This is a technique used in nuclear power plant operations. You read the step of the procedure and the person who’s doing the action touches but does not engage the switch/button and repeats what is to be done, or calls out the instrument and what it should be reading etc. It provides a peer check/concurrent verification to avoid human performance errors like others have talked about. Once you make it the way you do business and don’t feel awkward it’s very very effective at minimizing mistakes.
I do facility operation in data centers and we do the exact same. It feels silly until the first time you point at the wrong thing or repeat back the wrong action.
Yes. The lady on the left is confirming whatever the lady on the right says. I’m not fluent enough to understand what the lady on the right is saying but can confirm the lady on the left!
I just learned about shinsa kanko this year and it's Japanese origin. Quite surprised even China borrowed it. When it comes to safety best to be pragmatic instead of thinking along the lines of historical animosity.
I looked it up after seeing it in the japanese railway system. While it maybe looks weird at first for us westerners, it should be implemented everywhere where a lot of people are being transported because it minimizes human error and it saves lives
Stuff like this is pretty normal in aviation. A lot of checklists are written for two people, one to be reading the checklist awaiting a response from the other who is doing the check. If they don’t get the correct response, you don’t go down to the next thing on the list.
Pointing and calling is different from having a checklist and two people. A single person can (and should) do it.
Difference is that with a simple checklist you read "Flap 15", look at the lever and you say Check if it is in the correct position.
Pointing and calling you have to point the lever with your finger and then say Check. Seems stupid, but the gesture increases your attention to what you are checking and reduces potential errors.
Most airline pilots do the point-and-say with altitude changes. Pilot flying sets the next altitude, and both pilots read it off of either the instruments or autopilot panel and point at it.
Oh it’s definitely a little different, but I think I naturally have done this while running checklists. I think it would be a great safety thing to bring up for us to start doing
It is pretty common outside of Japan now. It’s used in the NYC subway. You’ll see them call and point at the placard that tells them where to stop and other things.
I was listening to a podcast the other day that talks about this. There are some scientific studies that suggest that the act of pointing at the thing makes us pay attention to it. So the pointing is a way to try and eliminate the "yeah I did that" on a checklist that you do many times per day.
I’ve seen NYC subway conductors point both ways right before the train leaves the station. Can’t tell what they’re pointing to (doesn’t appear to be pointing at the doors to check that they’re closed, might be to the cctv screens to check that nobody is stuck in a door at the front or the back of the train?), but definitely part of a safety routine
I thought of this too when reading the post. The conductor is pointing to a zebra striped sign hanging at the point of the platform where the conductor's car should be. This pointing and calling ensures the subway is fully in the station.
After learning about it, I use it to some extent in my own life. In particular if I'm leaving for a while and want to make sure I have the house closed up, I'll point to the places that should be closed up.
I always make a checklist for this. And a reactivation checklist. And well, a lot of things I do. When MS released the Tasks app, I felt like I’d died and gone to heaven, lol.
Im think this is similar to pilot/copilot making call out to every action they do? Seems pretty effective way to ensure steps are followed to prevent damage/accident.
Same, I always double or triple check the disarm lever and also the girt bar indicators if they’re available. I don’t wanna be the guy that blows a slide into the bridge or onto someone in the hangar. lol
The lever has the door drop the girt bar into the door fittings. Opening the door in that position like 10 inches or more will pull the slide off its fittings and drop. If the slide falls far enough away from the girt bar, the system activates and the deployment we know and love begins.
The EPAS system, when active with its own switch and the door in Arm, will pnuematically swing the door open and from that its basically impossible to stop a full deployment.
It will take the door off if it's opened on the bridge or over a set of stairs, too. Air India did it in Heathrow a few years ago, we parked right next to them. Opened L4 on the 787 with air stairs attached and it took the door off the bottom hinge. Oops. We taxied in and all gawked at the carnage, thankfully nobody was on the stairs to get injured.
