ULPT: You don't ever need to pay medical bills in California

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

The OP is correct - Medical debt cannot appear on credit reports in CA. But the hospital can still sue you, confiscate your assets and garish your wages. The hospital may not do this, but they will sell the debt to third party collectors who will certainly pursue this if the debt is large enough. So this ULTP will only work for small amounts of medical debt (i.e. too small for anyone to care about)

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Crazy-Agency5641@reddit

Lots of caveats it seems. Make sure you don’t have any assets that you can’t afford to lose if you do this ULPT

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choctaw1990@reddit

Even if you have to rack up huge amounts, you need major surgeries and all that, if you're judgment proof (no job, no income, you're living in a Squat or long-term couchsurfing with relatives in a paid-for house, sort of thing, dumpster-diving or depending on free charities and food banks for ALL your food and clothes and toiletries and basic needs, sort of "life") they HAVE to discharge the debt as uncollectable. Most hospitals have a "charity care" department that takes care of this. They don't like admitting it but they do.

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FelineOphelia@reddit

you're living in a Squat or long-term couchsurfing with relatives

Does the king bed i share with my husband count? I don't work and we put assets in his name or other protected measures like llcs and trusts

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Crazy-Agency5641@reddit

Unfortunately debts are shared in marriage

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Objective-Amount1379@reddit

That person is wrong. Anyone (including a hospital) can try to sue you. Winning is a whole different matter and your primary home is protected from almost all creditors (even in bankruptcy).

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

Correct. That is the homestead exception. Your car may also be protected. The problem is once you get a judicial order signed confiscating your assets, it doesn't matter what you credit rating is. No one will ever extend you credit again.

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NekoNoNakuKoro@reddit

Still, if it's a choice between life and death, I'd rather live with debt than die cuz I couldn't afford surgery.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

In the US (or pretty much in most countries around the world), it is illegal for any hospital to deny anyone life saving measures. So you wot'e ever have that choice. All doctors will save you. And they will send you a bill afterwards.

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anti-everyzing@reddit

A lot of public hospitals in third-world countries will let the patient die if they can’t pay. Public hospitals are severely underfunded; the patient has to buy their supplies, pay the physician, etc., or they are not getting anywhere. Private hospitals won’t even take them.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

Exactly. So it basically works if you debt is so small that no one wants to sue. But if you rack up a bunch of small debt with different doctors, a single large company can buy it up and decide it is worth it to sue you.

Alternatively you have to have no worthwhile assets or wages (i.e. zero assets and be paid illegally so it doesn't show up as a W2). the problem is even if you have no assets, once you get sued, you have to declare bankruptcy (even if you have no assets. The bankruptcy then destroys your credit anyway.

So yeah , not really a functional ULTP. Otherwise everyone would do it.

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BAMitUp@reddit

With the caveat that I haven’t researched fully if this is feasible: What happens when you actually bill an insurance company that you own by proxy through whatever legal shielding necessary? That way the debt to the hospital is owned by a corporate entity and not an individual. You continue with OP, but if the hospital (debt collector) sues, they’d have to sue the insurance company. Who cares the company loses? Let it fold and get absorbed by junk securities, you get the health care you need at the cost of incorporation paperwork.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

It doesn't work that way. First of all, Doctors offices do not bill any random insurance companies. They only work with a select group of companies. If you claim you have XYZ insurance that no one has ever heard of, the doctor's office will not bill them. They will ask you to settle the payment with them and then tell you to bill your own insurance company.

Also, even if a legitimate insurance company denies your payment, you are still liable for it. That is one of the first papers you sign when you go to a doctor's office. It states that you are ultimately responsible for all remaining balances

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TheGeckoDude@reddit

This is so fucking evil. What a world we live in. What a sick sick system

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pichael288@reddit

I broke my ankle two years ago, was trying to pet a kitty cant and stepped off the concrete and shattered my shit. Needed immediate emergency surgery, luckily my company let me stay on the insurance. $98,000, I was on the hook for like 8k.

They kept calling me and all I could say was "If I didn't pay the doctor who actually did my surgery then there's no way I'm paying you scumbags buying up medical debt". That went on till exactly 2 years later and they sent me a "fuck it, just give us $500" letter and I'm no longer in debt.

