More and more data point that Croatia has surpassed Slovenia in local purchasing power. Thoughts?
Posted by West-Razzmatazz2@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 109 comments
0xPianist@reddit
Ok Toni
Desolate_One666@reddit
Come to Bulgaria. They say our average monthly salary is 1300 eur (roughly). But my salary is 549 eur (net) and that's what many people earn here especially if you live in a smaller town like me. People earn more in the capital and the bigger cities, but the reality for 70% of the people is totally different than these useless statistics.
Needless to say that prices rocketed after the euro. What was 1 lev is now 1 eur, but my salary is the same, not gone twice up.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
What!? 550eur?!!!
Desolate_One666@reddit
My salary as a cameraman/ video editor in a regional TV news channel, yes - 549 eur after taxes plus 100 eur in coupons for food. That's the reality for many people if you are not a doctor, a dentist, lawyer, IT etc or in the system as a whole. Life is fucked here and Europe knows it.
Prices are higher than in Germany and France.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Holy shit that's awful. How do you physically survive. I get your annual salary by about the 8th January.
I guess that's why you have huge emigration.
Desolate_One666@reddit
Well, I'm not married and don't have children, live in my own house, so don't pay rent. But to afford anything more expensive I have to save for a long time. I don't smoke nor drink, so this is a huge bonus. HOnestly - I don't need much to live. I'm not addicted to food or anyhting, although I have expensive hobbies - mountain biking and music (vinyl, CDs, shirts). I don;t have a car, becouse the town I live in is not big and that's it.
You cut from everywhere to make it. But I don't buy cheap shoes or clothing for example, becouse the quality stuff pays off with time.
Yeah, that's why we have huge emigration, but many people have returned becouse it got harder even in the West.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
Shit man, my starting salary in Bosnia in 2016 was 500e net....
Fuck those guys rlly
Desolate_One666@reddit
That's the truth here in Bulgaria. And I live in a regional town, but a smaller one with about 40 000 people. Yes, Bulgaria is still shit, it's even worse than we were before joining the EU.
Don't believe what you read in statistics - reality is 100% different. Every hour they tell us how good we live and how rich we've gotten since we adopted the euro.
The reality is exactly the opposite and yet the people are so asleep it's unreal.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
Im still in shock about 500e, geez.
Sorry man, and its not like you do some menial thing, your work requires experience and expertise
Desolate_One666@reddit
Yes, I know, but that's that. If you don;t like it - the door is over there, nobody id holding you with a gun to your head. But in a small town, to find a job like that one is impossible. Other options are to be a factory worker for the same amount, only you'll work your ass for the same kind of money. Modern slavery and exploitation.
At least I'm in an office, have internet and no boss on my head, plus I have long lunch brakes and I can leave work at 4PM. So 9-16 with a 2 hour lunch break isn't that bad after all, haha. But still, damn...
sqjam@reddit
You should just go the western countries then.
Desolate_One666@reddit
No, thanks. Money is not everything, at least for me.
sqjam@reddit
I respect and undestand that :)
Desolate_One666@reddit
Thank you. My whole world is here, being alone is not a nice option. many people went abroad for money and now 90% of them are back but have nothing besides illness and broken health and psyche.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
Home is where the heart is!
Desolate_One666@reddit
Heart is in the Balkans!
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
He makes a good point about food.
The amount of times I've seen white collar professionals on big salaries (20k plus euros a month) live in Germany over Switzerland because food is cheaper. Dude you are burning 1000 a week on tax. How much are you eating.
Dovaskarr@reddit
When Toni Milun talks, it is the truth. He is a good guy, helped a ton of us with his math classes online as well. He knows his numbers
Existing_Inspector44@reddit
I visited both countries, for me they look more or less the same, maybe Slovenia it's a little bit more polished, but honestly, Croatia has top infrastructure(roades & bridges), it's funny that the beltway of Ljubliana is always full, any day, any hour :)))
As I understood, Croatia had a fast comeback in the previous years.
I think both 2 of them are very close to Italian salaries, and will eventually reach Italian levels in a few years. However, both of them are small countries, well organized, but for being able in the future to reach DE or NL economy, they'll need heavy investment in IT and R&D, also some measures to combat very high inflation on food items and energy.
