Curious About Perception Towards Puritan Migrants to the U.S.?
Posted by ambm-@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 122 comments
I’ve read a few new-ish books recently (from the last 10 years) that have included some level of analysis of how the culture of English Puritan migrants from hundreds of years ago can still be seen in modern American culture today. It has made me think back to the very positive lens they were viewed through during my earliest days in school—the pursuit of “religious freedom” was the ultimate virtue in my very religious small hometown, and the founders of the U.S. seemed to constantly credit their pilgrimage as the reason this freedom is even enumerated in the constitution.
That said, there seems to be much more discussion in the zeitgeist of how the founding principles of the Puritans has supported the U.S.’s cannibalistic capitalist system, a culture of overworking, and acceptance of extreme and exclusive religious views as the appropriate drivers in our political system (rip).
Reflecting on all of this has made me wonder: how are these migrants viewed in the history of their homeland? Are they discussed in the UK’s mainstream education curriculum through a neutral lens or as traitors to the Church of England? Would love to hear about different experiences learning about this group.
Additionally, I’m curious what conversations there are on the Puritan’s impacts on modern UK culture. I’m aware that there were Puritans that stayed in England only because of witch trial-related stories (sorry, relying on a pretty Hollywood-ized perception here)? Thanks!
Alecmalloy@reddit
If you're too Puritan for fucking 16th-century England, chances are you are absolutely insane, and it was a good thing you left.
TruthfulRepugnance@reddit
Enjoyment is sinful.
LargeLetter1@reddit
They were religious extremists, even in the time of Cromwell. Many had been forced out of England and were living in Holland.
If English people think of Cromwell at all, they think of a joyless miserable period of history where Christmas was banned. So imagine how popular the Puritans were.
As soon as Cromwell died, the Crown and fun were restored.
So i guess this is why religious Americans seem to weird to most English people.
Raven-Nightshade@reddit
Migrants is a strong word, they were kicked out as a threat to the authority of the crown/church, and seeing how it was a puritan that took control in the English civil war just a few decades later (who tried to cancel Xmas and ban alcohol, there were riots), the nobility were not wrong.
illarionds@reddit
They're (correctly, in my view) seen as religious nutjobs we were very happy to be rid of.
I can't think of a context where "puritan" - whether with a capital P or not - has a positive association.
As the saying goes, they weren't seeking freedom from persecution - but freedom to persecute.
Rowmyownboat@reddit
They were not in pursuit of religious freedom. What the objected to was the other religions in Britain at that time. They wanted to create a community whereby only THEIR version of Christian beliefs was practiced.
How that got turned around into a pursuit of religious freedom is one of the greatest PR jobs ever.
DrHydeous@reddit
They're not discussed in school because they are just not very important.
The picture that we have of Puritans is that they were religious fundamentalists who hated fun. The "oppression" that the most extreme of them fled was that they were not allowed to impose their weird beliefs on everyone else. The general attitude is "good riddance to bad rubbish" and "Australia got the criminals, America got the fundie freaks, Australia got the better deal."
Parker_Borders283739@reddit
To you it was the most important event ever when the extremists formed your weird country.
For us it was Tuesday.
Drewski811@reddit
We couldn't give a flying monkeys.
They left, and we had way more important things going on at home and in Europe to worry about.
If we really stop and think about it, we know that they left because we told them they couldn't persecute others due to the beliefs that only they held. Because that's stupid. And so they left in a hissy fit.
Namelessbob123@reddit
I learnt about America in the 19th century for my A levels. It was quite interesting.
ZBD1949@reddit
I think the pilgrim fathers were a little earlier than that.
philbie@reddit
What about the Pilgrim mothers and children, why are they forgotten?
Namelessbob123@reddit
They were, I was just adding that what we did learn about the USA was more recent than the colonial times.
