Farah: Car Companies Are Abandoning the Everyday Enthusiast
Posted by sid41299@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 332 comments
An opinion piece, but an interesting read nonetheless. I remember thinking along the same lines a few years ago at the beginning of the EV boom, that internal-combustion would go the way of the horse (a fun pastime exclusively for the ultra-wealthy), rather than die off completely. It's a shame...
ASV731@reddit
I know Reddit hates Matt Farrah, but it’s refreshing to read an article like this where the author’s voice clearly comes across rather than some fake inflection-laden AI slop writing.
mettaxa@reddit
I don’t get the hate. Loved the one takes. Some of my favorite automotive content out there.
cookingboy@reddit
He became relatively successful and is opinionated, and there is nothing the internet losers hate more than successful people with strong opinions.
Same happened to Doug.
I hope the same doesn’t happen to ThrottleHouse guys
mbn8807@reddit
They probably hate that Matt comes from money too.
pleasedonotredeem@reddit
Reddit loves to forget that "you don't get to choose your parents" goes both ways. For a guy born with a silver spoon, he sure seems to work pretty hard.
ScipioAfricanvs@reddit
He works more than I would lol
TurboFucked@reddit
He's pretty honest about it though. I'm not a fan of his, but I occasionally watch his content and he's admitted that he was only able to build his car storage business because of his family money/experience/connections.
There's a huge difference between people who own their privilege and those who try to paint their blatantly wealthy upbringing as "middle class".
mbn8807@reddit
Agreed and it doesn't bother me at all but people get butthurt about these things.
bullet50000@reddit
Doug wasn't my cup of tea, but I get why his main stuff made sense.
The issue for me is he started getting into "your opinion is wrong" territory when people disagreed with him, which really is something that annoys me.
MzunguGuy@reddit
He’s an entertainer, so he exaggerates his persona for comic effect. It’s exactly what Clarkson does, for the same reason.
BrownGhost10@reddit
He’s a character on his podcasts, very chill and different on other podcasts.
No-Locksmith-9330@reddit
Nah, he doesn’t have the balls to act like his true self on other podcasts.
DameOClock@reddit
So there’s never been any valid criticism of him? Anyone who doesn’t like him is just a hating loser?
Are you by chance a teenage girl? I can’t imagine anyone over the age of 16 having this mentality.
guten_pranken@reddit
What is ur criticism of him?
DameOClock@reddit
I don’t have one because I’ve never watched his content. My gripe is with the “anyone who criticizes a successful public figure is a jealous loser” mentality of the guy I replied to.
Bonerchill@reddit
I think a lot of people aren’t honest with themselves, though.
When I see people I perceive as equally or less intelligent being more successful than me, there’s certainly a tinge of jealousy. I try not to let it color my commentary, but careful reflection would probably show that it does.
aprtur@reddit
That's not what he was saying, though. Even people who have provided reasonable personal opinion on why they don't watch him or don't want to watch him on this sub are downvoted into oblivion. I think he's got a point that people don't even want to have an open, healthy debate on this sub half the time - they want a binary yes or no answer that goes with the hive mind and try to banish people for either having a different opinion or even engaging in discourse in good faith.
big_cock_lach@reddit
Doug was always a love or hate him kind of person due to his quirky and cringey style. I don’t think it’s a good reason to hate on him, but it’s why a lot didn’t really like or vibe with him from the start. Some people love that style, some don’t. Each to their own. I wasn’t a personal fan of this style, but he did give honest reviews for unique cars and did a good job.
However, he did really start to rub most people the wrong way around once he became more opinionated and arrogant. There was a period where journalists would refer to his opinion saying he was always right, and that seemed to quickly go to his head. That, or maybe just other journalists constantly saying that caused people to get this perception of him. Either way, I don’t think it was so much due to his success, at least not on its own, those who already hated him due to his quirkiness (silly reason to hate someone though) were probably still annoyed to see him do well.
Innocent-Bystander94@reddit
Doug’s a boring asshole who gets basic shit wrong.
I guess I’m part of the problem lol
YalamMagic@reddit
I really don't like his content at all but him being an asshole is just objectively wrong.
meh_whatev@reddit
I get if he’s not your cup of tea but an asshole? Lol
Moth92@reddit
"Everyone who I don't like is an asshole"
KeyboardGunner@reddit
That's reddit for ya
Proper_Speaker9662@reddit
This is a great example of typical reddit braindead slop. There is nothing of value here in the comments lol.
aprtur@reddit
You're not alone - I never understood the allure for him beyond people that have zero car knowledge, and even then, there's stuff that's wrong like you mentioned. I guess he comes across fine as an entertainer if you like his personality.
Notacop9@reddit
He is great for when you are actually car shopping. Quirks and Features without having to deal with salesmen.
aprtur@reddit
There's no new information there that isn't present in other reviews or manufacturer websites, though, so I don't get what's special or unique to him about this.
cokecaine@reddit
That's what it is. He's quirky and focuses on shit non-car people will find interesting, so he attracts a fairly wide audience.
aprtur@reddit
Even at that end, I've noticed he's divisive to people - and I think a lot of that comes down to him being too repetitive (he's a meme of himself with the over-emphasized "this"). I personally find him a little grating, but do appreciate the fact that he is a guy who appreciates a wide variety of cars. Not my cup of tea, but if he gets people to consider stuff beyond a bland econobox SUV, then I'm glad the push is out there for people to experience what old-school car people enjoy.
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cookingboy@reddit
If that’s the issue you have with Doug then you never liked him anyway.
Which is totally fine. My comment was about people who turned on him after he became successful.
spongebob_meth@reddit
Doug is cringey clickbait slop that makes content for people who know nothing about cars.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
I think he’s actually really good at his job. Unfortunately because it’s YouTube, that means certain habits develop
EloeOmoe@reddit
In general he is a bit of a Biff, and that is just unappealing to some people.
I've fallen off his content because it's much more of a lifestyle of the rich and famous vibe than automotive now.
But the internet holds a grudge against him for two significant issues that happened years ago.
One is that he got scammed by a guy with a fake vintage Ferrari but heavily went to bat for the scammer. Learned his lesson there and was largely innocent in the whole situation.
The other is that he was doing a one take forever ago, having a good "spirited drive" and someone on Angeles Crest was doing something very dangerous: towing logs with just a chain behind a pickup at very slow speeds (or were stopped). Even though that guy's irresponsibility almost caused Farah to have an accident, Reddit blamed Matt Farah for it.
Penguinho@reddit
Are you talking about Donnie Callaway? In that situation, I don't think he personally got scammed; Callaway gave him VIP treatment and attention and used the attention to scam other people. Farah wasn't involved beyond hosting him on the podcast several times and having him work on the Countach or guilty in any way, but he did blow off some folks telling him that Callaway was shady and had a history of scamming people.
EloeOmoe@reddit
No, this was maybe 10 if not more years ago.
Some guy had a fake Ferrari and people online deduced that it was a repro. Farah went to bat for the guy pretty aggressively until he was proven that it was indeed not a real Ferrari.
Donnie does have a history of shady dealings. But that's a separate conversation.
Adam_RSX@reddit
It was a tv presenter who claimed his car was genuine but also said the hood latch was broken so they couldn't see the engine. Matt took the guy's word and defended him, because why would a guy who is recognisable from television lie about something so lame. But it turned out the guy was actually full of shit, but somehow people decided Matt was the real bad guy
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
He was early on being anti-Tesla, and given that fan base, surely that is a factor. Maybe that’s an entirely separate faction of haters
The3rdbaboon@reddit
He’s not anti Tesla he’s anti Musk and he’s has proven correct imo.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
It’s not possible to separate the two
EloeOmoe@reddit
He's always, and even recently, said they were good cars. He's never been "anti Tesla", he was critical of Musk when Musk started buddying up to this administration but when his wife was fired from Twitter. He has been critical of Tesla and their PR/marketing stuff but he's also been critical of "self driving" cars in general.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
To me, that stuff reads as a qualifier he would give before making criticisms, knowing how passionate Tesla fans are (eg vocally defensive). He’s always been a skeptic AFAIK. He was skeptical of the cybertruck when it was first announced in 2019. Here he is on Rogan https://youtu.be/Oq_646gW8Qk?si=70R2UM9ULnrn9l4_ Look at the comments on that 3.1M view video, all from Elon fans bashing him, before Tesla bought Twitter and before he got involved in politics.
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IguassuIronman@reddit
Towing logs guy was definitely in the wrong but Matt was also speeding around a very blind corner. He wasn't innocent in the situation
-seabass@reddit
The catalog of one takes is honestly an important historical record of the automotive world. It allows you to compare a huge number of different cars because Matt is a consistent measuring stick in all the videos.
Madder_Than_Diogenes@reddit
I agree. The Ford GT video I rewatch from time to time simply for the enjoyable first person perspective of how it feels to canyon carve in.
https://youtu.be/tbHUAS1d9yQ&t=5m22s
Sexualrelations@reddit
He did a 800whp 335i and it’s so fun watching him and the owner losing their minds over it.
Weird_Tower76@reddit
Lmfao wow this is exactly what I was thinking of when the commentor above mentioned his One Takes. That 335i hauled so much ass but he wasn't a fan of the stock breaks it still had lol.
