Can a FO declare an emergency without a captains approval?

[-]

Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

The FO can certainly say “Mayday” on the radio all they want but if the Captain and FO are so disconnected that they can’t even acknowledge what’s happening then CRM has completely broken down and you’ve got much higher problems than just telling ATC.

Reply

[-]

BandicootOnly4598@reddit

I mean, I can think of a few situations where this could happen without anyone doing anything explicitly wrong, but they involve the captain either becoming incapacitated or stuck in the lav.

Reply

[-]

jbm747@reddit

Or a car on the main deck that they decided to sit in and got locked in 🤔

Reply

[-]

CrappyTan69@reddit

CRM? Layman here.

Reply

[-]

SteelRoses@reddit

Crew Resource Management; basically making sure everyone in the flight crew is communicating clearly and being heard instead of social pressures and egos getting in the way of handling the problem

Reply

[-]

fliesupsidedown@reddit

Side question from someone who has only ever been single pilot. What happens in the situation that say the captain is doing something dangerous, or not preventing a dangerous situation. How does CRM say to handle it if discussion isn't working?

Reply

[-]

slipstall@reddit

Well you’re going to point out the discrepancy. I.e. “Airspeed low” (or whatever SOP language is for a corrective callout at a company). And then you escalate from there if there isn’t a response from the flying pilot. “Airspeed low, add power.” “Airspeed low, Unstable (1000 ft or less generally), Go Around.” *Pilot flying doesn’t want to go around? Call the tower “Tower Callsign XXXX is going around”. This could prompt a response from someone who is so locked in and not hearing you or force the hand of someone doing something dangerous. If none of that works then personally I’m taking the aircraft and going around myself. Saying “my aircraft” and taking the controls from someone is a pretty serious event and there’s gonna be a conversation about it afterwords but it’s better than having an incident. Like most people have said on this thread though, with CRM it’s a team environment. We both want to get through our day without having to file an ASAP, make an event report, or get a naughty call from the company. Most times I’ve had to call people out on something, it is rapidly addressed and corrected.

Reply

[-]

ab0ngcd@reddit

When CRM isn’t happening, then you really have an emergency.

Reply

[-]

SnooChocolates2923@reddit

Usually there's a not so professional co-worker question in there somewhere. Like; "Gee Whiz! John! Are you doing that on purpose?!" Before the "My Airplane! I'm going around!"

Reply

[-]

slipstall@reddit

Haha! Yup there’s usually an expletive or “good lord” sprinkled in for effect.

Reply

[-]

brucebrowde@reddit

When you called people out, how serious where the situations?

Reply

[-]

slipstall@reddit

With the low airspeed example, for landing anyway, my comfort level is -5 knots and slowing. Some people have different comfort levels so that can produce a response that’s different. Not the most dire situations on the surface, but generally trending in the wrong direction.

Reply

[-]

fliesupsidedown@reddit

Thanks for the in depth reply. I appreciate it.

Reply

[-]

Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Keep the crash axe handy.

Reply

[-]

PRISONER_709@reddit

That's why it's behind the right seat. Together with the extinguisher

Reply

[-]

Ok-Selection4206@reddit

In some airplanes. On the 767 its on the rear bulkhead in the cockpit behind the observer seat. Fire extinguisher also.

Reply

[-]

FreeDwooD@reddit

That's also part of CRM training. If the captain is doing something truly dangerous then the FO is required to intervene. For example, you're on approach and visibility is bad, and the captain decides to push below minimums to find the runway(very common occurrence in the past that has lead to *many* CFIT incidents). The FO would call out that the captain is below minimums and to increase power/climb. If the captain doesn't do that within a very short time then the FO is required to declare a go around and take control. Pilots are drilled to immediately accept a go around call if either of them does it. If at that point the captain starts to fight for controls then you got an unprecedented situation.

Reply

[-]

Silmarlion@reddit

Your question is already answered but to add extra, there are phrases designed for this. For example in my company “you must listen” or “I am uncomfortable” are phrases you have to respond to. If the captain or fo says one of these phrases and other one doesn’t give explanation to their actions(or even after the explanation other one is still uncomfortable) or change what they are doing they would have to explain their reasoning to the board and most likely get fired. Even if what they are doing is safe they have to keep the other pilot in the loop and answer their concerns. Only situation i can think of is like they are burning up there is absolutely no time and one of them is doing something that they can think is the only way then they wouldn’t get fired but almost all other times there is time to talk and have a working crm.