DistributionTop1479@reddit
Fake- they didn't have A-levels in the 19th century. Also, are you like 150 years old?
extrasuper@reddit
This. We sent our religious nutters to America, and criminals (although in reality mostly debtors, that is poor people) to Australia.
philbie@reddit
Last convict to Australia was in 1868, there have been many other British freeloaders since then. Also they only started sending the poor and unwashed to australia because the people in the newly discribed United States did not want them anymore because they were more into people from Africa to be their slaves
paulbrock2@reddit
> they (and most of the historic relationship between England and United States) are not discussed at all in the UK’s mainstream education curriculum
Frequent-Frosting336@reddit
How sad schooling is these days, though it was local history to my school during the 70s
We also learnt of General Wolfe in Canada, the indian wars, the 1812 war.
Lincoln and the American civil war not in great depth but enough to get by.
Oh and the wars of the roses was local history too. and Robin hood.
accordionshoes@reddit
Robin Hood in history? Loch Ness Monster in biology?
YorathTheWolf@reddit
TBF, there is merit to teaching history-adjacent folk beliefs as a way to frame the broader culture and circumstances that produced them
The development of, say, Arthurian legend is a good lens to explore the transition from Celtic through Anglo-Saxon into Norman England, and then the romanticist views that were popular amongst Victorians
YorathTheWolf@reddit
Plus it's a lesson in separating fact from fiction, so I reckon exploring the Robin Hood myth could be good Year 5/6/7 content
Do_You_Like_Owls@reddit
The world is huge and has a lot of history. No matter the education system things will always be missed.
SaltyName8341@reddit
We did our own local history nothing to do with schooling
filbert94@reddit
Miserable cunts hated fun and ran the country for a bit. We got fucked off with it enough to invite Charles back from his jollies in Europe.
Some of them got the hump and fucked off on a boat.
Year 9 history in a nutshell.
neilm1000@reddit
Quite an achievement since they buggered off some 40 heads years before the Restoration.
Substantial_Reveal90@reddit
Many, many left in the latter half of the 17th century.
Odd-Quail01@reddit
The puritans were too extreme for the folk who cancelled Christmas.
Substantial_Reveal90@reddit
Only in as much as they were religious nutcases that we were better off without?
Wanted religious freedom - to persecute anyone not aligned with them.
Unfortunately seem to still bear an undue influence on the US today....
BeaumarchaisApu@reddit
Are they discussed in the UK’s mainstream education curriculum through a neutral lens or as traitors to the Church of England?
On the whole they’re not discussed. Simple as that.
Frequent-Frosting336@reddit
I grew up in North Nottinghamshire, the original home of the Pilgrim fathers
We learned about them because oh, in this village is the church they would get fined for not going to, or they sailed on this river to holland.
or this school is called the mayflower, this pub is the pilgrim inn.
They were viewed as local heroes, and were more like quakers than the puritans we imagine, they came 20 or so yrs later with Oliver Cromwell and the Civil war.
neilm1000@reddit
Plymouth here, we talked about them a lot at school, there was a whole thing called Mayflower 400 planned for 2020 (obviously that didn't happen) and so on but I'm very aware that it just isn't talked about elsewhere apart from Notts, around Gainsborough etc.
Opposite_Funny9958@reddit
Bristol here - Mayflower replica visitor when it’s in dock! Wasn’t it built here? I forget.
PinkyOutYo@reddit
It's actually believed to have been built in my (reluctantly) adopted town, Harwich. There are schools named after it, and there's a train line running called the Mayflower Line.
The captain, Christopher Jones, was also believed to have been born here, although there was a span of years including his birth year where there are no baptismal records.
I mean, I'm willing to be corrected on any of this, this is passively absorbed knowledge.
nemetonomega@reddit
In general we don't discuss things through the lens of religion at all. For most people religion seems to be outdated and irrelevant.
Andromidius@reddit
At most its a reference to how glad everyone was when they left - because they were annoying and disruptive. And thus the USA happened.
