CFI canceled my takeoff due to flaps setting, now I’m grounded from solo flights
Posted by saltysnack9000@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 379 comments
We mostly fly during the summer. In winter, due to bad weather, we rarely get any flying done.
After the winter break, I started flying again. After about 5 hours of flying this season, one CFI signed me off as okay to start cross-country training. I already did my first solo last year and also flew solo again this year. I’ve practiced cross-country flights multiple times with a CFI to the airport I plan to fly to solo.
Last week, I flew with a different CFI than the one who gave OK for Solo Cross Country. Before the flight, I told him I wanted to go to that airport one more time before attempting it solo. This particular CFI is known for being very strict and by-the-book. He really emphasizes doing checklists exactly as written—no skipping steps, no changing the order, and no going back to re-check things after you’ve completed them. His philosophy is: do it right the first time.
With other CFIs, it’s more relaxed. They don’t mind if I set things up earlier or slightly out of order, as long as everything is completed properly before takeoff.
Knowing how strict this CFI is, I decided to follow the checklist exactly as written. Normally, I set the flaps to “start” early on and then confirm them again during the checklist. But this time, I didn’t do that, I waited and followed the checklist step by step.
I completed the checklist, made my radio call that I was taking off, and applied full power. While I was monitoring RPM, speed, and engine instruments, the CFI suddenly pulled the power, canceled the takeoff over the radio, and started shouting at me. I was honestly terrified and had no idea what went wrong.
He told me to taxi back to the apron, and then pointed out that the flaps were still set to “landing.” My heart dropped. Somehow, while trying to follow the checklist strictly in order, I completely missed that item. And because I knew he didn’t like re-checks, I didn’t go back to verify it before takeoff.
Now I’m not allowed to fly solo for a while—no idea how long.
I feel pretty shaken by the whole situation. I understand this was a serious mistake, but I’m also struggling with how it happened and how to move forward from here.
Pitiful_Stranger_679@reddit
Don’t fly with that guy again
SanAntonioSewerpipe@reddit
The not going back is the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do. If we get interrupted doing a checklist, we start over from the start.
Shadowinthesky@reddit
Even if I'm not interrupted and I finish the checklist. Sometimes I'll just look over everything again to makes sure. This instructor is teaching bad habits
kuped@reddit
CORRECTION: This instructor isn't teaching, he's evaluating when he should be teaching.
Avi8tor_Zeus@reddit
This! And absolutely “no yelling” in the cockpit unless you are about to die.
If the CFI saw something was wrong before the hold short line. Even if he knew what it was never should turned into an aborted take-off” and never proceeded past the hold short line.
I would request a different CFI.
Are you in the US under a 141 school?
jbm747@reddit
OMG THIS! No yelling in the cockpit during instruction. My dad was my initial instructor and is a screamer. At some point I just refused to fly with him, subsequently, anybody going down that path I immediately stated “You will not speak to me like that again, UNDERSTAND?” Really a hot button with me. As an instructor, as soon as you raise your voice, make a snide/crass comment, LEARNING STOPS. 🤦🏻♂️
Party-Room3822@reddit
Had one of those too. Learning shuts down, exit visas imminent and a change is in the wind for a new calmer instructor.
Equivalent-Pea6274@reddit
I seriously left a whole country over this
senorpoop@reddit
I have a distinct feeling the instructor wasn't actually yelling in the cockpit. Some students do not handle being talked to firmly very well. To be fair, some instructors don't do "calm" very well either.
AcePilot01@reddit
yeah firm strong wording can be considered yelling by a LOT. I have seen it when I am the one trying to instill something in someone, and believe me, I know when I yell lol.
People DO tend to use "yelling" a Little more broadly these days.
Avi8tor_Zeus@reddit
I’ve taught at FSI and many years ago the PP, Comm, Inst, CFI… I let my stuff expire but this posting has renewed my interest in instructing and plan to get re-certified. So thanks to the OP for asking and having the courage to ask!!
I’ve been yelled at while receiving instruction. Defining “yelling” as a voice raised above a normal conversation. I will not or cannot be forced to learn in that situation the first time. Maybe the 4th or 5th like in boot camp. Even then yelling was reserved for screwing up and the instructor made sure we understood why? We screwed up!
I have found yelling has no place to learn something in the cockpit. If you fail a check ride. As a DE, there is no yelling only reasons for the failure and you better follow-up with instruction!
If you want to argue semantics or definitions? fine. I will agree with what you said… just to get my point across the OP maybe over reacted (too sensitive?) but my post are for the instructor under reacted to the situation by yelling and then providing no instruction or suggestions for the student to learn proper checklist procedure EVEN though the other instructors checklist procedure methodology sucked when those pilots are more likely to land gear up instead of the “yelling” instructors methodology for strict procedures. His mindset is not wrong! It’s his delivery.
CaptainBarkleyBear@reddit
^^^^ this. I was in the Marine Corps infantry for about 6 years. When I started flying I really loved and embraced the calm, professional and focused attitudes of pilots. Flying demands it. As a CFI I maintain that attitude. Instructing is NOT a job where you yell. If someone wants a job where yelling is involved I can find them their nearest Marine Corps recruiter
Shadowinthesky@reddit
Makes me think the instructor mightn't have realised til the end and had an oh shit moment. If they caught it earlier on you'd imagine their reaction would be more tame
Avi8tor_Zeus@reddit
Here’s the rub… who is the PIC? Not the student. The CFI is so you don’t blame the student for your “oh shit!” moment.
AcePilot01@reddit
Is he though? he wasn't OP's original instructor, and was getting a check over in a way, so I mean maybe he was really just evaluation, whereas the other CFI would be the one teaching. And if you are evaluating, being more by the book is prob better.
CaptJellico@reddit
Completely agree. OP should "fire" that CFI and stick with the other CFI.
s1xpack@reddit
Sure because skipping over flap setting, trying to t/o and blaming the FI is much better than to check for the root cause.
Airjerm49@reddit
True. Then terrifying his/her students to the point of confidence shattering. These types of CFI’s should be rooted out and fired.
Lokshom9@reddit
Correction - IP is evaluating if the student can fly solo safely. What if the student went solo and did not retract flaps before taking off? IP is responsible for the student as they endorsed for that solo. I agree being screamed at was uncalled for but again “law of intensity” may have been used to teach a lesson to not takeoff with flaps full.
kuped@reddit
The CFI probably missed the configuration himself until the takeoff roll was started (nice checklist discipline on HIS part), so he missed a training opportunity, unnecessarily cancelled a flight, shorted the school the money for aircraft rental, and screwed himself out of 1.5 instructor hours. Not only a poor instructor, but an incompetent businessman.
GryphonGuitar@reddit
This. If you lose your place, you start over. If there's doubt, there's no doubt.
Urrolnis@reddit
Proper checklist discipline is not well taught. The philosophy behind checklist design, the different techniques behind using them (and how they're designed for each technique), and how to properly do them, is not well taught.
It amazes me how when I'd do stage checks for other instructors' students and they wouldn't use checklists at all.
Dry-Engineering1776@reddit
That’s insane. Kinda scary to think about
Urrolnis@reddit
General aviation is really strange in how it gives lip service to a strong safety culture and then just kinda... ignores it? No matter how much we try to beat this stuff into the next generation of pilots, they still end up hazardous-attitude-ing their way into make the same mistakes over and over again.
It turns out that it takes a hell of a lot more than a few hours of in person ground time, the King Ground School, and 40 hours of flying, to make safe and COMPETENT pilots.
hellswaters@reddit
Honestly, one thing that I hate seeing is for the written test prep, everyone going to the online prep, memorizing the answers, then thinking they are great because they aced it.
That's not learning the theory and how it applies. That's just basic memorization. And doesn't make you a competent pilot.
Urrolnis@reddit
Unfortunately the writtens are junk in the US anyway. Memorize by rote to pass the test, then actually learn materials.
I can read a VOR/HSI whatever but if you give me a chart of 10 of them and put an airplane on a map, my brain just can't do it. I'm gonna end up just guessing anyway. The lack of situational awareness messes me up on those questions.
Calculating time zones going on a flight... why? Crap like that.
Memorize, pass, move on.
If the writtens were actually asking good questions, I'd be more apt to take them seriously.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
Amen.
Busy-Eye-3985@reddit
Ive often thought that.
Ive noticed it a bunch on runups. We always teach 175 max, 50 in between for drop. If its outside of those limits we dont go. But when there is a drop over 175, and we dont go, I have people telling me "If its a hot day its ok if it goes over 175 max drop.
Whats the point of us ingraining those limits in students if we ignore them anyway.
Urrolnis@reddit
Show me in ANY manual that says that. Maybe it exists in the maintenance books or something. But we can't just accept word of mouth on this stuff, because then we end up doing things just because the last guy said to with no understanding of WHY.
Busy-Eye-3985@reddit
Its so annoying when I tell my students that and they tell me their last instructor said that its ok. Like no bro, its not ok. Those limits exist for a reason.
s1xpack@reddit
Well reading between the lines and from my CFI experience: I doubt there is a problem with restarting. The description leads me (in 9/10 cases) to working sloppy with the checklist, because he skipped over something instead of checking it. ALSO he was solo in the plane so going back would be unidentifiable for the FI.
GryphonGuitar@reddit
If he was solo, how did the CFI pull power?
s1xpack@reddit
Uhh I misread.
Nevertheless, he skipped part of the checklist and (also a lesson) I do not care about external factors I redo the checklist. In some situations I will induce stress on my students (when I am IN the cockpit) to see (and show them) what workload does.
cchurchcp@reddit
The CFI on the ground keeps a really long string tied to the throttle just in case.
74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit
Came to say this but it's already been said. Not going back to double check is anti-ethical to TEM - threat and error management.
autonym@reddit
*antithetical (contrary, against the thesis), not anti-ethical (corrupt, immoral)
74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit
Thanks, I'm not very smart but I didn't think it looked right XD
autonym@reddit
Nah, you're smart enough to be an ATP, and smart enough to welcome new knowledge. That puts you well ahead of most of us. :)
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
I’m going to bet that OP misunderstood what this CFI he is flying with the first time does for checklists.
russellvt@reddit
It took me a couple of read-throughs of that sentence for me to try to decipher what you were trying to say, here. (no offense - the dangling articles were confusing to me)
LigerSixOne@reddit
That, and re-doing critical phase of flight checklists multiple times is absolutely appropriate.
Lopoetve@reddit
And if anything - ever - feels off, run the damn thing again. And again. And again - till it feels right.
Party-Room3822@reddit
He (CFI) could have handled that much better.
Rejecting the takeoff offered a return taxi to run up area and a discission during taxi as to why he rejected the takeoff in a MUCH calmer, educating manner. You then can repeat the checklist properly and to his satisfaction. You are learning, so have him teach and not shout his corrections. Things can be missed after breaks in training and it is up to the CFI to point them out when missed and not ground you for a minor infraction. Failing this switch to another calmer- less anal CFI who knows how to teach.
Flightle@reddit
Getting “yelled” at for almost anything in flight instruction is uncalled for. You shouldn’t be fearing the reaction or outburst of your flight instructor. If it would make you more comfortable, get a new one. I know it’s tough to be confrontational but it’s expensive, adult level training and should advocate for yourself. You got this.
imapilotaz@reddit
I mean taking off with landing flaps in some planes can absolutely lead to a fatal accident.
Jjudging by how the OP describes how he (bizzarely) does checlists, i assume it wasnt be berated but more sternly.
And OPs method of randomly doing checlists, not in a flow or verbatim is going to get someone killed. His CFI needs retraining if hes letting a PPL student just make up checklists and hope he gets everything.
Fluffy-Mud-8945@reddit
Taking off with full flaps can kill you. Even if it's survivable in your plane and at your airport/conditions, it removes all your margin for error or mechanical failure.
I don't know who the OTHER CFI was, but a student who can't do a takeoff checklist should not be soloing cross country.
I'm with the "meanie" CFI. Do the checklist. Don't miss any items. That's why it's a checklist. It's insane to me that "Do the checklist, don't miss any items" would rattle a pilot. If you have to do the checklist 2 or 3 times to get to every item, you weren't doing the checklist.
OP needs to learn how to do a checklist or get out of the air. CFI might have saved OP's life.
These other comments saying "who cares about checklists" and "ditch that meanie CFI, get a nice guy who will pass you" are insane.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
I don't care what I was doing, if a CFI yelled at me during PPL training, I'd have dropped them like a hot coal.
It's not about being nice; it's about being a fucking adult in control of your emotions.
The rest about checklist is up for argument regarding checklist methodology and stage of training.
Fluffy-Mud-8945@reddit
It sounds like the CFI was incredibly in control of their emotions. They did everything in the correct order: Kill the power, abort the takeoff, communicate with the tower. Only after doing all of that (according to the OP, who is freaking out and unable to recall what was said) OP claims that the CFI "shouted". CFI also explains to the pilot flying to taxi back to the apron, and explains what went wrong.
Really, your entire problem is that the CFI "shouted". In a plane with the engine running.
I don't know what the CFI said, if they were unprofessional in their criticism or not. OP was freaking out too much to remember what was going on. At the end of the day, OP tried to take off without doing the takeoff checklist. That's insane. I would hope the CFI dressed them down.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
If only there was someone else around that was already in the cockpit.
Maybe the CFI whispered. Maybe he wrote a polite note. Doesn't really matter to me, I wasn't there.
I said if a CFI yelled at me during PPL training, that I would drop them immediately.
I'm a full grown adult. I don't need to be yelled at. And I consider someone raising their voice in an emotional way to either not be in control of their emotions, or to be willing to berate me with anger in a way that is wildly unprofessional.
AcePilot01@reddit
Lol, sure that's totally unbiased from OP. /s
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
I was in the military.
This is very debatable, unless you went in real late.
This isn't a conversation, friendo. I'm in my 40s and I am well aware of how flying works. I don't need someone to yell at me to prove a point; calm adult communication works in anything but a direct emergency.
I work in leading edge aerospace usually with materials, processes, and substances that can kill you very, very quickly - or worse, you can set it up so the person behind you dies quickly. Rocket test stands are unforgiving. Nobody at my work yells to teach someone something.
If you need to be yelled at I guess cool for you.
I'll stick to people that have control over their emotions.
