Question about the missing F15 pilot in Iran
Posted by svbstvnce@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 276 comments
[removed]
Posted by svbstvnce@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 276 comments
[removed]
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
The thing with beacons is they work for everyone.
It's not a beacon that only USAF can detect. It's a beacon that blasts out RF that everyone can locate. So activate it, talking on the radio is a good way to get found by your guys, or the other guys.
Which is why you may not want to activate it.
Ididyourmomtwice@reddit
Iran is huge, that's the problem. It is bigger than Alaska. I believe the pilot is 300-350 miles behind enemy lines.
With a small country, like Iraq, you can navigate to an extraction point, and send out a beacon. Which is what they are trained to do.
But in Iran, you could be 100 miles away from where you need to be.
Sorry, but it sounds like a Navy Seals situation to me. Not a simple extraction. They will have to shoot their way in, and shoot their way out.
More likely, the pilot is running low on water, food, and energy, and either gets caught, or hands themselves in.
redskylion510@reddit
That's not a navy seal situation, plent of other SOF units that will be better for this.
Ididyourmomtwice@reddit
"They will have to shoot their way in, and shoot their way out"
Which is exactly what happened. Suck it losers, I was right
BleaKrytE@reddit
Well I stand corrected.
BleaKrytE@reddit
Like the PJs, whose sole reason for existing is this. And they're very good at it.
makatakz@reddit
The new beacons only respond to a properly encoded interrogation request.
Noon_Specialist@reddit
They can still triangulate it.
makatakz@reddit
With specialized equipment that can capture instant LOBs from a burst transmission, but they would need to have a generalized location to position receivers, be on the correct frequency or range, and be able to capture instant LOBs from the CSEL transmitter. Also, other devices in the same frequency range will interfere and give spurious LOBs. It’s not as simple as some make it seem. Finally, decoy transmitters could be placed to add confusion.
Ligalotz@reddit
Thank god someone here understands how this works lmao. I’ve been going fucking insane the last few days reading the completely ignorant comments people have been leaving EVERYWHERE about this downed pilot and cso. People seriously thinking Iran has sophisticated equipment to intercept signals just chilling on hand ready to go domestically whenever. Also not to mention the extremely low footprint a c cell leaves, especially when sending messages
Silly_Priority8048@reddit
No one here yet understands encryption vs transmission.
Noon_Specialist@reddit
It doesn't matter if it's encrypted or not, there will be intermittent transmissions once they're within range. It's a race for both sides to find the pilot at that point. America will probably have more luck, though.
flightwatcher45@reddit
They can flash invisible to the eye lasers that friends can see with the correct optics.
Noon_Specialist@reddit
You think the Iranians don't have modern optics?
Key_Dream9904@reddit
Nobody has seen Predator 2
ColossusA1@reddit
People in here seem to think the U.S. has some super communications technology that transcends the basic principles of energy. If they're sending out a signal, they're making themselves vulnerable. The energy spectrum is the energy spectrum.
stickwigler@reddit
The enemy doesn't care about the words that were transcieved. They care about the beeps and boops when you press the button.
WorldlyOriginal@reddit
But not all “sending out a signal” are alike. You could send a laser beam, for example, that would be pointed directly at a receiver. You’d have to be very close to that wavepath to ‘hear’ it. Is it impossible to detect it? No, but it’d be very very difficult, beyond the known capabilities of human science
PrismDoug@reddit
See, IR lasers can be seen when NVG. UV lasers can be seen with different optics. It’s not impossible to create an optical scanner for non-visible light.
You can also scan for other LOS communications, such as MASER (microwave).
TF Ranger had IR strobes on their kit, so pilots with NVGs could see them. If the Somali had NVGs and high enough rooftops, they, too, would have seen them.
If you are sending out ANYTHING, it can be traced back to you. If someone is blanketing an area with, say, an IR laser, looking for you to properly “reflect” it back? That’s you lighting up like a flare for IR imaging.
flightwatcher45@reddit
Yes I agree we don't necessarily have exceptionally better tech but we do slightly have the advantage in tactics and tech. Just wearing an IR strobe that can only be seen when overhead good.
Comprehensive_View91@reddit
Source please
bo-monster@reddit
Not if LPI waveforms are used.
makatakz@reddit
Look up COBRA waveforms.
makatakz@reddit
I certainly do. https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/yxX8kwDBw9
bo-monster@reddit
LPI waveforms exist. They are extremely difficult to DETECT, much less triangulate unless you have a properly coded receiver. Ask yourself if the DoD would want enemy forces to be able to find downed airmen by taking LOBs.
skyn_fan@reddit
What frequency should they listen to for the fraction of a second that the beacon transmits?
Noon_Specialist@reddit
Do you really think the Iranians can't cover a wide range of frequencies? They're not in the Stone Age like the Taliban.
fighterace00@reddit
Wait until you hear how hard it is for someone to triangulate a beacon on 121.5 in the US that wants to be found.
makatakz@reddit
I’ve done it in Civil Air Patrol. It’s a fucking pain in the ass. The signal gets picked up by power lines and reflected by geography and infrastructure. End up literally chasing your (airplane) tail.
therealjerseytom@reddit
Well probably especially difficult with all the cat meows mixed in
skyn_fan@reddit
Do you really think the United States military hasn’t thought of the enemy’s ability to triangulate radio transmissions and develop a frequency hopping burst transmission system to mitigate that?
Like some USAF general is going to be reading Reddit: “Oh, shoot! I never thought that just yapping away on a single frequency like we were looking for a Cessna in a farm field might be risky!”
makatakz@reddit
That’s exactly what the CSEL radio is.
Dizzy_-_@reddit
A burst low-power directed beam straight up to a satellite is not that trivial to triangulate.
skyn_fan@reddit
I wonder if the USAF thought of putting any EW assets in theatre…
chiniwini@reddit
Amateur equipment can listen on all possible frequencies at the same time for the price of an iPhone. Imagine what a gov can do.
makatakz@reddit
Yes! A gov can place decoy transmitters to throw off any attempts to capture accurate LOBs.
Matban09@reddit
If you don't speak spanish, and your neighbor yells in spanish, you can still hear someone yelling.