Reply

[-]

flyingkea@reddit

There’s an escalation process. You don’t have to do all the steps in order to progress - if the situation needs it you might jump down several steps. My company uses RAISE R - relay information (eg ATC cleared us to descend). A - Ask (see if they’re aware, seek clarification. Eg when were you planning to descend?). I - Indicate concern/I statement - (I think we should start our descent now). S - Solution (Lower the nose, Stop, increase Rate of descent). E - Emergency (Captain you must act now! Go Around”. And if all that fails then take over control of the aircraft. As an example, I was in the sim with a Captain, and we were on final, when the sim instructor threw a curveball at us. Because ya know, sim. Anyway, Captain was flying and kinda froze/overthought things. I saw that, and said “Go Around,” which helped cut through the confusion enough that a decision was made and led to a safe outcome. But there wasn’t time to go through the whole process either. Or another common example is coming in to land via a STAR. That has speed restrictions on it. Sometimes people just forget to dial the speed back, so when you get a close as you’re comfortable with, just asking “When were you planning to slow down?” It’s very often met with a grateful “oops totally missed that, thanks”

Reply

[-]

Darksirius@reddit

To expand on this: CRM was heavily developed and implemented world wide after the Tenerife accident that involved two 747s colliding on a runway in 1977, killing over 500 people making it the - still - most deadly aviation accident ever. Before then, it was pretty much: The captain has the FINAL say - always. If you read into the accident I mentioned, you'll see that, even a VERY veteran and experienced pilot can make a major, major mistake. However, the FO really didn't speak up, because, at the time, it may have gotten him fired for "over ruling / stepping the captains decision". After that, how the flight deck is handled was changed to make it a team environment where everyone is included in critical decisions.

Reply

[-]

EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit

Nathan Fielder has a great show about this on HBO

Reply

[-]

pandabear6969@reddit

I got to the episode that he glazed all over Sully for asking “You got any other ideas” to Skiles a few seconds before hitting the water, like that was the gods shining example of a CA that gets along with FO’s. The he dressed up as a baby in diapers and breastfed from a giant fake lady’s tit. I was out.

Reply

[-]

seang239@reddit

Uh, that part you said right there at the end. Is that a normal thing for this guy? Is it a serious show? I see someone referencing it here in a serious capacity, but, what the fuck?

Reply

[-]

Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit

I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck that episode was about. It's a hard sell at this point to convince me this was t just an elaborate ruse by him to get a way to write off flight training, get someone to buy him a type rating, and then get paid to actually fly a plane full of people.

Reply

[-]

FreeDwooD@reddit

>CRM was heavily developed and implemented world wide after the Tenerife accident that involved two 747s colliding on a runway in 1977 Tenerife was not the reason for CRM. It was one of a good dozen incidents in the 70s where bad communication among the flight crew or strict hierarchies killed. Tenerife was the most high profile incident, but the ideas for what became CRM had been cooking for a while. >even a VERY veteran and experienced pilot can make a major, major mistake. However, the FO really didn't speak up, because, at the time, it may have gotten him fired for "over ruling / stepping the captains decision". That is true, the captain took off without take off clearance and investigators made the well founded assumption that the FO or flight engineer realized it but didn't say anything. The captain had just given the FO his 747 type rating a few months ago, that is the mother of all authority gradients. Still, the Captain's decision was one link in a very long failure chain. Between the fog, the small airport, the missing ground radar and the PanAm plane using a different call sign at a crucial time, lots of things went wrong. Swiss cheese model of safety. I'm not saying that the captain didn't make a gigantic mistake, but like with nearly every crash, he's not solely at fault.

