Are "bean counters" actually ruining the car industry?
Posted by TennisWilling936@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 82 comments
Posted by TennisWilling936@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 82 comments
EVE_Burner_Account@reddit
Yes. Next question.
howrunowgoodnyou@reddit
No. Short term thinking executives who need endless exponential growth are
Emperor_of_All@reddit
This Accounting and Finance people do not "make" people do anything.
Management does. Want to blame anyone blame management!
howrunowgoodnyou@reddit
Wrong. Management takes major decisions on programs up the food chain. Managers just manage workers.
VegasBjorne1@reddit
Yes, but there’s the crux of the matter. When accountants replace “car guys” as automotive Presidents, then decisions are made accordingly.
howrunowgoodnyou@reddit
You mean marketing and business majors. Not accountants.
VegasBjorne1@reddit
I doubt marketing and management grads are making financial and engineering decisions at the CEO level in major auto manufacturing company.
howrunowgoodnyou@reddit
They are.
Shot-Swimming-9098@reddit
Cute how you think Accounting doesn't have executives.
Emperor_of_All@reddit
Executives are management, they are literally the highest level of management.
robert32940@reddit
Yep and PE, fuck PE.
Mr-Blackheart@reddit
My company, MASSIVE medical device manufacturer, went from heavy duty injected molded plastics to 3d printed plastics on units I install. Issue here is the power connection couplings of a hot swappable, 215lb pound printer assembly that gets swapped at 8 hour time intervals by the customer and my job is training them to do this.
Having such a massive issue with the weight behind this unit destroying the 3d printed plastics when closed, as this wasn’t engineered well nor tested before GA release that my manager is telling us in the field to “skip” the swap teaching as it’s breaking the connectors when doing this (I’ve snapped 2 of 3 installed) and customers are refusing to sign off on the install contracts and rightfully so.
It’s not just the auto industry. All industries try to save as much $$$ as possible.
FettesBrot@reddit
Simple answer, yes.
ABobby077@reddit
Maybe, but any car or vehicle manufacturer will not be in business long if they aren't making a profit on what they make and sell.
giveusbackbremer@reddit
Bean counters aren’t required to make a profit. They maximize short term profit.
Companies who put an emphasis on a good experience, and/or a quality/robust product have always, and will continue to succeed
Graxtz_Kreinst@reddit
I see how Jaguar, Ferrari (bought by Fiat back in the days), Porsche (bought by Volkswagen back in the days) succeed with their high quality and robust products.
Nice dreams but the fact is that automotive needs numbers and a very accurate knowledge of how much you spend.
GearBox5@reddit
Define what you mean by “beancounters”? People who are using data to make company be efficient? From that point of view Toyota is an epitome of beancounting culture. Don’t see it falling though. Opposing to companies ruined by management making voluntaristic decisions not grounded in data or driving by politics. This whole thread is braindead.
giveusbackbremer@reddit
I can’t give you an example of this from my industry without doxing myself so you’ll have to live with “my definition” and an example.
Also I’d argue Toyota doesn’t have a been counting culture. They do have an efficiency minded culture, but that’s not the same thing, and as you build your company you should hire efficiency minded people and encourage feedback from them to improve products and production.
Bean counters spend a nickel to save a dime. Doesn’t matter what the butterfly effect is.
For an example, I’ll stay in the car industry because that’s the thread we’re in. A company with a bean counting team will spend $500,000 on salary for them. They’ll spend $200,000 on raw material to make prototypes of an updated oil pan that saves the company $2.00 a unit because of reduced raw material. Then the company will spend $500,000 on new molds and dies. They’ll spend another $250,000 on training floor managers and workers on the new design and how it requires a slightly different build process. When all is said and done they spent nearly $1.5 million to save $2.00 a unit but they’ll ship 2 million units, so they saved $2.5 million dollars. Yay.