AcePilot01@reddit
You assume I am much younger than you? I went in in 2006, but I am sure you maybe a few years earlier. But probably 10 or less then. But if you can't take that then you have an ego. Frankly to me, it means nothing if someone yells at me, depending on the circumstances. I don't get smug just because someone may get worked up esp if they are in the right, regardless of age.
I am just saying, get over it buddy.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
No, expecting people to be emotionally regulated enough in an adult learning environment does not mean I have an ego. It doesn't make me smug. It means I expect adult professionals to act like adult professionals.
Yeah, I would. I wouldn't piss myself or cry or scream or yell back. I would just immediately RTB and fire the intructor on the spot. I'm not gonna pay someone to yell at me.
I had 11 different CFIs I flew with; not a single one of them yelled at me.
...my dude, I dunno how to tell you this. If you raise your voice in anger at a job, you have issues you really need to sort out.
AcePilot01@reddit
None of this is in reference to anger, do you remember how they would raise their voice at you in Boot camp? Ie, training? some have mental and emotional fortitude, other's don't I guess.
If it was anger, especially for no reason, sure. That's ridiculous. If you almost got you and him killed, him being a bit more firm, direct and louder, like NO NO don't do that, you almost killed us, do NOT do that again, etc. That's not the same as.
"WHAT THE FUCK WHERE YOU THINKING YOU DAMN IDIOT, YOU DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN"
Perhaps our definition of yelling in this context is different.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
...ahahaha yeah if a CFI yelled at me, calling me an idiot, that would get them fired on the spot.
Again, I work in a very dangerous environment with high energetic fluids, combustibles, and high pressure cryo liquids. There are absolutely times where if I mess something up, I'll never know because I'll be dead before I figure it out.
Nobody yells (unless it's a warning).
Weird how professionals can be professional.
(Also being in a Cessna and taking off with full flaps is unlikely to kill anyone, and they didn't even accelerate to rotation speed. Nobody was in any immediate danger. Which doesn't matter, because that's not even what I'm talking about).
AcePilot01@reddit
It absolutely does, and has.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
Got the NTSB report on that?
AcePilot01@reddit
Sure:
http://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/192510/pdf
This one he did retract it, but was far too late (was already high AOA)
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/49380/pdf
Another.
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103536/pdf Ish, but contributing. But if you have full flaps and apply full power you REAAAAAAAAAAAALLY have to push forward, and MAYBE depending on factors may not have enough control to maintain level flight while retracting. In this case, they were stuck, but full flaps nonetheless.
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/66622/pdf prob also close enough.
And more so... student: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/66622/pdf
I am bored now, but feel free to look for more to satisfy your doubt.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
So I'm not gonna argue how much each of these apply to what I mean; the ones I looked at didn't.
You can absolutely take off of a normal runway at full flaps in a 172, it's not a death sentence. It can be a cause of crash particularly on a short runway or a touch and go, but it's not "oh once you hit rotation speed, you're pretty much dead".
Has it been a factor in some accidents, yeah. Not really the "taking off with a CFI from a full stop" kind and at least one of those you linked was "oh no 10 percent flaps like the book says" but sure.
AcePilot01@reddit
Taking off with full flaps can kill, nothing more to discuss, you doubted it. I proved it. The end.
AcePilot01@reddit
Hmm, no reply? lol
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
...my dude I don't live on reddit. I check it in the morning and usually don't touch it again, and not every morning.
Fluffy-Mud-8945@reddit
Reread what OP wrote and stop projecting your own insecurity.
AcePilot01@reddit
I wouldn't mind flying with people like you. :)
multypass@reddit
The CFI let the student taxi past the hold short line and apply takeoff power with an incorrect flap setting. The CFI wasn’t paying attention, and that’s a failure on the CFI’s part. The CFI trapped the errors by aborting the takeoff, and at that point should have held off any sort of debrief until the plane was parked and they were back inside the FBO. It sounds like adrenaline was flowing and everyone needed to calm down. Get some water, take a break, smoke a cig, whatever is needed to regain control of one’s emotion, then debrief what happened in a neural environment. Only then can learning occur.
AcePilot01@reddit
If a CFI yelled at me, I would realize it was because I fucked up, and I would correct it. Although I was in the military and I realize where that comes from. It's a life or death situation, even if flying is fun. People can AND DO die. it's not like you are learning chemistry in a classroom. 2 different functions of learning.
I doubt they yell if you are doing things correctly. Just saying. If you ever watched that movie whiplash, it's split. People that demand excellence, even of themselves, will take that, and it requires that kind of thing to be the best. So frankly it burns a memory in you that it was a fuck up, And you will correct it or keep it. FOR SOME sure, they can't take it, but those people tend to never be the best at something.
And while I know I will never be the best at most things, I TRY to be as good as possible, and so for me at least, that wouldn't scare me. But I have a strong stomach I guess and I take flying and safety VERY seriously.
russellvt@reddit
In all fairness, we hear that the "CFI yelled at them" from OP, we might still question what actually transpired, or "how." Some people may over-use a phrase such as "yell" to really indicate "a stern admonishing," or similar. It's hearsay.
At the same time, it's important that OP strove to find an instructor who is able to communicate and teach them, more on their level. This "new" CFI's manners and methods are likely not "the best" for them... so, they should find another one.
Grayhawk845@reddit
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm no master of aviation after all. But don't we normally double check everything? Tower gives clearance or instructions, we read it back. I know in commercial if the pic puts the flaps down, the copilot double checks and confirms. If there's an engine fire. Before extinguishing the pilot calls out "engine one fire extinguisher?" Puts his hand on the appropriate control the copilot looks, reads back and confirms.
So where exactly is double checking yourself frowned upon in aviation?
Wasatcher@reddit
I got rushed by tower on a stop and go in a DA-20 during my PPL. Took off with landing flaps instead of takeoff. DPE saw me scanning for the problem when I couldn't make Vy and knew something was amiss. She smiled, pointed at the flaps switch, and said "We're still climbing, just more slowly. Don't let ATC rush you into making mistakes. You're PIC". She still passed me.
Select_Respond_8627@reddit
TBH, that should have been a bust.
Wasatcher@reddit
While I appreciate your opinion, that's why DPEs have discretion. If everything else besides one little thing is in standards, they feel you're a safe pilot that owns their mistakes and learns from them... You don't have to be perfect on a checkride. She said she let it slide because everything else was solid, and ATC was barking at me to expedite.
Select_Respond_8627@reddit
I’m sorry misconfiguring the plane that badly should be a bust on PA.IV.A.R6, PA.IV.A.S1, and PA.IV.A.S12 from the ACS.
I know students who busted on this exact issue and it’s a valid bust.
In any case it’s in the past, just do not diminish how serious that error can be, if you’re a CFI use it as a teaching moment for your students.
Wasatcher@reddit
I'm not diminishing the seriousness at all. I own it and certainly use it as a teaching moment with my students. The DPE used it as a teaching moment herself about not letting ATC pressure you into making mistakes. I'm thankful for the grace.
dylanm312@reddit
I may be wrong, but it sounds like OK prefers the “do-check” checklist method (do everything from memory, then go back and double check using the checklist) and this instructor prefers the “read-do” method (do each item one by one, reading line by line off the checklist as you go).
Both are valid and have the same outcome if used properly. The “do-check” method is faster once you get familiar with the checklists and is perfectly safe, IF you do the “check” part correctly. Sounds like OPs eyes just skimmed over that item.
The thing that is alarming is the instructors aversion to double checking critical items before takeoff. I would not fly with someone with that attitude. Every time I get my takeoff clearance (bear in mind this is after I’ve performed and verified the appropriate checklists), I quickly do one last floor to door flow (fuel selector, flaps, mixture, carb heat, transponder, lights, master, mags, primer) before entering the runway. Takes all of 5-10 seconds and could save my life someday.
Any instructor who is actively advocating against double and triple checking critical safety items is a hazard to aviation, in my opinion.
dirtbikekid27@reddit
I do the normal checklist, then before takeoff do "Lights are on, Camera is on (XPDR), Action, which is electric fuel pump, full mixture, fullest tank, primer in and locked, flaps as required" In my plane 1 notch is actually normal takeoff procedure.
burnheartmusic@reddit
Fair, but do-check is not how a new student should be doing it. Yes new as in has not done solo xc yet.
dylanm312@reddit
Ah yep, missed that detail. Agreed that at this point in their training they should still be doing read-do. Hell I’m about to take my instrument checkride and I still use read-do for the runup and before takeoff checklists out of habit.
burnheartmusic@reddit
I’m a cfi and still do read do. It’s easy to think you got it, and forget a little piece
imapilotaz@reddit
I did accident investigations way in my past. Of the like 40 i did, not a single one wasnt pilot error. Flows are good but its easy to miss something if distracted.
Urrolnis@reddit
Flows are good if the plane is set up for it, too. A Cirrus has good enough cockpit ergonomics to make it viable. A C-172 or PA-28 with multiple generations of avionics slapped into whatever place it will fit in the panel does not work well for flows.
southern-springs@reddit
Yeah, The point with flows like GUMPSS is that you can regualrly do them a multiple times during a flight (or phase of flight) and double, triple, and quadruple check before and/or after a traditional checklist is used depending on the situation.
Three things effecting safety here are:
It sounds like the OP isn’t being disciplined enough with their use of checklists and the backup CFI noticed this. His normal CFI is failing him here.
Howevee, backup CFI should be flexible enough to accommodate students who have learned something different (but valid) than the way he teaches. One way to do that would be to say, “hey when you are with me this is how we are going to do it. You can set everything up first, but then I’m going to need you to go item by item. Before we call tower. It’s how I’ve always done things and makes me feel safe. It will be a great exercise in how we are always learning new things in aviation and how critical checklist adherence is the safe thing to do.”
It sounds like the flight school isn’t teaching checklist usage in a coordinated way. Teaching do-check and read-do are both valid, but letting a student get confused like this also on the chief pilot. The CFIs need to be on the same page as to what is acceptable and what is not, or they shouldn’t be working with eachother’s students.
Avi8tor_Zeus@reddit
Brazen or not. An instructor should not yell or raise his voice. When learning to fly there is plenty of things to happen that can fill your underwear!
I am assuming the flaps are at landing for the preflight portion of the walk around never should have left the parking area.
This is a series of bad instructors with a student learning bad habits that will haunt the pilot well into his/her profession.
Granite_burner@reddit
It certainly sounds like the instructor played “GOTCHA!” by letting the takeoff roll start and then blowing up at the student when he (instructor) doubtless knew the flap setting was incorrect all along.
He probably wanted to make a big impression about the severity of the infraction.
Unfortunately OP missed the point and focused on the severity of the reaction.
So instructor’s strategy didn’t work. Without getting in to debating who is more wrong perhaps there would have been a better way to handle it?
I’m thinking the instructor could have, as they started to pull onto the runway, simply said “check your flaps”. When student discovers problem, instructor calmly explains “that’s because you blew the checklist. We need to make sure you didn’t miss anything else. Go back to parking, tie down, and start all over again.” Maybe that would’ve been a better way to make the point.
Avi8tor_Zeus@reddit
I agree totally with a better way to handle the moment. Now how to fix a psychological impairment in learning? This totally on the instructor.
ApolloDomICT@reddit
We are just getting OP’s take on the situation. Not saying the version of events posted isn’t what happened, but there is another side.
There are definitely bad instructors. But, there is also a lot in this post that doesn’t add up. Instructor is strict on checklists, but OP missed at least 2 different checklist items regarding flaps, one following the preflight and another before takeoff.
Illustrious-Run3591@reddit
For many people, a gentle correction and reprimand can quickly escalate to abuse and harassment in their imagination. Not saying that is the case for OP, but when someone starts claiming things like that it's sensible to question their motives.
Fauropitotto@reddit
There's two angles to this. If an adult is so emotionally fagile that they're getting bothered by getting "yelled" at, they lack the maturity to be in the seat.
Comfort is never a prerequisite for effective learning. I'd even argue that stress inoculation should be a necessary part of any critical training.
The second part of course is for OP to stand up for themselves. If they lack the maturity to be confrontational, to stand up for themselves, then they lack the critical decision making skills they'll need in the cockpit. They can't make the hard decisions on the ground, they won't be capable of making them in the air as PIC.
Failure to handle emotional stress and failure to be confrontation gets pilots killed.
Urrolnis@reddit
Uhhhh.... what?
tomdoc@reddit
You’re just a bully offloading responsibility for bullying behaviours by telling your victims to toughen up
Fauropitotto@reddit
Sounds like you're completely oblivious to the research around stress inoculation in medicine. But sure, the perpetual victim game can be entertaining too in some circles.
tomdoc@reddit
Stress inoculation can be achieved without screaming at people and belittling them which safety data shows increases patient safety incidents and education data shows inhibits learners from asking questions.
THevil30@reddit
As I always say, the I am the customer and the CFI is providing a service. If the cashier at KMart yells at me, that’s unacceptable. If a CFI yells at me, that’s unacceptable.
Conversely, I’m a lawyer by trade and if I yell at my clients (no matter how fucking stupid they are being) that’s also unacceptable.
Fauropitotto@reddit
If I'm with someone and they're doing something or about to do something that could get us both killed, I'm totally okay with yelling.
Neither your cashier at KMart or your client across a desk comes close to the same high-stakes situation in the cockpit.
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
Let’s be real, yelling only makes a situation like that worse.
A simple “my controls” is all that’s needed. Yelling only confuses the student, and makes it more likely they do something they shouldn’t.
THevil30@reddit
Yes, I said this more fulsomely but your CFI can react brusquely to an imminent emergency. I’m referring to the yelling in the debrief.
Akland23@reddit
If you're an adult who is too emotionally immature to be unable to get their point across without yelling, then you don't belong in teaching.
Like you said, failure to handle emotional stress gets pilots killed. That instructors failed to handle their emotional stress.
Meanee@reddit
It still happens tho.
My DPE, during briefing, told me to make a full stop landing at an airport along the route. Talking to the tower I said that. He just blew the fuck up. “Why the fuck did you tell them a full stop? I want a fucking goddamn touch and go!!! You can’t be this stupid?”
Yeah. I failed that one. I chose not to argue. During the retake, he was the chillest dude ever. Wtf.