-seabass@reddit
My favorite of all is the Honda N600 with the V4 swap from a VFR800 interceptor and the subframe and underpinnings of a Miata.
beamdriver@reddit
He's a smug and self-satisfied, annoying dick. I used to really enjoy his stuff, but he's morphed into a caricature of himself that I find really hard to take.
He's an inveterate starfucker. It's embarrassing how much he throats guests who are even a little bit of a celeb.
He wears his politics on his sleeve. Despite the fact that I agree with him about most things, the way he goes about it is just grating.
He's extremely credulous about anything that supports his worldview. Try being a journalist maybe and don't get your views of the world from shitty podcasts.
Other than that, he's fine.
EloeOmoe@reddit
Same. And while I know he has a personal ax to grind with Elon Musk, but there was a time there where almost every episode would have five to ten minutes where he would guffaw and gloam and grouse about Musk.
He was a dude who wore leather and had ugly side burns and made black cock jokes and it seems like he has overcorrected from being a douche.
Jonny too.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
When was that? I thought he was always known as a hater.
EloeOmoe@reddit
His wife worked for, and was laid off from, Twitter when Elon bought it.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
and you’re saying he liked Elon / Tesla prior to that?
BoofMasterQuan2@reddit
Can’t stand jonny
EloeOmoe@reddit
I appreciate him most of the time but there's something weird about a guy who hobnobs with the .1% on a regular basis and drives million dollar cars for a living threatening about "when the revolution comes".
The3rdbaboon@reddit
Same. I’m sad they stopped doing them. He said they didn’t make any profit but how much can it cost to make a video with no crew and 2 guys just driving a car and filming.
Wafer420@reddit
afaik he stopped doing them because a lot the cars that people kept bringing were sketchy af
The3rdbaboon@reddit
I’m not talking about the old days, I’m talking about the press cars and when they started doing the two takes which was even better then they just canned it because apparently it didn’t pay.
Dp04@reddit
They are still doing car reviews, in the canyons, like always. They just seem to be far pickier about what they review.
Or, as this article calls out, there’s just fewer enthusiast vehicles out there now.
The3rdbaboon@reddit
He’s frequently posted Instagram “reviews” of cars I’d have very much liked to have seen a video on. The recent facelifted Aston Martin Vantage for example.
Dp04@reddit
It’s possible longer videos are coming. They often have a backlog and they have to release certain videos out of order because of embargoes.
But yeah, Matt has been very open that YouTube just doesn’t make money anymore, and their volume has dropped off. Porsches and hot takes are basically the only videos that hit for them anymore, and that sucks.
The3rdbaboon@reddit
I’ve wondered if it’s because it’s such an old channel maybe the algorithm just passes over it.
Dp04@reddit
They talk about not wanting to do the things the algorithm likes. They’ve started playing the thumbnail game, but they really don’t want to dive into the hot take vids that rule the algorithm.
I think Matt is just ready to be done with it. He gets some access and it feeds the podcast which is still kicking, but R&T gives him a lot of that.
Smoking tire is probably short for this world.
exdigguser147@reddit
The algorithm hates them, Ive been subscribed for ever and I watch most of the pods abd videos and YouTube doesnt even show me the tst car review videos. I have to go look for them on the channel
willpc14@reddit
He talks about them on his podcast. He's pretty transparent that the long form reviews don't pay particularly well nowadays, so they've pivoted to prioritizing the podcast (and his car parking business).
rudbri93@reddit
remember the camaro with one functional brake?
MomGrandpasAllSticky@reddit
How could I forget, downhill in the canyons into a corner and Matt looks over at the owner
"... bro "
juwyro@reddit
He also was just bored of doing it after so many years. There were some sketchy and halfassed cars too.
plug_in_atheist72@reddit
This is what he’s said on the podcast. Sketchy cars and inconsistent viewership.
gimpwiz@reddit
Opportunity cost is real; he wasn't just doing it as a hobby but trying to earn money off of it. He found things that earn better money.
apaksl@reddit
Opportunity cost. I think the biggest time sinks are arranging with people to have a car available, and then driving to and from the filming location. All that time could have been spent doing something either more profitable or more enjoyable.
willpc14@reddit
Which in Matt's case is the TST Podcast and parking cars.
spike021@reddit
he's become increasingly obvious it's more about what he can do to earn money rather than putting out content for the sake of putting out content for people to enjoy. he's basically said as much in videos and social media before.
ketamine_bolus@reddit
It's more the cost of that vs the cost of doing something more profitable.
That plus I think they had a few sketchy situations with the car owners
phr3dly@reddit
I don't hate, but I certainly find his defense of car ~journalism~ payola to be self-serving and wrong-headed. And it's also annoying that his podcast has more ads than actual content. Which he claims he has to do to keep the lights on, but with the exotic cars he's buying, it seems like he's more just milking that sweet sweet revenue while he can.
birdseye-maple@reddit
He does 1hr30min podcasts with less than 10 minutes of ads you can pretty easily skip, I don't get what the big deal is, TV is way worse.
phr3dly@reddit
I actually timed the ads one time. It was way, way, way more than 10 minutes. Some people have a higher tolerance for that than I.
-AbeFroman@reddit
You can't control how you're born, but it rubbed me the wrong way when I found out he comes from a .1% upbringing. Suddenly it all made sense how he's able to build top-of-the-line car storage facilities in the heart of LA. He's not doing that on YouTube money. Then he stopped doing One Takes, which appealed mostly to the common enthusiast, and now almost exclusively does high-end exotic reviews.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
It could be a lot worse, he could be Dan Bilzerian
EloeOmoe@reddit
He's largely a self made man in the sense that his dad has not really bankrolled any of his ventures.
BLT_sammiches@reddit
You people wish you were born into a successful family, but it rubs you the wrong way if it happens to someone else. You also are OK with youtubers making a lot of money, but not running a large company? Two bad opinions in a row.
HoldingForGenova@reddit
My opinion has always been that he's a better writer than a host. I appreciate what he's built on camera, going all the way back to the early Youtube days, but there are folks I'd rather watch and folks I'd rather read, and he's the latter, because he's a truly excellent writer.
badcrass@reddit
Do they? I've followed him for years.
Mr_Chode_Shaver@reddit
Something about a silver spoon trust fund kid millionaire telling you about how the world works just rubs some folks the wrong way.
Doesn’t matter if it’s about cars or salsa. Their opinion is out of touch with reality.
NotoriousCFR@reddit
He can't help that he was born into money. He is incredibly transparent about his financial situation and privilege, and frankly, advocates for the working class more than most less wealthy journalists. Aside from the fact that he personally has owned vehicles of a much higher caliber than most of us will ever afford, his takes are pretty in-touch IMO
Personally, I'd rather hear a rich guy just admit that he's rich than a rich guy try to conceal his past and fake being a working class Joe. Sincerity always wins.
bigev007@reddit
He's like that now, but he didn't used to be. Some people won't acknowledge that people can change for the better so they still see that guy from SuperSpeeders
strangebrew3522@reddit
He addresses this often, and it's actually pretty respectable IMO.
There are countless people who pretend for the camera and online crowd to have grown up lower class or had it rough when they were younger, only to find out they come from money. Matt has frequently said "I was born on 3rd base, and my life has been made incredibly easier because of the safety nets I have in my life.". I think in today's world of influencers and social media stars, that's a very rare and honest take. He doesn't hide that his family has money. He doesn't hide that he went to rich kid school, and he doesn't hide that he's had help, but that doesn't make him a bad person. Rather than fucking off in life and being a rich trust fund kid, he builds a social media channel, built a brick and mortar business from the ground up, and writes for a magazine. He has an encyclopedic knowledge of cars, and is respected in the automotive world.
There are some things he does/says that makes me cringe at times, but overall I'm a big fan of both him and Zach. They make a great team.
bigev007@reddit
He used to be a gigantic a-hole. He's definitely not anymore, but some people won't accept or acknowledge personal growth
cookingboy@reddit
I don’t think he’s ever come across as condescending or even lectured much. And I found his opinions to be usually well thought out and reasonable.
Also he’s always been very self aware of his privileged upbringing and he actually built his own brand and his current car storage business himself, and his own collection is super modest when compared to the actual trust fund YouTube guys who just buy every hyper car that goes on sale (you know who I’m referring to).
Do you have any concrete examples where you think his opinions are out of touch?
lickstampsendit@reddit
I agree he’s always been self aware. But saying he built all of that stuff himself is a stretch. Anyone who can not work a day job and dedicate full time to YouTubing has some sort of benefactor.
Mr_Chode_Shaver@reddit
When he was still doing the smoking tire test drives regularly, he would often talk down to owners who weren’t fancy enough for him. Normally younger folks who built or restored a rare car, with their own hard earned money and time, and he would be downward comparing to some million dollar super car.
One in particular MR2 drive got taken down because he just spent the whole drive saying how it wasn’t as cool as an Evora, even with the same engine.
cookingboy@reddit
That’s not out of touch. The very fact that he produced contents with those owners and their cars makes him the exact opposite of out of touch.
If he only drove brand new manufacturer press cars you wouldn’t even have this complain.
You don’t just like what he has to say about those cars.
While I’ve not driven those project cars myself, his opinions of “I respect the effort, but the results aren’t very good” is extremely believable given everything I know about those cars.
