Italy calls for Hormuz 'humanitarian corridor' for fertiliser
Posted by rubbishaccount88@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 223 comments
Posted by rubbishaccount88@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 223 comments
StrongAroma@reddit
if I were Iran, my response would be: you attacked us. It's you want fertilizer, withdraw your forces and go home.
Bearded_Toast@reddit
You wouldn’t demand money for all the damage done to non-military and civilian infrastructure…?
StrongAroma@reddit
Oh yeah, 100%. Plus restitution to the families of people murdered by the invaders.
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
plus: reparations for Lebanon, a complete withdrawal from Lebanon. Reparations for Gaza and West Bank. Complete withdrawal from both and an end to any and all land theft in the west bank by settlers.
AggravatingMark1367@reddit
And repeal of the DISGUSTING death penalty law
pdeisenb@reddit
Several countries in the Middle East actively use the death penalty, with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Egypt among the world's top executioners, accounting for a significant majority of reported global executions. These nations often apply capital punishment for crimes including murder, terrorism, and drug trafficking.
AggravatingMark1367@reddit
It’s an apartheid law. Palestinians will be judged in military courts with 99% conviction rate while illegal Israeli settlers who routinely commit terror attacks against Palestinians will face civilian courts with less than ten percent conviction rate (if they’re tried at all) Ben Gvir, who celebrated the law passing, is himself a terrorist but this law is written so in practice it will ONLY apply to Palestinians.
pdeisenb@reddit
In fairness and to your point, those are the criticisms. There is also the question of whether the death penalty can ever be considered moral. That said, the critique is at worst hypocritical and at best overstated.
Under Palestinian Authority (PA) law, selling land to Israeli Jews is a crime officially punishable by the death penalty
Milbso2@reddit
You mean a complete withdrawal from Palestine and an end to the settler colony known as 'Israel'.
Connerys_Toupee@reddit
I'm not defending the Israel government by any means but where exactly are all those people supposed to withdraw to? That's how we ended up in this miserable situation to begin with.
Milbso2@reddit
They can to Europe or the US. Wherever their settler parents/grandparents emigrated from. I'm not overly concerned about where the settlers end up to be honest. They could even stay there provided a sovereign Palestinian state is happy with it.
Bearded_Toast@reddit
And there you have it: perfect stalemate recipe
StrongAroma@reddit
And whose fucking fault is that
Bearded_Toast@reddit
Donald trump
Milbso2@reddit
The US was messing with Iran long before Trump took office. Do not make the mistake of blaming a single man for the systemic crimes of an empire.
pvdfan@reddit
Never forget Oliver North illegally sold them weapons under Regan and now gets paid by Fox News to say they shouldn't have any weapons.
chrismetalrock@reddit
it was donald trump and milbso2's fault. there.
ReasonablePossum_@reddit
Wasn't him forcing a move, he just has a collar on made of pedo cannibal photos lol
SirFrancisDrakesails@reddit
How about restitution for the huge numbers of Iranians killed by the Islamists. The people of Iran want freedom.
Dragoncat_3_4@reddit
Sure let's free the people of Iran by "bombing them to the Stone Age". They'll totally be free then.
StrongAroma@reddit
Oh is THAT what this war is about? Show me the plan and objective here
Z3r0sama2017@reddit
Iran:"Send the war criminals to the Hague and we will ask for no restitutions"
HassanAchievedIt@reddit
And what about future aggression, any sort of agreement that if similar actions are repeated in future because its a habit so what will be the consequences?
FUDintheNUD@reddit
Yeh how much do you charge for each of the children you've had murdered, I wonder?
6rwoods@reddit
Italy didn’t attack Iran though. The US did, and now everyone in the world is paying the price.
knuppan@reddit
Italy has been sucking US dick for decades. It would do them good to accept Iran's smallest demands:
But perhaps real hunger is needed to finally start demanding real sovereignty.
jbiserkov@reddit
Italy had the largest communist party in Europe (after USSR).
CIA made sure it was destroyed and the fascist are in power.
StrongAroma@reddit
Italy and the rest of the West has been strongly allied with the US for decades. America's global power derives from other countries continuing to support them.
If you're walking down the street with a friend, and your friend just starts randomly punching strangers in the face, if you do nothing to stop them, you are an asshole too.
Ree_For_Thee@reddit
That the US has gone CrAaAaAzY lately hasn't evaded anyone. They're not anyone's ally but maybe Russia's (which are Iran's ally... weird).
Burial@reddit
I'm not sure Russia has real allies. That's another way the USA is beginning to resemble them.
saltedmangos@reddit
I mean: Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Libya, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Coup of Iran, etc…
This isn’t exactly something that just started “lately”.
Trump just doesn’t bother with the manufacturing consent propaganda and with the war with Iran clearly trusted Israeli intelligence more than the pentagon.
BTRCguy@reddit
Yeah, I can see that. The problem is the punch-happy friend is bigger than you, threatened to punch you in the face and also helps pay your bills, so it takes more spine than most people (countries) have to tell him to fuck all the way off.
Antani101@reddit
The fuck he does
neonium@reddit
Lol, ya, a huge portion of the US's economy is just tech, and tech's whole thing is extracting rents from vasal states you've forced into accepting bullshit IP laws.
Like, apple, google, MS, ect. take a 60% rake on a huge chunks of the internet, it is very clearly the US leaching off of the whole world and not the other way arround.
Antani101@reddit
Yeah but in that analogy the US was paying for EU bill, and that's not it.
neonium@reddit
Which is why I was agreeing with you, that the US wasn't paying anyone's bills?
Antani101@reddit
Misunderstood your comment then, my bad
BTRCguy@reddit
In the sense of intertwined economies. The friend analogy doesn't work if you start introducing balance of trade...
