Brotherhood of Turks, Bosniaks and Albanians.
Posted by Radiant-Ad-9250@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 219 comments
Yesterday, something very strange happened in Turkiye. It was as if two of our teams (Turkiye and Bosnia) won the World Cup. One of them was eliminated (Kosovo). There is an incredible love for Bosnia and Albania in Turkiye. Turkiye is very happy to be going to the World Cup after many years, but very unhappy about eliminating Kosovo.
Note: The image is a Turkish Army post sharing Bosnia's independence day.
Plus-Gap1073@reddit
its sad that many albanians are starting to despise Turks and other way around, Kosovo wouldn’t really exist without them,and many Turkish things wouldn’t exist without Albanians, regardless of historical or modern grievances,🇦🇱🇧🇦🇽🇰🇹🇷 have always been side by side when push came to shove,and let’s not forget that division in the Balkans doesnt neccesarily lead to great things, so let’s make use of our shared cultures to circumvent the rising tensions across the world
wantmywings@reddit
No the fuck it has not. The Ottomans actively suppressed Albanians at every step of the way. 500 Albanians were killed by the Ottomans in Manastir, and basically after every revolt we had. We will not allow you to whitewash our history.
Adistaktos34@reddit
I honestly don't understand how some Albanians like these thugs who oppressed and killed them. Inconceivable.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Greek?
Adistaktos34@reddit
What does it matter? It is absurd to sympathize with a nation that has wronged you.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
So let’s keep hating each other. Because we see each other as threats, let’s spend billions of dollars every year arming ourselves to enrich major arms companies and imperial states. It sounds like a lot of fun.
Adistaktos34@reddit
Does Erdogan have the desire to take foreign lands yes or no? Has he taken Syria, Iraq and threatened Greece yes or no? Who is the imperialist here? The states that had Ottoman rule do not like Turkey, all the states. Doesn't it seem weird to you?
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
As far as I remember, the map of Türkiye hasn't changed yet.
Adistaktos34@reddit
We all hope it doesn't change. The Kurds would be very happy.
LeastSpecific4706@reddit
What kind of stupid question is that? Do our border include those countries now? Has the map changed?
Cringe ahh diaspora nationalist
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Bro thinks world is black and white. Bro needs to touch grass and have sex at least once a week
thelessandbestofme@reddit
Turks were also killed by the Ottomans. And no current Turk coexisted with the Ottomans. The Ottomans' actions do not represent Turkish people, and I can assure you a LOT of people are Kemalist(as, you know, the man who got rid of the monarchy and the Ottomans).
Bringing up history for a way to hate a ethnic group is not accurate and is certainly not cool. We like Albanians here. We like them too. We are not supposed to be hateful towards each other. I hope you grow up one day and realize that.
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
Get the fuck out of here, you literally sang ceddin deden at the match against Romania, when it suits you you are ottomans, when it doesn’t you are not
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Ceddin deden is literally an amcestor song. And its lyrics were written in the 20th century as part of the nationalist/republican movement.
Nothing wrong with the song lmao
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
Dressed in the same attire you’d wear when crossing the danube to pillage and plunder
LeastSpecific4706@reddit
Did you think it was an ottoman song because of the costumes?
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
Yes because of the costumes and because if you search for it online it says ottoman/turkish military march
LeastSpecific4706@reddit
The song was written in 1911 the ottomans fell in 1922, if there was an "ottoman song" it'd be much older than that.
The song isnt "ottoman" its just culturally Turkish.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
They're costumes man
What? Are you gonna be mad at renneisance fair goes for dressing like crusaders too?
İts just for show my guy. İ dont think anyone flamed serbia for putting up that skanderbeg banner either. You know what people did flame tho? When Turks put up a banner in response to that.
So when slavs do it its fine but when we do it its not gtfo
The message of the parade here wasnt "look at us we're retaking the balkans again like we did before! Bow to us!"
İt was "hey look at us we're wearing old armour & clothings and sing a century old song about our ancestry"
Like what did you see in that parade that warrants SUCH a massive hostile response in you? Because you heard an old song that you dont know the meaning of?
Because you saw clothes that you dont understand the weight of?
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
Take a wild guess why it would be offensive to flail your ottoman past to nations the ottomam empire has plundered, robbed, and set back centuries. I don’t give a fuck about your ancestor worship spectacle there’s a time and place for that it also shows how i was right in my initial comment about how you are ottoman heirs when it suits you but when it doesn’t then the ottomans also killed turks yada yada
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
While TV series about Vikings are being produced around the world; while fans go to matches wearing horned helmets and Viking cosplay outfits; and while Viking gods are turned into heroes who save the world in popular culture, I don’t think any French or English person says, “Hey, these are the people who looted our countries and killed our people.”
I’m not saying this only to you; we are probably the same. We think the world revolves around us, and when people we dislike do something (whatever it may be), we feel as if they are doing it specifically to insult or humiliate us.
If you hate someone, even their mere breathing can feel like a hostile act to you.
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
I don’t think this comparison is fair first off the viking raids were inconsequential to those nations you mentioned. The ottoman occupation in the balkans lasted for CENTURIES, centuries of being a vassal of sending yearly tribute in gold and produce to the Porte CENTURIES of no development because of exploitation. Secondly I don’t see scandinavians going around and sugarcoating their raider past “oh but it was a tolerant and just Empire”, I don’t see scandinavians being hostile and using history to justify their exceptionalism. I don’t hate turks as a nation we’ve got turks and tatars in Romania and they are just fine but there is this current in Turkey of neoottomanism of islamism I am frightened and the thing that i hate most is the hypocrisy as i said before you can’t claim your ottoman past while also denying it that’s schizophrenia
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
The word ‘inconsequential’ isn’t really appropriate. Such an important event—the kind that would topple many kingdoms like Wallachia and Moldavia and give rise to a unified English identity—is certainly not insignificant. It’s a milestone that, in France, undermined the authority of kings and contributed to the rise of feudalism.
