What do the Greek people and the Balkan peoples think about Greek-Israeli relations?
Posted by PieBright8211@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 452 comments
abki12c@reddit
My country benefits from this alliance so there's no reason not to support it
Natopor@reddit
And how exactly does it benefit?
abki12c@reddit
Greece gets access to high end military equipment cheaper than what the USA offers
There's a plan for a "Great Sea Interconnector" cable to be routed from Israel to Cyprus to Greece, which Turkey sends shis to stop this project which will make Greece and Cyprus energy hubs.
Greece strengthens its role in the Eastern Mediterranean power balance
The enemy of my enemy is my friend
8elly8utton@reddit
Israel is the enemy of mankind though
fstbm@reddit
Turkey was an ally of ISIS who rapes and mutilated Muslim children and wonen across the middle east
Natopor@reddit
You do somewhat inflate some things.
Cooperation with Israel can bring some benefits but its nowhere near close to replace dependence from the USA or Europe. So Israel isn't really game changing, rather an extra bonus.
The energy project you mentioned is still uncertain and facing delays. So not guaranteed benefits, rather "ifs".
As for "the enemy of my enemy", alliances shift every day, especially in the Middle East. Its not a stable strategy for the long time. Nevermind Greece and Turkey are both NATO members and until that chances, I doubt we will see a conflict. nevermind that whichever will start that conflict will get the rest of NATO on them.
So while benefits are, they are rather limited and conditional.
abki12c@reddit
Israel is game changing because of Turkey and a more reliable ally than some european countries who tried to rip Greece apart in the economic crisis.
These energy projects are always long term and the benefits are reaped years later.
As for the alliances, Israel doesn't seem to change it's stance against Turkey anytime soon.
A conflict between Greece and Turkey is guaranteed when Greece extends its territorial waters to 12 miles which will happen. And i wouldn't trust NATO intervening.
Pantolonun_Utulusu@reddit
Of course, if Greece extends the territorial waters to 12 nautical miles, you can be sure that Turkey will invade the Greek islands and Cyprus the next day. Israel weapons cannot change this result, but only increase casualties; the military power gap between Turkey and Greece are too high. Therefore I think Greece will never do that, it is just talk.
fstbm@reddit
Israel has air superiority, and Turkey will no be able to use its full power. With Israeli tech in Greece, Turkey will be in quite a pickle
Pantolonun_Utulusu@reddit
If we are talking about a full war with Israel forces fighting against Turkey, this could change the outcome.
However, Israel giving weapons to Greece would not change the outcome.
And I don’t see Israel actually fighting in such a case.
zoewithalab@reddit
I’m sorry but some Greek people are delusional on this sub. Israel doesn’t even fight their own wars, instead they make trump send American soldiers to Iran. Somehow, these people think Israelis will be on the front lines against Turkish military fighting on behalf of Greece. I’d strongly advise better engagement with reality, they’re almost psychotic.
Natopor@reddit
I'm really curious, why some greeks in here think Israel will fight for them. I mean, if Israel did come to join the fight for Greece, that would be the first they fought a war for someone else.
eu_lunatic@reddit
Depends, how many defenseless children does Turkey have?
fstbm@reddit
Israel fought already for Jordan, which Syria wanted to conquer, and for the Druze in Syria which Sunni wanted to massacre, and for Lebanon freeing it from a Palestinian army.
zoewithalab@reddit
Is Greece promised land as well?
fstbm@reddit
Uh?
Dry_Kangaroo7571@reddit
What are you talking about? Israel fights tonnes of wars and have one of the most experienced militaries on the planet 😂
abki12c@reddit
Nobody thinks they're going to fight for us in the front lines, but they'll definitely help one way or another.
fstbm@reddit
Israel is bombing Iran more than the Americans, and the Arabs beg America to continue to bomb their worst enemy - Iran.
Greekdorifuto@reddit
Well, increasing the casualties can change the outcome
Nowayisthatway@reddit
You are right about the reliable part
https://www.thenationalherald.com/israel-rejects-turkey-maritime-deal-that-would-isolate-cyprus/?hl=en-US#:~:text=Turkey%20in%202019%20signed%20a,an%20energy%20ship%20working%20previously.
Natopor@reddit
Well now we shifted from facts to personal biases and assumptions.
You can have ties with Israel and they can bring benefits, but its not gonna make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.
It's true Europe did push for austerity, but it was also Europe also provided bailout funding and kept Greece in the Eurozone. Mind you, Israel has no obligation to help Greece, be it economicaly or military.
Yes, energy infrastructure does take long. But the reality is that some of the projects may never be completed, or have become to economicaly demanding or be overtaken by new energy options.
Israel and Turkey have had a very changing relationship. They broke down, then they fixed it, then they broke down again. Relationships in the Middle ast change far easier. Thats the reality
So bascially your saying "A war with Turkey is guaranteed for we shall start it".
As for NATO, again, your argument is distrust, now actual fact. Its true NATO isnt always the best at solving confict between members, but saying conflict with Turkey is guaranteed ignores decades of crises where both sides stopped short of war precisely because of NATO and international pressure. If it really was that guaranteed, you two would have been at war long ago. There have been lots of crisise which didn't turn to war. Who do you think stopped these potential wars so far? it wasn't Israel, I'll tell you that much.
kulamsharloot@reddit
The Mossad itself is game changing, just to fill you in lol.
As long as Erdogan is ruling Turkey (or any Islamic ruler who's anti Israel) there won't be "alliance shift", regardless, no reason in the world for dropping alliances with Greece, at worst Israel will be allied with both but never trust Turkey and it's Muslim majority.
Natopor@reddit
Calling Mossad game changing is a onverstatement, even if they are competent. Intelligence sharing is always selective, not unlimited. Israel is more focused about its own. Greece mostly cooperates with NATO.
And seems you are ignoring what Erdogan has did. Under his rule (very long) relations with Israel have fallen, normalized, fallen again. Even now the two are somewhat ok with one another.
Israel also has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, muslims countries. Even Israel and Turkey had massive military cooperation in the 90s and early 2000s. So the muslim majority argument falls as well.
More broadly, Israel acts based on its own strategic interests, not as a guarantor for other countries. That’s why it’s more realistic to see this relationship as useful but limited, rather than decisive. So how some greeks in here belive Israel is gonna fight for Greece no matter what is quite interesting.
I would advise you you drop the absolutes and stop mixing geopolitics with religion and identity.
kulamsharloot@reddit
Mossad is game changing, like it or not.
Each country is focused on it's own, do you think heads of states are striking deals based on good will?
Both Israel and Greece have interests on each other, each for its own reasons.
Do you think the peace treaty with Jordan and Egypt doesn't include spying on each other? Being wary of one another?
Israel will certainly help Greece vs Turkey, I doubt it'll be actual fighting, but tech, Intel etc, for sure.
Natopor@reddit
There is a fine line between very competent and gamechaning. Unless they got secret Ray Guns to give to you, not much gamechanging. Just because you repeat the same thing twice doesnt make it true. it only forces me to repeat it again. Mossad is valuable but not decisive.
Your point about spying on Egypt and Jordan is not much of a gotcha. Its a non point. It doesnt prove permanent hostility or fixed alliance. You just reinforced my point about fluid relations. And while at it, by this logic Israel may also be spying Greece. So is Greece also a secret enemy? Is Mossad in greece? Are you a Mossad agent whos upset at me?
The big flaw here is that you claim Israel certainly will help Greece against Turkey. First of all, that would only happen if a war between Greece and Turkey breaks out. That is higly unlikely to happen due to NATO. Why? because if there was no NATO, you and Turkey would right now fight the third Greek-Turkish war by now.
Its funny because you also made a claim countries watching their own interests first. Yet Israel also watches the interests of Greece? You are assuming a level of commitment from Israel that no country displays, and one you yourself argued against in another point.
Tech, Intel? Its not that game changing, sorry to break it to you. If Israel did join militarly, that could make a difference, but anyting less than that would still have Greece in a bad position and in a risk of loosing. Israel will propitize first and foremost its own interests in the Middle East, alongside geopolitics and other relations, even with Turkey.
So as I told another greek guy who seem to see Israel and Mossad as gods, I would advise to drop the absolutes and certainly.
kulamsharloot@reddit
Did you hear about the beeper operation?
It was a game changer.
Did you hear about the red wedding operation?
I can go on.
It feels like you're underestimating both Israel and the Mossad, it's not a smart thing to do.
Natopor@reddit
So now we are arguing about cool tactical examples instead of geopolitics?
Successful operations don’t automatically translate into being game changing for another country’s overall position. It shows competence but not the ability to turn the tide in a Greek_Turkish War (assuming they would even want to do that).
There’s a difference between being effective in specific operations and being decisive at a geopolitical level. Greece for now is mainly shaped by NATO and Europe, alongside it's own capabilities.
I'm not underestimating. I'm just keeping things realistic. You are the one who sounds like he's debating which superhero is better and why. By that logic, I could point to historical tactical successes, like Stefan the Great at Vaslui in 1475, hence allying with Romania against Turkey now. That does not define moden geopolitics.
BroSchrednei@reddit
Wtf does that mean? Who is your "enemy"?
This isnt Hearts of Iron IV.
abki12c@reddit
The enemy of Greece in geopolitics is Turkey
BroSchrednei@reddit
Lol, what an insane statement. Then just attack them already, go and start an all out war with Turkey. I hope you fight right on the frontline.
abki12c@reddit
We're waiting for them to come at night, just like Erdogan said. We'll have the lubes ready and then we'll show them "The Greek way" as the Americans call it, or as we like to call it "Ottoman Justice".
BroSchrednei@reddit
Man Im going to enjoy seeing all you war hungry psychos get obliterated by Turkey. Thanks for forever changing my view on Greece.
Savings_Dragonfly806@reddit
Oh wow yeah let's go attack a country with a far bigger army and economy than us yeah so smart.
BroSchrednei@reddit
so let me get this straight, the only reason youre not starting a war of aggression against Turkey is because they have a bigger army?
Jesus Christ, if I knew how deranged Greeks were, I would've had much less sympathy for your economic situation. You people are bloodthirsty psychopaths and need to be stopped.
Greekdorifuto@reddit
What?
Ashenveiled@reddit
your statement is more insane then his
Nowayisthatway@reddit
I don't think people need to seriously think about this:
https://www.thenationalherald.com/israel-rejects-turkey-maritime-deal-that-would-isolate-cyprus/?hl=en-US#:~:text=Turkey%20in%202019%20signed%20a,an%20energy%20ship%20working%20previously.
KushBerry55@reddit
So let’s all hold hands with a zionazi state because “benefits”? I’ll never understand this logic
Huge respect to Spain, I don’t know jack shit about your politics, but its relieving to finally see a European politician with a backbone
xzgbnma@reddit
This is how most countries work. Benefits to the country. All countries are selfish to themselves.
KushBerry55@reddit
No that’s not true.
We live in a world where power is abused at all levels, powerful countries always tend to force smaller countries to do their bit.
Greece is a great example of how a corrupt sell out government has zero foreign politics and will always do what they are told.
I won’t pretend to live in an equal world where every country has its say and we all get along
xzgbnma@reddit
So you don't think most countries don't put their own interests above those of other countries?
I said most, and that applies to what I said at the beginning: countries will put their own interests above other countries.
Trump, for example, also told European countries to participate in the war. Greece did not participate and US is more powerful.
Nobody told you to pretend to live in an equal world, and how did you get that idea from what I said? If I tell you, "country prioritize the interests of objects over other country, that's not called equality."
Greekdorifuto@reddit
Its not an alliance , its a partnership
Asparaqa@reddit
You greeks really think taht israel is an ally or it is going to help you if a crisis happens against Turkiye? You could be friendly with Turkiye but you don't want to be because you are the ones who want to take advantage in Aegean and claim Western Turkiye. You are the one who see us as enemies.
This_Lion5856@reddit
People really have not been paying attention that Israel does not have allies, it has only enemies and servants.
Israelis dont see other people as equals and anyone denying this is delulu.
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
In any case, refrain from posting or commenting in such a manner.
Gold_Loquat7417@reddit
What a load of bullshit.
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
In any case, refrain from posting or commenting in such a manner.
FrozenDihh@reddit
You got banned LMAOOOO
TheGodfather742@reddit
Bro your president said in a public speech "Hey Greece, we will come one night", but of course we are the ones being unfriendly. Gtfo
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
It's truly disappointing that some people like you are incapable of noticing just how brain dead and bs is all of that you just wrote.
abki12c@reddit
Super-Owl2829@reddit
Would you feel okay if they use your countries weapon to attack civilians but in the end your country will have benefits?
DimGenn2@reddit
Yes.
abki12c@reddit
It's not going to happen. Greece is not attacking any other countries, only defending. There's no suggestion that Greece will help bombing. Last time Greece was asked to do that it was in 1999 in Serbia and a sub-liteurant refused to do so, even though to some this is regarded as one of these "ethical" bombings like in Japan.
JinxyMcDeath48@reddit
Is anything going on the Balkans or is it just a circlejerk about Israel?
Ok-Bug-6923@reddit
Reddit has been totally captured be foreign governments, bots, and ideologues. Nearly all subs have become a pro-Palestine, anti-west circle jerk. I spent ten minutes on Google and AI trying to find the agreement he’s talking about that was signed and couldn’t find it at all.
At this point, Reddit should just change its default language to Arabic/Russian/Chinese or something. Would likely save the bots some processing power in translating.
yyavuz@reddit
Go see r/worldnews and other major subs mate. Wtf are you talking about?