CZ-Czechmate@reddit
I would have the made a full stop, declared him a safety to your flight operation and removed him from the plane and left him there. NO time for that BS!
adam493555@reddit
Amen. There's no place in aviation for people who think verbally abusing a student is remotely close to a good teaching strategy. It instills fear based reactions, not respect based ones. The difference, especially in safety related situations, is profound. It's perfectly possible to convey the gravity of a poor decision to a student without losing one's shit. One can communicate that they are absolutely dead serious without any loss of composure.
I've had exactly one similar experience in the past. Self reflection afterward lead to adjusting my personal minimums to me cancel a future flight if something like that were to come up ever again.
I've learned to treat people like the weather. You can't control the weather, but when it's bad you don't go fly right into it. You can't control other people's outbursts, but you can control whether or not you continue sitting next to them in an airplane.
keenly_disinterested@reddit
Can't emphasize this enough. There is already enough to be afraid of when learning to fly, the LAST thing you should be afraid of is your instructor. It's your effing money, don't give it to someone who isn't providing the service you are paying for.
Moose135A@reddit
Like someone who doesn't teach you the proper way to follow a checklist?
zangler@reddit
I started whenever I was 14 (30 years ago) and most of my instructors were kind...a couple were not and it did have a big impact on me at the time.
PrestigiousFee7072@reddit
I know what you mean,had similar experience with cfi's don't really bhet what they believe that the value is in doing this on the other hand they are human vto, could vbevvhevwas just startled vasbyou and, bremembe he's bin board there with you, when you park that thing nose first in the mud.
Have you considered learning ' flows' instead of doing read- and -do,that is how hairliners do it, doing a flow multiple times a day every day will make it stuck in your brain, and m if you then make a mistake,but will immediately feel 'off' and then you can take out that checklist to double check every step
Acrobatic_Recipe7837@reddit
Get gud
acey376@reddit
Name him and I’ll make sure he doesn’t get hired at this legacy airline. That behavior is the exact opposite of good CRM and threat and error management. We don’t need shouting and berating on our flight decks. Ever!
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit
Doesn’t like you to recheck???
My company confirms flap settings 5 times before we even taxi out.
“Flaps 8, After Start Checklist” “CLT 36R, Flaps 8, Taxi Checklist” “Slats/Flaps verify 8 degrees required, indicating” “Takeoff data verify CLT 36R, Flaps 8, 70k pounds, V1…” “CLT 36R, Flaps 8, Taxi Checklist complete”
boster101@reddit
Canadian PPL student here, not sure if it’s a Canadian/US thing or if I’m missing something. What is Flaps Takeoff and Flaps landing? Is landing 30 degrees? Landings can be done in all sort of different flap variations
Upstairs-North7683@reddit
Not being allowed to go back and recheck things is a big red flag because that's how mistakes are avoided. Time to fire that CFI
ufront@reddit
You've learned you don't work well with this CFI. It doesn't serve your education ever fly with him again. Hell, don't even talk to him again.
Bowzy228@reddit
Your before takeoff checklist doesn’t have “flaps set”? I’m confused here. What kind of airplane are we talking about? And YES you absolutely HAVE to follow the checklist in order. I’m sure the CFI was shaken too, that’s why he seems frustrated. His certificate and life was on the line. You just need some more duel given and you should be fine. Learn from it and move on. I’m sure you’ll never make that mistake again and I’m glad nothing crazy happened. Keep your head up.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
I'm pretty sure I know what happened here. If this is a C172, he probably lowered them with the battery on during preflight. Most people, sensible people, would raise them again before they turn the battery off. But there are a small group of people who always leave them down after preflight, and then retract them at some point during start or run up.
OP's story is exactly why I never allow that when I'm flying. Anything worth doing is worth doing as soon as you can so you don't forget.
dylanm312@reddit
I was taught not to raise the flaps before starting because the flap motor is a big drain on the battery, so for optimal starting performance, it's better to wait to raise the flaps till the engine is running. But it's part of my after start flow: check oil pressure, avionics on, mixture leaned, flaps up.
wandering-audi@reddit
All the 152/172 checklists that I’ve seen have “flaps up” as part of the start or after start checklist. I see no reason to turn the plane back on after run up just to put flaps up before starting the plane. Never been any issue for me. We all can make a small mistake but try to be intentional and make sure you double check every item. Especially before take off. Probably the most important of all the checklists
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
You don't have to turn it back on, you just raise the flaps before you turn it off. You have to walk around to check the lights anyway, so check the flaps while you do that.
wandering-audi@reddit
Yeah I guess you can do that. I was always told to leave the battery on without the engine running as little as possible. Especially if the plane hasn’t flown in a few days
Bowzy228@reddit
I also put some some of the blame on the other instructors who let him get away with sloppy checklist usage. The law of primacy applies there.
I totally agree with what you. My flight school has added extra items to the generic checklist to avoid scenarios like this and things like forgetting to remove chalks.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
Yea this is something that could be solved by standardization or a checklist item. It sounds like it may be the case that the incident instructor is the odd man out on this one. But regardless, this should have been a simple learning opportunity, not an emotional meltdown.
Leading-Angle64@reddit
I agree with u.
TweeKINGKev@reddit
I have next to no knowledge in how it should be done but I’d be sure that double checking is something that wouldn’t be frowned upon.
Sorry to hear that but this CFI being so strict and against double checking sounds like a pilot in training under this person is a plane accident waiting to happen.
Aviator91990@reddit
That’s a pretty big oops to be fair. Sounds like your checklist sucks too or you missed the flaps setting item at least twice. Not sure what you are flying but all the checklists I’ve used have flaps up after startup and then during pre take off check the setting again.
deer_god11@reddit
"No going back to recheck things after you've completed them." Is a massive red flag.
CptnWildBillKelso@reddit
The new cfi is the one that will save your life.
People have died from skipping checklist items.
People have died from taking off with full flaps.
Thank him for doing a good job and stop using cfi’s who let you be sloppy.
Mediocre_Paramedic22@reddit
If he doesn’t like you rechecking things, tell him he cannot fly with you. You do what is safe and makes you comfortable. Double checking is almost never a bed thing.
LikenSlayer@reddit
I'm willing to bet my left testicle that your original CFI saw something during the course of flying with you that might need a second opinion.
So he asked around, found a CFI, and tactically gave you the opportunity to shine. Or prove him right. There's nothing wrong with that. That means he cares about you and your aviation success. Both CFI's sound great in my book. Minus the yelling part.
Very few times will you need to yell or make fast last-minute decisions in aviation. If it's warranted, it's because you'll most likely not have a chance to tell about it.
Trust the process, & learn from it. But I would suggest you talk to that CFI & let him know how the yelling shook you up. Yelling has a tendency to hold people back from asking questions in a learning environment.
Ok-Needleworker-2797@reddit
I have my stage one check with another instructor from my school next weekend prior to being allowed to solo, and reading this kind of thread makes me stressed haha.
Urrolnis@reddit
Stage checks are a different beast. Even if not required in Part 61 training, I'd send my students up with another instructor both pre-solo and pre-checkride as a "sanity check" to see if there was anything I missed or anything I wasn't seeing.
What the user you responded to is saying is that sometimes you don't need confirmation a student IS ready, but confirmation that a student ISN'T ready or is dangerous.
In the thread OP's example, perhaps the original instructor said "Hey, there's something off about how the student organizes the cockpit or runs checklists and misses stuff or does things weird, can you give me your thoughts?"
Your stage check is normal. The OP's may not be.
jedensuscg@reddit
My school required us to get stage checks with one of the Chief CFI's specifically to get signed off.
Ok-Needleworker-2797@reddit
Pray for my soul it’s next Sunday morning lol
Urrolnis@reddit
You'll be okay, these are pretty standard. A second set of eyes is a great way to ensure a student is set up for success. Lots of instructors can become "blind" to their own techniques and the habits that their students have, and a state check is an easy way to ensure you're safe and have met all the standards of the ACS.
DonWop1@reddit
With other CFIs, it’s more relaxed. They don’t mind if I set things up earlier or slightly out of order, as long as everything is completed properly before takeoff.
Well checklists should be done in order… this is why you started to takeoff with an improper flap setting. Should you have been “yelled at”? No.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
Not sure I totally agree with this, but I understand the concept of "the checklist says to do item 1. Do item 1. Then the checklist says to do item 2. Do item 2."; the thing is for a lot of steps in a lot of checklists, aside from "I followed the checklist", there are a lot of steps that the exact order isn't going to make a big difference.
And then there is the very real question of doing item 1, 3, then 2, then looking at the checklist and calling off that you did item 1, 2, then 3. If those 3 need to be done before (something else), but it doesn't matter which exact order they're being done?
zerodarkshirty@reddit
Isn’t the point that doing them in order removes an opportunity to get confused?
“Ok I’ll do number 1, then I’ll randomly do number 5, guess I’ll do 2 now, then 9 because I like 9, then I already did 5 so I’ll go back to 6, then 7, then 8, already done 9, cool, checklist complete”
DonnerPartyPicnic@reddit
I think the important part is doing everything in order UNTIL you have an understanding of and know the checklist, then you can establish more of a flow. That's what's taught on my part of the mil side at least, so my student and I aren't getting heat stroke in a 140 degree cockpit as they fumble their way through line by line. Know what needs to be started in what order to get the jet up and running, and fill in the rest as you go.
blacksheepcannibal@reddit
I think there might be a bit of a difference in checklist length and complexity between a PA-28 and a T-45, but I agree that sticking closely to the checklist until you understand it makes a lot of sense.
A lot of the way I think has to do with the wildly different experience I got in flight training than most people, and it's really really hard to step away from that.
DonnerPartyPicnic@reddit
Its not that difficult, takes about 5-8 minutes to jump in and get out of the line if you're proficient. But it does ramp up when you move on in the pipeline.
Moist-Chemical@reddit
Doing stuff out of order isn’t a big deal most of the time, the problem is OP just blatantly missed an item. He should probably verbally confirm stuff if he already isn’t.
HJSDGCE@reddit
This. While some things should be done in order for obvious reasons (such as starting with the battery and radio), others aren't as important and far more flexible. When you're flying with 2-3 different instructors and they all have their own ways of doing the checklist (and flying techniques), the most important point is to make sure everything is checked rather than what order.
To me, one of the best ways to hammer the importance of an item is to explain what happens when you don't do it. In this case, incorrect or insufficient flaps settings means your takeoff is so much shallower, which can cause obstacle collisions.
kiwi_love777@reddit
Agreed.
OP is still a student and needs structure- I’m all for CFI’s letting students screw up here and there so they learn. And I’m guessing this CFI caught the landing flap setting probably during run up and wanted to see if OP would correct himself.
We had a student who didn’t set his flaps properly in a cirrus he had purchased after he got his PPL- the guy rolled probably 5k feet before he realized it.
He (like OP here) will probably never forget to check his flap settings again.
Learning9876@reddit
Most airlines do a flow, then back it up with checklists with a few exceptions where checklists can be, but don’t necessarily have to be to do lists, such as terminating the airplane. If you learned via flows and then backing everything up with a checklist it can be difficult to switch to checklists becoming to do lists. Maybe ask your primary CFI for a formal flow, then follow that with the checklist. The only exception is if the school has a policy of using them as to do lists, then you might be stuck doing it that way. But be pro active and ask for a formal flow if that is how you want to do it, you will probably be soloing in no time if you take the initiative.
Additional_Bug_2823@reddit
We all understand the problem but we don't know the aircraft. It would help if you identified the aircraft on which you set "landing flaps".
Possible_Salad_7695@reddit
Remember Sully? APU start was almost last on a checklist and if it was followed line by line everyone would have died. Know your aircraft and systems, do your flows, and verify with a checklist prior to committing to the action. That’s why they say prior to (action) checklist. Just remember what conditions must be met to accomplish a checklist item then do it for the reason it’s on the checklist to begin with.
You messed yourself up by changing for someone else’s expectations.
Professional_Mud6436@reddit
W for the CFI in my book. I would send checklists home with my students to chair fly and study for homework. Lazy checklist usage is a lazy/dangerous pilot. Study up and try again. Take the mistake, learn from it, and move on. Nothing to get shaken up about amigo
msct1835@reddit
Your CFI sounds like a total tool. Negative teaching. It is always acceptable to go back and restart the checklist.
Make sure that you NEVER fly with this bellend again.
Ok_Tale7071@reddit
I’d find a new CFI
89inerEcho@reddit
dumbest thing I ever heard. If you were a repeat offender, I could see trying to 'make a point' but this seems over the top.
For the record, there are a handful of things I intentionally have repeated on multiple checklists. One of them is flaps
Flyward_Aerospace@reddit
That's rough but a CFI catching a missed flap setting before you rotated is exactly what they're there for. Take the grounding as a reset, not a punishment - checklist discipline sticks a lot harder after a moment like this than after a hundred clean flights tbh.
Obvious_Advisor_2407@reddit
Sounds like you need a new CFI.
AcePilot01@reddit
I think by the book is better... I would be MORE weary of a CFI that cuts corners. Sure it's easier, but just saying.
TheDrunkNewGuy@reddit
Yelling in the cockpit is never necessary or productive.
Flavor_Nukes@reddit
I'm confused by your usage of checklists.
There is 'read-and-do' and 'flow and check'. There's no real right or wrong way of doing it, but based on your post, I'm not sure you're using them correctly. It seems this CFI likes a more 'read-and-do' style of checklist usage, and you didn't follow said checklist.
Frederf220@reddit
I call them checklists and procedures. You do procedures and confirm with checklists. They're two different things. If you're "reading and doing" then it's not a checklist, it's a procedure.
Obviously you can make the same piece of paper do both jobs but it still is two jobs and they're distinct.
Ari179@reddit
Who made you the authority? Read and do are exact descriptions of checklists at all major US airlines I have flown for.
T-1A_pilot@reddit
Ok, I'm ok with struct and by the book, but....
No going back to check things??
Why ever would you teach that to anybody?? Sure, get it right the first time- but in case you didn't, reconfirm critical stuff!
FlyingsCool@reddit
“No going back” likely means “If you get distracted or find you missed something, go back to the start of the checklist”
hellswaters@reddit
Yeah. That's how I interpret "no going back." You can't do half the checklist, realize you forgot flaps, then continue where you left off.
