Aside from the Steyr AUG, what other bullpup guns have been successful?
Posted by RepresentativeFig270@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 126 comments
Bullpups are known to have a divisive reputation among gun lovers.
Back then, militaries thought that they would be the future of warfare, only to find that they have many flaws in ergonomics and reliability.
France has/is replacing their FAMAS guns with the HK416, UK is replacing their SA80s, and Slovenia is replacing their FN2000s with SCARS.
But has there ever been a bullpup gun (or assault rifle in my case mostly) that was successful in terms of ergonomics and reliability like the AUG?
Let me know in the comments.
bmbreath@reddit
Tar21/x95 have been around for a bit and exported in not insubstantial amounts. It's not the best rifle ever, but works well and is reliable
RacerXrated@reddit
I actually really like the Tavor.
GodHatesColdplay@reddit
Me too. It's like if you asked Glock to make a long stroke AK
RacerXrated@reddit
Pretty good analogy tbh. They shoot much better than the internet would have you believe.
bmbreath@reddit
They're very over gassed, so they do buck around a bit more than you'd expect for a heavy gun, and you will get some gas in the face.
But also, due to this, they will feed from any reliable magazines forever.
They were made to be usable for any conscripted soldier and they definitely accomplished that.
I do own an x95. I do think it's a great gun. But, not the most pleasant of 556 rifles to shoot.
RacerXrated@reddit
Agreed. I still prefer an AR to it. But if for some reason I were issued a Tavor, I'd be content.
till-0807@reddit
As far as i know the tavor is still in use with the IDF to this day
bbcolumbus480@reddit
Israel is allegedly going back to M4s albeit domestically produced models.
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
They just ordered a bunch more X95s
UtgaardLoki@reddit
I know they just received a delivery. Did they also order a bunch more?
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
I believe that news was what I was thinking of.
till-0807@reddit
Ah, makes sense
DrBadGuy1073@reddit
Also used in like 15 other countries!
Sausage5urprise@reddit
I mean if you count still in use the L85, the A3 is actually a decent gun, you could also say the VHS-2 has been somewhat successful, the desertec MDR/WLVRN seems to be alright and of course the Tar is a recognised gun, also if you're counting them bullpup configurations of the AK seem to be successful and pop up all over the shop
BillWilberforce@reddit
Add on the FAMAS.
Not_an_alt_69_420@reddit
And the F200, Tavor, Malyuk and whatever the Chinese assault rifle is called.
Bullpups aren't very popular on the civilian market, but a surprising amount of militaries used them until they recently swapped over to an AR clone.
No-Permit-6666@reddit
All my homies love the malyuk
Sausage5urprise@reddit
I would but who designs a gun with a burst count that doesn't add up to the mag count, does look kinda cool though
OnkelMickwald@reddit
Someone who isn't German. Who cares anyway?
Sausage5urprise@reddit
I was making a joke but apparently people buthurt about the M16 or that I didn't bow to the FAMAS
OnkelMickwald@reddit
WE FAMAS FANBOYS HAVE BEEN HURT BEFORE OKAY
Sausage5urprise@reddit
You were destined to be hurt by having a gun that's actually cool under a nation that kills it's cool guns off
t3ddyki113r101@reddit
Burst fire came after mag was finalized. Like m16 to m16a1
Sausage5urprise@reddit
That is true however the burst still had no dictate over the round count I'm just saying personally if I had designed the FAMAS I'd have at least made sure the bursts were all accounted for in the mag
t3ddyki113r101@reddit
Well m16s were issued with 20 rounders in vietnam. In both cases they found made a good mag they wanted to make. The famas being rock in lock needed a straight mag and 25 is the most they could get with that restriction.
Sausage5urprise@reddit
Still getting a burst that only goes half way isn't ideal and I'd hate to expect a couple more shots than I get in a combat situation design limitations aside and the fact that burst fire is not a fantastic idea anyway (to me personally anyway) I'd still want it to either be a burst divisible of the mag or lower the round count to correct it
KeeganY_SR-UVB76@reddit
…The US? The M16 only got 30-round magazines later on.
Sausage5urprise@reddit
It also wasn't burst fire until later so the mag count didn't really matter
Hibou_Radiophonique@reddit
I t was to keep the magazine straight, after 25 you have to curved it
Sausage5urprise@reddit
Fair point however I counter with curved mags are sexy, like curvy women
Hibou_Radiophonique@reddit
I think that in those times of great prejudice, gunmaker that not having a straight mag was gay ...