Ok-Bug-6923@reddit
I’m honestly shocked that there are ppl who think Reddit is anything but a pro-Palestine echo chamber. Worldnews is mixed and the opinions you get vary on the thread. But that’s literally the only one. Name three more subs
godric420@reddit
Most subs become echo chambers. There are plenty of echo chambers for people who are pro Israel and pro Palestine. There are probably more pro Palestine ones because polling indicates that Israel’s recent actions have made it pretty unpopular.
yyavuz@reddit
You are insane. Every major outlet is moderated by mainstream media. Whether media channels or major subreddits. Worldnews is not mixed, reddit is not mixed, it is clearly managed by pro Israeli oligarchs
You might get your account deleted if you make "antisemitic" comments here :)
RazTraveling@reddit
I thought I was only one noticing it, every major sub is obviously run by anti-west pro-Iran bots, random subs just spam… AI really brought something, autonomous bots lol
Pipic12@reddit
Your searching skills obviously suck. I managed to find this agreement in under a minute. It's called SOFA - Status of Forces Agreement and has been signed in 2015 in Tel Aviv.
Ok-Bug-6923@reddit
My searching skills? I already addressed this in another comment lol. Moron couldn’t be bothered to look at a child comment while saying my searching skill sucks.
But apparently not only does your searching skills suck, your comprehension faculties too. SOFA does the exact opposite of what was expressed in this clip. It’s a legal framework between the two countries for COOPERATION requiring APPROVALS. Fucking retard you are
One_Arm_Guillotine@reddit
Spotted the israeli
Ok-Bug-6923@reddit
I’m sure the Nazis would be super impressed by your sixth sense. Anyway, care to address any of my points such as what specific agreement he’s talking about? Or go about your day finding all Israelis online?
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Not only Greece, Albania as well. It's just we don't have a strong enough army like Greece has. We just have some dogs that don't stop barking and stealing.
rainofshambala@reddit
So the right wing governments that talk about patriotism and nationalism are the ones that are non patriotic and sell the country
ls007yt@reddit
We don't have a patriotic/nationalistic government
Aromatic_Dot_9536@reddit
But what is alternative, alience with turks against israel, this seems logical choice for greeks.
Pera_Espinosa@reddit
Also he says they signed a deal and then says it's without the consent of the Greek govt? What?
ADRzs@reddit
That was a joke, right?
Asparaqa@reddit
You greeks really think taht israel is an ally or it is going to help you if a crisis happens against Turkiye? You could be friendly with Turkiye but you don't want to be because you are the ones who want to take advantage in Aegean and claim Western Turkiye. You are the one wHo see us as enemies.
mrgleman@reddit
Nobody in his right mind claims western Turkey , it’s not 1920 , the Turks there outnumber the entire Greece , and Greece doesn’t “ claim “ aegian , we have aegian. It’s Turkey who claims it by ignoring intentional treaties and ignoring few hundreds of islands
pr0metheusssss@reddit
Greeks don’t think that, unless it’s the right wingers or boomers that are fed the propaganda from the government controlled media.
You have to realise two things about Greece:
The traditional media (tv, newspaper, major websites) were cash starved, and during Covid the government found a huge opportunity - under the guise of “covid information campaigns - to inject a massive amount of cash to the aligned media. Tens of millions of Euros, the infamous Petsas list scandal. The first round of this bribe was a warning: if you’re not aligned with us, you don’t get cash. By the second round, pretty much everyone major was aligned with the government. The third round solidified that. Within 3 years the media landscape shifted massively, and went under the full control of the government. This is the first time in Greece’s history that a single party had such big monopoly on media.
Whenever the government is doing something criminal, or against the interest of the people, or something unpopular, or even some financial scandal, they stoke nationalist tendencies through the media to distract the public opinion, like most right wing grifters worldwide. They try to focus the attention to “shady foreign powers” and “enemies abroad”, that are either heavily implied or explicitly described to be Turkey, or any other “enemy” that is fashionable at the current time due to whatever events going on (North Macedonia, Russia, etc.). Anyone opposing the government, or even whistleblowers exposing corruption, are branded as “foreign agents”, or being “funded by the enemy” to “undermine our country”, while the populace is urged to swallow their pride and support the government even on things are are inexcusable, for the shake of “national unity against the enemy”.
So yes, Turkey is often used as a scapegoat, maybe to an even bigger degree than Greece is used as a scapegoat by Turkey’s right wingers.
Asparaqa@reddit
Ok, so many israelis say that the new death penalty for palestiniand is not supported by majority, but it is. So don't try to fool me, I am a proud Turkish who knows my people much better than you and the fact that you Gr"ks are hateful while we are not. Just look at comment sections in r/greece whentasked what they think about tutks vs r/turkey when they were asked about gr"ks.
pr0metheusssss@reddit
You have the same boomer mentality that our boomer right wingers have.
You deserve each other, if only we could put you all in the same place and out of our countries, both counties would be much better.
The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit
Classy reply and you couldn't be more right.
The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit
We do support it, it is death penalty for Palestinians who went on killing sprees and survived. Did you ever bothered reading what is the law?
You probably read on your media that we are going to execute 10 thousand people.
The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit
Seems like every government is the same
Lothronion@reddit
There is no reason to think that; there is no bilateral defense treaty between Greece and Israel. And thank goodness, Greece does not need to send military forces to fight in Israel's wars, in the Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Syria, and its air forces to fly over Iraq and Iran.
Just like how a sheep can be friendly with a wolf. Speaking of friendliness is completely disingenuous, given Turkey's maintenance of the illegal occupation of Cyprus, its stationing of the Aegean Army in Smyrna, trained to make landings on islands, given its elected casus belli if Greece exercises her legal rights in accordance to UNCLOS (which do not require a third party's consent), given how the Turkish President constantly threatens Greece with bombing and war since 2022, and given how in 2022 there were around ten thousand illegal military overflights in the Athenian FIR.
Asparaqa@reddit
Calling Izmir Smyrna. Thats your logic against my country, not acknowledging my country's right to exist and borders. But beware, we are united as a nation against enemies who have an eye on Izmir and Istanbul. I will gladly ho to war against ypu in any case to defend my country. You and israelashould be erased from the earth.
ADRzs@reddit
Let me see: we take advantage in the Aegean and we claim Western Turkey? Are you feeling well or are you smoking something powerful? None of these are true in any way.
As long as Turkey attacks Greek sovereignty, it is indeed a perceived enemy! Greece has no claims on Turkey, it is all the other way around. So, as long as the situation is how it is, any devil can be of assistance.
This_Lion5856@reddit
Thats until Israelis buy up enough land in Cyprus and declare they need it for security reasons.
Given how they have acted with any single country around them, it is just a matter of time
abki12c@reddit
The Turks are already buying properties via Bulgarian companies in Evros and the islands
sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit
Well the difference is, Turke don't claim the lands they buy. Are you capable of recognizing that?
mrgleman@reddit
They don’t claim the land they buy , but they buy in the parts they claim ;)
Thrace(possible the worst region of Greece to live by FAR, so bad that even government plan of giving 10,000€ to people who settle there failed miserably ) and aegian aren’t some random choices
Pastourmakis@reddit
Only the lands they invade
abki12c@reddit
No
sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit
No surprises here
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
This is not because of a political agenda, but rather due to the fact that the real estate market in Turkey has been severely affected by Arab capital. At the moment, buying a house in the United States appears more profitable than buying one in Turkey.
Of course, there is also the issue that obtaining an EU visa has become more difficult after the refugee crisis. I am quite certain that the primary goal of those trying to buy property is to obtain an EU passport.
If there is any evidence suggesting that, similar to what Israel has done—or continues to do—in the Golan Heights or Southern Lebanon, Turkish settlements are being established there with the intention of later initiating an occupation, I would genuinely like to see proof of that.
Pantolonun_Utulusu@reddit
Source?
abki12c@reddit
https://en.protothema.gr/2025/03/31/turks-are-buying-up-thrace-and-the-islands-a-silent-settlement-via-real-estate/
Silly_Pattern9677@reddit
How have they acted with Jordan and Egypt?
Several-Zombies6547@reddit
Nobody offers an alternative. Everyone here acts on emotions and says vague things like "let's just all be friends". If the rest of Europe took Greek concerns more seriously, we wouldn't need an alliance with Israel.
readilyunavailable@reddit
You think Israel would come to your aid against Turkey? They will just sit back and send you thoughts and prayers and continue to further their own goals.
The EU is the one that will actually provide help in case Greece gets attacked due to the ratified co-defense traties in the EU.
Silly_Pattern9677@reddit
History shows that EU is far less likely to give a shit about what’s going on its own subcontinent. Israel does share intelligence, technology, and training with Cyprus/Greece. So yeah it seems like a much more reliable bet.
_just_me_here_@reddit
Well, maybe just not becoming their puppet?
nosfer82@reddit
For anyone wondering , just check our health minister tweeter account. He tags Israeli embassy frequently, so they see him licking their ass.
peristeratsipra@reddit
Truly moving that he decided to take a break from selling holocaust denial books to unprecedentedly glaze Israel🥹🥹
nosfer82@reddit
He is pretty consistent actually, Siding with Nazi though history.
peristeratsipra@reddit
Fair enough
GGTaxo@reddit
There are many things on which I disagree with Varoufakis, but he nailed it on this one.
Playful_Alela@reddit
I hate Varoufakis ngl. He may have some decent takes on some subjects, but he feels about as close to a tankie as you can get while still keeping you mainstream career. He always feels like he's hiding his power level to me
Worried-Owl-9198@reddit
In turkey we have a saying He who speaks the truth is expelled from nine villages. Varoufakis is absolutely right.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
We also have a saying in Greek. Whoever is outside of the dance, knows a lot of songs.
Varoufakis can say the most idealistic and outlandish of things because he has 0 political power and no consequences to face, like he would if he was in charge of Greece's foreign relations.
BiAiEnGiO@reddit
Dont let them get to you man. You know your truth.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Get to me? I couldn't care less about an echo chamber Reddit sub. Varoufakis got 2.4% and a ticket outside the parliament in the real world.
hunichii@reddit
So how does that disprove his points?
BeeUnfair4086@reddit
He is also wrong about that he isn't facing any consequences. He has been threatened by the greek establishment for his life and his character is getting assassinated non stop on tv by the fascist government.
Less than 3 years ago he got beaten badly by some group of guys in the street, for the things he said and yet Varoufakis still keeps going. This man is really someone to look up.
BroSchrednei@reddit
It doesnt, hes just a right-winger who gets angry when he hears the name Varoufakis.
Varoufakis was talking about a status of forces agreement btw:
Status of forces agreements are pretty heavily criticised in other countries like Germany and Japan, since they protect the US military and its personnel against local law enforcement. Theres lots of cases where a US soldier commits some crime, but gets away with it essentially because of the status of forces accord. And Greece now has one with Israel since 2015:
https://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/greeces-syriza-military/
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Framing a bilateral joint air force training as "becoming puppets to Zionism" doesn't make it a point. What's the reasoning here exactly? When did Israel command Greece to do something?
StreetYak6590@reddit
Care to refute anything he said here?
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Like what? The guy didn't even say anything. He just uses sensationalist language like "war games" to describe what is essentially joint air force training.
Cold_Librarian_7703@reddit
No.. he made the claim that Israel can, from its own volition use and abuse greeces air space without greeces consent. That’s claim - prove him wrong. Go ahead I am waiting.
New_Parking9991@reddit
the 2015 agreement was about joint military excersises. Excercises Israel would be invited by Greece.
It did not say from now on and forever Israel can use greek airspace freely and as they choose and Greece is a colony of Israel as varoufakis says.
Now i want you to prove my claim wrong : ''Turkey is under control of aliens and Erdogan is planning to blow up the planet''
Go ahead i am waiting.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
He won't respond. I can't see the upvotes yet but he probably already has at least 10 of them already.
Varoufakis used to be the useful idiot of Russia saying the war in Ukraine is the fault of NATO and the west. But that didn't win him as much points. Now he is the useful idiot of Turkey saying the most slanderous shit about Greece in Turkish newspapers, and because Israel has shit PR, he found an easy way to slander his country even more.
-who_am-i_@reddit
You are a brainwashed fool for thinking that. They threw all the mud on him that they could find and idiots like you believed the propaganda. Varoufakis is the only politician staying true to his beliefs. You have no single argument against him because he is right in everything he says and the only thing you have to say is "mimimi he is a narcissist for showing us his house"
BroSchrednei@reddit
Nope, youre just stupidly wrong.
The 2015 agreement was much more than just "joint military exercises" it was a status of forces agreement, which does give the Israeli military legal rights to station its military in Greece without being hindered by greek administrative law. The only other country that has a status of forces agreement with Israel is the US.
Status of forces agreements are pretty heavily criticised in other countries like Germany and Japan, since they protect the US military and its personnel against local law enforcement. Theres lots of cases where a US soldier commits some crime, but gets away with it essentially because of the status of forces accord.
https://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/greeces-syriza-military/
New_Parking9991@reddit
SOFA agreement does not give Israel right to station military without Greece's persmission nor does it give right to use greek airspace as they see fit.
Also your link is an opinion piece so keep that in mind. Comparing to US is kinda misleading as Israel does not have forces or bases in greek territory.
This agreement does not give Israeli any rights to do anything in Greece and is only in the context when invited for military training and joint excercises.
Since you say its not about joint military excercises on what else would it apply, i am all ears, since Israel got no troops in Greece.
This is the commenti responded, how does your reply prove me wrong.
kulamsharloot@reddit
Tbh I don't even see the point of Israel using Greek airspace if not for joint military exercises.
I mean, all the enemies aren't even close to Greece (unless you consider Turkey an enemy), what benefit does Israel get from it?
BroSchrednei@reddit
It doesnt automatically give Israel the right to built a military station on greek soil, but it absolutely gives Israeli military the right to use greek soil and airspace and gives its military legal protection for it.
Thats your opinion. It makes total sense to compare it with the US, since it's only Greece and the US that have a status of forces agreement with Israel.
That is just factually wrong. You do not seem to understand what a status of forces agreement is. Israel DOES have the right to move its troops to Greece and doesnt have to be specifically invited anymore. And when it does, Israeli soldiers aren't beholden to greek law. Thats the entire point of a status of forces agreement.