Cold-Society3325@reddit
The UK has a lot of history and since the school curriculum covers world history as well, it woukd be impossible to cover everything. This means some Brits may have studied this and some won't. Most people probably only have a hazy idea about the whole thing. To be honest, the only thing I remember learning about the US at all is the Boston Tea Party.
National_Back_1658@reddit
I teach history at secondary school level (11-16 years old) and tbh, they barely come up. I mention the Mayflower when discussing reasons why people decided to leave England to colonise other lands but in very little detail. Puritans as a whole are probably seen more so in their opposition to others, the Puritan Challenge to Elizabeth I, their role in the Witch Trials and in Oliver Cromwell. Tbh, they don't come across particularly well but that's true of any religious fundamentalists.
For the average person, they probably knly know them as much as their story is featured in films like Addams Family Values or sitcoms?
BellendicusMax@reddit
To us they were largely unimportant. Another religious sect who fell foul of the ruling authorities.
Our assholes are your founding fathers. Its quite amusing.
TheNorthC@reddit
I would be interested in seeing how this question is tackled today in the USA. We know from an historical perspective that they were extremely nasty Taliban-esque religious extremists, fleeing religious tolerance in order to impose theological societies.
Is this deliberately not taught? Or does the story change throughout the education system? For example, a more gentle image at elementary school, and a truthful one at a high school?
TheNorthC@reddit
They have almost no influence on modern British culture. People are vaguely aware of them, and that probably has to do with an episode of Blackadder II (Beer, IIRC).
However, what is very easy to find out is that most of what Americans understand about them is mythical.
Those aboard the Mayflower were seeking to flee the religious tolerance of the Netherlands. Many of them could not bare to see their children embracing tolerance.
The Thanksgiving myth about sharing food with native Americans did not make any appearance until the nineteenth century.
The laws the colonists introduced were brutal, following Old Testament guidance, with extreme punshments of things we would consider legal or trivial today.
And what is clear is that this extremist ideology still lives on in parts of the USA.
movienerd7042@reddit
The only context where we really learn about puritans in our education system is in relation to the English civil war and Oliver Cromwell
IsfetLethe@reddit
Puritans are only really discussed in the context of the English Civil War. When we executed our king and then put Cromwell in charge and everything was so boring we decided to go back to kings and queens.
Also pet peeve of mine: that in the USA they talk about how the puritans wanted freedom FROM persecution when in fact they found England too liberal and wanted freedom TO persecute
PipkinsHartley@reddit
Agree with this, see also Blackadder.
MerlinMusic@reddit
While the puritanism of the pilgrims isn't really a big subject here, it's definitely something people are vaguely aware of. As for the impact of puritans on British culture, a lot of it is tied up with the Civil War, which is when they were most politically active (around the same time that they were settling the Americas).
A lot of puritans were strong supporters of, or part of, the parliamentary forces in the war, with Cromwell being the best remembered of the bunch, and are generally remembered for being no fun at all (e.g. cancelling Christmas, praying before battles, banning soldiers from gambling and whoring etc.)
All in all, puritans are remembered fairly negatively by the general public, but as part of the parliamentary coalition (along with plenty of other non-puritans) they did kill the King, which put our monarchs off tyrranical absolutism, and gave rise eventually to the de facto supremacy of parliament over the monarch and our modern day democracy.
TheNorthC@reddit
By coincidence I was listening to something on YouTube about the pilgrims a couple of days ago. The list of things punishable by death was very long, such as being the wrong type of protestant, such a Quaker. The whole move from the Netherlands was to get away from religious freedom, but to embrace it.
TheRemanence@reddit
Much better answer than most people saying it's not covered at all.
It's covered in history but not a huge thing.
Also most of those that went to the "new world" weren't puritans. Most went for economic reasons, even at the start. It's somewhat exaggerated in the history taught in the US.
This_Rom_Bites@reddit
I think it was mentioned in passing in pre-GCSE history. I have a vague recollection of being in middle school when it came up (no longer a stage in the English educational system; I was in one of the last to be phased out in the late 80s/early 90s).