Sausage5urprise@reddit
Aren't we all for a well designed gun, I know I have an unhealthy fetish for toggle locked guns specifically the Luger
Hibou_Radiophonique@reddit
I see what you mean, the have a retro futuristic vibe
I'm really into straight bolt action
Sausage5urprise@reddit
Yeah I love a nice toggle lock, I'm working on designs for Airsoft replicas at the least as been English if I lived out my fantasy they'd put me in irons and I'd never see the sun again 🤣, straight pulls are gorgeous though and we definitely need more
ASnakeNamedNate@reddit
They don’t have last round bolt hold open, so it’s one way to communicate to the shooter the gun is empty (by having a shorter burst/single shot following 8 3 round bursts).
Sausage5urprise@reddit
Sounds like they just made excuses on something they forgot to put in but I guess we all hate when you finish your load too quickly
ASnakeNamedNate@reddit
Meh, neither did any of the HKs or the AKs running around.
Sausage5urprise@reddit
Yeah I guess that's true I guess if the FAMAS was developed longer it would have been updated to include things like that, guess we'll never know considering they've given it the final march
BillWilberforce@reddit
It was in service for over 40 years and had several improved variants. If there were things that they were going to fix. They would have done it by now.
Sausage5urprise@reddit
True, still any platform that disappears leaves a what if
Spiritual-Hope-8167@reddit
Also if you’re using burst the last sequence will just be a single shot so you know you’re out of ammo
Sausage5urprise@reddit
I would hate to be the shooter in a high stress situation getting a one shot off and out especially having to charge the gun ontop of just ramming home a new mag
Thunderc01@reddit
Wasn’t it really easy to accidentally eject the magazine in the A1?
Sausage5urprise@reddit
There were a lot of issues with the A1 but yeah I think you could also possibly the easiest malfunction to sort with the A1 at least it never learnt to put a stovepipe back in the mag 🤣
forrest1985_@reddit
F2000 as well with Belgian SF and other units
Sausage5urprise@reddit
Yeah I do like some FN fish can't believe I forgot that one, I will take my lashings 🤣
Aids649stoptakingit@reddit
Sar 21. Gonna defend it cos honestly i love it. Take care of it and its a great gun even with just the base model. There have been times they tried upgrading but so far nothing. Its a good gun and dont fix what isnt broken. Successful as a civillian gun or exported? No idea, but for a gun that can be handed out to people with no gun experience beforehand, it works very well, even if its old and beaten up
Ok_Year_4721@reddit
HS Produkt VHS-2, currently the standard issue in Croatia.
jdgomez775@reddit
I believe the Iraqis bought some during the ISIS ordeal. Several modifications were done to improve some issues in the sand.
Ok_Year_4721@reddit
Yep, I did some more research (quick look at wikipedia), it apears that Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cameroon, Syria during the Assad regime and Togo during peacekeeping missions
UtgaardLoki@reddit
Let’s pretend the SA80 doesn’t count.
jdgomez775@reddit
The question was “successful”, not necessarily adoption was a measure of success.
jason_houn@reddit
TAR-21, to a certain extent. It’s an advanced rifle on a budget & very easy to maintain.
RepresentativeFig270@reddit (OP)
Does the Croatian VHS-2 also count as “successful”? I’ve heard people say it’s underrated.
The-Green@reddit
an underrated bullpup would likely be australia's EF88. it's a heavily modified AUG that fixes a good amount of its shortcomings (obviously except anything inherent to bullpups as a whole). the australians went back to debating if the AR-15 platform is still better when they still had the original F88, began upgrading to the EF88, got the first batches of the new rifles, and talks went away about switching to an AR-15 platform.
bbcolumbus480@reddit
Australia pretty much took the AUG platform to its definitive form. Is it domestic policy or part of the original license agreement that is stopping them from serious exports?
The-Green@reddit
i genuinely tried to find any info on this i can for you but i just can't find anything on the export version, the F90, for why it can't or isn't being more heavily exported. judging by how the gun industry is though i personally wager the later; it's still an AUG, just heavily modified, so it probably still falls under a lot of license agreements. you might find better luck with the australian subreddit, maybe someone who works in the government can give you a good answer as to why.