Reply

[-]

bridgefour_@reddit

Someone please share this breakthrough with the boomer regional captains I fly with that still have ZERO concept of CRM. It’s their plane, their command, and I’m their flap operator bitch

Reply

[-]

Ok-Selection4206@reddit

A friend of mine said he was a "cabin temperature control specialist" as an fo on the MD80

Reply

[-]

fskhalsa@reddit

I believe in aviation parlance, that would be ‘FOB’. And then, since the other guy is operating the sticks, he would be known as an ‘SOB’.

Reply

[-]

mikerulu@reddit

To expand on this expansion united flight 173 that crash in Portland in 1978 cemented CRM. That was a textbook case of no CRM in the flight deck. It’s basically cited as the crash that started CRM.

Reply

[-]

Gorn_DNA@reddit

CRM in a nutshell - don’t be a dick.

Reply

[-]

Weekly-Language6763@reddit

"Captains Right Mate"

Reply

[-]

Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Nope...its like wanting to have a kid...it's two yeses or it's a no.

Reply

[-]

EmotioneelKlootzak@reddit

Cultural Resource Management. The captain is probably so busy digging a 1x1 meter test unit, cataloging artifacts (aka literal garbage), and experiencing lingering alcohol induced dehydration that will eventually make him a heat casualty, that the first officer has to do stuff on his own. At least, that's how it was in my line of work, so take it with a grain of salt...

Reply

[-]

SirEDCaLot@reddit

Crew Resource Management. Back in the early days of aviation- Captain Was The Boss, PERIOD. You don't question your Captain, you don't doubt your Captain, what they say is right no matter how wrong you little inexperienced first officer might think it is. This... led to some problems... for the simple fact that the Captain isn't always right, and may not always have all the information. And by problems I mean crashes and dead aviators and dead passengers. So like a great many aviation regulations and best practices, CRM is written in blood. CRM is a set of concepts for how multiple pilots in the cockpit should interact. Among those, that a Captain should/must listen to and consider the input of a first officer. And it sets a framework for how the two pilots work together as a team to safely conduct the flight. That includes how to respond to emergencies. To be clear- the Captain is still in command. However there's an expectation of cooperation and teamwork. So what the parent user was saying is that if you have a situation where the Captain is quite resoundingly sure everything is fine, and the First Officer is so sure there is an emergency that they want to declare it on the radio against the Captain's orders, that teamwork and collaboration has broken down. And in that situation you've really got two problems- 1. whatever the emergency is, and 2. that the Captain and FO are conflicting against each other rather than working together to solve the problem (which may well be a bigger problem than the actual emergency).

Reply

[-]

witheringtie975@reddit

Speak up, regardless of position

Reply

[-]

CeznaFL30@reddit

Team work makes the dream work.

Reply

[-]

iLOVEr3dit@reddit

Crew resource management

Reply

[-]

JijiSpitz@reddit

Aka for the layman: teamwork

Reply

[-]

FishPilot@reddit

Crew resource management. It’s basically how a crew works together

Reply

[-]

pandabear6969@reddit

In which case….. it is an emergency.

Reply

[-]

Dangerous_Mud4749@reddit

I came here to say this. Now I’ll just second it.

Reply

[-]

x4457@reddit

1) Declaration of an emergency is really just notification of requirement for priority handling from ATC. That's all. 2) This almost certainly wouldn't ever happen. That's just not how modern crew dynamics work in the western world.

Reply

[-]

RecentAmbition3081@reddit

Try Pan Pan Pan for priority handling. They don’t even know the meaning of it anymore!

Reply

[-]

BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit

You don't even know how to say it right...

Reply

[-]

RecentAmbition3081@reddit

All the Reddit experts. Flame away, you really don’t matter

Reply

[-]

Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Pon....

Reply

[-]

TaxiForDeparture@reddit

Pan x3 would be incorrect. It’s Pan Pan x3.

Reply

[-]

shrunkenhead041@reddit

In the western world, unlikely. I can think of a few overseas accidents where a western-trained FO might have declared, overruling a "less well trained" CA. Modern CRM training is a blessed thing.

Reply

[-]

FrankCobretti@reddit

Sure. On medium-long haul flights with a captain and two first officers, the three pilots take turns going to the designated rest area (on my flight, it’s a curtained-off lay-flat seat in first class). If an emergency happens while the captain’s on break and the two FOs are flying the jet, the FOs wouldn’t hesitate to declare it.