Except now their whole dealership network have to spend an extra 25 minutes for every oil change they do. That’s $2 less per car, but for an average “new car lifespan” being 4 years, with 9-10 oil changes that’s an extra 4 hours of labor on average that the customer has to pay for. Let’s use jiffy lube wages and assume $16 an hour for labor. Now the customer has to pay an extra $64 so the company could save $2.
Oh and 1% of their customers buy a different car because they do all their maintenance themselves.
No_Win7658@reddit
Thry cause shortsightedness and only care about “operational excellence” of that - because even that contradicts the quarterly thinking. So hell no, this is the wrong Logic
Aware-Lingonberry602@reddit
The term "bean counters" is a term used by people who know nothing about manufacturing, and can't wrap their small brain around the idea that design, engineering, finance, among others, need to compromise to produce a vehicle that meets the necessary parameters.
lumpialarry@reddit
People in this thread saying things like “they only care about the next quarter!” Do you think the GM Ultium cars were all designed and built in 90 days?
maybach320@reddit
They are ruining every industry with the assistance of MBAs.
Philodendron69@reddit
Bean counters aka the people who help shareholders extract wealth are ruining every industry
UnleadedLava@reddit
Bean counting management is the worst.
Outlaw25@reddit
As someone who works for a supplier and interacts with OEM design teams every day, I'd say that if you've ever seen something cheap or obviously poorly designed there's a decent chance that the bean counters had a big hand in why it is like that.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes the designers come up with stupid ideas on their own, and us suppliers often have our own issues actually executing on whatever it is that the OEM tried to design (again, either due to bean countery or sometimes plain incompetence). However, generally speaking, every engineer I've met so far was purely interested in making the highest quality product they can for their given project on the car. They're often painfully aware of every flaw that people point out (and usually a very large list of known issues that people don't even notice), and would fix all of them in a snap if they had unlimited time and money to work with.
There absolutely are cases where bean counters say "come up with every way you can to reduce the cost of this," and then we all end up having to brainstorm ways to shave fat off our babies without breaking its bones. Usually we try to keep the general user experience the same through that process, but innevitably there end up being changes that are more noticeable than not.
MacMcMufflin@reddit
Now? "AI" is genericizing everything.
mjl777@reddit
Yes, its always been this way, and it will always be this way. Every manufacturer has to chart a balance between the cost of manufacture and the price of the thing they are selling. Both of those are financial decisions hence they are assumed to be the "bean counter" but in fact its senior leadership in a company thats really deciding that balance.
Monst3r_Live@reddit
100%. They are trying to save a few cents here and 1000 other places. Just charge me 5k more for a car thats better.
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
Beancounters ruin CARS.
They help the car INDUSTRY.
Purists: "Why does Porsche make an SUV? Isn't that the absolute worst kind car to make? I wish they only ever just made sports cars!"
Porsche 30 years ago, building only sports cars: lost $100 million in 1995 and sold only 16,000 cars WORLDWIDE.
Porsche these days, building SUVs: was the second-most profitable (highest operating margin) automaker worldwide in 2024, behind only Ferrari, and sold over 310,000 cars, about 60% of which (!185,000) were Cayennes and Macans. They sold 1-1/2 times as many SUVs as they did 911s, Panameras, Boxster/Caymans, and Taycans added together.
Chemical_Support4748@reddit
That's not beancounting.. That's called market expansion
VegasBjorne1@reddit
Lee Iacocca saved Chrysler by expanding the market into the mini-vans. His K-Cars also helped Chrysler become profitable and he was an engineer, not an accountant.
cromulent-facts@reddit
To be fair to Porsche - it is far easier for people with families to justify buying a Cayenne or Macan than a 911 or Boxster. Given the prices of real estate, a large proportion of their target market can't justify a weekend car. It's the "where do I store it" question, not "can I afford it".
That wasn't a beancounter decision. It may have been a marketing manager decision, but if they were total purists they would just make Caterham Super 7's.