Which is also why it's so often criticised in the context of the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_forces_agreement
New_Parking9991@reddit
ok i cannot view your history so not sure if troll or not.
First your link from wiki does not back you up at all. Now
It does not,Israeli cannot use greek soil or airspace uninvited. The agreement with Greece and Israel has to with common excercises and joint training, SOFA applies for troops that are already in the country and its not about giving up sovereignty and free use of greek soil.
It is misleading to compare to US as greece for example hosts already US bases but we do not host bases or host Israeli military personel other when excercises or common training.
The agreement between Israel and Greece was about this, and this is where the SOFA terms apply, for invited military personel.
Did you read your wikipedia link btw?
kulamsharloot@reddit
Prove you don't have 50 sisters then. Refute what I said, go on, I'm waiting.
geoken@reddit
So you’re saying he is by default correct, and someone else must prove a negative to convince you against a claim he made with no evidence?
BroSchrednei@reddit
I mean Varoufakis cant defend himself in the comments, so the burden of proof is on the commenter here who said Varoufakis is false. If he is, then prove it.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
How convenient. So I can go record a video of myself saying "Turkey secretly sold dogs for consumption to Chinese markets". If someone else posts this on the internet, and you say that this isn't true, the burden of proof isn't on me who made the claim but on you to prove why it is false.
But I'll humour you. Yanis said this is part of a deal that happened in 2015 between Greece and Israel. Here is an article with a very clear bias against Israel, so it should point out the claim that Israel can "unilaterally send military aircraft without asking or consulting Greece". Except, it doesn't say this anywhere at all. It does however say that the two countries have a Status of Forces agreement. So what is this? Let's check wikipedia.
We can see that the US has this kind of deal with most European countries. But just this week we saw countries like Spain, Italy and others denying the passage/landing of US military aircraft. So does Israel has a separate deal with the Greek government? Maybe a special clause that grants them this incredible privilege? I can't even find a single source beyond Varoufakis saying that. Varoufakis who wasn't even part of the Greek government when the deal was struck, as he himself says he has already retired.
BroSchrednei@reddit
Buddy, I already posted all of this information three hours ago:
robby_arctor@reddit
No, the other user said Yanis doesn't know what he's talking about and they're asking them to explain why they think that.
It's perfectly reasonable, either explain your position or stop deflecting by arguing about how to argue.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
The burden of proof falls to you as a supporter of Varoufakis. He's the one that made this outlandish claim.
The fact that so many people here even believe this, is troubling.
BroSchrednei@reddit
Wrong.
The 2015 agreement was much more than just "joint military exercises" it was a status of forces agreement, which does give the Israeli military legal rights to station its military in Greece without being hindered by greek administrative law. The only other country that has a status of forces agreement with Israel is the US.
Status of forces agreements are pretty heavily criticised in other countries like Germany and Japan, since they protect the US military and its personnel against local law enforcement. Theres lots of cases where a US soldier commits some crime, but gets away with it essentially because of the status of forces accord.
https://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/greeces-syriza-military/
starxidiamou@reddit
Lmao how can you mess up simple logic? “War games” does not equal “joint Air Force training” and nor does unilateral usage of another’s airspace. Please.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Enlighten me then, what does war games mean in this context.
PaceZealousideal2807@reddit
I thought Greece was a country not Israel's bitch
Worried-Owl-9198@reddit
Im not saying this to put you down but please try to use some common sense.
abki12c@reddit
He speaks the truth for you because he gave an interview to Hurriyet slandering his own country and praising Turkey
He's said all kinds of stupid stuff. He said it was wrong that Greece helped Cyprus and he wants to abolish military service.
starxidiamou@reddit
He speaks the truth for Greece, too. Your emotions are just getting in the way of reason.
abki12c@reddit
He speaks the truth for 2% of the voters in Greece
Zeflonex@reddit
Present me one thing that he said in this video that’s false
Use proper argumentation to support your thesis
abki12c@reddit
As one other comment said:
"the 2015 agreement was about joint military excersises. Excercises Israel would be invited by Greece.
It did not say from now on and forever Israel can use greek airspace freely and as they choose and Greece is a colony of Israel as varoufakis says."
Now prove me with proper argumentation that what Varoufakis said is true
-who_am-i_@reddit
The right wing idiots believe the propaganda and the smear campaign against varoufakis. They have no arguments, i have never read a single argument against his points
Zeflonex@reddit
I believe that Varoufakis has made mistakes
Every single politician has, it’s expected
But you need to be seriously brainwashed to hate a person who wants everyone to have a good standard of living and wants to stop big companies from fucking us over
-who_am-i_@reddit
Sure he has made mistakes, but they weren't even close to what mistakes others did
urhiteshub@reddit
That's not how truth works.
DryDatabase169@reddit
There is no absolute truth... Plato's cave? :)
-who_am-i_@reddit
You are a brainwashed fool for thinking that. They threw all the mud on him that they could find and idiots like you believed the propaganda. Varoufakis is the only politician staying true to his beliefs. You have no single argument against him because he is right in everything he says and the only thing you have to say is "mimimi he is a narcissist for showing us his house"
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
You think that people do really read bloody Hurriyet, besides some dying breed of centre-right-wing moguls kin to Nea Dimokratia mirror images?
Eh, no. He said, Greece practically was helping to keep the British bases secure rather than Cyprus itself. It is right, by the way, as Cyprus wasn't the target but the target and the problem were the British colonial bases, and there'd be no imminent threats without their presence.
New_Parking9991@reddit
the bases are not in a desert, they are in inhabited area and integrated.
Sending ships (we were not the only ones that did even Spain did) was for Cyprus and Cypriots.
If that is the case since Varoufakis talked to turkish newspaper he should be saying Spaniards are slaves of Israelis since they use patriot unit to help Turkey down missiles from Iran.
See how braindead this sounds.
Also the deal in 2015 anyone can read about it, there is nothing colonial about it and it did not give israel to use greek airspace as they please. So he is an established liar!
People in Greece know him as not the one that stoop up agaist Troika,but as the one that failed to negotiate and cost the country.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
You don't say? /s Then, again, why these areas are targeted in the first place?
Yes, yet, they were there since the British colonial bases, and ultimately, it was for their defence as well in the objective sense as they are the ones that are targeted. Look, I myself is grateful for those ships, but come on now, we both know why such imminent threat was a thing in the first place.
Mate, your point was about 'oh you like him since his article in this specific newspaper', although, again, nobody even remembers that, let alone the said newspaper itself being totally out of fashion by now.
Eh, it'd blame Tsipras for that. He had left the office since the day Syriza decided to cave in.
New_Parking9991@reddit
these bases were targeted despite UK would let US use them so what is your argument here.
So we supposed to let Cyprus indefensible and if a drone or missile hit and kill cypriots outside base area just worry later?
So spain is both in Cyprus and in Turkey. I guess spain is a colony of Israel since they protect US bases in so many places.
Tsipras was elected with the redline staying in Euro, if Varoufakis as economy minister was not able to negotiate a better deal than the one we already had,and got worse results its on him.
Btw he openly lies in the video about the military agreement about joint excercises. So leaving aside other statement just this video alone,establishes him as a liar.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
The said bases had been in use for the sake of US and Israel, even though they weren't utilised for striking to Iran directly. They're crucial in gathering data and they've been used for other purposes including the US planes using hangars.
No, but those bases shouldn't be a thing in the first place anyway. If anything, decolonisation of those should be pushed instead. Now, again, of course I have nothing against the EU countries coming in help of Cyprus, and I'm grateful for them as well - yet, objectively, they're just there to eliminate the threats solely due to the British colonial bases, and towards those colonial base areas.
You cannot negotiate a better deal, when your all game and even the result of the referendum had been scrapped off, and your own fellow ministers and your own prime minister backstabs you? I'm not gonna claim that I can read into alternative scenarios and can tell about the outcome, but it wasn't Varoufakis who caved in - which was surely going to result in a worse deal, even just to make an example out of Greece.
I genuinely cannot comment on that, as that's not smth I'm even tangentially versed on.
New_Parking9991@reddit
Cypriot goverment has tried in the past and even now to negotiate them out. There is a big elephant in the room called Turkey and their occupying forces. British giving up their sovereignty can open a can of worms and create big problems at least if no reunification.
Now till that happens we supposed to leave Cypriots undefended?
But you could get a worse one, and they did,thats the whole point, They rose to power because ''we will get better deal and stay in the euro'' they lied and got worse deal.
Varoufakis accepted the job on these premises and failed as finance minister.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
No, not really? Turkey is more than fine with those bases, as they also legitimises their stay and them asking for a stay even after the reunification.
No, but again, it doesn't change the fact that, Cyprus is under imminent threat only since the British colonial bases, and objectively, the defence is about defending those base areas. Now, again, it's not a bad thing as those areas are full of Cypriots as well, rather than the sole British military build-up, but still.
Indeed, and it was bound to happen if they pushed the EU core for a better deal and caved in. Yet, it was Tsipras and the rest of Syriza, while Varoufakis got backstabbed. His capabilities as a finance minister and a negotiator may be debatable but he wasn't even able to do what he was supposed to do, but his own prime minister worked behind his back.
New_Parking9991@reddit
there was no caving in, it was either the deal or grexit, and noone voted them for grexit.
If the bases are gone, it means the status quo is no more it might give Turkey legal argument for the occupied north. Its not a simple British give back the bases to Cyprus and we go on about our day, this is what i mean.
So the finance minister did not know the goverment he joined was voted with redline we stay in the euro?
Come on now, we have statement and records about what happened and how capable negotiator he was.
P-l-Staker@reddit
I mean...
abki12c@reddit
If you mean that he's right then you are completely wrong
Royal-Professor-4283@reddit
A few other favorite sayings from Turkey: "genociding the Greeks and Armenians is so fun!", "The Kurds are next!" and of course "Also the jews!"
Oh Turkey, even in 100 years Israel won't manage to match your degeneracy!
Independent-Bee-2890@reddit
Well according to “tolerant” Reddit, the Jews where expelled from 109 so I think I’ll trust them rather
Kappalonia@reddit
I think 109 is a bit higher than 9
New_Parking9991@reddit
Varoufakis was expelled after a disastrours run as economy minister that ended up putting the country under capital controls.
According to him exiting the EU (something he was not voted for) or even exiting NATO would be acceptable consequences for his policy.
Also he is talking for 2015 defense agreement which was a pretty standard one for common/joint excersices pretty much nothing colonial about it.
Also back then despite strained, Turkish -Isreali relationship was many times better than Greece-Israel one.
And historically this has always been the case till very recently.
SnooPoems4127@reddit
Why downvote this? It is true that Turkey was a sister of Israel for decades.
yyavuz@reddit
Because Turk-Israel thing is not the only thing the comment is about?
SnooPoems4127@reddit
<Also he is talking for 2015 defense agreement which was a pretty standard one for common/joint excersices pretty much nothing colonial about it.
u mean this one?
yyavuz@reddit
And prev 2 paragraphs
ibmi_not_as400_kerim@reddit
The guy is a huge weirdo and he was such a dork trying to act like a cool leather jacket wearing motorcycle bro while in office, but the Greek economy was in the toilet long before he took on the role and remained in the toilet after he left.
There was not a chance he could've done anything, except throw bluffs at Brussels only to cave in again.
New_Parking9991@reddit
His goverment, the Tsipras one won elections as a party that would keep Greece in Eurozone(that was a redline). Varoufakis was supposed to negotiate better terms for the bail out and memoranda compared to previous goverments.
Instead he failed to do so completely,and as it turned out according to his own beliefs he would be willing to gladly exit Euro something he was not voted for . He ended negotiating worse terms and plunging the country into a worse crisis with capital controls. I know poeple that took their own lives as a result.
So your comment is just naive and ignorant at best. Our country was setback years behind because of Tsipras goverment. Europeans called his varoufaki's bluff and he failed, hurting the country.
I understand in Reddit opinions like varoufakis's is popular exit euro exit nato,there are no illegal imigrants, stop paying debt, Greece is Israel's puppet. But reality dont work that way.
Varoufakis was a terrible politician and his failures as economy minister hurt the country at an important time for our country.
Overarching_Chaos@reddit
Τα capital controls επιβληθηκαν γτ σου πάγωσαν τη ρευστότητα από την ΕΚΤ, αλλά αυτό βολικά δεν το αναφέρετε.
New_Parking9991@reddit
γιατι το εκαναν,ισως μπορουσαμε να το αποφυγουμε?
Μηπως η Κυβερνηση που βγηκε τοτε, και ειχει υποσχεθει οτι θα εκανε καλυτερη διαπραγματευση......επρεπε να κανει καλυτερη διαπραγματευση?
Overarching_Chaos@reddit
Όπως τι? Μετά την υπογραφή του πρώτου μνημονίου σε έδεσαν χειροπόδαρα για να βγάλουν λάδι τις γαλλογερμανικές τράπεζες που τζογαραν τα λεφτά των Ελλήνων πολιτών. Γιωργάκης και Κωστάκης έπρεπε να είναι στη φυλακή κανονικά, το πρόβλημα δεν είναι ο Βαρουφάκης (με τον οποίο διαφωνώ σε διάφορα θέματα περί ανοιχτών συνόρων κλπ).
New_Parking9991@reddit
δεν ξερω ρε φιλε, ισως να μην εκαναν τιποτα, γιατι οι οροι για εμας εγιναν χειροτεροι μετα την διαπραγματευση τους.
Αφου ο κοσμος δεν ηθελε να βγει απο το ευρω γιατι αυτοι επαιξαν ΄ποκερ ενω ηξεραν οτι δεν προκειται να βγουμε?