Kardinal@reddit
Exactly this. Radio triangulation is trivially easy, the technology has been around as long as radio. They light that up, and the bad guys will know exactly where they are very quickly.
Strega007@reddit
They're not blasting out a beacon on 121.5 or 243.0. They're using an encrypted text-burst transmission containing their GPS position that is sent via SATCOM.
Silly_Priority8048@reddit
What does encryption matter? Iran doesn’t care what GPS coordinates are being sent encrypted iran can see a location in their country that’s transmitting out of country and will see the coordinates. There are rolling blackouts and no internet still so only limited people have access to transmit inside to outside Iran.
abcpdo@reddit
i’m assuming transmitting directly to a satellite is very directional and therefore harder to intercept
makatakz@reddit
That’s correct, but the CSEL radio seems to have an omnidirectional antenna. It uses burst transmissions in response to interrogations, so very hard to triangulate.
Silly_Priority8048@reddit
The point is it can be triangulated. You completely forget Iran has a capable secret service and systems in place for this war. Half the people in this sub look like fools today thinking encryption means radio waves are made invisible to every transponder ever. I’ve lost all faith in humanity today god bless read a book people
makatakz@reddit
You just seem kind of salty because you don’t know about things like COBRA waveforms.
Silly_Priority8048@reddit
Wrong.
everfixsolaris@reddit
Bursting comms are really hard for radio direction finding to locate. Depending on the system it may be less than a one second transmission every hour. Depending on the waveform CDMA signals are also below the noise floor of the receiver due to the spreading effect of code modulation, conversely a CDMA receiver with the right code enhances the signal on reception and reduces noise.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Bursting comms would be relevant if they were in use... But both the PRC-112 and URT-46 use swept-tone transmissions for both VHF and UHF. It's how the ejection seat was found in the first place...
CDMA signals are only relevant for contact and decryption, they have no influence on RDF efficacy.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Uh... That's exactly what URT-46s do. They're blasting 121.5 and 243.0 alongside SARSAT from the very second they're activated.
Don't tell me you legitimately believe that the current beacon suite only transmits one singular frequency...
Strega007@reddit
Not talking about the PLBs.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Then what are you talking about? PRC-112 has the exact same SAR functions, so it isn't different in any way.
Strega007@reddit
The CSELs aren't automatically transmitting a beacon on guard the same way a PLB does after an ejection, which is what the original posts were saying and which I was replying to.
No, the Iranians are not out geo-locating off CSEL (or even Hook 112) burst transmissions.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
It doesn't matter, as PLBs are an integral part of the egress system that aren't simply removed once a unit is equipped with CSELs. It's an entirely automated part of egress.
They most definitely can, that's how they found the base of the ejection seat despite Lakenheath's F-15's sporting PLBs with interval sweeping. As I've said to another:
Strega007@reddit
You know that's how the seats were located?
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Yeah, telemetry pingers that function on the same A/B bands but without the SARSAT functionality. Just like most other sets, it's only about a 3 minute stepped transmission instead of the 5 minute sweep of most handhelds. To my remembrance they only run for 2 days before depleting battery.
The seat's locator uses the same functions to be found as a pilot's SAR kit. Not sure why I need to tell you this 3 times, but it's a little sad that I do.
Strega007@reddit
I'm asking if you know that's specifically how these seats were found, not that it is conceptually possible.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
It's more than likely how they were found, the conceptual possibility and long-lasting (since the early '60s) history of disaster recovery is only backing it.
makatakz@reddit
The current CSEL radio only transmits in response to a properly encoded interrogation.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Current? I wish I we had them, lol.
CSEL still operates on the legacy LOS and SARSAT modes, every capability of the PLB and CSAR is present on the CSEL. The only polled mode is TAG, while its beacon function still sits on A/B bands and SARSAT.
makatakz@reddit
Nobody is going to use the beacon unless rescue is imminent. I saw in another post a few minutes ago that both crewmen have been rescued.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
It's the exact opposite, beacon modes are to be used until rescue is imminent. That's the entire reason why TAG exists, beacons are easy to track but hard to pinpoint while locators are extremely easy to locate but hard to track.
If your SAR set sat on its locator mode, you'd be out there for weeks without a single friendly on the way.
Kardinal@reddit
Yeah I think I need to edit my original message. I've been reading up since I wrote it and my analysis is dated and simplistic. Thanks for the further info.
Strega007@reddit
https://www.navair.navy.mil/product/combat-survivor-evader-locator-csel-system
ChopAndDrop27@reddit
The downed crew member’s radio set only responds to an encrypted authentication code transmitted from SAR aircraft. In addition to lat/long location data, the radio set supports encrypted voice and text communication.
It doesn’t just broadcast a signal that everyone can detect.
1II1I1I1I1I1I111I1I1@reddit
It doesn't broadcast a signal that everyone can read. The transmitter can still be located through its RF emissions even if they dont know what its saying.
ChopAndDrop27@reddit
The system was designed to make it very difficult to detect the signals to/from the beacon which does not make long, sustained transmissions.
The beacon is designed to send a heavily encrypted (NSA Spec) data burst to a military com satellite which relays the data to the SAR aircraft. The aircraft can also send a data burst to the beacon via the satellite. It takes less than a second for the data burst to make the trip.
The downed crewmember can use the low power transmitter in the beacon to have UHF half-duplex voice com with the SAR aircraft when it is within a 1-3 mile range and in clear line of sight. With such limited range, an enemy receiver would have to be very close to detect the signal.
To further complicate detecting the signal, the beacon utilizes frequency hopping. The frequency is randomly changed hundreds of time a second. The SAR aircraft knows the "key" so it can follow the frequency jumps.
Qel_Hoth@reddit
That depends entirely on how the transmitter works though.
An always on omnidirection transmission? Yeah, RDF can find that very easily.
Bursting omnidirectional transmission? Yes, RDF can find it, but it's harder and takes longer.
Bursting directional transmissions? Much harder for RDF to find it. There will always be some leakage even in a directional transmission, but much less than just an omnidirectional scream into the void.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Uh... No, it doesn't.
Bursting directional transmission is only applicable to SARSAT transmission, neither of the constant UFH/VHF signals broadcasting from a locator are bursted, nor directional.
