeykink420@reddit
is that a euphemism?
LegitimateSubject226@reddit
I wouldnât say nuclear power is light as a result of the necessary shielding - unless you fancy be mutated
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Even with shielding, itâs actually a lot lighter than turboprops and piston enginesâassuming a quite large, long-range airship.
ZappaLlamaGamma@reddit
Without diving into the technical aspects, I bet that people would rather have it use hydrogen for lift and include a smoking lounge than have it nuclear powered.
Solar with the safer lithium batteries (LiFePO4 or whatever the latest is) connected to electric motors that I guess could act as generators too if that was deemed to be worthwhile (not my wheelhouse) combined with compressed hydrogen powered engines would be probably the best balance between clean, efficient, range, and cost if I were to guess.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Oh God, yes, itâs absolute PR nightmare fuel, which is why I suspect the whole âAtoms for Peaceâ airship concept never got off the drawing board.
Airships tend to apply reverse thrust to decelerate when theyâre about to land, motors serving as generators wouldnât really do much of anything even though itâs technically possible for them to serve double-duty. With wheels on a road, regenerative braking is useful, but an airship hardly ever âbrakesâ at all.
Hydrogen fuel is indeed the lightest, even lighter than nuclear when shielding is considered, but not compressed hydrogen. Compressed hydrogen fuel tanks have an awful fuel mass fraction often less than 10%. Liquid hydrogenâs where itâs at, those tanks have about 70% mass fraction nowadays and do even better with scale, unlike a pressure vessel.
Scaling up a pressure vessel doesnât make it any lighter, since it needs additional strength at the same rate. Insulation for liquid hydrogen, by contrast, benefits from the square-cube law.
talzer@reddit
Not saying youâre wrong overall, but this one does run on diesel generators
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
It does have diesel backup generators, as I mention myself elsewhere in the thread, but theyâre functioning as a stand-in during testing. Theyâre to be replaced by fuel cells and solar panels once those new subsystems are ready.
Iâm not sure theyâve even needed to be turned on yet, it hasnât flown for more than a few hours at a time, and usually at fairly moderate speeds.
Dropssshot@reddit
After watching the original Hunter x Hunter and Indiana Jones 3, I wish Zeppelins still existed. May be slow, but traveling in such comfort would be so cool. Like a little hotel with a restaurant in the sky.
domiciledhere@reddit
Every fly first class? I'm pretty sure these dirigibles were triple the cost.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Not really. Back in the day a ticket on the Hindenburg would run you $400, or about $9,000 today. Thatâs right in the range of modern transatlantic first class on one of the fancier airlines.
Difference is that you get much less space on a plane (~30 ft2 per passenger on average for the first class cabin vs. 81-104 ft2 per passenger depending on whether youâre flying on the post-refit or pre-refit ship), but youâre flying for one day vs. 2-3 days.
Walbabyesser@reddit
ânuclear powerâ -Youâre serious?!?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
It wouldnât really be necessary anymore, but yes, counterintuitive as it may seem, nuclear power was the lightest potential propulsion method for airships for a long time.
domiciledhere@reddit
Don't batteries weigh much more than petrol? I would think the pressurized systems for hydrogen would alone make it less energy efficient than a turbine. Ballast can be managed but permanently carrying tons of batteries on a craft that is fighting gravity seems less than ideal.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Yes, for an equal energy content, they are about 50-70 times worse than petrol, which is only somewhat mitigated by their much higher efficiency, which is why batteries alone wouldnât be suitable to replace fossil fuels, but rather batteries incorporated into a larger energy system with solar panels and/or fuel cells. Think of them as more like a buffer, rather than the main source of energy.
Compressed hydrogen is indeed terrible, with usually less than 10% hydrogen mass fractions for hydrogen tanks. Liquid hydrogen, however, has tanks that are about 70% LH2 by mass, because theyâre not under pressure, just insulation. This gives it effectively twice the gravimetric energy density of kerosene (it would be three times, but for the heavier fuel tanks). Moreover, fuel cells use about 1/3 the energy of turboprops for a given thrust output because of their higher efficiency, so the fuel load for LH2 is about 1/6 compared to a kerosene-burning turboprop system.