With the epas on for sure! Most of the time we have that off, so people dont watch the lever and then the slide fall onto the jet bridge or air stair without activating. Then we gotta find the disarm pins for the slide and point and laugh at the dude who opened the door without checking lmao
They're checking (and double checking) that the slide is disarmed before opening the door. If it was still armed, the lady behind the door when it opened would have been seriously injured, or worse.
The Japanese pretty much invented this "pointing and calling" thing, but every decent airline does something similar. You'll often hear "Doors, cross check and verify" or something right before takeoff and just after landing.
This actually originated in Japan train industry. They have observed the decrease in error rates when running the check list (like in this case) if you point to the item in question and say it out aloud.
This is now is being borrowed by the airlines and if anything that makes me feel safer flying with Hawaii airlines
Not sure what they're saying but their hands move to slightly different positions each time. It's likely for the handle, the pressurization gauge and the red/green safety window.
"Shisa Kanko" which translates to point and call, is an SOP that developed in Japan but widely used in other East Asian countries as well, which is a double/triple checking method that aims to reduce human errors by using the psychological effect of pointing and calling (you're more certain on something when you point at it and call it out)
That is a big slide that they are disarming. It will inflate within seconds and be rock hard. If the jetbridge is right there it creates a scenario where lives could be lost. Sure the money of repacking, certifying, and reinstalling a slide is around 100,000-200,000 with airplane downtime but people can die. Two eyes to check and confirm, slow the process down, and hard rules on who actually initiates opening the door are all industry standard. It seems like an easy thing but it isn’t when the stakes are high.
Whenever i open a door, i take a good look at each indication, make sure the pin is in place, say to myself out loud "disarmed" and open it.
One time. (Once in a great while I might do it twice) Each time. Every time.
Doesn't matter if I open the door to change a slide or bottle, or to lube up a prox switch, inspect the door, seal or other components, or just to allow a draft in the cabin.
I always do that procedure.
And in 10 years of working on commercial airplanes, i have never blown a slide. Not to say I never will, (god forbid),
But I don't look over the indications 5, 7, 13 times in a row before doing it. I find that over the top and unnecessary.
Oh, I thought it was some kind of prayer ritual before opening the door. I imagined them saying, “Oh Lord, kill all the demons on the other side of this door!”
This is perfect system of safety. I work on the apron at an airport myself and use this system at important moments. At home, I even point to the switches on the stove and oven when I leave after using them to make sure they are really off.
None of them do lol. Super expensive mishap. I work for one of the legacy carriers in the US. Our training is extremely similar. Have to verbally remind yourself to “stop, think, and locate” before every arming or disarming/ opening. You are saying this to remind yourself of where the arming lever is and where you need it to be for the action you’re about to take. If you are disarming, you stop think and locate arming lever to make sure it IS in the armed position before touching it the proceed with disarming it, After you disarm it you point can call “arming lever is in disarmed position, disarmed placard is extended, panel lights are red” etc etc all your visual checks are said out loud just like this.
That’s why in nuclear power we place-keep. Any procedure involving component manipulations, we circle the step number, read the step, perform, then slash the step number.
The people who blaze it off and don’t do proper place-keeping are bound to end up in a conference room and a week unpaid leave
That is the point of the point (or touch). When you read ‘Landing Gear’ the other pilot points or touches the gear lights and handle and gives the appropriate response…’Gear Down and Locked, Four Green’ or if note so good…’Gear not down, Nose Gear Light Red’! The pointing or touching the lights, levers or instrument dial narrows and concentrates your attention.
Flying piston twins at about 500 agl I had my own routine and chant to my self and point ‘gear down, three green, final flaps set, mixtures rich, props forward and we are cleared too land 24 R. That was done after we had done the regular check list. Jets would lose the mixtures and in some aircraft you might arm spoilers or RTOP…what ever needed for one final check.