Just don't ignore them, answer the phone and give excuses and just make it clear you would pay if you could. Make sure it's known you will go to court, they count on you not doing that.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

Sorry you went though all this. Kudos on getting a $500 settlement on $8000 of debt. I heard they often settle for 10% of the debt.

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stevenmc@reddit

Sign a contract handing over all your assets to your spouse and have them dock 100% of your wages too. Debt collectors cannot get what is not there!

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

None of this will work. Your spouse assets are usually considered comingled with your assets when you transfer assets back and forth. This means that they are also subject to seizure.

You can transfer you assets to someone else you trust, like a parent or best friend. But this would be considered as hiding assets during bankruptcy and you will subject to jail time if it is discovered.

Similarly spouses cannot garnish wages without court orders. Wage garnishment is done through legal orders and there is a strict hierarchy of how wages garnishment is distributed. You can convince your employer to pay you 'under the table' and not report the wage at all. Of course, the IRA might try to fine or arrest both you and your employer for that.

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normal_mysfit@reddit

People on SSDI and those that receive VA can not be garnished for any debt besides overpayment or child support.

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adamdoesmusic@reddit

I had a hospital try to pursue me for about 200 bucks because I went to an emergency room, didn’t get checked in but signed in, and waited 5 hours until I decided that if I was gonna die I’d do it home rather than sitting between two screaming people who were there for obvious mental distress. I told them to pound sand, told collections to pound sand, and eventually it fell off my credit entirely.

I wasn’t gonna pay it purely out of spite for their stupid system - they didn’t render services, I shouldn’t be paying.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

You are 100% fine in this case. No credit bureau ever reports medical debt under $500 (Source - https://library.nclc.org/article/latest-keeping-medical-debt-out-credit-reports)

Additionally, No debt collector or hospital will pursue you in court for $200

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adamdoesmusic@reddit

lol they certainly tried to pursue me on paper tho

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Objective-Amount1379@reddit

A hospital can in theory sue you. To claim they can confiscate your assets is misleading.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

What do think happens when someone sues you for a bill lol?

They have to prove that you owe them money in a judicial trial. Once a Judge agrees that you owe them money, the judge will order you to pay them the money you owe them. That is the judicial ruling from the trial. If you refuse, then the judge will sign a judicial order to confiscate your assets and garnish your wages. At that point, you can either declare bankruptcy or your assets get confiscated.

Hospitals rarely sue people. They will simply sell the medical debt to debt collectors. Debt collectors will be more than happy to sue you.

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uhhh206@reddit

To add, the trial is largely a formality in the event that they choose to sue, because if you don't show up then there will be a default judgment. This will be the same result as if you lost after putting up a defense, so the mindset of "if I close my eyes then the scary under-the-bed monster isn't there" doesn't really work if it gets to that point.

Not to say that they will actually sue for the debt, but it's a possibility -- and if they do, you'd better be mindful of it. Medical debt bankrupting people isn't the result of people who weren't smart enough to ignore collections.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

Correct. Even worse, medical debt is super easy to prove in court since hospitals keep detailed health and billing records. So even if you show up in court, you are guaranteed to lose.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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UnethicalLifeProTips-ModTeam@reddit

Your post or comment was removed for violating rule 10: No Solicitation / Advertising / Transactions / Self-promotion of any kind.

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Teract@reddit

JFC this post is so stupid.

Every hospital is federally mandated to provide emergency medical care regardless of insurance or income. That was passed by Regan in the 80's.

If you have a medical emergency and no insurance, the hospital will treat the emergency and kick you to the curb. No follow up care required by law. No prescriptions required to keep you alive. If you're diabetic, you can't get free insulin, but they'll gladly amputate limbs and try and wake you from a coma. If you have severe allergies, they'll use epinephrine and monitor you until you're stable, but you're not getting a free Epipen for the road.

California doesn't have a free healthcare loophole. It just doesn't allow your medical debt on your credit report. That doesn't stop hospitals from suing you and taking everything you own. That doesn't require curing diseases or treating life threatening illnesses. It just means after you lose your house, your new landlord won't have seen your mountain of medical debt.

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NewTitanium@reddit

How often do hospitals sue people for stuff like this in California?

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Teract@reddit

They sell the debt and the collectors sue.

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NewTitanium@reddit

How often does that work?