Also remember - even the Panamera was controversial when it came out.
downshiftdata@reddit
bean counters are ruining every industry
style, craftsmanship, and quality are too expensive for quarterly growth targets
ProJoe@reddit
it's not the "bean counters"
it's the executives who only care about what the bean counters say.
the stock market is far, far more responsible than some financial analysts.
Fluffysharkdatazz@reddit
Is this a Mercedes? I noticed each year the same models got cheaper and cheaper in build and material quality, it’s my least favorite brand now in our lot for that.
present_absence@reddit
one thousand million billion percent. the need for continual profit growth is THE reason anything fucking sucks.
PetriDishCocktail@reddit
I have a 2023 model vehicle. The vehicle was all new for 2022. The upgrade for 2023 was to remove the rear USB ports. For 2024 they removed the rear air conditioning controls, but it still had vents. For 2025 they removed the little pockets and niceties that were in the trunk. For 2026 they have removed the rear vents and the locking rear seat pass through entirely. There were other electronic features removed as well, but this is just an example.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
I roll a '14 because after that year they lost important features.
Autobacs-NSX@reddit
What car is this?
Efficient-Webs@reddit
They’re pikers compare to MBAs
Tossaway198832@reddit
Not a bad thing, but it kills reliability and forces them to put in dumb shit like auto stop/start, cylinder deactivation and the like. It’s essentially killed simple, reliable and easy to work on NA V8s and sent us to complicated twin turbo set up, which are fun but expensive, complicated and a PITA to work on.
The bean counters as other posters point out do harm as well.
VegasBjorne1@reddit
Started over 40 years ago. Read “The Reckoning”by David Halberstam which contrast the rise of Nissan and the collapse of Ford. Good read.
ratmanmedia@reddit
Yeah. Bean counters are why we’re seeing fewer physical buttons, among other terrible design and UI choices.
Legitimate-Duty-5622@reddit
Not really. Cars now have so many features I dare you to try to design a dashboard that does all the functions of a modern car. Especially a nice car, Alexis Mercedes a BMW, etc. your entire dashboard would be nothing but buttons and knobs. I draw the line that I need to have a knob for the radio volume. lol
ratmanmedia@reddit
Not every feature needs a button, I admit. But basic navigation of the screen should be operable through physical buttons as well as HVAC and disabling Auto Start/Stop (though we should also be able to disable that entirely if we wanted to).
DanR5224@reddit
The 2020+ Land Rover Defender has a collection of buttons with multi-function knobs. The screen is used for Android/Apple stuff, media, and HVAC vent modes. Fan speed, temperature, seats, audio volumn, and more have buttons. It works quite well.
Wolf_Ape@reddit
Not really. Bean counters have alway found corners to cut somewhere. They’re just cutting different corners based on a shifting product design. Executives have pushed an all encompassing strategy for streamlining controls and detrimentally modifying, eliminating, or replacing even the objectively best possible mechanical component designs, to further a goal of incorporating as many systems as possible into a universal electronic operating system that that simplifies production, secondary parts support obligations, reduces overhead costs, and strong arms owners into choosing licensed dealer repair shops guaranteeing a greater percentage of post-purchase revenue potential by denying/complicating access to independent mechanics, and sabotaging the r&d efforts of aftermarket parts suppliers.
Basically the same as how a cellphone screen repair shop can’t fix your newer iPhone because your screen module has a unique identifier coded to pair and communicate with the other uniquely coded components in your phone. Without the approval and cooperation of apple you can’t make the two pieces work together.
Maybe someone really clever will figure out a way around the issue for your car, but then an “over the air update” or dealer technician using a factory diagnostic tool will trigger a communication error and brick your car. A purely mechanical component can’t snitch if you modify it, or have it repaired by someone other than dealer technician. That’s why swapping mechanical designs for an inferior alternative electronic device, or electromechanical, or electronically monitored/controlled component is such a widespread practice, why it’s so important for the industry to try and convince consumers it’s a legitimate improvement, and why they are so desperate to promote the idea that anyone complaining is just a neo-Luddite or a biased old fool that’s irrationally afraid of change.