I like that you guys speak English!
BabaRogata@reddit
I'm Croatian. Living standards are improving, but Croatia is still a shithole. I'm not sure which part you've actually been to?
Even if we surpass them in salaries, it’ll take us about 15 years to reach where they are now in terms of infrastructure and urban planning.
Fear_mor@reddit
Odakle si ako smijem pitat?
lukav68@reddit
absolutely agree, also coming from a croatian
harvey_croat@reddit
indeed
LegioXI89@reddit
Slovenia is on western level for decades now, although Croatia reached the numbers the reality is, Slovenia is still way above
s4ch@reddit
Možda se trebao ostat držat matematike umjesto ekonomije.
Dovaskarr@reddit
Ekonomija je matematika.
s4ch@reddit
Tako započinju ratovi 😂 I fizika ima puno podsetova pa ne želiš da ti aerodinamiku aviona odrađuje nuklearni fizičar.
TheShroomLord@reddit
We in Serbia also watched his lectures hahaha only love for that man
crivycouriac@reddit
Somehow they still haven’t managed to make their inland look wealthier than Ukraine
West-Razzmatazz2@reddit (OP)
If you had 4 years of war and distruction, you probably wouldn’t either.
Pineloko@reddit
centar zagreba izgleda kao da je prošle godine rat završio
nije war and destruction nego grozan nemar građana
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Germany was devastated after World War 2, but it is now the leading country in Europe.
deviendrais@reddit
Germany was rebuilt by western powers just to show the world how awesome capitalism was.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Yes, and Croatia also receives aid from the EU funds.
RiverNo6782@reddit
it wasnt nearly as comperhensive as marshall plan was for germany after ww2
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Croatia actually received more.
West-Razzmatazz2@reddit (OP)
Difference between East and west Germany is still very visible today as a byproduct of communism, what’s your point? Some areas of Croatia that were destroyed but had perspective got rebuilt (Dubrovnik). Some others (Dalmatian hinterland) not as much.
Kooky-Locksmith-1274@reddit
Wdym? Inland north-west is the most developed part
CamelAmbitious7425@reddit
Even North-West of Croatia looks less developed than Slovenia.
Kooky-Locksmith-1274@reddit
Who’s disputing that?
GCdotSup@reddit
I don't think anyone in Slovenia cares if Croatia surpasses us as long as we continue to have economic growth. I wish our Croatia brothers success.
pavol100@reddit
Next thing is annexation
electrash_@reddit
Love seeing both countries thrive
krkrkrneki@reddit
We are drowning in taxes and at the same having ineffective state that keeps spending money we do not have.
mm19761976@reddit
Meanwhile in our company hired 20 croats:))). And there isn’t single Slovenian working there. Statistic is BS…
bannedandfurious@reddit
Also that study doesn't include Slovenian untaxed mandatory bonuses (2x holiday bonus of at least one minimum wage - 1000€, work lunch bonus of around 7€ per day, daily commuting bonus of 0.21€ per kilometer).
It is not that simple. Avg. wage is a horrible metric, median wage is way better. Mostly because the croatian top earners are way less taxed. At 2000€ gross there is basically no difference in taxes between SLO and HR. At 10000€ gross monthly, the difference in taxes is about 20% and if we take a look at even higher wages the diference gets even bigger.
The person who started that story in Slovenia is the CEO of Nova Ljubljanska Banka, who earns over 300k a year (and ofc he is neocon).
West-Razzmatazz2@reddit (OP)
It goes both ways as in Croatia there’s a huge amount of unreported income, especially in tourism. My monthly net salary is 1450€ but when I add payment I’ve received in cash “on hands” it comes out to 2000€ per month.
bannedandfurious@reddit
It is the same here.
And working as S.P. (sole proprietorship, which is effectively taxed at 4%) instead of being employed. Or even employment for minimum wage and getting paid on your S.P.
West-Razzmatazz2@reddit (OP)
Estimates are Croatian shadow economy is approx 6% larger then Slovenian.
sqjam@reddit
LOL, I love this!
Lets make it a competition who cheats more.
Every-Fennel4802@reddit
Come on, that's Balkan, we take pride in playing the system.