StrongAroma@reddit
I think this is what Canada's prime minister, Mark Carney, was referring to when he talked about middle powers needing to unite in order to limit the impact the superpowers can have over the rest of us. Unfortunately, I think it may be too late, and America is doing everything it can to draw the rest of us into their conflict.
BTRCguy@reddit
Agreed. A bunch of countries the US needs economically, presenting a united front and telling him to go pound sand, would have been nice. But one-at-a-time piecemeal efforts have less impact.
Antani101@reddit
The US also needs those countries militarily, without access to NATO bases the US wouldn't be a superpower anymore.
Glodraph@reddit
I agree with the theory on this, but in practice, it's the perfect recipe with which you ask others to come bomb you too, sadly.
sunshine-x@reddit
Iran seems very reasonable on this topic.
If your country isn’t actively used as a base from which to attack Iran, AND you’ll pay for your products in yuan instead of USD, you’re fine!
What’s the problem?
Schapsouille@reddit
Italy and the rest of the world can put an embargo on the US and Israel then. Isn't it how this works when countries go rogue?
Lost_Afropick@reddit
Who is "you"? in this context? Italy? The world?
Israel and the USA attacked Iran with the help of some Gulf states and some European bases. That's it.
There's a lot of the world who needs that fertilizer who did nothing to Iran wondering wtf did we do?
Lorkaj-Dar@reddit
What did you do? Your politicians chose the wrong side? The US wants to exert its will on the global stage? We pay a global price.
What do you do now? Put pressure on the US and Israel before theyre knocking at your countries' door pulling the same stunts.
If the states gets away with this, theyll take Canada and Greenland next. China takes Taiwan. We get picked apart victim shaming.
SirFrancisDrakesails@reddit
The illegitimate Islamic government has been attacking their own people and the west since they came to power. They started this war in 1979.
StrongAroma@reddit
Wait, who put that illegitimate government there again?
SirFrancisDrakesails@reddit
They put themselves there when they betrayed the will of the majority of Persians by backstabbing the new government and imposing a backwards theocracy on a secular country.
Physical_Ad5702@reddit
Reality and facts aren’t your strong suit.
SirFrancisDrakesails@reddit
Nobody likes a hypocrite.
96-62@reddit
The US will be fine. Africa/Asia not so much.
eman_ssap@reddit
Italy?
OatSoyLaMilk@reddit
Don't they just need to pay the toll in yuan, or are they worried America will bomb them if they cooperate like that?
Solrelari@reddit
They should let countries ships through if they agree to sanction the US and its bad actors
Milbso2@reddit
And trade in Yuan instead of USD. finally end the petrodollar.
DestroyTheMatrix_3@reddit
Found the Chinese bot
RPM314@reddit
Surely anyone in favor of this must be a Chinese state actor, because it's not like US currency domination is used to hurt millions of innocent people or something like that
DestroyTheMatrix_3@reddit
There's a difference between not approving everything your country does and suggesting we make some foreign country more powerful.
Advanced_Air_1411@reddit
I mean usa has hurt millions of people with their sanctions when the americans have never felt a fraction of that. So ending petro dollar seems good
Milbso2@reddit
The USAmericans will feel it eventually. Capitalism's need for constant growth and wealth accumulation will force it to third-world its own population eventually. Us working class folks in the imperial core have historically been shielded from the worst of it due to our countries' exploitation of the global south, but that will only work for so long. Just look at our dwindling quality of life, our drop in real-terms wages, the endless inflation and constant 'new normals'. Things will get worse and worse for the average person while the capitalist class hoards more and more wealth.
Milbso2@reddit
The USA is the most brutal and sadistic entity on earth. China is literally a saint in comparison to the USA. I would immediately welcome a world where China was the dominant power over the USA.
China has invaded zero countries in over fourty years. Their citizens have known nothing but improvements in infrastructure and quality of life for decades. Their real-terms wages increase year on year. And they do all this without colonialism or slavery. Europe and the US on the other hand offer their citizens persistent declines in qol and income with endless inflation. We won't be able to retire. We can barely afford to live, and there is no hope for the future. And despite this our countries continue to abuse and exploit global south nations at will and funnel more and more money into the pockets of a select few billionaires and hundred-millionaires.
There is literally no comparison to be made. China is not a perfect country by a long way, but it is absolutely a more moral and trustworthy state that the USA.
Milbso2@reddit
Grow up
DestroyTheMatrix_3@reddit
You guys couldn't program a better response?
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
reported
DestroyTheMatrix_3@reddit
For calling a likely bot a bot?
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
calling them "chinese bot" is breaking the rules. we are meant to be courteous and respectful. I also suspect a bit of racism rooted in your comment.
DestroyTheMatrix_3@reddit
Perhaps my comment was a bit flippant, but it is a real possibility when a large portion of reddit traffic is proven to be bots. One must doubt if these comments are really comming from western/Americans, which would mean they are asking for an outcome that is not in their own nation's best interests. Just saying, it seems very astroturfish.
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a bot. Reddit has users from all over the world and perspectives outside the western mainstream exist whether you like them or not. If you think trading in Yuan is a bad idea explain why, but jumping straight to “Chinese bot” just shuts down any chance for a discussion. And the idea of moving away from usd isn’t a "Chinese bot" take it’s a real geopolitical discussion happening globally. A lot of countries question whether the current system disproportionately benefits America and you can disagree with that but dismissing it as propaganda instead of engaging with the argument is weak.
