I dont get why people want Communism and Socialism.
Posted by InternetWestern5987@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 65 comments
[removed]
Posted by InternetWestern5987@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 65 comments
[removed]
Ok_Screen_8739@reddit
I'm not fan of communism, but this is a ridiculous idea of it. First of all, farmers are some of our poorest citizens. Like teachers, cops, social workers, etc our society would cease to exist without them and yet we force them to get by on scraps. The people who have the most money are generally living on the investments they were gifted by their wealthy family members. They don't work harder than farmers or fast food workers. Quit buying the bullshit that the ultra wealthy are selling you. They're not your friend.
Due_Patience_7848@reddit
Farmers in the US are incredibly wealthy with factory farming. And even if they were poor, nobody's "forcing" them to get by on scraps. Anyone can quit their job anytime.
GnarlyGnarwhalz@reddit
Wild that you think a farmer can just quit his job anytime.
TheKorndawg720@reddit
Most factory farming isn’t from the “family” farms. It’s corporatism that allows Tyson to buy these farms and swallow the competition while their product is just shit in comparison to the family farm.
InternetWestern5987@reddit (OP)
Actually I was saying Farmers are some of the hardest working people out there. And In Communism people get Paid equally so People that do a less hard job will get paid the same as someone who does an extremely hard job. And I sed that as Unequal.
Ok_Screen_8739@reddit
And I said that it is not meant to reward less hardworking people. Our current system does that already.
Automaton9000@reddit
As of 2023, >97% of farm households are wealthier than the median American household, with a median farm household net worth of $1.4M.
They're not loaded, nor are they sitting on mountains of cash, but they aren't some of the poorest citizens.
Who is forcing farmers to get by on scraps? Prices are set by supply and demand (ie not force) with heavy subsidies on top. Farmers get subsidies to grow certain crops, they get subsidies to refrain from growing more than a certain amount or for taking land out of cultivation, they get the majority of their insurance costs subsidized by the taxpayer, disaster aid subsidized.
Obviously some farmers are poorer but no one is forcing them to be poor. No one is holding a gun to their head and telling them to lower the price of corn by $1.50 a bushel, except potentially the government on occasion.
What bullshit are the ultra wealthy selling us that we're buying? That they work harder than farmers? Some do, some don't. So what?
bngFXG3MDuau@reddit
Family farms usually own 10s of millions of dollars worth of land and equipment. Even if they can't farm worth a damn they're still multi-millionaires. That's not to say the governemnt should punish them for it but they make a choice to be farmers because they can retire at any point by selling. Checkout Clarksons farm, over 12m in land value even though he profited almost nothing off the farm.
Also teachers? cops? they have some of the highest salaries of workers with the best benefits and pensions and the most secure job positions of any modern job.
Business owners are on a different level completely though.
AitrusAK@reddit
My understanding is that a farmer’s overhead is drastically increased by overregulation And taxation. Government also makes their products harder to get good prices for because of down-the-road taxes and regulatory compliance costs that stores / packagers / other middle steps between farmer and endpoint consumer also have to factor in.
this became much more of a problem after the Great Depression as FDR instituted subsidies and programs to help farmers, but the temporary programs became permanent and grew ever more restrictive.
bngFXG3MDuau@reddit
American farms are much more capital intensive. The land is worth many millions, all the equipment also millions. Compared to the third world who can just drop seeds and wait for rain. Yes, the yields per acre are vastly different but the end results are still cheaper.
Urrrrrsherrr@reddit
Subsidized crop insurance, artificial market for grains, and the CRP are the only things that make modern farming sustainable.
Unless you have massive capital, a bad year will bankrupt you.
Not that i agree with government intervention into markets, just free market farming in the USA would look wildly different than it does today.
Cont1ngency@reddit
70-80 of millionaires in America are self made... I’ll be one by retirement and my wife and I have been on the lower end of the earning spectrum most of our lives. Hell, I still am. Just within the last couple years would I say we’re cumulatively earning “good money.”
Now, I’ll agree with you on the billionaires. Accumulating that sort of net-worth mathematically just doesn’t happen without a lot of help.
Where are you drawing the “ultra-wealthy “ line?
Ok_Screen_8739@reddit
Not millionaires - that's cute though.
guitarjob@reddit
Teachers and cops get a pensions worth millions.
Tristatek@reddit
Consent comes from power, power comes from wealth, and true wealth is productive wealth (land, tools, farms, industry).
The inevitable trajectory of capitalism is the consolidation of power in fewer and fewer hands, and without regular revolutionary resets, it will inevitably recreate the king. This is tyranny of one.