Συμφωνω σε ολα αλλα γιατι να μας βαλει σε καπιταλ κοντρολ? Αν εκανε οντως καλη δουλεια δεν θα ξανα εβγαινε ΝΔ. ο μονος λογος που εχουμε ΝΔ τωρα ειναι γιατι τα σκατωσαν ρε φιλε!
Overarching_Chaos@reddit
Κοίτα ο κόσμος τους ψήφισε για να πάνε κόντρα στην Τρόικα. Το θέμα είναι ότι θέλαμε ομελέτα χωρίς να σπάσουμε αυγά, γτ στο σημείο που είχαμε φτάσει μέχρι το 3ο μνημόνιο, ο μόνος τρόπος να διαπραγματευτείς ήταν να είσαι έτοιμος ακόμα και να βγεις από το ευρώ. Όχι επειδή θες, αλλά επειδή θα ήσουν αναγκασμένος να ασκήσεις νομισματική πολιτική (που δε μπορείς χωρίς δικο σου νόμισμα).
Θα ήταν καλύτερα ή χειρότερα? Δεν έχω ιδέα και σίγουρα θα περνούσαμε 1-2 δύσκολα χρόνια, αλλά τσαμπουκας χωρίς να είσαι διατεθειμένος να παίξεις ξύλο δε γίνεται. Αυτό που ξέρω είναι ότι τα μνημόνια είχαν εξαρχής χαρακτήρα εκμετάλλευσης και όχι αναδιαρθρωσης και "νοικοκυρεματος" που δήθεν πλασαραν. Πολλοί οικονομολόγοι το είχαν τονίσει πριν τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.
Επίσης ξέρω ότι τώρα όλη η ΕΕ παρακμάζει εξαιτίας των υφεσιακων πολιτικών Μέρκελ/Σόιμπλε που την κατέστησαν τεχνολογικα και οικονομικά παρωχημένη. Ενέργεια δεν έχουμε, big tech δεν έχουμε, κρεμομαστε από τα αρχιδια της Αμερικής.
New_Parking9991@reddit
δεν τους ψηφισαμε ρε φιλε για να βγουμε απο το ευρω ομως.
Οι τυποι κανανε οτι τους ειπε η Τρωικα και με το παραπανω οταν ο κομπος εφτασε στο χτενι, οποτε τι νοημα ειχε η διαπραγματευση που εκαναν?
Στην ζωη παιζεις με το φυλλο που σου μοιρασαν, αν ειχαν κανει καλυτερη δουλεια και δεν το επαιζαν ψευτομαγκες ισως να ειμασταν καλυτερα τωρα, και πιστεψε με ΝΔ δεν θα ειχε βγει.
Τι θελεις να πω οτι πετυχανε ενω τα κανανε σκατα?
Μαζι σου οτι κουλης και πασοκο παρεα επρεπε να ειναι φυλακη, αλλα οχι μονο δεν ειναι ειναι τοπ 2 κομματα. Αν νομιζεις για αυτο δεν φταιει συριζα και πως τα σκατωσανε τοτε τι να πω.
Θελουμε καποιον ηγετη να πιστεψουμε και να συσπειρωθουμε σαν λαος οπως εγινε με Τσιπρα τοτε, αλλα οχι ατομα Βαρουφακη με μλκιες και αποικια των Εβραιων η Ελλαδα και πρασινα αλογα.
Overarching_Chaos@reddit
Τους ψηφίσαμε για να πάνε κόντρα στην Τρόικα. Όταν είσαι ξεβρακωτος στο 3ο μνημόνιο γτ έχεις βγάλει λάδι τις γαλλογερμανικές τράπεζες από το 1ο, με τι ακριβώς θα διαπραγματευτεις? Το μόνο που είχε μείνει ήταν να απειλήσουν με Grexit.
Τη μπλόφα με το Grexit την έκαναν όταν κατάλαβαν ότι η τρόικα δεν είναι διατεθειμένη να διαπραγματευτεί αλλά να επιβάλλει όρους. Δε σχολιάζω το αν ήταν σωστό ή λάθος, αλλά ο κόσμος δεν είχε πάρει πρέφα τι ζητούσε ουσιαστικά μέχρι να κλείσουν οι τράπεζες... Εάν ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είχε κάνει πίσω πιο νωρίς θα φαινόταν σαν συνθηκολόγηση και η κυβέρνηση θα έπεφτε και μπορει να έβγαινε καμία χρυσή αυγή που τότε επαιζε 3ο κόμμα, γτ υπήρχε πολύ έντονο αντιμνημόνιο αίσθημα (62%).
Δεν είπα πουθενά ότι δε φταίει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ή ότι δεν τα έκαναν πουτανα. Όλο το συστημικό πολιτικο τόξο είχε πάρει πρέφα τι σήμαινε ουσιαστικά η διαπραγμάτευση.
Μετά την υπογραφή του πρώτου μνημονίου δεν υπήρχε κανένα περιθώριο διαπραγμάτευσης χωρίς σοβαρές συνέπειες (έξοδος από ευρώ κλπ), αυτό λέω. Πριν, το ευρωπαϊκό χρηματοπιστωτικό σύστημα ήταν εκτεθειμένο στο ελληνικό χρέος και μπορούσες να διαπραγματευτείς. Μετά εξαγοράστηκε το χρέος από την Τρόικα και την έβγαλαν λάδι οι τράπεζες οπότε έμεινες με το πουλί στο χέρι.
New_Parking9991@reddit
δεν συμφωνω οτι δεν μπορουσαν να περασουν το μηνμονιο.
Αν αριστερη κυβερνηση δεν μπορουσε καλυτερους ορους δεν παιζει να πιστευε ο λαος κατι καλυτερο.
Νομιζω αν δεν τα ειχαν παει τοσο χαλια δεν κερδιζε εκλογες η ΝΔ. Απλα δεν επρεπε να τα σκατωσουν ρε φιλε.
Απο δηλωσεις τους πολλοι ηθελαν να βγουμε απο το Ευρω οπως βαρουφακης,αν ο τυπος διαπραγματευοταν με τετοιο σκεπτικο δεν ειχαμε ελπιδα εξ'αρχης.
Overarching_Chaos@reddit
Δεν έχει να κάνει με αριστερή/δεξιά κυβέρνηση. Ίσα ίσα, οι δανειστές θα θεωρούσαν πιο αξιόπιστη δεξιά κυβέρνηση ενδεχομένως.
Τη δεδομένη χρονική στιγμή ήταν πρακτικά αδύνατο να διαπραγματευτείς μια ουσιαστικά καλύτερη συμφωνία. Θα μπορούσε να είναι λίγο καλύτερη αλλά πρακτικά δε θα άλλαζε κατι.
Συν ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ βγήκε με την προεκλογική υπόσχεση ότι θα "σκίσει" μνημόνια, όχι ότι θα θα διαπραγματευτεί ελαφρώς καλύτερους όρους.
New_Parking9991@reddit
ναι ρε φιλε αν ο συριζα αριστερη κυβερνηση δεν μπορουσε να σκισει τα μνημονια, τοτε ποιος αλλος. Εγω μιλαω για τον κοσμο.
Γιατι το τραβηξαν τοσο πολυ αφου εβλεπαν οτι δεν πηγαινε? Ακομη και το δημοψηφισμα τι νοημα ειχε? Δεν χρειαζοτανε να το φτασουνε στα ακρα.
Αφου δεν ητανε διατεθιμενοι να βγουμε απο το ευρω.
Overarching_Chaos@reddit
Κάνεις χωρίς τη μεσολάβηση κάποιου πολύ δυνατού 3ου (πχ ΗΠΑ), που δεν είχε λόγο να μεσολαβήσει. Από στιγμής που υπογράφτηκε το 1ο μνημόνιο, το να μην υπογράψεις τα υπόλοιπα θα σήμαινε ρήξη με τους δανειστές και ενδεχόμενη έξοδος από το ευρώ.
Δεν υπήρχε άλλη εναλλακτική, ο Τσίπρας το αντιλήφθηκε πολύ αργά. Δεν είχε κανείς από το επιτελείο του σχέδιο πέραν του Βαρουφάκη.
Τώρα γτ έκανε ο Τσίπρας το δημοψήφισμα? Το πιο πιθανό είναι ότι ήλπιζε να βγει το "ναι" για να επικαλεστεί τη βούληση του λαού και να βγει από την δύσκολη θέση. Αυτό δεν έγινε, οπότε αναγκάστηκε να κάνει κωλοτουμπα.
LuckyNumber-Bot@reddit
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
^(Click here to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
ibmi_not_as400_kerim@reddit
Again, you're doing the exact same error you did in your previous comment. You're trying to make it sound like he was outstandingly bad and someone else could've done a better job. That's just not the case.
Varoufakis having been bad does not imply that any other person could've done a better job. The fact that he was even enthusiastic to take on the role was insane to me. There was virtually nothing he could've done. People further on the left wanted the government to literally expropriate goods from the people to pay for its debt, his right-wing counterpart suggested some horse shit ideas like selling off islands, while some in the AnCap extremes wanted the government to straight up default.
He did the one thing he could do in his position without turning Greece into the Aegean version of Somalia: Bluff out of his ass
New_Parking9991@reddit
I am telling the truth as someone that lived through the crisis, so i know what is like to feel hungry waiting in line in ATM and worrying what will happen.
Varoufakis was supposed to negotiate instead he tried to bluff(according to him he was willing to go through it and enter drachma,something he and his goverment were not voted for) he failed miserably and because of his tactics we got worse terms on the memorandums(this is a fact,not a personal opinion) we entered capital controls(which we wouldnt if not for the tsipras goverment) and it took us back quite a few years.
This is simply false and not true at all. The deal Tsipras goverment signed was a worse version of what was established before the negotiation. And then the goverment went on and applied the agreement 110%.
Your comment is misleading,not true ,you are either doing it on purpose or you are simply ignorant.
Varoufakis took a bad situation and made it even worse, this is what happened and my comment communicates.
This is well established and easy to see.
Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit
“Feel hungry waiting in the ATM line”.
You could use credit card to buy things with no credit limit imposed OR interbank transactions, again no credit limit OR you could withraw €420 PER WEEK in cash which at that point was more than half the salary of a minimum wage worker and the majority of Greeks
So you are talking bullshit.
New_Parking9991@reddit
small bussinesses that were mostly affected ended up delaying salaries or paying in installments(not sure for english word). Alot of locals other than supermarket etc.. still accepted mostly cash.
The lines in atms were huge especially the first few weeks when banks were closed.
I lived through the crisis in thessaloniki at that time the only job i could find was in a (βιοτεχνια ρουχων στην καλαμαρια?) not sure the english word,the dude that owned the place ended up closing later on and most of us were left without being paid in full.
I can remember clearly how it feels waiting in line for hours to get money to get by knowing you will have to skip meal.
This was a reality during the greek crisis.
Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit
So you were lying. Waiting in line for cash was your choice and skipping the meal was the consequence of this choice. You could use the debit card the bank gives (as I did and so many others) but you decided to go and wait like a muppet.
The dude didn’t pay you because he didn’t give a fuck about you. Not because of capital controls.
The situation was bleak because of the economy but bullshiting is not it.
The lines were because of panic. Not because you couldn’t live with €420 weekly limit.
New_Parking9991@reddit
I had to wait in line because i needed cash for everyday life,not everyone accepted credit card.
Skipping meal was because the place i worked at the time did not pay in time or paid in installments. The unemployment at the time was very high so it was not easy to say no and find other place work.
Alot of small bussinesses were affected by capital controls. And they were another shock in an economy that was already struggling.
The one that is bullshitting is you at this point dont you think.
Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit
Again you lie.
None, and I mean none, in my family and people I know, including me, had to rush for cash. We used cards for supermarkets and clothes. That’s a fact. So you needed cash for everyday life is a pure lie.
Business who refused to accept cards because they didn’t want to declare all the income were fucked. Any other business who changed to card survived the capital.
How many business closures you think Greece had 2015-19 and how many 2020-25. Take a wild guess.
New_Parking9991@reddit
Doctors,plumbers,car mechanics and many more. Even rent some did not accept payment through bank. This was pretty common.
I dont need to take a wild guess because it means nothing, you trying to compare shows you are simply bullshitting.
Now go look unemployment numbers,ask people outside of your circle the condition of local bussineses how people were paid at the time and more.
The fact that you used above the argument of it being a choice,when you had sky rocket unemployment says alot.
Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit
“I dont want to guess business closures because I will look like a fucking clown”. That’s the correct response.
Unemployment, interesting that you asked. Let’s see:
2012: 24.7
2013: 27.7
2014: 26.7
CAPITAL CONTROLS
2015: 25
2016: 23.5
2017: 21.4
2018: 19.2
2019: 17
END OF CAPITAL CONTROLS
2020: 15.9
2021: 14.7
2022: 12.4
2023: 11
2024: 10
2025: 8.5
Fall in unemployment with capital controls: 8% difference.
Fall in unemployment without capital controls: 7.5% difference
So, according to your one brain cell, because unemployment was falling during 2015–19 the same rate as of now; we were good back then and capital controls helped us employee more people. Brilliant.
New_Parking9991@reddit
I have no problem to be offensive especially when someone argues in bad faith. I guess alot live in a bubble and its hard to see out of it. I stand by my reply, one that you do not really adress.
2015 : 25% , 2025 8.5%
You are almost getting there.
Now try google about how you would get paid, and what ''choice'' you had.
Then following that, tell me what consequences capital controls had for our economy and if they helped or not.
I only have one braincell, i am a muppet since you are not any of these things please let me know.
Also just one quote from your comment to make it clear :
If you are arguing in bad faith just say so, it is clear from my very first comment that i did not skip meal because i waited all day to draw from ATM, if you read my commments and got this, then that is wild (i am not sure what words i can use and if i will get banned) its pretty obvious the reason i skipped meal is because the money were not enough and the reason i worked for said place is because i had no other ''choice''. And this is something that alot of people had to go through.