DestroyTheMatrix_3@reddit
"Reddit has users from all over the world" is a useless statement. Reddit is overwhelmingly a wester platform with over 50% of accounts being from the us alone. Maybe redditors hate their own country, who knows. But when an agenda is being pushed on reddit without much resistance, there ARE bots involved. Posr bots, commenting bits, voting bots, you name it. The only question is how many bots are used?
Marinah@reddit
Which US base are you posting this from?
DestroyTheMatrix_3@reddit
Area 51
brickout@reddit
no, it's common sense. china will be the next global stabilizing force once the US is further along in its downfall. it's inevitable.
Glodraph@reddit
You know that for this to happen there would be an almost total world collapse right? Also that would mean all the decision making of the world in the hands of other dictatorships, which is not good.
Milbso2@reddit
No, you can only think in terms of unipolarity because that is how you think the world has to be. People are capable of organising themselves without living under the boot of an empire. There are functioning societies all over the world. Having the USA extract money and resources from everyone is not a necessary element of human survival, in fact it is a hindrance to it. Without ending the USA/capitalist empire, we are going to die in climate catastrophe or nuclear war. Our only chance is a collapse of the US empire, because those capitalists know nothing other than wealth hoarding and will bleed the entire planet dry if we continue to let them.
Omal15@reddit
I'm agree that the collapse of the US empire is necessary for the survival of humanity, but that is just the first step of many if we are to mitigate the worst of what is to come if we don't end our current pattern of endless consumption.
Milbso2@reddit
Of course it is only the first step, but it is the first step.The empire crushes (almost) every movement which aims to move past the capitalist world order dragging us into catastrophe. We must prioritise the defeat of that empire if we are to have any hope for the future.
rematar@reddit
Which is likely inevitable.
They would likely be more predictable.
bristlybits@reddit
aren't they already accepting this for safe passage tolls?
Milbso2@reddit
I think so but not entirely sure
StarlightLifter@reddit
Jesus Christ. Never thought I’d see the day we would have fallen so fucking hard.
This country is no longer the one I grew up in. All the spoiled petulant children I grew up with and the fucking boomers that preceded them can fuck right off.
Cause that’s what they all are, spoiled rotten. They think the system that allowed the proliferation of the worlds richest and most powerful global hegemony, that gave even some of our poorest upbringings better than in some of the most worst off countries in the world - WASNT GOOD ENOUGH.
Nevermind our global dominating currency, military bases across the globe, trade that favored us or at least didn’t favor our enemies, the technological boom that put a man on the moon less than a century after we also invented powered flight.
The iPhones and Xbox’s and flat screen TVs and the Marvel Cinematic Universe and all that fucking happy meal bullshit wasn’t enough to satisfy the most greedy and thirsty among us.
So we elected a fucking man child kiddy diddler under the auspices that he would get us EVEN more.
And now, the whole world is going to pay the price. This piece of shit goes and fucks the entire world’s economy and for what? To turn around and say “I shit all over the bathroom, come clean it up and wipe my ass while you’re at it.”
And his supporters just slack jawed and inbred or at the least not suffering from an over abundance of schooling stare and contemplate the destruction of the entire worlds economy, pause a moment, and then just bleed out “MAGA!” or “own the libs” or whatever.
If humanity truly is this fucking stupid at its core, maybe we just don’t fucking deserve to be here.
Children will starve. People who didn’t vote for this will starve. And it will get worse. The polycrisis is catapulting into the heavens.
Advanced_Air_1411@reddit
I mean at the same time so many normal people were affected by us sanctions during usa global hegemony. Americans and their allies weren't affected obviously but many people suffered right?
Ragfell@reddit
It probably is the country you grew up in. We've had issues for a long time.
Lost_Afropick@reddit
You can't sanction the country with the global reserve currency. They sanction you
krazykat357@reddit
Not even just agree to; make it a requirement first with signatory from ambassadors and public statements by the heads of said country. 'Agreements' with no backing are worthless these days.
rubbishaccount88@reddit (OP)
We are only a few weeks out from a spiral of major oil shocks moving around the globe, beginning in Asia, then Europe. Impacts on food production will be slower to appear but will hit hard. Very much hoping Iran lets something get worked out here for the lives of many many Africans.
CannyGardener@reddit
Ya I really hope the US lets something get worked out here. I remember growing up with images of bloated Somali children with flies all over their eyes... would prefer not to go back to a world where that is a prevelant thing.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
The quickest way to ensure that in perpetuity is to send them condoms instead of calories but apparently causing unnecessary suffering just to feel good in the present is the popular move with the homo (wise) man 🤔
It's headless I get told. But then the starvation and mass migrations are somehow wholesome then 😳
brickout@reddit
shockingly clueless, crass statement.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
Not really. Aid to those places have been nothing but a complete disaster.... People just want to feel good today while building up future nightmares. Joke species...
brickout@reddit
I hope you aren't this flippant about everything in life. You'll suffer for it, not to mention making the people around you suffer. I hope you heal from whatever you let damage you.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
Okk thanks I'll try. But I'm not sure u disproved my premise. Yes mine sounds heartless but to me your approach is more heartless for not wanting an actual fix... Instead you are unknowingly advocating for future nightmares just to feel good today.
brickout@reddit
Listen, I deal with teenage edgelords all day, so you're no problem. How about this, livestream your travels to a starving community and tell them that the solution is for them to stop procreating and just die off. See how that goes.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the biological imperative as well as a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem. Again, I hope you heal. You are doing yourself and others a disservice.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
Well, in dealing with edgelords it would have been super helpful if you stopped straw manning.
I never said lets go tell starving people to die off. My message is clearly to stop rich people subsidizing the bad decisions of foreign lands to grift/virtue signal. Let them live with their decision. Nature finds a balance in populations naturally. It's brutal but that's reality.
