What do the Greek people and the Balkan peoples think about Greek-Israeli relations?

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abki12c@reddit

My country benefits from this alliance so there's no reason not to support it

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abki12c@reddit

Greece gets access to high end military equipment cheaper than what the USA offers
There's a plan for a "Great Sea Interconnector" cable to be routed from Israel to Cyprus to Greece, which Turkey sends shis to stop this project which will make Greece and Cyprus energy hubs.
Greece strengthens its role in the Eastern Mediterranean power balance
The enemy of my enemy is my friend

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8elly8utton@reddit

Israel is the enemy of mankind though

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fstbm@reddit

Turkey was an ally of ISIS who rapes and mutilated Muslim children and wonen across the middle east

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Natopor@reddit

You do somewhat inflate some things.

Cooperation with Israel can bring some benefits but its nowhere near close to replace dependence from the USA or Europe. So Israel isn't really game changing, rather an extra bonus.

The energy project you mentioned is still uncertain and facing delays. So not guaranteed benefits, rather "ifs".

As for "the enemy of my enemy", alliances shift every day, especially in the Middle East. Its not a stable strategy for the long time. Nevermind Greece and Turkey are both NATO members and until that chances, I doubt we will see a conflict. nevermind that whichever will start that conflict will get the rest of NATO on them.

So while benefits are, they are rather limited and conditional.

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abki12c@reddit

Israel is game changing because of Turkey and a more reliable ally than some european countries who tried to rip Greece apart in the economic crisis.

These energy projects are always long term and the benefits are reaped years later.

As for the alliances, Israel doesn't seem to change it's stance against Turkey anytime soon.

A conflict between Greece and Turkey is guaranteed when Greece extends its territorial waters to 12 miles which will happen. And i wouldn't trust NATO intervening.

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Pantolonun_Utulusu@reddit

Of course, if Greece extends the territorial waters to 12 nautical miles, you can be sure that Turkey will invade the Greek islands and Cyprus the next day. Israel weapons cannot change this result, but only increase casualties; the military power gap between Turkey and Greece are too high. Therefore I think Greece will never do that, it is just talk.

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fstbm@reddit

Israel has air superiority, and Turkey will no be able to use its full power. With Israeli tech in Greece, Turkey will be in quite a pickle

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Pantolonun_Utulusu@reddit

If we are talking about a full war with Israel forces fighting against Turkey, this could change the outcome.

However, Israel giving weapons to Greece would not change the outcome.

Natopor@reddit

Well now we shifted from facts to personal biases and assumptions.

You can have ties with Israel and they can bring benefits, but its not gonna make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

It's true Europe did push for austerity, but it was also Europe also provided bailout funding and kept Greece in the Eurozone. Mind you, Israel has no obligation to help Greece, be it economicaly or military.

Yes, energy infrastructure does take long. But the reality is that some of the projects may never be completed, or have become to economicaly demanding or be overtaken by new energy options.

Israel and Turkey have had a very changing relationship. They broke down, then they fixed it, then they broke down again. Relationships in the Middle ast change far easier. Thats the reality

A conflict between Greece and Turkey is guaranteed when Greece extends its territorial waters to 12 miles which will happen. And i wouldn't trust NATO intervening.

So bascially your saying "A war with Turkey is guaranteed for we shall start it".

As for NATO, again, your argument is distrust, now actual fact. Its true NATO isnt always the best at solving confict between members, but saying conflict with Turkey is guaranteed ignores decades of crises where both sides stopped short of war precisely because of NATO and international pressure. If it really was that guaranteed, you two would have been at war long ago. There have been lots of crisise which didn't turn to war. Who do you think stopped these potential wars so far? it wasn't Israel, I'll tell you that much.

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kulamsharloot@reddit

Cooperation with Israel can bring some benefits but its nowhere near close to replace dependence from the USA or Europe. So Israel isn't really game changing, rather an extra bonus.

The Mossad itself is game changing, just to fill you in lol.

As for "the enemy of my enemy", alliances shift every day, especially in the Middle East. Its not a stable strategy for the long time. Nevermind Greece and Turkey are both NATO members and until that chances, I doubt we will see a conflict. nevermind that whichever will start that conflict will get the rest of NATO on them.

As long as Erdogan is ruling Turkey (or any Islamic ruler who's anti Israel) there won't be "alliance shift", regardless, no reason in the world for dropping alliances with Greece, at worst Israel will be allied with both but never trust Turkey and it's Muslim majority.

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Natopor@reddit

Calling Mossad game changing is a onverstatement, even if they are competent. Intelligence sharing is always selective, not unlimited. Israel is more focused about its own. Greece mostly cooperates with NATO.

And seems you are ignoring what Erdogan has did. Under his rule (very long) relations with Israel have fallen, normalized, fallen again. Even now the two are somewhat ok with one another.

Israel also has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, muslims countries. Even Israel and Turkey had massive military cooperation in the 90s and early 2000s. So the muslim majority argument falls as well.

More broadly, Israel acts based on its own strategic interests, not as a guarantor for other countries. That’s why it’s more realistic to see this relationship as useful but limited, rather than decisive. So how some greeks in here belive Israel is gonna fight for Greece no matter what is quite interesting.

I would advise you you drop the absolutes and stop mixing geopolitics with religion and identity.

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kulamsharloot@reddit

Mossad is game changing, like it or not.

Each country is focused on it's own, do you think heads of states are striking deals based on good will?

Both Israel and Greece have interests on each other, each for its own reasons.

Do you think the peace treaty with Jordan and Egypt doesn't include spying on each other? Being wary of one another?

Israel will certainly help Greece vs Turkey, I doubt it'll be actual fighting, but tech, Intel etc, for sure.

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Natopor@reddit

There is a fine line between very competent and gamechaning. Unless they got secret Ray Guns to give to you, not much gamechanging. Just because you repeat the same thing twice doesnt make it true. it only forces me to repeat it again. Mossad is valuable but not decisive.

Your point about spying on Egypt and Jordan is not much of a gotcha. Its a non point. It doesnt prove permanent hostility or fixed alliance. You just reinforced my point about fluid relations. And while at it, by this logic Israel may also be spying Greece. So is Greece also a secret enemy? Is Mossad in greece? Are you a Mossad agent whos upset at me?

The big flaw here is that you claim Israel certainly will help Greece against Turkey. First of all, that would only happen if a war between Greece and Turkey breaks out. That is higly unlikely to happen due to NATO. Why? because if there was no NATO, you and Turkey would right now fight the third Greek-Turkish war by now.

Its funny because you also made a claim countries watching their own interests first. Yet Israel also watches the interests of Greece? You are assuming a level of commitment from Israel that no country displays, and one you yourself argued against in another point.

Tech, Intel? Its not that game changing, sorry to break it to you. If Israel did join militarly, that could make a difference, but anyting less than that would still have Greece in a bad position and in a risk of loosing. Israel will propitize first and foremost its own interests in the Middle East, alongside geopolitics and other relations, even with Turkey.

So as I told another greek guy who seem to see Israel and Mossad as gods, I would advise to drop the absolutes and certainly.

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kulamsharloot@reddit

Did you hear about the beeper operation?

It was a game changer.

Did you hear about the red wedding operation?

I can go on.

It feels like you're underestimating both Israel and the Mossad, it's not a smart thing to do.

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Natopor@reddit

So now we are arguing about cool tactical examples instead of geopolitics?

Successful operations don’t automatically translate into being game changing for another country’s overall position. It shows competence but not the ability to turn the tide in a Greek_Turkish War (assuming they would even want to do that).

There’s a difference between being effective in specific operations and being decisive at a geopolitical level. Greece for now is mainly shaped by NATO and Europe, alongside it's own capabilities.