I know it might be hard for you,because you and your circle got all the braincells in Greece. But for some of us stupid people that could not choose well paying job or doctor that took credit card or landlord that was legit etc....capital controls was an uneccesary hit that made a bad situation worse.
I now understand re-reading the comment how ridiculous your opinion and the reading of my coments is.
Vivid_Philosopher304@reddit
You said:
“Feel hungry waiting in the ATM line”
It clearly implies you had no money to eat because of the capital controls. I asked you why you didn’t buy with a debit card.
Then you changed it to
“Waiting in line so you have to skip a meal”
So you were hungry because you decided to rush the first week to withdraw money. That’s a choice.
Which you finally said
“Well, my boss wasn’t paying me on time so i was hungry.”
Get your story straight.
New_Parking9991@reddit
It clearly means being hungry in ATM line.
no I literally explained what i meant :
None of the above were my choices btw. I described how the crisis once capital controls were in effect found me. My experience.
My comment and story is clear,also after my second comment to you should have been obvious.
You are arguing in bad faith,and for someone that accuses others of having one braincell you seem to be missing some. No offence but you started being offensive.
What i mean is clear, and obviously i would have to be crazy to stay hungry because i waited too long on ATM line.
You also accused me of lie and many other things reading through the replies again make no sense.
English not my first language but after my second quote it should be more than obvious,it does not justify some words you used,so take your braincell and shove it up your credit card paying arse.
Temporary-Check-1507@reddit
The first mnemonium (bail) came in 2010 under the administration of George Papandreou. It involved a 110€ euro loan from the Eu with various bad terms
The second was under a provisional government and it had even worse terms
But all these terms were mostly aimed at citizens not businesses
The third one was under Varoufakis and gave us Capital controls. This mostly bunkrupted several businesses. I just want to clarify that after 5 years there was progress being made and then a shotgun to the face was presented by Schauble and Merke because of his incompetence.
The first 2 bails started working and then this madman thought "giving money" again to anyone and everyone would fly with the germans
-MrAnderson@reddit
No he isn't; Greece had - and still has - the same structural issues, yes; but he was outstandingly bad.
There are catastrophic events that happened on top of our ordinary overspending, corruption-filled, overblown central government that are a director consequence of his policies.
Worst of all though, is that he put the final nail in the coffin of the image of Greece and Greeks in Europe. I've never felt more humiliated than watching respectable EU officials like Dijsselbloem being dragged from meeting to meeting to get lectured by a colourfully-dressed narcissist, who couldn't even follow protocol on where to wear a damn suit.
You are the one asking for money, dumbass!, should be something any reasonable human sees as his position at the "negotiations". Apparently, not Yannis.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Our economy was in toilet and he flush the toilet.He said also to discontinue the Hellenic army and if invade us or in a war we would make a lot of calls to other countries to fight for us
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
It was on Tsipras rather than Varoufakis, as he wanted to go along accordingly to the referendum results, and push the EU core to the corner as their banks would be suffering. Syriza government, sans Varoufakis, were expecting a defeat and they didn't know what to do when they won the referendum, and then sidelined the popular will & settled down for worse terms. We can debate if Varoufakis was a good negotiator or not, but he wasn't the person who caved in.
New_Parking9991@reddit
the problem with Tsipras is that there was never (According to him) the case of exiting Euro.
Yes or No was not about staying in the Eurozone(thats what Tsipras and how it was sold to the public).
Whether varoufakis failed or not, you are judged by the result and he turned out not to be a good finance minister according to results.
Also note these people were never voted to flirt with exiting Euro, the fact that alot of them were willing to do so ,just shows how insincere and dangerous they were.
Lothronion@reddit
At least we got an epic song out of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afl9WFGJE0M
abki12c@reddit
i prefer this
Atvaaa@reddit
that crowd is stone cold
abki12c@reddit
Because it's Russians
ImmediateFee4015@reddit
Imagine speaking facts and being downvoted
tin_mama_sou@reddit
He is not speaking the truth. He is an absolute bullshiter of the worst kind
-who_am-i_@reddit
You are a brainwashed fool for thinking that. They threw all the mud on him that they could find and idiots like you believed the propaganda. Varoufakis is the only politician staying true to his beliefs.
tin_mama_sou@reddit
Who is they? I was in greece, he fucked us over. You have no clue what you are talking about.
He was the worst minister if finance we have ever had.
-who_am-i_@reddit
That bullshit is what the rightwing brainwashed you to believe
RossMxx@reddit
Varoufakis is a complete moron that no one takes seryin Greece.
-who_am-i_@reddit
You are a brainwashed fool for thinking that. They threw all the mud on him that they could find and idiots like you believed the propaganda. Varoufakis is the only politician staying true to his beliefs. You have no single argument against him because he is right in everything he says and the only thing you have to say is "mimimi he is a narcissist for showing us his house"
RossMxx@reddit
Yeye, we are all idiots apart from the 2% that believes all the crap he says in his paid appearances.
0xPianist@reddit
What is the exact point made here? And how old is this statement?
Israel is a consistent defence partner in the region for Greece 👉
Critics typically have only banal statements about Gaza and world peace. And largely don’t understand the regional geopolitics or live in hippies land.
Greece has a chronic border dispute with Turkey which will not get resolved anytime soon.
And Israel is a key partner in regional stability.
If anyone can dictate policy to Israel feel free to go do it.
In east med your neighbours is not Portugal, France or Albania 👉
doctorpoios@reddit
Who ever wants this miserable jerk to rule his country we give him away for free guys , since you like him so much and take his words for granted that is
BurgurluGenc031@reddit
hes sayin truth it seems. Same for my country. Erdoğan is handmaiden of Right Wing American politicians.
Exact_Violinist8316@reddit
Imo Erdogan is more a case of keeping as much of the involved parties content so they dont oust his ass, how else will he fill the pockets of his family with generational wealth
Stormy_Phoenix2@reddit
Turkey also does the most amount trade with israel in the region.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
adamgerd@reddit
Damn if Erdogan is considered pro Israel in Turkey, the average Turk must be absolutely cucked to Hamas
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
Erdoğan supporters are naturally getting angry, but from the opposition’s perspective this isn’t surprising.
Trade relations between Israel and Turkey tripled during Erdoğan’s time in power.
During the 2018 election campaign, the race was between the opposition candidate M. İnce and T. Erdoğan. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz wrote that, for Israel’s interests, the best outcome would be another Erdoğan victory.
The truth is that the Erdoğan family has a very large fortune, and part of this wealth comes from maritime trade. In recent years, some opposition journalists revealed that while Erdoğan was saying at rallies, “We have cut all trade with Israel,” ships belonging to his son were still making trips to Israeli ports. LOL.
Severe_Science9309@reddit
You do realize Haaretz is a ultra left wing publication that the majority of Israeli society despise and only the outside world take them seriously right its like me saying CNN Turk is what Turks actually believes and think. Erdogan is just very shrewd and pragmatic
candlebox71@reddit
The entire world is a handmaiden of USA. If all countries could mutually arrange to close their air, sea and land to the US of A, then stop exchanging vital intelligence information with the USanians and slowly get rid of their bases, the entire world would finally rest. No USAnians in our lands, no USAnian bases, no USAnian influence on governments and people, no USAnian interests to care for. They would have to eventually stick to their own land, limited to fly and sail around their own air and waters, unlike the free pass, free entry, free exit they have now in most of the world. Countries around the world do not need USA or any other tyrant superpower. These imperialists only become strong, when we allow them to control us...
ibmi_not_as400_kerim@reddit
It's always the strongman right-wingers that pretend to be all tough, who are in the end the biggest ass kissers and boot lickers.
zoewithalab@reddit
The amount of the time they talk about Turkey as a threat on their national TV vs Turkey talks about Greece in their national TV is disproportionate. People who govern Greece try to create a false narrative to serve their own interests. I’ve been to Greece many times. Give your people job opportunities, schools, most importantly A LIVEABLE WAGE. Why are you running to be an any other country’s (but especially an aggressor one’s) pawn? Why? Turkey is no threat to you, government should make policies to fix economy, not deliver delusions and mislead its own people.
Savings_Dragonfly806@reddit
Turkish jet fighters constantly invade Greek airspace, that doesn't sound like a threat?
Or how they claim our islands as theirs with their Blue Homeland bs.
zoewithalab@reddit
Honestly, what I’m saying is force your government to improve your daily lives, not create false enemies. Invading Greece was never in the cards for any government in Turkey, the public also has no interest. Public memory has enough war memories they don’t need any. Government wouldn’t do something like that when there’s no people’s support behind it. Unless jet fighters openly bombing you, there’s no threat. We also have heard many times Greek jets in our airspace, it’s normal the countries are so close. No one cared. Why the paranoia? Israel is not your friend, like the US is not Turkey’s friend. Both countries should reject being their pawns. We can and WE WILL live in peace! Your government makes up enemies instead of focusing on bettering Greek people’s lives. Don’t let any fucking politicians deceive you. No one wants a war with Greece in Turkey.
Savings_Dragonfly806@reddit
You don't understand. We aren't purposely creating enemies with your country. YOUR country made itself into an enemy of Greece. You have made many threats to invade our islands because you think they should belong to you because of close proximity. Speaking of which, close proximity between countries is not an excuse for airspace violations. I mean many land connected countries don't violate each other's airspace. Why? Because they are rational enough to recognize each other's airspace. Meanwhile you just outright ignore their existence. Just like you said how governments don't represent their people, I don't believe Israel is our friend. Matter of fact I hate how we just let them use our airspace and air bases so they can practice war crimes. I also hate how our government made it very easy for them to buy out houses here and convert them into Airbnb's. I mean that problem isn't specific, but it still sucks.
Next_League6403@reddit
I think Israel managed to take over greece just like they did with the united states and western europe.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
What's with the constant Varoufakis posting in this sub? The guy was in power for 6 months and he's depicted as this important person.
forlackofinspiration@reddit
His position as finance minister is mostly irrelevant to why he is invited at all these programs, podcasts, conferences etc.
He was invited to such things even before he became a minister and he is invited after that.
As to why this happens there could be a number of reasons.
Maybe it is because he makes "numbers". Because for whatever reason when he is a guest somewhere an audience follows.
Or maybe he is invited because he has fresh ideas, he has accurate analysis of the current economic and political situation, maybe because he doesn't regurgitate the same things others say or maybe because he is very articulate and knowledgeable.
Take your pick.
Top_Percentage_905@reddit
He is one of the few that dares speak truth, and is widely heard.
This makes him a more important person then most other 'important' politicians in Europe. Most of whom are little more then political prostitutes.
cafesolitito@reddit
He's the type of leftist that is very good at making the certain noises and catch phrases that internet leftist in places like Reddit, or left-leaning college educated people love to hear.
I'm not saying what he says is wrong (I do disagree with him at times) but it's a sort of "he's really good at telling people what they like to hear"
He's really good at using all of the buzz words in a well-spoken, lovely Greek accent and people then nod their heads and want more (imperialism, colonialism, global south, evil empire, etc)
-who_am-i_@reddit
Could you guys for once use a real argument against him? Like about what he is saying and not about how he is saying eg
cafesolitito@reddit
I disagree with the typical leftist framing of “evil capitalist/imperialist global north vs global south” approach
RossMxx@reddit
It's simple, the sub is Turkish-run, so they have every interest in posting what that moron says.
-who_am-i_@reddit
Not a single argument against him
RossMxx@reddit
I could easily defeat almost every single of his arguments, but I've already wasted enough time replied to idiots on Reddit for no reward.
-who_am-i_@reddit
That sounds like someone who doesn't have A SINGLE ARGUMENT AGAINST HIM
RossMxx@reddit
No, it's sounds like someone who's tired of debating with idiots.
Fatalaros@reddit
He is important, Maybe for you Greece is the universe, but internationaly he is a well known economist, author and representative of leftist economic thought.
Stormrage44@reddit
He really has some sharp economic views but I keep them reserved just in any case. I think everybody should learn and be aware of his kind of aspects even if they find it irrational.
Lothronion@reddit
Given his achievements in politics, if you had him as your Finance Minister for a couple of months, you will be hearing the word "Erdoganomics" and cry out of nostalgia.
candlebox71@reddit
I am not supporting Varoufakis, I never was a fan of his. But this is not accurate. If by
"achievements" you mean the time he spent in the MOF, then we simply did not get to see where he would lead us.
If you are talking about his party, it is not easy for any newly established party to sneak in between the political establishment. People are greatly addicted into voting the same scoundrels over and over.
spawn139@reddit
Have you seen ours mate? Mehmet Şimşek the magnificent
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Except the questions are always directed to Greeks and not in a general audience. It gets tiresome after a while.
I know you personally is a leftist and probably a big Varoufakis fanboy, because I have seen your comments, but please, realize this isn't a tankie sub.
Fatalaros@reddit
Yes because he recently gave an interview with Piers Morgan. That's why I told you that Greece is your little bubble.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
So Piers Morgan is a person of value now for the left? Lmao.
But it's not a surprise that one grifter goes to another grifter. If anyone here lives in a bubble is you. Let's see if Diem25 will win any seats in the European parliament next elections, since according to you he is relevant abroad.
StreetYak6590@reddit
What’s the grift? Opposing US hegemony and Israel is grifting now?
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Every time he is invited to speak at some conference or podcast or TV channel, he gets a cut. He also sells books he writes so the exposure and marketing benefits him.
It's a grift, after all the guy has no seat in the Greek parliament because he fails to get votes.
-who_am-i_@reddit
Not a single argument against him like always. "He writes books" like it's a bad thing. Lots of politicians do and he is a renowned economist. But you probably prefer adonis or velopoulos selling Jesus's diaries and pseudomedical creams on teleshopping
LegalizeCatnip1@reddit
Writing books about the evonomic order is a grift if you’re not in parliament? Thats a new one.