Managerial capitalism consolidates wealth and power under a few institutions manned by an aristocracy of bureaucracy. That is tyranny of a minority.
Communal ownership creates a tyranny of the majority which can be viewed as preferable to either.
Even communal ownership is tyrannical and must be replaced likely through violent revolution.
Jefferson's independent yeoman ideal would have in ideal conditions crested a tyranny of the most.
Ultimately, the goal of any true leftist is total self determination, that is freedom not just from the state, the community, and economy, but from nature, and the laws of reality itself. True liberty is to be the god of one's own universe, and should that come to pass, we would likely find yet more forces that oppress us beyond that which the human mind can currently comprehend. Liberty is not a true state of being, it is an ideal that we always aspire to, which moves further away as we come closer.
ThunderMuffin233@reddit
The socialists that I have known in-person are the types of people that would benefit the most from socialism (the types that take more than they give). All of them are of the type that are not well off in society (students, mentally/physically unwell, unemployed, etc). From my understanding, they want to receive free income so they can live to pursue their passions (passions which do not meaningfully contribute to the betterment of society). Some believe that work should be voluntary as a counter to the "if no one works, nothing will get done" argument. Again, this is only based on my interactions with socialists. I am not saying all socialists/communists are like this
Background-Singer73@reddit
We are living in a social state.
Adventurous_Today993@reddit
“Free” money
Good_wolf@reddit
I think it’s because they either think they’ll be in charge or that they’ll have some cushy job while others do the heavy lifting. There was a thread on Twitter a couple years back and a huge amount seemed to think they’d be teaching art or writing poetry or something similar.
lethal-liking@reddit
I offer the following not as a defense of socialism, but as a critique of you, and of capitalism.
A. "Fast food" doesn't exist without capitalism, nor do "fast food" jobs.
B. Your assignment of the worthiness of people based on your interpretation of the difficulty or completeness of their labor really deserves some introspection. I'm not all that chuffed with your apparent ranking of humanity, and your apparent presumption of superiority.
C. No one comes into this world of their own accord, but they do come with the same needs: food, shelter, oxygen. All of these things have been constrained and capitalized. In a capitalist society, if you do not come into this world with access to existing capital, then your only way to acquire capital is via labor. How labor is divvied up and valued is wildly inconsistent and profoundly tilted towards those with the capital.
D. The dogma that one must "earn their keep" is exactly the kind of shit that's been stuffed in your ears from day one, and you lack the imagination to think that there could be any other way. OF COURSE the capitalists have you convinced that everything else is worse, how else are they going to convince you to keep showing up to work for your yuppie food stamps?
Note: I identify as anarcho-libertarian. Today's "free market economy" is anything but free. Government is the least best provider of anything. A truly free market eventually leads to baby parts at Walmart. I for one am not willing to concede my entire existence is as a commodity that must acquire capital in order to be free. Your apparent belief that you are one is truly sad, and your worship of the billionaire class is pathetic. They are actively pissing down your throat. I can only assume by your fealty to their bullshit that you like the taste.
Adora77@reddit
I only want to say fast food and fast food jobs exist in socialism. We had hamburger joints and roadside fried chicken shacks back in the day.
Markets were full of standing room only eateries with fast food workers slinging crepes, donuts, pita pockets, you name it.
Every economy has a set of jobs for those who aren't much of readers. Some people prefer to clock in, work, clock out and spend time with the family.
The difference was fast food workers were able to live with the wage they got.
skiphandleman@reddit
While I don't subscribe to socialist or communist principles, I don't think their point of view is as simple as you have portrayed it. If you want to understand where their ideas come from and what they really stand for, probably best to do some reading. I always try to read up on opposing views. It helps me understand and also helps me make more informed arguments against those views.
bngFXG3MDuau@reddit
Listening to others opinions is a great hobby but unless they are objectively correct it's not a good way to create your worldview.
skiphandleman@reddit
Not everything in life is ojective. We all have to make some decisions based on incomplete or subjective information.
bngFXG3MDuau@reddit
We may not know everything in life and have to make informed guesses for some things.
If we have loads of evidence of something being false or bad even if we don't know the best option we can at least eliminate all the options we know don't work.
Again, if you want to study fantasy or history for fun, go right ahead. If you want to create new theories you want to study, fantastic. Just don't go around telling lies and misleading other people.
Ski90Moo@reddit
The world is grey. It is not black and white to comfort our logical psyche. Any time a human makes a decision or opinion it will be fraught with conflicting information and the answered is informed by the inbuilt bias. That answer is both objectively and subjectively true to the individual. It could also be objectively true to their society in general, but is not objectively true to another society or the world at large.
flipman416@reddit
A great argument is also speaking to people that left those types of govts. I would think experience is a much better argument than what some people might read in books.