Checklists are how we avoid human error. So many accidents happened because there either were no checklists for something or a checklist didnt get followed. Its great that they are following procedure so closely. It seems extra until you miss one step and everyone has a bad day.
whiskeytown79@reddit
Presumably this is an instance of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling
kpbi787@reddit
This is a technique used in nuclear power plant operations. You read the step of the procedure and the person who’s doing the action touches but does not engage the switch/button and repeats what is to be done, or calls out the instrument and what it should be reading etc. It provides a peer check/concurrent verification to avoid human performance errors like others have talked about. Once you make it the way you do business and don’t feel awkward it’s very very effective at minimizing mistakes.
icheinbir@reddit
I do facility operation in data centers and we do the exact same. It feels silly until the first time you point at the wrong thing or repeat back the wrong action.
Awesome_coder1203@reddit
Yes. The lady on the left is confirming whatever the lady on the right says. I’m not fluent enough to understand what the lady on the right is saying but can confirm the lady on the left!
mkdz@reddit
Lady in the right is harder to hear. I heard "light on" a couple of times.
Awesome_coder1203@reddit
Yeah, now that I listen again I hear 灯亮. Still not sure what she is actually saying though.
obefiend@reddit
I just learned about shinsa kanko this year and it's Japanese origin. Quite surprised even China borrowed it. When it comes to safety best to be pragmatic instead of thinking along the lines of historical animosity.
Awesome_coder1203@reddit
I thought modern day checklists were invented by Boeing in 1935?
Shadow_Ass@reddit
I looked it up after seeing it in the japanese railway system. While it maybe looks weird at first for us westerners, it should be implemented everywhere where a lot of people are being transported because it minimizes human error and it saves lives
Dominus_Redditi@reddit
Stuff like this is pretty normal in aviation. A lot of checklists are written for two people, one to be reading the checklist awaiting a response from the other who is doing the check. If they don’t get the correct response, you don’t go down to the next thing on the list.
nico282@reddit
Pointing and calling is different from having a checklist and two people. A single person can (and should) do it.
Difference is that with a simple checklist you read "Flap 15", look at the lever and you say Check if it is in the correct position.
Pointing and calling you have to point the lever with your finger and then say Check. Seems stupid, but the gesture increases your attention to what you are checking and reduces potential errors.
BaconContestXBL@reddit
Most airline pilots do the point-and-say with altitude changes. Pilot flying sets the next altitude, and both pilots read it off of either the instruments or autopilot panel and point at it.
Soderholmsvag@reddit
& reduces errors about 85% according to many studies.
Dominus_Redditi@reddit
Oh it’s definitely a little different, but I think I naturally have done this while running checklists. I think it would be a great safety thing to bring up for us to start doing
Awesome_coder1203@reddit
Checklists are used everywhere in aviation.
JohnLilburne@reddit
Everywhere…..except maybe crossing a runway in Laguardia in a fire truck.
roshiface@reddit
I use point and call as an American anesthesiologist
ronaldoswanson@reddit
It is pretty common outside of Japan now. It’s used in the NYC subway. You’ll see them call and point at the placard that tells them where to stop and other things.
Opening-Comfort-3996@reddit
I was listening to a podcast the other day that talks about this. There are some scientific studies that suggest that the act of pointing at the thing makes us pay attention to it. So the pointing is a way to try and eliminate the "yeah I did that" on a checklist that you do many times per day.
MoistMartini@reddit
I’ve seen NYC subway conductors point both ways right before the train leaves the station. Can’t tell what they’re pointing to (doesn’t appear to be pointing at the doors to check that they’re closed, might be to the cctv screens to check that nobody is stuck in a door at the front or the back of the train?), but definitely part of a safety routine
duckntureen@reddit
I thought of this too when reading the post. The conductor is pointing to a zebra striped sign hanging at the point of the platform where the conductor's car should be. This pointing and calling ensures the subway is fully in the station.