BooksandBiceps@reddit
If I’m screaming a few blocks away, you’re going to be able to find me by following my voice. Doesn’t matter if I’m speaking another language, if all you want to do is find me.
Raptorwolf98@reddit
Except it’s not a steady yell, more like someone making very different animal sounds at varying intervals that you have to be extremely close to hear.
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Except it is, B and A band locators are extremely steady in transmission power and are extremely easy to spot on waterfall scopes.
Anybody with an amateur SDR and access to 2 or more street lamps for a makeshift InSAR array can hone in on the direction and strength of the URT-46 and PRC-112 within 35 minutes (to a 1.5dg accuracy) if they have basic entry-level knowledge of CI methods.
BooksandBiceps@reddit
Sounds like you know more about this than I do, and I’d expect a more nuanced approach than wide band yelling at the skies so adds up.
_Californian@reddit
That's how ADF works, that's not how LARS works.
iliveforareason@reddit
Why can’t they put an air tag somewhere in their clothes?
makatakz@reddit
They got stuff a lot crazier than that.
iliveforareason@reddit
So wouldn’t they know where the other person is?
makatakz@reddit
It depends on who you are and what you’re issued. Aircrew have their CSEL radio, which is pretty good.
Soft_Ad_4558@reddit
Cobra waveforms
makatakz@reddit
Yep
jcla@reddit
Yes they do carry beacons. The CSAR aircraft will have the ability to track the beacon. They usually have comms as well, both voice and data.
Successful_Bar9187@reddit
So if the pilots carry beacons why hasn’t the weapons officer been rescued, unless his beacon was damaged and his comms are gone
jcla@reddit
There are a million reasons why rescuing someone behind enemy lines might not be possible. Here's a few:
SummerInPhilly@reddit
I know it along after the rescue, but there were two other possibilities mentioned by NYT: 1. they’re advised to use the beacon sparingly, and 2. it takes a while to plan the rescue
Malacath816@reddit
What would make a rescue team decide a rescue attempt is safe or not?
jcla@reddit
It's a war zone. They have to cross enemy territory to get near the scene and the enemy has weapons that can shoot down aircraft and low and slow helicopters. Once on the ground people can shoot the rescuers.
The CSAR team will have weapons and close air support but they don't want to kill the survivor either, so they can't just level the area to keep themselves safe.
Longjumping-Pay2953@reddit
Broken beacon, captured, hard do get to area etc. Several possible reasons
No-Sprinkles2661@reddit
Why can’t they find him if they have a beacon? I don’t understand how they can’t find him?!
jcla@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1sbfh4m/comment/oe9aymu
JackfruitJolly4794@reddit
Do they carry any other communication device besides a beacon? Say a sat phone or something? I guess there could be fears of that being tracked by the enemy
Tough-Case-@reddit
Finally, an answer! :)
ReliefRevolutionary8@reddit
Both F15 crew were rescued and the A10 pilot also.
svbstvnce@reddit (OP)
Is this a recent update?
Mtnrock2@reddit
That is BS . there is no update , one F15E crew member is still missing
Great_Will_1361@reddit
Look again broski
Mtnrock2@reddit
You see that my comment is over 2 days old now ??!!!
ProfessionalResult54@reddit
Well hes been found, thank God. More than they did at Benghazi
IndygoMontoya@reddit
Iran would not necessarily announce his capture if they had him because then they get the opportunity to try to poach more search and rescue planes/choppers
Meth_Useler@reddit
One of the two are found alive and rescued
Spaceballthelunchbox@reddit
Seems odd that they would find one but not both..
Ok-Consequence-3117@reddit
Ejecting from a fighter jet - especially one that is probably pulling evasive maneuvers - is an extremely violent affair
Those two crew members probably ended up landing nowhere near each other. Just depends oj all kinds of factors
iswhyouhavenofriends@reddit
They don't even deploy at the same time - each operator pulls their own actuator, right?
Considering how fast they're moving, even a 1/2 second separation would mean they eject at different vectors and from different locations.
What I don't know is what degree of communication and steering they have once the chute is deployed. I'd guess that SOP would be that they do their best to stay together.
Alypius754@reddit
No, they’re ganged. Pulling one ejects both in case the other is incapacitated. There is a second or two of separation so they don’t collide, though.
iswhyouhavenofriends@reddit
So the WSO could theoretically overrule the pilot and eject both of them?
Alypius754@reddit
It’s not “overrule”, they’re a team. If either pulls the handle, the other trusts that there’s a damn good reason. What if the pilot blacks out or has some other incapacitating condition? The back-seater doesn’t have flight controls, so there’s nothing s/he could do. So yes, either can pull, both depart the aircraft.
fuckitfromLafitte@reddit
Actually on the F15 the back seater does have flight capability and there also a selector switch for the ejection, and can be both go or Aft only if initiated from the rear. If initiated from the front, both seats are ejected.
iswhyouhavenofriends@reddit
Gotcha.
Makes sense, thanks
LeadPike13@reddit
What does the execution of evasive maneuvers have to do with the crew's proximity to eachother, after ejection?
scrumpymantis@reddit
The two seats don't fire out of the plane at the exact same time - close together but they're staggered to avoid them hitting each other. If the plane is manouvering in some way then they may well have different exit vectors and differring amounts of air resistence impact to that exit trajectory. Add in exit altitude and winds and they could seperate quite far.
LeadPike13@reddit
The front seat fires approximately 0.3 to 0.4 seconds after the rear seat. Rear seat slight right, front seat slight left. Total Sequence Time: The entire sequence, from initiation to the seat leaving the cockpit, is completed in under a second, with full parachute deployment occurring within 2–4 seconds. This puts them pretty much in the same slice of sky. No mater what maneuvering the jet is doing.
Inside-Definition-42@reddit
Each person is in charge of their own ejection, right?
Are they only staggered if both are pulled at the same time?
LaughingGravy13@reddit
They didn't necessarily even ejection at the same time. The pilot decides how much ejection command he wants to give to the JAFO.
Uncabuddha@reddit
When either pilot pulls the handles the back seat goes first so he doesn't get cooked by the front seat rocket.