ADRzs@reddit
Varoufakis is, beyond his brief experience in power, a noted economist, the leader of a pan-European party and a successful author. So, he has a voice!
The problem with Varoufakis is that he is great with analysis but extremely poor in proposing solutions to the problems that he identifies. And this is the reason his party is polling so poorly in Greece. He used his time in Parliament to accurately identify problems but he offered no solutions that were either practical or possible.
-who_am-i_@reddit
That's not true. He gives solutions all the time. his party is polling poor because of the smear campaign against him
TheMidnightBear@reddit
With zero representatives at literally any parliamentary level, lol.
I too can complain about society's problems, but have no idea how to solve them, or even propose solutions that make things worse, lol.
userrr3@reddit
The real joke is that far right parties do exactly that and win elections, with some (not all of course) of the problems they complain about even being made up or exaggerated. Yet someone from the left like Varoufakis does it and they get no seats at any level. Gotta "love" that...
stefbellos00@reddit
That's so false, he was the most active politician I've seen in proposing solutions, that's literally all he did, you can go back and look it up. But this doesn't matter, nobody in government is looking for solutions from another party.
dragonbab@reddit
He helped Valve do a real important calc on one of their games. That's an accolade worth more than being a minister.
Few-Interview-1996@reddit
Whether or not you agree with him, he's a more entertaining speaker, and probably sharper, than most politicians who have stayed in power for ten times six months.
Several-Zombies6547@reddit
I've noticed that Turks have been pushing Varoufakis in Twitter as well, because he always portrays Greece as a puppet of Israel, just like Turkish propagandists often depict us.
RegularGap6642@reddit
The majority of Greek people aren’t aware of 1) Israeli actions and 2) the history of the Palestinian case. Therefore, unfortunately, many Greeks do not have a well-structured opinion on the pros and cons of having close relations with Israel. Those Greeks who are informed, however, are often very unhappy with the close relations that this government has established with Israel.
Ok-Bug-6923@reddit
Anyone know the name of the deal he’s supposedly talking about? Tried searching for what he’s describing on Google and AI and cannot find any such deal which gives Israel blanket access to Greek airspace.
Lovescrossdrilling@reddit
https://www.tovima.gr/2015/07/22/politics/se-entypwsiako-bathmo-i-synergasia-elladas-israil/
Τhis is a link from a greek newspaper/site from 2015 , when the deal was signed. Use a translator to get the gist.
Ok-Bug-6923@reddit
This article doesn’t describe at all what the person in the video is saying though. In fact it describes the exact opposite, explicitly describing a legal framework and set of permissions required for military exercises.
mikewazoski59@reddit
Greece is signing off on a history it will one day be ashamed of by blindly supporting Israel.
semicolondenier@reddit
I am feeling ashamed as I'm writing this comment, what do you mean by "one day" lol
BeeUnfair4086@reddit
One day? I am ashamed for the last couple of years.
mikewazoski59@reddit
I feel truly sorry for greece regarding this policy you’re being subjected to such a negative perception
ADRzs@reddit
Come on...this is ridiculous. Criticism of Israel can almost get you to prison in major EU countries like the UK or Germany and it is Greece that gets the bad press???? Please!!!
mikewazoski59@reddit
Who told you that's right? In my opinion, this situation doesn't suit the greek image.
ADRzs@reddit
Wow, what is particularly the Greek image??? In any case, based on the antagonism between Turkey and Greece on so many key issues, it makes perfect sense for Greece to utilize all possible alliances to support its cause. I dislike Israeli policies as much as you do, but sometime the "devil" can be useful.
mikewazoski59@reddit
You ve lost your mind. Even the devil wouldnt do what Israel does. Have some conscience.
ADRzs@reddit
Well, this is debatable. Sure, the Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians. It is an apartheid state that exceeds in ferocity that of South Africa. But this is not something that Greece can solve. Put some pressure on France, Germany and the UK to do something on a European level before getting on with Greece.
mikewazoski59@reddit
A few token arab judges dont fix the reality of a systemic occupation and apartheid for millions of others
Lothronion@reddit
You mean the rest of the 2 million Israeli Arabs that vote in elections, and can be voted as politicians in the Knesset? Or those who can join the IDF and contribute in defending their homes, which are also being bombed each time Gazans, Hezbollah and Iranians are bombing those of the Israeli Jews?
Damaged_DM@reddit
Fun fact, there are currently more Arab Muslim soldiers than ultra orthodox ones
Severe_Science9309@reddit
I mean the ultra orthodox lives in an entirely different world the arab are more integrated into Israeli society than them
mikewazoski59@reddit
Hi ChatGPT, should I shove my d*ck in your eye?
Damaged_DM@reddit
What are you talking about. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians it is a weekend operation. Instead 200k bombs dropped on Gaza over 2 years kill 70k people. Do you think the pilots hitting targets in Iran are somehow missing in Gaza?
Moreover it is not (yet) an apartheid state. Palestinians don't have rights since they are not citizens. Arab Israelis have full rights.
Lothronion@reddit
False. There are 2 million Palestinian Arabs living in Israel, which are Israeli Citizens, they can elect and be elected, become politicians, become judges, become lawyers, become soldiers, become entrepreneurs et cetera. There was even an Israeli Arab Palestinian judge that took place in the three-judge trial of a former Israeli Prime Minister, where along with the two Jewish Israelis he condemned him to prison for sex offends and attempted rape.
Also false. The definition of Apartheid in international law makes it clear that it refers to the situation within a state's sovereign territory, so here it would only refer to the Israeli Arab Palestinians, those who are Israeli Citizens. The above description makes it clear that they are not legally separated and discriminated, as part of segregation laws in their legal system. The situation in the West Bank, often wrongly described as Apartheid, is in fact a military occupation, so outside of Israel, as it is not even Israeli sovereign territory. And of course the inhabitant of an occupied territory does not have the same legal rights with citizens of the occupying party, nobody on the planet practices the opposite.
aa1898@reddit
The fallacy here is that Israel keeps settling more and more Israeli Jews into the West Bank, and magically these people do happen to keep the same legal rights while also becoming inhabitants of the West Bank. A growing population in the West Bank has full Israeli citizenship and maintain all the rights and protection that they would in Israel. Throw up all the semi interesting legal smokescreens you want; even Israeli human rights organisations are calling out the apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide by now. The nearly 60 year occupation is exactly the vehicle of all this, not an acquittal.
Lothronion@reddit
I actually agree, in the case of Israel annexing this territory and failing to give Israeli citizenship to the Arabs there.
This is textbook appeal to authority, the ad verecundiam logical fallacy.
adamgerd@reddit
You’re right the devil wouldn’t defend himself against terrorists because he’s already torturing them
barakisan@reddit
Tbf even the devil would think it's too evil to bow to Israel like Czechia does
sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit
And this one here, my friends, is a bloodlusted, delusional clown who is blinded with hatred against Turkiye so much that he even supports allying themselves with israel. Pathetic.
BeeUnfair4086@reddit
And if you are in power and say something against Israel you immediately lose your position. W heave been infiltrated by Israel, like Germany and many other EU members.
kulamsharloot@reddit
WanaxAndreas@reddit
r/2Mediterranean4u is that way
Areyoucunt@reddit
The criticizing that gets you in jail in UK is absolutely not about Israel lol... Look at all the cases, it is almost always people who criticize immigrants, PC, government spending or other such cases, nothing to do with Israel
ADRzs@reddit
I think that we need to re-appraise issues here. Yes, the support of Israel by Greece is odious, but it makes little to no difference overall in the standing of Israel. If the major EU countries are not willing to do anything in particular, it would be silly for Greece to incite US enmity by open criticism for Israel. At least, in Greece, the people are allowed to demostrate against Israeli policies. One likely ends up in prison doing the same in the UK or in Germany.
On the other hand, a Greece-Cyprus-Israel axis is one that no Greek politician is willing to ignore. And as long as there is a strong antagonism with Turkey on virtually anything, this axis is extremely useful for Greece.
KushBerry55@reddit
It actually makes a lot of difference.
We’re allowing US/Israeli to refuel and train here. US has a lot of military bases and equipment here, and it’s a great geographical advantage to have a place where they can regroup, train and refuel when you’re so far away from your country.
Plus, as we’ve seen by somewhat recent events (drone strikes at Crete and Cyprus) you become a target.
adamgerd@reddit
Why would Greece have to be ashamed of standing on the right side of history? Against Islamists
adamgerd@reddit
Some day you’ll be ashamed of blindly supporting Palestine
KushBerry55@reddit
It all circles around. We’ve been cucked for decades by the US. The US is being cucked/blackmailed by Israel.
When you have one of the most dishonest and corrupt government and without any backbone, it’s only a natural consequence of supporting genocide. Don’t forget that our government, especially the current one will be remembered as probably the worst, selling out the country, stealing European funds, taxes and overall we are talking about total corruption, 0 justice system, mafia like assassinations and propaganda.
Be sure that a vast majority doesn’t support this. This summer alone there were protests all over the country.
antonislak@reddit
The greeks that support Israel is the minority trust me, II have people from left, center and right ideologies (with common sense) that all despize Jewish supremacy and zionism.
Iran stands for world's freedom right now and even though i watch them fight from the comfort of my couch i know that we might soon be in a similar position.
PaceZealousideal2807@reddit
well Romania seems to be poppet for US air forces right now while real European countries refused
dio_dim@reddit
Comparing the governing Party of Greece to Farage shows that Varoufakis has little in common with reality. Farage is foremost anti-European and pro Russian and then everything else.
candlebox71@reddit
The Greek governments are also anti-European. They despise every small or big thing they have to do, when forced from the EU. This is why citizens in Greece suffer in the hands of their governments.
At the same time, I am not saying EU is proper. EU is far from proper. The EU cares more about finances, international relations and how to please the USAnians and much less for the prosperity and safety of it's own citizens.
dio_dim@reddit
BS
foodforkitties@reddit
Thessaloniki has a deep Jewish history, and for many recent years it’s been a hot tourist destination for Israelis. By now, many own their own apartments, businesses, hotels, etc. In other places too I assume. Greeks, we sell off our country’s assets on our own, never mind waiting for the government to do it. Varoufakis speaks profanities, the plain reality is that Greece has failed as a state and everyone just wants to sell at the best price they can get. Is it Israel this time? Sure. Ethics is not a thing in the jungle.
BrownShoesGreenCoat@reddit
This guy is not “Greek people”
Moooooooola@reddit
My neighbor visited Greece last year and said it was wall to wall Israelis at the airport. Someone must have told them Greece was promised to them 3000 years ago too.
godswrath1@reddit
Amazing joke. Did you come up with it yourself?
adamgerd@reddit
That would require originality
godswrath1@reddit
Yes, I was being sarcastic.
ekokoo@reddit
70 80s playbook all over again
Busternookiedude@reddit
From what I've seen, Greeks are pretty split on it. Some see Israel as a natural ally against Turkey, others feel uneasy about Palestine
PaintSad8795@reddit
Mr. Varoufakis is a jewel for Greece and all Balkans. I don't understand why public doesn't support him.
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
It helps Greece to not get "accidentally" attacked by ISIS.
Successful-Biggy@reddit
It turns Greece into the promised lands man... be careful...
Greekdorifuto@reddit
How?
WanaxAndreas@reddit
Take a stroll through monastiraki , infact an Israeli burger place opened pretty close to the station
Greekdorifuto@reddit
And? Would you have said the same if they were American?
WanaxAndreas@reddit
Context matters , Especially with what's going on the last year's.
Greekdorifuto@reddit
Did you say the same when the US invaded Iraq in 2003 and Afghanistan in 2001?
WanaxAndreas@reddit
Second whataboutism in a row.
Peace out👍
Greekdorifuto@reddit
Its not whataboutism since I didn't try to deflect. What I am asking you is why dont you act the same about other countries who do the same things?
Successful-Biggy@reddit
How ? Don't you read the news which is saying 'Greece is new safe heaven for Israelis' ? Are you aware of land/home ownership of Israelis in Cyprus ?
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
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AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
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crogameri@reddit
ISIS literally apologized to Israel when they fired at them, why do you think Israel would help Greece against ISIS thousands of kilometers from home when they don't even do it in their own backyard
LegalizeCatnip1@reddit
Just like it helped the Gulf states to not get attacked by Iran, right?
Acceptable-Sense-256@reddit
Just like it helped the gulf countries not to get attacked by the CIA
This_Lion5856@reddit
Thats until Israelis buy up enough land in Cyprus and declare they need it for security reasons.
Given how they have acted with any single country around them, it is just a matter of time
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
If it annoys the turks then it's effective already.
EvilInGood@reddit
We aren't annoyed, we are neutral about Israel.
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
EvilInGood@reddit
It's not a big deal for us lol, everyone has already known Greece and Israel are allies. Changes nothing for us
Active_Unit_9498@reddit
Yes, and it's not like Turks and Arabs have some long love affair to curate.
EvilInGood@reddit
"Turks and Arabs"? That's not how politics work. There are many Arab countries. Some have good relations with Turkey, some not. Some don't even get along with each other. The way you oversimplify things tell how little you know about Turkey.
Significant_Judge008@reddit
Exactly, these people look at our relations with Syria during the civil war era and think we have shaky relations with everyone in the region
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
You also had relations with the Russians.
EvilInGood@reddit
We have both relations with USA and Russia. USA is a necessary ally overall and since we are one Georgia away from Russia and if you exclude Abkhazia, we can't be hostile towards Russia when they are huge. It would be a geopolitical mess.
Significant_Judge008@reddit
We still do, but they’re not as friendly compared to other countries
BroSchrednei@reddit
This is "own the libs" levels of pathetic.
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
Hypocrisy is pathetic too.
BroSchrednei@reddit
Lol what hypocrisy?
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
The turks themselves were great buddies with the Russians, don't you know?