FurryHolocaustof2049@reddit
I went to his YouTube channel, and nearly all their videos from the last few years are brand new press cars or insanely expensive restomods lol
willpc14@reddit
Because those are the cars that get views and revenue. This is an business problem, not a TST problem.
lolastrasz@reddit
I am indifferent on Matt Farah in general. He's fine. I don't watch his content anymore, but that's mostly algorithmic, not based on taste. But this irks me:
What? No.
Being "in touch" means understanding and being able to empathize the choices someone makes when they are young, love cars, don't make a lot of money, and are have a different set of influences. It means having gone through the same thing yourself or at least "getting" it.
It means understanding the cultural heft of certain cars and why people love them. It means understanding why the group of tuners huddled at your local Cars and Coffee break their necks when they see a piece of shit drift missile vs. yet another guy in an exotic.
It doesn't mean you have to be like them, or have the same tastes, or have the same opinions. You don't have to like some kid's MR2. If it's not for you, it's not for you. But spending 10 minutes talking about how it sucks because it's not an Evora means that you do not get it. You're in the car, yeah, but you're a tourist.
Going into a modded MR2 and saying, "this doesn't drive like a $100,000 car," is functionally no different than going into a Miata and complaining that there's no back seat. You're correct, but you've missed the point.
RCR made an entire channel that rips apart cars and makes fun of them, and I often hate his opinions, and yet I never in a billion years say he was out of touch because even if he hates the car, he sounds like a car person being deranged, not, like, someone who can't comprehend the concept of why comparing a shitbox to an entry-level exotic is a bad idea.
If Matt Farah ran a channel about food and not cars, he'd be similarly out of touch for walking into a decorated pizza joint and complaining that no one was serving him wine, unlike his favorite LA eatery. Just going there, just showing up, would not mean he was "in touch."
Using that same metaphor, Anthony Bourdain was similarly wealthy (if not more so), but could you imagine him doing the same?
Once again, no dog in this fight. I don't own an MR2. But I remember seeing that video and just thinking he came off like a douchebag. I mean, even he thought that, given it's hidden.
I know people like to me contrarians (especially toward the majority opinion of Redditors) but I think it's completely understandable why Reddit has a grudge and brings that video up.
EloeOmoe@reddit
Yeah, he tells us all the time.
birdseye-maple@reddit
Weird take because Farah is really upfront about being born on 3rd base and having a lot of advantages others don't have. And he's not condescending or rude, really he is self deprecating if anything.
MiniTab@reddit
He’s built several businesses and clearly works his ass off.
I grew up in a lower income house and paid for everything myself. I have absolutely no problem with Farah, quite the opposite actually. I really enjoy him and his business partner (Zack Klapman).
ASV731@reddit
That’s a pretty broad brush. Is anything he wrote untrue or different than the opinion of a “normal” auto journalist?
Reddit_User-256@reddit
Each to their own but I also followed his stuff for years and watched a lot of the podcasts. Every other month he'd talk about "rich assholes" whilst owning a $2m car collection and coming from extreme wealth himself. A lot of his takes come across as quite performative IMO, the tipping point for me were the live podcast shows they did in Texas within the last year or so.
FurryHolocaustof2049@reddit
The TST podcast has gone massively downhill since it turned into "The Matt Farah Show". I listened to an episode recently after not having listened for a few years, and it was just him talking about his new obsession with ostentatious pens, the insane repair bill for his Countach, and him answering questions from people who pay him for the "privelege". Absolute waste of time.
ballmode@reddit
The subtle like WTF you doing bro? To Zack when he mentioned he was around people playing Magic the Gathering, and then started talking about a pen convention like that was any better or cooler.... sigh. The only people he will stand down to are celebrities and Camissa.
Dp04@reddit
Him being wealthy does not preclude him from talking shit about rich assholes.
He’s very open about his privilege. It’s very weird to hate someone because they were born into money, especially when that person is very vocal about the country needing to be better for the middle and lower class.
lmao_what@reddit
I really like TheSmokingTire podcast and listen to all of them but could not stand those live in person ones like you mentioned
hellooverlasting@reddit
I’d rather have an authentic writing riddled with grammar mistakes rather than AI slop at this point. Once you read AI slop enough, you’ll see it and notice it pretty much everywhere.
To the readers whose first language isn’t English, it’s okay to make mistakes, I’d rather have that versus AI slop. The more you write, the better you’ll get long term anyways.
phr3dly@reddit
I don't mind the article, but I also can't help but think that we continue to live in the glory days of automobiles.
Look, I love MTs as much as the next guy. I have, literally, 5 MT cars in my garage. E30 Convertible, 996 Cab, S2000, 718 Spyder, and 996 Turbo. But I think it's also time to realize that MT != Enthusiast. That correlation is no longer accurate. I've got enthusiast friends who love the hell out of a GT4 with PDK. Is a C8 Z06, which can be had with 670HP, very lightly used, for under $100K really not an enthusiast vehicle? What about an M2, or as Farah mentions, the 86s? Supra? Miata? Are we not going to recognize the new crop of interesting EVs as enthusiast vehicles? There are tons of relatively affordable enthusiast vehicles out there. Inflation adjusted, the prices aren't even that crazy.
Things change. A friend's dad thinks that anything made after the 80s wasn't any good. He's completely wrong. This article, to me, reads like old man shaking fist at clouds because his definition of enthusiast is no longer everyone else's.
Bonerchill@reddit
I still equate manual transmission (and internal-combustion engines) with greater enthusiasm because the owner is willing to compromise performance for engagement.
People who do that are more like me, and I like spending time with people like me.
Vhozite@reddit
I actually somewhat agree with this but from the other side - I don’t call myself a car enthusiast bc there is an underlying assumption that I must like certain things/have certain opinions (liking manuals or hot hatches, hating EVs, etc) that I personally don’t. Also both irl and on the internet I find most car people absolutely insufferable. Way too much of it is focused on, ironically, hating other cars.
Bonerchill@reddit
The thing for me is that I like walkable cities, intelligent emissions control legislation, public transit, EVs as commuters.
My commuter is a second-gen Prius because it’s an automotive cockroach.
I just require that my enthusiast cars are extremely analog, and I am insufferable about that point.
gimpwiz@reddit
I also own 5 stick shift cars. My wife is very patient.
A stick shift doesn't make it an enthusiast vehicle and lack thereof doesn't make it not an enthusiast vehicle.
Buuuuuuut I only want sports cars with a stick, so.
Proper_Speaker9662@reddit
My advice is to not pay any heed to reddit hive mind. I could not possibly have any less respect for the consensus here. Reddit is not even close to reality, and in addition it's a weirdly toxic and hateful place. Upvotes do not correlate with truth or popularity in real life whatsoever.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
How much of the hate was because of his now-vindicated anti-Tesla slant?
EatSleepJeep@reddit
A lot. He saw Musk coming years before most people got wise to the lies and there was pushback.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
I would bet he got called a shill for “Big Oil” by that particular vintage of Tesla fanboys
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
I remember a case study way back in HBR that looked at what happened to Sears, in that they were making far more money as a financing arm instead of actually selling products. But of course, you need to sell something in order to have a financing arm, and the juggling act ran out eventually.
I left the corporate world a decade ago so I could actually look at myself in the mirror again, so I don't have a first hand look at what AI and the rise of vibe coding is going to do for a lot of the people currently living in $250K Sprinters making content, but I think there's going to be an existential threat for a lot of people who were laughing at union trades just a few years ago. COVID was a sign, that there was a stark difference in those wrapping burritos and the techbros who eat said burritos.
Eggith@reddit
Matt has never really hesitated to talk about the income inequality as he got older. A stark contrast from most guys in his position that I've talked with.
lordtema@reddit
Watching TST with Doug DeMuro on is always a treat, they constantly riff about billionaire toys like the Valkyrie for example. Matt is very open that he grew up in great privilege
CloudsTasteGeometric@reddit
As much as I like Doug his wealth insulation has really started to turn me off. Talking about G Wagons and Modenas like they’re “pedestrian.”
The dude started as one of the more relatable YouTubers/writers who covered exotics, but he lost the plot.
Carstuff392@reddit
I think in LA G Wagons and Modenas are Pedestrian.
TopHatTony11@reddit
If you’ve listened to the episodes that he had his dad Rodger on as a guest, it’s easy to see why he has a good perspective on privilege. Rodger is a G, plus Ralph Lauren gave the dude a fucking Vanquish.
fissionmoment@reddit
I will say, there was an episode where his dad talking about being on the board of Walgreens I think and giving all employees a 5% pay raise and acted like it was an incredible act of virtue from the board. How they went above and beyond for the common man. My eyes were rolling into the back of my head.
Other then that, the pods with his dad were really interesting.
Weird_Tower76@reddit
You've definitely never ran a business. A 5% pay raise company wide of a franchise that massive is likely hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
fissionmoment@reddit
I found it, it was CVS. They raised all salaries to at least $15/hour by July 2022. Per Roger this was courageous and would cost the company $600 million a year.
I think we can all agree it was very selfless of CVS to take such a big financial hit on their $4.17 billion in Net Income for 2022 and the $8.34 billion in net income in 2023.