Fixed weight is actually highly desirable for airships compared to variable weight they have to manage buoyancy for, so long as the fixed weight in question isnât too extreme. A recent study found that 7 tons of solar panels and a 10-ton battery could stand in for 67 tonsâ worth of fuel and oil on a Hindenburg-sized airship, for example. Thatâs a lot of weight youâre not just saving, but weight that isnât changing at all, requiring no gas venting or fiddly trim adjustments.
Pale_Character5944@reddit
I swear there was a hydrogen incident with an airship. Canât quite remember thoughâŠ
Walbabyesser@reddit
As in the lifting bags, not as engine fuel đ
Coomb@reddit
Tell me more about how you're going to put a nuclear reactor on an airship.
Also tell me more about the mass energy density of these notional alternatives. Because I was pretty sure that the mass energy density of hydrocarbon fuel was way up there and much better than, say, any battery that has ever existed, which is what you must be talking about when you're talking about nuclear power.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
If you follow the thread, you can see me discuss these things further and provide numbers for nuclear reactors, fuel cells, and other propulsion methods.
Youâre correct that batteries on their own are not suitable, but in combination with solar panels or fuel cells, when incorporated into an electric drivetrain they do in fact effectively weigh less than fossil fuels. For instance, a solar/battery system suitable for replacing the diesel engines on a Hindenburg-sized airship was recently found by a study by Pflaum et. al to require a 10-ton battery and 7 tons of solar panels using off-the-shelf components; these would effectively replace 67 tonsâ worth of diesel and oil.
ttystikk@reddit
The problem is that they're so big they don't do well in bad weather.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
As I mentioned elsewhere, airships have already developed ways of dealing with bad weather such that they can match or exceed the weather operating envelope of airplanes and helicopters, and indeed already did so during the Cold War.
A lot of early 20th century airshipsâ weather issues from decades prior to that werenât even really inherent problems with airships, it was usually stuff like â3 of the 4 engines failed at the same timeâ or âthe ship crashed into the sea/mountains because it literally couldnât see where it was going in the bad visibility of a stormâ or âthe ship broke apart because the engineers had no idea what they were building, so they only designed the ship with 45% of the strength necessary to resist bending forcesâ. All of those were real accidents, by the way.
By the time World War II rolled around and radar got invented, most of those things were no longer relevant. It really bears repeating that early aviation was extraordinarily primitive and dangerous, but even then, airships were safer than airplanes of the same time period.
So saying that airships donât do well in rough weather is a bit like saying that we canât make buildings taller than 12 stories just because the Sampoong Department Store and Surfside Condo Building both collapsed under their own weight. Engineering matters, quite a lot.
fireinthesky7@reddit
I understood that R-101 reference :)
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Not quite! That particular accident was caused by even worse issues with manufacturing and design defects. The outer cover was rotted to about 1/10 the rated strength, and that was just one of like seventeen different potentially fatal problems with it. Flying that ship was like playing Russian roulette with a full cylinder.
The crashes Iâm referencing are LZ-54, the Akron, the SSSR-V6 OSOAVIAKhIM, and the Shenandoah, respectively.
ttystikk@reddit
Yes, engineering matters and nothing you've said has betrayed any expertise in actual engineering. The forces involved are truly enormous and the ability of a dechero or microburst to take hold of an airship and treat it apart simply cannot be denied. There's no outrunning such weather either, because airships simply can't go fast.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
You donât have to take it from me, I can show you the relevant info and equations on the forces involved if youâre interested. Theyâre well within an airshipâs capabilities.
Hence why airships, like airplanes, have to be engineered with certain safety margins in mind. The ship shown above, for example, has a safety factor of 1.8âwhich is on the conservative side, usually in aviation an ultimate safety factor of 1.5 is typical.
And how do you think airships handled such things without being torn apart back in the â30s? Itâs not like they werenât exposed to rough weather regularly, particularly given the extremely rudimentary state of meteorology at the time. Whole gales, typhoons, hurricanesâŠ
The method Zeppelin used was to fly very low, such that any strong vertical wind forces necessarily got translated to horizontal wind forces. They also, geography permitting, tended to skirt around the worst parts of oncoming storms, working with the gyre wherever possible.