These says the only thought I give it is when my partner comments that being largely founded on zealotry probably explains a lot about the US.
Nerissa23@reddit
Its interesting that there is a wide perception of them as reflected in all the comments. So we all know (a bit) about them
OddPerspective9833@reddit
It's not discussed. They were a tiny number of religious nuts nobody wanted around. They left. People were generally glad about that and moved on with their lives the next day.
Special_Corgi1110@reddit
I've always regarded them in the same vein as Golgafrinchans.
TrifectaOfSquish@reddit
From our perspective they were religious extremists who had imposed their beliefs on everyone else. Oliver Cromwell did some horrendous things it's very funny that in the US they are framed as victims who sought religious freedom it would be the equivalent of the Taliban being driven out of power in Afghanistan fleeing to another country and saying they did so in order to pursue religious freedom.
Opposite_Funny9958@reddit
They did want religious freedom - freedom to persecute others with impunity, we said no so they left to do it in America.
Fruitpicker15@reddit
They went to Leiden first where they couldn't stand the Dutch republic's religious tolerance. A truly nasty bunch of zealots.
neilm1000@reddit
Oliver Cromwell came along a bit later, though.
Historical_Heron4801@reddit
We did a module on the Stewart period including the Cromwell blip. The Puritans were mentioned. But the ones who sailed for America were literally a passing mention. I'm paraphrasing but something along the lines of "some Puritans were so displeased by the failure of the British people to kowtow to their religious misery, that they left to start a colony of their own in North America." then back to events in Britain. I think there may have been a separate box noting the voyage of the Mayflower.
There's a popular children's history series called Horrible Histories. If you Google "Horrible histories Puritans" you'll probably get a feel for it.
It's hard to deep dive history in school in the UK. We have a LOT of history to get through.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
I teach 17th century history to A-Level (the qualifications 18 year olds study before umiversity).
We discuss the Puritans, Presbyterian, Calvinists, Fifth Monarchists, Arminians, James I relations with the Puritans, the Hampton Court Conference where he met with the Puritans, James foreign policy and expansion in the US, James' choices of Archbishop of Canterbury and how that affection religious toleration in England in the 1600s...
We dont talk at all about the Puritans leaving for the US. Never touch on it.
Hope that helps.
11theman@reddit
No one gives a shit mate
11theman@reddit
Re-read this as it lingered in my head and it’s genuinely fascinating the contrast of cultural experience. Your presumption we even think about is quite funny. It’s not taught nor is it discussed.
Opposite_Funny9958@reddit
….where you live perhaps! Different schools in different areas cover different things - I went to school in Bridgwater, just up the road from the Battle Of Sedgmoor - Cromwell came from Somerset or lived there or something- and the junior and Secondary schools certainly do cover the puritans and the history immediately before and after ….. or at least they did back in the 1970’s and ‘80’s!
dereks63@reddit
I'm looking forward to the comments on this, I think your slightly naïve refection of the subject will get chewed up and spat out by some very historically learned redditors. Sit back and enjoy.
ExtremeActuator@reddit
Is this going how you expected , OP?
Opposite_Funny9958@reddit
I was just wondering that myself!
pointlesstips@reddit
Most people know that they left because they were such extremists and their views were so fundamentalist that they refused to function in what was a normal society in them times. No wonder they went elsewhere and committed the most despicable atrocities.
MovingTarget2112@reddit
The idea of seeking religious freedom is an American myth.
The Pilgrims left because they were a bunch of intolerant fundies who wanted to oppress everyone, but the English authorities wouldn’t let them.
surfrider0007@reddit
Likely they were just nut jobs that couldn’t fit in in Britain due to their being too religiously extreme at the time when people were realising religion’s just a way of scaring and extorting people.