Jip_Jaap_Stam@reddit
The Beta Max-2 was better, but it never really took off
leto78@reddit
I would say that it is underrated. It was a strong contender for the FAMAS replacement. It has several export customers including 30.000 rifles to Iraq.
It is a modern rifle rather than a legacy design, so it doesn't suffer from a lot of problems that 80's bullpup rifles have.
jason_houn@reddit
Iraq is probably the biggest user of the VHS-2 outside of Croatia. Bosnia & Albania use it to a certain extent. Some African countries use it as well.
bbcolumbus480@reddit
Possibly the most extensively used after the AUG and Tavor. Specifically Iraqi special forces and police against ISIL and other non-state actors.
Xaxxus@reddit
Tavor, x95
P90 is technically a bullpup
ZeltbahnLife@reddit
Tavor. Israel may be planning on phasing them out, but multiple other nations have successfully run them for years. VHS, it’s had a good reputation with the Croatians and Iraqis, time will tell if it sticks around though.
UtgaardLoki@reddit
I’m not sure Israel is phasing them out. They just received a new delivery.
ZeltbahnLife@reddit
Supposedly they’re gonna be going back to domestically produced M4, but I have no doubt that the Tavor will continue to see service in reserves and internal security forces.
UtgaardLoki@reddit
Was there ever a plan for the entire IDF to use one standard rifle?
ocelot_piss@reddit
The SA80 has been in service for over 40 years. The reliability has been fine since the A2 upgrades. Whilst it has never seen widespread export like the AUG, I don't think it can be called a failure.
The FAMAS has also been in service since 1978 (7 years before the SA80) and is only being phased out now. It's seen a bit more export too.
The AUG no doubt is the most successful of the cold war era bullpup rifles, with Austria not planning to replace it any time soon, Australia still clinging to the EF88, and NZ only recently having replaced theirs.
Worth noting that 350,000 L85's were produced which is possibly more than the combined number of AUG/F88's made though.
That_Somewhere_4593@reddit
Even though everyone likes to dog pile onto the you know British bullpup, I think it's one of the coolest looking bullpups ever.
That_Somewhere_4593@reddit
R D B
Yes, Keltec.
Hour_Hornet_2644@reddit
Type 95
SebWeg@reddit
„Has there ever been a bullpup that was successful…“
Have you been living under a rock my friend?
Hour_Hornet_2644@reddit
Succesful in the military sure Succesful on the eyes, no never
Ophensive@reddit
The FAMAS was introduced in 1978, was the primary service rifle for the French until 2017 and is expected to still be in limited service through 2028
Vac1911@reddit
It’s worth mentioning that a big reason why they’re replacing is the FAMAS is because the factory that manufactured them (the Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne, or MAS for short) closed down in 2001. Eventually spare parts become very scarce which makes the maintenance costs sky rocket.
The French Military would essentially need to entirely rebuild the production line to return spare parts and repair costs to a reasonable level. It was cheaper for them to just order new guns.
PlasticImpact8515@reddit
It's not that the FAMAS failed, it's getting old and isn't the most advanced anymore. The FAL isn't a failure yet it was replaced, same with the M16 or any other rifle that got old.
oroheit@reddit
Thank you for informing me that the l85 is being replaced. I hate that gun. So ugly and British, the sight of it makes me think of mushy peas.
-Copenhagen@reddit
Mushy peas are awesome.
oroheit@reddit
Jarvis, cast this mans trunnion
bbcolumbus480@reddit
Successful in terms of production is the Chinese QBZ95 due to the PLA's size with a notable number of international clients while small but diverse.
357-Magnum-CCW@reddit
But the new rifle of the PLA is an AR pattern again.
Oltsutism@reddit
Bit of a disservice to call it that when all that the QBZ-191 shares with an AR is some ergonomic similarity and a rotating bolt.
TheGreatSockMan@reddit
I suspect we’ll start to see more and more QBZ95s in the hands of western opposed militant groups in the eastern hemisphere and maybe around Africa as well
bbcolumbus480@reddit
Since China doesn't export 5.8mm ammo the guns they sell are derivatives.