Athrynne@reddit
After learning about it, I use it to some extent in my own life. In particular if I'm leaving for a while and want to make sure I have the house closed up, I'll point to the places that should be closed up.
RandomObserver13@reddit
I always make a checklist for this. And a reactivation checklist. And well, a lot of things I do. When MS released the Tasks app, I felt like I’d died and gone to heaven, lol.
Texas_Kimchi@reddit
This is exactly what CRM is. Confirmation.
nico282@reddit
Point and calling is not about confirmation, is about physically pointing your finger at the thing you are checking rather than just looking.
FROOMLOOMS@reddit
Im think this is similar to pilot/copilot making call out to every action they do? Seems pretty effective way to ensure steps are followed to prevent damage/accident.
VulgarButFluent@reddit
I also eyeball that lever like 5 or 6 times before i open the door. All fun and games until a slides partially deployed on the jetbridge lol
C4-621-Raven@reddit
Same, I always double or triple check the disarm lever and also the girt bar indicators if they’re available. I don’t wanna be the guy that blows a slide into the bridge or onto someone in the hangar. lol
jasta07@reddit
Girt bar?
Unexpected Australian reference...
cheetuzz@reddit
what determines if the slide deploys or not? Is it the same door lever?
VulgarButFluent@reddit
The lever has the door drop the girt bar into the door fittings. Opening the door in that position like 10 inches or more will pull the slide off its fittings and drop. If the slide falls far enough away from the girt bar, the system activates and the deployment we know and love begins.
The EPAS system, when active with its own switch and the door in Arm, will pnuematically swing the door open and from that its basically impossible to stop a full deployment.
flightwatcher45@reddit
There is no partial deployment lol, those slides will find room, watch out!
Drewbox@reddit
They don’t find room, they make room.
ywgflyer@reddit
It will take the door off if it's opened on the bridge or over a set of stairs, too. Air India did it in Heathrow a few years ago, we parked right next to them. Opened L4 on the 787 with air stairs attached and it took the door off the bottom hinge. Oops. We taxied in and all gawked at the carnage, thankfully nobody was on the stairs to get injured.
flightwatcher45@reddit
Yep I've seen it back up into the cabin a practically crush people!
VulgarButFluent@reddit
With the epas on for sure! Most of the time we have that off, so people dont watch the lever and then the slide fall onto the jet bridge or air stair without activating. Then we gotta find the disarm pins for the slide and point and laugh at the dude who opened the door without checking lmao
KirkieSB@reddit
Is there something special happening? 🤔
zerbey@reddit
They're checking (and double checking) that the slide is disarmed before opening the door. If it was still armed, the lady behind the door when it opened would have been seriously injured, or worse.
KirkieSB@reddit
Thanks 👍
Ok_Lime4124@reddit
Practice to prevent a 20,000 dollar mistake.
Sasquatch-d@reddit
You’re severely underestimating that cost.
vfrflying@reddit
Yes people actually giving a shit about their work. The world needs a lot more of this.
pinnerjay17@reddit
They aren't messing around.
Rough_Bill_7932@reddit
Ok, I have to ask after 97 comments. Could some tell what airplane this is.
MrFickless@reddit
787
Rough_Bill_7932@reddit
Thanks
Left-Associate3911@reddit
OK…so…🤷♂️
zerbey@reddit
The Japanese pretty much invented this "pointing and calling" thing, but every decent airline does something similar. You'll often hear "Doors, cross check and verify" or something right before takeoff and just after landing.
ExpressLab6564@reddit
Every airline I've follow in does this. One person does the check and then another veifies
NyJosh@reddit
We use it in IT for critical tasks as well. We call it the four eyes principle.
Quattuor@reddit
This actually originated in Japan train industry. They have observed the decrease in error rates when running the check list (like in this case) if you point to the item in question and say it out aloud. This is now is being borrowed by the airlines and if anything that makes me feel safer flying with Hawaii airlines
clientsoup@reddit
Hainan. Not Haitian.