Opposite_Funny9958@reddit
The puritans who set sale for America left because English law at the time didn’t allow them to persecute people the way they wanted to…..(quite rightly imho) …..so off they went to foreign shores cursing us and looking for more victims to persecute and abuse……fast forward 250 odd years and we now have Hegseth and his “kill kill kill” evangelical “Christian” army rhetoric and the ununited state - for modern America IS a right fucking state at the moment - of America leading us into WW3. Ain’t religion grand? /s
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
I was born in Plymouth and knew about the Mayflower Steps etc.
More recently, I've been reading about who these guys really were. They were super-intolerant and fundamentalist and that's why they were kicked out of England.
The Pilgrim Society is interesting too, they were behind Brexit.
WrethZ@reddit
America has a topic is barely covered at all, other than the slave trade. I wouldn't be suprised if the average brit is barely even aware of their existence.
Alone_Bet_1108@reddit
It was framed as England sending its most batshit crazy people over the water and that's why the US is the way it is now.
BuncleCar@reddit
I doubt if many people in the UK have heard of them.
Grendahl2018@reddit
Going back to my history lessons in the 60s - which were all read out of the text book by the Xaverian Brother who was our history teacher (and one of the worst teachers ever) - all I can remember about the Puritans is that they cancelled Christmas and when that didn’t prove popular fucked off to America to impose their shit there.
All heavily influenced by the text book in question of course. No idea now what it was, but at a Catholic school you can bet your bottom dollar it was never going to be accepting of any faith or faith history other than its own
ignatiusjreillyXM@reddit
The concept of a "traitor to the Church of England" is about as un-Anglican a thing as can be imagined.
I think in general they are regarded here as intolerant extremists who we are pleased left England. That would broadly be the establishment view, at least. There is probably a strong regional variation in opinion though, with parts of the East of England (including our town of Boston, which has its own very specific history with Puritans) in particular being more sympathetic to their worldview.
neilm1000@reddit
These days, yes. For a certain period of time, no.
Adorable-East-2276@reddit
FWIW, the Weber theory you’re indirectly citing here is viewed by most historians as “unprovable nonsense”
neilm1000@reddit
I was going to write something about this and then thought about what I'd say, and shelved it as I'd not be wholly consistent. I do subscribe to the theory to some extent (David Landes wrote an interesting assessment of it) and whilst I don't think it's unprovable nonsense I do accept that it has drawbacks.
Hecklemop@reddit
The modern day puritans need to be kicked out of the USA, just like they were yeeted from the UK. They are horribly annoying. I talk about them often
Leading_Study_876@reddit
Send them to Afghanistan. That should be fun.
Ok_Book_765@reddit
We studied The Crucible at school. It se med like the only fun they had was picking on outcasts like Abigail Williams and having affairs !
Ok-Respect-1725@reddit
It's interesting that America associates them with 'religious freedom' when they were actually religiously oppressive
ignatiusjreillyXM@reddit
Quite. The first set left Boston in Lincolnshire initially for the Netherlands, and returned to England and only then went on to America, having found Dutch tolerance for other forms of Christianity unacceptable.
PassiveTheme@reddit
You're assuming that they are a major part of UK's history because they are a major part of America's. They left the UK and thus stopped being of any importance to British history. As with other important parts of America's history, the puritans are not really discussed in mainstream education or media. There are a lot more events that are of significance in British history so we can't fit things into our curriculum, even though they might be the most important part of another country's history.
hr100@reddit
I didn't even realise til I was 16 or so that American pilgrims were English. Only them because the course I was studying it covered it under revolutions.
It's such a tiny part of our history and isn't discussed. Our school history for British topics is stuff like War of the Roses,1066, industrial revolution and World Wars.
Realistic-River-1941@reddit
We are glad they left.
iamthefirebird@reddit
It doesn't come up often, but when it does they're usually described as religious zealots who couldn't stand not being allowed to impose their own religious views on the wider population. My understanding of their views on "religious freedom" is that they wanted the freedom to practice their religion how they wanted, and for everyone else to be forced to follow their religion as well.