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blazenation@reddit

I owe about 540k, and got a bill that they added $46000 in interest while being unpaid 😂. I had a traumatic car accident and was in the hospital for about 3 weeks, then again 6 months later for complications and spent 2 more weeks and got opened up in the same spot (44 staples, zipper from belly button to chest)

I kept trying different financial services and help negotiate, I made around 110k at the time. The monthly payment exceeded what I made per month. It hasn't been on my credit report, this happened in dec 2024

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Gansaru87@reddit

Yeah, I owe about 15k from 3 separate emergency room visits over a few years. The cost is insane, for a blood test IV bag and EKG they charge my insurance like 18-25k.

I haven't paid them a fuckin dime out of my pocket.

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GuidePersonal4501@reddit

If you owe $5,000 that’s your problem. If you owe $500,000 that’s the banks problem.

But seriously that sucks. What a garbage world we live in….

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L3tsG3t1T@reddit

Taxpayers problem. Who so you think funds most hospitals? Federal, state, county and city.

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blazenation@reddit

it wasnt even my fault. if I knew and had a choice to save my life, I would've chose not to save it. they made the choice to save me, why is it my problem?

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blazenation@reddit

not my choice to save my life. they decided to do it themselves. I almost died on a saturday night and woke up monday morning with 45 staples, a catheter and high AF on dilaudid and oxy. not my choice. I dont even remember the crash. I have high anxiety that causes panic attacks when im in a car.

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WartOnTrevor@reddit

The reason your care costed so much is because of buttheads like OP who don't pay THEIR bills, so the medical system has to make it up somehow.

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zjunk@reddit

No, it’s because we’re spending 100 million dollars on presidential golf trips, a billion dollars a day for a ridiculous war of aggression in Iran, a trillion dollars a year for the military, and 4.5 trillion for tax breaks for the wealthy in the BBB. We absolutely could have decent healthcare for everyone but this country elected a conman and a clown instead of insisting on serious candidates from across the spectrum. Think what you want about politics but let’s not pretend these things are all unrelated - healthcare doesn’t operate in a vacuum

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SQLDave@reddit

Respectfully, from a staunch single-payer, public healthcare advocate: I believe your conclusion is wrong. It posits that the reason we don't have decent universal healthcare is because it costs too much, and that if only we weren't spending skajillions of $ on stupid things we'd have the money for uhc. While it's mathematically true that we'd HAVE the money... there are still too many in this country who are dead set against uch. They don't want to spend money helping others, because, you know, they're all just lazy shiftless bums who should get a job already.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

That sounds horrific , I hope you have recovered your health.

Do you know if the hospital has sold your debt to debt collectors. That process takes 2 to 4 years. Once that is done, debt collectors are even more eager to settle for lesser amounts. They usually buy the debt for cents on the dollar. You might have better luck negotiating with them.

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blazenation@reddit

It was pretty bad. The stress and anxiety from these bills, and others like from various doctors. ambulance ride, another bill for ultrasound. so many bills from different people I dont even know where to begin. Then the main bill from the hospital. The audacity to add interest was just a nail. I was so depressed and stressed out from it.

I had a ruptured bladder, broken collar bone and got my gallbladder removed. I cant even urinate the same, and have life long complications. Nothing has been sold to debt collectors yet from what I can tell. I was hit by an uninsured beater car spun out and hit a light pole at 55mph. my car was totalled.

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blazenation@reddit

Will they sue with me with such a large debt balance? What if my pay has changed to a lower amount? Can they garnish me for 10+ years? I need to have a consultation but im pretty sure once they do ill claim bankruptcy

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

I am so sorry, that is terrible. I hope the other uninsured driver went to jail. Your own auto insurance may pay a small amount to cover your bills, but it is usually only around $10K to 50K.

So this is how the process works. First, you can ask the hospital to settle for a lower amount. If you don't settle, they can decide to sue or just sell your debt to collections. That process takes 2 to 4 years.

Once the debt is sold, you can negotiate with the debt collection agency. They will often settle for less too, sometimes as low as 20% of the amount. Unfortunately, if they do to court and you lose, then the judge will decide how much to garnish and for how long etc. If you have no assets other than your house and car, then you can declare bankruptcy. If you do, then future wages cannot be touched.