So mostly the average north American consumer is ruining the industry by being ignorant or complacent about this situation. Many of those same consumers are part of the same group that steadily shifted market share to the makers of the cheapest cars that offered the most unnecessary pseudo-luxury gadgets, and made it clear that the design of the underlying machine was way down on the list of priorities. Over time manufacturers have found the sweet spot where the car is a crappy as possible without raising too much backlash from the average owner, and parts/labor costs for warranty obligations are reduced enough to compensate for any potential loss while the product remains under warranty.
Too many people have strong opinions, and uncompromising standards… based on useless features, and a complete lack of knowledge or appreciation for the machine they are actually shopping for.
It’s only partially the consumers fault if you zoom out a bit. Geography, state/federal infrastructure, and employer real estate planning and shipping cost analysis that chooses facility locations using the extended commuter distance and proposals for self serving tax funded road projects as a calculated way to bargain with governments when choosing a location.
In doing this corporations and numerous industries in general, along with governments on local/state/federal levels, are shifting a portion of their financial burdens onto employees and taxpayers, a trend that creates and expands geographically isolated suburbs, shuffles employment opportunities away from areas that have reliable transportation infrastructure, and drains the transportation budgets of the areas involved by negotiating a contract with the city/state that requires investments in special road construction projects, improvements to highway access, road widening/resurfacing, and any number of other things.
They have created the perfect circumstances to make 99% of people who do not give a shit about cars, have absolutely no choice but to spend much of their lives in car, and those people with little or no knowledge or interest beyond comfort, fundamentally unrelated gadgets and entertainment features, or superficial nonsense have become the most influential demographic on the automotive marketplace.
It goes back further than that, and obviously the oil & gas industry deserves some credit, but I’ve already said more than most will bother to read. That is an incredibly complicated question if you want an answer more useful than “yes and no”, and I’m not even willing to attempt proofreading and fixing the complete syntax catastrophe up to this point.
Rare-Bet-870@reddit
What’s a bean counter
SAR_89@reddit
Bean counters who end up is CEOs, sure, but not average bean counters.
MoaiTrist@reddit
Without naming names, I once worked for what was once the largest automotive manufacturer in the world by a large margin. The answer is YES, but the engineers are fighting back. It's a constant battle.
Chazzer74@reddit
Outside of the super/hyper car makers, the last time an engineer defeated the bean counters with a non-special edition car was Shigeru Uehara and the S2000.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
Bob Lutz managed to push through some cool and wacky stuff.
Mr_dm@reddit
“Bean counters”
It’s capitalism bro. They’re perfecting the ratio of selling you the cheapest shit for the most money possible.
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
Not really. What a lot of car guys I think fail to understand is how much market research companies do. They talk to people who intend to buy their cars. And thoroughly ask them for input. Go do a hands on, in person survey where you're paid a couple hundred bucks for your input on new models coming out. They don't just ask you a couple things and send you home. If they can save money by changing something not really in demand they will.
Hell people even misunderstood the BMW heated seat subscription debacle. What people heard was BMW is charging you monthly if you want heated seats. That's not what was happening. 90% of cars were ordered with heated seats. It would save money to have all cars just come installed with them, and the cars not optioned with them would just have them behind a paywall with the option to turn them on.
SuperPark7858@reddit
No, the consumer is ruining the car indusrry. No one cares about driving passion/involvement anymore, so nobody buys sports cars, so almost everything is soulless. The people want SUV tanks and pickup trucks. That's the problem.
DickWhittingtonsCat@reddit
Is this a time capsule question from 1981?
Fat_Bearded_Tax_Man@reddit
No. We just tell sales and operations what thongs costs and they decode what to do next.
Inevitable-Post-8587@reddit
Capitalism is the word you’re looking for.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Fuck off pinko.
CommonBubba@reddit
I don’t think it’s fair to blame capitalism when a good number of the cost and reliability issues stem from trying to meet government regulations.