You're doing the checklist, miss something, then start from step one.
JackPAnderson@reddit
That was likely a misunderstanding on OP's part. The actual checklists at the school I trained at had a few critical items appear multiple times, just in case (e.g. "Flight Controls: FREE AND CORRECT" happened during preflight, then again during runup) and I still do that out of habit.
If OP's CFI were here to discuss what happened, I bet we'd hear a very different story.
/u/saltysnack9000: It's always okay to rerun a checklist when you're safe on the ground. Don't let a CFI, stage check instructor, DPE, or passenger try to rush you. If you ever have any doubts, rerun the checklist. Your life and your passengers' lives are worth the extra 2 minutes.
Armanus14@reddit
I get the strict part, but as others have stated if you feel something wasn’t done right you need to go back and check; that’s just good judgement. But getting yelled out is unacceptable; you are paying for a service, this guy seems like an ass and you have the absolute right to tell him to go suck an egg and get a better CFI
Fire_Stool@reddit
This CFI sounds very young to me.
Taterdots@reddit
Do your checklists as written and if you get interrupted, start over. Nothing changes in that regard from a part 61 flight school to part 91, 135, or 121. Get that cemented now.
EvilMorty137@reddit
sounds like this CFI is an absolute asshole and shouldn’t be teaching students. Yes you made a mistake but it’s part of his job to point out your mistakes but also not to put so much pressure on you to “get it right the first time”, which is the dumbest teaching philosophy I’ve ever heard. It would have been more appropriate for him to make start over instead of just being like “you aren’t allowed to fly for a while”. I’d find a new school if that’s possible.
CaptainBarkleyBear@reddit
OP your instructor is trash. You ARE supposed to get it right the first time. But you're ALSO supposed to get it right the second, third and fourth times. If my student wants to run a checklist five times then let it rip
Yskonyn@reddit
The one thing that doesnt’t get mentioned much is the OP’s remark about allowing himself to do stuff out of order. Allowing yourself to deviate from standard operating procedures will make you prone to making errors or having missed stuff and this will reduce your safety margins. Get that habit out of your system asap.
So, doing things when they need to be done and do them by the book is part of the excuting a safe flight.
This, however, does not mean you should not re-check settings at certain logical points in your flight phases. A panel / instrument / control surface setting scan is always a good idea. The remark of the CFI of setting things right the first time and not going back probably is being taken too literally here by misunderstanding of the OP. The CFI wants the ‘doing things out of order’ to be purged out of their system first. He’ll probably acknowledge never going back to settings things up is a bad thing, but it is step two in this particular training phase, because he noticed a deficiency in the OP’s way of handling procedures and safety.
If , however, he is always like this regardless he should not be a CFI obviously.
Having said that, going takeoff with a landing flap setting is a serious incident. Remember you can only fail once if shit hits the fan. Don’t be complacent with safety.
bonro00133@reddit
This should’ve been a good learning moment, but it sounds like in this case it was just a shame moment.
Apart_Bear_5103@reddit
You’re misunderstanding something. There’s no way a CFI will be pissed at double checking a checklist. If true, never fly with that CFI ever again. Secondly, you fucked up, own it.
pressingfp2p@reddit
Yeah, I’m imagining a “did you do the checklist before or not?” Line of questioning when looping back to a previous item that convinced OP that they should be pretending they followed the checklist when they didn’t really, to avoid the embarrassment. I find it hard to believe any CFI would truly say “no, don’t double check anything.” Sounds more like trying to skirt responsibility for not following the list in the first place.
Long_Tone_4984@reddit
Do the checklist. Repeat if unsure. Do it in order. It’s there for a reason. Better safe than sorry.
Should you have been yelled at? No
callmeturkish@reddit
I can’t stress this enough - Checklists ARE NOT DO LISTS.
You complete the actions you know need to be done, THEN read through the checklist to verify that you’ve done them all correctly. Any CFI who disagrees needs to be fired immediately.
Cont4x@reddit
Two things. This sounds like poor checklist usage by you and your previous instructors. The new guy not believing in re-checks is wrong.
Checklists are to be followed and challenged. You can either do the read and follow method, of going down the list and completing them. Or follow a visual flow and then recheck your work against the checklist.
I’m unsure about everywhere else, but my own school also has challenge calls, where there’s a second checklist that has you re-check the most critical components, like flaps, trim and fuel selector. So the instructor calls these out and you confirm by physically checking them. If you’re solo, you do them yourself as challenge against yourself.
These checklists are there as a defence against us making mistakes. If you’re unsure, you re-check. If you think you made a mistake, re-check. Getting it right the first time is an admirable goal, but you should always, always re-check.
If he pings you for that, then they’re no good as a CFI. He probably should be retrained on human factors in how we’re not infallible and the purpose of checklists. Your other CFI’s should also be re-trained on the importance of being diligent on the checklists and constant re-checking.
Remember, it is your aircraft when you fly. Do it safely, do it within tolerance, and re-check when unsure
Top_Trouble_8740@reddit
Wait it out, learn your lesson and try again.
reddn2@reddit
Your cfi did you a solid. Check lists are there for a reason.... Scan gauges, all of them. That's how people die
pinchhitter4number1@reddit
Ignore the dickhead CFI, keep the lesson. We've all done it, we've all missed things on the checklist. Fortunately, this time it only ended in some hurt feelings and a little delay in training. Better is some food for thought... if you had give back and double-checked maybe the CFI would have gotten upset (it's not "illegal" it's just bout his preferred technique) but you world have caught your mistake. Don't let an asshole make you slip up.
Squik67@reddit
I always leave apron with no flaps at all, how did you manage to drive to the runway with flaps!??
Fatboy097@reddit
It happened cause you did a different flow than normal and prioritized making the CFI happy by not double checking over the safety of flight. Knowing that the CFI is a stickler, I probably wouldn’t have chosen to fly with him if I were you.
What you do now is keep going. You hit a little bump in the road and it seems for the most part that you know what you did. Keep showing up and improving and you’ll get your xc done.
Also, don’t fly with that guy again.
hoppertn@reddit
Standardization exists for a reason, to keep people from making mistakes. Follow the WRITTEN checklist and by all means go back to double check things if it’s your style. I think the CFI was well within their rights to correct the OP’s system of doing things, even if harsh.
StageMajestic613@reddit
Who’s checklist though? My school has their check list printed and available in the plane. My instructor has a similar but expanded one. I’ve added that into Foreflight and added a few extra things myself, such as verifying idle with carb heat. The true checklist should be in the POH, but it’s not.
Expensive-Blood859@reddit
For reference, OP’s system is how I was taught too. I think it’s just different styles of teaching. Though I’m not as loose with it; I’ve done it so many times at this point that I work through my flow first, and then use the checklist one item at a time to make sure I didn’t miss anything. Then I do one final check right before t/o, so my approach is flow -> check -> double check.
iridesc3nce@reddit
Chiming in with my system, once my flow started drifting from the written checklist, I made my own custom written checklist. So now my written checklist is the same order, items, etc as my flow, and there's little meaningful difference between do-check and read-do.
hoppertn@reddit
Curious to hear how a custom checklist that more matches your flow is more efficient than a written, approved checklist for the procedure? Not judging but just seems to introduce variables into a tried and true process. Nothing is 100% of course but my CFI drilled into me regulations and procedures are written in blood.
iridesc3nce@reddit
Yeah sure! If your school checklist doesn't match your flow, every time you fly, you're normalizing deviance. My school's checklist misses one or two things (for example: setting throttle back to 1000 rpm after runup & leaning) and also is ordered weirdly (example: setting altimeter after checking flight instruments, where presumably you'd check you're within 75 ft of known field elevation). After months of normalizing deviance, it's much easier to accidentally miss a check.
I started with the school's checklist, then adjusted it as my flow adjusted. I've shown my adjustments to a ton of the school's CFIs, including flight supervisors, some have been curious about what I changed, none spotted any issues with my changes.
southern-springs@reddit
I was at a school once that made their own custom checklists for every plane. Every student had to buy them for $10 for each plane to make sure all these things were covered. It made such a difference in student learning and safety. So many checklists that are out there in the seat pockets are old and don’t match reality of the plane or the learning environment. If I ran a flight school I would 💯 do this.
iridesc3nce@reddit
Oh, the school's checklist is custom, and not the manufacturer's checklist. And they charge $12 for the school checklist too.
southern-springs@reddit
Oof. No excuse for a school to have missed items, but I guess I remembered adding a few things in sharpie on mine now that I think about it.
kk_in_la@reddit
The system itself is not a problem. The problem is that OP was focused on trying to adjust to what they think CFI preference is, instead of taking the ownership over safety being focused on that. OP should have communicated openly: «this is different from how I do it with other CFI, I need to redo the flow to double check», «I lost my place in checklist, I need to redo». OP should not be starting the take off roll if they are not sure of their run up. OP clearly put part of responsibility of doing the checklist on the CFI. Probably they were thinking that CFI will call out mistakes early, and hence they did not redo the flow. The way OP is writing about the situation is lacking ownership, and so it is probably a right decision for OP not flying solo. They should be reflecting on the gaps they have in their flow, as simple change of the flow throws it off.
southern-springs@reddit
“Trying to adjust to what they think CFI preference is, instead of taking the ownership over safety…”
This is on the chief pilot, and the two CFIs involved as well as the student themselves.
It sounds like there is a culture at the flight school that lacks standardization and communication.
A pre-solo / solo student should be responsible for making sure the flaps up set to T/O every time, and to use a checklist to ensure and check that it happens.
Everything else in the OPs story is on the teachers involved.
hoppertn@reddit
Different strokes for different folks but flow first just seems to set someone up for failure even if they do checklist later. What if something comes up and they don’t complete checklist? Plenty of Barron pilots have flowed into a beautiful belly landing.
Expensive-Blood859@reddit
To be clear, I’d only do flow first in a non-critical situation… if anything abnormal happens the checklist is getting verbalized and followed to a T. That’s the other thing I was taught, which is that under stress your memory goes quick and can’t be relied upon
JayMcAU@reddit
I’m a flow person. If you ever go beyond being a private pilot, you will only be taught flows. If you learn in the military, even as a single pilot, you will only be taught flow, and sometimes memorized verbal checklist. Landing checklist in my military training were purely verbal, just like a GUMPS check. The only real problem here is not sticking w a standard in the training and for yourself. Like many mistakes in my career, I think this is one you will never make again. Time for an ops check and get on with it. No one ever progresses focusing on our mistakes. You will continue to make mistakes, you will continue to learn from them.
FutureAutomatic380@reddit
This.
kojak68@reddit
this is not a good way to do your checklist. Checklists are there, and in that order, for a reason.
Still, this is a great lesson. This time was a new CFI, next time it will be a friend, your girlfriend, a strange radio call, a bird flying by…literally anything can throw you off your routine, and you are always a small distraction away from a fatal mistake. Do your checklist in the correct order, and if you have any doubt, do it again.
Fun_Needleworker_181@reddit
This^^
kruecab@reddit
Before by instrument checkride, my CFI said I should avoid the three D’s - Dumb, Dangerous, or Different. In this case, you did something different in trying to appease this CFI and it ended up being a problem. Your CFI did the right thing to abort your takeoff. Not sure about stripping your solo privileges, but you absolutely must be configured properly for each phase of flight.
I agree with others on here, you need to do your checklists the same each time and let them tell you what to do. Don’t try to cross anything off early. Your checklists are built assuming the preceding ones were all done, so if you start doing stuff out of order, you are replacing the manufacturer’s careful study of the procedure with your own intuition. Which do you trust more?
The only thing I don’t understand is why this CFI doesn’t like any rechecking. There are certain things that I do even after the checklist because they are very important. Checking flaps, power, mixture, and fuel during critical phases of flight line takeoff, climb, and landing just makes me feel better. Sometimes mixture controls friction lock isn’t super tight and they wiggle out. Sometimes a flap selector or fuel boost pump switch gets bumped. I don’t re-do these checklists, but I will verify those controls.
EarZealousideal7275@reddit
The incorrect flap setting is a pretty big deal. Take the learning outcome from that, and make sure you never ever mess that up again.
As for the instructor behavior, completely unacceptable. He is there to teach, not to yell and intimidate. Ask (actually, demand) to never fly with that instructor again. If you are feeling intimidated and belittled, then you won’t be learning to the best of your ability.
bryan2384@reddit
What setting is "start"? This post confuses me.
Reiia@reddit
That's a terrible CFI.
analwartz_47@reddit
Wow. In maintenance environment you HAVE to re check everything. You would be fired if you never re checked anything and used the excuse 'na i just do it correct the first time'.
This guy is a muppet. Avoid him if you can.
RandalPMcMurphyIV@reddit
After reading a post here about a student's bad CFI experience, I was reminded of my own opposite CFI experience.
This is kind of a long and sad story.
I did my initial flight training at a small (single 1800 x 50 foot runway) part 61 privately owned airport in Connecticut in 1975. Of course, as a starry eyed brand new student with dreams of soaring through the "endless halls", I lacked the experience to evaluate flight schools or individual CFI's and was dependent on the luck of the draw. Any new student may end up with a disinterested time builder or a career teacher who is passionate about aviation and passing his or her skills on to others.
In my case, I drew the latter, whose day job (I did not know that at the time) was as a dairy farmer. As an inexperienced student at the time, I was not aware that I had drawn the royal flush of CFI's with Bob. As the years passed and I became aware of what a gift Bob had passed on to me through his amazing teaching style, I made several attempts to look him up to see if he was still active, with no luck.
Last year, as I was looking at my old log book, I noticed that, in my search at aviationdb.com, I had mis-spelled his name by one letter and, ultimately, found him living in Vermont. After locating him, I decided to give him a call to thank him for the gift of aviation that he had passed on to me so I called.
When a woman answered the phone, I gave her my name and explained why I was calling and asked if I had located the right person. She replied that "yes, this was the right person but Bob died from cancer two years ago". I had spent much of my life living in Vermont not far from where Bob and his wife had bought a Dairy Farm and could have easily visited them, but for a spelling error. I was able to tell her about my time as Bob's student and the subsequent decades benefiting from the skills that Bob passed on to me.