Longjumping-Bee-6977@reddit
Croatia has more population
bannedandfurious@reddit
It is calculated as percent of entire GDP
RegionSignificant977@reddit
That's rookie numbers. We have people with net 450 that in fact earn as much as you. Lol.
Odd_Bodybuilder_4772@reddit
Well Croatia also has a lot untaxed payments that are not included. Maximum 3000€ per year that you can receive. There is also lunch bonus as well as commuting bonuses.
Median in Croatia is around 1350€.
bannedandfurious@reddit
We have a median at around 1650€.
In regards to bonuses, any decent company pays out max bonuses, for me it was 2x2400 last year + around 300€ a month of costs.
My final though, we are still incredibly underpaid. I work on EU projects and I'm looking to get out of this Balkan hellhole.
Ill_Star4444@reddit
And this alone is probably more than any Croatian with a salary under 2000eur net can save a year. Of course if he doesnt live with parents and if he rents.
HighlanderAlien@reddit
Slovenian median before tax 2200e Slovenian median after tax 1400e So 1400 + 150 (food regres) + 50 -??? (0,21€/km or 80% bus ticket) = 1600-1800€ every month + mandatory 1350 holiday regress 1x year + 600 mandatory christmas regress
Rockness88@reddit
Yep, my gross salary is 2100, so net around 1400, and i totaled in 1910 eur per month last year with all the added stuff, 2x regres, some sunday bonuses, lunch and transport. So comparing just net salary is really incorrect.
Denturart@reddit
The difference is that in Slovenia these are all mandatory by law. The average croatian employee receives around 130€ of these untaxed payments while average Slovenian employee receives more than 400€ per month.
Here is more comprehensive Eurostat statistic on all disposable income (you can select mean or median and also eur or PPS):
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/ilc_di03__custom_20821121/default/table
Awkward_Pace_4440@reddit
I think both Croatia and Slovenia have a lot of work to do to improve the situation. They are nowhere close to nations like Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands etc..
GallusSpirit@reddit
jaz kupujem kebab in je v ljubljani cenejsi kot v zagrebu, ampak v zagrebu je boljesga okusa in bolj kvalitetno meso
CypriotGreek@reddit
The prices is in Croatia though are through the roof, especially in Zagreb and ESPECIALLY in the coastal towns. Half the prices in the capital were higher than in Greece. I don’t know how much good this does when everything has gotten so much more expensive.
Familiar_Anywhere815@reddit
Right, but Croatia also has 20+% higher average salaries than Greece. It's not surprising that some prices are also higher.
I also share that impression though. Zagreb definitely feels noticeably more expensive than Thessaloniki for example. I haven't been to Athens.
CypriotGreek@reddit
I would understand if the prices were 20% higher, but they’re not only 20% higher. They are either significantly higher, or the prices in Greece are low and I’ve just been gaslit my entire life into believing they’re high, which can’t be the case.
Familiar_Anywhere815@reddit
Prices in Greece (specifically as a tourist) are honestly not very high compared to many places I've seen.
For eating out for example, Greece is cheaper than every western European country, cheaper than Croatia and Slovenia, cheaper than Belgrade (not Serbia in general), cheaper than Turkey, cheaper than Czechia, and roughly on par with Poland, Slovakia and the Baltics.
I have no idea about rent, bills, etc. this is just my impression from where I've traveled.
Al3k5an9ar@reddit
How is it cheaper than Belgrade but not Serbia in general? Belgrade is much more expensive than any other city but close second is Novi Sad. I’m asking a genuine question, I’m not criticising you 😁
RiverNo6782@reddit
if something costs 100 in Belgrade but 75 in Greece its cheaper than in Belgrade. but if that something costs 50 in rest of Serbia than Greece is not cheaper than Serbia in general.
West-Razzmatazz2@reddit (OP)
According to numbeo local purchasing power in Athens is over 30% lower then Zagreb, while the prices themselves don’t show that huge difference.
Could it be you were just sitting in restaurants and shops in city centers, which usually tend to be more pricey?
CypriotGreek@reddit
Honestly, I can’t fully make sense of those stats, because Athens can feel pretty inconsistent price-wise. I didn’t grow up there, I was raised in Crete, where things are way cheaper, but Athens still felt cheap to me.