This is probably something of an exaggeration, but I know which version I trust more.
Key_Plum_99a@reddit
Um, Hi England here, the American puritan migrants left England because you wanted more restrictive religion. A general consensus might be that many of the really religious-nutcase type people got on a boat to America. We are pretty neutral about that because the numbers were low, and about 20 years later we had a civil war with “Roundhead” puritans (republicans) versus Monarchist “Cavaliers”.
We are not specifically taught about the Mayflowers tiny part of history in our curriculum, mainly because we have a longer history as a country, and each country’s history is more important to its people than other people’s history in general. Our witch trials were at their height in 1590, thirty years ish before the Mayflower.
In 1620 England, Scotland and Wales had a new King, Charles 1st, following the death of the witch-finder King James 1st (6th of Scotland). We were at the start of the 30 year war with Spain and then we went on to behead King Charles 1, and have a civil war with our own brand of Puritanism and religious nut-casery winning and had a republic with Oliver Cromwell in charge and no King for a while. Then we reversed a lot of those decisions and made his son King Charles 2nd, but the power of Parliament was increased, and that of the Monarchy reduced.
The Restoration of the monarchy (Charles 2) in 1660 led to Puritanism waning, but non-conformist Protestant sects were able to grow, including Quakers and Methodists following a religious tolerance act of Parliament in 1689. The puritans (of America) are not considered traitors nowadays - you do you!
Puritanism in England hardened anti-Catholic sentiments, and affected the arts (theatre and what plays could be performed etc) and freedom of speech for about 200+ years, as well as increasing the power of Parliament and reducing that of the King.
ginger_lucy@reddit
They were never mentioned in history lessons at my school (ok, possibly an exaggeration because they might have been mentioned in passing but if so I don’t remember it). The only US history I was taught was the bit between WW1 and WW2 with FDR and the New Deal.
As such, I have effectively no opinion because I never think about them. Prompted to do so by this post, I suppose my only thought would be good riddance, they sound awful.
This reminds me of when a French person came onto one of the Ask UK/Brits subs and wanted to know what we all thought about Joan of Arc and her resistance against the English, did we discuss her often? Major, major cultural icon in France, heroine and key figure in their history and education. Not really of a great deal of consequence to us over here in the 2020s. Things that can have deep significance in one country can be essentially a footnote in another.
Roxygen1@reddit
My entire knowledge of them comes from references in sitcoms. Like Ross's monkey pooping in Monica's black shoes with buckles on and Rachel calls them pilgrim shoes.
Petcai@reddit
They were a tiny fringe group we didn't care about when they sailed off, and we still don't care about them now. The only reason I know they existed is from curiosity, I once wondered WTF Thanksgiving was celebrating and looked it up.
Ok-Direction-8257@reddit
They were not the persecuted. They were the persecutors.
derf_2000@reddit
The Civil War, Oliver Cromwell, and the Restoration are taught in schools (at least I was), but not in any great depth. Typically, the gist of what is taught is that puritans were bad (see Cromwell) and it was a good thing for England that they all left and stopped ruining everyone's fun. This, of course, is an oversimplification. It is notable, however, that a population accepted the return of a monarchy after deposing and executing the previous monarch 9 years before, those 9 years spent being ruled by a Puritan.
In terms of being seen as traitors by the Church of England, that doesn't make much sense. As embodied by Cromwell, the main enemy of the Puritan was the Catholic, and while the C of E had certain Catholic properties, it was fundamentally Protestant. The main exodus of Puritans occurring during the reign of Charles I, due to his Catholic leanings (his wife was Catholic).