Glum-Welder1704@reddit
If they're the ones telling management that what we want is more expensive, disposable cars, then yes. I'm sure $65k trucks make Ford a lot of money, but they do damn all for the rest of us.
guyfromthepicture@reddit
No. I'm not even sure it's close. Besides, they would be a reaction what is ruining the industry which is the customer.
LongjumpingCat6642@reddit
Don’t forget it’s every publicly traded companies #1 legal goal to make the shareholders the most money possible. Bean counters help that
totallyjaded@reddit
What period of time are you hearkening back to?
Just for example's sake, the infamous cost-benefit analysis for Ford Pinto fires was written 53 years ago.
robert32940@reddit
It's all goes back to that mother fucker from GE, Jack Welch.
ScienceWasLove@reddit
Every increasing MPG standards are what is ruining car engines and transmissions.
owlwise13@reddit
They are just the tools of the shareholders sucking every once of profit out of every industry. The shareholders don't care as long as they get double digit profit increases.
Orangeshowergal@reddit
The obsession to grow revenue past inflation is ruining everyone
Wigberht_Eadweard@reddit
“Bean counter” = accountants? No. People don’t realize it but accountants are a necessary evil and are probably the only ones keeping most brands from completely tanking. They’re just making sure companies are following the rules and crunching numbers to see how much stuff costs. Accounting is not forward thinking.
“Bean counter” = finance, marketing, and legal departments? Probably.
Finance is looking to meet growth targets and trying pull growth out of their asses (and accounting will check them when they try to do something egregious). They can charge more for big stupid SUVs and trucks, so they do. They can put low profile tires on everything and stiff suspension and call it “sporty” and charge extra for it. Have you completely fucked up a wheel or tire on a newer car recently? The potholes haven’t gotten bigger, your tires just have no sidewall for no reason besides high speed performance you’ll literally never need. Then you have legal making sure they can just keep making bigger vehicles in compliance with CAFE instead of engineers working on making normal sized efficient vehicles. When they aren’t too busy calculating whether or not it’s worth rectifying issues through a recall or letting people sue when drivetrains lock up on highways and people get killed, of course.
420aarong@reddit
It’s not the bean flickers
LankyJeep@reddit
Waves hands frantically at the diminishing quality of absolutely everything everywhere and the worsening economic situation. In short yes absolutely 100%
androk@reddit
Bad executives are. Making bad decisions that engineers and manufacturing have to follow
kilertree@reddit
In what situation? This car has to meet a certain gas mileage or get hit by a gas guzzler tax or we should sale people's data to insurance companies.
coreyjdl@reddit
Stupid buyers are ruining the car industry.
No_Win7658@reddit
They have been for a 100 years.
Without them no SUV or pickup.
I used to read a lot of stories about carbrand history. Yeah - bean counters killed a lot of car brands and a lot of people as well
Sad-Celebration-7542@reddit
Hm clearly no? All carmakers have always had accountants. All carmakers have always existed to make a profit. If you don’t like the offerings, that’s because your desires probably aren’t profitable
VegaGT-VZ@reddit
No and when people cry about bean counters they are telling you they don't know anything about the car business.
On-A-Plain187@reddit
Bean counters ruin everything. Once any company or industry gets too big the only way to grow is more and more micro management.
PerformanceDouble924@reddit
No, industry greed and Americans being bad at math is ruining the car industry.
The average American doesn't really grasp the power of compound interest. All he knows is he only wants to spend $X00 per month on his car payment.
So you end up with a Mustang GT that costs $50-60k, but over an 84-96 month loan, it's "affordable."
This is why Americans own $1.66 trillion in auto loans.
A recession is going to hammer the car market, as all those upside down loans will be getting repoed, and that's a lot of money.
PowerfulFunny5@reddit
I’ll blame Marketing being too concentrated on what gets customers into a dealership for one sale vs what makes a happy long term customer (reliability, ergonomics, efficiency, safety)
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Nope
HeliumAlloy@reddit
no sir, "infotainment" ruin car industry