Luckily they still had some cash left over to do $5.5 billion dollars in stock buy backs between 1/2022 and 1/2024 and payout dividends at $0.55 per share 4x during year 2022 and 0.605 per share 4x in 2023.
bakedpatato@reddit
he also uses his platform to support stuff walkable cities and upzoning and the Sepulveda Pass underground rail option all as a form to reduce income inequality; he really puts his money where his mouth is
nucleartime@reddit
Every car enthusiast should be in favor of people not needing cars. The more people need cars, the more traffic you have to share the road with and the more market leans towards function over fun.
pleasedonotredeem@reddit
I think it was Jason Cammisa who talked about the concept of "junk miles." Like junk food but with cars. Junk miles are miles you are forced to drive to work or for errands, that you don't enjoy and are unpleasant.
As opposed to driving that you do enjoy and choose to do as a hobby.
I think car enthusiasts should be as supportive as environmentalists of eliminating as many "junk miles" as possible from our lives.
Everytime some crusty boomer asks me how I could be such a fan of EVs when I'm a car enthusiast, I tell them - I'm a fan of EVs for other people because that means more more gasoline for me.
Obviously I'm a big proponent of EVs for other, non selfish reasons as well, but that really seems to shut them up.
amidoes@reddit
If cars aren't needed they will be taxed higher since it will be seen as a luxury
YeonneGreene@reddit
Yes, and?
Drzhivago138@reddit
IDK about car companies, but the big farm equipment brands are like this too.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Deere trying to bring in office scabs when their factory employees went out on strike a few years back was hilarious.
gimpwiz@reddit
Who was laughing at union trades?
pleasedonotredeem@reddit
I'm taking this personally.
taticalgoose@reddit
I always find it funny that Farah complains about people at the top taking everything meanwhile he has a 7 figure car collection, paid a grand+ to have Porsche make custom sill plates that say "cuts hair fast" on his Spyder (can you afford $1k+ for a joke?) and a single family house in one of the most expensive markets in the US and Zack is stuck in a apartment with a $15k E46 M3.
Speaking of having blinders on, Farah completely ignores that part of the reason there are fewer affordable cars is the cost of regulations. EV mandates forced billions of dollars in losses because market demand wasn't there but damn Ford for trying to get some of that back with the GTD. Increasingly stringent safety and emissions regs mean that the economics of developing modestly priced sports cars are worse than ever.
Am I saying the government is to blame for all of this? Absolutely not but a serious look at why we are where we are with enthusiast cars would include all angles but Matt claims to hate billionaires (while praising "heavy hitters" with enviable car and watch collections on the TST podcast) so he ignores the development cost part of the problem.
pleasedonotredeem@reddit
It's not hypocritical to be against the concept of extreme wealth disparity while also being friends with wealthy people you deem to be of good character.
hehechibby@reddit
not sure about the others but at the least Toyota is somewhat glancing the everyday enthusiast's way with the upcoming GR86, Celica, and MR2
packle-kackle@reddit
That part about the Century is a blatant lie? Toyota has been offering that car for decades with very few revisions at that. Not to mention the latest model revision is like 5 years old at this point. And on top of that Toyota’s oldest car lineup is the Crown which until recently was also above Lexus (excluding the comfort model).
90Carat@reddit
Farah discovers the "K" shaped economy.
neueziel1@reddit
Everyday performance cars starting at 49,999
BananaPalmer@reddit
The 86 starts at 30k
invol713@reddit
For now.
Medical-Gate-9978@reddit
So get one while you can
IguassuIronman@reddit
If only I could. But not only do you need to be able to buy the car but you also need to have somewhere to put it...
Medical-Gate-9978@reddit
My comment wasn’t for you
IguassuIronman@reddit
That's not how discussion boards work
Medical-Gate-9978@reddit
If you don’t have space then my comment wasn’t for you. Please move on.
IguassuIronman@reddit
Last I checked comments on public discussion boards are free to be responded to
Medical-Gate-9978@reddit
Ok.
SmokyTyrz@reddit
If only the Miata had a decent OEM clutch it would be a great car. As is, you can barely feel there is a pedal moving under your foot, like it's disconnected.
Gizmo45@reddit
Dunno why you got down voted. I love my ND2 but it could have a better feeling clutch. I think it's a result of the dual-mass flywheel.
T-Baaller@reddit
The ND miata is already great, just because there is some room for improvement doesn't change that. I think downvotes come from the comment is implying it's not a fantastic performance car as though a sub-optimal clutch is a dealbreaker.
It's affordable, it's fun. Letting a chase of perceived perfection sour you on the great is a recipe for a disappointing life.
Like my car loses oil pressure in sustained high RPM right turns, but even legends like the E30 M3 have that kind of issue. And it can be treated with the upgrades you'd want anyway if you're seriously tracking.
SmokyTyrz@reddit
I was so excited so finally test a drive Miata, especially now that they offer a hard top these days. Beautiful car. I was so sad about the clutch. It literally felt like nothing. I knew if I got it I'd have to drop coin on a custom clutch right off the bat which seemed odd given the car's reputation. Maybe the one I drove (0 mile car) was an exception somehow, but ya... I've been driving manuals my whole life on road and track, and couldn't find the engagement point by feel, and the entire length of travel felt like...nothing. At all. It was bizarre. Handled and felt great otherwise but it was a real deal breaker given the car's rep after all these years. Was it always like this or just newer cars?
Gizmo45@reddit
I drove a friend's NA and it was a night and day difference. So much more pedal feel than my car, so no, it hasn't always been like this.
jondes99@reddit
And I can confirm my NB and NC were essentially perfect clutches (and shifters).
lowstrife@reddit
Its an explicit tuning end engineering decision made by the OEM's. Cars are a massive set of tradeoffs, sacrificing one thing for another. And as sad as it is, many of these things are reduced and eliminated over time because focus groups whittle away at them to make it more appealing to said focus group.
/u/SmokyTyrz I am also someone who drives a car by feel, from the feedback given from the inputs. I find modern cars very challenging to drive as well, the isolation has been pushed to such an extreme. I can heel toe threshold brake with the best of them and smoothly shift a car to where someone can take a sip of a drink mid shift... but I could not drive a new BMW M4 smoothly because I had no idea what the fuck any aspect of the car was doing. It felt like I was learning to drive manual again because all of the feedback I (we) rely on was absent. You just had to guess and pull the clutch and pray you were right. Hence the electronic rev matching. I had to turn it on to be able to drive the car smoothly.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
I think you’re right, my 2017 Miata had a more communicative clutch pedal than the 2025 with dual mass flywheel
gimpwiz@reddit
Our ND1 has a perfectly adequate clutch IMO. Distinct bite point, good feel during different amounts of slip. No real complaints about the feedback.
He_Who_Busts@reddit
Try actually finding a GR86 for that though.
Snow_source@reddit
Brother, I bought my Supra at MSRP and my Gen 1 86 at MSRP.
It requires a little leg work, but it's a whole lot easier if you're willing to drive an hour or two. There are volume dealerships in most regions of the US and they just want to move cars.
RoyShavRick@reddit
You could find a BRZ with discounts for the same money and it's literally the same experience aside from tuning.
Lord_Vas@reddit
Many including me would rather go for the 86. Personally the 86 looks a bit better than the BRZ.
RoyShavRick@reddit
The cars are literally the same. The fronts aren't that different irl. And I prefer the Subaru's front.
And like, you can swap bumpers. Seriously I don't get this comment. It's pretty pedantic.
Fozzymandius@reddit
That’s a pretty pedantic take
Ommerino@reddit
I found my Premium for 32k. They are absolutely out there. Even the GR Corolla is going for MSRP (and even below MSRP) nowadays.
Recoil42@reddit
Sure, done. $31,779. That's $\~400 above base MSRP with the $300 mat package.
That took me like 30s, brother.
BananaPalmer@reddit
Toyota dealer up the street has two at 35k
It's gonna be tough to find any car from any brand at any dealer in poverty spec, not sure what your point is
fcwolfey@reddit
Their sports car is almost their cheapest model on sale in the US. And car prices have stayed pretty in line with inflation. It’s everything else(college, childcare, groceries, healthcare etc) costing way more than inflation thats making it feel like cars are expensive.
bigev007@reddit
Until 2020, cars were tracking way under inflation. They caught up in a hurry. But it's really stagnant wages that are making cars unaffordable
AtomWorker@reddit
Farah trots the 1995 Mustang GT as an example but neglects to point out that it "only" had 215hp and hit 60 in roughly 6.5 seconds. Imagine Ford selling that car in 2026 for an inflation adjusted $41k. And that's on top of all the other shortcomings that car had versus even the cheapest modern economy car.
Almost every other old "affordable" sports car he rattles off was expensive in their day. People forget that the Mustang was a comparative bargain. More importantly, If those cars were the hits Farah suggests more of them would still be around today and automakers like Nissan and Mitsubishi wouldn't be struggling.
Sports cars have always been expensive and pandering to enthusiasts is not a viable strategy for most car companies. They're a bonus for those who've already got the bread and butter sorted out.
jondes99@reddit
That’s kind of a straw man. 215 horsepower was a lot in 1995. The 2026 version has more than any 1995 Ferrari except an F50.
neueziel1@reddit
I remember a $30k coyote mustang a long time ago 😢
TurboFucked@reddit
I paid 27k for one in 2014. It was a premium too.
Scurro@reddit
I had gotten one with the performance package for $32k (before taxes) in 2015 with 0% apr 5 years.
hellooverlasting@reddit
Nothing will ever please people like you
Dr__Nick@reddit
That's $35,000 in 2010 bucks.