Wingmaniac@reddit
The specific motions are probably airline specific, but every competent airline has strict instructions on how to safely arm/disarm/check the doors.
SpicyPanda23@reddit
And we still have slides getting deployed somewhat frequently lol
Wingmaniac@reddit
Yep, doesn't matter how refined the SOPs are and how good the training is, there's still the human factor.
RandomObserver13@reddit
Life would be so much easier if it weren’t for all the people involved. 😉
SharkAttackOmNom@reddit
You can’t stop people from having a bad day and skipping steps. Also mechanical failure but more commonly human failure.
Porkyrogue@reddit
So they did all that with one lever?
Wingmaniac@reddit
Not sure what they're saying but their hands move to slightly different positions each time. It's likely for the handle, the pressurization gauge and the red/green safety window.
cashewnut4life@reddit
"Shisa Kanko" which translates to point and call, is an SOP that developed in Japan but widely used in other East Asian countries as well, which is a double/triple checking method that aims to reduce human errors by using the psychological effect of pointing and calling (you're more certain on something when you point at it and call it out)
Wingmaniac@reddit
Very interesting It's something I do naturally when flying.
"Flaps?"
"One set" points at flap handle "and indicating" points at indicator.
Boeinggoing737@reddit
That is a big slide that they are disarming. It will inflate within seconds and be rock hard. If the jetbridge is right there it creates a scenario where lives could be lost. Sure the money of repacking, certifying, and reinstalling a slide is around 100,000-200,000 with airplane downtime but people can die. Two eyes to check and confirm, slow the process down, and hard rules on who actually initiates opening the door are all industry standard. It seems like an easy thing but it isn’t when the stakes are high.
West_Good_5961@reddit
I thought the video was only 2 seconds long and looping.
danit0ba94@reddit
I respect having strict methodical standards to avoid goofs like blowing slides by accident.
But this is a bit much.
And something tells me the number of times they jump this hoop increases with easy deployment.
How long until they have to do this for half an hour straight? Or longer?
bunbun8@reddit
"But this is a bit much.
And something tells me the number of times they jump this hoop increases with easy deployment."
Your qualifications to make that assessment? What would you suggest as an alternative?
danit0ba94@reddit
Whenever i open a door, i take a good look at each indication, make sure the pin is in place, say to myself out loud "disarmed" and open it.
One time. (Once in a great while I might do it twice) Each time. Every time.
Doesn't matter if I open the door to change a slide or bottle, or to lube up a prox switch, inspect the door, seal or other components, or just to allow a draft in the cabin.
I always do that procedure.
And in 10 years of working on commercial airplanes, i have never blown a slide. Not to say I never will, (god forbid),
But I don't look over the indications 5, 7, 13 times in a row before doing it. I find that over the top and unnecessary.
anteup@reddit
What procedure are they completing in American aviation terms? "Disarm doors, cross check"?
Jezzer111@reddit
This is ridicurous
lordscrotus1984@reddit
It's always comforting to see everyone in the crew following instructions and checklists, even when it's "just" about opening the door at the airport.
ConnectionLeft3964@reddit
You will be delayed by an hour to be able to put a foot on the gate
Ok_Fox7873@reddit
Oh, I thought it was some kind of prayer ritual before opening the door. I imagined them saying, “Oh Lord, kill all the demons on the other side of this door!”
Masterblaster8180@reddit
I bet their chances of sending a slide into the jetway are slim to none.
bassthrive@reddit
Let the agent open it from the outside and it’s effectively zero chance.
Sasquatch-d@reddit
That doesn’t work for every aircraft type.
tuddrussell2@reddit
I just ordered one of those eink 4" readers they are using.
Hitcher06@reddit
In this thread, people literally missing the point
MiyuGreerCZ@reddit
This is perfect system of safety. I work on the apron at an airport myself and use this system at important moments. At home, I even point to the switches on the stove and oven when I leave after using them to make sure they are really off.