In those days, I was a young 20 year old still living with my parents and was working second shift at Pratt & Whitney. I borrowed $1000.00 (yes you could actually learn to fly for that kind of money in 1975) from the credit union to fund my training. Two or three times a week, I would get up in the morning to go flying and then go to work in the afternoon to pay for it. I started in early April and soloed at 12 hours. By late May and June, I was doing my solo cross countries on those glorious New England late spring days and, on August 2, at 44 hours, passed my check ride. It was a tribute to Bob's teaching that I hit hose mile stones at relatively low time.
Over the years, I ended up buying into a flying club based at CON and got to fly a beautiful 182 all over the place, including three trips to OSH. During that time, thanks to Bob and that old process of "learning by gradual immersion", I became comfortable with everything from short field grass strips to flying into DCA to visit The National Air and Space Museum with my 12 year old son.
Although terribly disappointed that I missed thanking Bob while he was alive, I was, at least, able to tell this story to his widow knowing that it brought some comfort to hear an echo from the past telling stories about her late husband.
I will never forget turning left base for runway 1 at 7B9 and hearing Bob's voice reminding me to look right for the bozo check watching for the unannounced pilot skipping the pattern to do a straight in.
Thank you Bob. May you rest in peace.
Menno_knight987@reddit
Yelling and profanity unless in a noisy environment is a sign of running out of tools/skills to instruct or lead. It doesn’t make the CFI a bad instructor or person outright.
Never ever, ever try to restart mid checklist. Full flaps can and will absolutely kill you and anyone else with you. Own the mistake and follow the checklist verbatim, 1000s of people smarter than us and dead pilots made the checklists what they are.
cptnpiccard@reddit
Man, did you have a shit CFI. This is on him. He's there to teach you, not to raise his voice at you. Get a better CFI or a better school (a school that keeps a person like that employed loses a ton of points in my book)
HighVelocitySloth@reddit
Just follow the checklist item per item. You are a student. Creating bad habits this early is a bad sign I now use an electronic checklist. If I get distracted or interrupted I know where I left off. Prior to that I would have to start from the top (on whichever checklist I was on) to make sure I didn’t miss anything.
Ljulien@reddit
What's your electronic checklist of choice?
HighVelocitySloth@reddit
CFI in our club created one
Roverjosh@reddit
Time to get a different CFI. It’s your money and if they don’t teach you in a way you’ll learn and retain that knowledge, then they really aren’t helping you. Some people like the tough love approach, but not letting you recheck things to make sure you did them, even if it’s out of order, frankly is dumb. Ditch that CFI.
CaptaiinCrunch@reddit
I would not have yelled or let the student leave the ground but I would definitely let them go all the way to takeoff roll and abort. Then I would give them a serious debrief to include a crash video to really drill into them how dangerous the situation could have been. This was a pre-solo flight, it's more of an evaluation than a teaching flight. Perfect opportunity to teach that skipping checklist items can kill you.
agadir80@reddit
I'm trying to figure out how'd you miss the flaps setting if you followed the checklist to the letter? On both the C172 and P28 I fly, I have a flaps item on the betore taxi and before take off sections. Also, I make it a habit to always brief the take off/climb out during the before take off check. Even when I'm alone. This includes checking the flaps for the take off type (normal, soft and short field).
night_flight3131@reddit
I fully read and do my checklists even though I've done them tons of times, and I sometimes miss things by losing my spot. The difference is, because I am very familiar with the flow of the checklist, if something happens where I go "throttle idle--wait, we're not there yet," I can catch myself skipping over a line because I've got the order of the checklist ingrained in me.
Now, on the other hand, if you're a student pilot who doesn't usually follow checklists to the letter, your little brain skipping over checklist items can start to align with the holes in other pieces of swiss cheese...
gromm93@reddit
I was thinking this too. You lower flaps all the way for pre-flight, then you raise them to taxi. You don't taxi with flaps! Then set them for take-off after run-up.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
Most people I know raise the flaps after preflight before turning the battery off (in C172). But there are a few people that leave them down and only retract them after engine start. This scenario is why I'm against that practice. Just raise them after preflight while you're thinking about it. OP experienced primacy, the tendency to do what you learned first. But he probably changed his flow because of the new instructor. This is also why he should never fly with that instructor again.
RandalPMcMurphyIV@reddit
"the CFI suddenly pulled the power, canceled the takeoff over the radio, and started shouting at me. I was honestly terrified and had no idea what went wrong."
There is no excuse for any teacher at any time (particularly a CFI) who is being paid by OP for shouting at a student for making a mistake. This CFI is completely unqualified to teach and should explore an alternate career path that might involve using the phrase "would you like fries with that order?".
There is no place for bullies in the cockpit and OP should complain, in writing, to his flight school management about the incident.
TuwtlesF1@reddit
So you're telling me an instructor is skipping an opportunity to teach and turning it into an opportunity to yell at you... Sounds like a power trip and shitty instructing.
JGRojas90@reddit
Well, I mean. Isn’t that the reason for checklists? You do your flows, take out the checklist, read and verify the items, correct any item that needs correcting. If at any point you want to run it again because: you forgot you did it, want to just do it, want to check one item again, you run the checklist.
I am not an instructor, so can’t say what the guy was “teaching”, but I see no lesson in what he does. I also see no CRM (yes, you are a student and he is a CFI but that is still a two man cockpit) or the complete and utter destruction of whatever CRM there was when the CFI yelled because the flaps were set for landing when a simple “check your flaps” would have sufficed.
keepitreasonable@reddit
We arent getting the other side of the story.
I’m doubtful the CFI doesn’t allow a flap setting check as part of takeoff procedure. That would be the second time you are checking flaps - do you not have a pretty clear set and verify flaps in pre departure checklist when configuring?
You say you followed checklist “step by step” - I guess question is what happened that you didn’t set flaps?
mirassou3416@reddit
Suggest ditching the instructor—I’d never again fly with someone like that
Feisty_Donkey_5249@reddit
Fire this CFI.
CMHCommenter@reddit
You’re not good enough to half ass checklists. I’m not good enough to half ass checklists. Just do it, in full, every time. Guess what wouldn’t have happened if you had.
Urrolnis@reddit
Not only is the OP (or anybody, really) good enough to half ass the checklists, OP is also not good enough to reinvent the checklists.
You're learning. Do it as written, don't get creative. There's a story behind every item on the checklist (why we ensure the engines are running repeatedly on airline checklists), and you as a student don't know the story.
RedDirtDVD@reddit
ESH. Do checklists properly. CFI that you usually fluky with is too relaxed. CFI on example flight sounds like a poor teacher. Consider a new flight school.
ultralights@reddit
Guarantee you won’t make that mistake again
thats-mr-bonkers2you@reddit
Going to agree that yelling in the cockpit is uncalled for. If in fact that’s what happened. It also sounds like the instructor missed a good teaching opportunity on why checklist rigor is important, in particular for student pilots.
my opinion is that the fault here lies with the “other CFI’s” allowing a more relaxed adherence to the checklist. This should have been corrected in the first couple of lessons with proper instruction.
Instead the student wound up at the end of the runway without having properly done the pre-takeoff checklist. That’s the last chance “things that can kill you quickly” checklist.
I would expect that there needs to be some remedial training on checklist usage which honestly should be fairly straightforward.
nightlanding@reddit
Your instructor is an ass, a calm explanation of why you could have killed yourself is what was called for. Hey - ya wanna die or maybe we'll do the checklist again and see what you missed ;)
Your checklist use sounds a bit random. All my students go through it as written, but you surely can go back if you want to. Some POH checklists are awful, so an early lesson is we can write our own checklists as long as they cover all the points needed. (some preflights have you zig-zagging all over the place, a rational flow is much better)
Once again, what you did was dangerous. I would do a "oops, forgot, taking off with full flaps" lesson at a place with a LONG runway to show how bad it is. It requires a lot of finesse to resolve in the air, I don't expect students to perfect it, I want them to see why not*.
* never try this with a twin, you can get off the runway way below a safe speed if you lose an engine.
gromm93@reddit
Honestly, I would expect such an error to be discovered by your designated take-off point, since the point of having one is to simply say "uh oh, something isn't right, abort take-off" regardless of why.
nightlanding@reddit
Ever done it? Every plane is different, but for one example a C-150 with 40 flaps lifts off quicker than you might expect in a flat attitude, but then you are stuck just *barely* accelerating in ground effect.
Cunning_Stun@reddit
Don't ever change the way you operate just to please somebody else
wickedfandude@reddit
The fact that he doesnt go back to check things is quite concerning.
Part of what i do is going back and checking things if i have any question in my mind whether or not i did something one way or missed something.
Charlieplanedgn@reddit
The fact that he doesnt go back to check things is quite concerning.
Part of what i do is going back and checking things if i have any question in my mind whether or not i did something one way or missed something.
aerocheck@reddit
I’ve been flying the same airplane for 28 years and I still stay flaps, trim, gas before takeoff and 5 green lights before landing regardless of checklists, etc. absolutely nothing wrong with double checking, repeating a checklist, etc.
And as for “doing things out of order”. A checklist is just that, to check that things are done. It is not a DO list. Over time you will develop flows to accomplish tasks and then you use the checklist to verify them.
Your new cfi sounds like an idiot.
Carre_Munuts@reddit
You’d be able to take off without flaps set. What a goof ball. I get it but dang what a dick.
oandroido@reddit
An instructor yelled at me for turning and pulling a bit too hard, then asked “how would YOU like this?!” And turned and yanked. It was my 2nd lesson.
Fired.
Years later - instrument training flight. Instructor kept talking to me over ATC. I asked ATC to say again, and he yelled about no
Parking_Body_578@reddit
That was when I learned quite a lot
Reasonable_Hippo9163@reddit
this post reeks full of defense mechanisms and it's shocking anyone is upvoting and on your side with this
Normal-Lawfulness565@reddit
chair flying will help a lot my friend, I completely understand the CFI, a wrong flap configuration could kill you so remember to practice in your head the day prior a couple times and this won’t happen, btw this situation will make you a better pilot, you won’t forget the flaps NEVER AGAIN and also will run the checklist as it should be, keep it up
Being_a_Mitch@reddit
I'm not saying this is a good CFI, but...you also need to take responsibility here. This is a long post with a lot of excuses as to why you forgot the flaps. But at the end of the day, you forgot the flaps. Now, I'm not saying it would've necessarily been a deadly mistake here, but incorrect configurations have killed a lot of people. Make sure very critical stuff like that is checked every time. Many people have a "FLATS GUMPS" or similar to augment checklists and make sure that at least the very critical items are done.
weeji_san@reddit
You need to learn how to follow checklists, and that instructor needs to learn how to stay composed.
taggingtechnician@reddit
For context, there have been many takeoff crash investigations that concluded that the flaps were still in the landing position. This is crucial because the landing position is meant to slow the aircraft down and will prevent the aircraft from reaching climbing speeds, resulting in a collision with ground or trees or buildings. In some cases the casualties were a CFI and his student, and the assumption by investigators is that the checklist was interrupted by a "teaching moment".
I agree with the others, a CFI should be teaching not evaluating; it is obvious that he (nor any of the other CFIs at your school) are teaching proper checklist procedures. If you fear that a CFI is evaluating instead of teaching, then follow the checklist strictly, and if you lose your place or get interrupted (no matter how simple or short), then start over from the beginning to ensure you never miss a step. Ever.
I recommend a good book or audiobook, "The Killing Zone" by Paul Craig.
Matuteg@reddit
Bro this whole text is written with AI lol
Phocio@reddit
There’s a pilot on YouTube who has a little fake switch panel that sticks to the dash as a reminder. As you are following the checklist you flip the switch. If you get interrupted you look and see what switch is flipped and go back to that section. It’s called the buddy check www.missionarybushpilot.com I know it’s not a solution to your problem but any kind of reminder system that you can develop will make you a safer pilot.
Rubik4life@reddit
Little advice , do a “CFIT” check before every takeoff: -Controls (mainly control locks since you should have checked them already ) -Flaps -set for takeoff. -Instruments - no flags and takeoff speeds set -Trims - centred and set for takeoff (you’ll appreciate the centred part when you start doing sim training and repositioning the airplane after an engine failure).
Newer planes will yell at you if you have one of those missing or not setup properly, but entry-level planes don’t.
Also, like I mentioned, very useful in sim training when you don’t want to waste valuable training minutes doing after start and before takeoff when practicing V1 cuts or repositioning for take off after an engine fail. (Or coming back from the coffee break in between you and your sim partner’s session…lol)
InterestingUmpire738@reddit
Your usage of checklists is incorrect. You should be following them to a T, line by line. Also you should be going back over the checklist after completing it. I don't care what the instructor says.
Was the instructor correct in pulling power on you yes, but also incorrect at the same time. Personally I would have stopped you from entering the runway enviroment with incorrect settings. Also if he really did yell at you that's uncalled for. Stern and honest talking to about checklist usage fine, but yelling no.
Now what I'd do is go into the flight school and request a meeting with your regular instructor and the other instructor (only if what you said was entirely true). In this meeting I would bring up that the yelling was unacceptable and should never happen in or outside the cockpit unless death is actually imminent. I'd also address the checklist usage. Be honest and say yes you made a mistake but the expectation that you are perfect on the 1st and only time through the checklist is quixotic and unsafe.
This conversation needs to happen because it sets the expectations you have of your instructor(s). Remember you are the customer and you can set your own red lines.
jimngo@reddit
That flaps setting would have resulted in an inability to climb and if there were any obstructions you could have gotten both people killed. It is very serious. You missed a step on your checklist. But you're not "grounded." You just can't be PIC until you're signed off again. Go schedule a couple hours of pattern work with a CFI, to full stops and probably with shutdown and restarts so you can get used to doing all the checklists from start to shutdown. Checklists save lives.
TobyADev@reddit
what a stupid instructor
breakingthejewels@reddit
Guy sounds like a dickhead
Far_Technology7856@reddit
I mean both of you are wrong in the way you use checklists, but it’s not his fault you missed an item because he ruined your “flow”. There is absolutely no reason to not follow a checklist item for item on the ground.. you probably should be grounded for that. Take it as a learning experience to make sure it never happens again
kwebs20@reddit
Whatever the case is YOU allowed somebody in the cockpit to affect how YOU fly and YOU missing that flap setting almost killed YOU. Fuck what everybody thinks man and honestly fuck how your instructor feels imagine they are not even there. At this point you've done solos, you need to grow a pair, and tell other pilots that you are going to do things how you are trained, and that they are paid by you to teach or supervise NEW specific lessons not go back to basics.