Rude_Criticism_6702@reddit
Really impossible to speculate on what happened. I guess after they debrief the pilot, maybe (and I mean MAYBE) there might be added information out of the Pentagon. I believe everyone knew this was going eventually happen. During Desert Storm, we lost 40+ allied aircraft (most to enemy aircraft defense). We have been fortunate that we have not lost more. Certainly shows a difference in technology today. The F15 was the primary Air Force aircraft used during that campaign. My thought on the downing is that it was hit probably hit by a shoulder launched heat seeker at very close range (probably from behind), giving the pilot very little (if any) warning of a launch. There is also heavy ground fire/Ack Ack that may have scored a lucky shot. Either way, it certainly shows just how vulnerable the aircraft still are. Does anyone know if the US Air Force is pushing the new F15X model into service? Or is the aircraft only manufactured for sale to our allies.......if any still exist.... So sad...
Uncabuddha@reddit
No EXs since it is for air superiority and we have that.
Doomlord1s@reddit
I believe the accepted best tactic is to split up, UK pilots that were captured planned on splitting up before jeeps full of Iraqi soldiers appeared.
PetePilot@reddit
Contrary to your statement: speculation is very easy.
wanderer_577@reddit
Thanks for posting. Make sense.
slowpoke2018@reddit
Add to that a lot depends how high they were. If at >10K feet could see them separated by miles and miles if it were windy
trevor_plantaginous@reddit
Yep. If they were 10k feet it would take 8-12 minutes to descend. The average seperation would probably be about 8800 feet but could be more depending on conditions. If they were over a mountain they could literally land on the other side of a mountain from each other
Wantoffthisride@reddit
It isn't odd at all... The aircraft is moving very swiftly, the weapons operator ejected after the pilot.. So naturally they could have ended up miles away from one another. Also, they are trained to split either way.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Just read a report that three rescued pilot was from a downed A10 near the strait, and not from the F15.
kil0ran@reddit
Is that a first combat loss of an A10?
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
No, but it's the first in 20 or so years.
7 were shot down before and around 70 were damaged but managed to rtb.
Choice_Economics2151@reddit
There's only 1 A10 pilot and no one else. The other 2 missing are from the F-15, the pilot and the weapons officer (back seat)
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Yeah, that's what I read. That the A10 pilot was rescued and that one UH60 csar heli crash landed in the border between Iran/Iraq but the crew are safe.
Other folks said the WSO from the F15 was also rescued but I saw no confirmation of that anywhere. Fog of war is a bitch.
Rude_Criticism_6702@reddit
Their rush to be first with the reporting .... No one ever confirms anything anymore. Lately, I have been watching Sky News (Australia). I have to turn to a network on the other side of the planet to try and get accurate news reporting. What a generation....
boobookittyfuwk@reddit
A10 pilot rescued
One f15 aviator rescued the other missing still.
Two helicopters were shot, small arms fire, at during the search and rescue, soldiers on board injured but all helicopters landed safely outside of iran
That's how im understanding the situation, from.what uve read on , ABC, CBS, and nyt
blorgcumber@reddit
No. They rescued a crew member from the F-15 and the A-10 pilot. The other F-15 crew member is still missing
Rude_Criticism_6702@reddit
Fake news network CNN (I know everyone is tired of hearing that) just a few hours ago stated "both airmen from the F15E have not been found"...... Give me a break...can they ever get it right? Whomever posted that should be FIRED!!!
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Ok! Reports are confusing and contradictory now, thanks for clarifying.
Is this confirmed on any news site? X accounts and telegram channels are a mess.
boobookittyfuwk@reddit
Osint technical on x isn't bad, they usually.site there sources from mainstream media
tagillaslover@reddit
They could have landed far away from eachother depending on when each member ejected and the wind
frghu2@reddit
Unlikely. If you watch Top Gun it proves that two entirely different planes can have pilots eject and find eachother in seconds.
Alibotify@reddit
They eject at the same time but yeah, still can be very far from each other.
Mtnrock2@reddit
They do not eject at the same time . F15E has an automated process and the backseat goes first, once clear of the cockpit Pilot then goes.
Inside-Definition-42@reddit
Interesting comment thx.
So when either ejection handle is pulled both seats are ejected? His buddy doesn’t have to pull his handle too?
Spirited_Orchid_58@reddit
Made my comment. Then say yours.
flightwatcher45@reddit
Its a few seconds delayed, and at the speed they were likely going you cover a lot of distance between.
Fit-Good-6515@reddit
It's not a few seconds, it's only 0.4 seconds.
flightwatcher45@reddit
One could have punched out solo depending on mode selected, dual or solo. Do we know here?
juusohd@reddit
No we don´t.
Spirited_Orchid_58@reddit
Saw the IR video. Seemed like 2 completely simultaneous rejections right at the moment of impact (and not like 3-4 seconds after). I don't know if the f15 has some sort of auto ejection in case of severe impact damage from missiles.
Spirited_Orchid_58@reddit
Sae
80sCrack@reddit
500MPH is a mile every 7.2 seconds. So a 2 second delay is a quarter mile apart deployment.
That’s if they’re traveling about 80mph below the F15s cruising speed. If they were anyone near top sop that 2 seconds is closer to like 3/4 of a mile
Wedge_Donovan@reddit
Momentum is also a thing. What you're saying is true in unaccelerated flight. If the airplane is rolling and/or pitching during the ejection, they get literally rocketed in very different directions.
Sockeroo13@reddit
I mean, not really. Not like they were sharing a rocket propelled seat
Mtnbkr92@reddit
Different seats, unless you think one sits in the other’s lap…?
Shoddy-Pop4904@reddit
It sure is a good thing we’ve crippled their anti aircraft abilities according to the president!
bo-monster@reddit
We’ve probably done a good job of degrading their long and medium range SAM systems. It’s the short range SAMs and cannons that are almost impossible to eliminate; there’s too many of them. In previous wars, aircraft have avoided the small stuff by staying at medium altitude or above, out of range. Tactical/operational needs must require some lower altitude attacks in Iran. I won’t even try to guess why.
Shoddy-Pop4904@reddit
/s
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Are you typically this illiterate?