I’m not even mentioning the massacres, or the slave and human trades.
As I said, you see others’ experiences as trivial because you think the world revolves around you. Even though the whole world went through roughly the same things at different times, you believe your kind is unique. This sense of ‘singularity’ is, in fact, the main fuel of nationalism.
Other hand: Isn't Romania's national hero Vlad, the one who killed more Romanians than Turks?
You see, history is not just black and white. A man can be a good father, a bad husband, a good worker, but a bad citizen. It's very easy to demonize everyone if you look at things in two dimensions.
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
I apreciate your response it’s very sensible and your remarks on nationalism are valid. I still don’t think comparing the viking raids to the ottoman empire is a fair comparison, those nations managed to overcome that part of their history and evolve into empires in their own right, whereas in the balkans this is not the case. Centuries of subjugation meant that we could not develop economically, we could not build fortifications, political instability was always high because the sultan would auction the throne of the principalities to the highest bidder there would always be pretenders and civil wars these practices and set backs translate into today’s backwardness and deep seated corruption the culture of our nation I’m well aware we are not an exception and there are nations that had it way worse but I’m sure you can see how this would warrent a justified hatred towards the ottoman empire. This conversation started from someone claiming that the ottoman’s actions do not represent the Turkish people but from what I’ve seen turks are very proud about their ottoman past.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
This actually relates to the fact that Turkish identity is composed of interlinked layers.
I don’t know if this will ease your mind, but after the Age of Exploration, during the economic difficulties it faced, the Ottoman Empire tried to cover budget deficits by selling governorships in Anatolia for money (through bribery). Even today, the heroic stories and songs of bandits who revolted against those “tyrannical governors” remain popular in Anatolia (see: Köroğlu).
Moreover, during the Celali Rebellions, the massacres carried out by the Ottomans significantly reduced the Turkish population in Anatolia. There is a pre-World War I report prepared by Germans who toured Anatolia, describing how Anatolian peasants were deprived even of basic healthcare, had intestines full of parasites, and lived in extreme poverty.
This is what I meant by “I don’t know if it will ease your mind”: on average, a Turk in Anatolia likely lived under much worse conditions than the average Romanian in the Balkans. I don’t know if the Ottomans exploited the Balkans, but I know from the living conditions of my own ancestors that Turks were not exploited.
For many Turks, of course, these periods of the Ottoman Empire provoke resentment. But as I said, identity is made up of interlinked layers, and people do not see only one face of the Ottomans (at least not some Islamists who stopped reading after high school). They hate the Ottoman bureaucracy, a group of palace elites indifferent to the public. They admire the army structure that, at its peak, led military innovation and managed to defeat united European forces. They resent the traditionalism that turned its back on innovations such as the printing press because of imperial customs. They admire the synthesis of cultures brought together from different lands, and so on. The average Turk, for example, has never even heard of “Çele Kula.”
So your understanding of the Ottomans is very different from how Turks perceive them. When a Turk praises the Ottomans, it does not mean “Oh, thankfully we killed the Romanians.” At most, it means they are thinking something like, “How glorious our victory was at Nicopolis.”
It's simply a matter of people's fondness for epic stories.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
What the vikings did:
Slave trade (thralls),
Territorial conquests,
Settlements (in those foreign lands),
"Danegeld" (tribute payment),
Forced assimilations (by example of the normandy) and rape/concubinage
Source
"İnCoNsEqUeNtİAl"
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Look İ'm just gonna put this here ok?
Must be hard to still be stuck in the middle ages but damn
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
We’re the ones stuck in the middle ages, you have an autocrat in power, reconverted a museum into a mosque and illegally annexed a part of cyprus then settled it with turks I think that is more medieval than someone criticising it
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Once again İ'm putting this out since you're hung up on the cyprus thingy
Oh and yeah İ absolutely love autocrats and loss of civil rights how could you tell? /s
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
Look, the way I see it is your country was a bully, is a bully and for the foreseeable future will remain so. You can embrace that or reject it. Denying it and boasting about it at the same time is either slimey or cognitive dissonance. I don’t want to give off the impression that I’m a rabid turkophobe, please don’t take anything I wrote personally.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Just seems like no matter what we do we always gonna be bad unless we completely throw our entire culture away and basically ethnically cleanse ourselves just to fit your idea of sensible behaviour...whatever dude
thelessandbestofme@reddit
I didn't. We sat there and cursed at them. You are dumb enough to think every single person thinks the same. Turkiye is basically 50/50 in every political belief, and most of us were fucking embarrassed.
My ancestors WERE also killed by the Ottomans. You don't have the right to deem us Ottomans just because you deem yourself the only minorities that got hurt. I'm educated enough to know MY history. Those uneducated dumbasses don't speak for me, and neither do you.
LastHomeros@reddit
Rebels know they’re risking death, you know that, right? They didn’t just do a parade on the streets during Pride Month - they armed themselves and attacked Ottoman administrative units, and ultimately they were defeated. I guess the reason you’re so bitter is that you lost, not that you rebelled.