GingerWindsorSoup@reddit
The Puritans objected to the mildest catholic ceremonies that remained by the Church of England , they objected to an ordered liturgy (the Book of Common Prayer), the cross in baptism, the wearing of the surplice and other vestments, ornaments like the cross and candles and stained glass and images and sculptures in church, altar tables in church, many objected to Episcopacy ( Bishops) though most were independents/congregationalists rather than full blown Presbyterians, many taught a Calvinist predestination faith that conflicted with the more liberal Arminian understanding of salvation that bishops many in the Anglican establishment taught. Most ordinary Anglican congregations were mildly Calvinist considering themselves good protestants , liturgically ordered and conformist, their churches often still retained stained glass and medieval fittings that were destroyed later by extremists in the civil war, generally they had no wish to upset the delicate religious settlement. The bishops and magistrates would have not taken kindly to independent congregations not conforming to the religious settlement and unsupervised preaching and that is what ultimately made them flees to Holland and later to America.
Green_Lychee8221@reddit
We had a very brief overview at school: Mayflower, pilgrims, puritans, right through to the Boston Tea party and differing military tactics between British and French / American armies. It was probably a few hours of lessons and through a completely neutral lens.
OllyDee@reddit
Of those that know - we were glad to be rid of them, and at the time they were glad to go. England wasn’t puritanical enough for them, the irony being there would be a puritanical military dictatorship just around the corner for people just like them. Cromwell and the lads would be forcing this shit down everyone’s throats at musket-point until our beloved party boy Charles II returned.
Puritans aren’t regarded as a “Good Thing” in modern England generally speaking, although you’d need to speak to someone with a good grasp on English history to even find someone who knows what the fuck your going on about.
Longjumping_Car3318@reddit
They don't get talked about besides maybe a passing reference. In the grand scheme of things the colonies that became the US aren't a big part of British history.
Ashamed_North348@reddit
I wasn’t taught about them in school so anything I know has been in books or tv. It was my impression that they left for religious freedom which meant they wanted to do things differently than the general religious goings on? It seems though that we in the UK have more religious freedom than the Americans?
MojoMomma76@reddit
They were bonkers and we were glad to see them go. The American total aversion to nudity on TV and pro gun nature appears to have originated with them so it’s a good job they went 👍
smoulderstoat@reddit
You'd be highly unlikely to be taught anything about it at school; it's not a particularly significant event in British history. If kids are taught about it, it certainly wouldn't be to teach them that they were traitors, because that would cross the boundary into indoctrination. They'd just be taught the facts about what happened, what the causes and effects were.
I don't think most British people have much of an opinion, but if they do it's that they were religious extremists who wanted somewhere to practice their own brand of oppressive religion, and the fact that your country was in part founded by fundamentalists explains a lot about today.
CAPalmer1@reddit
I remember briefly covering the topic in history when looking at the wider period of time. We did the Tudor and Stuart’s at like age 8 and it would have been mentioned then. And I did the British civil war in high school, maybe about 13, and would have touched on it then.
But it’s really, really not a big part of our history. And not in a rude way but you have to remember that this is literally your origin story whereas for us, it’s just a footnote as they weren’t in our history anymore. You could say they did their biggest and most memorable stuff after they walked out of our history and into yours.
laredditadora@reddit
I’ve not really ever thought about it. But now that you’ve brought it to my attention… good riddance?
Oghamstoner@reddit
So uptight even the English wanted to get rid of them! Puritans are better known in Britain for the Civil War, atrocities in Ireland, and banning theatre and Christmas. The Pilgirm Fathers aren’t a foundation myth for Brits, and they weren’t the first Brits in America either, so basically a footnote.
mrbullettuk@reddit
I recall we did cover a tiny bit about the pilgrim fathers being the first settlers on the Mayflower. We didn’t really cover anything about who they were and why but I think I did this in primary school or early secondary.
Particular-Bid-1640@reddit
Bible bashing freaks. Glad they left. They now continue use their religion to feed on the vulnerable in the States. They're part of the reason there's 'Christian' nut jobs in power now
lengualo@reddit
Not really taught, but we know who they were. Religious extremists who werent given the freedom to dictate the lifestyles of others.