At the end of the day you got a simple checklist wrong in almost a fatal way it doesn't matter if you had your CFI or your hot girlfriend in the passenger seat distracting you.... they'll be picking you up in pieces all the same. Decide if flying is right for you if you'd have taken off you'd have killed that guy do you seriously think he's in the wrong for being mad when you can't even respect his and your own life enough to not check flaps????
Far_Technology7856@reddit
not going back to look is an odd strategy but it’s not his fault you missed an item. You messed up plain and simple, take it as a learning opportunity to make sure it never happens again
squawkingVFR@reddit
"...and no going back to re-check things after you’ve completed them."
This is the dumbest fucking thing I've read on this sub, or at least it's close.
Far_Technology7856@reddit
there is absolutely no reason to ever not read the checklist item for item on the ground, this is something you should always do regardless of whatever cfi is with you. You messed up and got called out for it, oh well. Forget about it move on and practice doing things correctly
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
That’s not how you do checklists at all
Jumping around and doing it your own way is bad.
Kusarigamai@reddit
CFIs like these are the worst imo. The mindset that there is only one way to do things and if it's not the way he likes then it is wrong is such a terrible attitude and method of teaching. At least for me it was always the CFIs I learned the least from and who's words I took least to heart.
Schwalbe262Guy@reddit
No going back to check… doesn’t that sort of go against the point of safety, even if you are read-do I still double check, it’s just a habit. I’m a flow check person. That CFI is very strict
sunfishtommy@reddit
You have to remember you are hearing this from a student pilot. If a student was consistently missing items the first time through the checklist and making a habit of repeating every checklist 2-3 times i too would say they need to tighten up and do the checklist right the first time.
babi-guling@reddit
Everybody makes mistakes and is normal to be nervous with a new CFI. This is a great lesson because inadvertently taking off with full flaps will kill you and everybody on board. Also there is never a rush in finishing a checklist, take a deep breath and be aware of what you are doing, step by step, no rushing. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast
meticulouslycarless@reddit
How will fill flaps kill you?
Phillimac16@reddit
I'm with you on this, not sure why you are getting downvoted. Sure on larger aircraft full flaps on takeoff is going to end badly, but on a trainer you're actually taught to take off with flaps 2/3 for short and soft field takeoffs. Surely one more notch of flaps isn't going to be catastrophic, but it's going to hurt takeoff and climb performance.
flightist@reddit
Find an older 172 with 150hp and 40 flaps and report back to us.
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
Unless you are at very high elevation or recklessly over gross the O-300 can do it. I know from experience.
Granite_burner@reddit
What was OAT?
Food for thought: nobody ever says “I know from experience it will kill you.”
Selections bias is a thing.
flightist@reddit
See, with how it climbed at 4000 DA and near gross with the flaps up, I’m not entirely sure I buy that. But it’s been a while.
meticulouslycarless@reddit
Yea it will hurt performance but that’s all. And I’ve seen it. I even show my students so they understand why
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
What happens if your performance is hurt enough? If the guy had said “could” kill you would you be so adamant?
LearningT0Fly@reddit
You keep the flaps in until you leave ground effect though… not to mention your entire setup is different than a normal takeoff roll.
This dude is a student who, if he missed full flaps may rotate early and in GE pull back before he’s at vx or vy. Not saying it’d end up catastrophically or anything but come on, it’s undue risk here.
dylanm312@reddit
Depends on how close you are to the edge of your performance envelope. You might get away with it when you’re solo on a 15C day on a 6000 foot runway with half tanks.
Fully loaded in 35C heat on a 2500 foot runway with the tanks topped off? Forget about it.
Also, more importantly, in most small aircraft taking off with full flaps is prohibited in the POH, so get ready for your insurance to deny any claims you try to bring them when you crash off the departure end and wreck the school’s plane. Can you cover a $100,000 bill, plus property damage to the airport?
Bucketnate@reddit
Depends on how quickly you realize. I had a situation on one of my early solos where I was doing a softfield takeoff with 40 degrees of flaps. I only realized because my speed in ground effect was extremely low
LearningT0Fly@reddit
More drag == less climb performance.
I remember when I was solo practicing go arounds one time I forgot to put flaps up. Trees at the end of the runway kept getting closer and closer and I was still not climbing. It’s been years and I don’t know if my asshole has unpuckered yet.
meticulouslycarless@reddit
I’m not dying the lack of performance. That is true. I show my students that. But having full flaps is not gonna kill ya. And as others have stated. As long as it’s not in the POH it’s not a big deal. I mean, when anyone goes around. Are they not using full flaps? So it’s not a strong argument tbh
LearningT0Fly@reddit
Uh. You dump the flaps pretty quickly on a go around you don’t fuckin leave them in through the entire procedure lmao.
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
The sink of taking out flaps all at once is way more dangerous than the drag of leaving them in.
LearningT0Fly@reddit
I didn’t say taking them out all at once. I said you don’t run through the entire go around procedure with them in.
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
ok you didn’t say it but the students who just flip that paddle up or even more so just release the manual handle and drop it to the floor do it all the time. Does it matter in a 180hp Scout? Or even the 60 deg Bird Dog? Not immensely, but still I’d rather keep the flaps in and just climb than sink fifty or so feet.
LearningT0Fly@reddit
I’d rather teach students to put flaps in one at a time instead of shrugging and saying ‘oh well’ then hearing a student of mine crashed into some trees on a high DA day.
But maybe we have different priorities idk.
meticulouslycarless@reddit
When a student is learning, they aren’t good at releasing them right away. Sometimes they stay in and they climb with them. Still alive after 2 years and my students learn why we remove them.
dsanders692@reddit
I had a far less scary outcome, but still the same mistake. Touch-and-go's in the circuit with maybe 8 or 10 hours under my belt. On climb out, vsi wasn't as happy as I expected. Climbing safely, but not as quickly as usual.
I spent 20 seconds or so fiddling with the throttle, mixture, carb heat... Anything that could've been robbing performance.
CFI: "not climbing as well as usual, is it?". Me: "Yeah, I've obviously missed something just done know what"
CFI: "It tends to do that while the flaps are still down"
He mustn't have been too worried, because I went up for my first solo 20 minutes later. Afterwards he said the fact that I'd recognised that something was wrong so quickly and tried to troubleshoot it was enough to offset the dumb mistake itself 😂
Mrs_Fagina@reddit
Ask the trees at the departure end of the runway.
meticulouslycarless@reddit
So not the flaps themselves then. That doesn’t answer how flaps kill. Also not every airport has trees at the end.
Mrs_Fagina@reddit
Yea you’re dragging flaps, meaning your power setting can’t outclimb the drag. Means your climb performance is severely reduced, likely beyond the obstacle clearance climb gradient.
So yea, the flaps.
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
Please for the love of god learn the four forces.
Mrs_Fagina@reddit
Lift, weight, thrust, and….what could that last one be?
And how do higher flap settings affect a wing’s L/D ratio?
Does it get worse? Can’t be, because of course more flaps only increase lift without any assorted disproportionate drag penalty, thus causing a drastic drop in a wings overall L/D ratio, thus reducing climb performance at higher flap settings
You fucking retard.
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
I misread your initial post which I guess is my bad but yeesh what a fucking outburst.
Mammoth_Impress_3108@reddit
When you're both condescending, and confidently incorrect, you tend to get the worst out of people lol
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
Ok maybe. I debated whether or not to offer the grace of a mea culpa to somebody so perpetually enraged though.
Fluffy-Mud-8945@reddit
"So not the flaps then"
tHe cRaSh KiLleD mE nOt tHe FlApS U iDiOt
Mispelled-This@reddit
N9926Q
hoppertn@reddit
More flaps, more drag, might end up doing a barrel roll Starfox.
Ausgeflippt@reddit
Some planes can't outclimb their flaps.
burnheartmusic@reddit
As others have said, he’s right for pulling your solo endorsement. Not right for yelling, but anything could throw you off enough to miss something if you don’t do it the same time every time. A student taking off with full flaps could be deadly, and is something you likely should catch in the course of taking the runway and checking final and runway are clear. I know you came looking for validation, but you gotta do the checklists in order. Some people can do it and then check. You don’t sound like one of those people. Just read it and do it.
sunfishtommy@reddit
I wonder if his instructors have taught him a proper flow. Seems like he does not have a normal order he does things.
Parking_Body_578@reddit
Maybe he did you a favor? He believes flying is serious and is seriously concerned about his students. I expect he believes you will be more careful now
sunfishtommy@reddit
Yea the yelling is not super productive, but i also bet OP will not forget the flap setting in the future. Sometimes its the instructors that are strict and assholes that get you to tighten up and improve your flying.
HesinburgABQ@reddit
Complain to the flight school and never fly with that instructor again. You don't have to take nonsense from them ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE PAYING. No way ! Dispute it !!!! It's not like you did something so Saftey critical etc
sunfishtommy@reddit
Taking off with a landing flap setting is safety critical. A student should not be getting signed off to do a solo cross country if they cant consistently configure the plane for takeoff.
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
Why is your paid instructor shouting at you?
Why is he teaching you not to go back and double-check a checklist if you feel you need to?
This is all so unnecessary.
sunfishtommy@reddit
I could see two sides to this story. If a student is consistently missing things on checklists and having to repeat every checklist 2-3 times just to catch everything is concerning.
Also doing things in the same order is important. Doing things in a different order each flight is a recipe to miss something just like the flap setting in this story.
TheDornado13@reddit
Most important thing is to have a conversation with this CFI. Explain things from your side and how their teaching method is different from other CFIs you have trained with and that he unsettled your routine. But also important, have them explain their method of doing things and why. You can both learn from the experience. But also, never let an instructor tell you not to double check a list or check it again, that is just wrong. Yes you should go in order of the checklists and if you do things out of order, you really should try and fix that because the order is done for a reason, but if you skip something or get lost I was always taught to start the checklist over and double check each step. Don't get frustrated or discouraged, we all make mistakes. Yes this was a bad one, but nobody got hurt. Just take it in stride and use it to try and correct the bad habit of doing things out of order. All pilots pick up bad habits, that's why we have BFRs. I might also suggest not flying with this CFI again if they make you nervous. Some people just don't gel. I had one CFI who I was very friendly with and liked a whole bunch and who is an excellent teacher, but he and I just didn't gel as teacher/student. We are still friends, but I just didn't like learning with him, so I told him so and he completely understood.
Automatic-Loquat-441@reddit
The whole point of checklists is developing safety routines that are only safe when they are done correctly, in order, and become procedural memory.
Ok-Money2811@reddit
“no going back to re-check things after you’ve completed them. His philosophy is: do it right the first time”
I sense a smoking hole in the ground when he moves on to much more complex airplanes. You need to find another instructor, or school if they insist on pairing him with you.
The way you are setting the flaps early and then confirming later via a checklist, is exactly how we and most major carriers do it, it’s called a flow for the particular phase of the flight and there is nothing wrong with it. The plane doesn’t move until the flaps are in a takeoff setting, Then we have a traditional checklist confirming the configuration, then another check via a “takeoff configuration check” that the plane either does automatically or we do with a button push that confirms the plane is in a safe takeoff configuration.
There is nothing wrong with going back to check your work, I don’t care what CFI perfect tells you.
sunfishtommy@reddit
You have to remember this is coming from a student pilot. If i had a student that was doing things in a different order each time and missing things on the checklist and repeating the checklist 3 times just to not miss anything those things would be concerning to me.
Repeating a checklist multiple times is an option but it should not be the norm. If a student is consistently missing things their first time through a checklist they are not doing the checklist right.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
Never fly with this CFI again.
UrH0pes4ndDreamz@reddit
CFI had a valid reaction. In a C172, either you won’t be able to take off with flaps in landing setting and you’ll be rolling at 60 knots or whatever, or you’ll get into ground effect and stall out if you try to increase pitch and crash. Switch to an instructor that prefers the do-check method though. Personally I prefer that one as well and would be kinda pissed if I can’t go back on the checklist. I mean that’s why the checklist is there, right?
AidenTEMgotsnapped@reddit
Yelling at a student is not acceptable full stop.
BrianBash@reddit
Sounds like a mistake that happens when you get outta your flow. Don’t beat yourself up over it, mistakes happen.
Change instructors. Advise the higher ups what happened, full surrender and humble. “I’m so sorry about what happened. I’ll work on getting a more solid foundation for my cockpit procedures. It won’t happen again. On another note, my See Eff Eye was quite aggressive with his abort procedure and was screaming in my ear before we’re safely clear of the runway.”
The school knows this guy is a douche. I’d fire that guy before he got back into the office. Never yell in the cockpit!!
Unable-Building3357@reddit
Friction and negativity is ineffective at teaching, learning or inspiring others to improve and learn everyday as we all do for work or students.
Take the constructive criticism, fire his ass or learn to manage slightly OCD or autistic pilots who are remarkably skilled but cant communicate beyond alimony payments.
antigsist@reddit
Just change the school, thats all you need. You are the one who pays for the whole schooling system.
Flyward_Aerospace@reddit
Canceling the takeoff was 100% the right call but the way he handled it after sounds awful. Yelling at a student for a mistake during training is literally counterproductive, you want them comfortable enough to speak up when something feels off, not scared to admit they missed a step. The whole point of checklists is that humans make mistakes and we catch them before they matter.
New_Medicine_2965@reddit
Complain to the flight school and never fly with that instructor again. You don’t have to take nonsense from them ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE PAYING. No way ! Dispute it !!!! It’s not like you did something so Saftey critical etc
PILOT9000@reddit
Sounds like your checklist usage is lacking.
I’ve been flying professionally since probably before you were born in all types of aviation roles and checklists are used 100% of the time and 100% of the time in order. Yes there are flows, but they are prescribed and done in order every time the same way by all of us and then checked with a checklist.
Tighten up on the checklists. If you skip something, get distracted, get pulled away from something else, don’t recall if you missed something, or anything else, start the checklist over at the beginning and run it again. 100% use of every normal checklist 100% of the time.