Reply

[-]

Agreeable-Gap-4160@reddit

The question is asked by sometime someone with poor understating of CRM and multi crew operations and/or never had a command. A question for OP: Why would a captain declare an emergency without consulting the FO? Yes, there is rank and experience inside a cockpit....but you are in it together, you should be working together to resolve the situation. The premise of your question indicates a breakdown of CRM.

Reply

[-]

TrueNorth_360@reddit

Absolutely! -AVIATE -NAVIGATE -COMMUNICATE If the captain is distracted or task saturated, it's the FO's duty to speak up

Reply

[-]

3PartsRum_1PartAir@reddit

There’s no world where the FO would have to rush to shout mayday mayday mayday on frequency without the captain knowing about what’s happening

Reply

[-]

Turkstache@reddit

A few things to add here. There is nothing explicitly preventing an FO from declaring an emergency for the flight. The PIC has final say, sure, but if a subordinate crewmember was in the right, I don't think there would be a punishment applied for declaring out of turn in any organization's opspecs. Typical CRM practices would have any crew working within their PF/PM roles to handle an emergency. More than likely they would both be highly aware of the situation anyway. In the natural flow of these procedures (especially when thorougly trained) there will be an appropriate place in the flow to declare an emergency. It wouldn't necessarily be wrong for a PM FO to automatically declare at the appropriate time (and the captain will likely direct it anyway as a part of their own habits). There are many situations where declaring an emergency is a given (like catastrophic failures of essential systems). If in a congested or time-sensitive scenario, you'd want an FO to be ready to make the call without waiting for approval. If the PIC is out of the cockpit to eat/sleep, it would be foolish to expect the crew to seek out the PIC and get approval to declare for dire situations. I dont think any captain would be upset if they completed the procedure, declared the emergency, and notified after the fact.

Reply

[-]

3PartsRum_1PartAir@reddit

The issue that I can see is captains that don’t want to declare an emergency because they don’t want to do paperwork. If CRM breaks down because of that they aren’t fit to be a captain at that point but I think you have the best comment here.

Reply

[-]

hypnotoad23@reddit

Something like this happened at YX and created a true shitstorm

Reply

[-]

Prttyflyforawhiteguy@reddit

Ahhh yes the famous D.P, he’s now at NK

Reply

[-]

hypnotoad23@reddit

He interviewed at AA and was rightfully told to piss off.

Reply

[-]

Frogblaster77@reddit

And don't forget the HO via the MPC, I heard that that once he FT'd all of the QQRs were completely FRT until the end of the week.

Reply

[-]

Prttyflyforawhiteguy@reddit

This makes my heart happy, he had a real ability to piss off everyone that came into contact with him. I remember a did a turn with him to FDF and we got ramp checked by their version of the FAA. The sweetest lady came in and politely asked us if she could review the logbook and our certs. He almost made her cry with how rude he was to her

Reply

[-]

hypnotoad23@reddit

Typical

Reply

[-]

Baystate411@reddit

I was a 5 year brickyardigan, what are you referring to?

Reply

[-]

Prttyflyforawhiteguy@reddit

I’m referring to a specific person that nobody liked

Reply

[-]

Baystate411@reddit

I'm sure I know the name but can't piece it together from this. All good

Reply

[-]

DM_me_ur_tailwheel@reddit

Details?

Reply

[-]

hypnotoad23@reddit

CA declared fuel emergency when they had plenty of gas. He didn’t want to miss his commute. FO told ATC it wasn’t an emergency, chaos ensued

Reply

[-]

Cats155@reddit

Sounds like somthing Terminator Taylor would do.

Reply

[-]

swakid8@reddit

Wait what?

Reply

[-]

CropdustingOMdesk@reddit

ATC here We don’t care at all. I just tell the supe you’re not an emergency anymore and never give it another thought

Reply

[-]

x4457@reddit

So not exactly what the OP had in mind.