Ok_Screen_8739@reddit
Fucking thank you. Never have I seen so many "libertarians" that just swallow what they've been told as I have in this sub.
flipman416@reddit
Ummm. I agree. But maybe we should listen to some of those people that have actually lived under those things that are now here in the US. That’s the real gauge. lol. Because honestly. I don’t care about John that lives on moms basement and has never ever left his neighborhood nor has he lived or visited any countries lol.
SadTumbleweed1567@reddit
This is a strawman. It doesn't help your position to intentionally not understand opposing ideas.
K31lover2@reddit
The biggest problem with communism and socialism is the government will always run out of everybody's money. Those systems have been proven ineffective time and time again. Anyone who wants those just want free stuff and to censor and oppress those they dont like. Look at Cuba, the USSR, or any Eastern bloc country. Everyone that survived communism wholeheartedly rejects it. College students who think they know what "true communism" is dont have a clue how the real world works. Cuba just announced the total failure of communism and is begging for international investors and is allowing private property to be purchased since to absolutely nobody's surprise communism doesn't work.
Hollirc@reddit
lol actually read the communist manifesto sometimes. The end goal is essentially a libertarian society where the state ceases to exist.
Just unfortunately for both ideologies the world is populated with humans.
sloppy_rodney@reddit
I’m just going to answer your question to the best of my ability. I’m not a communist or a socialist. I’m also not a libertarian, in the interest of full disclosure. I do have a political science background, however.
“I greatly believe for when you work you should get 100% of your pay.”
You don’t want someone taking from you what you have earned / created with your labor.
This feeling is actually very similar to the alienation that Marx describes under capitalism. The workers are working and creating the value, but it’s the owner who takes home the vast majority of the wealth produced.
So people are likely communists, socialists, for the same reason you a libertarian. They don’t want someone else taking what they built.
It’s just a different perspective on who is doing the taking.
Notworld@reddit
It's not a difference in perspective though. People who are socialists in America for example are just talking about a different type of socialism. Because America already has socialism. It's just working for billionaires and corporations. But it's framed like a choice between socialism and capitalism when it is not capitalism at all.
There's no world where it makes sense for the people who produce things to give money to people who don't produce things so those people can decide how to best spend it. Under threat of violence, I might add.
But I would agree if we have to have socialism, it would be better if it at least tried to do things for working people instead of corporations.
bngFXG3MDuau@reddit
I would argue the biggest winners of American Socialism right now are boomers. They've got massive wealth redistributions for healthcare, universal income, housing subsidies, even inflation is working to increase their networths. Yeah, farmers and certain businesses get some corporate socialism but 50% of the federal budget goes straight to boomers and poor people.
Notworld@reddit
Yeah that’s a fair point. I’d add them to the list. Billionaires, corporations, and boomers.
steester@reddit
Im not that well read, but I think if an owner is making so much money there is room and opportunity for competition. The goal to allow that can be to prevent corporatism where government favors certain businesses, or makes it difficult to start a competitive enterprise. We are extremely far away from that kind of capitalism I feel.
I am also intending to read about democratic socialism as it is taking up a prominent spot in our city candidates. Particularly as how it can be applied to affordable housing in a richer highly sought after small city.
As I get older I succumb to just finding the practical things that can be done. Libertarian wise this means limiting federal/global power over me and making government decisions as local as possible.
bngFXG3MDuau@reddit
I applaud you for reading and looking for the practical outcomes of policy. Many people have decided who they are on what the theory claims but the same ideas would result in the exact opposite outcomes if put into practice.
bngFXG3MDuau@reddit
I don't understand how anyone can work a job, with half of their earnings going to government then turn around and blame the employer with 5% profit margins for taking their value.
CorndogFiddlesticks@reddit
Good stuff here. One difference i would point out that is very important is that as a Libertarian, I don't want to be taxed, and I don't want to tax others. Socialists/Marxists/Communists want to tax others without their consent, and often taxing others based on political or socioeconomic criteria is centralized. They are ok taking food off others plates, where Libertarians are opposed to that generally.
Aba_a@reddit
Marx was completely wrong saying the workers created value. Value is in the mind of the consumer. The consumer of goods values goods and the consumer of labor values labor. As a consumer, I don't give a shit if anyone has worked to produce the good I want or if it has fallen from the sky. When I trade the money from my bank account for a product, I care about how much I am willing to give compared for how much better off it will make be become, not how much the workers deserve to earn. The value I give for it is a completely personal and subjective choice.