Our attempt to stop what is natural has only resulted in us making the problems way worse
And the people pointing it out are somehow the monsters. Clown world. Yeah let's stop starvation now and make the problem 10x worse
Okk how about as a condition to aid they have to be made incapable of having kids in a humane way? Is that better? So no starvation and no making the problem worse.
brickout@reddit
Absolutely amazing response :) you, for some reason, connect edgelords with strawman arguments, which is itself a strawman, then you can't even summarize my original statement correctly. Astounding.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
Cool. Lets keep increasing the size of future famines so we can feel better about ourselves today. Great plan 🤭
brickout@reddit
still completely misunderstanding the point. yikes. i hope you aren't responsible for any important decisions.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
No, the important decisions are clearly only reserved for super high IQ people like you and I'm so greatful for the stunningly successful and prosperous results we have to enjoy for ourselves based on the results from those excellent important decisions made 👍
Can't wait for more of the same from the 'Make me feel good today' crowd 👏👏
brickout@reddit
*grateful
I was a climate scientist for a couple decades and am a peer-reviewed published author on the topic of mitigating deleterious effects of climate change. I am also a career teacher. I literally work every day to improve the world and the people around me. So, yeah.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
That's great. But, unfortunately, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. It's not your fault. You were just doing what's best.
Realistically, it's still objectively true that not all help is good or useful and calories instead of condoms is still the main cause of never ending humanitarian crises.
brickout@reddit
Again, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the human condition. You have had the extreme privilege of never having to suffer and fight for the survival of your people. That is very obvious. You are applying a fake, cruel "solution" that could never work. Again, you go to those places and tell them the fix to their suffering is to stop procreating and just let their society die out. See how they act.
You have no empathy. I hope you learn it as painlessly as possible.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
You are assuming a lot about me.
Both options are cruel. Your option just delays the cruelty but is easily the far crueler over longer periods.
It's 'Make me feel good today' versus 'Lets actually try to fix the root causes'
Their societies won't die out. They would thrive because one of the main reason their societies are the way they are is because of overpopulation 🙂
Bavarian_Raven@reddit
He's arrogant and snide about it, but he's not wrong. Too many people in areas that cannot support them. Over population is the source of most of the problems the world faces these days, :(
brickout@reddit
Absolutely incorrect. Resource shortages are man-made still. We could solve world hunger with the current number of people on the planet.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
Ur missing the point. The problem isn't solving world hunger. We did that. The problem is you just subsidized and made the problem worse in the future because aid clearly just creates dependency and actually grows the problem (temporarily making it look like it's fixed)
brickout@reddit
"We did that." Fucking lol. Even if we had (good lord), why would you think we wouldn't be able to do it again, or to keep up with demand, or to change the systems to actually fix hunger? "Fixing" it doesn't mean everybody gets to eat but their future kids don't.
Jesus christ. I'm done here. You're somehow missing the point even harder than I thought.
Lorkaj-Dar@reddit
Correct. Ww2 funding would have solved world hunger. Its been well documented.
Sidenote: I used to be a teenage edgelord in the aughts.
I was very pro eugenics, lets just mass sterilize the poors! Actually my radar was those below average intelligence. Push the species forward.
/s
Funny how we know it all in highschool, then eventually some of us grow up and realize how little we know.
These countries have been exploited by the fiat economy, their only crimes being late to the party. They owe predatory loans to either the UN or the silk road, and it keeps them destitute in perpetuity.
Sprinkle a healthy dose of corruption and hopelessness, and the deck is stacked against you for generations.
But sure air drop some condoms and let them suffer. Come back decades later and see the nothing youve accomplished.
exmuslimnfree@reddit
Yes, bcoz clearly our current approach is super working and not an absolute disaster. More calories with no expectations in return forever. Great plan...
It's either airdrop condoms now (30 years ago), or be prepared to lose it all coz that's the choice at the current trajectory
darkpsychicenergy@reddit
You’re not wrong but simply dropping condoms will not cut it. The women need unfettered access to the full range of reproductive planning and health services. The culture has to change. And part of the problem is that every time we get a republican administration they cut funding under the global gag rule.
https://reproductiverights.org/resources/fact-sheet-the-global-gag-rule-and-human-rights/
exmuslimnfree@reddit
It's not our job. It's time to leave some regions alone and quarantine them for the sake of humanity. We have enough data to know which regions are hopeless and a waste of time...
So fine. No condoms but pls stop pumping them with free calories forever. It's not the good deed act ppl think it is.
darkpsychicenergy@reddit
Does that include leaving their fossil fuel, mineral, precious metals and rare earth resources alone? Does it include not importing mass quantities of things like coffee and cacao and vanilla beans and palm oils? Does it include not exporting mass quantities of trash, fast fashion and electronic waste to them?
exmuslimnfree@reddit
Completely unrelated to the original issue at hand
darkpsychicenergy@reddit
It’s very much related if this is your proposed solution.
adamsoutofideas@reddit
Farmers near me are delaying fertilizing in the vain hope this will be sorted out and they'll be 5k up on their neighbours.
Make no mistake, if it's time to put fertilizer in the ground where you live, the current price of fertilizer and diesel is now in the cost of food that's harvested in the fall.
Our fertilizer bill is set to almost triple so we're discussing other options...... that should sound scary to everyone, that farmers are considering not farming because of the costs.
GreatPlainsFarmer@reddit
What country are you in? I'm in the USA, western corn belt region, and no one is leaving any ground unplanted this year. They might cut nitrogen applications 10% or so, but that's not going to have a big impact on yields. Maybe a 3-5% drop, which isn't much considering that we grew a record large crop last year.