LADR_Official@reddit
As a cfi, especially after reading this thread, I think it's really, really important to highlight:
You have to do the checklist correctly. If 'With other CFIs, it’s more relaxed. They don’t mind if I set things up earlier or slightly out of order, as long as everything is completed properly before takeoff.' is true, they are SETTING YOU UP FOR FAILURE
Literally yelling (if true) isn't appropriate, but he is 100% correct and I'm shocked this thread isn't more focused on how incorrect/laxed checklist usage for a PPL solo is deemed ok, especially given you tried to takeoff with full flaps
FiberApproach2783@reddit
Exactly. Regardless of the order they're choosing to do it, OP missed two separate checklist items that say flaps up. That doesn't randomly happen, and it makes it likely that they're missing other items and just not noticing them. If you can't even read it straight from the checklist and get it right, how the hell are you going to go out of order/from memory and get it correct? So dangerous.
live_drifter@reddit
That’s a really bad CFI
InflncrPltSukDezNuts@reddit
I feel like there's more to this story. I find it extremely hard to believe that any CFI would ever discourage double checking a safety critical item, and even if they did, they certainly are going to be more upset by you trying to take off full flaps (which may kill you depending on circumstances) than by you recognizing and correcting the error before takeoff.
weech@reddit
This was my take as well. Theres no way a CFI is gonna tell you not to go back and check something you’re not sure of. OP is either taking something CFI is saying too literally or just not accepting ownership of the situation.
Don’t deflect blame on missing something onto the CFI—just own it, learn from it, and don’t do it again.
Also, I’m willing to bet the CFI let you deliberately progress all the way into the takeoff role before making a big deal of aborting—the law of intensity. You’re more likely to never make that mistake again than if he’d just reminded you to put the flaps up after he noticed you missed it on your after landing flow/checklist.
sadgeclap@reddit
Obviously it’s hard to judge exactly what happened on Reddit. That said, this guy sounds like a nutcase. Screaming at a student during takeoff is a bigger safety issue than taking off with full flaps in a light trainer. I would ask to meet with the Chief Instructor to discuss your retraining plan and bring up your concerns about the instructor, including asking not to fly with him again.
runway31@reddit
A hot, heavy and humid takeoff with flaps landing could kill you at a short field. Im not gonna say it cant be done, nor am I an instructor, but I would carefully look at those circumstances when considering letting a student execute a flaps landing takeoff
sadgeclap@reddit
I wouldn’t allow the takeoff to continue either, nor did I mean to imply it’s a good idea. Just that the student freezing on the controls at takeoff speed isn’t any better. Hard to judge the situation without having been there, the other commenters saying to work it out with the school are as correct as anyone can be without knowing the exact details.
runway31@reddit
Yeah definitely agree, yelling at a pilot at the controls while rolling down the runway seems like a bad idea lol
Every_Rush_8612@reddit
I think you thought about this too much based on things you had heard about the particular CFI. Everything should be standardized no matter who you are flying with.
VanDenBroeck@reddit
What do you mean by this? Do your flaps have a "start" position? Do you mean full up or takeoff setting or what?
TheOriginalJBones@reddit
That one got me too. Has to be a language barrier thing or just one of the internet’s many mysteries.
Given__To__Fly@reddit
This is exactly how it should be taught. There is absolutely no other way. I've had 14 CFI's. Not a single one was "relaxed" on checklists, and no one ever told me it was okay to do things out of sequence or skip anything.
This is not the way. Do not get in the habit of this, or you will die. Straight up.
This is ALSO not the way. Shouting at you? That's just a power trip. You should never feel terrified by a CFI. Being terrified by your own actions in the cockpit is acceptable, as long as you learn from it, but a shouting CFI is almost never okay except in extremely rare circumstances where life and limb are at immediate risk.
The biggest thing is, he missed it too. During your checks, he should have been following along. Some people like to see how far you'll go without noticing, and I get that. I would do that to give the student an opportunity to catch their mistake. But it could have been a much more constructive conversation than what you experienced.
"Hey Student, I noticed you still have your flaps in a landing configuration, and that's dangerous because X. We need to be following the checklist to the letter, because they are there for a reason. The reason you don't want that much flaps during takeoff is X. If you want to continue flying solo, we can't be making these mistakes. Not because you're a bad pilot, but because safety is the most important thing. Now let's shake that off, and continue with the flight, and we'll talk more about this during the debrief."
PapaJon988@reddit
Always fly how you normally fly. Don’t change stuff based on a different instructor. An instructor’s preference isn’t the ACS. If you get out of your rhythm, you’re going to miss stuff. As long as you’re safe, it’s a debrief item or the instructor can show you their method to make you a safer pilot. Bottom line is that you did something unsafe that the instructor and school doesn’t want you going solo in their plane till they know you’re properly retrained. It’s not a big deal.
Also as a dad and army vet, I will always take the phrase, “shouting” with a grain of salt.
Distinct_Pressure832@reddit
Yeah I surely take this story with a grain of salt. My 12 year old thinks a stern tone of voice is yelling. I’m not saying it’s impossible but I haven’t run into any commercial pilot who has resorted to yelling in a cockpit yet.
StratoKite@reddit
Leaving aside your CFI, just follow the procedure as the are written. The earlier you get into that habit, the easier you’ll make your life in the long-run. If something doesn’t make sense, ask why it’s done a certain way. Worst-case, they’ll give you an explanation. A company usually has a good reason for doing things a certain way.
What you shouldn’t do is let conflicting personal shortcuts creep in, or to stubbornly hold on to the SOP of a previous employer. The result will only be a headache for your colleague in the other seat.
Feeling_Ad_1034@reddit
uhh... that's kind of the point of a checklist, no?
Honestly the way this reads it's more concerning that this dude stands out as "strict" for requiring checklist usage. Your mistake led to taking off with an incorrect flap setting, which is... kind of a big deal.
That being said, I don't see the benefit in instructors yelling at students. He could have calmly aborted the takeoff and had you taxi to a safe place and simply said "what flap setting do you have?" and it would have delivered the same shameful blow.
Also, the "punishment" of not knowing when you'll get to solo again seems silly. He should have continued the eval with you (had you taxi back and take off and continue) to see if there's any other weak areas and then did a thorough debrief with next steps and training required before you're allowed to solo again. And he should be having a convo with your normal CFI about checklist usage.
Just my 2 cents.
SerDuckOfPNW@reddit
You’ve nailed one of the most common causes of accidents and incidents, and revealed the importance of checklists.
Of you do something one way every time, then something disrupt that flow, the likelihood of an error goes way up. This can be anything from a preflight to getting up in the morning and getting ready for work.
Following a checklist ensures that you both
a. Do everything you need to do
b. Do it the same way every time to develop habits
zerofox2046@reddit
Don’t be a wimp. You just found your CFI. You want to be best friends. Have a talk and arrange to work with that CFI. Stay safe. Keep pushing.
porks2345@reddit
Written another way; my cfi caught a big mistake I made and saved our lives.
DudeIBangedUrMom@reddit
Yeah, so, all of this is the exact opposite of good CRM practices. And that's not even getting to the lack of standardization among instructors at your school.
ltcterry@reddit
CFI is a moron. But grounding you is correct.
Pleasant-Listen5588@reddit
At the end of the day dont take yelling personal. Its perhaps a bit unprofessional but you're in a potion to get yourself and others killed. Coming from a non aviation background, Military and LE, if you're about to do something dangerous its any means necessary to stop you. Ie stepping into a doorway and getting pushed, shoved, thrown, yelled at, etc ect it doesnt matter. At the end of the day they are looking out for you and they should expect the same thing from you. In my opinion aside from maybe yelling, he did the right thing. He let you proceed to a point just before no return and gave you chance to catch it. A super valuable learning experience. A lot of people have been killed from incorrect flap settings, trim settings, etc. And the real world experience you have now may serve as a subconscious reminder to check these items. Go back with a positive attitude and take it as a learning experience. We've all made mistakes and had close calls. Dont worry you're still on track just move forward and grow.
keenly_disinterested@reddit
My primary training instructor believed pilots should avoid doing anything dumb, different, or dangerous. OP decided to do something different, which proves the rule. It's incumbent on flight instructors to modify their teaching method to a given student. If you have been using flows backed up with the checklist then any CFI should be able to observe and evaluate whether you are doing it right.
I teach my students there is a difference between procedure and technique. A procedure is generally a list of tasks that must be accomplished to complete the procedure. A technique is the methodology used to complete a procedure.
The tasks for some procedures must be accomplished in order, but that's not always the case. Generally speaking, the tasks for emergency procedures must be completed in order, which limits pilot choice of techniques. The tasks for normal procedures, on the other hand, are generally not order specific. For example, the "Before Takeoff" checklist is a normal procedure. Every applicable task on the checklist must be accomplished prior to takeoff to complete the procedure, but for the average general aviation training aircraft there is no reason to complete the tasks in a specific order; setting the flaps before checking the flight controls or vice versa doesn't impact safety in any way I can perceive.
THevil30@reddit
I always have one answer to these kinds of posts: remember that you are a customer paying between $150 to $250 per hour for a service. You aren’t a schoolchild, you are an adult. If a CFI starts yelling at you, unless YOU have established a rapport and YOU think it’s acceptable, tell them to go fuck right off and fire them.
It’s valid for a CFI to provide constructive criticism and it’s valid for a CFI to react quickly and brusquely to an immediate emergency situation. It is absolutely NOT ok for a CFI to berate you or otherwise be rude to you.
falconkirtaran@reddit
For a multitude of reasons, you should avoid flying with this person. Waiting until a critical phase of flight to bring the flaps setting up and then creating a near emergency by yelling is not constructive or safe, but it also sounds like you feel intimidated by him normally and he pressures you to do things other than the way you usually do them, which creates errors. And on top of that, his advice not to re-check things is dangerous as hell, as you saw here. He seems to be teaching you that you should fly like a robot.
Anonymous5791@reddit
Yelling aside (different problem which we can talk about) is that the CFI did not create the emergency. OP did. Incorrect flaps settings for takeoff or landing is a major screw up, and can be a fatal accident in many scenarios.
As an instructor - or even a DPE, you need to let students get to the point where they’ve had every opportunity to fix the mistake before it becomes unrecoverable. When the CFI finally yanked the power, that moment arrived and he corrected it before it became a statistic.
I wouldn’t have yelled. He shouldn’t have yelled. I think he didn’t notice until too late that OP screwed up royally here and then he panicked.
That said? As a CFI, I would also have yanked the solo endorsement here. Not following the checklist in order, every single time is a failure to start with. In bigger planes, we often defer items; I don’t mind it if there is a reason in a 172 even. But you MUST call it if you do that. And I like to see something to remind you (like putting the checklist on the dash or over the thrust levers or something) to show there’s a deferred item.
I also expect a flow. Even from my PPL students. CIGARS as the run up. GUMPS prior to landing. And my pre solos sure better understand the difference between a call-response and a do-verify checklist. There’s a difference too between rechecking and second guessing.
CFI’s wrong here was yelling. But OP’s flying habits need significant improvement to be solo ready. I actually think original instructor is probably not great either if he’s not teaching checklist usage better than what he’s letting OP get away with.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
Checklists are checklists not DO lists. You check what you have done. You can always recheck an item - or look at it again - at any time. Sometimes your spidey sense will go off, and you need to listen to it.
This instructor missed the flap setting until after takeoff power was set. That is his job, to catch your errors, and as a student you will make a lot of them. It was your fault the flaps were not set, but it was his fault the flaps were not set before the takeoff and the takeoff was aborted. On the plus side, you have learned how easy it is to get flustered by something unusual going on in your cockpit, and to miss items even when they are read on a checklist. Work on even tighter checklist adherence.
Cmdr-Ely@reddit
"Stop yelling at me. I'm your boss."
qzy123@reddit
Yes!
mongooseme@reddit
You've gotten a lot of good feedback. I'll try to add just a couple of things.
Taking off with full flaps can kill you. That's been noted. If you can't get that right then you can't fly solo until your CFI can be 100% certain you'll get it right every time.
The major thing I haven't seen mentioned is your training frequency. You solo'd "last summer". So, over six months ago? Seven months ago? That's a long time. You're not completely starting over but this is not a success strategy. And you mentioned "we mostly fly during the summer" so was last summer not your first summer flying? Maybe your second? How long has this "train a little in the summer and then take the winter off" plan been going on?
If you want to make progress, you have to fly. Like, once a week. Twice is better.
If you are taking months off, you are going to regress.
The instructor's actions, by your description, don't sound helpful, but you are going to have to take some responsibility for getting yourself out to the airport and in the air, regularly, in order to make progress.
meticulouslycarless@reddit
Honestly, that’S.A. crappy CFI. Ask to not fly with him. That’s such a dumb reason to cancel the take off and flight. If he really wanted to do something productive, he should have let you take off with full landing flaps and asked if you noticed any performance differences. Then pointed out those flaps. You’re human, and most importantly, you’re still a student. You’re going to make mistakes and that’s ok. I still make plenty but I learn from them. You didn’t do anything wrong. That CFI just has a stick up his ass. He’s not a “tough CFI” he’s a CFI that seems to abuse his power and is mean for no reason. If you’re stressed and scared, you can’t learn. It’s in the fundamentals of instruction that we all learn.
Drop him.
Mammoth_Impress_3108@reddit
I understand what you're saying, but teaching them the aircraft will still be able to fly to a new student pilot could do more harm than good. They might interpret the situation as "full flaps are not recommended for takeoff instead of prohibited", or that taking off with full flaps is not as big of a deal as some people claim. A commercial student might understand the lesson if this happened, because they probably understand the severity of taking off with full flaps along with the nuance that it doesn't always end in a crash.
imapilotaz@reddit
You must not instruct. Taking off with landing flaps in many aircraft can cause fatal accidents. You sure as shit dont do that with a new PPL student. Maybe try it with a CPL or CFI student but sure as hell not someone with a handful of hours. They panic on takeoff you will die.
JFC, this is insane recommendation.
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
No certified aircraft is unable to fly with full flaps unless there are extenuating circumstances in the loading or environment.
imapilotaz@reddit
Yup but the margin is razor thin. Read some accident investigations. Many have died this way. A low time student pilot very unlikely has experience or skills to not die.