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Pretty_waves904@reddit

Do this to large hospitals but not small offices just trying to offer good care.

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BMS_Fan_4life@reddit

Does this work for those traveling to CA from another state and getting care?

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Nytshaed@reddit

Even if this actually worked at scale, I don't think it's ethical to bankrupt and collapse the medical system, even if you think there should be universal healthcare in some form.

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Forgottengoldfishes@reddit

You must have no idea how many health care institutions hide their wealth.

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plant_slinging_ninja@reddit

You're right, but it's doing that to itself lol

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FungiAmongiBungi@reddit

Hopefully this is new. About 20 years ago a hospital in Berkeley sent my bill to debt collection company and it went on my credit for a $2000 bill.

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mocha_lattes_@reddit

Important to note this is for emergency medical care. Most places require you to pay upfront specifically for this reason to avoid having to chase you down for a collection they can't really do anything about. So you can use this if you have an emergency and need to go to the ER for treatment but you won't be able to use this in most other scenarios.

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dmethvin@reddit

In every state, emergency room treatment doesn't require proof that you can pay, or that you are a US citizen. This is required by the federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA).

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PeakQuirky84@reddit

This is required by the federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA).

Goodness me, what socialist president signed THAT into law???

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choctaw1990@reddit

It's why the destitute and other people who get turned down for Medicaid type of things, just simply don't seek regular medical care for chronic illnesses because they can't be seen by a regular provider because they can't pay upfront, so it escalates and they wind up in emergency situations; heart attacks and strokes because the person couldn't go to a regular G.P. and get and KEEP their blood-pressure medications, is the usual scenario here. Diabetics, too. Other chronic disease holders who could have been saved if they'd just not been turned away from "regular" care and wound up in the Emergency Room instead. Where they won't treat "chronic" illnesses anymore. If your're (like me) constantly running out of blood pressure medication because you can't afford it, AND you can't afford a "regular" G.P. visit either, the "ER" won't give you a prescription with refills anymore, they refuse to. At least in some states, probably all the states anyone would want to know about let alone live in.

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Revolvyerom@reddit

If they receive federal funding/accept medicare etc. Technically somewhere could just make a private hospital that refuses medicare/aid and denies such patients.

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ChardKaleBrocCabbage@reddit (OP)

I think that's not always true -- I had a (non-emergency) dermatology appointment, with a referral letter from my physician, at a notable hospital system in the Bay Area. They sent me a $400 bill, I was shocked because I have insurance. I probably would've been fine with a small copay or something, and I think I might've paid $10 when I arrived.

So I think it works fine if you're in my situation too -- you have insurance and have an appointment, get hit with a bullshit bill. No need to pay.

I spoke to a friend who confirmed this works -- she got the occasional bill collecting letter for a year or two and then they just stopped. Obviously, nothing on the credit report.

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coupdelune@reddit

I mean, the doctor can refuse to see you and discharge you as a patient for unpaid bills. And they likely will. Not a good thing to fuck up your patient doctor relationship over money.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

Yeah, the same doctor will definitely not see you again. But presumably the OP is going to a different doctor now.

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coupdelune@reddit

Problem with this is they will eventually run out of doctors in their area to go to.

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justbecauseiluvthis@reddit

Not in the bay area

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ocelotrev@reddit

I 100% support what you doing. Doctors and Healthcare administrators are complicit in a shitty system that makes up prices and scams people at every opportunity. The bots downvoting you want to keep Healthcare from poor people.

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fruderduck@reddit

Chief Cheeto changed it; medical debt can now be on your credit report… unless maybe CA has some state law that overrides his EOs that congress rarely refuses.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

Yeah. Also, this is not a CA thing. No credit agency reports medical debt under $500 (https://library.nclc.org/article/latest-keeping-medical-debt-out-credit-reports).

However, if you do this multiple times and a single debt collectors buys up your debt, they can sue in the future.

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mocha_lattes_@reddit

That's why I said most places. Any doctor office that wants to stay in business is going to be smart enough to charge you upfront so they don't lose out on the money. Also if you have an outstanding bill you won't be able to go back there.

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choctaw1990@reddit

I'm a British subject, and as such I can say that yes healthcare is a basic human right.