Most would have had at least some of this year's fertilizer pre-priced. For those who didn't, the worst is up around 50%. Farmers here think the fertilizer is terribly expensive, and it is, but it seems to be some of the cheapest in the world.
rubbishaccount88@reddit (OP)
Damn. This is sobering. I really think most people in the US are not yet coming to terms with how directly were gonna feel all this. Good luck.
darkpsychicenergy@reddit
The link doesn’t work.
rubbishaccount88@reddit (OP)
https://www.bssnews.net/international/373957
darkpsychicenergy@reddit
This does work. Thank you.
Milbso2@reddit
Iran isn't the problem here, it's the countries waging an uprovoked war of aggression/the insurance companies which won't cover trips through the strait.
The US could end this immediately if they wanted to.
SirFrancisDrakesails@reddit
The Islamic government in Iran is obviously the problem. If they hadn't held the people of Iran hostage for 47 years and spread death and destruction this situation would never have happened.
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
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Milbso2@reddit
If the US had never couped Mossadegh to secure resource extraction none of this ever would have happened. If the US hadn't imposed crippling sanctions on Iran they might have been able to develop economically and socially. The moral of the story is: the US needs to get out of everyone else's business, respect national sovereignty, and relinquish its bloodthirsty quest for complete global domination. Nobody else is to blame here except the aggressor: the USA.
Physical_Ad5702@reddit
It’s a Zionist troll acct - just ignore them
SirFrancisDrakesails@reddit
If you're not an Islamist troll that makes you a useful idiot.
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Milbso2@reddit
Sometimes good to put a response for the lurkers. That's what kicked off the shift in my worldview. I don't generally expect to change the minds of the people I respond to.
SirFrancisDrakesails@reddit
Maybe, maybe not, but that doesn't excuse the actions of the Islamists.
The second part is obviously untrue as the Islamists started oppressing and killing people as soon as they came into power in 79. They did it in Iran to their own people, and they did it abroad including countless terrorist attacks. US sanctions started decades later and were a response to the crimes and hostile actions of the Islamists, not the cause of it.
It's disturbing how many people are defending Islamic extremists that gun down their own people in the streets and hate the west. They literally had a dooms day clock counting down to the destruction of Israel, and said from the beginning they were waging a jihad against the west.
FlyingStealthPotato@reddit
Take the insurance companies out of it lol. They’re not the problem for not covering acts of war (an exclusion up and down every facet of insurance because it would bankrupt the insurer if it ever came into play as a coverable loss). You expect them to pay out for 2-3 total loss tankers, go bankrupt, and then what? Insurance companies cannot plan for or operate for war, it just doesn’t work. Insurance by definition is for sudden, accidental or weather related loss. Missiles are not accidental or weather related (this is also why health insurance should be a social service rather than insurance, it doesn’t actually meet a real definition of insurance).
The only ones to blame are the US and Israel. That’s literally it. This is the fucking stupidest initiation of war I know of.
Milbso2@reddit
Copying my other response to a similar comment: I'm not blaming them as such, just highlighting that it is not Iran which should be blamed. The insurance company element just highlights how this all connects back to global capitalist dominance, as the insurance industry is a key component of that. It is actuaries and politicians in the US keeping the strait closed, not Iran. Iran is doing what it can to defend itself from an unprovoked attack by the most powerful empire in history.
96-62@reddit
No, it's definitely Iran. The US/Israel started this war, and much of the blame should be assigned to them, but it's Iran actually doing it. With missiles and drones and the such like.
Milbso2@reddit
Iran is defending itself from an existential threat. The US is the aggressor. They started it, they are continuing it. They did not need to start it at all. Iran has a right to defend itself using whatever leverage it has.
96-62@reddit
Yes, but Iran is doing so. I'm not sure what you're trying to get to, or what everyone is reading into me here.
Milbso2@reddit
You're saying 'Iran is doing it', while ignoring the context? I suppose yes that is a factually true statement, but a meaningless one. Iran's hand is forced. Your comment sounds a bit like the old 'stop hitting yourself' bullying method.
96-62@reddit
Hmm. I've read back, I guess I'm ignoring too much context, which is often my weakness.
brickout@reddit
They have clearly stated their conditions and Trump is refusing. It's really silly to blame the closure on Iran.
YellowCabbageCollard@reddit
I don't think it's fair to blame the insurance companies. First, why should the crews of ships they insure risk their life for this? And why should they insure ships they know will be hit and aren't likely to successfully navigate? They are just logically responding to the situation. If I was a crew on one of those ships I'd now want to die for this either.
Milbso2@reddit
I'm not blaming them as such, just highlighting that it is not Iran which should be blamed. The insurance company element just highlights how this all connects back to global capitalist dominance, as the insurance industry is a key component of that. It is actuaries and politicians in the US keeping the strait closed, not Iran. Iran is doing what it can to defend itself from an unprovoked attack by the most powerful empire in history.
YellowCabbageCollard@reddit
Sorry if I was not clear either. I don't blame Iran at all for the actions they have taken. They said they would do this if they were attacked again. I understand they are being forced to make choices that create pressure because they are defending their country.
I just also feel like the insurance companies are doing what they have to do to protect their businesses because Iran has clearly said they will attack the ships if they try and go through. I don't blame Iran for that. I blame the US and Israel.
Milbso2@reddit
Yes that's fine but the point is that the insurance industry is part of the capitalist system that the US state exists to serve. That is the connection I am trying to highlight.
rubbishaccount88@reddit (OP)
No, Iran is not the main problem. But the US is not going to end this immediately, if at all. Or so it currently appears. I feel comfortable saying that we're in a world war at this point and I suspect that will be too obvious to deny by the end of April if nothing changes.