Mtnbkr92@reddit
I swear that comment read differently earlier
PsychologicalGlass47@reddit
Lol, they always do
AlternativePlum6010@reddit
I don’t think they were holding hands and fluttered down softly to the ground when they ejected.
BaronBulb@reddit
Not really, I remember the Israelis lost an F4 in Lebanon back in the 80s.
Both crew ejected safely, the pilot was retrieved by Israeli forces, the weapons operator was captured and is still MIA to this day.
Even the smallest gap between two ejecting aircrew can lead to huge distance between them when they land, plus in hostile territory even a few hundred meters between A and B could be life changing.
BaronBulb@reddit
Not really, I remember the Israelis lost an F4 in Lebanon back in the 80s.
Both crew ejected safely, the pilot was retrieved by Israeli forces, the weapons operator was captured and is still MIA to this day.
Even the smallest physical distance between two ejecting aircrew can be an insurmountable task on the ground in hostile territory.
JlynnKing@reddit
Verified Iran has pilot and Iran has made a statement to pilots mother. He is safe in mountain in Iran. Us is has been striking the area.
No_Wrap361@reddit
Whoever you verified with was totally wrong 🤡
regexaurus@reddit
Not what many sources are saying. A number of sources including the Kenya Times are reporting that the WSO has been safely extracted!
Hawaiisurfing@reddit
Heard they just found him at March Madness game
Trump-A-Stupid-Fuck@reddit
The Iranians know the USA will spend a lot of money and time looking for this aviator. If in fact they do have them in custody, it would make good tactical sense to delay the release of that information.
No-Bowler2791@reddit
If the pilot is found. He is surely dead. He will be beheaded on the internet!
GeriatricSquid@reddit
I actually don’t think so. Iran is playing a very savvy information operations campaign right now. We’re making it easy for them, but they’re playing off very well that this is a war of aggression and they’re the aggrieved party. Their best play would be to treat the captured airman like visiting royalty- make sure the media and all the world sees just how compassionate Iran can be even while being pelted by bombs. There’s enough outrage around the world about US conduct right now, that this is a very valuable opportunity to reinforce that feeling. If the downed airman gets captured and actually makes it into IRGC hands, I think he/she will be safe for a while simply due to their PR value. The risk will be a bunch of pissed off locals or police forces taking their pound of flesh on the downed aggressor airman after being bombed and losing family/friends. If the airman can get through that to forces under central Iranian control, their value for PR will outweigh their satisfaction of inflicting pain.
Now, if the downed airman was Israeli, wholly different story with a much sadder ending.
f23n09fnu0w@reddit
My guess is that they already captured him and haven't announced it because it makes it easy to shoot down US aircraft.
Better_Soft5928@reddit
ONE pilot and ONE wso (weapons systems officer), not that this is incredibly relevant but a respectful distinction. May both come home safe
mr-rob0t@reddit
can they both fly the aircraft? like are they both technically pilots?
Noon_Specialist@reddit
They have less flight training, and might not be rated on the aircraft.
Uncabuddha@reddit
They have no flight training. They have WSO training. Some might be pilot training washouts that transitioned to WSO school.
Noon_Specialist@reddit
Most countries train WSOs on props at a minimum, including the US.
Better_Soft5928@reddit
They have a stick and throttle in the back, but the WSO is not a rated pilot. Other than flying straight and level, plus maybe some other basic phases of flight, the pilot MUST to be in control. It’s not just two different names, it’s two different job titles. Both the Pilot and the WSO go through different training programs in accordance with their job
WeirdTalentStack@reddit
No. One does the driving, the other - though shocking given the title - operates the weapons systems.
iCrash92@reddit
this getting upvoted definitively proves the unreliability of reddit
shefwed82@reddit
They have full controls in the back and can fly it.
Aidan196@reddit
Theres a difference between physically having the ability to move the controls and being able to fly the plane. In my experience most WSOs are not rated pilots
Fickle_Flower6199@reddit
I believe the WSO probably has flight training to some extent. There are flight controls in the back seat of an f15E so I would assume so at least (don’t quote me) But I don’t know the extent of their training
Vikkunen@reddit
It's worth pointing out the downed aircraft is actually a twin seater with both a pilot and a weapons officer. Reports are that USAF CSAR recovered one with the other still unaccounted for. Not that that answers your question, but know that there are two crew that need recovering.
jrddit@reddit
If it's a twin seat, afaik one crew member bailing will also eject the other. Which means that OP's assumption that they were both alive when they ejected might not be correct. Not sure how this explains the seat being empty though, but interesting.
New_Line4049@reddit
Thats not necceserily true. Command eject is definitely a thing, but its selectable. The crew cand choose weather one ejecting automatically ejects the other or not. Generally its only selectable one way, if the pilot goes they'll always take the weapons officer/nav/whatever the F15 calls its rear seater, but if the rear seater goes it may or may not take the pilot depending on theyre selection.
The seat is always going to be empty. After the rocket motors in the seat shut off the seat and crew member automatically separate and descend on separate chutes. Depending on height there may be a delay in separation if they're high enough to still need the emergency oxygen bottle on the seat, but separation will still automatically occur once low enough.
F14Scott@reddit
Some info from my flying days in a similar jet:
The F-14A had a handle in the aft cockpit against the port bulkhead that could be placed fore or aft, called the command ejection selector. It was labeled "Pilot/ MCO" (Missile Control Officer, an early name for the RIO). In the forward, pilot position, the RIO could eject alone. The handle was selected to there on deck and when non-qualified people got rides in the back seat. When I selected the aft, MCO position, either aircrew ejecting would eject both people. When both people ejected together, first the canopy jettisonned and the RIO went, and then, 0.4 seconds later, the pilot went (to prevent the RIO from getting a face full of the pilot’s fire). The RIO seat had 5 rockets on the left side and 4 on the right, so it biased to the right, coming out. The pilot's seat was 4L/5R, so it biased to the left.
Normally, the canopy's jettisonning was the first part of the standard ejection sequence, but there were three times the crew might want to launch it manually. Each crew member had a yellow handle in front of his right shoulder that would jettison it.
A) If you had to emergency ground egress, like you were on fire badly, blowing the canopy might save a little time scrambling out. On the flight deck, though, I'd be worried about hitting someone with it, in that case.