Reply

[-]

Worried-Ebb-1699@reddit

Yes. Anyone can. But assuming the captain is fully capable of executing the captain duties, will certainly have to consider their options. Why did the FO do it? What caused the Fo to just call one out? And so on. Assuming it’s justified/ warranted, it’d be a debrief item certainly. If the captain is unable to perform ( I.e incapacitated) then declaring is truly your only choice.

Reply

[-]

chicagoderp@reddit

The ATC will respond up: "Is this the captain speaking? Oh, did you have the captain's approval?"

Reply

[-]

informallyundecided@reddit

I thought it was funny :/

Reply

[-]

ResoluteFalcon@reddit

ATC would not ask that. They would say something along the lines of "I understand that you're declaring an emergency. Do you need any assistance?" or "What's the nature of the emergency." You don't know what you're talking about there bud.

Reply

[-]

chicagoderp@reddit

I'm shocked that some of you don't understand basic sarcasm. This is a really stupid question from a subreddit that is just going to the bottom of the barrel in quality.

Reply

[-]

Cessnateur@reddit

The thing is, it's on you to select an objectively funny joke. Don't pout and call people retards just because yours didn't land.

Reply

[-]

chicagoderp@reddit

The edit was added purely to slow down the try hards (like yourself) from piling on about how wrong I am…. If I really cared I’d just delete the comment, but it will stay up. Take it the chin. But yeh man you’re so right.

Reply

[-]

ResoluteFalcon@reddit

Yeah ok derpie. Good job downvoting me. You don't have /s in your post. The downvotes and my comment are justified.

Reply

[-]

eclipseaug@reddit

Out of the hundreds of emergency/crash investigation videos I’ve seen, I don’t think I’ve ever heard an instance of ATC asking who’s making the emergency call or the emergency crew prefacing their emergency with the fact that they are Captain/FO

Reply

[-]

chicagoderp@reddit

I know, this is clearly sarcasm. If OP spend any amount of time doing any research before asking their question they would have learned this.

Reply

[-]

eclipseaug@reddit

Yeah you can’t really tell sarcasm over text in this instance. Without the /s you just look like your spreading misinformation then getting butthurt that it didn’t land

Reply

[-]

Clemsonfvr1974@reddit (OP)

Really?

Reply

[-]

x4457@reddit

No.

Reply

[-]

ApatheticSkyentist@reddit

Bro he's got a complex and tail wheel. With the new flair verification we should take him seriously.

Reply

[-]

ResoluteFalcon@reddit

He's definitely got a complex of sorts.

Reply

[-]

chicagoderp@reddit

No you fucking moron.

Reply

[-]

FiberApproach2783@reddit

Never in the history of aviation has that been a thing😭

Reply

[-]

Bot_Marvin@reddit

No they won’t.

Reply

[-]

rovingtravler@reddit

This is more the opposite of what you are talking about / asking, but failures happen and the FO's failure to act when he knew the Captain was wrong resulted in the preventable crash of a fully functional aircraft. This is a great example of CRM Failure. The FO knew they were low and slow and culture, both airline and country, kept him from saying anything. This resulted in the crash of Asiana Airlines FLT 214 in 2013. [WIKI of Asiana FLT 214](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214#:~:text=Asiana%20Airlines%20Flight%20214%20was,the%20threshold%20of%20Runway%2028L)

Reply

[-]

FreeDwooD@reddit

>This is a great example of CRM Failure. The FO knew they were low and slow and culture, both airline and country, kept him from saying anythin That is an incredibly reductive and downright wrong description of events. The FO was a line check captain. The captain was new and still under review, but he was an experiencd FO on a different aircraft. The check captain flying as FO wanted to see if the new captain could handle the approach without intervention. Irrc glide slope equipment was inoperable so the captain had to do the approach manually, which shouldn't have been difficult, but...the captain ran into a very rare use case of the 777 auto-throttle, where if the auto pilot was in a specific mode, it wouldn't wake up and add power if the plane fell below reference speed. The captain let his airspeed drop too far in the faulty assumption that the auto throttle would wake up and add power. After the accident the NTSB asked several other captains at Asiana about this and about half didn't know this could even happen. The "FO" did call out low power but the captain under the wrong assumption of the auto throttle thought he'd be fine. When the FO finally intervened it was too late to prevent a crash. The whole thing goes deeper into Asiana company culture where hand flying was explicitly discouraged, leading to an overreliance on automation and finally to an experienced pilot being unable to handfly an approach in perfect weather conditions. It always goes way deeper than a single person. Read Admiral Cloudberg's article on this for a more detailed exploration and explanation.