VisibleReport5008@reddit
we arent in the eu but still sold ukraine a lot of drones and weapons I dont think russia likes us these days
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
As I remember you didn't sanction Russia like the rest and Turkey announced that it had submitted a request to join the BRICS, this was back in 2024, I am sure there are more happening behind the scenes but so far I don't see Russia to have anything negative to say about Turkey, but as far as it goes the relationship is similar to that of a normal couple, there will be disagreements but in the end they still like each other.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
why should we sanction? We arent in EU so we arent obligated to their things. Not the mention how greek shadow fleet helped distributing russion oil since the war
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
First of all, why should you trade with Russia in the first place? Everyone sanctions them reasonably, pretty hypocritical when it comes to the response Turkey had against Israel when it came to the Palestinians. Second, the so called greek shadow fleet you say was done by greek ship owners, they were done in secret and illegally the greek government was not responsible here because the fleet you say was controlled by private shipowners.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
if it was done secretly and illegal it is kinda the greek goverments fault. And talking about trade with russia? EU had the largest trade surplus of 1.5 billion dung the war since 2002. And buying gas from china? Basically buying russian gas for more expensive.
TankerDerrick1999@reddit
First of all no it is not our fault because they were private shipowners that did it so the government and the country is not at fault here, second of all the trade with Russia is still limited, heavily sanctioned, and much reduced and the war started in 2022 if you think the deficit went from 110 billion in 2021 to 0-5 billion in 2024, also China does not export gas to the EU as i am aware so far.
Puzzled-Leader1@reddit
Siding with the world’s biggest pariah state that has been found guilty of actively committing a genocide because it annoys Turks?
Greece siding with Israel makes Turkey look better optically on a global level, if you think Turks are annoyed youre wrong. Disappointed? Maybe some, but why would nationalist Turks be upset over Greeks deciding to cut off their noses to spite their face?
abki12c@reddit
You should be the last to talk about genocide given not only the three major known genocides your country has commited but also the active genocide the Turkish army is commiting against the Kurdish population (which according to comment of Turks here they seem to support it)
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
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Lothronion@reddit
Greece is not siding with North Korea.
North Korea has not committed a genocide yet.
As for Israel, stating that they have been "found guilty of actively committing a genocide" is quite a stretch, given how it has not been conclusively determined yet by the political scientists studying this topic. You are invoking authority, but even these academic authorities do not agree on this matter. For example, take this graph from the Wikipedia article on the topic: only 46% deem it a genocide, while the rest, being 54%, so more than half, do not. Sure, 36% say that what is going on is "Major war crimes akin to genocide", but there is no "akin to genocide", either there is genocidal intent, or there is not, there is no "half-genocide" through "half genocidal intent" (either one wants to kill someone for no other reason than being what they are, or not, there is no half killing).
Ultimately, it will take years to determine whether it was a genocide or not, once sufficient information has been gathered on internal Israeli military communication (to see if orders were given with genocidal intent), as well as conflict epidemiology (to see if the count of the dead matches what one would expect if the killing was done with genocidal intent), since scientific research takes years to evaluate all available information and come to a conclusion (like how the Iraq War death toll was conclusively determined a decade later). Unfortunately, given that currently the situation is almost a 50-50 split among academics, it would take a while, if it was 70-30 on either side we could say things with much greater certainty.
Then again, if we are talking about academic consensus on genocides, Turkey does not have a good record in recognizing them, such as the well-known Greek Genocide of 1913-1923, so it should not throw rocks when its house is made of glass.
The_Zionist_Enemy@reddit
Such a based reply, sweet mother of god.
We are genociding so hard the Palestinian population is booming.
Lothronion@reddit
Well, to be fair, I am not exactly arguing that there is not a genocide, just that what the Turkish user above said, his appeal to authority that there is one with absolute certainty, simply does not stand up to scrutiny, as not even academic authorities can agree on the matter, but are almost evenly split. And to appeal to authority right now would be naïve, not only since political science requires years of analysis to reach a verdict, but also given how much propaganda there is, from both sides. For example, the Palestinian delegates in UN accused Israel of genocide in Gaza in the 11th of October 2023, when Israel had not even yet fully managed to expel all Hamas fighters from its territory, so, since they had not yet achieved restoring sole effective rule on their own sovereign land, there were no Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip.
If I were to argue the above, I would be focusing on other things, like conflict epidemiology.
I am not sure your demographic argument is very good, since genocide is about intent, and theoretically Israel could have had the intent but decided to conceal it by using more covert means, as opposed to just carpet bombing the Gaza Strip (which would mean hundreds of thousands of dead), so to present it as a mere demographic decline, but still failing to do so effectively. Of course, though, that is extremely unlikely to be the case.
Le_Fish_In_Lava@reddit
tl;dr : hes a fascist standing with israel and uses excuses to do so
Lothronion@reddit
Sure, name-calling is a common smokescreen to cover the lack of counter arguments. Which is why it is a logical fallacy, ad hominem.
Le_Fish_In_Lava@reddit
okay chatgpt
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
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Punkmo16@reddit
For you to emphasize what you saying is like a Turkish person cheering for Nazi Germany invading Greece. You guys seem to be willing to sell your souls to devil as long as it pisses off the Turks.
Present-Image-90@reddit
Israel, Greece and Cyprus need to defend themselves, so they collaborate. Wow, what a shocking surprise.
crogameri@reddit
Greeks in Cyprus are literally on the front lines of war now because Greece's 'amazing ally' started another illegal war. If I was in the position of the Greeks, I'd be fucking fuming at Israel.
Present-Image-90@reddit
Greeks in Cyprus know well they are better off without Iranian nukes, as the entire region knows, except Iranian proxies and Turks.
crogameri@reddit
Iran acquiring nuclear weapons is exclusively the fault of the countries that broke the Iran deal in the first place. If I was the supreme leader right now I'd be sucking Kim's cock for some nuclear weapons right now because Israel and America will obviously never negotiate.
Present-Image-90@reddit
Really? And why was a deal necessary to begin with? A deal that would have expired and left Iran with greenlight for nukes? The Iranian regime has a vision that needed stopping. Who would do that? Croatia? France? lmao.
crogameri@reddit
The deal was necessary because the west doesn't trust Iran to exercise their right to civilian nuclear technology that they have by international law, which is why Iran granted international observers which by all accounts were doing their job.
Oh yeah because a Syrian refugee crisis x4 is so much fucking better for the continent than protecting Israel's fragile fucking ego. There is currently only one genocidal state in the ME with nuclear bombs, and that's fucking Israel.
adamgerd@reddit
Iran’s destruction is great for all of Europe, and if you can’t see that you’re blind
crogameri@reddit
You realise when you say this type of shit it doesn't give "we're going to free the people of Iran" vibes but more like "were going to butcher schoolchildren" vibes.
They just instated race rased laws that could see Palestinian citizens executed within 90 days of military trial and you still defend that totalitarian shithole.
Present-Image-90@reddit
This reply demonstrates the self deception and cowardness of so many European countries.
Facts: Iran was in systemic violation of international law, leading to the Obama agreement, progressing towards a bomb. In 2003, it was discovered that Iran had been building clandestine nuclear sites (like Natanz and Arak) for 18 years without reporting them. The IAEA formally declared Iran in non-compliance with its safeguards agreement in 2005. Between 2006 and 2010, the UN passed six major resolutions (such as Resolution 1929) ordering Iran to stop all uranium enrichment. Iran ignored these. Furthermore, Intelligence agencies and the IAEA gathered evidence that until 2003 (and in some forms until 2009), Iran had conducted experiments specifically related to weaponization. Even during the deal Iran continued producing massive amounts of long range missiles, although the deal specifically asked not to.
The Syrian refugee crisis you're whining about was actually caused by Iran.. meddling in Syria and sustaining Assad's regime with the help of Hezbollah, bringing death to Syria and the region.
But hey, as long as you can hate on Israel so you can feel good.
crogameri@reddit
Literally all of these could be applied to Israel if anyone cared about applying international law on western satellite states.
Yeah but let's completely forget that the US, Turkey and the rest of the West helped level Syria over the course of that decade.
Do you not hate genocidal states? It seems like a normal thing to do.
KushBerry55@reddit
The people are furious, it just so happens with that the most incompetent and corrupt government.
We held protests all over the country especially during the summer. Protests for Palestine are happening all this time.
And before someone says we haven’t done enough, I suggest to check out how the whole thing with Tempi, from the moment it happened up until now
Successful-Biggy@reddit
Defend from what ? The whole world should defended from Israel. Especially Greece and Cyprus since they are becoming into 'safe heaven' for Israel. They should be careful before turned into a promised lands.
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
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Suhavoda@reddit
Yea, if only someone could come up with a final solution for a certain problem, eh? /s
Frigging wankers everywhere...
Maelystyn@reddit
To all the greeks that are scandalised by your's country's submission to Israel, it is not you it is your elite
qazqaz45@reddit
Ugh, people keep listening to this failure.
-who_am-i_@reddit
Not a single argument against him
qazqaz45@reddit
He didn’t present any solid argument…
Stormrage44@reddit
Even regardless of our rivalry with Greeks and Israel's obvious threat to us, I honestly think of it just sad. Similarly how I think about our relations with Israel (against in just words but in full service). I guess they are desperate for allies.
Dry_Kangaroo7571@reddit
Israel isn’t a threat to Turkey lol
Stormrage44@reddit
Sureee, there is international law and human rights, they can't simply harm anybody in front of everyone right? Oh also it's not Israel's wars U.S. been fighting, on the contrary Israel is helping U.S. in their wars. And it's not like EU are just supporting Israel's right to defend itself from wherever it feels threatened from. That would be almost like they own the leash to everybody. How can they destabilize the middle east since WW1 with terrorists they founded and American interventions? It must have just happened by itself. Greater israel is a bogus they just want a tiny state to live joyfully along their neighbors they do not depend on their superiority...
Dry_Kangaroo7571@reddit
Literally nothing you said makes sense as a reply to me
Stormrage44@reddit
Or you're literally incapable to comprehend
kamSidd@reddit
Former Israeli PM Bennett Warns Turkey Poses A New Threat - i24NEWS
Rofllettuce@reddit
Erdogan openly supports Hamas/Hisbollah and has been threatening Israel ever since hamas declared war on Israel.
He even declared a national day in memorial when one of his Hamas billionaire-friends died.
It gets voters. Its stupid.
Dry_Kangaroo7571@reddit
It’s just all talk, Erdogan and the right wing does the same thing.
Nobody with an actual understanding of geopolitics think they’re a threat to each other.
Turkey is in NATO and has arguably the second most powerful land army in NATO. Israel has nuclear weapons and is closely aligned with the US. There is a massive interest for both sides to not start a conflict with each other.
Also, why would they fight? The “Great Israel” stuff isn’t true and is just demagoguery from right wing extremists in Israel that anti-Israel propaganda just eats up. Israel doesn’t have ambitions on taking Turkish territory.
Even with current hostility, trade is surprisingly strong. Turkish business, including pro-government networks, still profits from trade with Israel.
This thread is dumb. Greece’s strategic alignment is because of geopolitics and nonetheless, they still support Palestinian statehood.
Look at it from Greece’s perspective. You have longstanding tensions with Turkey over the Aegean Sea, airspace and Cyprus that have become to feel very threatening. Israel’s relationship with Turkey deteriorated since 7 October meaning that Greece and Israel have found themselves on the same side strategically. Israel has discovered major gas fields (e.g. Leviathan) and Greece wants to be an energy gateway into Europe which would bypass the Turkish energy route. Greece benefits from Israel’s advanced tech and combat experience, while Israel benefits from access to Greek airspace and Mediterranean positioning
bipolar1_baby325@reddit
I love Varoufakis 🥰
forwheels@reddit
Can you stop posting this guy every day.?. It will only be beneficial for your economy
-who_am-i_@reddit
You prefer seeing trump everyday? He makes very good points that the right doesn't like to hear
forwheels@reddit
Neither the left and neither him when he was in the government. Talk is good but economic theories and stories are good only when can be used in practice. Good points are being made even by trump but good points are not enough to support him
Dry_Kangaroo7571@reddit
It’s just all talk, Erdogan and the right wing does the same thing.
Nobody with an actual understanding of geopolitics think they’re a military threat to each other, other than being rivals.
Turkey is in NATO and has arguably the second most powerful land army in NATO. Israel has nuclear weapons and is closely aligned with the US. There is a massive interest for both sides to not start a conflict with each other.
Also, why would they fight? The “Greater Israel” stuff isn’t true and is just demagoguery from right wing extremists in Israel that anti-Israel propaganda just eats up. Israel doesn’t have ambitions on taking Turkish territory.
Even with current hostility, trade is surprisingly strong. Turkish business, including pro-government networks, still profits from trade with Israel.
This thread is dumb. Greece’s strategic alignment is because of geopolitics (like every other country) and nonetheless, they still support Palestinian statehood.
Look at it from Greece’s perspective. You have longstanding tensions with Turkey over the Aegean Sea, airspace and Cyprus that have begun to feel very threatening. Israel’s relationship with Turkey deteriorated since 7 October meaning that Greece and Israel have found themselves on the same side strategically. Israel has discovered major gas fields (e.g. Leviathan) and Greece wants to be an energy gateway into Europe which would bypass the Turkish energy route. Greece benefits from Israel’s advanced tech and combat experience, while Israel benefits from access to Greek airspace and Mediterranean positioning
Barice69@reddit
They are taking more and more parts of Lebanon and they have religious lunatics at charge in Israel
Greater Israel threat is real
Dry_Kangaroo7571@reddit
It’s just not. You’re completely ignoring the context as to why they’re in Lebanon in the first place. I don’t disagree that Israel has a right wing government and that they’re lead by a lot of extremists but if you actually study the history, foreign policy and geopolitics, you’ll see that “Greater Israel” is BS
Nowayisthatway@reddit
Its funny that Israel has more instances of returning, and offering land for pesce than actually annexing land. Heck the golan heights were first offered to bashar for peace and he refused.