B) If you had bad smoke and fumes in the cockpit, blowing the canopy would solve that issue, although it would also certainly introduce all kinds of new problems. I once had a small electrical fire whose smoke was burning my pilot's and my eyes badly, but we talked about it and decided not to shuck the canopy until we were absolutely desperate. We got the fire out and came home fine.
C) In an upright flat spin, the aircrew, probably the RIO, was to jettison first, then command eject. The pilot will likely be unable to do either because, sitting 6 feet farther forward, the eyeballs-out G from the spin will likely pin him forward against his instrument panel, unless he gets his harness locked very quickly in the beginning of the spin. One of my pilots got into a fully developed flat spin, and he was indeed stuck with his face up against the turn needle, which was lucky because he could then enter the correct anti-spin flight control inputs and eventually save the jet.
Also, IMO, the biggest factor in two aircrew landing miles apart will the barometric altimeters in the seats being calibrated slightly differently, triggering automatic seat-man separation at different times, altitudes, and winds.
Comprehensive_View91@reddit
F4 had that switch too for the ejection seats too
Kindly_Doubt8120@reddit
This is really informative. All of my flight time is in Army UH-60s, so ejection seats were obviously completely foreign. They've always been really interesting to me though, so thanks!
F14Scott@reddit
Thanks! If you're interested, here's the sea story on that little fire:
F-14 Electrical Fire
Vikkunen@reddit
Correct. When either crewmember triggers the ejection sequence, it's timed so that first the canopy is blown off, then the WSO (rear seat) goes, then the pilot gets shot out a fraction of a second later.
As for the empty seat, that's to be expected. The pilots are still strapped in when the seat shoots out, but once the chute has deployed and the descent has had time to stabilize, the belts should automatically detach and allow the pilot to float down unencumbered.
New_Line4049@reddit
The seat with chute deployed doesnt really tell us much. First, the pilot and seat separate after exiting the aircraft, they both then descend on separate chutes. The best it tells us is that there was an ejection, but one crew member has been recovered already, so that is already known. I wouldnt put any faith in the seat in the images posted being in anyway relevant to the downed F15 either. Theres no way to know from a picture online weather its from that airframe or not, it could easily just be a stock image.
Yes. Theres a beacon in the seat and another worn by each member of aircrew. The crew worn beacons can be turned off, and likely have been. They give your position to friendly SAR, sure, but they also announce your position to anyone else that may be listening, including unfriendly forces that would like to capture you.
Sweetcynic36@reddit
One question - would either side have incentive to immediately announce if he were found? The US would be more than happy to see Iranians waste time looking for him after they had already found him. Iran would be more than happy to keep any capture quiet in order to shoot down or attack rescuers.
Triordie@reddit
Watch behind enemy lines with Owen Wilson
Wild-Possession1186@reddit
Wouldn't it be more beneficial for Iranian forces to not letting US forces know that they captured the pilot, so that the US forces would spend their resource finding someone who isn't there and risk losing more in the SAR process?
Dick_Caught_In_Fan_@reddit
It is in Iran's best interest to keep as many American assets in Iran as long as possible. Even if the pilots dead them keeping America looking offers more opportunities to down more assets.
ErikSchwartz@reddit
A lot of American aircraft flying low and slow is just what they want.
If they have him they will take their sweet time announcing it to the world. They got a huge internal morale boost by downing the aircraft. They can afford to wait a few weeks to announce they have a POW to get another.
bear3742@reddit
Absolutely. The art of war.
BarleyWineIsTheBest@reddit
Depends. Iran likes to pump up their population too. In this case, it's hard to know which way they might want to go, at least to me.
iCrash92@reddit
The vast majority of iranians are rooting against their own government and military, with their fingers crossed they won't personally be blown up in the process.
philip8421@reddit
Supporting voting for a regime change doesn't mean you support your country's invasion, destruction, and subjucation.
Ok-Smell-9154@reddit
Buddy how do you think a regime change happens in places like that.
refalsity@reddit
If you want to use that logic, we can look at what the US did next door in post-Gulf War Iraq, where promises to support Shi'a-led regime change were not kept, and quite frankly, they were hung out to dry.
If there's anything to remember about this region, it is that the culture is ancient and memories are long. Decision cycles are measured in generations--the exact opposite of the US. The fact the US fucked over a potential insurgency in Iraq after said people supported them is not long ago--35 years is a blip in time.
Iranians are not going to trust the US to support their internal version of regime change--they are going to assume that, if successful, the US is going to install their own favored government that supports US interests.
philip8421@reddit
By the people, like when they ousted the last US installed puppet.
iCrash92@reddit
i think you mean British puppet... Reddit really is a cesspit of IQ i guess..
philip8421@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
Are you able to read?
iCrash92@reddit
yes
BigshotRider@reddit
“In places like that” tells me everything I need to know about your kind
ginamegi@reddit
Do you think that commenter is making a racial or religious prejudice statement? Or do you think he’s commenting about the dictatorial government and lack of free speech and free elections?
Ataneruo@reddit
“In places like that” = places that brutally gun down thousands of their own citizens during protests. Please try harder to keep up.
iCrash92@reddit
nothing to say? just downvotes? https://www.iranintl.com/en/202508212335
burlycabin@reddit
That's a year old. Responding to a poll saying you support regime change is dramatically different than saying you support the US invading your own country.
Ataneruo@reddit
Thanks for speaking for the Iranians who had massive protests before thousands of them were slaughtered by their authoritarian regime.
burlycabin@reddit
Dude, I'm not speaking for anybody here. Other people are.
BarleyWineIsTheBest@reddit
Haha, no other people are bring up data about what Iranian say. You're denying it and thus trying to suppress their own voices. You're the baddie dude.
iCrash92@reddit
Apparently 89% of respondents have changed their mind about rejecting the Islamic Republic outright because, you know, reasons. Even though this polling is post assasination of Qasem Soleimani and post bombing of their nuclear facilities
BarleyWineIsTheBest@reddit
I highly doubt you actually support a regime change. A regime is an entire system of government, not who is currently elected lead that government within that system.
burlycabin@reddit
Nope, I'm of opinion that the great American experiment has failed. It's clear to me that we need a systematic change and not simply to vote in some new leadership.