Reply

[-]

Bunslow@reddit

there was in incident in norway around a similar time

Reply

[-]

ResponsibilityOld164@reddit

thx for the rabbit hole

Reply

[-]

canuck791@reddit

Yes.

Reply

[-]

Rangeexpert3@reddit

If you truly have an emergency. Actually declaring one to ATC would likely be very low on the list of priority things to do. Lots of other things are more important. Stabilize the airplane, memory item checklists, notify other crew members, in this case the captain. This of course depends on what the actual emergency is. Just like when you do a go around, actually telling the tower that you are initiating a go around does not take precedence over actually doing the go around itself.

Reply

[-]

pilotpete152@reddit

Not in the nature of CRM to declare an emergency without talking about it. Aviate, navigate then communicate, simple but incredibly important. Anyone in the flight deck could ‘declare an emergency’ but usually when an aircraft is in distress the last important item is contacting ATC.

Reply

[-]

unable_compliance@reddit

I mean, if I was in the lav and we depressurised I would certainly hope the FO would get the emergency descent started and saying mayday, instead of waiting for me to come back to discuss it.

Reply

[-]

Turkstache@reddit

Same goes for multi crew. Nobody would be happy if two IRPs waited to declare an emergency because they wanted to wake up the Captain first.

Reply

[-]

NakedJamaican@reddit

Accomplish all the immediate action items, declare an emergency, and then wake me up.

Reply

[-]

Neither-Way-4889@reddit

I don't really know what you mean by declare "without the captain's approval." If the FO recognizes an emergency then he would alert the captain and they would work the problem as a team, part of which would involve declaring an emergency. Keeping your fellow pilot in the loop is extremely important in emergency situations, and unless the captain being incapacitated was the emergency there is no way an FO would just hop on the radio and declare a mayday without bringing the captain into the loop.

Reply

[-]

bhalter80@reddit

I feel like this is one of the biggest things I've learned as a CFi, using my insight and words to resolve problems rather than taking over

Reply

[-]

Noswad_12@reddit

And vice versa, the captain wouldn’t declare without the FOs knowledge either. It’s a team effort folks

Reply

[-]

ArtificialFlight@reddit

I had a Captain who was mentally fucked, and im honestly not really sure how he didn’t get fired earlier. We lost all elevator trim in the jet. He wanted to continue the flight to the destination (5+ hours) in RVSM airspace even though he couldn’t control pitch. I ended up declaring an emergency for him and got us on the ground. He got another couple of chances before he got canned for trying to land on a taxiway on a line check. So thankful I never have to fly 135 charter ever again.

Reply

[-]

accountforbadpost@reddit

Absolutely there are a few incidents of the captain being incapacitated an the FO has to make an emergency landing.

Reply

[-]

CrossBamboAtTen@reddit

So many words in the comments. Yes. The answer is yes. If your captain questions that, you can discuss it on the ground. If your captain cancel the declaration, you can discuss it on the ground the throw them on your no fly list.

Reply

[-]

KCPilot17@reddit

If the first thing you do in an emergency is hop on the radio, you're wrong. You handle the emergency first, which would obviously require the CA's involvement.

Reply

[-]

F1shermanIvan@reddit

Declaring a mayday is a step in almost every SOP, and it’s (almost) never the first step. So no, nobody is declaring an emergency without the other knowing about it.

Reply

[-]

retiredaaer@reddit

The FO may declare an Emergency without the concurrence of the Captain, but FO would have to be correct or he/she would probably be looking at a career change.

Reply

[-]

arky_@reddit

...no? lol it would be an investigation with the ASAP ERC committee + ALPA (or said union). They would review the factual evidence, the CVR, FDR if available, and likely interview both pilots as to what happened and why. If the FO indeed mismanaged a situation without concurrence of the captain but did not cause an unsafe or dangerous event, they would likely be counseled and re-trained on proper CRM.