Microbursts are typically less than 2.5 miles in diameter and last very briefly. A dechero moves along at about 50-60 knots. With a typical cruising speed for an airship being 70 knots over long distances, theyâre not so helpless as you might think to avoid or circumvent weather when given the advanced warning of radar and satellite systems. In the 1930s they just went through the lightest areas of the storms they could see, but the degree to which a modern airship is forewarned of any weather is incomparable.
bouncypete@reddit
The 'problem' with hydrogen is that it doesn't exist naturally anywhere on earth. And there's really no cheap way to make it.
Sure you can make it from green energy but you have to put a significant amount of energy into it, for what you get out of it.
I.E. you put a lot of kWs into it just to get a kW of energy. Which will always make it far more expensive to use hydrogen than it is to use a battery and an electric motor.
As a further example, I believe you're looking at $30 - $36 per kg to fill a hydrogen car in California.
Therefore to fill up your Toyota Mirai it's roughly $150 - $200 which will take you just over 300 miles.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Hydrogen is indeed terrible at for road vehicles and as an energy storage medium. With batteries, you get almost the same amount of energy out as you put in, unlike hydrogen. Itâs quite useful for aircraft, though.
Shunting renewable electricity towards electrolysis for airplanes, ships, and airships to use in the future could be a good use of overcapacity. Inevitably, with solar getting so cheap, there are going to be issues of too much power being generated sometimes due to capacities being planned to avoid the issues of too little power being generated, and itâs for the best that excess electricity doesnât go to waste once the grid energy storage capacity is full.
bouncypete@reddit
There is a university near me that is researching hydrogen for aviation and they also have a lab where they develop biofuels. Long story short. Hydrogen isn't happening soon.
As an aside, Carrington is about 12 miles away from Cranfield where the R101, Skyship and Airlander were built.
Link
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Aviation is indeed an extremely conservative technological environment. Weâre still flying around airplanes that were designed all the way back in the â30s, so obviously biofuels would be a more immediately useful technology in the short to medium term, since they can work with the incredibly entrenched and unbelievably expensive infrastructure we already have.
Long-term, however, hydrogen takes it, I believe. Itâs not ready for commercial aviation now, itâs simply not scaled enough for anything larger than a regional airliner and all but requires a bespoke design, but it is ready enough for small planes and airships to make use ofâŠ
âŠLargely because a small plane and a large airship can use the same exact powerplant, the airship just uses more of them. Even the very first ZA600 fuel cells to get certified and hit the market would be able to get a 500-ton airship up to 100 knots, and drastically increase its payload while doing so. âJust use more of themâ is not really viable for a medium- to large-sized airliner, though.
bouncypete@reddit
It's not using the hydrogen, or building the aircraft that's the problem. It's creating hydrogen in the first place.
Whilst there are other forms of clean energy, of simplicity, I'll refer to wind turbines.
You can't create an economic business if you can't predict the amount of hydrogen you create and can sell. Therefore, you can't reliably 'just' use surplus energy from the grid.
The electrical distribution grid has to be balanced all the time, so the grid won't allow you to build a turbine to feed into the grid if that grid in that area is already adequately supplied. Turbines are already sited at locations where the wind is relatively predictable. In the massive off-shore wind farms those turbines are not just randomly placed, they are placed in such a way that it reduces turbulence across the neighboring turbines.
Ultimately, anyone building a hydrogen plant is going to have to generate their own energy and they'll have to absorb the days where there isn't any wind, or there isn't any sunlight. As there just aren't enough hours in the year where there is surplus energy in the existing electricity grid to be able to tap into and create a reliable source of hydrogen to supply at the volumes aviation would consume.
Potential-Cat1028@reddit
đđ
misty-paw@reddit
With bicycle power. /s
PankourLaut@reddit
Imagine you had solar-panel like receptors at the bottom of the airship and plenty of ground based directed laser turrets along it's fixed route such that at least one turret is within reach of the airship at any one time.
PankourLaut@reddit
Imagine you had solar-panel like receptors at the bottom of the airship and lots of ground based directed laser connected along it's route.