This particular request is borne of a UK chaired coalition of 40 countries. Having humanitarian safe passage like this during a protracted conflict is not so unusual historically.
blackcatwizard@reddit
You're going to have to outline your thought process on how Iran is the problem, considering US/Israel has been bombing them indiscriminately from the start
neonium@reddit
They really don't?
The US and Israel are fucking insane, and are not amenable to negotiating in good faith.
They hope Iran is willing to make exceptions for fertilizer through the straight for humanitarian reasons, because they are a substantially more moral, rational, and reasonable actor than either Israel or the US.
They are literally and clearly saying that Iran is the focus because they are the more reasonable and trustworthy party, where as if anyone tells Bibi more black kids are going to die the man is liable to start furiously masturbating over the thought.
Milbso2@reddit
The best leverage Iran has is to threaten a full system collapse. The US and Europe (for the most part) do not care about Africans suffering. They are afraid of the blowback the systemic break will have on them. Iran needs to stand firm and remember that they did not start this and that the aggressors have the power to end it whenever they want. Africans are already suffering under the existing capitalist empire and that is unlikely to change without some major power shift.
blackcatwizard@reddit
I misread their statement, as them saying Iran was the problem. All your points stand.
ReasonablePossum_@reddit
Trump drooling at the thought of dd kiddos and BB gooning
Milbso2@reddit
As soon as you say 'UK chaired' I know I can disregard it. Where is the UK condemnation of the US/Israeli aggression? The UK is a lapdog state to the US. It is complicit. And I say that as someone who lives there. The best thing for the world is the collapse of the US empire so I stand by Iran 100%. Let the US end this or collapse.
Capital-Fun-6609@reddit
I feel the same as an Aussie
whenitsTimeyoullknow@reddit
How do you reason with a government which is publicly saying they will send Iran back to the Stone Age?
xXXxRMxXXx@reddit
You don't, they have become the enemy of everyone
rematar@reddit
Hey now, there are other current war crime lords who seem friendly. Vlad and Benjamin come to mind.
Sophecles@reddit
Benjamin friendly, are you insane? He is the cause of this whole fucking mess
AnOnlineHandle@reddit
I think they meant dictators are friendly with the current US administration and vice versa, in response to the previous poster saying that the US have become the enemies of everyone.
xXXxRMxXXx@reddit
Yeah Israel is probably the only friendly the US has, if you consider leashing US Congress into an ally as a friendly. Russia and North Korea are definitely not friendlies to the US, the are just taking advantage of this chaos to ensure the toppling of the USD and transition to BRICS currencies
LordAurum007@reddit
The US democracy is a farce, both parties are fascist and the leadership is a dictatorship of capital
But yet other countries have dictators because the corporate media told you they are?
p0ntifix@reddit
Mf has pestered every single US president about attacking Iran to prevent the imminent threat of nukes, starting even before he was Premier. OC President Dump is the one to do it. Even Bush jr. and his posse knew better and they where the harwkiest of hawks.
Bluest_waters@reddit
Correct, Netanyahu is an absolute terror to the entire planet
sunshine-x@reddit
Neither are threatening to invade Canada at least so there’s that.
One_red_boot@reddit
Don’t for one second think he’s stopped planning for it. He’ll get back to threatening us and Greenland as soon as he’s out of hot water over Iran.
rematar@reddit
I assume that Vlad and Donald have sat around a globe contemplating having control over the north.
False_Raven@reddit
Woah woah woah,
Let's no use words like "enemy"
Countries might actually begin lashing out at America with that language
tritisan@reddit
He meant nukes. He wants to nuke them.
one-happy-chappie@reddit
You start by not cutting the head off the hydra
Bluest_waters@reddit
Everyone Please remember this was netanyahu's brilliant idea originally. And then of course dipshit Donnie went along with it like the absolute moron he is. And it's causing it international economic tailspin. Both of these people should be in The Hague on trial
Bearded_Toast@reddit
Yes, because Iran is the main problem here.
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25TiMp@reddit
How about a 'humanitarian corridor' for the Iranian people?
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
This is the collapse sub. A bigger problem than the Strait of Hormuz with respect to food production is that nitrogen fertilizers are produced using oil. Oil leads to climate change. And it will eventually run out. We need to start working on shifting methods of food production. And eating a lot less meat since lots of crops are produced just to feed animals, esp. cows. Beef is the worst meat you can eat environmentally.
pocketgravel@reddit
If you have enough cheap stable electricity you can make fertillizer from water hydrolysis. It's just steam methane reforming is the cheapest source of hydrogen on the planet by miles.
oldsecondhand@reddit
Hydrogen from electrolysis costs 2-3 times more than from natural gas .
pocketgravel@reddit
That is the entire point of my comment
cosmicosmo4@reddit
This is something that so few people are seemingly aware of, that our food is literally oil.
YellowCabbageCollard@reddit
Unless it's primarily raised on grazing land that is otherwise not amenable to normal raising of field crops. I personally do not eat meat and haven't for about 8 years. But I do think we could over all find better ways to produce meat that's not just feedlot beef.
Shifting the way we raise food is going to require a lot of actual people to work on farms instead of massive farm equipment run on oil. And I feel like people are just insanely resistant to this. It would also drive up the cost of food a lot. Because paying workers fairly isn't something we currently do.
But I have even had people arguing with me recently that it's not even worth growing any food on your own in your yard because they insist it costs more to grow it anyway. Of course those people are just going with the claims they personally want to embrace which lets them tell themself it's pointless for them to even try and grow food.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
I agree future agriculture will be labor intensive. I don't see an alternative. Those that grow food will have a chance to survive.