Searin@reddit
Considering the rough average price a regular new car purchased is 50k that's actually pretty good. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a69047202/average-new-car-price-rises-above-50000/
I'd assume a performance car would warrant a price bump over standard vehicles
neueziel1@reddit
Yeah I’m feeling old now lol
Searin@reddit
Same
spike021@reddit
none of them do except at the increasingly rare dealers still charging markups.
i bought my GRC for below that and so did most of my friends.
BrunoEye@reddit
A new MR2 sounds like a pretty much perfect product for me. I just hope it'll look better than the new Supra.
I hope they continue with the GT86 approach of narrow tires with some actual sidewall so that you can play about with the traction and go over bumps. I love how my MR2 can handle even the most derelict of roads with ease.
Users5252@reddit
I had my hopes up with their previous 2 MR2 successor concepts, and they all went down the drain when they revealed their Corolla concept last year.
aprtur@reddit
The Century comment to me is odd because it's a new brand but using existing vehicles, the only exception of which is the forthcoming GT/coupé. That branding never had anything to do with enthusiasts or affordability, and was always a display of the pinnacle of what Toyota could accomplish. The mainline Toyota brand has been their home for more affordable and sporty cars, and they're specifically growing GR as a brand to accommodate that.
xlb250@reddit
I guess I’m one of the lost enthusiasts?
Have always owned “enthusiast” cars: BRZ, Camaro, Mini Cooper, and Mustang. Did “enthusiast” things like track days.
Now I have no interest. With my salary stagnating and the non ideal job market, the math is not mathing as well as it used to.
Also, I feel that modern enthusiast cars keep getting more underwhelming. They are designed more like “GT cars” than the raw kind of experience I want.
But if I was old and rich, then I wouldn’t be as picky. It really comes down to a money issue I feel.
TurboFucked@reddit
I think you hit the nail on the head. And the flip side is that normal, everyday cars are basically just as fun.
You can't buy something like an Evo anymore. But you can buy an M340i, which would crush an Evo in pretty much every performance metric while being a quiet, comfortable place to pass the time while sitting in traffic. Unfortunately, it's also completely devoid of any sort of driving feel or character.
And we've already taken this to it's logical conclusion: the track-capable SUV. There's no shortage of SUV models that have absolutely astonishing track performance. It's the ultimate do everything family "fun" car. But we just decided that "fun = good track times".
YeonneGreene@reddit
I quite like the GT nature of my M240i but, if I wanted to spicy it up into an event, I can absolutely do so by adding an S3 Evo suspension, stiffer engine mounts, louder exhaust, and a tune on both the engine and transmission...all the kinds of warranty-voiding stuff enthusiasts were also doing to older cars when new.
So I don't really know what I'm missing? I don't really lament that newer cars are better appliances than their predecessors when the option to make them something more is right there, same as it ever was. I'll get upset when they actually get around to outlawing engine tunes.
Home-Star-Walker@reddit
The issue is cost.
Who can afford to buy an impractical car? Most people are on the edge buying a practical one much less one which serves a very narrow band utility-wise.
must_be_the_mangoes@reddit
Serious question: do enthusiasts buy new cars at the same rate as non-enthusiasts?
Excluding the ultra-wealthy, money no object people, would an enthusiast pay full sticker for an enthusiast car that depreciates significantly the minute it is driven off the lot? Or would they wait to get a deal on a used enthusiast car?
If an enthusiast has $40k to spend on an enthusiast sports car, would they get a new Miata/GR86/BRZ or would they get a used M2 or M4 or Boxter S?
If an enthusiast had $130k to spend on an enthusiast sports car, would they get a new, base-spec 911 or get a used GT4?
Would an enthusiast pay $50k for a new, base, no-options Mustang GT or a slightly used GT350?
Idk if I’m in the minority but I’m in the “used” camp 100% of the time. (See my flair). And if the majority of “enthusiasts” are in the same boat as me, then it kind of makes sense why there’s not a ton of demand for affordable enthusiast cars. Plus the growth of online auction sites like BaT and C&B have made it easier than ever for enthusiasts to wait out and find their dream used car instead of splurging on a new one in order to get the features/specs you want.
I could be way off here (which I’ll gladly admit) but this was just my initial reaction.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
The answer to that is emphatically, no. I personally have bought two new ('14 Focus ST, '25 WRX) and two used ('11 WRX, '19 GTI) and even that I feel is above-average for an enthusiast to be batting .500. Most people would rather buy gently used and use the extra money for mods or future repairs.
I bought my WRX new because these cars have an earned reputation and I plan on owning it for a while and wanted to start with a fresh platform. I know exactly what has been done to it and how it has been treated.
walnut100@reddit
No, enthusiasts aren't repeat customers leasing cars every 2-3 years or people going in over their head on 7 year car notes with negative equity on their trades.
They're buying depreciated low volume models and taking them to indy's or working on the cars themselves.
There's no world where enthusiasts are a target demographic.
primetimecsu@reddit
If I had to guess, I'd say no, they dont.
myself, i tend to buy my every day cars new. But any fun car im buying, im most likely buying used. probably low miles, good condition used, but still used.
Ok_Combination_4482@reddit
Nobody wants to nake manuels only for people to say ill buy 5 years later used.
nefrina@reddit
inevitable when the product you're selling instantly depreciates by 20% the moment it's purchased and continues to lose half of its value by year 5--coupled with this awful job market, flat wages & CoL crisis.
Ok_Combination_4482@reddit
Thats not really the companies problem. Its a buyers problem. The car depreciates cuz theres not enough people that want em.
newcarguy2019@reddit
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. A lot of those 90's cars just sucked and people would laugh at them.
NoctD@reddit
Having lived and driven in the 90s and 00s - I'd say that period is about the automotive peak for the ICE car. I could see the decline starting in the later 2000 years even before 2010.
Emissions, CAFE and safety regulations all put a strangle on enthusiast cars, unfortunately we didn't have a different standard for enthusiast cars like the US had for pickup trucks. All those regulations meant enthusiast cars got more expensive to make, fuel efficiency and clean emissions triumphed gave us numb electronic power steering, auto-start-stop systems, CVTs and autos over manuals, added safety meant cars got heavier over time, etc. The end was inevitable even back then.
As much as there might be some remaining enthusiast cars today that outperform their 90-00s counterparts, even these are often less exciting, compare the portly Civic Type-R of today to the S2000, these cars drive nothing like each other.
Regulations have killed the enthusiast cars - there's no new cars in 2026 that excite me and I find my interest in cars almost gone. Just gonna keep my Cayman till I'm 6ft under and drive the wheels off while I'm able to, and have a 2nd appliance otherwise that gets me from point A to B when I'm not in the mood for a fun drive.
HoldingForGenova@reddit
This statement is genuinely insane - we're literally in the greatest era of cheap horsepower and insane capability of the entire history of the automobile.
TurboFucked@reddit
No they didn't. This is just an excuse we tell each other because the truth it hard to hear.
Mainstream buyers don't want enthusiast cars. They don't want light cars. They don't want tossable cars. They don't want small cars. They definitely don't want manual transmissions. They don't care about limited slip differentials.
Mainstream car buyers want: big, lifted pickup trucks, and three row SUVs. With a smattering of those who will settle for medium-sized SUVs.
Just look at a chart of the best selling vehicles in the USA; I dare you. And it's not just an American thing - if you look at the fastest growing vehicle segments in the rest of the world, it's the crossover and SUV. World wide, everyone wants larger vehicles, it's really just taxes keeping cars small in certain areas.
The proof regulations didn't kill the enthusiast car: the Miata. It's 2300lbs, has a 90" wheelbase, a manual transmission, and it's still cheap. If a tiny manufacture like Mazda can make the Miata, everyone else can as well. They just choose not to. On the other side, there are plenty of 700-1000+hp boosted V8s for sale right now. The Escalade-V has nearly 700hp and is rated for 11MPG city.
There are plenty of possible enthusiasts cars that sit between a Miata and an Escalade-V.
HoldingForGenova@reddit
What he's describing is what the watch industry figured out after failing to meet the quartz crisis, and then being put on edge because of smartwatches. And it'll follow a similar trajectory: mechanical watches are ICE cars. Smartwatches are EVs. ICE will be seen as a status symbol because they're inherently more complicated to own and maintain. EVs will be almost disposable, and "good enough" for 95% of the population (or more.)
But those EVs will also serve the purpose needed in a satisfactory manner for most folks, who don't care beyond making sure it covers their needs, because they aren't enthusiasts and never will be.
mustangfan12@reddit
The base model Mustang is still affordable but sadly its pretty stripped down unless you get the Ecoboost premium
T-Baaller@reddit
Too bad they made it auto only. Eliminated itself as a choice when I was shopping in 2024.
FckDammit@reddit
But then you’d be driving an ecoboost Mustang.
mustangfan12@reddit
True but performance wise its a bargain it can go from 0-60 in under 5 seconds and handles great.
The main thing the ecoboost has always had problems with is brand perception
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
Not everyone cares about power. We aren’t all stoplight racing in Bakersfield or roll racing in Florida. It could 0-60 in 3 seconds and it is still a Mustang with a four popper, and I say this as a diehard Honda fan. You bought a Mustang for the V8 or coped with the former V6 and now the i4.