I'm not underestimating. I'm just keeping things realistic. You are the one who sounds like he's debating which superhero is better and why. By that logic, I could point to historical tactical successes, like Stefan the Great at Vaslui in 1475, hence allying with Romania against Turkey now. That does not define moden geopolitics.

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BroSchrednei@reddit

The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Wtf does that mean? Who is your "enemy"?

so let me get this straight, the only reason youre not starting a war of aggression against Turkey is because they have a bigger army?

Jesus Christ, if I knew how deranged Greeks were, I would've had much less sympathy for your economic situation. You people are bloodthirsty psychopaths and need to be stopped.

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Greekdorifuto@reddit

What?

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No that’s not true.

We live in a world where power is abused at all levels, powerful countries always tend to force smaller countries to do their bit.

Greece is a great example of how a corrupt sell out government has zero foreign politics and will always do what they are told.

I won’t pretend to live in an equal world where every country has its say and we all get along

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xzgbnma@reddit

No that’s not true.

So you don't think most countries don't put their own interests above those of other countries?

We live in a world where power is abused at all levels, powerful countries always tend to force smaller countries to do their bit.

I said most, and that applies to what I said at the beginning: countries will put their own interests above other countries.

Greece is a great example of how a corrupt sell out government has zero foreign politics and will always do what they are told.

Trump, for example, also told European countries to participate in the war. Greece did not participate and US is more powerful.

I won’t pretend to live in an equal world where every country has its say and we all get along

Nobody told you to pretend to live in an equal world, and how did you get that idea from what I said? If I tell you, "country prioritize the interests of objects over other country, that's not called equality."

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Greekdorifuto@reddit

Its not an alliance , its a partnership

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What a load of bullshit.

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AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit

Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.

You have the same boomer mentality that our boomer right wingers have.

You deserve each other, if only we could put you all in the same place and out of our countries, both counties would be much better.

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The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit

Classy reply and you couldn't be more right.

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The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit

We do support it, it is death penalty for Palestinians who went on killing sprees and survived. Did you ever bothered reading what is the law?

You probably read on your media that we are going to execute 10 thousand people.

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The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit

Seems like every government is the same

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Lothronion@reddit

You greeks really think taht israel is an ally or it is going to help you if a crisis happens against Turkiye?

There is no reason to think that; there is no bilateral defense treaty between Greece and Israel. And thank goodness, Greece does not need to send military forces to fight in Israel's wars, in the Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Syria, and its air forces to fly over Iraq and Iran.

You could be friendly with Turkiye but you don't want to be because you are the ones who want to take advantage in Aegean and claim Western Turkiye.

Just like how a sheep can be friendly with a wolf. Speaking of friendliness is completely disingenuous, given Turkey's maintenance of the illegal occupation of Cyprus, its stationing of the Aegean Army in Smyrna, trained to make landings on islands, given its elected casus belli if Greece exercises her legal rights in accordance to UNCLOS (which do not require a third party's consent), given how the Turkish President constantly threatens Greece with bombing and war since 2022, and given how in 2022 there were around ten thousand illegal military overflights in the Athenian FIR.

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The Turks are already buying properties via Bulgarian companies in Evros and the islands

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sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit

Well the difference is, Turke don't claim the lands they buy. Are you capable of recognizing that?

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mrgleman@reddit

They don’t claim the land they buy , but they buy in the parts they claim ;)

Thrace(possible the worst region of Greece to live by FAR, so bad that even government plan of giving 10,000€ to people who settle there failed miserably ) and aegian aren’t some random choices

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Pastourmakis@reddit

Only the lands they invade

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abki12c@reddit

No

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sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit

No surprises here

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EmreTaptukYunus@reddit

This is not because of a political agenda, but rather due to the fact that the real estate market in Turkey has been severely affected by Arab capital. At the moment, buying a house in the United States appears more profitable than buying one in Turkey.

Of course, there is also the issue that obtaining an EU visa has become more difficult after the refugee crisis. I am quite certain that the primary goal of those trying to buy property is to obtain an EU passport.

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BiAiEnGiO@reddit

Dont let them get to you man. You know your truth.

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FantasticQuartet@reddit

Get to me? I couldn't care less about an echo chamber Reddit sub. Varoufakis got 2.4% and a ticket outside the parliament in the real world.

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hunichii@reddit

So how does that disprove his points?

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BeeUnfair4086@reddit

He is also wrong about that he isn't facing any consequences. He has been threatened by the greek establishment for his life and his character is getting assassinated non stop on tv by the fascist government.

Less than 3 years ago he got beaten badly by some group of guys in the street, for the things he said and yet Varoufakis still keeps going. This man is really someone to look up.

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BroSchrednei@reddit

It doesnt, hes just a right-winger who gets angry when he hears the name Varoufakis.

Varoufakis was talking about a status of forces agreement btw:

Status of forces agreements are pretty heavily criticised in other countries like Germany and Japan, since they protect the US military and its personnel against local law enforcement. Theres lots of cases where a US soldier commits some crime, but gets away with it essentially because of the status of forces accord. And Greece now has one with Israel since 2015:

-who_am-i_@reddit

You are a brainwashed fool for thinking that. They threw all the mud on him that they could find and idiots like you believed the propaganda. Varoufakis is the only politician staying true to his beliefs. You have no single argument against him because he is right in everything he says and the only thing you have to say is "mimimi he is a narcissist for showing us his house"

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BroSchrednei@reddit

Nope, youre just stupidly wrong.

The 2015 agreement was much more than just "joint military exercises" it was a status of forces agreement, which does give the Israeli military legal rights to station its military in Greece without being hindered by greek administrative law. The only other country that has a status of forces agreement with Israel is the US.

Status of forces agreements are pretty heavily criticised in other countries like Germany and Japan, since they protect the US military and its personnel against local law enforcement. Theres lots of cases where a US soldier commits some crime, but gets away with it essentially because of the status of forces accord.

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/greeces-syriza-military/

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New_Parking9991@reddit

SOFA agreement does not give Israel right to station military without Greece's persmission nor does it give right to use greek airspace as they see fit.

Also your link is an opinion piece so keep that in mind. Comparing to US is kinda misleading as Israel does not have forces or bases in greek territory.

This agreement does not give Israeli any rights to do anything in Greece and is only in the context when invited for military training and joint excercises.

Since you say its not about joint military excercises on what else would it apply, i am all ears, since Israel got no troops in Greece.

No.. he made the claim that Israel can, from its own volition use greeces air space without greeces consent. That’s the claim - prove him wrong. Go ahead I am waiting.

This is the commenti responded, how does your reply prove me wrong.

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kulamsharloot@reddit

Tbh I don't even see the point of Israel using Greek airspace if not for joint military exercises.

I mean, all the enemies aren't even close to Greece (unless you consider Turkey an enemy), what benefit does Israel get from it?

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BroSchrednei@reddit

SOFA agreement does not give Israel right to station military without Greece's persmission nor does it give right to use greek airspace as they see fit.

It doesnt automatically give Israel the right to built a military station on greek soil, but it absolutely gives Israeli military the right to use greek soil and airspace and gives its military legal protection for it.

Comparing to US is kinda misleading as Israel does not have forces or bases in greek territory.

Thats your opinion. It makes total sense to compare it with the US, since it's only Greece and the US that have a status of forces agreement with Israel.

This agreement does not give Israeli any rights to do anything in Greece and is only in the context when invited for military training and joint excercises.

That is just factually wrong. You do not seem to understand what a status of forces agreement is. Israel DOES have the right to move its troops to Greece and doesnt have to be specifically invited anymore. And when it does, Israeli soldiers aren't beholden to greek law. Thats the entire point of a status of forces agreement.