Ujemegaz@reddit
He is talking about the massacre of beys in Ohrid, if not mistaken. They were invited in a dinner event after the uprisings of the 1830s was stopped and peace was reached. A garnizon from nearby post came and massacred everyone. Since then, the animosity between Ottomans and Albanian muslims started growing even more.
wantmywings@reddit
There were civilian massacres each time
LastHomeros@reddit
Historically, nearly all rebellions ended in massacres, whether committed by the rebels or the quellers.
Sow_40@reddit
If the Turks did what the Europeans did to their supressed countries, you wouldnt have your christian religion and language right now. There might have been innocent deaths, but be grateful because there is always worse.
Vyoin@reddit
People sometimes fight, see ww1 ww2? waterloo?
Plus-Gap1073@reddit
Polish,French and German people today are mostly friends,same for Spanish and British people,same for Mongols and Chinese
we are very aware of our horrible history with the Ottomans and their discrimination against us in the empire
But the stupidity is when we think our persecution was unique or special and gives us the right to distance us from the rest of the region, that type of backwards nationalism only leads to destruction.
Formal-Can-4168@reddit
Turks were not the main contributor for Kosovo independence by far. USA was, with as distant seconds Germany and UK
Plus-Gap1073@reddit
its not about that really,Ottoman and Kosovar history are really intertwined,if not for turkey,kosovo wouldn’t be Albanian
wantmywings@reddit
Ottomans literally separated Kosovo from Albania and divided our country into 4 separate areas. Albanians fought Ottomans. The ones that supported the regime are called Ottomans.
Syrmin@reddit
When the fuck was Kosovo Albanian before Ottomans? lmao
Your propaganda is absolutely ridiculous. Half of Kosovo was occupied by Ottomans at end of 14th century and another half during the fall of Serbian Despotate.
Formal-Can-4168@reddit
Exactly in which way it wouldn't be Albanian? It's not that they defended Kosovo from the Serbs
Ujemegaz@reddit
Don't touch the old wound. If anything, Ottomans reduced half of our population in late 1400s and early 1500s. The montaneus part of Kosovo has been inhabitated and known as Dukagjin since late antiquity.
Syrmin@reddit
Totally true. Without Ottoman occupation, Albanians would never settled in Kosovo and hijack that territory from Serbia...
Ujemegaz@reddit
I am grateful to Turks, but the main pushers were US and Bfitain, specifically Allbright and Blair invested a lot of in diplomacy. Turkey supported Bosnia as well, yet did not stop them from being slaughtered right and left.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Noone wants you to worship us. Just not hating us is often enough
Ujemegaz@reddit
No one hates Turkey today, but Turks online take it personal when soneone disses the Ottomans. Then people shit talk.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Well yeah. As much as İ personally hate the ottomans for what they did to Turks alone, a lot of ottomans were still part of my ancestry.
So anyone who talks shit about my ancestry from the outside is obviously going to get hit for talking shit.
Thats not unique to me, you go out there and trashtalk the byzantine empire and the greeks will seethe until their teeth fall off.
Everyone will take it in an ill manner if you shame their predecessor. Because often times people are already aware that things werent going well, and dont want to be berated by outsiders. İts more effective to let the people realize the errors in their ways themselves instead of telling them.
Ever wondered why berating someone and counting their mistakes rarely works?
mob74@reddit
Bro, they were also “the Ottomans”. Its their history as well
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Yes but wether they identify with their ottoman past is up to them.
They were only ottomans on paper because they got conquered, they never actually identified as ottoman and thats the point.
İ dont blame them or want them to identify as ottomans or ex-otttomans, the ottomans were just another occupational force.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Noted. Seems like you and Greeks both will be alienating a lot of peoples when the topic is Byzantines or Ottomans.
bbishe@reddit
Tell that to Skenderbeu. Please let’s not forget history. I don’t mean we should hate them but being brothers is a little bit of a stretch….
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
Bosnians and Albanians are looked up by Turks because they see them as European Muslims ottomans while the Turks are the Middle Eastern ottomans.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
No we look up to them alongside Macedonia because they're the only nations that dont actively shit on us
'Tleast thats my reason
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
They are doing Allah's work
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
Armenia has been in a hostile relationship with Turkey for the past 30 years, which has left it in the position of a failed state. The last gateway it had to the world, Iran, is now being bombed by the U.S. and Israel. We don’t hate anyone, but those who want to build a relationship of hatred with us are the ones who lose.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
Another racist who commented and then blocked. If you're afraid to communicate, don't comment at all.
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
I do not care about opinions from people who have done and excuse genocides
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
Maybe because of the genocides you did in Armenian people and stole their country in the last centuries.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Looked up by??? Turkey is light years ahead of BiH and Albania and literally 30 times larger
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
😂
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Albania GDP (PPP) per capita 23,000, BiH 21,000, Turkey 45,000
suspiciousted@reddit
We'd straight up burn the quran to avoid any association with turks and they know that. Tf are you even on?
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
Stfu
suspiciousted@reddit
No you stfu! By and large we're simply theists not muslims to begin with although I wish we returned to our christian roots. The present day country who suffered the most under the ottomans (no schools allowed, rampant poverty, poor inexistent infrastructure) can't be having a called brotherhood with a former invader who brought nothing but death and destruction.
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
Stfu sob
bosnanic@reddit
I respect Turks and their gratitude but honestly the "brotherhood" is weak between Bosnia and Turkey outside of online messages.
whiteoba@reddit
I’d add Iran as a firm supporter during the war. We should never forget that. Turkey did recognize us early on and there was support, especially humanitarian, but the military support came under the umbrella of NATO. The people were very much supportive of us. They’ve taken in a lot of our refugees and integrated them well as far as I’m aware. The investments are probably just because there’s more people and more opportunity for growth in Serbia. Plus they’re on a historic trade route and we’re not. Idk I’ve never had harsh feelings towards the Turks and always felt warm towards them.