79QUATTRO@reddit
this comment is nuts. if that mustang horse badge was a toyota or honda badge it would easily be considered the best JDM car of the modern era. and i say this as a former 5.0 owner
TurboFucked@reddit
Not exactly JDM, but there was a time when Hyundai built exactly a Mustang: same size, same wheel base, same weight, power options. To the point where I think the board literally asked for them to create "The Korean Mustang" and engineers copied the spec sheet verbatim. It was marketed it as a tuner drift car. And it flopped.
My friend had a Genesis Coupe R-spec that I vehicle sat for while he was on deployment and it was a brilliant car. Granted, it wasn't stock, but it wasn't crazy modified either.
Mustangs are like Wranglers. Any company can copy the formula, but it's rare to successfully compete with them. They are much more about marketing and image than they are about the actual product.
primetimecsu@reddit
the manual ecoboost mustang is basically what all these "enthusiasts" want, but with the wrong badge
4 cyl turbo, good manual transmission, rwd, lots of aftermarket support. Just a tad heavy
420bIaze@reddit
Back when the 370z was being made, it had more power and less weight than the ecoboost mustang - it was widely derided for it's excessive weight.
If a Japanese company produced a car like the ecoboost Mustang, it would be widely derided for it's excessive weight and size.
withsexyresults@reddit
the latest nissan Z base with 6speed, 400hp, rwd, 2 more cylinders, similar weight to an ecoboost barely sells as well. haha nissan is that company that makes a better ecoboost and still struggles
penguinseed@reddit
They need to detach it from the Nissan brand. The Altima and the predatory lending of their finance arm tainted the brand.
Clip_Clippington@reddit
FWIW, it's also a bit too big for my tastes.
Otherwise, it wasn't that bad, and I was a bit more impulsive, I would have bought a Ecoboost Performance Package.
Dull-Tea8669@reddit
The biggest con of that car is the end of your sentence like it doesn't matter at all. Yes, the car weighting so much almost takes out all the positives
primetimecsu@reddit
its 3500 ish lbs. a few hundred more than a civic type r, gr corolla, supra...
not like its one of the german coupes that weigh a boat load.
withsexyresults@reddit
Nah way too heavy and soft. It’s like the 4pot Supra, no one cares about that one either
randeus@reddit
The latter can literally be solved with less TJ an $2k in suspension mods.
withsexyresults@reddit
but not everyone wants to do suspension work on a new car
that ecoboost hpp was also 42k in 2020, equivalent to 53k in today's money, almost 20k more than an elantra. also was wearing 100TW pzero corsas vs 300TW ps4s on the elantra. an aggressive low TW tire was probably the most important part of the time difference
FckDammit@reddit
You’re also dealing with FoMoCo build quality and reliability, on top of the car being kinda porky although all cars are nowadays. And its automatic only.
arcticrobot@reddit
On one of my business trips I rented this Ecoboost mustang with 300hp and 10-speed manual.
Couldn't wait to get back home to my 205 hp Civic Si with LSD and manual. Less power, more doors, FWD, but feels so much more engaging to drive and enthusiasty.
randeus@reddit
10 speed manual? No wonder you hated it.
R_V_Z@reddit
People wanted the Fast and the Furious experience so Ford is trying to fit an 18-wheeler transmission into the car.
arcticrobot@reddit
crap, that was 10-speed auto, I was just thinking about manual Civic)
RunninOnMT@reddit
It’s also kinda huge and auto only.
Quickness matters though, don’t want to pretend it doesn’t.
lasvacasvuelan@reddit
Reddit: we need affordable sports cars
Brand: ok here you go
Reddit: no, not like that!
randeus@reddit
I hate to admit it, but the v8 wouldn’t even exist without ecoboost either.
r_golan_trevize@reddit
That’s the whole pony car proposition - the performance trim is subsidized by the base model volume and the base model trades on the cachet of the performance trim.
lasvacasvuelan@reddit
There’s nothing to hate. Porsche as a company probably wouldn’t exist without the cayenne. We can’t expect companies to only cater to enthusiasts. That’s a very small market.
rockinadios@reddit
Seriously. If Toyota made a coupe with a 300hp turbo 4, rear wheel drive, and a manual, people would lose their shit.
mustangfan12@reddit
One of the Mustangs biggest problems is options dramatically raises the price, a GT Premium coupe can easily get up to $70k with lots of options
Dp04@reddit
Why is that a problem? They are options… you don’t have to get them.
Why are people surprised that getting extra stuff costs more.
crunchynibbas@reddit
Christ. If that's your response, then enthusiasts don't deserve fun cars then.
jrileyy229@reddit
It's an insane value at 33k....in a world where a stripped out civic costs 27k
amino_asshat@reddit
I just bought a fully loaded civic for $33k and love itit!
Skensis@reddit
Eh, I'm a car enthusiast and if anything it's still really nice down at the lower end of the price range.
Plenty of fun cars from around 30k and up.
BillyJohnsFinds@reddit
What are you talking about? Number of fun stick shift cars between 30-60k is so tiny.
withsexyresults@reddit
Miata, brz, wrx, ctr, elantra n, GRC, mustang gt maybe I’m forgetting others but atleast 7 is a decent amount
BillyJohnsFinds@reddit
That’s an absolutely tiny amount.
withsexyresults@reddit
How many more do you want? The market is already tiny
AKADriver@reddit
That's still quite a bit of money. I know how inflation works, but still. What you're saying is that you can still get something like an MX-5 or a GR86 or an Elantra N etc. and that's true. If you consider that the entry point for an enthusiast car, you can still get that.
When my car was new it was one of the cheapest cars you could buy and in my opinion it was an excellent choice for a new young enthusiast. Coming up in the '90s and 2000s if you were young and into cars you could get something really cheap that could still serve as an entry point to having fun with cars because of how simple and light it was.
My problem is now I'm old and can afford nice things but I still just kinda like cars like this and I'm stuck.
bullet50000@reddit
That's just what a new car costs now though. A Base spec Accord is $28,500, and a CR-V is $31k. The fact a Miata is still price competitive with that is still proportionally correct.
ritz_are_the_shitz@reddit
this gets at the real problem that matt only barely touched on in the article. he says, let's hound companies for enthusiast options - with what money? average people have less and less income to spend on hobbies because even when you factor in inflation, housing costs have skyrocketed vs wages. that leaves less for everything else. we need a massive correction to wages or a massive correction to housing prices. homeowners clutch their pearls at the idea they lose 10% of their value, but really it should be more like 50%
JillierHaroldLamaar@reddit
Even the "cheap" cars aren't cheap. I chose to buy a used ND2 Miata over a new one because after taxes, the used Grand Touring was $6,000 cheaper than a new Club. Yeah, Rah Rah! Save the manuals and the sports cars! But I was 28, $6000 is a lot of money just for an unfarted seat, and things are always going to get worse no matter what I do.
I even waited until the new Z was finally announced to buy my Miata because I thought I would cross shop them. We saw how that turned out, but at least Nissan is hurting from their stupid decision to go "up market" with a car still using the same interior door handles from twenty years ago.
AKADriver@reddit
I already said I know how inflation works. My Mazda2 was significantly cheaper than an MX-5 or Accord back in 2012. Probably more like $20k in today's money.
pridetwo@reddit
I mean, if a 100hp economy hatchback is what you're pining for then get a Nissan versa, Mitsubishi mirage, or Kia soul. They're all right around $20k
AKADriver@reddit
Out of production, out of production, and a much larger heavier softer taller vehicle.
pridetwo@reddit
Buy them used then, youre still happy with your 14 year old 100hp economy car so I doubt you would though
AKADriver@reddit
Yes exactly. They don't do anything better than my car, they have worse suspensions and steering and all but the Mirage weigh more.
pridetwo@reddit
OK, I'm sorry carmaker dont sell go karts for the 5 people pining for a mazda2 successor.
kon---@reddit
Keywords...and up.
And by plenty you're talking about a handful of cars.
And while fun, it's nuts that the G87's base is a tick under $69K. Super hard to justify that for a 2 series.
koolkarim94@reddit
Frankly I think it’s SUVs that are destroying enthusiast cars
JIMatRK@reddit
Big picture I agree with Matt, but I think we have to acknowledge that the used enthusiast market is better than it ever has been. We've got literally decades of post-malaise cars at this point, and the internet has made it a lot easier to find parts and know how to keep whatever you're driving on the road.
The "middle class" enthusiast car is dying because for the first time basically ever the middle class can justify keeping a twenty, thirty year old enthusiast car. In the past it was either prohibitively expensive to maintain, and/or the available options weren't worth the effort. This will have driven a lot of middle class enthusiast buyers to buy new, buoying the segment.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit
The options are good I agree. But damn if the prices aren’t brutal. It’s a real downside for a lot of people when the fun enthusiast cars stop depreciating or even begin doing the opposite.
Shit your 4Runner is probably worth EXACTLY what you bought it for
willyolio@reddit
I would say cheap enthusiasts abandoned car companies first.
This isn't some ideological thing. People stopped buying sports cars, companies stop making sports cars.
And when a company DOES try, "enthusiasts" will find any reason to not buy it. The classic manual diesel brown wagon used from the factory.
TurboFucked@reddit
Yep, it's sad because Hyundai makes some of the best enthusiast cars out there. Hyundai is the company enthusiasts pretend Mazda to be.