Which is also why it's so often criticised in the context of the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_forces_agreement

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New_Parking9991@reddit

ok i cannot view your history so not sure if troll or not.

First your link from wiki does not back you up at all. Now

It doesnt automatically give Israel the right to built a military station on greek soil, but it absolutely gives Israeli military the right to use greek soil and airspace and gives its military legal protection for it.

It does not,Israeli cannot use greek soil or airspace uninvited. The agreement with Greece and Israel has to with common excercises and joint training, SOFA applies for troops that are already in the country and its not about giving up sovereignty and free use of greek soil.

It is misleading to compare to US as greece for example hosts already US bases but we do not host bases or host Israeli military personel other when excercises or common training.

The agreement between Israel and Greece was about this, and this is where the SOFA terms apply, for invited military personel.

Did you read your wikipedia link btw?

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kulamsharloot@reddit

Prove you don't have 50 sisters then. Refute what I said, go on, I'm waiting.

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geoken@reddit

So you’re saying he is by default correct, and someone else must prove a negative to convince you against a claim he made with no evidence?

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BroSchrednei@reddit

I mean Varoufakis cant defend himself in the comments, so the burden of proof is on the commenter here who said Varoufakis is false. If he is, then prove it.

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FantasticQuartet@reddit

How convenient. So I can go record a video of myself saying "Turkey secretly sold dogs for consumption to Chinese markets". If someone else posts this on the internet, and you say that this isn't true, the burden of proof isn't on me who made the claim but on you to prove why it is false.

But I'll humour you. Yanis said this is part of a deal that happened in 2015 between Greece and Israel. Here is an article with a very clear bias against Israel, so it should point out the claim that Israel can "unilaterally send military aircraft without asking or consulting Greece". Except, it doesn't say this anywhere at all. It does however say that the two countries have a Status of Forces agreement. So what is this? Let's check wikipedia.

We can see that the US has this kind of deal with most European countries. But just this week we saw countries like Spain, Italy and others denying the passage/landing of US military aircraft. So does Israel has a separate deal with the Greek government? Maybe a special clause that grants them this incredible privilege? I can't even find a single source beyond Varoufakis saying that. Varoufakis who wasn't even part of the Greek government when the deal was struck, as he himself says he has already retired.

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BroSchrednei@reddit

Buddy, I already posted all of this information three hours ago:

The 2015 agreement was much more than just "joint military exercises" it was a status of forces agreement, which does give the Israeli military legal rights to station its military in Greece without being hindered by greek administrative law. The only other country that has a status of forces agreement with Israel is the US.

Status of forces agreements are pretty heavily criticised in other countries like Germany and Japan, since they protect the US military and its personnel against local law enforcement. Theres lots of cases where a US soldier commits some crime, but gets away with it essentially because of the status of forces accord.

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/greeces-syriza-military/

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robby_arctor@reddit

No, the other user said Yanis doesn't know what he's talking about and they're asking them to explain why they think that.

It's perfectly reasonable, either explain your position or stop deflecting by arguing about how to argue.

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FantasticQuartet@reddit

The burden of proof falls to you as a supporter of Varoufakis. He's the one that made this outlandish claim.

The fact that so many people here even believe this, is troubling.

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BroSchrednei@reddit

Wrong.

The 2015 agreement was much more than just "joint military exercises" it was a status of forces agreement, which does give the Israeli military legal rights to station its military in Greece without being hindered by greek administrative law. The only other country that has a status of forces agreement with Israel is the US.

Status of forces agreements are pretty heavily criticised in other countries like Germany and Japan, since they protect the US military and its personnel against local law enforcement. Theres lots of cases where a US soldier commits some crime, but gets away with it essentially because of the status of forces accord.

starxidiamou@reddit

He speaks the truth for Greece, too. Your emotions are just getting in the way of reason.

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abki12c@reddit

He speaks the truth for 2% of the voters in Greece

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Zeflonex@reddit

Present me one thing that he said in this video that’s false

Use proper argumentation to support your thesis

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abki12c@reddit

As one other comment said:

"the 2015 agreement was about joint military excersises. Excercises Israel would be invited by Greece.

It did not say from now on and forever Israel can use greek airspace freely and as they choose and Greece is a colony of Israel as varoufakis says."

Now prove me with proper argumentation that what Varoufakis said is true

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-who_am-i_@reddit

The right wing idiots believe the propaganda and the smear campaign against varoufakis. They have no arguments, i have never read a single argument against his points

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Zeflonex@reddit

I believe that Varoufakis has made mistakes

Every single politician has, it’s expected

But you need to be seriously brainwashed to hate a person who wants everyone to have a good standard of living and wants to stop big companies from fucking us over

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-who_am-i_@reddit

Sure he has made mistakes, but they weren't even close to what mistakes others did

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urhiteshub@reddit

That's not how truth works.

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DryDatabase169@reddit

There is no absolute truth... Plato's cave? :)

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-who_am-i_@reddit

You are a brainwashed fool for thinking that. They threw all the mud on him that they could find and idiots like you believed the propaganda. Varoufakis is the only politician staying true to his beliefs. You have no single argument against him because he is right in everything he says and the only thing you have to say is "mimimi he is a narcissist for showing us his house"

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Apart-Temperature329@reddit

You think that people do really read bloody Hurriyet, besides some dying breed of centre-right-wing moguls kin to Nea Dimokratia mirror images?

He said it was wrong that Greece helped Cyprus

Eh, no. He said, Greece practically was helping to keep the British bases secure rather than Cyprus itself. It is right, by the way, as Cyprus wasn't the target but the target and the problem were the British colonial bases, and there'd be no imminent threats without their presence.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

the bases are not in a desert, they are in inhabited area and integrated.

Sending ships (we were not the only ones that did even Spain did) was for Cyprus and Cypriots.

If that is the case since Varoufakis talked to turkish newspaper he should be saying Spaniards are slaves of Israelis since they use patriot unit to help Turkey down missiles from Iran.

See how braindead this sounds.

Also the deal in 2015 anyone can read about it, there is nothing colonial about it and it did not give israel to use greek airspace as they please. So he is an established liar!

People in Greece know him as not the one that stoop up agaist Troika,but as the one that failed to negotiate and cost the country.

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Apart-Temperature329@reddit

the bases are not in a desert, they are in inhabited area and integrated.

You don't say? /s Then, again, why these areas are targeted in the first place?

Sending ships (we were not the only ones that did even Spain did) was for Cyprus and Cypriots.

Yes, yet, they were there since the British colonial bases, and ultimately, it was for their defence as well in the objective sense as they are the ones that are targeted. Look, I myself is grateful for those ships, but come on now, we both know why such imminent threat was a thing in the first place.

If that is the case since Varoufakis talked to turkish newspaper

Mate, your point was about 'oh you like him since his article in this specific newspaper', although, again, nobody even remembers that, let alone the said newspaper itself being totally out of fashion by now.

People in Greece know him as not the one that stoop up agaist Troika,but as the one that failed to negotiate and cost the country.

Eh, it'd blame Tsipras for that. He had left the office since the day Syriza decided to cave in.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

these bases were targeted despite UK would let US use them so what is your argument here.

So we supposed to let Cyprus indefensible and if a drone or missile hit and kill cypriots outside base area just worry later?

So spain is both in Cyprus and in Turkey. I guess spain is a colony of Israel since they protect US bases in so many places.

Eh, it'd blame Tsipras for that. He had left the office since the day Syriza decided to cave in.

Tsipras was elected with the redline staying in Euro, if Varoufakis as economy minister was not able to negotiate a better deal than the one we already had,and got worse results its on him.

Btw he openly lies in the video about the military agreement about joint excercises. So leaving aside other statement just this video alone,establishes him as a liar.