OldYogurt7161@reddit
Didn’t bosnian artilleries get their education in Polatlı/Ankara which is not a NATO base? I guess It was more than a NATO umbrella.
whiteoba@reddit
Sure. Only thing we needed was actual artillery.
OldYogurt7161@reddit
Since your MIC heavily focuses on artillery production. Yep it might be not only but a vital need.
whiteoba@reddit
I meant during the war.
OldYogurt7161@reddit
Yep MIC industry mainly artillery inherited from Yugoslavia. And military education support was given in 90s. I am from Polatlı not me but my parents saw Bosnian soldiers.
whiteoba@reddit
We had very little to no (heavy) artillery. Almost all of was in the hands of the Serbs. Education is great and appreciated but there’s only so much you can do with self made mortars. Very few people seem to understand the severe weapons and ammo situation Bosnia had to deal with.
DekadentniTehnolog@reddit
If I may ask. When Iran supports you is that because of religion? I mean i know they are differences between sunnis and shia bit its not that big deal like catholics and orthodox for example
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
First of all, I should state that I have zero knowledge about the subject. What I am going to write from now on is entirely based on estimation and interpretation; the starting point of my interpretation is the Saudi Arabia–Iran tension.
Saudi Arabia, especially because it has enormous capital, sends its own imams all over the world as a form of missionary activity. By spreading Wahhabism, which is a branch of Salafism and one of the strictest versions of Islam, they want to turn this into political power around the world.
As we know, Iran has never had such financial power. Since it has had poor relations with many countries, even if they wanted to, it would be difficult for them to build mosques and send imams. As I said, this is only a guess, but I think they adopted another method to spread Shiism due to their circumstances. In countries such as Syria, Hamas-controlled areas, Yemen, and Iraq, they either have paramilitary forces or they support local groups that are not directly tied to them, and through this influence they try to expand Shiism.
I do not know what the current belief and sect of Muslims in Bosnia is today, but I know that in the early period Islam spread there through the Bektashis, who are a branch of Alevism. During the sectarian conflicts between the Ottoman Empire and Iran, the masses that the Iranian Shahs tried to convert to Shiism were mostly Alevis and Bektashis. As a result, especially during the reign of Selim I, the Ottoman Empire began to take a very harsh stance against the Alevis. Instead, in the east, Sunni Kurds were brought into administrative positions.
If there is still a strong Bektashi tradition among Bosniaks and Albanians today, I would guess that Iran might have thought there is a social structure there that could be suitable for the spread of Shiism.
DekadentniTehnolog@reddit
Thank you so much for your response! It was a truly joy to read
whiteoba@reddit
I think in the case of Iran yes. They’re an explicitly Islamic country and obligated to help other Muslims. Yes they are Shia and we are Sunni but they truly believe they are the leaders of the Muslim world.
lovinGamin@reddit
Turkey continues to invest heavily across this region and North Africa, maintaining a strategic presence. We invest where it is easy to. For example we invest heavily on Montenegro, they preferred bootliking eu , as they need to, so Turkish investments in there will vanish soon. But Serbia is not a bootlicker so Turkey esily invest there.
While some point to the Ottoman suppression of dissent, it is important to realize that the Empire acted no differently than any other nation defending its sovereignty. The Bosnians were pushing back against Ottoman rule, and the State responded as any power would. However, the ultimate tragedy was that while we struggled to maintain control and you rebelled, we both became weakened. This internal friction allowed the "Great Powers" to simply stand by and watch. Because we were both exhausted by the conflict, the Austrians were able to step in and seize Bosnia with ease. We fought to stay in control, but in the end, our division gave the upper hand to outsiders.
technotronica@reddit
Thankfully Austria took us over and civilized us in just 40 years. Turkey build 2 Roman Empire technology bridges and not much else in 400 years. No sanitation or modern anything. Population of illiterates living in feudalism. Turkey only sucked us dry through out the centuries. Used us like a leech to collect taxes and enslave our brothers and sisters that didn't convert.
lovinGamin@reddit
Its not turkey its ottomans you talking about but i get your view, I also would go the Montenegro way , keep going on, as you feel like.
Adistaktos34@reddit
You say all this as if you were a nation with common interests. Dude, leave these lands, you are not welcome by the locals. What don't you understand?
mob74@reddit
But Turks and Turkey are different entities. If you’ll gonna believe what i say, if it was for the public, we would help you for the war.
technotronica@reddit
Also the forced assimilation of Bosniaks in Turkey. They all needed to change their surnames to Turkish sounding surnames and their culture basically got suppressed.
raceregos@reddit
Fair points, but peoples and states are different. One has emotions, the other has not.
ayayayamaria@reddit
If I were rich I'd finance a "Keeping Up with the Balkans" tv series full of drama, shipping and love polycules ~~^(second season Pakistan comes into play causing controversy)~~
Sukmakokforfre@reddit
we need that
Stormrage44@reddit
To be honest I would be relieved to see Pakistan if it's gonna put an end to all that love things you said
ayayayamaria@reddit
No Pakistan will join the love triangle (love polygon) with u, Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia
Super_Sherbet_268@reddit
I'm mad why didn't you invite me into 1st season!?