What I do not want is a outside power to force that change on us and force us into whatever standard they want.
BarleyWineIsTheBest@reddit
Well I might have been wrong, but for reasons worse than I thought, because that's dumb opinion.
burlycabin@reddit
We're basically living constitutional crisis every other week these days and you think the system is working just fine as intended? Delusional.
BarleyWineIsTheBest@reddit
It's been that way since the beginning bud. You just don't know your history.
Ok-Smell-9154@reddit
We would have our own revolution. We’re Americans not pusses
iCrash92@reddit
I dont even know what to say. Data sets like that dont get much more recent than literally 8 months ago
burlycabin@reddit
It being a year old is obviously relevant because their country has been invaded since then. That kinda shifts things significantly. Also, you ignored the rest of what I said.
iCrash92@reddit
I would NEVER support the US invading the US. wasteful endeavor imo
motivatedtuna@reddit
not sure why you’re downvoted, it’s correct as much as these uninformed redditors don’t want to agree. I assume I will be downvoted as well for saying that lol
rayfound@reddit
I think yes. Also, I would think they'd want to get a prisoner to a secure location before making any announcements.
bonfuto@reddit
I think that's a good point, they wouldn't want a rescue to take the pilot back if they had captured them.
The Iraqis in Desert Storm took a long time to show any prisoners. The two pilots from our unit weren't shown the first day with the bulk of the captured pilots, so everyone was unhappy about that. Then they brought them out the second day.
Epcplayer@reddit
The flip side of that is that the don’t have the pilot, and are putting out the disinformation to discourage the Americans from looking for and retrieving their pilot. If the US thought the pilot was captured (and wasn’t), it could dissuade them from continuing the search so that the pilot would be stranded… making it more likely the Iranians would capture them.
It’s a game of cat/mouse, and any doubt or hesitancy they can sow gives them an edge.
lordnacho666@reddit
They might not be in control of that.
If I was a teenager who came across a downed pilot, you can bet I would film it and send it to all my friends.
Liberobscura@reddit
Asymmetrical proxies of Iran claimed to have killed the pilot as of today.
Livid-Effect6415@reddit
All good questions and mostly spot on information,but let's let the CSAR & the PJ's do their job (best in the world) and bring a downed Airman to safety. Movies will be made after.
Ididyourmomtwice@reddit
Iran is huge, that's the problem. It is 3x the size of Texas. 1700 miles from east to west. So the pilot is likely to be 300-400 miles behind enemy lines. You dp rceive trai
Wonderful-Air7048@reddit
If the Iranians have captured him, they will most likely remain silent for two reasons:
- There is a possibility of harming rescue teams by planting decoys or simply during the search.
- The US could organize a rescue operation if the location is unsafe. The extraction of Maduro was more complicated, and they managed it.
Zealousideal-Peach44@reddit
There could be plenty of reasons why a downed pilot can't communicate his position. Examples: - He is wounded by the accident, and now hopefully recovering hidden somewhere (or, sadly, dead) - Whenever a US helicopter was above him, he judged the situation too crowdy / dangerous to make them landing - He has been captured, and now the Iranians are deciding which faction will deal with him and where to hide him. Once they will decide it, they will use the pilot comms to bait the CSAR personnel as long as possible, before announcing the capture.
Valspared1@reddit
Some of you here wpuld benefit from NOT posting here until more information is released.
For OPSEC reasons and some of you are just dumb.
Ok_Understanding157@reddit
Yes because OPSEC is breached by discussing publicly available news 😭 you part of MEAL Team 6?
Valspared1@reddit
No, but someone's $0.02 is bound to divulge information in PR that could make things more difficult for the IP.
h0bb1tm1ndtr1x@reddit
Everything being discussed here is wide spread. Go play SIGINT with your ARMA buddies.
Valspared1@reddit
Yeah, this is another dumb comment.
I guess free speech works in your favir also.
Plenty-Resource-248@reddit
Opsec? Reddit posters discussing things they saw on the news is risking opsec? 😂
UKxFallz@reddit
OPSEC went out the window the moment Mr ‘I’m a Drunk and love violence because I’m a psychopath’ took the wheel of the DoD
You find better Opsec on the War Thunder forums these days.
sticka90@reddit
You're an idiot for asking about E+E procedures for an airman.
Rude_Criticism_6702@reddit
Also, the WSO is the first one out...... Bless he/she, and lets pray their evasion training gets them out nice and healthy.......
Rude_Criticism_6702@reddit
Thank you for your discussion post. After looking carefully at the ejection seat pic/vid/tiny chute attached/something doesn't look right. Looks cheap/flimsy/no tech attached.....and what's up with the tiny chute attached......where is the main chute? I am not trying to say that the pilot/wso didn't punch out,,..just saying something looks amiss........
Mtnrock2@reddit
Media reporting that unnamed Pentagon sources have revealed that the Jet was Low and Slow at low altitude and possibly pursuing or had collided with a low speed drone and or gotten hit by surface to air missile -which would be a very lucky strike. F15s , any Fighter jet for that matter , are well known to be less maneuverable at slower speeds than at the higher speeds it normally flies and fights at. Sluggish is a good term to use . Pilots ejecting from a disabled and possibly wildly spinning aircraft can easily be separated by some distance.
Which brings the matter of the Ejection process itself. Its not push a button and float up . Its a violent drastic moment as the canopy blows off first then the whole seat package literally rockets out of the cockpit. Many pilots have been injured during this moment.
My hope is that our Military knows where the other F15 crew member is and just hard to get to them at the moment. Typical extractions happen under cover of the night. Hopefully we know more tomorrow
dawtips@reddit
You could have been downvoted because your title is garbage and uninformative. Put the question in the title next time.
Boogalorian1@reddit
Being an F-15E, they’re equipped with an Aces II seat which has a pilot locator beacon stored in the survival kit underneath the seat. The survival kit is attached to the seat by a nylon lanyard but it is very possible that if a violent maneuver occurred, the survival kit could have been pulled far off from where the pilot/seat landed.
Sensitive-Length4659@reddit
Yes but it's CUI and the details can't be shared
MeMyselfAndYoMomma@reddit
Unfortunately, if captured, I can see them waiting for what they consider the right moment for maximum propaganda. So, who knows? They are trained to escape and evade so hoping for the best.