Nowayisthatway@reddit
Erdogan is still angry about this
2019
Israel Rejects Turkey Maritime Deal That Would Isolate Cyprus:
https://www.thenationalherald.com/israel-rejects-turkey-maritime-deal-that-would-isolate-cyprus/?hl=en-US#:~:text=Turkey%20in%202019%20signed%20a,an%20energy%20ship%20working%20previously.
Prod_Meteor@reddit
We know captain Jean-Luc Picard.
Final-Interest-7664@reddit
Varoufakis is a moron, so I wouldn't take him seriously on any issue. As for Israel, I respect their tenacity and struggle against Muslim oppressors, all Greeks can relate to that. I hope they go after Turkey next.
Professional-Tea-621@reddit
As a Turkish I don't really understand the purpose. West always supported Greece against us and they will always support Greece as a little brother in case of a war. Greece can buy any weaponary from European countries as well. On the other hand Israel just uses other countries not see them as ally. If Israel decides to enter a war against us after Iran, I personally think they will drag Greece and Cyprus into war to scale it up. And really I don't see any benefit for Greece siding with Israel we are neighbor in the Balkan border not in the Middle East and average age of Greece is 50 something. I don't really see any motivation in Turkey to enter a bloody war against Greece either. Greece is not even mentioned here for a very long time except for F-35's that u.s. did not sell to us.
8elly8utton@reddit
For how intertwined they are now, the Greek-Israeli states were not that close diplomatically until about the 2009 crisis.
After the neoliberal dissolution of the greek state was hastened by the crash, the zionist state found ripe ground to invest and dispossess greek wealth, establish military collaboration and plant themselves into the collective memory as cultural "brethren" to greeks.
By 2010 they'd been in cahoots with both the far right New Democracy and the neoliberal wing, something that continued during the fake-left government debacle.
Greece is sort of a back porch for israelis. Their main colonial project is in the Levant/Palestine, but they make sure to expand their economic hegemony by gentrifying greek areas, so as to have safe vacation homes when the resistance of the people they genocide becomes a bit too violent and uncomfy for them.
How to feel about this? Well we're a country that was liberated from a 400 year old foreign rule and then drenched in blood during WW2. But now there is no moral suspension left, Greece is an all-gas genocide enabler. It's hard for any Greek with a conscience to even feel Greek at this point, everything about this country has become a front for markets profiting off the weapons industry and federal corruption.
mostlyecstasy@reddit
We hate israelis as much as we hate turkish agents like baroufakis 😉
mostlyecstasy@reddit
What a coincidence that turkish people love varoufakis here. You are only fooling the ones who dont take decisions in greece komsu.
Nerevar131@reddit
Many Greeks do not view Greece–Israel relations favorably. Unfortunately, Mitsotakis’s government has established a regime in the country with the support of Mossad and Israel, which is why it has chosen this alliance.
Sulo1719@reddit
Lapdog country finding itself a lap. Not a surprise to anyone
theboltT@reddit
Greece is not a real country, its economy is supported by EU funds, military built by US, diplomatic policies they act driven by Israel.
Savings_Dragonfly806@reddit
Huge majority of your country doesn't even a fraction of Turkic DNA, yet you still like to call yourselves "Turks".
keepopeepo@reddit
If this guy wasnt married to one of Greece's richest families nobody would give a shit about his opinions
Lothronion@reddit
He is completely wrong, and he presents himself as way more important than he was, as if he was some final bastion within the SYRIZA-ANEL Greek Government of 2015-2019, preventing the Greek rapprochement with Israel. I would even say he is lying, but it is very possible he does not know what he is talking about.
In actuality, the Greco-Israeli rapprochement had already begun with the Centre-Left PASOK Greek Government of George Papandreou in 2011, then continued by the Centre-Right New Democracy Greek Government of Antonis Samaras in 2012-2015. What is particularly important here is that Greco-Israeli shared military exercises had already began in this period, before the ascension of the SYRIZA-ANEL Greek Government, of which Gianis Varoufakis belonged.
And not only that, but what he says about Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias being the first in allowing the Israeli Defence Forces to use the Greek Airspace for military exercises is completely false as well. This is because such shared drills had already been taking place in the period of 2011-2015, and they are particularly important for Israel, since it was thanks to Greece allowing them to test their anti-ballistic missiles and air defences in the open expanse of the Libyan Sea, south of Crete, that they could develop with ease the famous Iron Dome, which has played such an important role in current Israeli strategic and tactical planning.
Greekdorifuto@reddit
https://youtu.be/aSw8AR7oppY?is=AwIY1_Rnskll8aDW
Lothronion@reddit
Thank you for sharing this.
What a weather! Someone took at heart the British motto, "If it ain't raining, it ain't training"!
As far as I see it, there are three takeaways from this situation: Either (A) Gianis is outrightly lying, either (B) he is speculating based on what little info he might have had as a Finance Minister, and despite that information not being classified he simply failed to make note of it, which would be gross incompetence, and now he is making up the rest of it for political flaunt, or (C) he is simply misremembering things, due to talking about things that took place more than a decade ago, which is still very irresponsible to do.
mikewazoski59@reddit
Hi are you ChatGPT or Gemini?
ViewFromTheKathisma@reddit
Lothronion has been a prolific commenter with long, detailed comments for years even before AI became proliferate. But if you are worried, you can look up any of the information he provided yourself.
Though given your reply, I imagine you are not the most well-informed.
mikewazoski59@reddit
🤫
ViewFromTheKathisma@reddit
You are either a child or an actual imbecile if you believe 'AI detection' software functions as advertised. One of the main reasons we do not use it in corporate and academic settings is because it produces false positives very frequently. It is a basic issue of
Do you want some grown-up literature on the subject like Hannigan, McCarthy and Spicer? It is our go-to for beginners.
mikewazoski59@reddit
Please, just drop it 😂
ViewFromTheKathisma@reddit
Idiot it is then; but since you struggle with it, I will give you this very simple article from MIT than you read at your own leisure. Take your time, you can even translate it to Romanian if you are struggling to understand.
https://mitsloanedtech.mit.edu/ai/teach/ai-detectors-dont-work/
mikewazoski59@reddit
Lothronion@reddit
Nobody asked for selfies.
mikewazoski59@reddit
🤫
sazma_2208@reddit
you are embarrassing yourself
Lothronion@reddit
So, this is what you tell the news announcer when you do not like the news?
Nothing I wrote above is an opinion of mine.
Lothronion@reddit
I find people's failure to distinguish between human text and AI extremely concerning.
I will take it as a praise, though, for the sake of my fast-typing speed.
mikewazoski59@reddit
🤫🤫
Lothronion@reddit
It is not as if such "AI detectors" are not often completely wrong.
And imagine delegating your critical thinking to machines.
mikewazoski59@reddit
Don't make it any worse
Lothronion@reddit
The funny thing is that your image is just a poorly cut snapshot, so there is not even the proof that it is an "AI" evaluating my own text, as it could be of a random "AI" generated one that you present as if it is about mine.
At the end of the day, you are not addressing what I wrote, so you are just performing a very elaborate form of ad hominem, not to me, but the text, not far from claiming someone is wrong for his dialect.
PieBright8211@reddit (OP)
LLMMAOOO
PieBright8211@reddit (OP)
LMAO 😂
Chouzn@reddit
Real politik unfortunately it’s just that there’s no need for further commentary, but if I must I will just say that the current political climate deeply encourages it. As long as there are no more autonomous, fair and strong poles of rule of law, as the Eu and the rest of the west is still acting as vassal states to the United States, real politik will only be strengthened across the globe. If you wish for change you should understand the necessities of strength as well as the importance of chaining said strength through the rule of law and democracy. Eu has been a real proponent of that if however weak it is due to pragmatism. Strengthen democratic principles and institutions, strengthen international cooperation and if you are European embrace the motto in varietate Concordia.
brucebay@reddit
real politik? Because they are afraid of big bad turkey? Maybe they should sit on the table instead of having their cadets shout how they are going to fuck Turkey as real politik? If Turkey is their real enemy Israel won't help them (except using them as a distraction to weaken Turkish army/economy etc). With Current EU outlook, demographics and economy, the best Greece can do is find a deal that satisfies both sides (which to be honest they are mostly the opposite side of the same coin to start with). A few years later, they won't even have a chance to do that if they keep doing this.
Greekdorifuto@reddit
Why doesn't Turkey try to sit on the table? So because Greece isnt doing the best demographically they have to give in ti Turkey's demands? If anything the demographic collapse calls for a modernised military and Israeli equipment is very good and cheaper than its American or even some European counterparts.
Chouzn@reddit
You must be able to understand that I for myself do offer none of my personal opinion but just describing reality. As for Greek-Israel relationship it only came to be after erdogan destroyed his relationship with Israel a big traditional ally for the Turks. In fact throughout the later half of the 20nth century Greece did more for Palestinian kids than any other country other than the Arab states and even the rest of the Arabs seem to have a very unflattering image of the Palestinians. Greek PM Andreas Papandreou took over a fucking cruise ship and gave refuge to Arafat. Proposing that Greek foreign policy should change its stance to Israel now even though even the Arab state have come to accept its existence just for the sake of morality in the current international climate is by all accounts a suicidal move. As for Greek-Turkish relations it is important to respect the international law and the sovereignty of every state and people over their land and rights something that as an American I don’t expect you to understand, currently between the two countries only one hasn’t signed Unclos and only one of them continues to keep occupational forces over European country and member state of the un and Eu. If it is a consolidation I can tell you that I would love a Turkey Eu member and amicable friend and neighbour but if that should ever happen turkey must abandon its Neo imperialism policy something that will be treated as a national betrayal.
Worried-Owl-9198@reddit
Narcisistagohome@reddit
It's quite shameful by the part of Greece. Varoufakis is right. Let's hope,, if they are dragged to the war everyone else is avoiding, they don't ask to be bailed by Europe again.
Greekdorifuto@reddit
Why will we be dragged to the war?
Lenin9112@reddit
We are a satellite state of Usa and Israel we should be independent one day
Greekdorifuto@reddit
Statements like these dont show that at the end if the dwy we are at fault for what has happened and still happens to us
Le_Fish_In_Lava@reddit
i hope this for everyone
Extension-Detail-258@reddit
Thinking that Greece or any other balcan country as a sovereign state is wrong. If balcan does not unite, the problem will be endless. And when I say balcan I mean the entire peninsula. Slovenia to Moldova l, the entire coast line
El_chaplo@reddit
It's funny when it comes to Greece and it's politics, all of a sudden everybody is an expert in politics, military and economics. In reality though nobody knows anything.
Why? Because Greece only have two choices it can either get stabbed by the one side or get stabbed in the other.
And for the greek people, they didn't have a choice. we got stabbed in the back by our government a long time ago.
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
Varoufakis is not representing the Greek people, his party received a roughly 1.5% to the last elections and he is a great guy to governor your enemies country he will destroy it from the inside. 😂
fstbm@reddit
Greece and Cyprus need Israel help in preventing Turkey expansion ambitions, they are allies.
The speaker is probably more in favor of Erdogan dictatorship than Greece or Cyprus democracies
Lion-Osimhen-45@reddit
I don't know about this but at least they're not Israel's bitch just like the usa are
Pamisos@reddit
Mainstream greek media have made a great job, especially after 2009 crisis, distorting people's perception about Economics, geopolitics as well as Varoufakis. He is the most smeared politician in Greece.
People collectively think he destroyed the economy on 6 months, while Economic values show nothing like that.
Sea_Taste3036@reddit
Wierd i see one youtube with the guy now he is on redit also.... Feels like a "China good USA bad...EU bad... "
Original-Box9342@reddit
Who is this?
Opposite-Beyond8922@reddit
I remember back in the day how Greeks used to burn everything to the ground and fight with police forces whenever there was abusive legislation or anything that would directly impact then. I do not hear that anymore from the media. Perhaps it’s time for the mighty Greeks to stand up to what’s right again.
Old_Resident8050@reddit
I'm tired boss..
pariria@reddit
Oh f*ck this idiot. The only people that like him are the a few far left greeks and of course (!!!) Turkish people. Tells you a lot really about his agenda if Turkey is viewing him as an idol.
vm0066@reddit
I saw greeks say he is paid by turkey (lol) to say these things, they're in denial or just stupid. We exist to serve the Epstein Axis' interests to the extent that we can and that's just the truth
Sea_Report_7566@reddit
Guess I’m never visiting Greece
PaceZealousideal2807@reddit
shows how economically desperate Greeks are
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
They want to abolish NATO and create a new military alliance that gives Greek, Cyprus and Israel more space and not include Turkiye inside.
So when Israel attacks Turkiye, Greek will keep the Western part busy, they'll seize territory in Western Anatolia and genocide the Turks and relocate them to Central parts of Anatolia.
90% of Western World will support this saying "Hey Turks did genocides too! It is not that bad! It is war, there is casualties, you prefer Erdoğan's regime" etc
DimGenn2@reddit
I support it.
PaceZealousideal2807@reddit
I thought Greece was a country not Israel's bitch
1970ivan@reddit
As a Serb I support it too, the reality is you need someone who will help you against Turkey and you were standing alone against them protecting entire ortodox Balkan countries at the same time. Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria and Romania should have sent you troops and money to help you with the burden but since we are weak and corrupt Israel is a good choice as well.
Substratas@reddit
I couldn’t care less.
PaceZealousideal2807@reddit
stfu we didn't ask u
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
Thanks for letting us know.
Substratas@reddit
You’re welcome.
PaceZealousideal2807@reddit
I thought Greece was a country not Israel's bitch
Kreol1q1q@reddit
I don't think about Greek-Israeli relations.
And I try not to think of Varoufakis as well.
Last_Greek@reddit
Hopefully it’s just a means to an end
Careful-Professor-78@reddit
this is guy is delulu.