FAA consequences for refusal to submit breath test charge?
Posted by hazylazyandcrazy@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 40 comments
I am currently a student pilot still flying with an instructor. After a very stupid and never to be repeated mistake, I was arrested for DUI, refusal to submit to a breath test, and other various traffic violations. The prosecution agreed to drop all charges, including the DUI, except the refusal, which will trigger a license suspension and therefore must be reported to the FAA.
Will they likely revoke my current class 3 medical and certificate, or should I just expect a deferral in a few years once my medical is due for renewal?
I fly for fun, not trying to make a career out of it at all. I don’t see myself going past PPL and maybe instrument rating.
bae125@reddit
I’ll take HIMS for $500
Seriously, I had a friend do this when he was at a regional. It took almost 3 years to get back, but he’s at a legacy today and doing well. Lot of shit in between
changgerz@reddit
more like HIMS for $15,000
bae125@reddit
Well, yeah, good point!
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Refusal afaik is the equivalent to blowing .15 or whatever threshold they use for dependence or tolerance. Good luck. It's gonna be spendy
outworlder@reddit
I thought that was state dependent? As in, you can refuse a breathalyzer and just submit to chemical testing.
davidswelt@reddit
You can (and should) refuse a field sobriety test without consequences, but not the breathalyzer. I think you confused that.
grumpyoldman10@reddit
I don’t believe this is universally true. If you refuse a breathalyzer, it simply means that they are going to take you in for a blood test.
davidswelt@reddit
There are many jurisdictions all over the world.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Yeah. But the FAA is US federal ;)
outworlder@reddit
Yeah but they take action based on actions local jurisdiction takes.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2024/august/01/no-blow-is-a-no-go-the-implications-of-refusing-a-breathalyzer-for-pilots
A breathalyzer is considered a blood alcohol test. You cannot refuse a BAC test of any kind without being considered dependent by the FAA. You can refuse a field sobriety test. But not a BAC. If the local jurisdiction does a blood test in lieu of a breathalyzer that's fine. But you cannot refuse a breathalyzer in exchange for blood.
outworlder@reddit
Yes. But the breathalyzer that's equivalent to the blood test is the one done at the police station. It's calibrated, temperature controlled, yada yada. It's also done post arrest. You can't refuse that one, regardless of what the FAA says - because, in most jurisdictions, a refusal will suspend your license, which is a reportable event anyway. It's also a criminal offense in 16 states.
Where it gets murky is the preliminary, pre arrest breathalyzer(roadside). In most states you can refuse that one without issue - you'll just waste time as they will arrest you and do the chemical testing at the police station or hospital. There are states that do not allow you to refuse the roadside breathalyzer without committing an infraction.
So, like I commented elsewhere. You refuse the roadside breathalyzer in a state that lets you do that. They arrest you and do the chemical test. You pass. What happens, from a FAA standpoint? There's no reportable event here and there's no DUI, and the initial "refusal" isn't in your record. Even if the FARs don't make a distinction between pre arrest and post arrest breathalyzer, how is the FAA going to enforce this?
Mind you, I don't mean we should test this theory. I'm simply trying to figure out how this works.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
You're conflating what you can do for driving and flying. You absolutely should refuse for driving.
The FAA doesn't care and automatically assumes your .15.
Bottom line... Don't drink and drive. Period.
outworlder@reddit
I hardly ever drink.
The FAA isn't omniscient though. I'm trying to understand how this works, legally and logistically.
grumpyoldman10@reddit
I’m no not an expert at all, but a coworker did this about 10 years ago and I remember him telling me the story. He was a former Elio and it sounds like he was drunk. So he refused the field sobriety test and he refused the breathalyzer and it turns out they didn’t geta subpoena in time to get blood work done. So they didn’t convict him of anything, but they did take away his drivers license for a year.
I’m not even remotely suggesting this is a good idea, just repeating what I’ve heard
outworlder@reddit
Are you talking about the roadside (pre arrest breathalyzer) or the breathalyzer at the station?
davidswelt@reddit
A field sobriety test would be exercises that are difficult for many people, and that just provide "cause". I'd a breathalyzer is used, it doesn't matter where that's located. You should not refuse that. That's my understanding.
I am not a lawyer!
outworlder@reddit
Yeah, I would not want to test that idea with my ass on the line, that's certainly th conservative approach. I'm just trying to understand the regulations better.
I think (also not being a lawyer) that the preliminary breathalyzer is not recorded as a refusal in most states (even though it may be admissible in court if you do decide to take it).
Post arrest, the situation is clear (and even if it wasn't clear, the usual penalty is a suspension, which is reportable, so it wouldn't matter).
I haven't found a proper definition of what constitutes a refusal from the FAA standpoint.
The AOPA says this:
Also:
(https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/medical-resources/health-conditions/substance-abuse/mandatory-reporting-requirements-for-alcohol-related-motor-vehicle-actions)
I have looked at the FAR but I have not found direct source for the claim in bold. Not sure if that's based on the FAA regulations or some case law. The closest I can find is 14 CFR 61.15(e), which deals with motor vehicle actions, and that may be where they are basing their interpretation on; again, not a lawyer.
There is 14 CFR § 61.16 if you are acting as crew member or operating an aircraft, and in that case, you cannot refuse. But here I'm only concerned about motor vehicles.