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
with the power of friendship! (and helium...đ )
SuperSecretBull@reddit
Unfortunately helium is also in short supply at the moment
Disastrous_Life_3612@reddit
That's not true. A massive heluim deposit was discovered in Minnesota in 2024.Â
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
i just recently had a big birthday party hosted at my place... there's a TON of extra helium in all those balloons if you want someđ€Ł
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Itâll be a while before they can make up for Qatar, thoughâŠ
MessMaximum5493@reddit
If they're so big there should be plenty of space for solar panels
ttystikk@reddit
They can't handle bad weather.
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
this is probably the single biggest problem with airships outside of the whole "explosive gas" thing eh?
I never thought about the weather, but yeah that makes total sense. These big ol behemoths are probably terrible in anything other than clear blue skies
ttystikk@reddit
Think about a 400 foot long marshmallow in a dechero.
PaddyMayonaise@reddit
It was huge. Bigger than the U.S. Capitol building. About as large as the Titanic
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
that is utterly spectacular!
those early decades of flight really were the true pioneering golden age!
I still can't wrap my mind around how ENORMOUS this legendary character was!
Budget-Stomach-5227@reddit
It was a terrible idea then. It's a terrible idea now
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
It was only a terrible idea then because of a combustible lifting medium. The original design called for the use of helium, which would have been dramatically safer. The shortage and subsequent expense of helium at the time necessitated the use of the highly flammable hydrogen that caused the Hindenburgâs demise. The design was not the problem in the era before transatlantic fixed wing aircraft. The implementation of the Hindenburgâs design was the problem.
MosYEETo@reddit
This. The Hindenburg wouldâve been fine had it been helium
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
It wouldâve been fine unless it encountered foul weather. That was always the fatal flaw of airships.
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
Or was it?
This comment seems to disprove that commonly held notion
https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/ok7cLsoluV
Budget-Stomach-5227@reddit
Ha. Or even just a stiff breeze
Drew314@reddit
All* zeppelins, even the helium ones, shared a fatal flaw of being too big and not having enough power. Most zeppelins were destroyed by weather, including the helium-filled American flying aircraft carriers Akron and Macon.
The only successful one was the Graf Zeppelin, which managed to survive round-the-world voyages through extremely skilled piloting and luck, retiring before it crashed.
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
Too big for what? They were as big as they were because they had to be, to have the volume needed for enough lifting gas to provide a useful payload.
Not enough power? Not really. What would more power be used for? If to go faster? That would require a stronger framework, and more fuel, which in turn would make the ship heavier, requiring more lifting gas for the desired payload, and so on.
Besides the Graf Zeppelin, the most successful ship was the USS Los Angeles (built as LZ 126 and turned over to the US Navy as reparations for WW1). She logged 4,398 hours of flight without any serious mishap, and was retired in 1932.
The Navy learned a lot from Los Angeles, but still, both Akron and Macon were misused and mishandled by the Navy brass. Pro tip: don't fly a Zeppelin into a squall, especially with unrepaired damage to a fin. One should also remember the brilliantly successful Navy blimp program, before, during and after WWII.
It's also worth remembering that Hindenburg wasn't exactly a failure, having completed a successful first season with 17 round trips across the Atlantic. She was in the middle of the 2nd season when the accident occured. Despite the spectacular nature of the accident, nearly two thirds of those aboard survived: 62 out of 97.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
To be fair, my namesake, the Graf Zeppelin, was relegated to the Germany-Brazil route because with a cruising speed of 60 knots, she was considered too slow for scheduled passenger service in the tempestuous North Atlantic, which Zeppelin considered a 70 knot cruising speed to be the bare minimum (achieved by the Hindenburg, which was designed for that route and to use helium). Ultimately they wanted a cruising speed of 80 knots, engines permitting, to properly balance commercially useful speed with fuel economy.
Later NASA parametric computer analysis has found that, although much higher speeds are preferable for airships over 300-2,000 nautical mile ranges, anything over 5,000 nautical miles does indeed have an optimal cruising speed of 70-85 knots depending on the design, so Zeppelin was right on the money.
It wasnât just damaged, eitherâan engineering error caused by a last-minute Navy design requirement change reduced the engineering safety factor from 2 to 0.8 (i.e. the fin would fail under normal operating conditions).
Inexcusably, this was known long before the fin gave way causing the ship to crash, but the Navy dragged its feet on installing the reinforcements and conducting repairs for months. Imagine how much hot water that whole fiasco would land them in with todayâs regulations.