Commercial_Leek6987@reddit
You’re the season finale reveal! Big in season 2! 😂
Super_Sherbet_268@reddit
yee
Dreznicki@reddit
Bosnia and Turkey glazing eachother is never gonna not be hilarious to me
CormundCrowlover@reddit
We all know you'd much rather blaze the Bosnians.
Key-Football-7492@reddit
Yeah image nowadays being christian and someone forces you to convert to islam and being proud of it.
Kejo2023@reddit
Bosniaks weren't forced to convert otherwise you Serbians would be Muslims, too. In fact, they are one of few nations on this earth who changed their religion voluntarily. Educate yourself before you articulate an opinion.
Key-Football-7492@reddit
Fyi I’m not Serbian. “Voluntarily” nice april fools joke I think that people in this region know very good how that happened “voluntarily” so what ever your president told you is a big lie.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
No one converts religion at sword point. European Jews were oppressed for centuries, yet they continued to preserve their faith. If oppression alone caused religious conversion, Judaism would have disappeared long ago.
The same pattern can be seen in Turkish history. Arabs tried to force Turks in Western Asia to accept Islam through massacres and violence. For nearly 200 years, no matter how much blood was shed, they were unsuccessful. Only after two centuries, when Arab power weakened and Turkic states began establishing authority in the region, Islam started spreading rapidly among Turks. The key difference was that, unlike the rigid Islamic understanding of the Arabs, the Turks developed a new interpretation that blended Islam with their old shamanistic beliefs. Because Arabs imposed strict and absolute religious rules, they did not allow such a synthesis to form, and people did not convert.
What happened in the Balkans was similar. Albanians and Bosnians did not become Muslim through a rigid, orthodox form of Islam, but through Bektashism, which provided flexibility and allowed their culture and older beliefs to exist within Islam.
Because of your heroic narratives and ignorance of history, you see the world in black and white, but the world is not made of only two colors.
Those who know Japanese mythology will also understand what I am about to say. A similar process happened there as well. They have one of the most complex mythologies in the world because their mountainous geography isolated communities from each other; for a long time, without a central authority, each tribe developed its own beliefs. When central states began to emerge, they created synthesized and “upgraded” religions by incorporating the local gods and beliefs of each tribe they absorbed. This process continued until the last tribe on the islands was integrated into the whole. This tolerance toward local religions made it easier to establish central authority, and the complex, layered mythology of today was formed in this way.
If people had been forced to convert at sword point, Bosnians and Albanians would never have become Muslim either. There are hundreds of examples in history that lead us to this conclusion.
QualityOdd1392@reddit
The ottoman empire was pretty tolerant to christians in balkans tho
Kejo2023@reddit
Go read some history books. Bye.
Damirirv@reddit
Nice way of saying you know nothing of Bosnias' history
Key-Football-7492@reddit
Tell me you are proud your ancestors converted to islam forcefully without telling me
krejmin@reddit
And you think Christians weren't converted?
Key-Football-7492@reddit
You really do love your Ottoman masters that converted your ancestors to islam, well good for you just say it.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
Go outside and get some fresh air.
Damirirv@reddit
Motherfucker we weren't even christian in the first place, we were majority bogumils till the fall of the Kingdom, the Ottomans related to us because our dumbass king decided to persecute the bogumils to try and get papal support but they didn't care. And the Ottomans saw themselves in us since before their fall the Byzantines also persecuted them, it's why we were the main ones that willingly converted and the ONLY region of the Ottomans to retain large autonomy.
kerobob@reddit
They were not Bogomils, they were followers of the Bosnian Church which appeard during the 13th century. They were literally schismatic Christians and called themselves krstjani, and they were not even the majority. Majority of Bosniaks did not convert forcefully, they did it willingly.
Key-Football-7492@reddit
Killing someone with tax and stealing their children isn't really willingly in my opinion, but ok.
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
Christians literally think a human is god. By being Muslim they save themselves from eternal hell fire, of course they are gonna be proud. I’m proud of my ancestors who converted to Islam and enabled me to grow up in such an environment.
Key-Football-7492@reddit
Tell me are you the one taking the camel from the back or is the camel taking you from the back the best?
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
Camel back is a typing style in programming languages, you’re just ignorant.
Key-Football-7492@reddit
Still how do you prefer to take your camel? or maybe goat?
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
How do you prefer your dildos up your ass?
kaiser_vfe@reddit
"Christians literally think a human is God", this says enough about your knowledge of Christianity
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
What is trinity? I respect everyone’s religion but it is what it is. Jesus is seen as a god. People literally pray Jesus himself. The only true religion Islam says there is no god but Allah. If you wanna save your eternity look into this issue. I’m saying this just for your sake.
kaiser_vfe@reddit
"The Trinity is the central Christian doctrine that there is one God who exists as three distinct, coeternal, and consubstantial Persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. They are not three gods, but one God sharing a single divine nature or essence." One Google search away dude.
Moreover before you say "how is it possible", then think about it like that, a man has a soul, a heart and a brain, is it 3 different men or is it one men's body working in balance? Ofc the example is not good since its just easily explained, while God is a complex being.
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
The current Christian belief system is a corrupted version of its original by Romans under the influence of their polytheistic beliefs. In one of the chapters of Quran which is the final message of God to humanity, it clearly says Allah is one.
Sura Al-Ikhlas: Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
Allah gives human free will to make choices. We respect people’s right to practice whatever religion they like but I’m warning you. Peace be upon you.