But the thing is, Athens is huge. You’ve got massive differences depending on the area, places like Kifisia are obviously way pricier than somewhere like Korydallos. So averages don’t really tell the whole story.
Also, comparing Athens to Zagreb isn’t exactly 1:1. Athens is a massive metropolitan area of like 3 million people, so the range of prices is much wider, the city of Athens is literally bigger than the country of Croatia.
GloomyLaw9603@reddit
Lmao what.
"The city of Athens is bigger than the country of Croatia"
CypriotGreek@reddit
Athens city (without its suburbs) has a population of 3.7 million (not including legal and illegal immigrants).
The Athens metropolitan area has a population of around 5 million.
The population of Croatia is approximately 3.8 million
What’s confusing about this?
GloomyLaw9603@reddit
The word (or rather, term) you're looking for is "more populous".
CypriotGreek@reddit
I haven’t seen a grammar Nazi in the past 10 years I thought you guys had gone extinct.
GloomyLaw9603@reddit
That's not even being a grammar nazi though. What you said has a completely different meaning to what you meant. It's not like you missed a letter or two, you missed the entire meaning of the word/phrase, lmao.
CypriotGreek@reddit
That’s exactly what a grammar nazi that would say…
West-Razzmatazz2@reddit (OP)
He is talking about local purchasing power so it def does matter. Croatia has higher salaries then Greece so it’s expected prices are higher.
As far as tourism, Croatia has a lot smaller coast and much more per capita visits then Greece so it’s also logical tourist towns would have somewhat higher prices then Greece tho in my personal opinion from 2 visits to Greece, it’s not a big difference.
With that being said, inflation is a cause for concern here but so far since covid, salary growth has outgrown inflation.
Pozaa@reddit
Well we have made all the wrong decisions since 2008 so it's not a surprise. Kudos to our Croatian brothers tho 👌🇭🇷
Kreol1q1q@reddit
Ha! Unlike you fools, we just made no decisions at all!
avrend@reddit
For a brief period when we had a prime minister that didn't speak Croatian. Too bad it didn't work out...
RiverNo6782@reddit
iirc it was during his term when we had "technical government" that we finally moved out of 2008 recession. Sometimes not doing anything is best thing to do :D
Pozaa@reddit
Sometimes it's better to just not touch anything rather than actively mismanage 😅
electrash_@reddit
Am I the only one that wishes we had highway from Rupa to Postojna, so we are better connected and can drink coffee in Ljubljana more often
tompa_zg@reddit
Meanwhile me:
-- buying new tyres in Slovenia
-- buying everything I can on Amazon DE
bannedandfurious@reddit
for tires, nothing beats "liderpnevmatik", trust me I have to buy 3-4 sets of tires each year
VirusSlo@reddit
Maybe for you. I ordered there for the first time this year and got three new and one old tire. Not a disaster, but still kinda fucked up.
tompa_zg@reddit
I went to Furlan. It's a 30 minute drive, and great service. Used them years before as well.
SnooLobsters1990@reddit
Toni Milun ne zna o cemu prica. Razgovorao je s jednim covjekom i mislim da je Ljubljana cijela Slovenija. A Slovenija je puno manje centralizirala od Hrvatske.
NuclearDisaster5@reddit
4.8 inflation in RH.
We have the power to purchase every single thing that is more expensive then in Slovenia. The power comes from idiotism, not economy.
ConinTheNinoC@reddit
I wish everything good to all people from the Balkans.
backhand_english@reddit
Statistics are like a bikini. Revealing a lot, yet hiding the most important parts.
Tiny-Mulberry-2114@reddit
Don't believe a word in this. Only delusional people will say us Croats are richer than Slovenes.
West-Razzmatazz2@reddit (OP)
Well, you’re a communist so can’t say I’m suprised you don’t believe economic stats. To do so, you’d have to be able to read them first.
sqjam@reddit
This "story" went public because we had elections here.
Right wingers were triggered as fuck by it :D
I do not care. I can be only happy for you guys if you earned more.
Tiny-Mulberry-2114@reddit
I'd be happy too but it's far from the truth even the media checked on it and found out it's total BS. Not sure what happened to Milun but it seems like he started spreading fake news which I never expected from him considering he's well respected individual.
leftcassette@reddit
Susramlje.