SpicyPanda23@reddit
Man this airline really doesn't want to have an accidental slide deployment 😂
Ok_Lime4124@reddit
None of them do lol. Super expensive mishap. I work for one of the legacy carriers in the US. Our training is extremely similar. Have to verbally remind yourself to “stop, think, and locate” before every arming or disarming/ opening. You are saying this to remind yourself of where the arming lever is and where you need it to be for the action you’re about to take. If you are disarming, you stop think and locate arming lever to make sure it IS in the armed position before touching it the proceed with disarming it, After you disarm it you point can call “arming lever is in disarmed position, disarmed placard is extended, panel lights are red” etc etc all your visual checks are said out loud just like this.
MobiusDie@reddit
Wow, they should fly planes.
I'm not being a smartass this is one of the best habits to have in the industry. Verbalize and physically point.
BugHuntHudson@reddit
I quietly do this before squeezing the trigger to refuel my car, especially as there's been a few vehicle changes lately!
kd8qdz@reddit
The danger of turning a checklist into a ritual is that you might just do the steps with out actually *doing* the steps.
SharkAttackOmNom@reddit
That’s why in nuclear power we place-keep. Any procedure involving component manipulations, we circle the step number, read the step, perform, then slash the step number.
The people who blaze it off and don’t do proper place-keeping are bound to end up in a conference room and a week unpaid leave
GuaranteeUnhappy3342@reddit
That is the point of the point (or touch). When you read ‘Landing Gear’ the other pilot points or touches the gear lights and handle and gives the appropriate response…’Gear Down and Locked, Four Green’ or if note so good…’Gear not down, Nose Gear Light Red’! The pointing or touching the lights, levers or instrument dial narrows and concentrates your attention.
Flying piston twins at about 500 agl I had my own routine and chant to my self and point ‘gear down, three green, final flaps set, mixtures rich, props forward and we are cleared too land 24 R. That was done after we had done the regular check list. Jets would lose the mixtures and in some aircraft you might arm spoilers or RTOP…what ever needed for one final check.
But pointing or touching really works !
alanalan426@reddit
As oppose to...?
Infinite-Condition41@reddit
Doing the steps on the checklist?
alanalan426@reddit
These steps are on their checklist tho.
Infinite-Condition41@reddit
Many such cases. Some resulting in death.
airwx@reddit
Are there many instances of that happening with point and call?
GuaranteeUnhappy3342@reddit
I might think they had a crew blow a slide in the jetway a few times?
Infinite-Condition41@reddit
Every regulation is written in blood.
uberduck@reddit
I feel there should be a Normal Door Open config check button, like the TO CONFIG button.
Rainyfeel@reddit
This makes me feel safe being in aircraft.
_Lord-Kinbote_@reddit
2-man concept. I like!
JetdocBram@reddit
Point and call! Yeah you know what they’ll never ever deploy a slide accidentally. I’m good with waiting a sec to open the door.
Jlx_27@reddit
Better safe than sorry.
IvanTheNotSoBad1@reddit
CROSS-CHECK!
SinisterSoren@reddit
Checklists are how we avoid human error. So many accidents happened because there either were no checklists for something or a checklist didnt get followed. Its great that they are following procedure so closely. It seems extra until you miss one step and everyone has a bad day.
MetaCalm@reddit
The fuck kind of saucery is this?
Awesome_coder1203@reddit
The safety and don’t kill people behind the door kind
rybosomiczny@reddit
Yep. It’s a door handle.
Jake24601@reddit
A sanity check.
pb_in_sf@reddit
Following the checklist like pros 👌
ilovebooks2468@reddit
I flew on a Hainan Airlines 787 from Boston to Beijing in 2014. They randomly upgraded my seat to business class! Still the best flight I've ever had
JimfromMayberry@reddit
Can anyone say which jet this is?
ysfsim@reddit
787
eternal_syrup@reddit
Yeah, just wait until something not on the checklist happens.