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
Hai sictir jihadist imputit manca-v-ar gheena de navalitori salbatici
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
You are so fucking dumb that you are trying to prove your point by referring to Quran to a Christian person lmaoooooo do you think he hives a shit about your book? Next level of dumbness amk
ScarRedDA@reddit
Partialism
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
dont mind this twat he is an erdogan glazer
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
Burda islami savunuyorum gavurla bir olup bana tokat atiyorsun. Muslumansan bu guzel bir hareket degil.
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
cok da sikimdeydi amk akplisi seni adam hristiyanim diyorsa sana mi kaldi got lalesi. Isa Tanridir diyorsa adam icin Isa tanridir.
Siktir git colune
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
Benim mesajimdan bunu mu anliyorsun beyinsiz kopek. Otur bir iki tane kitap oku da anlama kabiliyetin gelissin.
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
Hahhhahahhahahahahahah kes çomar kitap diyo bi de jahahahahahahayayahahahahaha amk balicisi
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
adam islama bi sey mi demis amk salagi her sikime atliyorsunuz akpli sicmiklar sizi, adam osmanli elistisi yapiyor isa insandir diye sik sik konusuyosun, tam duz comar akpli amk bilgisi olmasa da bi sikten anlamasa da her sikime yorum yapacak comar
MustardJar4321@reddit
The only people you can argue that the ottomans forcibly converted are the kosovar albanians
Ninevolts@reddit
It's just the ruling party in Turkey is islamist, they only acknowledge the Muslim countries. Others receive a mild reception. Literally, apparently the office of foreign ministry had a map that highlighted Muslim countries. Not just the majority ones.
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
but i think its little more than that, erdogan is an islamist dog but we also have loooooads of people with bosniak ethnicity living in turkey, i bet you also know a bosnak arkadas
Ninevolts@reddit
Of course lots of Bosniaks are living in Turkey because Turkey refused to accept christian refugees like Croatians and Serbians. We literally had a population exchange where we sent ethnic Turks who were NOT muslims. But not acknowledging other countries or celebrating their special days are specific to AKP. I lived in Eskisehir for a while years ago and they had that "Austria week" with lots of celebrations including an art exhibition. Apparently Bursa, who had an AKP mayor that time, refused having that because of them being "gavur".
Names-Are-Confusing@reddit
Croatians weren’t going to Turkey anyway, wtf?
Ninevolts@reddit
Bosniak descent people arrived to Turkey in 1923 in mass numbers. "muhacir", they're known in turkey. Many war torn Croatians and Serbians also wanted to immigrate but the government blocked that. They allowed only muslims.
Names-Are-Confusing@reddit
Do you have any viable source whatsoever claiming Croats wanted to immigrate to Turkey? They were pretty successful immigrating to Germany, Austria, Sweden or other continents(Argentina, Australia), I absolutely never heard of a Croat trying to find refuge in Turkey. That’s just misinfo. Idk about Serbs though.
DekadentniTehnolog@reddit
This is not even true for serbs. Same as Croats they either emigrated from Bosnia to Serbia or western countries. Why on earth would a christian slav emigrate to turkey. I 'm not trying to offend any1 but it is not as close and language is a problem and religion is different.
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
Yeah I agree lol there are plenty of other options, better ones, for Christian folk especially
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
what christian refugees, why would serbs be refugees, from what lol? bosnaks got fucked up by the serbs hence they ended up here? not sure what you mean... like it would be weird to celebrate all nations national holidays lol, austria week may fly in eskisehir as there are lots of students and these stuff are usually also supported by the respective governemnet of the foreign country. you know germans/austrians have their think tanks etc across the world, since they have the finances to do so. I dont agree with you on this one
Ninevolts@reddit
After WW1, lots of Yugoslavians got displaced, Serbians getting hit the hardest. Turkey was founded in 1923 and many in balkans tried to immigrate. The newly founded senate voted to block christian refugees. Only the muslims were allowed. And it just few months there was a population exchange, Turkey got rid of majority of muslim population.
Foreign minister Yusuf Kemal did all of this, he was a strict Islamist and a big supporter of Adnan Menderes and his agenda against non-muslims in the 60s.
mob74@reddit
I’m really sad for what had happened; i didn’t know that. For the regular common people here, it was not a problem. But for the governments, you already know it. I think that someone worked hard to seperate religions, ethnicities, neighborhood after the Ottomans collapse and the eve of new world order
Optimal-Broccoli6063@reddit
Bro im sure at least %30 of turkey is not muslim
Stormrage44@reddit
Decent honest people Bosniaks I met. Not full of themselves unlike many eastern europeans.
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
Ask the r/bih subreddit if they feel this "brotherhood".
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
I always thought most of Bosnian people are cool with us, is not the case? I mean it would be cool have one nation where we have mutual feelings lmaooo
Imaginary-Librarian7@reddit
For a start, it is important to understand one basic fact, Bosnia and Herzegovina is made up of three constituent peoples bosniaks, croats, and serbs..i am not sure croats and serbs would call relations between BH and Turkiye as "brotherhood"
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
fair enough, I honestly didnt know that there are that many serbs in bosnia
Ok_Novel_699@reddit
There arent, only 31%. Even less Croatians. Both minorities.
EfficientlyOff@reddit
Minorities ha ? Ok, videcemo za koju deceniju, tacno se ponasate onako za sta optuzujete Srbe da su se ponasali u Jugoslaviji, miran razlaz bi vam bio najbolja opcija, budite pametni...
Ok_Novel_699@reddit
Mozete licno cekat na druge strane Drine sumsko
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
In 1991, Bosniaks made up 43.5% of the population and in 2013 they accounted for 50%. Those Serbs and Croats did not disappear into thin air, they are in Germany or somewhere else.