Now, if a state does have an "implied consent" law, and immediately suspends the license if you refuse the roadside test, then that is reportable, and that's a case where the refused breathalyzer will be an issue.
So the scenario in question is: You got pulled over. Officer wanted to perform a breathalyzer test. You refused(in a state that allows you to do so without immediate adverse actions), got arrested on suspicion of DUI. Then, you provided a sample at the station voluntarily (be it blood or the station breathalyzer). BAC was below the threshold, no adverse actions were taken against the license. Did you "refuse"a test, or not? Since no adverse actions were taken against your license, it doesn't even seem to be reportable.
I could certainly be missing something. Would be nice to hear from a lawyer.
perispomene@reddit
The FAA doesn't care about state law, just the FAR.
outworlder@reddit
I don't think this is that clear cut, because so many regulations are defined based on state laws.
For example, operating a boat while intoxicated, is it a reportable offense? That depends on whether or not the state defines it as a motor vehicle - in the FAAs own words(https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/investigations/airmen_duidwi)
Similarly, driver license suspensions - the suspension happens solely based on state laws. What happens afterwards is governed by the FAR of course.
In this particular case - as the FAR is written - it would seem that any refusal would constitute a violation. But, in states where you can opt to do a chemical test at the police station instead, would it be recorded as a refusal? In other words, it's the pre-arrest roadside breathalyzer I'm talking about (aka preliminary alcohol screening), not the post arrest chemical test - which could indeed involve a breathalyzer at the station(increasingly replaced by a blood sample), which you can't refuse without penalties (which would be reportable).
For states where you don't have the option, refusal will suspend your license anyways, making it a reportable event, and the whole point moot.
perispomene@reddit
You're probably right that if you decide to go to chemical testing at the station and the state allows that option, you won't get suspended and you won't have the same problem.
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
You need a lawyer as each state is gonna have different rules. Where I live, you can 100% refuse a road side breath test. You CANNOT refuse (without penalties) a POST ARREST chemical test (breath, blood, urine).
So its gonna come down to: does your state allow for the refusal of FSTs? A quick free consult with a lawyer will answer this.
Proescutors are dicks and will always want *some* charge if they can get you to agree to it. A DUI as a pilot is a huge hit so I would consult an aviation attorney and not just sign whatever plea deal is preseneted
quackquack54321@reddit
Even if they did drop the refusal, you have to report it. I know a couple folks who had everything dropped after being arrested, and they didn’t report it. Within two years all of their certificates were revoked by the FAA for not reporting the arrest.
ApoTHICCary@reddit
Yup. Not reporting would only dig this hole deeper. Then again knowingly driving under the influence enough to refuse a breathalyzer or blood test already shows very poor judgement, so failing to report is on par.
There is not an Uber ride on the face of the Earth that would cost more than this infraction, and that cost might be the end of a potential flight career. There are so many resources and posts about incidents like this it’s unreal how many still disregard it then complain about the repercussions.
theehmfic@reddit
Bro, that sucks. Feel bad for you but big boy decisions have big boy consequences. If it's worth it to you to fly you'll find a way and if you do, just remember what it took to get back to it and apply those same habits to life
NecessaryLight2815@reddit
HIMS program, and it’s ridiculously expensive, you’ll be seeing psychiatrists, psychologists therapists and a special AME. Random drug tests. All of this out of your own pocket. It SUCkS.
HighRiskInv143@reddit
At this point, hang it up, that refusal will cost you $50k+ just to fight, its not worth it. Dumb decision, huge consequences
Inside-Finish-2128@reddit
Was this the roadside portable breath test (before you were placed under arrest) or the one at the station after you were arrested?
flyingron@reddit
A refusal will be considered an indication that you had a high BAC and hence have developed an alcohol tolerance indicative a substance abuse disorder.
They are going to want you to see a commitment to sobriety. NO ALCOHOL and rpove it. They'll want a pound of flesh and a probable, absolutely ineffective program called AA, but it shows your penitent attitude.
radioref@reddit
Tiger, bro, you should consider giving up operating any motor vehicles and hire a driver and a pilot going forward.
MehCFI@reddit
Realistically pursue other employment
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
MehCFI@reddit
Ah okay, personally I fly cause reading is hard
Virian@reddit
Never refuse a breathalyzer as a pilot.
You’re pretty much screwed.
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
Refusing a breathalyzer or chemical test during a DUI stop is treated by the FAA as a failed test, equivalent to a BAC of 0.15% or higher.
So, basically the worst possible scenario for you. Enjoy jumping through a LOT of hoops, spending a LOT of money, and going to alcoholics anonymous for the rest of your life if you want to hold a medical.
Finding someone to employ you will be an entirely different story.
Every_Rush_8612@reddit
Welcome to HIMS!
rimeice12@reddit
Anthony Ison law firm
TxAggieMike@reddit
First thing is to make sure you comply with §61.15
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I am currently a student pilot still flying with an instructor. After a very stupid and never to be repeated mistake, I was arrested for DUI, refusal to submit to a breath test, and other various traffic violations. The prosecution agreed to drop all charges, including the DUI, except the refusal, which will trigger a license suspension and therefore must be reported to the FAA.
Will they likely revoke my current class 3 medical and certificate, or should I just expect a deferral in a few years once my medical is due for renewal?
I fly for fun, not trying to make a career out of it at all. I don’t see myself going past PPL and maybe instrument rating.
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