Every N car is a hoot. Even their non-N smaller cars are pretty fun to drive. The Stinger (KIA, but still) was a super nice wagon-missile thing. But enthusiasts don't give them their due, despite teh cars being widely praised in car reviews by well-respected journalists.
However, Hyundai/KIA are killing it with the regular crowd. The Palisade/Telluride are hot as hell and the K5 is a strange breakout hit amongst non-car people.
bippos@reddit
“Fun” cars probably won’t disappear but combustion engine cars will
popsicle_of_meat@reddit
I've only driven a couple of electrics, but I hope they find a way to get the same kind of engaging feelin an electric that you can get in a smaller toss-able manual car. My Legacy GT spec.B, while not "small" is lighter than most electrics and has a manual 6-speed. I've had manuals for a while, and I consider that to be a core function of driving fun and engagement. There's just so much less to do in an electric. It doesn't seem the same.
Sure there are some electrics that have special traction modes, drifting assist or launch control. But with a manual I can get a LOT of engagement on driving regular roads at regular speeds. Even just a steady straight line pull at moderate acceleration when you just nail the shift timing and it's as smooth as butter just feels so damn good. I'm going to miss that.
TurboFucked@reddit
The IONIQ5 N has fake shifting. It's pretty fun, as it even simulates the powerband of an ICE.
Even though it makes the car way slower, it does make it far more engaging to drive.
avoidhugeships@reddit
That's the same thing.
Gyat_Rizzler69@reddit
The everyday "enthusiast" is insufferable and broke.
c0rbin9@reddit
These cars have been legislated out of existence.
AllGravyNoBiscuits@reddit
yep
hellooverlasting@reddit
Writer is cooking, just wait till the tech bros find out about this thread and start whining why we can’t get in with the times
Noisyrussinators@reddit
Douchebag. Next.
GoldenState15@reddit
Riveting commentary
PurchaseVisible3426@reddit
Yeah nobody got money
tetea_t@reddit
I genuinely believe that the only way to reverse this trend is if the media (traditional and influencers) as well as the general public (via social media) no longer fall over their heels on these ultra-costly machines. I mean we completely ignore these ‘unattainable’ cars. That’s like not talking about them for us regular folks, and saying no to the car companies for influencers (even if they offered to pay you an arm and a leg for doing a highly scripted infomercial).
As for me, I want to see more cars like the Miata. I want influencers to demand more affordable grand tourers for the masses. And I also hate glossy/piano black plastic.
ArcticBP@reddit
In a post almost entirely about the ultra-rich, touching on inflation and affordability and never once mentioning an EV or even electrification, OPs only noted takeaway is EVs are killing enthusiast cars?
Organic-End-9767@reddit
Its crazy how people are so hyper focused on EVs. EVs have their place. I wish people would stop acting like ICE will go away. It will always exist even if it becomes niche in 50 years just like rotaries and carburetors, and there are way more engines than those two things.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
I'd go the other way in that I think income inequality and the stalling of homeownership rates in the US because of stupidly-rising real estate speculation, is one of the drivers why EVs aren't doing as well as they otherwise could be.
I think a lot more people would take the plunge on an EV if they could home charge at the current state of public charging infrastructure.
AKADriver@reddit
There's also just lack of political will (or, really, political will against electrification). It would cost relatively little in the grand scheme of things to run a few wires into the parking spaces of apartments for charging, but the real estate investors jacking up those prices aren't going to pay a red cent more to install an amenity that isn't a legal requirement.
SecretApe@reddit
There are becoming options that are fun and I’d make the jump, but I have no where to charge it. I’m not going to gamble it by hoping that there is a free charger off the 2 available at my local Lidl during my Saturday grocery trip.
Twombls@reddit
Dude its reddit. No one reads the article
JillierHaroldLamaar@reddit
I'm curious about what happens in 30 years when Gen X starts dying off, Millennials and Gen Z still have no purchasing power, the top 10 percent can't keep the whole industry running anymore.
ballmode@reddit
I find him harder to take seriously as he increases his access to new high end cars.
If he never branched away from the One Take style format videos as his main "reviewing", then sure I'd feel like he was speaking for the "everyday enthusiast". However, as he touts watches based off his so "special" Porsche car color.... or using his platforms to essentially promote his personal collection of vehicles and use his friend network to get top views and bidding on his cars so he can profit and move onto to the next subtle future advertisement so be it. I see through it, I just really only follow the regular car show podcasts from him and Zach and WILL not pay for early access and/or become a patron.
Speaking of Zach, I know he doesn't come from as affluent background, and I'm pretty sure the revenue generated from The Smoking Tire is not an 50/50 split between the two or he would be doing better off by now, if I'm Zach and I'm constantly working for a guy who is constantly promoting, living, and trying to keep up within the car opinion culture of the latest greatest, I would always feel 2nd tier because its a very have and have not culture they have established.
noSSD4me@reddit
To me the biggest part of the problem is plain old corporate greed. And I can't understand who is the target demographic for most of the fun cars made today. Car enthusiasts? Well enthusiasts cars are somewhat affordable (note I didn't say cheap, because there is a difference), but with a price of over $40k for a new fun manual car it's impossible to call it "affordable." Middle class people? Well the interest rates and auto loan fiasco we have been going through since like 2022, many fun cars are simply priced out for a lot of people, and with addition of stupid markups (I really want to see dealerships suffer great losses because of these despicable practices, they deserve it) it puts many cars at like $50-60k+, which comes out to something like $900-1000/month for a conventional 60-month loan even if you put something down, and that is ridiculous. Rich people? Any "rich" (however one defines this term) person who has say $60-80k of free money to dump on a car is not looking for a manual, FWD (or RWD in case of GR86/BRX), 4-cylinder boy toy when you can be rolling in a say CLA45 AMG, or add a bit of money and get yourself a RWD manual (a rarity these days) CT4-V Blackwing. The pricing has been completely blown out of proportion. Now I don't expect to be paying a $20k for a fun manual car, but the prices we've been seeing lately do nothing but destroy demand, hence why automakers go "oh, nobody is buying out fun cars, well it's time to kill it"😑
Innocent-Bystander94@reddit
To play devils advocate, the everyday enthusiast is a small niche that hates spending money. They’re always looking for a deal, always shopping used, and always complaining. SUVs are easier to sell and have higher profit margins.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
This was always the case, but that didn’t stop OEMs from putting more effort into the segment
aprtur@reddit
Depends on your lifestyle and priorities, I guess. I know plenty of enthusiasts that I don't consider ultra wealthy, but because they're single, that affords them both time and money to buy new sports cars. I think the financial pinch of the economy nowadays has made it so that you have to choose the "white picket fence" or being able to enjoy your hobbies, which didn't have to be separate in the past. Throw in our current environmental regulations oddly carving things out to make those SUVs much easier to engineer to those targets, as well as the higher profit margins, and it becomes even harder to justify passion projects. That being said, it makes me respect Toyota, Mazda, and Honda for throwing money at some of these things in the last 10 years. They don't have to spend money on fun projects, but in bits and pieces, they do still do that.
GoredonTheDestroyer@reddit
Because whenever a car company, in the present day, makes an affordable enthusiast's car, people shit on it endlessly for not being good enough, refuse to buy it because it doesn't tick every single box (Or, if it does, it doesn't do the job good enough), and then it magically becomes the greatest thing since Betty White, a true hidden gem, once it gets discontinued. If Mazda started selling the MX-5 in 2015, it would have been discontinued by now.
Head_Crash@reddit
Car makers are abandoning cars.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
I’m pretty sure they’re not. They’re abandoning a lower socioeconomic market.
Fafoah@reddit
Also financing basically killed the market for cheap cars. The typical person shopping for a new car will likely just pick a higher trim and finance than go for something cheaper. On top of that, the “financially responsible“ consumer likely is shopping for used rather than new now
Clapbakatyerblakcat@reddit
People with $20-$30k don’t cross shop new vs new cars. They cross shop $30k new vs $30k CPO, and CPO wins every time.
MPK49@reddit
People are also not interested in buying cheap cars. The kind of car you would need to make to make it truly cheap would have a bunch of tech missing that people consider as standard now. Cars are also mandated now to have a decent amount of tech that costs alot to make.
beermaker@reddit
The hobby went from badass hot-rodders to whiny, self-indulgent, intentionally ignorant pissants in two generations, by and large. Thanks F&F.
clingbat@reddit
I mean the Golf R is getting pricey, but even still, it's a lot of performance for the $ and has a better interior and daily driving behavior than most of its direct competition.
izwald88@reddit
I think the real problem is that every day enthusiasts don't buy enthusiast cars.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
Subaru dropping the price of the WRX is a nice change from this, I guess.
ZannX@reddit
Businesses don't cater to non-customers. What's new?
NivTal@reddit
There's not a new car out there under 60k that I lust for. That i want.
Yummy_Castoreum@reddit
Fun affordable cars aren't dead. They're just electric.
Drive a Hyundai Ioniq5 AWD or Ioniq5N.
Drive a Ford Mustang Mach E or Mach E GT.
Drive a Kia EV6 AWD or EV6 GT.
Drive a Tesla Model 3 or Model 3 Performance.
If they're too pricey new, pick one up used for half price. Depreciation is your friend.