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Apart-Temperature329@reddit

these bases were targeted before UK would let US use them so what is your argument here.

The said bases had been in use for the sake of US and Israel, even though they weren't utilised for striking to Iran directly. They're crucial in gathering data and they've been used for other purposes including the US planes using hangars.

So we supposed to let Cyprus indefensible and if a drone or missile hit and kill cypriots outside base area just worry later?

No, but those bases shouldn't be a thing in the first place anyway. If anything, decolonisation of those should be pushed instead. Now, again, of course I have nothing against the EU countries coming in help of Cyprus, and I'm grateful for them as well - yet, objectively, they're just there to eliminate the threats solely due to the British colonial bases, and towards those colonial base areas.

Tsipras was elected with the redline staying in Euro, if Varoufakis as economy minister was not able to negotiate a better deal than the one we already had,and got worse results its on him.

You cannot negotiate a better deal, when your all game and even the result of the referendum had been scrapped off, and your own fellow ministers and your own prime minister backstabs you? I'm not gonna claim that I can read into alternative scenarios and can tell about the outcome, but it wasn't Varoufakis who caved in - which was surely going to result in a worse deal, even just to make an example out of Greece.

Btw he openly lies in the video about the military agreement about joint excercises.

I genuinely cannot comment on that, as that's not smth I'm even tangentially versed on.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

No, but those bases shouldn't be a thing in the first place anyway

Cypriot goverment has tried in the past and even now to negotiate them out. There is a big elephant in the room called Turkey and their occupying forces. British giving up their sovereignty can open a can of worms and create big problems at least if no reunification.

Now till that happens we supposed to leave Cypriots undefended?

You cannot negotiate a better deal,

But you could get a worse one, and they did,thats the whole point, They rose to power because ''we will get better deal and stay in the euro'' they lied and got worse deal.

Varoufakis accepted the job on these premises and failed as finance minister.

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Apart-Temperature329@reddit

British giving up their sovereignty can open a can of worms and create big problems at least if no reunification.

No, not really? Turkey is more than fine with those bases, as they also legitimises their stay and them asking for a stay even after the reunification.

Now till that happens we supposed to leave Cypriots undefended?

No, but again, it doesn't change the fact that, Cyprus is under imminent threat only since the British colonial bases, and objectively, the defence is about defending those base areas. Now, again, it's not a bad thing as those areas are full of Cypriots as well, rather than the sole British military build-up, but still.

But you could get a worse one

Indeed, and it was bound to happen if they pushed the EU core for a better deal and caved in. Yet, it was Tsipras and the rest of Syriza, while Varoufakis got backstabbed. His capabilities as a finance minister and a negotiator may be debatable but he wasn't even able to do what he was supposed to do, but his own prime minister worked behind his back.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

there was no caving in, it was either the deal or grexit, and noone voted them for grexit.

No, not really? Turkey is more than fine with those bases, as they also legitimises their stay and them asking for a stay even after the reunification.

If the bases are gone, it means the status quo is no more it might give Turkey legal argument for the occupied north. Its not a simple British give back the bases to Cyprus and we go on about our day, this is what i mean.

but his own prime minister worked behind his back.

So the finance minister did not know the goverment he joined was voted with redline we stay in the euro?

Come on now, we have statement and records about what happened and how capable negotiator he was.

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P-l-Staker@reddit

and he wants to abolish military service.

I mean...

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abki12c@reddit

If you mean that he's right then you are completely wrong

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Royal-Professor-4283@reddit

A few other favorite sayings from Turkey: "genociding the Greeks and Armenians is so fun!", "The Kurds are next!" and of course "Also the jews!"

Oh Turkey, even in 100 years Israel won't manage to match your degeneracy!

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Independent-Bee-2890@reddit

New_Parking9991@reddit

but the Greek economy was in the toilet long before he took on the role and remained in the toilet after he left.

His goverment, the Tsipras one won elections as a party that would keep Greece in Eurozone(that was a redline). Varoufakis was supposed to negotiate better terms for the bail out and memoranda compared to previous goverments.

Instead he failed to do so completely,and as it turned out according to his own beliefs he would be willing to gladly exit Euro something he was not voted for . He ended negotiating worse terms and plunging the country into a worse crisis with capital controls. I know poeple that took their own lives as a result.

So your comment is just naive and ignorant at best. Our country was setback years behind because of Tsipras goverment. Europeans called his varoufaki's bluff and he failed, hurting the country.

I understand in Reddit opinions like varoufakis's is popular exit euro exit nato,there are no illegal imigrants, stop paying debt, Greece is Israel's puppet. But reality dont work that way.

Varoufakis was a terrible politician and his failures as economy minister hurt the country at an important time for our country.

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Overarching_Chaos@reddit

Τα capital controls επιβληθηκαν γτ σου πάγωσαν τη ρευστότητα από την ΕΚΤ, αλλά αυτό βολικά δεν το αναφέρετε.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

γιατι το εκαναν,ισως μπορουσαμε να το αποφυγουμε?

Μηπως η Κυβερνηση που βγηκε τοτε, και ειχει υποσχεθει οτι θα εκανε καλυτερη διαπραγματευση......επρεπε να κανει καλυτερη διαπραγματευση?

δεν τους ψηφισαμε ρε φιλε για να βγουμε απο το ευρω ομως.

Οι τυποι κανανε οτι τους ειπε η Τρωικα και με το παραπανω οταν ο κομπος εφτασε στο χτενι, οποτε τι νοημα ειχε η διαπραγματευση που εκαναν?

Στην ζωη παιζεις με το φυλλο που σου μοιρασαν, αν ειχαν κανει καλυτερη δουλεια και δεν το επαιζαν ψευτομαγκες ισως να ειμασταν καλυτερα τωρα, και πιστεψε με ΝΔ δεν θα ειχε βγει.

Τι θελεις να πω οτι πετυχανε ενω τα κανανε σκατα?

Μαζι σου οτι κουλης και πασοκο παρεα επρεπε να ειναι φυλακη, αλλα οχι μονο δεν ειναι ειναι τοπ 2 κομματα. Αν νομιζεις για αυτο δεν φταιει συριζα και πως τα σκατωσανε τοτε τι να πω.

Θελουμε καποιον ηγετη να πιστεψουμε και να συσπειρωθουμε σαν λαος οπως εγινε με Τσιπρα τοτε, αλλα οχι ατομα Βαρουφακη με μλκιες και αποικια των Εβραιων η Ελλαδα και πρασινα αλογα.

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Overarching_Chaos@reddit

Τους ψηφίσαμε για να πάνε κόντρα στην Τρόικα. Όταν είσαι ξεβρακωτος στο 3ο μνημόνιο γτ έχεις βγάλει λάδι τις γαλλογερμανικές τράπεζες από το 1ο, με τι ακριβώς θα διαπραγματευτεις? Το μόνο που είχε μείνει ήταν να απειλήσουν με Grexit.

Τη μπλόφα με το Grexit την έκαναν όταν κατάλαβαν ότι η τρόικα δεν είναι διατεθειμένη να διαπραγματευτεί αλλά να επιβάλλει όρους. Δε σχολιάζω το αν ήταν σωστό ή λάθος, αλλά ο κόσμος δεν είχε πάρει πρέφα τι ζητούσε ουσιαστικά μέχρι να κλείσουν οι τράπεζες... Εάν ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είχε κάνει πίσω πιο νωρίς θα φαινόταν σαν συνθηκολόγηση και η κυβέρνηση θα έπεφτε και μπορει να έβγαινε καμία χρυσή αυγή που τότε επαιζε 3ο κόμμα, γτ υπήρχε πολύ έντονο αντιμνημόνιο αίσθημα (62%).