I don't grow nearly enough calories to survive, but it's cheap to grow some food if you have the land. Make compost, save rainwater, and provide some labor for weeding. If you don't have any land it would be expensive to buy it but if, like millions, you already have some space, it's cheap. I get that it's easier to go to the grocery store. That simply won't always be the case.
YellowCabbageCollard@reddit
I agree it's going to have to be a lot more labor intensive. I can't grow everything to survive either but I figure being able to grow a good bit will make a huge difference in a world where food is incredibly expensive.
I wonder how long before more people are accepting of that idea though. I'm a little more paranoid or realistic, depending on how you look at it. We bought milk goats recently and are building a barn. And I'm currently looking into how to raise meat rabbits since I can theoretically grow most or a lot of their food.
I already have the skills down and the supplies for a lot of veg growing. I'm also planning to start propagating a lot of the fruit bushes and vines I have, since most things are shipped in and not grown locally, even the plants, not just the produce, know what I mean?
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
Rabbits are so practical. My cousins used to raise them. They aren't hard, they don't take up much space, and they provide fantastic fertilizer. I think in the future those that eat meat will be eating chicken, rabbit, and maybe some pork occasionally.
Cool about the goats!
I have blackberry bushes and they are prolific and fend for themselves (with a little pruning).
bristlybits@reddit
range beef and meat/dairy dual use breeds. the specialisation of cows is also a big deal
rematar@reddit
Small homesteads were pretty self-sufficient for their food a few generations ago. Our species isn't known to be good at sharing in large groups.
I see interconnected homesteads as the future, unless you are happy to be chosen to support a freedom city sponsored by a rich asshole.
YellowCabbageCollard@reddit
I'm in my late 40's and had some great grandmothers with farms but no one since then has done anything even close, other than my own personal immediate family. The great grandmother I knew best had her own stocked fish ponds, cattle, fruit trees and a very large garden and canned a lot of food. I knew her in her old age and she did not have chickens at that point but I'm sure she did years ago. But they also hunted and I remember a Thanksgiving where my dad went out and shot a wild turkey for our Thanksgiving dinner.
Everyone with farms lived rurally though with lots of land. Something most of us don't have. I have exactly one acre in a suburban area but I bought it in large part because it was zoned agricultural. I can't come close to what my great grandmothers had but I can grow a decent amount of fresh produce most of the year.
Awkward_Mastodon4332@reddit
A huge amount of sulfur passes through the strait as well and that is used to make phosphate fertiliser, so it's not just N that will face supply issues.
shastatodd@reddit
Yep, as a super healthy vegetarian since 1977 eating lower on the food chain is clearly an option.
house_of_drums@reddit
If I were Iran I’d tell them to kick rocks.
Why are you asking IRAN to open the strait?! TELL AMERICA TO FUCK OFF OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST
MDS583@reddit
why are you putting Iran as the cause of it? Why don't you ask Trump to leave the area and everything will return to normal; the problem is his fault and it is the US responsible for its consequences.
Arqium@reddit
Ask US.
stasi_a@reddit
So what’s your response?
screech_owl_kachina@reddit
Humanitarian corridors don’t mean anything these days. Ask Gaza how theirs is working
stasi_a@reddit
No journalist can say its unsafe
TemporalCash531@reddit
The problem is that Iran’s strategy will necessarily push otherwise neutral countries to side against Iran (so with US and Israel) out of necessity to restore transit and avoid economic disaster.
stasi_a@reddit
If the most powerful military in the world can’t force open the transit, what can the rest of the world do?
PrairieFire_withwind@reddit
I feel like the fertilizer issue needs more nuance.
Not every country farms the way the US does and the US has a very specific US based cause of our fertilizer issues. One that can be rectified. It requires different choices and the desiel costs are going to compound this issue. It is almost as if huge monopoly monocrop farms have... Structural weaknesses.
From a farmer:
https://youtu.be/13gQAt7OzxE?si=uv5j8dGNbsUuumgA
Note: i grew up next to a guy who used to spread manure the way this farmern suggests and the demise of small dairy farms in the mid 80s directly led to the corporate monopoly farms we have now.
These are structural issues and structural weaknesses that can and could have been avoided. there ARE legal and tax solutions our government could implement to prevent this structural weakness.
Yes, buy a csa share. Meat, milk, cheese, veg and fruit are all commonly available are various types of csa shares. This is ONE SMALL ACTION YOU CAN TAKE TO HELP REVERSE THIS STRUCTURAL WEAKNESS by supporting those local to you and keeping them in business. And yes, this assumes a certain level of privledge. iF you have privledge then i expect you to use it to help dammit.
GreatPlainsFarmer@reddit
You do know she put up a DAP chart when Urea is the fertilizer that people are actually worried about, don’t you?
And you know that manure doesn’t usually cover nitrogen needs?
Connerys_Toupee@reddit
Farmers need some Urea eh? Let me help out with that zip ...
GreatPlainsFarmer@reddit
Indeed. Urea is named after urine, after all. And it is a very good fertilizer, if only it were kept separate from all the industrial waste that goes into the sewage system.
Connerys_Toupee@reddit
I think we could be a lot less reliant on synthetic fertilizer with sustainable farming practices and rethinking things like our waste. There are 8 billion people on this planet creating 8 billion quarts of pee a day, that's a ton of Urea.
PrairieFire_withwind@reddit
I do know that i have heard many many farmers complain without stating any specifics.
The only specific i have heard 'connected' to the straight is sulphur.
And yes, i get the nitrogen issue, rotate or no till can supply some of that.
I do think that the point stands that this is a structural issue and needs a structural response, not just a make more chemicals. Pivot bio seems to be on point for how we could move forward for corn.