The first commercial flight of that season, following the shipâs refit, but yes.
Despite the shipâs promising early performance, Iâd argue the Hindenburg was indeed a failure in the sense it was not fully converted to hydrogen use after being designed to use heliumâas evidenced by the much more thorough conversion her sister ship, the Graf Zeppelin II, underwent in order to prevent the same static-driven freak accident that destroyed the ship. Much more attention was given to making the hull properly conductive to electricity under all moisture conditions, with measures like graphite being added to the ramie netting.
Of course, had the Hindenburg used helium as intended, that disaster would never have happened. It would have shortly been scrapped during World War II like her sister ships anyway, but at least it wouldnât have gone up in flames.
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
utterly fascinating. thank you for sharing these little known details to the gawking public like međ€Ł
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
My pleasure. The lessons of history are useless unless they get shared around.
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
Thanks for the added details!
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Youâre welcome!
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
Yeah, I try sometimes to remember all this stuff off the top of my head. I hope I at least get the gist of it right.
Drew314@reddit
To stay away from the squalls, thunderstorms, sudden gusts, etc. that destroyed so many zeppelins.
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
How do you stay away from a sudden gust? Modern jet airliners can't stay away from sudden gusts.
I don't think you understand how any of this works.
Lithorex@reddit
Outside of the prototype phases, the Hindenburg was the only hull loss resulting in the loss of life of the civilian German airship program.
Budget-Stomach-5227@reddit
They only had 2 ships lol
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
Ten, including the Graf Zeppelin.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
They had two ships at the time the Hindenburg went down in 1937, but theyâd been operating since 1910 with a bunch of other airships as well. All the more impressive, really, since the average airplane had a fatal accident every 150 flight hours or so at the time.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Too big, no. The problem behind several airship accidents was more with woefully inadequate engineering, inexperienced crews, and lacking materials than sheer size; no airship has yet been built that even approaches diminishing returns in structural efficiency for aluminum (which occurs at a gross weight of ~500 tons, about twice that of the Hindenburg), much less titanium or carbon fiber composites.
That said, they absolutely were underpowered in the 1930s. Optimal cruising speeds can be anywhere between 130-200 knots over short distances, but no airship has yet been built that has exceeded 82, again due to engines.
Thatâs not actually true. Of the over one hundred Zeppelins and other large rigid airships built, the vast majority were not lost to weather.
âŠWouldnât all aircraft âretire before they crashed,â then? Besides which, the Graf Zeppelin was hardly the only successful Zeppelin. What of the various DELAG ships, the Bodensee, the Nordstern, the Los Angeles?
EverythingsComputer2@reddit
Oh, the Hoomanity
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Not exactly. As seems more important these days, airships are anywhere between 400-900% more fuel efficient than an airplane of similar gross weight.
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
Thatâs true, but airships are also dramatically more vulnerable to weather than a conventional airliner.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
In the sense that their forward speed is proportionally more affected by headwinds than an airliner due to their lower speeds and they are incapable of ascending above some weather systems, yes.
That said, airshipsâeven back in the 1920sâhad their own ways of dealing with weather, which is all the more impressive because they were pretty much completely flying blind. They navigated by dead reckoning, without access to modern meteorological advances or weather radars.
And if Zeppelin was capable of routinely flying through and around storms that rate anywhere between force 9 and force 11 on the Beaufort scale in the technological Dark Ages of the 1920s, and in some memorable instances surviving force 12, surely today they are far better equipped to deal with inclement weather and maintain reliable service, as other airships did during World War II and the Cold War.
In fact, airships were the most reliable air units of any kind at the time. They were able to fly reliably even in weather that grounded all other aircraft.
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
I would have to look up instances of Zeppelin surviving force 11 or 12 winds. Iâm not trying to underrate Zeppelinâs accomplishments, but given the altitude ceilings of airships, the ability to avoid or evade weather rather than simply fly through it is key to the distinction between a conventional fixed wing aircraft and an airship of any type even if it were a clean sheet design created tomorrow. Just as gliders exhibit greater aerodynamic efficiency than an airliner, an airliner will be better able to navigate within and around weather. Thatâs siomy a function of their airframe types, not a reflection of their design rigor.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
The Graf Zeppelin, on one of her first North Atlantic flights, encountered hurricane-force winds that, unbeknownst to the blinded ship at the time, blew it so far off course they ended up over Newfoundland when they expected to be over the Atlantic Ocean.