Δεν είπα πουθενά ότι δε φταίει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ή ότι δεν τα έκαναν πουτανα. Όλο το συστημικό πολιτικο τόξο είχε πάρει πρέφα τι σήμαινε ουσιαστικά η διαπραγμάτευση.

Μετά την υπογραφή του πρώτου μνημονίου δεν υπήρχε κανένα περιθώριο διαπραγμάτευσης χωρίς σοβαρές συνέπειες (έξοδος από ευρώ κλπ), αυτό λέω. Πριν, το ευρωπαϊκό χρηματοπιστωτικό σύστημα ήταν εκτεθειμένο στο ελληνικό χρέος και μπορούσες να διαπραγματευτείς. Μετά εξαγοράστηκε το χρέος από την Τρόικα και την έβγαλαν λάδι οι τράπεζες οπότε έμεινες με το πουλί στο χέρι.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

δεν συμφωνω οτι δεν μπορουσαν να περασουν το μηνμονιο.

Again, you're doing the exact same error you did in your previous comment. You're trying to make it sound like he was outstandingly bad and someone else could've done a better job. That's just not the case.

I am telling the truth as someone that lived through the crisis, so i know what is like to feel hungry waiting in line in ATM and worrying what will happen.

Varoufakis was supposed to negotiate instead he tried to bluff(according to him he was willing to go through it and enter drachma,something he and his goverment were not voted for) he failed miserably and because of his tactics we got worse terms on the memorandums(this is a fact,not a personal opinion) we entered capital controls(which we wouldnt if not for the tsipras goverment) and it took us back quite a few years.

. People further on the left wanted the government to literally expropriate goods from the people to pay for its debt, his right-wing counterpart suggested some horse shit ideas like selling off islands, while some in the AnCap extremes wanted the government to straight up default.

This is simply false and not true at all. The deal Tsipras goverment signed was a worse version of what was established before the negotiation. And then the goverment went on and applied the agreement 110%.

Your comment is misleading,not true ,you are either doing it on purpose or you are simply ignorant.

Varoufakis took a bad situation and made it even worse, this is what happened and my comment communicates.

This is well established and easy to see.

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Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit

“Feel hungry waiting in the ATM line”.

You could use credit card to buy things with no credit limit imposed OR interbank transactions, again no credit limit OR you could withraw €420 PER WEEK in cash which at that point was more than half the salary of a minimum wage worker and the majority of Greeks

So you are talking bullshit.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

small bussinesses that were mostly affected ended up delaying salaries or paying in installments(not sure for english word). Alot of locals other than supermarket etc.. still accepted mostly cash.

The lines in atms were huge especially the first few weeks when banks were closed.

I lived through the crisis in thessaloniki at that time the only job i could find was in a (βιοτεχνια ρουχων στην καλαμαρια?) not sure the english word,the dude that owned the place ended up closing later on and most of us were left without being paid in full.

I can remember clearly how it feels waiting in line for hours to get money to get by knowing you will have to skip meal.

This was a reality during the greek crisis.

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Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit

So you were lying. Waiting in line for cash was your choice and skipping the meal was the consequence of this choice. You could use the debit card the bank gives (as I did and so many others) but you decided to go and wait like a muppet.

The dude didn’t pay you because he didn’t give a fuck about you. Not because of capital controls.

The situation was bleak because of the economy but bullshiting is not it.

The lines were because of panic. Not because you couldn’t live with €420 weekly limit.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

Waiting in line for cash was your choice and skipping the meal was the consequence of this choice.

I had to wait in line because i needed cash for everyday life,not everyone accepted credit card.

Skipping meal was because the place i worked at the time did not pay in time or paid in installments. The unemployment at the time was very high so it was not easy to say no and find other place work.

The dude didn’t pay you because he didn’t give a fuck about you. Not because of capital controls.

Alot of small bussinesses were affected by capital controls. And they were another shock in an economy that was already struggling.

but bullshiting is not it.

The one that is bullshitting is you at this point dont you think.

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Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit

Again you lie.

None, and I mean none, in my family and people I know, including me, had to rush for cash. We used cards for supermarkets and clothes. That’s a fact. So you needed cash for everyday life is a pure lie.

Business who refused to accept cards because they didn’t want to declare all the income were fucked. Any other business who changed to card survived the capital.

How many business closures you think Greece had 2015-19 and how many 2020-25. Take a wild guess.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

So you needed cash for everyday life is a pure lie. Even rent I paid via bank transfer.

Doctors,plumbers,car mechanics and many more. Even rent some did not accept payment through bank. This was pretty common.

How many business closures you think Greece had 2015-19 and how many 2020-25. Take a wild guess.

I dont need to take a wild guess because it means nothing, you trying to compare shows you are simply bullshitting.

Now go look unemployment numbers,ask people outside of your circle the condition of local bussineses how people were paid at the time and more.

The fact that you used above the argument of it being a choice,when you had sky rocket unemployment says alot.

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Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit

“I dont want to guess business closures because I will look like a fucking clown”. That’s the correct response.

Unemployment, interesting that you asked. Let’s see:

2012: 24.7

2013: 27.7

2014: 26.7

CAPITAL CONTROLS

2015: 25

2016: 23.5

2017: 21.4

2018: 19.2

2019: 17

END OF CAPITAL CONTROLS

2020: 15.9

2021: 14.7

2022: 12.4

2023: 11

2024: 10

2025: 8.5

Fall in unemployment with capital controls: 8% difference.

Fall in unemployment without capital controls: 7.5% difference

So, according to your one brain cell, because unemployment was falling during 2015–19 the same rate as of now; we were good back then and capital controls helped us employee more people. Brilliant.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

I have no problem to be offensive especially when someone argues in bad faith. I guess alot live in a bubble and its hard to see out of it. I stand by my reply, one that you do not really adress.

Now go look unemployment numbers,ask people outside of your circle the condition of local bussineses how people were paid at the time and more.

2015 : 25% , 2025 8.5%

You are almost getting there.

Now try google about how you would get paid, and what ''choice'' you had.

Then following that, tell me what consequences capital controls had for our economy and if they helped or not.

I only have one braincell, i am a muppet since you are not any of these things please let me know.

Also just one quote from your comment to make it clear :

Waiting in line for cash was your choice and skipping the meal was the consequence of this choice. You could use the debit card the bank gives (as I did and so many others) but you decided to go and wait like a muppet.

If you are arguing in bad faith just say so, it is clear from my very first comment that i did not skip meal because i waited all day to draw from ATM, if you read my commments and got this, then that is wild (i am not sure what words i can use and if i will get banned) its pretty obvious the reason i skipped meal is because the money were not enough and the reason i worked for said place is because i had no other ''choice''. And this is something that alot of people had to go through.

I know it might be hard for you,because you and your circle got all the braincells in Greece. But for some of us stupid people that could not choose well paying job or doctor that took credit card or landlord that was legit etc....capital controls was an uneccesary hit that made a bad situation worse.

I now understand re-reading the comment how ridiculous your opinion and the reading of my coments is.

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Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit

You said:

“Feel hungry waiting in the ATM line”

It clearly implies you had no money to eat because of the capital controls. I asked you why you didn’t buy with a debit card.

Then you changed it to

“Waiting in line so you have to skip a meal”

So you were hungry because you decided to rush the first week to withdraw money. That’s a choice.

Which you finally said

“Well, my boss wasn’t paying me on time so i was hungry.”

Get your story straight.

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New_Parking9991@reddit

It clearly implies you had no money to eat because of the capital controls. I asked you why you didn’t buy with a debit card.

It clearly means being hungry in ATM line.

“Waiting in line so you have to skip a meal”

no I literally explained what i meant :

I had to wait in line because i needed cash for everyday life,not everyone accepted credit card.