GreatPlainsFarmer@reddit
Have you been involved in any replicated Pivot bio tests? That doesn't solve any structural problems at all. It barely works, and it's only economical at all at current nitrogen prices. It will always be cheaper and more reliable to fix the N with natural gas.
Maybe there will be future improvements in the product, but the current iteration is not a solution to any problems.
If sulfur is the only specific that you've heard connected to the Strait, might I suggest looking up some of Josh Linville's recent content? He's extremely knowledgeable on the ins and outs of all the global fertilizer trade.
Or take a skim through this: https://unctad.org/system/files/official-document/osgttinf2026d1_en.pdf
It's not just the urea that's manufactured in the Persian Gulf that's threatened, but the urea production that's fueled by LNG from there. 30% of Indian domestic urea production is at risk as well.
The USA is actually fairly well positioned as far as fertilizer goes. We import relatively little, and we're pretty efficient with what we use. Other countries will suffer far more than us.
If this were a structural issue specific to the US farm system, then it would hit us as hard as anyone else. That's not the case.
US farmers may well benefit from this. We will have grain to sell, and Asia and Africa may need to buy.
loose_the-goose@reddit
Iran has the right to, and should, say no
lilabp@reddit
How soon will prices be impacted on Europe?
modern_indophilia@reddit
The same Italians who literally spent more money to sink ships full of migrants than it would have cost them to shelter the same people?
Ha. Humanitarian corridor. 🙄
scaratzu@reddit
If I were Iranian I might ponder whether anyone would care to open up a special humanitarian corridor of "not bombing me", before i allow this fertilizer corridor in return.
BTRCguy@reddit
The problem with this is "placing pressure on everyone else" is the intent. The Italian proposal is like telling the bank robbers "how about you release half your hostages in exchange for absolutely nothing".
neonium@reddit
200$ oil already dumpsters the worlds economy, and more then shows everyone. Letting fertilizer through just prevents the worst of the famine, which doesn't do much to show the richer states anyway.
With 200$ oil, food's going to be insanely expensive in NA and Europe anyway, as we import so much.
Also, setting up a system where Iran has de-facto control over the straight does plenty for them, as there's nothing more permanent then a temporary fix. It's taking their military influence over the passage and taking strides to normalize them being the regional hegemon that has say over the straights use.
squailtaint@reddit
You are spot on. “Asking” Iran for this has started the normalization that Iran controls the passage. It’s an acceptance.
Lost_Afropick@reddit
But they do. Like Turkey controls the Bosphorus and access to the Black Sea. Some things just are that way.
Someones_Dream_Guy@reddit
Nah, fuck your "humanitarian" corridors. You enable US and Israel terrorists-you pay for it.
Lost_Afropick@reddit
Didn't Italy ban the US from using bases in it's territory to attack Iran? them and Spain
Antani101@reddit
Except it will not be Italy to pay for it, it'll be Africa to take the brunt of the incoming famine.
No_Branch_5083@reddit
It'll be Italy paying for it when millions of starving refugees from Africa are fleeing north.
Uncommented-Code@reddit
Africa and parts of Asia.
Though Europe will definitely face, once again, face massive refugee movements thanks to actions of the US. Already looking forward to how that will embolden the faschists once more.
Known_Expression1308@reddit
So you want in innocent people to starve?
NyriasNeo@reddit
Italy can call it whatever it wants. The Iranian regime called it "leverage".
Marinah@reddit
So weird how Italy isnt calling for a humanitarian corridor for Gaza or for Cuba. Its only a humanitarian issue if it might affect their own checkbooks I see.
AdmiralAsshat69@reddit
How about everyone does a humanitarian corridor where nobody shoots bombs at anyone?
Physical_Ad5702@reddit
US Military Industrial Complex and Israel say “kick rocks”
fiodorsmama2908@reddit
Reasonable.
Milbso2@reddit
Maybe they should call for the US/Israel to end their unprovoked war of aggression. Iran has a right to defend itself.
fiodorsmama2908@reddit
Huh yes? They attacked Iran for years while in negociations,Israël wiped their feet on them for years and the Strait stayed open. Its when the US decided to stupid all over them that they decided they were done.
I just tend to follow what happens to fertilizer routes as without the nitrogen fertilizer yields drop by 2-3x. Thats a lot of PPL going hungry.
Milbso2@reddit
At the end of the day the best thing that can happen for the world is the collapse of the US empire and petrodollar. Iran right now is showing the entire world how much of a paper tiger the US really is. After all this, all the other countries in the region are going to wonder why they bother bending the knee to the US if Iran can literally just breeze past their defenses and destroy their infrastructure and, if they wanted to, civilian centres.
I do not want to see people starve due to lack of fertiliser passing through Hormuz, but ultimately this is all a result of US global oppression, and the only chance we have of salvaging some kind of future right now is to destroy the hegemony of the USA.
fiodorsmama2908@reddit
Concur. I just don't want to see mass casualities in countries that are not involved.
refusemouth@reddit
Collective punishment is a real bitch. Ask the children of Gaza and southern Lebanon who didn't do anything wrong but are now refugees. Iran is showing the world what it feels like, albeit economically and not directly.
rockasocka99@reddit
It will be felt very directly soon
StatementBot@reddit
The following submission statement was provided by /u/rubbishaccount88:
We are only a few weeks out from a spiral of major oil shocks moving around the globe, beginning in Asia, then Europe. Impacts on food production will be slower to appear but will hit hard. Very much hoping Iran lets something get worked out here for the lives of many many Africans.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1sakcsr/italy_calls_for_hormuz_humanitarian_corridor_for/odwd4t3/