On her circumnavigation flight, she also encountered a typhoon that the ship managed to surf along to harvest a huge tailwind to arrive at San Francisco ahead of schedule. Basically, one of the very few things they were able to predict weather-wise was the direction a large tropical storm will spin in depending on which hemisphere itâs found in, so they used that to their advantage to make up for the time spent going around it.
The Hindenburg had a far shorter career, but she ran into some nasty storms as well, including some truly horrendous 50-foot seas at one point, and encountered a gale in July 1936 that brought her ground speed up to 155 knots.
Airships also have other advantages that help to make up for their inability to match planesâ speed and altitude. The ability to hover and weathervane into the wind without fear of stalling was immensely useful to Navy blimps that operated in blizzards and thunderstorms, and likewise having the immense flight endurance and range to divert or circumvent the harshest conditions, where a plane or helicopter would be unable to wait that long before being forced to land. Thatâs why they were able to outperform airplanes during the Cold War in inclement weather availability rates (they averaged 88% availability during severe winter storms).
elliotcook10@reddit
made for a hell of an album cover
EverythingsComputer2@reddit
Those were Good Times
ticianlicious@reddit
You know I've had my share.
1KgEquals2Point2Lbs@reddit
Fuck that, I want air ships from the Final Fantasy universe. Keep building and improving them!Â
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
Smarter people than you disagree.
Ok_Mathematician6075@reddit
That's what she said.
NoDoze-@reddit
Yea, crazy to think about that, and how it all burned in seconds.
NoDoze-@reddit
Impressive! I wonder how it sounds. I always loved the sound of the blimp overhead, simple propulsion thats not loud at all. This looks like the SF south bay?
Random_Curly_Fry@reddit
Yep! Saw it circling the Bay last week. I think they were doing publicity videos because a helicopter was following it around.
NoDoze-@reddit
That's cool! Yea, I've seen many blimps out of moffit field, I recognized the landscape.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Itâs electric, and has 12 motors, so it sounds like a dozen very distant electric weedwhackers practicing for a choir. Itâs not really loud at all, though.
NoDoze-@reddit
That's awesome! Yup, goes along with what I've seen in the past, but BIG time scaled up! LOL
Walbabyesser@reddit
âPathfinder 1 is a modern rigid airship, designed by LTA Research, with assistance by Luftschiffbau Zeppelin.â - The last part, I knew it already! đ
AK_Sole@reddit
Banana boat for scale?
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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spartanantler@reddit
1st is your mom
Flimsy_Inevitable_15@reddit
LZ 127 graf zeppelin is right next the hindenburg in size (776 feet (236.53 m) in length), and just as comparable but had a more successful flight experience.
fightcluboston@reddit
I have one thats 401 ft long
vbe123@reddit
Banana for scale?
danit0ba94@reddit
In honor of one of my all-time favorite movies, i will forever know this great behemoth as:
The "Spirit of Freedom."
And no it has absolutely nothing to do with anything America related.
In fact I'll give you a hint: the name originates from a Japanese anime movie studio. Probably the most beloved one to ever exist.
mineset@reddit
Studio Ghibli?! whatâs the movie?
danit0ba94@reddit
You are on the right path.
Idk how to do the spoilers blocker thing, so i cant say it. Sorry đ
Lepanto76@reddit
Oh the humanity
cashewnut4life@reddit
=121.9m
xiaomi558869@reddit
Featured in the best episode of Archer ever. Rigid Airship!!!
Immediate_Garden_716@reddit
yes and let us power airships with hydrogen, the lighest of all elements/gases/fuels !!!! lom
Sad_Impression499@reddit
Oh, the humanity.
FenPhen@reddit
Pathfinder I
PTMorte@reddit
Thanks. This fad of people posting without names or places is getting out of control.Â
Run_and_find_out@reddit
Yes!