Expensive_Tailor_293@reddit
I can't tell if you're 16 or 68.
AitrusAK@reddit
I recently saw another post that said:
“If you're not a communist at the age of 15 you have no heart....if you're still a communist by the age of 30 you have no brain.
This is what Sowell figured out. Marxism/socialism/communism is very attractive to the adolescent, non-critical thinking mind. Anyone who outgrows using that adolescent mind to think with realizes the true nature of Marxism/socialism/communism and abandons it immediately. That's wisdom.”
Aba_a@reddit
I don't like that statement. It would mean no one could ever teach teenagers how injust socialism is.
RocksCanOnlyWait@reddit
The change is based on life experience.
With subjective or more abstract concepts, one's ability to judge the validity is weighted against their own experiences. Few teenagers (and many college students for that matter) have experience doing actual work or providing for themselves. If they do, it's usually a minimum wage retail job or basic manual labor. An idealistic idea like Marxism has appeal with that limited experience.
Usually what snaps people out of marxism is when they experience first-hand a slacker being rewarded disproportionately to what they received for similar work. Or experiencing corruption where they see an inefficient system, but are told they can't fix it.
AitrusAK@reddit
Fair point. I think that it's a learning process, and some make it through that process more quickly and learn early that socialism is bad.
I would imagine that those who do had some kind of key moment - a talk from a parent or other respected adult, had a negative interaction at school or in public that clued them in to how unjust it is, witnessed some kind of interaction in public that demonstrated lack of reciprocity, read an example in a book, etc.
Others never get that example, and school is supposed to correct that lack of exposure. Failing that, real adult life will teach them eventually, if they have half a brain to think through more than just first-order effects and have a semblance of decency within them. Otherwise, they fall into the "forever a victim of the system" demographic.
Business_Boat3201@reddit
The Rich need to pay their fair share!!!
15_Years_Then_Banned@reddit
It’s wild to make a claim that farmers never benefit from socialism.
In 2024, the government provided $9.3 billion in subsidy payments to farmers for commodity crops. Subsidies made up 5.9% of total farm earnings that year, with the most funding going to corn, soybeans, and cotton.
I would argue that farmers are the biggest socialists in the country.
flipman416@reddit
That’s vast majority of those people that want those things. Have never ever experienced these things. Ask any immigrant that lives in the US that escaped those types of govts. They’ll think you’re utterly stupid for trying to push that shit in places like the US.
NeoWayland@reddit
Because people want free stuff.
Beginning-Town-7609@reddit
That’s 100 percent the reason. “It’s just not fair. I deserve this and everyone should be equal, so they need to give it to me for free.”
blaspheminCapn@reddit
The world owes me a livin'
Aba_a@reddit
They stopped learning about this subject at the first occasion anyone has taught them anything about economy. Economy is an extremelly important topic in life and schools don't even touch it. So they felt informed enough and moved on. Economist get nothing freely informing people about what they know, but commumist get a lot from freely teaching communist ideas to people, they get their vote.
barn-animal@reddit
with years you learn that caricature of the 'other system' is rarely what is actually proposed.
I moved from teenage libertarian to nowadays more and more socialist as I became more disillusioned with the powers that be
Slowmaha@reddit
People are stupid. They like what sounds good
Notworld@reddit
Because it sounds good if you don't think about it.
bt4bm01@reddit
I think it’s lack of life experience. The majority of the people clamoring for it have never lived under the burden of communism or socialism nor have a fundamental understanding of how money works.
Warbeast78@reddit
Communism only really works on small scales. Once you get larger than 50 or so it breaks down. Human nature is to want to keep what you make and if you can't see the giod your work is doing for everyone it becomes mich harder to be cool with your hard work going away. Humans are also greedy and like tonhave nice things so as it gets bigger naturally a leadership group starts to appear and things start to become less equal.
LoopyPro@reddit
Jealousy, economic illiteracy, and failure to grasp the concept of 2nd order effects.
They think that the pie will be redistributed into equal proportions but fail to realize that the overall size of the pie will decrease.
quatre03@reddit
Cont1ngency@reddit
It’s entitlement and privilege. They think they deserve things just by nature of existing.
sam_I_am_knot@reddit
Do you mean the farmers that were surviving on government subsidies but are now failing without the government handout?
Safe-Assist-9866@reddit
Collectivism sounds great when you have nothing but the end result is everyone is poor.
PuzzleheadedAd6401@reddit
Same. That's why I'm in this subgroup.
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