Drama-Gloomy@reddit
Important to note that if the war hadn’t happened, Bosniaks would’ve been the majority population very quickly.
Savings_Show_8499@reddit
30% is still quite a lot bro, I wouldve guessed like 10, 15% max
Stormrage44@reddit
Sırp bölgesinin bayrağı resmen sırbistan bayrağı gibi ve her yere asmışlar asıl devlet bayrağı yok neredeyse o bölgede.
Drama-Gloomy@reddit
It’s the Russian flag upside down haha
Stormrage44@reddit
It was so fucking weird. When I was first in Banja Luka I was like where the hell am I. Also they wrote "Cnaba PoccnR" on walls showing alleigance to their masters...
otisticRetard52@reddit
Bosnaks i had been in contact (in austria) all liked turks
deviendrais@reddit
r/Bosnia sure as hell does feel it
treba_dzemper@reddit
r/bosnia is a bosniak islamo-nationalist shitfest, it's not representative of how Bosniaks think, let alone the rest of Bosnia
Responsible_Trick466@reddit
Albania is quite different from Bosnia despite it being a Muslim majority
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
May I ask if the Bosnian national football team includes Bosnian Serbs from the Republika Srpska?
Are there any Bosnian-Serbian football players?
Zmaj_99@reddit
Currently, we have one Bosnian Serb on our roster (Jovo Lukić), but he didn’t play in the last two games.
In the past, we had many Bosnian Serbs playing for our national football team, the most famous examples are Zvjezdan Misimović, Milan Đurić, Rade Krunić, Gojko Cimirot, Siniša Sanicanin, Ognjen Vranješ and Darko Todorović.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
Oh, really? At first, I thought they were boycotting the Bosnian national team and weren't participating.
Syrmin@reddit
Not boycotting, rather just choose Serbia over Bosnia.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
I didn't know that Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats also hold Serbian and Croatian citizenship, respectively, in addition to Bosnian citizenship.
Syrmin@reddit
Yes, double citizenship is allowed by all 3 countries.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
Are a Bosnian Serb and a Bosnian Croat automatically entitled to Serbian and Croatian citizenship?
Syrmin@reddit
No, they ask for it
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
If they ask for it, do they get it without any additional conditions? That’s what I’m asking.
Syrmin@reddit
Basically yes
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
Thank you for your answers!
Zmaj_99@reddit
No, they’re not boycotting it. They were only boycotting the national team shortly after the war, but since the early 2000s we had Bosnian Serbs playing in the Bosnian national team.
I don’t know what the other people here are talking about, I’m a fan of the Bosnian national team for almost 20 years and haven’t missed a handful of games in this period.
However, it is also true that many good Bosnian Serb players choose to play for Serbia instead of Bosnia.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
Great, thank you very much for the accurate information. As a fan, though, as far as I can tell, the national soccer team is supported exclusively by Bosnians, judging by the flags in the stands?
Zmaj_99@reddit
I wouldn’t say that it is supported exclusively by Bosniaks, but Bosniaks account for maybe 80% of all fans. However, there are also Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs (the not nationalistic ones) who are supporting the Bosnian national team.
If you look through the comments on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok, you’ll see that many people from Croatia and Serbia supported Bosnia yesterday. Even Novak Đoković attended the game to support Bosnia.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
I see! I'm generally trying to get a sense of the situation within the country in this area. Thanks for your answers.
Ok_Novel_699@reddit
There are no Serbians that represent the national team. Often, due to their ultranationalist impluse choose to support the opposing team always.
Yes, but they represented the national team very early from the indepedence and very few numbers. I believe only 2 Serbs represented the national team in history.
We only have one Croatian who represents the national team currently as our goalkeeper. Nikola Vasilj, who has Croatians ancestry.
Zmaj_99@reddit
Samo dva Srbina nastupali za BiH u fudbalu? Druze bez uvrede, ali kada si poceo pratiti fudbal? Samo u zadnjih 15 godina smo imali Zvjezdana Misimovica, Milana Đurica, Radeta Krunica, Gojku Cimirota, Ognjena Vranješa, Darka Todorovica, Sinisu Sanicanina, Darija Sarica a bilo ih je bar jos desetak koji su odigrali samo nekoliko utakmica. Trenutno je i Jovo Lukic clan rostera, samo sto nije igrao u ove zadnje dvije utakmice.
A od bh. Hrvata trenutno imamo Vasilja, Katica, Basica i Sunjica u reprezentaciji.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
First of all, congratulations on your well-deserved qualification, and thank you for your reply. So, are Bosnian-Serbian players deliberately refraining from playing for the Bosnian national team?
It’s very hard to believe that there aren’t any good Bosnian-Serbian players who could play for the team.
Etsikaietsi@reddit
Very few Serbs from Bosnia want to still be a part of BIH in general. Let a lone their football team. They either don’t care when they play as they feel that the national team doesn’t represent them, or actively root against them.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
Thank you very much for the clarification. That’s exactly what I wanted to know. I was really happy for the Bosnian team, and I’m glad it boosted your morale.
Etsikaietsi@reddit
I personally couldn’t care less as I’m not from Bosnia but I’m thankful for your support.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit
Έλληνας είσαι ρε;
No_One_Special13@reddit
Maybe I'm wrong... but aren't Katić, Šunjić and Bašić all Croats as well? The last one there was born in Imotski.