Hell, a Chevy Bolt is honestly pretty entertaining in the Fiesta ST mold, and you can pick up a used one for a four-figure price.
Electric torque is addictive, and smooth one-pedal driving requires similar skills to finessing a clutch. Learn to love the electron, and it opens up a whole new world for you.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Paywall ( I hate R&T doing that ) . Anyway, our economic system is losing control, serious wealth gap is changing our car markets.
Arnas_Z@reddit
Install bypass-paywalls-clean and off you go.
sid41299@reddit (OP)
I've never had paywalls on R&T. Could it be a region-based thing?
aprtur@reddit
Possibly, or based on how you set your browser up, you could be tricking the "number of free articles" thing. There are ways around this, of course.
hpshaft@reddit
K-shaped economy is a helluva thing.
RiftHunter4@reddit
Great article, but I don't really see it. It's not that companies can't make cheap enthusiast cars, it's that no one buys them. A Civic Si is $10k less than the price of the average new car. The new WRX is still under $40k easily. The GR Corolla can be found in the low $40s. And the used market is flush with options these days with stuff like the Nissan GT-R and Ferrari's regularly dipping below $100k.
Sure, cars are expensive, but like the article mentioned, it's an economic issue. The price of everything has gone up and people just don't have the money for regular cars anymore. At least not fun, unnecessary stuff. A fun car is now a luxury, even it's an older one. That's just how it is and there's nothing the industry alone can do about it.
lottadot@reddit
For most people I know, a new utilitarian car was a luxury. And families only had one. A few years in, a kid or two, and the second car was purchased. Wife got the new one & Dad got the now-beater to go to/from work.
None of 'em ever had fun (sports) vehicles. If they did, it was the guy when he was single before they were married. Or bought one after the kids were raised and out of the house on their own.
TripleShotPls@reddit
... he's not wrong.
gravis1982@reddit
what exactly is a car enthusiast? Someone who's hobby is driving ?
Makes no sense
EloeOmoe@reddit
AMG One getting some shade.
Uptons_BJs@reddit
I don’t think the fundamental premise is true. If you consider Wrangler, Bronco, Land Cruiser, G class, etc enthusiast cars, sales are great!
A decline in sports cars doesn’t mean car enthusiasm is dead. No more than a decline in disco means music enthusiasm is dead.
sid41299@reddit (OP)
That's a fair, if semantic, take, but it doesn't reflect reality, so I hope you're being sarcastic.
While it is true that cars like the Bronco and Land Cruiser are enthusiast vehicles, I don't believe they are bought by off-road enthusiasts any more than the Huracan or the 720/750S by the enthusiasts they are targeting. On the other hand, someone buying something like an 86 or even a Cayman GTS (for a more tier-matched comparison) is rarely buying it for anything other than being an "enthusiast" car.
Your logic would have held more truth if something like the Suzuki Jimny was flying off of shelves around the world, but it has pretty much died a slow death in almost all markets except Japan and some lower cost markets like Mexico and Africa. Even in India, sales of the Mahindra Thar (basically a Jeep CJ continuation but without much of the actual off-road chops) far outstrips the much cheaper, smaller, easier to maintain, and far more capable Jimny. The simple fact remains that no matter how much off-road goodness a manufacturer crams into their SUVs, the majority of SUV buyers will be flaunters.
Uptons_BJs@reddit
I used the disco analogy, because back when coupe sales were high, a lot of them were "bandwagoners" (for the lack of a better term) too. Ford sold 600 thousand mustangs one year, what percentage of them were true "muscle car enthusiasts"?
Stereotypically, there were a ton of old guys in Corvettes, or yuppies in M3s. You say only enthusiasts today buy 86s, but in the 90s, the Probe, the TT, and the Eclipse were all popular as a "trendy" option.
The bandwagon left and went into offroaders. Hence why sporty cars are dying. People who want a car because its cool would rather get a Wrangler than an M3.
bikedork5000@reddit
Those are cool and I'm glad they exist. But I want a modern version of a '11 S4 Avant. Not a Jeep or anything trying to be a Jeep.
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
That’s a big if and one I certainly disagree with. None of those are at all similar to the cars discussed in the article neither are they usually bought by car enthusiasts. Those are basically all suburban mom mobiles.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
The "offroading is not a motorsport" take will forever be weird to be.
Skensis@reddit
Likewise, a silly off roading truck that rarely sees the trail isn't any different than a silly high horsepower sports car that rarely sees the track.
We don't have to like the same exact silly things for us to still be car enthusiast.
RunninOnMT@reddit
I dunno, taking a sports car to 6/10ths on a back road would be the equivalent of like light off-roading for an offroad vehicle. A place where you can flex the suspension without actually being in any danger of getting stuck.
Which is to say I think we set the bar too high in general for people “using their vehicle how it was intended” because I bet both of the things I listed happen more often than maybe we assume when we see these vehicles out and about driving sedately on the street.
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
It’s not so much that as looking at who mostly buys those cars. Jeeps are fun as hell off road and I’ve had fun renting them several times. However they’re mostly mall crawlers and never see anything off road. They also suck as a daily but that’s another point.
Uptons_BJs@reddit
The hardcore market was always subsidized by the “nomies” hence the whole “old guy in a corvette” or “gay guy with a miata” stereotypes.
To return to the music analogy- my city has one discotheque left. As the mainstream audience moved on, there’s like a tiny number of hardcores keeping a niche product segment alive, but honestly that’s as good as you can really hope for.
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
Old guys can be car enthusiasts as can gay guys like me btw.
That’s not really the point though. Look at the cars Matt talked about. The normies are buying a civic sport not an si or type r. That doesn’t really hold true for jeeps and g wagons who are mostly driven by people who like the look for driving around town. The Miata is a really it’s own animal bc it’s an affordable and reliable convertible without a real performance trim.
PowerSpool@reddit
Its like car companies don't care about brand loyalty at all. I grew up seeing Evos, Eclipses and Galants thinking I would 100% stick with that brand for life as long as they kept making those cars. Obviously mitsubishi is a more extreme example but a regular car buyer will just jump at the first opportunity to abandon their most recent brand they purchased from.
Snazzy21@reddit
Consider your average vehicle from 1994 and the enthusiast traits:
Distraction free interior: Almost certainly (technology constraints)
Low weight: Probably (didn't need weight to meet customer/smog/safety expectations)
Driving aids: none to minimal (technology limitation)
Hydraulic steering: yes
Pure combustion engine: Yes (and the engine is likely larger too due to technology)
Manual transmission: probably offered (automatics had a lot of drawbacks back then)
Technology enabled normal people to diverge from what car enthusiasts want, and companies can't make their vehicles appeal to one with out directly alienating the other.
And mix in lower disposable income, a 50% drop over 40 years in number of people getting licenses at 16, and fewer young people overall. You're squeezing water from stone.
mycounterpointers@reddit
If enthusiasts would actually buy enthusiast cars we wouldn't have this problem. Meaning, go buy a Miata. The more Miatas are sold, the more incentive for mainstream car companies to buy enthusiast cars.
theanswar@reddit
"Nissan theoretically offers a Z, but I see three times as many Huracáns each week as I see those" - this. Wow, it rings true when he says it this way. I saw 2 Huracáns, a 675LT, a RR Wraith today... and no Z's.
absolute_echo@reddit
What do you guys think about the new six packhttps://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8bEQESt/
raginghavoc89@reddit
You can't even get 300 horsepower for less than 30 grand, average enthusiasts never stood a chance.
BAQ717@reddit
Great article. Matt is one of the best in the business.
lmao_what@reddit
It’s a good article, and this takes nothing away from it — but I remember the podcast where a patreon pointed this very point out, and he made a remark along the lines that it would be a great article for him to write. Good follow through
idkbruh653@reddit
Blame consumers. Most people sadly aren’t enthusiasts and just want basic transportation. That’s why the market is flooded with crossovers.
taylorstrat@reddit
Why not buy a youngtimer? I am driving a e24 635 csi. What a lovely thing and you get them in Europe for around EUR 20k.
brackfriday_bunduru@reddit
I love the part about bad press from making lemons.
Wealthy people just quietly wear it. Regular people cause a fuss
whosthatcarguy@reddit
Enthusiasts are uniquely placed to buy used cars more often than new anyways. We’re cross shopping cars from throughout history when looking for a fun toy.
As an OEM, you’re not just competing with other OEMs, you’re competing with history.
Why in the world would anyone buy a new M3, Civic Type R or Supra when you can get a great, older 911, Corvette Z06 or Audi R8 for the same money?
Shmokesshweed@reddit
He keeps pretending that he didn't grow up in a wealthy family and that his businesses make him a regular guy.
Couldn't be any further from the truth.
The3rdbaboon@reddit
Fucking nonsense. He could never afford a Pagani.
Being bitter towards people who are successful is a bad look.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Maybe not today. But if he gets an inheritance from his parents, he could easily afford one.
BasePCar@reddit
Please share where he’s pretending.. he’s been pretty open about his background as long as I’ve know him. If you mean “the rest of us” comment you’re taking the statement way too literally.
harrw626@reddit
Shades of MF ghost
pablxo@reddit
This is a super solid article.
Never been much of a R&T reader, but I enjoyed this one.
Doesn't say anything that hasn't been said before regarding wealth disparities and car enthusiasm, but it's a good article that puts most of the nuances and grievances in one easy to understand place.