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
In a training aircraft? Mash the throttle and pin an airspeed at/near Vx. It’ll be fine. I’ve taken an 802 way over gross on a hot day with flaps all the way down and it was a change but once she was in ground effect I was gaining just enough airspeed to climb out.
flightist@reddit
Being somebody’s instructor isn’t an obligation to hand them rope to see if they’ll hang you both. If they notice the aircraft state and get a case of the ninja hands, you can’t count on being able to stop them from making the mistake worse by dumping flaps, etc., let alone exposing yourself to the normal risks of misconfigured takeoffs.
pilotjlr@reddit
You would not survive long as an instructor doing stuff like this. I don’t get why non-instructors so often have to be so confidentially incorrect on here.
Some mistakes are not OK, and this is one of them.
Standard_Arugula5465@reddit
Fuck that guy
qzy123@reddit
My preflight inspection deviates from the checklist order, but is always the same (from left wing root, counterclockwise) and is always verified with the checklist afterwards. Checklists during flight are done in order as they’re written (do/verify method).
I agree with others that by free-styling the checklists, you’re setting yourself up for failure. Especially if you’re headed to an airline, you’ll be expected to do the flows as written. Even if you aren’t, though, by sticking to the script you’re less likely to make a mistake.
Definitely double/triple check important stuff, though. Just like you’re constantly scanning your flight instruments, you can scan the rest of the flight deck to verify your configuration. Doing that out loud seems like a plus, so the person sitting next to you can cross-check what you’re saying. Even when I’m flying solo I talk stuff through out loud.
Upshot: do the checklists the same every time (ideally as they’re written) and ignore any instruction not to verify them.
looker94513@reddit
An instructor not liking a student that rechecking items on a checklist is an instructor i am not interested in learning from and if an instructor is yelling at me or anyone else, thats instructor needs to find a new line of work.
When i am lined up ready for clearance to takenoff, i am rechecking settings prior to lining up. On short final i am rechecking that the gear is down and locked and so far i have not landed gear up.
lisper@reddit
You instructor has no business in the cockpit. First, deferring an item on the checklist is common practice. But even if you don't ever defer anything, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going back and re-checking something. That is also common practice to make sure that you didn't miss anything, especially if you deferred items the first time around. Second, he almost certainly saw that you had the wrong flap setting before you pulled onto the runway. That plus his insistence on not going back to recheck anything set you up to fail, and waiting until you actually tried to take off with the wrong flap setting actually created a dangerous situation. And third, there is no excuse for yelling at a student for making a mistake. I know this is also common practice, but students making mistakes is a Thing That Happens. If you can't handle a student making a mistake without yelling at them you have no business being a CFI.
Unfortunately, dealing with asshole instructors is also something you need to learn as a student, because, unfortunately, there are a lot of them.
MangledX@reddit
Something sounds odd here. If he's as "by the book" as you claim, he'd have been perfectly content with you catching this during before takeoff checklists, which always has flaps somewhere in there. To be fair, taking off with full flaps is a pretty sure fire way to get yourself killed so he's not wrong for aborting the takeoff and being somewhat displeased.
Perhaps you've misunderstood his "do it right the first time" advice to mean "don't perform a pre takeoff checklist". I'd almost guarantee someone who's this strict is not advising that. Your interpretation isn't the letter of the law and if you didn't ask questions for clarification then it all falls back on your decision making.
While I do know there's some hard ass instructors out there, they can't ever argue with things being done right. This was not right.
Mad_Rooster_7164@reddit
You answered that, yeah?
Honey-Entire@reddit
Normalize naming the CFI for this type of behavior. You’ll save a future student from the same poor treatment and toxic environment
iamblichos93@reddit
Get a new CFI. This guys doesn’t know how to coach.
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
There's no excuse for an instructor to yell at you and make you feel small. That's bad CRM as well as being bad for you as a student. If I were you I'd avoid flying with him again if you can.
Not going back to re-check items is also really dumb. Even during lineup in the jet I sometimes take 2 seconds to make doubly sure that we actually took performance figures for the right intersection.
However, this is why we do checklists in order, as written, every single time.
Squirrelzig@reddit
How long is "awhile?" Did he set expectations on what needs to be done in order to get solo privileges back?
A CFI should never shout. There is just no need for it. Honestly, you should only have to do some remedial training with emphasis on the importance of flap settings unless there's something else I'm missing from this story. You might consider a new flight school.
StoutFlier@reddit
2 questions, what type of plane, and were you doing landings and then taxiing back for takeoff, or touch and gos?
zangler@reddit
Not to mention, many lists, literally have you going over the exact same thing...no change. The very spirit of the checklists is to do that exact behavior.
Also, I'm sorry...but this is a lesson. You were in charge of the aircraft...take charge! You got intimidated into not doing what was safest.
Take charge.
thesexychicken@reddit
A checklist is not a dolist. Professional pilots use flows to “do” and the checklist to “check” that all the tasks have been done. If this instructor is insisting AGAINST rechecking that a task has been done i would not choose to fly with him again.
CorporalCrash@reddit
Yelling at you is the wrong call, as instructors we are actually taught it is bad practice. He could have turned it into a learning moment where you reject takeoff, review the checklist items, then taxi back and try again.
It's not like you almost killed him or anything, the plane will still take off with full flaps even if it's against best practice.
InJailForCrimes@reddit
This guy sucks.
Mispelled-This@reddit
This CFI is just plain wrong. Yes, you should try to do things right the first time, but if there is ever any doubt, you run the checklist again. Catching mistakes like this is literally why we have checklists.
JohnKayne@reddit
“No going back to recheck” hahahah who the fuck is this clown?
First-Length6323@reddit
Some dipstick that never went airlines but dunks on brand new pilots by pretending to be an airline pilot
Nathan_Wildthorn@reddit
Fire that CFI. Period.
Low_Sky_49@reddit
You made a boo-boo. I hope it was memorable, because it’s one that in some airplanes and density altitudes can lead to fatal accidents.
A better CFI wouldn’t have let you take the runway like that, regardless of what their checklist preferences are.
You’re a smarter, better pilot now, who knows not to takeoff in the landing configuration, not to “complete” a checklist that you aren’t sure about, and not to fly with this schmuck again.
thetuxfollower@reddit
Unless you’re on fire or about to run into something shouting is never acceptable in a CFI.
Second, consider this a lesson in PIC authority. If you’re not breaking any limitations and you complete all checklist items, you have the freedom to do it however you want. And while you’re not actually the PIC as a student with a CFI, you can practice. And if you don’t like it you don’t have to go. If this CFI isn’t flexible to understand that, they need retraining or an attitude adjustment.
And ultimately, you’re paying for it. If you’re feeling poorly after a leasing, or you’re not enjoying it or getting any benefit out of it, stop paying for it.
imapilotaz@reddit
Are you kidding me? You are saying the CFI was wrong to abort the takeoff when the plane was in wrong configuration.
A configuration that has caused numerous fatal accidents because it can lead to stall/spins at extreme low altitude.
Wrong flap settings is only marginally better than engine loss, but can be MORE dangerous as the student with minimal experience may try to dump flaps inducing the stall or stall as they try to gain altitude since they arent climbing with obstacles approaching.
thetuxfollower@reddit
CFI in question has a rep for being prickly. Their reputation and persona thew off OPs rhythm. And then, instead of calling it out and making it a learning point, they waited until a critical phase of flight and then berated OP for their mistake. Should the CFI have let it go? Absolutely not. But they should have brought it up in literally any other way. This sounds like a CFI problem to me.
davidswelt@reddit
Taking off with landing / full flaps is not within limitations, and will kill you and your passengers if you do it in the wrong airplane... As a CFI you can let them make mistakes and learn from it (maybe if it's a light 180HP 172 and no terrain in the way?), or you can demonstrate safe behavior which is to abort the takeoff for wrong flap settings.
That operation should really standardize how they teach checklist usage though. No point in holding students to one standard one day and another the other. The outcome, however, must be safe, and taking off with landing flaps is generally not.
thetuxfollower@reddit
CFI in question has a rep for being prickly. Their reputation and persona thew off OPs rhythm. And then, instead of calling it out and making it a learning point, they waited until a critical phase of flight and then berated OP for their mistake. Should the CFI have let it go? Absolutely not. But they should have brought it up in literally any other way. This sounds like a CFI problem to me.
Originalname888@reddit
While training in stage 2 for ppl, I had a new instructor & he did something similar. I was landing, honestly everything seemed normal & without warning, he took the controls yelling ‘My controls!’ & proceeded to land & then went on to do several more odd things I won’t talk about here. I was shook, left in the dark on what U had done wrong, & was given no answer. I wrote a full page report on him & had a meeting with the Flight Director & Safety Chief. I got a new instructor & he was limited to training more advanced students
Chpouky@reddit
I'm not sure what kind of answers you're looking for ?
I'm no pilot yet but, according to your post it's really simple: you got out of your comfort zone of doing things, made a potential fatal mistake and are grounded for it, simple as that. Just don't make it again.
Now for the CFI "shouting" at you (which is quite subjective), well yeah if he really yelled at you that's no good obviously.
runway31@reddit
Taking off with flaps landing is a valid thing to reject for, but he doesnt have to be a dick about it. Checklists are good and should be used, but a sanity flaps and trim check before pushing power up is a good idea
ApartmentForRentt@reddit
If your instructor doesn’t like re-checks then get a new instructor
StarRanger25@reddit
Yelling was unwelcome… sorry you went through that.
I think that CFI is by the book because he may have had a student put themself in a bad position. (Just assumption) that CFI got shit for it.
Now if this was a checkride, you failed.
Again yelling at you is wrong, but long term this makes you a better pilot.
Globemast3r@reddit
Checklist discipline, great things to learn and if you are doing something out of order per a flow, fine but always go back and finger drag that checklist to verify completion. Some do not like a flow style and prefer following the checklist as written, but that method can be quite limiting, but to each their own.
Your CFI teaching not to go back and VERIFY SAFETY OF FLIGHT ITEMS is an idiotic and unsafe take.
OnionDart@reddit
As a professional pilot, you’ll see we all silently go back and double check stuff. We do our flows and then a checklist. But you’ll see a lot of us have developed habits based out of experience. Yes, the checklist may be complete, but we are still silently checking the critical stuff. Flaps are set while taxiing out, or maybe a quick double check of gear and flaps passing through 1000 on landing. What I’m getting at is you should be double checking things. The Aeronautical Decision Making model is a treadmill. You’re constantly reevaluating what you’ve already evaluated, so definitely double check things. It might not need to be stated out loud or by rerunning a checklist (and maybe it does) but double checking is a good habit. Sounds like this particular CFI is either missing that element, or their commanding presence is a roadblock to what they are actually expecting.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
Beyond whether this CFI is a meany, realize you DIDN’T follow the checklist step by step. There may have been an overreaction but you did mess up. Don’t just dismiss your part in this.
Wild-Language-5165@reddit
Yes I'm also confused by your checklist usage. Read and do till you get the flow and check down. If you need to go over the checklist again, even a few times, that's what it is for and what you do.
Twarrior913@reddit
Use this as a learning experience, because it is. You are correct to understand it’s a big deal, and will remain a big deal for the remainder of your flying career. I think you nailed why it happened, a normalization of deviance (or from how you describe it, a cultural acceptance of deviance) that ultimately led to a slip error when trying to follow the procedure. Also realize that the root cause of your error can cause issues well beyond just the flaps, and that’s probably the biggest takeaway from this. This also demonstrates why standardization is so critical, and you really can’t be blamed for that as you are literally still learning the process. I know looking back at my instructing days, I should have been much more of a stickler for standardized procedures at our school, but it’s also a cultural issue that takes a handful of waves of pilots to fix.
How you should move forward: really understand why it happened, and take concrete steps to ensure it has a lower chance of happening again. I would recommend flying like that “by the book” instructor, do checklists as written, don’t skip steps, have a fool proof way of doing things. This is kind of hard to get right at first (which is why it’s common to skip steps, do things out of order, etc), but once it’s out of the cognitive phase and into the automatic phase, it’s something you can’t imagine not doing.
Frost_907@reddit
Not gonna lie, that CFI sounds like an asshole. I don’t think there is anything wrong with setting up the plane and then checking everything with the checklist afterwards, as long as all the items get checked it’s perfectly fine. I also don’t understand the philosophy of not rechecking items, that just seems like a risky habit to me as all pilots are subject to making mistakes sometimes. If you aren’t sure if you checked something then recheck it, there is no reason not to and it sounds like doing so would have caught your mistake in this case.
I’d recommend not flying with this instructor again, they are teaching bad habits that will get you in trouble down the road.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
We mostly fly during the summer. In winter, due to bad weather, we rarely get any flying done.
After the winter break, I started flying again. After about 5 hours of flying this season, one CFI signed me off as okay to start cross-country training. I already did my first solo last year and also flew solo again this year. I’ve practiced cross-country flights multiple times with a CFI to the airport I plan to fly to solo.
Last week, I flew with a different CFI than the one who gave OK for Solo Cross Country. Before the flight, I told him I wanted to go to that airport one more time before attempting it solo. This particular CFI is known for being very strict and by-the-book. He really emphasizes doing checklists exactly as written—no skipping steps, no changing the order, and no going back to re-check things after you’ve completed them. His philosophy is: do it right the first time.
With other CFIs, it’s more relaxed. They don’t mind if I set things up earlier or slightly out of order, as long as everything is completed properly before takeoff.
Knowing how strict this CFI is, I decided to follow the checklist exactly as written. Normally, I set the flaps to “start” early on and then confirm them again during the checklist. But this time, I didn’t do that, I waited and followed the checklist step by step.
I completed the checklist, made my radio call that I was taking off, and applied full power. While I was monitoring RPM, speed, and engine instruments, the CFI suddenly pulled the power, canceled the takeoff over the radio, and started shouting at me. I was honestly terrified and had no idea what went wrong.
He told me to taxi back to the apron, and then pointed out that the flaps were still set to “landing.” My heart dropped. Somehow, while trying to follow the checklist strictly in order, I completely missed that item. And because I knew he didn’t like re-checks, I didn’t go back to verify it before takeoff.
Now I’m not allowed to fly solo for a while—no idea how long.
I feel pretty shaken by the whole situation. I understand this was a serious mistake, but I’m also struggling with how it happened and how to move forward from here.
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