CyberSoldat21@reddit
FN F2000 along with the FAMAS, L85 and QBZ-95 are all successful (some more than others looking at you L85..) bullpup rifles in military service.
forrest1985_@reddit
L85A2 and A3 ironed out all the issues from A1. Its like saying M16 is awful because the A1 was
CyberSoldat21@reddit
A1 wasn’t awful per se. The L85A2 isn’t a perfect gun either. Still overweight for what it is.
The_First_Curse_@reddit
Yes it was.
CyberSoldat21@reddit
Not entirely no.
The_First_Curse_@reddit
The SA80 is very successful.
Ok-Buddy-9487@reddit
afaik Chinese army still uses their own QBZ95
forrest1985_@reddit
Its being replaced though with QBZ191
No-Bother6856@reddit
P90 has been in service for quite a while.
Prezimek@reddit
Niche, but deffo relevant.
ItchySnitch@reddit
P90 is in it’s own league
nedwired@reddit
What's happening with the FN P90?
Begle1@reddit
Best PDW of all time, in a world without the market for PDW's.
Too small for mainline military use, too expensive to acquire just for the rear echelon. It loses a lot of it's luster for civilians, when it needs to have a 16" barrel and can't be full auto.
That leaves what, military and police special operations?
-Copenhagen@reddit
I prefer the HK MP7.
The_First_Curse_@reddit
The age old argument. I love both.
-Copenhagen@reddit
At least I see the MP7 in active use.
Although now that I think of it, I actually have seen the P90 in active use.
357-Magnum-CCW@reddit
Its main purpose was to punch through Russian armor but it failed at that even then. There's video testing footage on YouTube where they shot several plates and soft armor and it performed underwhelming. 5.56 is way more effective. And the specialized ammo to do that is unavailable for civilians (and too expensive anyway)
CrimsonxAce@reddit
Barrett M95
Was used by various armies around the world and even appeared in a handful of video games.
Accurate_Reporter252@reddit
The M60 machine gun is/was a quasi-bullpup.
The action was behind the trigger, although the ammo feed is at the same location as the trigger...
The Danes are using them now...
https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/2028b0/the_danish_armys_new_lmg_the_m60e6/
The_First_Curse_@reddit
Bullpups still are the future with studies showing that they're just superior in so many ways.
theduderedditorguy@reddit
the L85A2 and A3 are doing pretty well in the British army right now.
Some1_Strange@reddit
Did they fix the initial issues?
The_First_Curse_@reddit
Yes like a LONG time ago.
Kiwi_Doodle@reddit
Ages ago
Tounushi@reddit
Another bullpup AR-18 derivative: the Tavor.
listok_berezy@reddit
Malyuk is quite successful
CardiologistGlad8892@reddit
Tavor famas
HistoricalVariation1@reddit
I would say the TAVOR, lots of countries use it and it still gets bought by militaries iirc
SPECTREagent700@reddit
Bullpup shotguns have been commercially successful since the KSG
Begle1@reddit
And a few government entities have purchased them too.
Which still amazes me, and I wonder if it amazes KelTec.
SaXaCaV@reddit
Keltec makes enough money to not have their coke binge wear off. Once it does, they will be just as confused as everyone else.
OkRush9563@reddit
Kel Tec: You're telling me, we made these?
Everyone else: Nods heads yes.
Kel Tec: ...We only remember making half of these.
Looking4arts@reddit
SAR - 21 by Singapore Technologies, still being used by Singapore's military.
TheMachRider@reddit
The Glock series has been really successful.
TJfromSG@reddit
ST Kinetics' SAR 21 rifle. Even though it resembles an AUG, it takes a different clear polyner magazine that is still chambered for the 5.56x45mm round. It was originally designed for the soldiers of the Singapore Armed Forces, but was still exported overseas to a few countries, like Morocco for example.
youkilledkenny3211@reddit
The Keltec ksg has been used by South Korean military and other police forces
https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/1ro8yb6/french_raid_police_officers_on_the_island_of/
Bran_Nuthin@reddit
P90
357-Magnum-CCW@reddit
Australian f88 variant of Steyrs Aug. Re-designed and manufactured in Australia by Thales Australia.
monsooncloudburst@reddit
SAR 21
MostlyOkPotato@reddit
Tavor. Hellion. Both in military use.
Kellendgenerous@reddit
Tavor
somewhatbluemoose@reddit
the French used the FAMAS for awhile
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