Living-Past-9038@reddit
This is what happens when your government is lead by populist left and is implementing economic programe of slovenian version of Možemo (Levica). Slovenia has higher gdp per capita and gross wages than Croatia but because of our burecraucy and high taxes we actually have lower purchasing power and its not only Croatia also Estonia and Czech Republic surpassed Slovenia in net wages despite having smaller gross wages. Our problem is that our right wing is leader by another right wing populist Janša who is our version of Orban so long term we are fucked either way.
sqjam@reddit
Ne se tolk jezit no :D
Living-Past-9038@reddit
Boš reko, da kaj ni res?
sqjam@reddit
To kar si ti napisal je tvoje osebno mnenje, ki temelji na čustvih in ne na dejstvih.
Lahko pa prebereš kar so napisali ostali slovenci in hrvatje v tem postu in boš videl, da prav vsi pravzaprav ovržejo tvojo trditev o stanju pri nas.
In tam lahko tud številke vidiš, ki ti pravjo, da se motiš.
Living-Past-9038@reddit
Kako ne temelji na dejstvih, Češka nas je prehitela po BDP na prebivalca po kupni moči ter neto plači ter Estonija nas je prehitela po neto plači. To je statistika ne čustva. Misliš, da nobena druga država na svetu nima potnih stroškov in malice. Govorima o državah, ki so še 5 let zaostajale za nami po neto ter bruto plači brez, da prištevaš razne malice in potne stroške. Sedaj pa nas dohitevajo po 4 letih Golobove vlade.
Ne vem če se hrvat moti, Hrvaška ima tudi več sive ekonomija kot Slovenija ter cenejše nepremičnine. To so ti tudi komentatorji napisali, da ja Slovenija ima cenejše osnovne življenjske dobrine v trgovinah ampak imajo zato hrvati dosti cenejše nepremičnine in položnice, to pa zajemi večji del stroškov povprečnega gospodinjstva kot hrana. Problem je, da se trenutna tolče po prstih kako uspešna je, čeprav je objektivno če pogledaš vse indikatorje pogrnila na celi črti. Gospodarska konvergenca Češke, Hrvaške, Estonije ter baltskih držav napram Sloveniji je bistveno hitrejša kot je bila prej. Čakalne vrste v zdravstvu so se podaljšale. Primankljaj kljub polni zaposlenosti znaša 3% BDP in bo letos še večji, glede na to, da že v prvih 3 mesecih presega 700 milijonov. Evo ti prilagam članek iz rtv Fiskalni svet opozarja na rast javne porabe: rast odhodkov skoraj dvakrat višja od rasti prihodkov - RTV SLO . Kar je pa najbolj ironično v času tako imenovane socialne vlade se je tudi stopnja relativne revščine povečala na najvišjo stopnjo od 2014 naprej. Želim si za Slovenijo eno pro razvojno vlado, ki pa bo hkrati demokratična je to visoko pričakovanje? Vlado, ki bo imela uravnotežen proračun ter se bo zavedala, da je treba tudi nekaj ustvarit da lahko deliš. Pa ne želim si ne Goloba ne Janše, ker oba nas dolgoročno vodita v propad.
StevenAdamsInDallas@reddit
Who cares? Good if both countries do well, bad if one doesn't (or both).
sqjam@reddit
I can be only happy for Croatia
sqjam@reddit
I am only happy for Croatia. Good for them!
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Statistics is flawed by the gray economy. I would imagine that people would feel better on their home country even if their purchase power drops a little. If they have a place to live the purchase power might be way better than if they have to pay rent. Even if there is a significant difference. Years ago, the differences were sometimes very high. Now when it's not that big, some people are returning to be with their friends and family.
qlwkerjqewlkr@reddit
who cares which of the balkan states is currently on top? ur forever balkan poors
2_bars_of_wifi@reddit
Well you are just right there with us
Knj1gga@reddit
Bro talks about real salaries and proceeds to not use median.
"Wow guys look how high our BDP is! You guys are living better than you ever were!"
spielferderber@reddit
I don't know why we are comparing rent, since only 10% of Slovenians and Croatians rent.