Skipping meal was because the place i worked at the time did not pay in time or paid in installments. The unemployment at the time was very high so it was not easy to say no and find other place work.

None of the above were my choices btw. I described how the crisis once capital controls were in effect found me. My experience.

My comment and story is clear,also after my second comment to you should have been obvious.

So you were hungry because you decided to rush the first week to withdraw money. That’s a choice.

You are arguing in bad faith,and for someone that accuses others of having one braincell you seem to be missing some. No offence but you started being offensive.

What i mean is clear, and obviously i would have to be crazy to stay hungry because i waited too long on ATM line.

You also accused me of lie and many other things reading through the replies again make no sense.

English not my first language but after my second quote it should be more than obvious,it does not justify some words you used,so take your braincell and shove it up your credit card paying arse.

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Temporary-Check-1507@reddit

You're trying to make it sound like he was outstandingly bad and someone else could've done a better job.

The first mnemonium (bail) came in 2010 under the administration of George Papandreou. It involved a 110€ euro loan from the Eu with various bad terms

The second was under a provisional government and it had even worse terms

But all these terms were mostly aimed at citizens not businesses

The third one was under Varoufakis and gave us Capital controls. This mostly bunkrupted several businesses. I just want to clarify that after 5 years there was progress being made and then a shotgun to the face was presented by Schauble and Merke because of his incompetence.

The first 2 bails started working and then this madman thought "giving money" again to anyone and everyone would fly with the germans

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-MrAnderson@reddit

No he isn't; Greece had - and still has - the same structural issues, yes; but he was outstandingly bad.

There are catastrophic events that happened on top of our ordinary overspending, corruption-filled, overblown central government that are a director consequence of his policies.

We had capital controls only because of his "negotiations" shenanigans
Overnight hundreds of millions of euros left the country in fear of bankruptcy
Greece went on to receive a third loan package; it wasn't going to but thanks for Yannis
During his 6-month "negotiations", he drained every cash available in every public fund: pensions schemes, insurance repositories, you name it

Worst of all though, is that he put the final nail in the coffin of the image of Greece and Greeks in Europe. I've never felt more humiliated than watching respectable EU officials like Dijsselbloem being dragged from meeting to meeting to get lectured by a colourfully-dressed narcissist, who couldn't even follow protocol on where to wear a damn suit.

tin_mama_sou@reddit

Who is they? I was in greece, he fucked us over. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Erdoğan supporters are naturally getting angry, but from the opposition’s perspective this isn’t surprising.
Trade relations between Israel and Turkey tripled during Erdoğan’s time in power.
During the 2018 election campaign, the race was between the opposition candidate M. İnce and T. Erdoğan. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz wrote that, for Israel’s interests, the best outcome would be another Erdoğan victory.

Take your pick.

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Top_Percentage_905@reddit

He is one of the few that dares speak truth, and is widely heard.

This makes him a more important person then most other 'important' politicians in Europe. Most of whom are little more then political prostitutes.

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cafesolitito@reddit

He's the type of leftist that is very good at making the certain noises and catch phrases that internet leftist in places like Reddit, or left-leaning college educated people love to hear.

I'm not saying what he says is wrong (I do disagree with him at times) but it's a sort of "he's really good at telling people what they like to hear"

Varoufakis is, beyond his brief experience in power, a noted economist, the leader of a pan-European party and a successful author. So, he has a voice!

The problem with Varoufakis is that he is great with analysis but extremely poor in proposing solutions to the problems that he identifies. And this is the reason his party is polling so poorly in Greece. He used his time in Parliament to accurately identify problems but he offered no solutions that were either practical or possible.

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-who_am-i_@reddit

That's not true. He gives solutions all the time. his party is polling poor because of the smear campaign against him

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TheMidnightBear@reddit

the leader of a pan-European party

With zero representatives at literally any parliamentary level, lol.

The problem with Varoufakis is that he is great with analysis but extremely poor in proposing solutions to the problems that he identifies. And this is the reason his party is polling so poorly in Greece. He used his time in Parliament to accurately identify problems but he offered no solutions that were either practical or possible.

I too can complain about society's problems, but have no idea how to solve them, or even propose solutions that make things worse, lol.

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userrr3@reddit

I too can complain about society's problems, but have no idea how to solve them, or even propose solutions that make things worse, lol.

mikewazoski59@reddit

Hi ChatGPT, should I shove my d*ck in your eye?

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Damaged_DM@reddit

What are you talking about. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians it is a weekend operation. Instead 200k bombs dropped on Gaza over 2 years kill 70k people. Do you think the pilots hitting targets in Iran are somehow missing in Gaza?

Moreover it is not (yet) an apartheid state. Palestinians don't have rights since they are not citizens. Arab Israelis have full rights.

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Lothronion@reddit

Sure, the Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians.

False. There are 2 million Palestinian Arabs living in Israel, which are Israeli Citizens, they can elect and be elected, become politicians, become judges, become lawyers, become soldiers, become entrepreneurs et cetera. There was even an Israeli Arab Palestinian judge that took place in the three-judge trial of a former Israeli Prime Minister, where along with the two Jewish Israelis he condemned him to prison for sex offends and attempted rape.

It is an apartheid state that exceeds in ferocity that of South Africa.

Also false. The definition of Apartheid in international law makes it clear that it refers to the situation within a state's sovereign territory, so here it would only refer to the Israeli Arab Palestinians, those who are Israeli Citizens. The above description makes it clear that they are not legally separated and discriminated, as part of segregation laws in their legal system. The situation in the West Bank, often wrongly described as Apartheid, is in fact a military occupation, so outside of Israel, as it is not even Israeli sovereign territory. And of course the inhabitant of an occupied territory does not have the same legal rights with citizens of the occupying party, nobody on the planet practices the opposite.

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aa1898@reddit

The fallacy here is that Israel keeps settling more and more Israeli Jews into the West Bank, and magically these people do happen to keep the same legal rights while also becoming inhabitants of the West Bank. A growing population in the West Bank has full Israeli citizenship and maintain all the rights and protection that they would in Israel. Throw up all the semi interesting legal smokescreens you want; even Israeli human rights organisations are calling out the apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide by now. The nearly 60 year occupation is exactly the vehicle of all this, not an acquittal.

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Lothronion@reddit

The fallacy here is that Israel keeps settling more and more Israeli Jews into the West Bank, and magically these people do happen to keep the same legal rights while also becoming inhabitants of the West Bank. A growing population in the West Bank has full Israeli citizenship and maintain all the rights and protection that they would in Israel.

I actually agree, in the case of Israel annexing this territory and failing to give Israeli citizenship to the Arabs there.

even Israeli human rights organisations are calling out the apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide by now

I think that we need to re-appraise issues here. Yes, the support of Israel by Greece is odious, but it makes little to no difference overall in the standing of Israel. If the major EU countries are not willing to do anything in particular, it would be silly for Greece to incite US enmity by open criticism for Israel. At least, in Greece, the people are allowed to demostrate against Israeli policies. One likely ends up in prison doing the same in the UK or in Germany.

On the other hand, a Greece-Cyprus-Israel axis is one that no Greek politician is willing to ignore. And as long as there is a strong antagonism with Turkey on virtually anything, this axis is extremely useful for Greece.

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KushBerry55@reddit

It actually makes a lot of difference.

We’re allowing US/Israeli to refuel and train here. US has a lot of military bases and equipment here, and it’s a great geographical advantage to have a place where they can regroup, train and refuel when you’re so far away from your country.

Plus, as we’ve seen by somewhat recent events (drone strikes at Crete and Cyprus) you become a target.