Blueberry_Mancakes@reddit
âNO TICKET!â- Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
canconshow@reddit
Finally, somewhere to post this - has everyone seen this company/concept Flying Whales?
I seems like: what if blimps were air barges for remote construction projects?
Wasatchbl@reddit
Automatic_Ad4016@reddit
Hahahahaha
ZanderZavier@reddit
Rigid Airship! Not a blimp.
mpg111@reddit
Wasatchbl@reddit
I still say " M as in Mancy"
space_coyote_86@reddit
Some broad gets on with a static-y sweater and then it's all 'waaaaahhhh the humanity!'
Mediocre-Catch9580@reddit
Oh the humanityÂ
burritoresearch@reddit
Oh, the huge manatee
The_MadStork@reddit
Thatâs gotta hurt!
itsyournameidiot@reddit
Damn this just took off in front of me yesterday
Imaginary_Ganache_29@reddit
I really need to go to California
Ok_Departure504@reddit
Kirov reporting
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
This content was removed for breaking the r/aviation rules.
This subreddit is dedicated to aviation and the discussion of aviation, not politics and religion. For discussion of these subjects, please choose a more appropriate subreddit.
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IShouldGetBackToWork@reddit
Read the Airborne novels by Kenneth Opel, it was such a magical world to dive into! Blimps were the kings of the sky in this alternate timeline.
Horizone_One@reddit
Close enough, hello Hindenburg 2.0
DeltaTule@reddit
Idk if Iâm just getting old but the jokes in these comments are so cringe
robo-dragon@reddit
Air ships are so freaking cool!
kirajoana23@reddit
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/048/017/757/original/oksana-nikolaeva-rx6.gif?1649013088
aflyingsquanch@reddit
Lana, no! You'll kill us all!!!
ChiDaddy123@reddit
Joining us on the Hindenburg 2.0, I seeâŠ
suktinis@reddit
No visible registration.
Also, many props, but no sign of engine/engines, suggesting an internal solution. But why would you want so many engines? Or a complicated internal linkage? Or convert rotational energy to electric and then directly back?
Gondola and landing gear directly from a Zeppelin NT.
External skin unpressurized, as structure is visible creating extra drag
Four finned tail, which also has no great benefit
I call AI-generated on this one...
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
"No visible registration." wrong. Look closer at photo #2.
Also, many props, but no sign of engine/engines, suggesting an internal solution. But why would you want so many engines? Or a complicated internal linkage? Or convert rotational energy to electric and then directly back? Wrong again, on all counts. Electric propulsion engines. The rotate to provide precise directional control. You want many small motors rather than a few large, heavy motors.
Gondola and landing gear directly from a Zeppelin NT. That's one in a row for you! It's a technology demostrator. Using gondola from Zeppelin NT reduces development cost. No need to reinvent this now.
External skin unpressurized, as structure is visible creating extra drag Wrong again. No rigid airship has ever been pressurized. That is not how they work. Gas is contained in cells within the rigid framework. Blimps, on the other hand, use internal gas pressure to inflate the envelope and maintain its shape.
Four finned tail, which also has no great benefit And finally, wrong. Pretty much every rigid airship has had four fins at the tail. Why would that be if there was no great benefit.
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
You're not too bright, are you.
ColossusA1@reddit
It flew over a few million people in the bay area yesterday, myself included! I watched it land at Moffett airfield. It's crazy that we have to question everything we see now, but this one is real.
jonquil_dress@reddit
Umm, registration is visible in the second pic.
ne0tas@reddit (OP)
https://ltaresearch.com/
DrEarlGreyIII@reddit
the registration is right on one of the tail fins
NiceGuyUncle@reddit
rigid
JoeyTheGreek@reddit
Turgid?
roadbikemadman@reddit
Tumescent even.
ariukidding@reddit
Kirov Airship Reporting iykyk
Onphone_irl@reddit
dlc??
yhzcdn@reddit
It canât be the largest, it weighs nothing!!!
No-Sell-3064@reddit
Hey! Don't call my mom like that
ValhallaAir@reddit
And you know what else is massive?
The_Safe_For_Work@reddit
PENIS! PENIS! PENIS!
SpruceGoose__@reddit
Cloase ennough: Welcome back LZ 129 Hindenburg!!!
This is gonna be lit!