Ok_Novel_699@reddit
Yeah your right, my bad.
gothfangsx@reddit
Albanians calling them brothers while their greatest hero fought against those same people is so shameless
rydolf_shabe@reddit
Those who say that are not considered Albanian in my and many other peoples eyes. Also the amount of people that say that shit is very low, please do not generalize
suspiciousted@reddit
Who told you we call them brothers? Almost everybody acknowledges that under their rule we were a 'left behind' society who suffered major setbacks which defined future generations to this day.
Flatpiller@reddit
Whats shameless is still being stuck in the 15th century lol
Many-Rooster-7905@reddit
Turks created bosniaks
Pretend-Technician64@reddit
This post is a bit too much for the crowd here considering that even a Mehter costume in a national match gets some of y'all to start shaking.
Y'all are united in Turkish hate, this is the only purpose of this sub.
Lol.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
My dad told that there were huge donations sent to bosnia during the war people, were selling their shit and donate.
And the helps at the war by the military we declared war obviosusly though there are ex maroon berets telling their memories; that they were snucking weapons from turkey iran and pakistan(there was an embargo) and that they intervened to the camps there and stuff.
EfficientlyOff@reddit
You dont say, we thought according to the story of the Muslims that they fought with sticks and stones in sneakers and jeans
yarday449@reddit
A bunch or pepole went to Bosnia and become Mujahid's too.
Rich_Association2923@reddit
Kosovo is Serbia
RestaurantBoring417@reddit
Calling the people who enslaved your ancestors for 500 years brothers is wild, just like muslim Albanians celebrating Skenderbeg as an Albanian national hero when he was a christian warrior fighting against the muslim Ottomans.
Crypto-KeeperALB@reddit
Albanians don’t have a brotherhood with Turks. I knowbalkaners aren’t very knowledgeable besides propaganda from their own cultures but Albanians had the most resistance to the Turks and suffered by far the most from the Turks.
Super_Sherbet_268@reddit
WELL DESERVED Bosnian footballer did not shake hands with their israeli counterparts
Adistaktos34@reddit
In Greece I don't know a single Albanian Muslim. Those who were atheists because of Hoxha were immediately baptized as Orthodox Christians when they came to Greece. Is the population in Albania Muslim? It makes a terrible impression on me. The Turks only did bad things to Albania and Bosnia, how is it possible that they consider them brothers? Paranoia
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Greek?
Adistaktos34@reddit
IMMEDIATELY. Since you have no idea of life here, what are you doing being smart? They don't admit that 7 out of 10 are Albanians. Second generation Albanians don't even know Albanian. The civilization and culture of Greece is so strong that it absorbs the Albanians.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
So basically you are assimilating them and proud about it. “Greek culture and civilization so strong!” Someone needs to wake up, Homeros has been dead by a couple of millennia.
Adistaktos34@reddit
I don't mean the ancient civilization. But the modern one with music, customs and traditions and everyday life. It's something I can't explain to you but it's a fact. Second-generation immigrants don't even go on vacation to Albania. Does it seem so strange to you? We have nothing to do with the northern Europeans who are cold and boring.
Levoisser@reddit
Albenians are like ugly, sneaky cousin for us. you can not reject the relations and you always know she exists but you can not get along with her in any possible way.
Muslim Bosnians( especially X generation and boomers) i can easily bond respect those old heros.
Serbs who lives in bosnia is like drunk agressive neighbour of yours. you never know when he gets mad or why. and disturb whole apartment for hours yet you can not say any thing because he wont understand.
So brotherhood is something else Turkey has a lot and in Balkan i prefer bosnians.
suspiciousted@reddit
Not even a cousin by far. To 🇦🇱 you're more like a long gone enemy who you'd not refuse to salute on the street if he's the first to say hi.
honeydew-34@reddit
Bosnians (only boşnaks) maybe but Albanians no I guess maybe some in Kosovo that don’t hate Turks but still wouldn’t call them brothers.
Stormrage44@reddit
Yeah maybe keep your simping to yourself.
herhangibirperson@reddit
No, just, no
slavaukrajini1995@reddit
Biti će Zagreb Turska mahala
bugog@reddit
The reason is Turkey is home for millions of Albanians and Bosnians. They were never behaved or seen any different than Turkish people. It is sad to see that many people from Albania and Bosnia hate Turkey or Turkish people. It reminds me how Pakistani people love Turkey but are not loved back. I guess Turkey is Pakistan of Albania and Bosnia.
AogamiBunka@reddit
I'm very happy Bosnia and Hercegovina is in the World Cup but celebrating Turkey is gross.
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
Bosnians and Albanians are looking up by Turks because they see them as European Muslims ottomans while the Turks are the Middle Eastern ottomans.
smrdibuba_mirise@reddit
Boot lickers 🤣
KakaoFugl@reddit
TEK BIIIIIR 🤣
Ujemegaz@reddit
Jannisaries power 💪😎
Kejo2023@reddit
Reddit is not the place for these debates. Christian Albanians are worse than Serbians IMO. Bosnian Serbs are flat out fascist for the most part while urban Serbians are often very kind people. Our friendship with the Balkans is very clearly bound to religion and culture. Greek people are seen as much closer to us than than any Romanian or Bulgarian but due to geopolitical (not racial) conflicts, it's not a prominent topic.
There're layers and complex social and historical dynamics playing out that make this very Sub full with people from the West the worst place to ask for opinions.
dr_prdx@reddit
❤️🫡
AlbanianCatholic@reddit
There is no brotherhood between us.
I can respect respectable people, but that's it.
LegioXI89@reddit
🤮 Stockholm sindrome
physoc@reddit
Kutlu olsun!
ThePurpleKing159@reddit
Tired of Muslims in Arab worlds trying to take away our Bosnians. Get your own!