Reply

[-]

NakedJamaican@reddit

I doubt it would even get that far. FO declares an emergency (when in doubt, shout it out. “Mayday, mayday” costs you nothing). Captains enters the cockpit a few minutes later, evaluates the situation, disagrees with the FO, advices ATC that there is no emergency. Crew goes back to eating dinner (Captain ordered the steak, FO gets the fish). Hohum. No reports filed, no disciplinary action taken. Hopefully, the crew has a thorough debrief.

Reply

[-]

MeatResident2697@reddit

As a captain, I would absolutely ask myself if I am wrong when my FO declares emergency. Sometimes captains need a kick in the head before they realize what's happening.

Reply

[-]

grumpyoldman10@reddit

I don’t know the actual answer to your question, but it sure seems to be worded in such a way that you’re suggesting that the captain doesn’t think there’s an emergency, but the first officer does. That carries some pretty serious implications if you think about it because declaring an emergency Wood be a source of conflict during an emergency if the first officer is right. And to what end? Is it going to help improve the situation by getting them on the ground sooner or with emergency personnel on the ground?

Reply

[-]

cpav8r@reddit

Aviate. Navigate. Communicate. If you’re crying “Mayday” on the radio without interacting with the captain, you’re probably doing it wrong.

Reply

[-]

Apart_Bear_5103@reddit

Of course

Reply

[-]

trying_to_adult_here@reddit

A dispatcher can declare an emergency for one of their flights on their own authority. It’s rare but I’ve met a couple dispatchers who have done it. If we can, I’m sure an FO can. But assuming the captain is not incapacitated (and the captain’s incapacitation would be an excellent reason for an FO to declare an emergency) it seems like it would make more sense in most situations for the FO to bring the emergency situation to the captain’s attention than to go over their head.

Reply

[-]

NakedJamaican@reddit

No idea why you would be down voted. Everything you mentioned is spot on. I can imagine lots of scenarios where it would be appropriate/required for the dispatcher to declare an emergency before contacting the crew. Of course, at some point everyone needs to be on the same page, sharing the same mental model of the situation. Aside: dispatchers are trained in CRM as well.

Reply

[-]

SnorkyB@reddit

“By the power invested in me, by ExpressJet Airlines….” Yeah, it happened once.

Reply

[-]

GroundbreakingAd3644@reddit

Questions my student ask after I explain P factor to him

Reply

[-]

MeatServo1@reddit

It’s not like yelling “I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!” It’d be no different than you being a front seat passenger in a car and saying, “hey, uh, do you smell that too?” or “I think I smell smoke, do you?”

Reply

[-]

Face88888888@reddit

I’m imagining Michael Scott after reading this. “I DECLARE EMERGENNNNNNNCCCCCCYYYYYY!!!”

Reply

[-]

ProfessionalAviator@reddit

A First Officer would never do that. Ever

Reply

[-]

BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit

Really? That’s been your real world experience?

Reply

[-]

Dr_Peter_Venkman_@reddit

How would you know?

Reply

[-]

changgerz@reddit

he watched season 2 of the rehearsal

Reply

[-]

Various-Blood-3902@reddit

He flies SIC in his 172

Reply

[-]

Environmental_Log792@reddit

The propper thing for the FO (or pilot monitoring) to do is to call out the situation so that both pilots know whats going on. Then as a crew, they will perform any prescribed memory items and communicate with ATC when the situation allows it. The only situation that I could think of where this scenario would fit is if the captain was incapacitated.

Reply

[-]

EliteEthos@reddit

Umm. What?!

Reply

[-]

pilotjlr@reddit

Now that some PPLs have chimed in, maybe we can get a flight simmer’s take next

Reply

[-]

Elehctric@reddit

Yes of course they can.

Reply

[-]

rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity: --- This seems like common sense but i was wondering if FO recognizes there’s an emergency and the captain doesn’t he would be able to declare an emergency without the captains approval --- Please downvote this comment until it collapses. Questions about this comment? [Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index/rflyingtower/). --- I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please [contact the mods of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/flying).

Reply

Reply to Post

128 Comments