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adamgerd@reddit

Why would Greece have to be ashamed of standing on the right side of history? Against Islamists

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adamgerd@reddit

Some day you’ll be ashamed of blindly supporting Palestine

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KushBerry55@reddit

It all circles around. We’ve been cucked for decades by the US. The US is being cucked/blackmailed by Israel.

When you have one of the most dishonest and corrupt government and without any backbone, it’s only a natural consequence of supporting genocide. Don’t forget that our government, especially the current one will be remembered as probably the worst, selling out the country, stealing European funds, taxes and overall we are talking about total corruption, 0 justice system, mafia like assassinations and propaganda.

Be sure that a vast majority doesn’t support this. This summer alone there were protests all over the country.

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antonislak@reddit

The greeks that support Israel is the minority trust me, II have people from left, center and right ideologies (with common sense) that all despize Jewish supremacy and zionism.

Greekdorifuto@reddit

Its not whataboutism since I didn't try to deflect. What I am asking you is why dont you act the same about other countries who do the same things?

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ISIS literally apologized to Israel when they fired at them, why do you think Israel would help Greece against ISIS thousands of kilometers from home when they don't even do it in their own backyard

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LegalizeCatnip1@reddit

Just like it helped the Gulf states to not get attacked by Iran, right?

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Acceptable-Sense-256@reddit

Just like it helped the gulf countries not to get attacked by the CIA

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This_Lion5856@reddit

Thats until Israelis buy up enough land in Cyprus and declare they need it for security reasons.

Given how they have acted with any single country around them, it is just a matter of time

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TankerDerrick1999@reddit

If it annoys the turks then it's effective already.

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EvilInGood@reddit

We aren't annoyed, we are neutral about Israel.

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TankerDerrick1999@reddit

gif

Siding with the world’s biggest pariah state that has been found guilty of actively committing a genocide because it annoys Turks?

Greece siding with Israel makes Turkey look better optically on a global level, if you think Turks are annoyed youre wrong. Disappointed? Maybe some, but why would nationalist Turks be upset over Greeks deciding to cut off their noses to spite their face?

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abki12c@reddit

You should be the last to talk about genocide given not only the three major known genocides your country has commited but also the active genocide the Turkish army is commiting against the Kurdish population (which according to comment of Turks here they seem to support it)

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AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit

Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.

In any case, refrain from posting or commenting in such a manner.

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Lothronion@reddit

Siding with the world’s biggest pariah state

Greece is not siding with North Korea.

that has been found guilty of actively committing a genocide because it annoys Turks?

North Korea has not committed a genocide yet.

As for Israel, stating that they have been "found guilty of actively committing a genocide" is quite a stretch, given how it has not been conclusively determined yet by the political scientists studying this topic. You are invoking authority, but even these academic authorities do not agree on this matter. For example, take this graph from the Wikipedia article on the topic: only 46% deem it a genocide, while the rest, being 54%, so more than half, do not. Sure, 36% say that what is going on is "Major war crimes akin to genocide", but there is no "akin to genocide", either there is genocidal intent, or there is not, there is no "half-genocide" through "half genocidal intent" (either one wants to kill someone for no other reason than being what they are, or not, there is no half killing).

Ultimately, it will take years to determine whether it was a genocide or not, once sufficient information has been gathered on internal Israeli military communication (to see if orders were given with genocidal intent), as well as conflict epidemiology (to see if the count of the dead matches what one would expect if the killing was done with genocidal intent), since scientific research takes years to evaluate all available information and come to a conclusion (like how the Iraq War death toll was conclusively determined a decade later). Unfortunately, given that currently the situation is almost a 50-50 split among academics, it would take a while, if it was 70-30 on either side we could say things with much greater certainty.

Then again, if we are talking about academic consensus on genocides, Turkey does not have a good record in recognizing them, such as the well-known Greek Genocide of 1913-1923, so it should not throw rocks when its house is made of glass.

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The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit

Such a based reply, sweet mother of god.

We are genociding so hard the Palestinian population is booming.

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Lothronion@reddit

Well, to be fair, I am not exactly arguing that there is not a genocide, just that what the Turkish user above said, his appeal to authority that there is one with absolute certainty, simply does not stand up to scrutiny, as not even academic authorities can agree on the matter, but are almost evenly split. And to appeal to authority right now would be naïve, not only since political science requires years of analysis to reach a verdict, but also given how much propaganda there is, from both sides. For example, the Palestinian delegates in UN accused Israel of genocide in Gaza in the 11th of October 2023, when Israel had not even yet fully managed to expel all Hamas fighters from its territory, so, since they had not yet achieved restoring sole effective rule on their own sovereign land, there were no Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip.

If I were to argue the above, I would be focusing on other things, like conflict epidemiology.

I am not sure your demographic argument is very good, since genocide is about intent, and theoretically Israel could have had the intent but decided to conceal it by using more covert means, as opposed to just carpet bombing the Gaza Strip (which would mean hundreds of thousands of dead), so to present it as a mere demographic decline, but still failing to do so effectively. Of course, though, that is extremely unlikely to be the case.

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Le_Fish_In_Lava@reddit

tl;dr : hes a fascist standing with israel and uses excuses to do so

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Lothronion@reddit

Sure, name-calling is a common smokescreen to cover the lack of counter arguments. Which is why it is a logical fallacy, ad hominem.

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Le_Fish_In_Lava@reddit

okay chatgpt

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AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit

Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.

Really? And why was a deal necessary to begin with? A deal that would have expired and left Iran with greenlight for nukes? The Iranian regime has a vision that needed stopping. Who would do that? Croatia? France? lmao.

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crogameri@reddit

And why was a deal necessary to begin with? A deal that would have expired and left Iran with greenlight for nukes?

The deal was necessary because the west doesn't trust Iran to exercise their right to civilian nuclear technology that they have by international law, which is why Iran granted international observers which by all accounts were doing their job.

The Iranian regime has a vision that needed stopping. Who would do that? Croatia? France? lmao.

Oh yeah because a Syrian refugee crisis x4 is so much fucking better for the continent than protecting Israel's fragile fucking ego. There is currently only one genocidal state in the ME with nuclear bombs, and that's fucking Israel.

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adamgerd@reddit

Iran’s destruction is great for all of Europe, and if you can’t see that you’re blind

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crogameri@reddit

Iran’s destruction is great

You realise when you say this type of shit it doesn't give "we're going to free the people of Iran" vibes but more like "were going to butcher schoolchildren" vibes.

And Israel’s fighting a war, not doing a genocide no matter what TikTok claims

They just instated race rased laws that could see Palestinian citizens executed within 90 days of military trial and you still defend that totalitarian shithole.

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Present-Image-90@reddit

This reply demonstrates the self deception and cowardness of so many European countries.

Facts: Iran was in systemic violation of international law, leading to the Obama agreement, progressing towards a bomb. In 2003, it was discovered that Iran had been building clandestine nuclear sites (like Natanz and Arak) for 18 years without reporting them. The IAEA formally declared Iran in non-compliance with its safeguards agreement in 2005. Between 2006 and 2010, the UN passed six major resolutions (such as Resolution 1929) ordering Iran to stop all uranium enrichment. Iran ignored these. Furthermore, Intelligence agencies and the IAEA gathered evidence that until 2003 (and in some forms until 2009), Iran had conducted experiments specifically related to weaponization. Even during the deal Iran continued producing massive amounts of long range missiles, although the deal specifically asked not to.

The Syrian refugee crisis you're whining about was actually caused by Iran.. meddling in Syria and sustaining Assad's regime with the help of Hezbollah, bringing death to Syria and the region.

But hey, as long as you can hate on Israel so you can feel good.