CharmingMeringue@reddit
No one talks about it, no one cares.
Ctrl_daltdelete@reddit
I recall having one lesson on the puritans at school aged about 14. It's unlikely many others will remember it. The gist was that they were extremists who tried (possibly succeeded, I can't remember) banning sports or games on Sundays, criminalising blasphemy to a great extent and generally being disliked by the majority. After Cromwell died and we reinstated the monarchy, the movement largely died out with a lot of puritans moving to colonies in North America. This is a massive oversimplification of complex history, based on an hour of learning about it over twenty years ago. Most people won't know anything beyond the popular belief that they were joyless extremists.
wosmo@reddit
There's a running joke that we sent all our criminals to Australia, all our religious nutjobs to the US, and .. the results speak for themselves.
That's the closest most people will ever get to discussing any of this.
Barmcake@reddit
If they are thought of at all they are considered to be religious extremists.
Hamsternoir@reddit
Never even mentioned at school and it's only when some American mentions it that it even registers.
From what I know they were crazy and thought we weren't puritan enough so buggered off
FantasticWeasel@reddit
Agree, the only thing I ever learned about American history in school was one lesson about American troops in WW1.
There were a few 1950s kids history books knocking about in the school library when I was in primary school in the 80s and they had the odd page about the pilgrims which implied they were a small joyless group of weirdos who went off to be miserable somewhere else because nobody in the UK was interested in their plans.
weedywet@reddit
They were the religious loonies who Europe basically kicked out.
It’s only American revisionism that frames them as ‘running from religious persecution’
Much like modern Christian Nationalists and other extremists in America, the ‘persecution’ they refer to is that they weren’t allowed to control or persecute those they disagreed with.
Wild-Improvement-119@reddit
As others have said, we don't actually learn about any of it in school or anything. It is mentioned in Horrible Histories (kids history books and popular TV show) so some of us do know a little about it and to be honest, the only thing it makes us think is that they were probably a bit mental and more than likely nobody was sad when they left because that kind of religious fervour is a bit much for most of us to want to deal with.
Stunning_Anteater537@reddit
They were a bunch of fundamentalist Christian nutjobs who were annoyed that they couldn't make the rest of the UK population as miserable as they were. So they left.
You guys were welcome to them.
Orange_Codex@reddit
Fringe religious extremists responsible for the destruction of a vast amount of English cultural heritage, remembered chiefly for their role in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and genocides in Scotland and Ireland.
Still, I'll defend them from the allegation they kick-started US capitalism. Many other Puritans (not the genocidal sort; men like Winstanley and Lilburne) were proto-anarchists.
canspreadmulch@reddit
Nobody thinks about or discusses this kind of thing. My thankfully ex brother in law was Texan and he couldn’t believe we never studied American history in school. Jesus guys we’ve got so much more history to learn about, I get you think it’s important because it’s pertinent to you but nobody else gives a shit.
Dedward5@reddit
This is a good point of reference https://youtube.com/shorts/QQOGHxMJ-gM?si=w8AxRWn8wf2Lb6v_
MATE_AS_IN_SHIPMATE@reddit
Are others note, they aren't viewed as important.
They were so annoying, even the Dutch kicked them out.
The religious freedom they were looking for was the freedom to dictate the behaviour of others. Sounds familiar.
Soggy-Mistake8910@reddit
Hardly thought about at all except to think of them as Britain's gain America's loss
Unusual_residue@reddit
This isn't something anyone on these great isles thinks or cares about
MrMonkeyman79@reddit
They're not even a footnote in our rich and lengthy history and not a group of people I've ever thought about enough to form an opinion on. In fact I thought about them more reading this post than I have at any other point in my life.
skibbin@reddit
Oliver Cromwell was no fun
oliviashrewtonbong@reddit
Nobody ever talks about this tbh it's very unimportant
qualityvote2@reddit
Hello u/ambm-! Welcome to r/AskABrit!
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