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L3tsG3t1T@reddit

What if you are an illegal? I'm assuming they don't care much about credit score

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Afraid_Solution_3549@reddit

As others have said you can still be sued and the threshold for lawsuit is getting lower all the time. It used to be you were probably safe under $5k but not anymore.

When I get bills for $55 or $170 or whatever I trash them but don’t ignore large bills if you have them.

They WILL sue you and if you don’t respond, default judgment and garnishment order eventually.

If you get sued don’t ignore it. File an answer and go to mediation.

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thrwwysnl@reddit

Does this also apply to foreigners who are visiting California and need emergency medical care while there? Or only for California residents

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tom_yum@reddit

Just give them a fake name and address in another country.

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thrwwysnl@reddit

How would one handle it if they ask for ID? Just say you forgot to bring it?

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tom_yum@reddit

Carry around a fake guatamalan driver's license or something. They won't know what it's supposed to look like.

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actualhumannotspider@reddit

Anyone who needs emergency care, regardless of residence.

This doesn't apply to something like cancer treatment, though.

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RedditsDeadlySin@reddit

Ironically so is North Carolina. Just saying.

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Far-Income-9905@reddit

I'm 45 and have never paid my medical bills. I'll pay the copay but if you bill me you'll never see it. I never have enough $$ left for that. I'm in NC so maybe that's why it hasn't bit me yet?

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brainhack3r@reddit

Side story: I actually had to go to the emergency room about four months ago and didn't have health insurance.

They treated me like absolute shit.

I had broken some ribs and I was in a lot of pain, and I was really worried about damaging myself if I moved. So their proposal was to inject me with painkillers and then kick me out of the hospital.

But the way they phrased it was that the painkillers were medicine. Like that the painkillers would cure me.

But really, all they wanted to do was just give me painkillers so that I would get into an uber and leave.

The only way I put two and two together was I know quite a bit about medicine, and I interrogated about what they proposed.

God, they're a bunch of fuckers. I was so angry.

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tasteothewild@reddit

This is one reason doctors leave California (we did) to practice elsewhere.

Why would any physician practice medicine and/or surgery and not get compensated for it?! No recourse to collect unpaid bills and have to lose-out on accounts-receivable?! No way!

Notice that lawyers have made sure California has not allowed this for unpaid lawyer bills!! Ha ha, lawyers don’t work for free, but people expect doctors to by just refusing to pay bills.

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Teract@reddit

Any data on doctors leaving California? I'm not talking about sensational fox news reports. Can you cite any data to support your statement?

Hospitals across the country can't refuse emergency medical care due to federal law passed by Regan. In California, hospitals can still sue over medical debt. You can still loose your house over it. It just won't appear on your credit report.

Dumb boomers.

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

I agree with you, it is totally fair for doctors to be compensated fairly. The real problem is really insurance companies that don't pay for treatment and auto decline claims with AI.

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80hz@reddit

The system is designed to deny claims to increase shareholder value and let you die I don't even think this is unethical

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

Even worse is insurance companies deny claims and medical treatment using AI. So basically a machine can autoreply and decide you don't need medical care even when your doctor determines you need it.

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80hz@reddit

You're legally allowed to see which medical professional denied the claim and when you do that they typically approve. They're just hoping you get too tired and don't fight and they can just take your money

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

You are correct. The problem is that the insurance company uses AI to generate the 'decline care' letter and the medical professional simply rubber stamps it. Because AI is doing the 'work' one medical professional can 'review' thousands of 'declined' cases every day and rubber stamp it. Then it takes the treating doctor and the patient many hours to fight it. The AI system can be tweaked to decline a certain percentage of cases.

Then, like you said, many get tired and give up or just pay out of pocket. This is very unethical. We should create laws that prohibit the use of AI in declining insurance payments to sick people.

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NetWorried9750@reddit

Everything about the American healthcare system is unethical, might as well meet them in hell where they are.

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Green_Yesterday3054@reddit

What if the hospital sues you?

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cherryribs@reddit

True, but very unlikely for a hospital to sue you for like $300. If people are racking up thousands in medical debt, then…

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Large-Hamster-199@reddit

The problem isn't even the hospital suing you. Hospitals simply sell your debt to large debt collecting agencies. These large agencies will coordinate with each other and once your debt reaches a certain amount, they run a financial check on you and then sue you (if they think they can get something out of you).

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