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crogameri@reddit

Facts: Iran was in systemic violation of international law, leading to the Obama agreement, progressing towards a bomb. In 2003, it was discovered that Iran had been building clandestine nuclear sites (like Natanz and Arak) for 18 years without reporting them. The IAEA formally declared Iran in non-compliance with its safeguards agreement in 2005. Between 2006 and 2010, the UN passed six major resolutions (such as Resolution 1929) ordering Iran to stop all uranium enrichment. Iran ignored these. Furthermore, Intelligence agencies and the IAEA gathered evidence that until 2003 (and in some forms until 2009), Iran had conducted experiments specifically related to weaponization. Even during the deal Iran continued producing massive amounts of long range missiles, although the deal specifically asked not to.

Literally all of these could be applied to Israel if anyone cared about applying international law on western satellite states.

The Syrian refugee crisis you're whining about was actually caused by Iran.. meddling in Syria and sustaining Assad's regime with the help of Hezbollah, bringing death to Syria and the region.

Yeah but let's completely forget that the US, Turkey and the rest of the West helped level Syria over the course of that decade.

But hey, as long as you can hate on Israel so you can feel good.

Do you not hate genocidal states? It seems like a normal thing to do.

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KushBerry55@reddit

The people are furious, it just so happens with that the most incompetent and corrupt government.

We held protests all over the country especially during the summer. Protests for Palestine are happening all this time.

And before someone says we haven’t done enough, I suggest to check out how the whole thing with Tempi, from the moment it happened up until now

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Erdogan openly supports Hamas/Hisbollah and has been threatening Israel ever since hamas declared war on Israel.

He even declared a national day in memorial when one of his Hamas billionaire-friends died.

It gets voters. Its stupid.

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Dry_Kangaroo7571@reddit

It’s just all talk, Erdogan and the right wing does the same thing.

Nobody with an actual understanding of geopolitics think they’re a threat to each other.

Turkey is in NATO and has arguably the second most powerful land army in NATO. Israel has nuclear weapons and is closely aligned with the US. There is a massive interest for both sides to not start a conflict with each other.

Also, why would they fight? The “Great Israel” stuff isn’t true and is just demagoguery from right wing extremists in Israel that anti-Israel propaganda just eats up. Israel doesn’t have ambitions on taking Turkish territory.

Even with current hostility, trade is surprisingly strong. Turkish business, including pro-government networks, still profits from trade with Israel.

This thread is dumb. Greece’s strategic alignment is because of geopolitics and nonetheless, they still support Palestinian statehood.

They are taking more and more parts of Lebanon and they have religious lunatics at charge in Israel

For how intertwined they are now, the Greek-Israeli states were not that close diplomatically until about the 2009 crisis.

After the neoliberal dissolution of the greek state was hastened by the crash, the zionist state found ripe ground to invest and dispossess greek wealth, establish military collaboration and plant themselves into the collective memory as cultural "brethren" to greeks.

By 2010 they'd been in cahoots with both the far right New Democracy and the neoliberal wing, something that continued during the fake-left government debacle.

Greece is sort of a back porch for israelis. Their main colonial project is in the Levant/Palestine, but they make sure to expand their economic hegemony by gentrifying greek areas, so as to have safe vacation homes when the resistance of the people they genocide becomes a bit too violent and uncomfy for them.

He is completely wrong, and he presents himself as way more important than he was, as if he was some final bastion within the SYRIZA-ANEL Greek Government of 2015-2019, preventing the Greek rapprochement with Israel. I would even say he is lying, but it is very possible he does not know what he is talking about.

In actuality, the Greco-Israeli rapprochement had already begun with the Centre-Left PASOK Greek Government of George Papandreou in 2011, then continued by the Centre-Right New Democracy Greek Government of Antonis Samaras in 2012-2015. What is particularly important here is that Greco-Israeli shared military exercises had already began in this period, before the ascension of the SYRIZA-ANEL Greek Government, of which Gianis Varoufakis belonged.

And not only that, but what he says about Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias being the first in allowing the Israeli Defence Forces to use the Greek Airspace for military exercises is completely false as well. This is because such shared drills had already been taking place in the period of 2011-2015, and they are particularly important for Israel, since it was thanks to Greece allowing them to test their anti-ballistic missiles and air defences in the open expanse of the Libyan Sea, south of Crete, that they could develop with ease the famous Iron Dome, which has played such an important role in current Israeli strategic and tactical planning.

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Greekdorifuto@reddit

https://youtu.be/aSw8AR7oppY?is=AwIY1_Rnskll8aDW

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Lothronion@reddit

Thank you for sharing this.

What a weather! Someone took at heart the British motto, "If it ain't raining, it ain't training"!

As far as I see it, there are three takeaways from this situation: Either (A) Gianis is outrightly lying, either (B) he is speculating based on what little info he might have had as a Finance Minister, and despite that information not being classified he simply failed to make note of it, which would be gross incompetence, and now he is making up the rest of it for political flaunt, or (C) he is simply misremembering things, due to talking about things that took place more than a decade ago, which is still very irresponsible to do.

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Please, just drop it 😂

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ViewFromTheKathisma@reddit

Idiot it is then; but since you struggle with it, I will give you this very simple article from MIT than you read at your own leisure. Take your time, you can even translate it to Romanian if you are struggling to understand.

https://mitsloanedtech.mit.edu/ai/teach/ai-detectors-dont-work/

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mikewazoski59@reddit

gif

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Lothronion@reddit

Nobody asked for selfies.

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mikewazoski59@reddit

🤫

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It is not as if such "AI detectors" are not often completely wrong.

And imagine delegating your critical thinking to machines.

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mikewazoski59@reddit

Don't make it any worse

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Lothronion@reddit

The funny thing is that your image is just a poorly cut snapshot, so there is not even the proof that it is an "AI" evaluating my own text, as it could be of a random "AI" generated one that you present as if it is about mine.

You must be able to understand that I for myself do offer none of my personal opinion but just describing reality. As for Greek-Israel relationship it only came to be after erdogan destroyed his relationship with Israel a big traditional ally for the Turks. In fact throughout the later half of the 20nth century Greece did more for Palestinian kids than any other country other than the Arab states and even the rest of the Arabs seem to have a very unflattering image of the Palestinians. Greek PM Andreas Papandreou took over a fucking cruise ship and gave refuge to Arafat. Proposing that Greek foreign policy should change its stance to Israel now even though even the Arab state have come to accept its existence just for the sake of morality in the current international climate is by all accounts a suicidal move. As for Greek-Turkish relations it is important to respect the international law and the sovereignty of every state and people over their land and rights something that as an American I don’t expect you to understand, currently between the two countries only one hasn’t signed Unclos and only one of them continues to keep occupational forces over European country and member state of the un and Eu. If it is a consolidation I can tell you that I would love a Turkey Eu member and amicable friend and neighbour but if that should ever happen turkey must abandon its Neo imperialism policy something that will be treated as a national betrayal.

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Worried-Owl-9198@reddit

gif

Thinking that Greece or any other balcan country as a sovereign state is wrong. If balcan does not unite, the problem will be endless. And when I say balcan I mean the entire peninsula. Slovenia to Moldova l, the entire coast line

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El_chaplo@reddit

It's funny when it comes to Greece and it's politics, all of a sudden everybody is an expert in politics, military and economics. In reality though nobody knows anything.

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DimGenn2@reddit

I support it.

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PaceZealousideal2807@reddit

I thought Greece was a country not Israel's bitch

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1970ivan@reddit

As a Serb I support it too, the reality is you need someone who will help you against Turkey and you were standing alone against them protecting entire ortodox Balkan countries at the same time. Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria and Romania should have sent you troops and money to help you with the burden but since we are weak and corrupt Israel is a good choice as well.

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Last_Greek@reddit

Hopefully it’s just a means to an end

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Careful-Professor-78@reddit

this is guy is delulu.