OE2KB@reddit
Yes- and a lot of training in evasion. And it is night time there. Praying for this airman hard…
kholodnoyesteniy@reddit
idk bout the rest but I’ll say the seat being intact isn’t relevant to the pilot, they don’t sit on the seat till they get to the ground.
SugarBeefs@reddit
I was scrolling through the replies to see if someone mentioned it or whether I had to go point it out lol.
aria_jena_mi@reddit
Is there any information about how was the crew member rescued (thank god, praying for the other one)? Doesn't matter official or unofficial. I'm just curious how did that operation work, what helicopters/planes were used, anything.. I appreciate the insight and replies.
Gullible_Painting334@reddit
Is that all you're doing? You should do more. Join the war effort.
peter_piper_aus@reddit
I'm guessing, even if the Iranians found the pilot, it would take some time to secure him and coordinate with superiors on the communication strategy?
Providing photos and proof they captured him would only make them a target for the rescue and given the value of the pow, the communication will be discussed at the most senior levels
SpicyPanda23@reddit
The pilots do have a means of sending their location to search and rescue.
But if they can see a signal then so can the Iranians.
Their Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) training teaches them what to do. In this situation they will probably head to a location that is beneficial to rescue and also hidden and away from known Iranian forces
Birks0909@reddit
I’m very uneducated in this subject, Does the pilot fly with a small map attached to them so in the case they get downed they can pull the map out and go to a designated location that was taught to them via SERE?
boobookittyfuwk@reddit
Im not an aviator or military, I've just been reading a lot about what pilots do in this situation.
Yes, they all carry maps. And have been studying the combat area a lot before and during their rotation.
There are also areas that aviators are briefed on to avoid and areas that would be safer if they are shot down.
From what i read awhile back I remember reading about a fighter pilot, he said that if theres a specific area in the world... like iran... where tensions are rising they will start to study maps and other things related to the region well before any military conflict ever happens. It's highly likely theres a huge amount of aviators that have been specifically training and studying iran since atleast the 12 day war.
Fit_Muffin_3233@reddit
No shit!
makatakz@reddit
The CSEL beacon only broadcasts in response to a properly encoded interrogation request and only for a moment.
geoshoegaze20@reddit
SERE trained here. Sere doesn't really prepare pilots for the initial ground/search phase all that much. Most pilots become prisoners, so most of the training focuses on surviving captivity. While I was in, we flew with sidearms, basically a way to commit suicide if capture is imminent. There's a good chance the pilot killed himself/herself. I flew in the Straits, and if I was in that situation and capture was imminent I'd probably kill myself. It's the most honorable thing to do, as it prevents Iran from using you as a propaganda piece. I should also note that they just give loose guidance on the evasion phase. There is no briefing or guidelines on what to do once shot down. I had it in my head that as soon as we crashed, I was out of there, ditching my pilots. I didn't trust my pilots enough to be able to cover the ground that I could - i.e. they would slow me down. When shit hits the fan, rank or whatever gets thrown out the window.
nj_5oh@reddit
Suicide? Wtf, that was NEVER the point of being armed with the trusty M9 during combat/combat support missions.
geoshoegaze20@reddit
It's not taught but very much implied. Clearly you missed it.
nj_5oh@reddit
Tell me you were a load or something.
Insequor@reddit
There’s no way this dude went to SERE man, he’s just riffing off of behind enemy lines. If he did he learned all the wrong lessons and should be embarrassed
SpicyPanda23@reddit
Lmao no dude suicide is not taught or implied lol
Are you insane?
Skyremmer102@reddit
The chute video wasn't a rescue parachute
Vac_65@reddit
If the Iranians found at least one of them, everyone will found out in the next second.
AsteroFucker69@reddit
if they don't have him and rescued the other one it means he didn't make it.
MaleficentCoconut594@reddit
One found and rescued, still looking for the others
As for the rest of your question, in the interest of OPSEC, I and no one else should be answering that.
Coorawatha@reddit
Initially I’m not sure you would. I’m not saying they have captured him, but I think you’d probably try and first extract as much information out of him before using him as leverage. As someone else pointed out as well, the longer the US is searching for their solider the better for Iran as it redirects efforts/attention. Add that to the fact that I can see the US just ramping up the attacks with the excuse that their are holding their solider hostage.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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little-green-driod@reddit
I'm sure more info will come out soon enough to learn more.
In the meantime, read about this rescue story from 30 years ago...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_O%27Grady#Shootdown
Kaffe-Mumriken@reddit
https://www.navair.navy.mil/product/combat-survivor-evader-locator-csel-system
I worked on these!!
bobbysteel@reddit
Pax river?
phozze@reddit
The question is also why half the seat is missing?
7Seyo7@reddit
I think the picture is from the back
phozze@reddit
If you compare this to photos of ACES II seats, it looks to me like it's lying on the back with the butt-part of the seat being vertical. The yellow handles are facing the camera, so you should be able to see the back of the seat - only it's missing.
Kardinal@reddit
If you want to know what they are (likely) really using, check this link. h/t to u/strega007 for the breadcrumb.
AN/PRC-112
radios-prc-112g-csar-transceiver-datasheet-english.ashx
Selected quotes. Apparently the set is interrogated by the SAR aircraft and responds only to the correct authenticated signal. Thus triangulation would only be possible when a SAR aircraft is already in range. And presumably, that's when the race starts.
The Radio Set functions as a survival radio/ transponder which receives an interrogation on a predetermined UHF frequency (225.000 to 299.975 MHz in 25 kHz steps), and transmits a response message on the same frequency. The interrogation and response data are of a similar modulation format. Data is transmitted using both amplitude and phase modulation
BadTraditional401@reddit
Read the book Basher 5-2. It's quite interesting.
latedescent@reddit
Scott O Grady, there used to be a great documentary on that whole event.
DeliciousEconAviator@reddit
This seems like an inappropriate place to talk about specifics of survival gear.
airport-codes@reddit
I am a bot.
^(If you are the OP and this comment is inaccurate or unwanted, reply below with "bad bot" and it will be deleted.)