Balkaners who moved to Western Europe and the USA how was your experience with the locals?
Posted by KhanofSeljuks@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 105 comments
I was born in America and moved back 6-7 years ago. I am basically still an alien and literally have no-one to talk to to this day. The locals I met through undergrad and grad school were super cliquey and passively hostile towards me for no good reason. I guess I just want to know if this is the experience of other Easterners to put myself at ease.
Silly-Avocado-@reddit
Not Balkan, but since “American” is a national identity it’s much easier to integrate into American culture and identity than in Western Europe.
You can speak German, have a German passport and go to a German school and yet people will still have an issue with your mere existence.
RossMxx@reddit
In Western Europe (especially in the north), it almost impossible to build deep relationships with the locals.
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
Why do you think so?
RossMxx@reddit
The locals will never see you as equal (I mean socially) In countries like Denmark or Netherlands.
LibrarianByNight@reddit
I think it's that, but also that they make all their friends in primary school and literally can't figure out how to make time for another friend. People will actually say, "I like you, but don't have room for more friends".
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
Have they told you so or is that your feeling of inferiority?
RossMxx@reddit
Well I haven't met each and every one of them.
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
But the ones you've met have told you so?
RossMxx@reddit
Not explicitly, if that's what you ask.
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
I am just trying to understand why you think you'll never be equal to them socially speaking
tolmaenjoyer@reddit
My experience as well, especially woth Germans
meeplith@reddit
I’m Turkish-American and the US is the loneliest place I’ve lived in. I lived in NYC for a few years and also a more town vibes place and both were so excruciatingly lonely. The individualism and the US-centric culture really fucking got on my nerves after 7 years.
I then moved to London and the only people I managed to get close to are all Balkans and Italians. So yeah.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
You are literally me. I moved here without any close family and I am literally going crazy at this point. I was questioning whether I was autistic or something due to how weird people act around me but knowing there are others who felt the same deadly silence of social isolation here is very comforting.
It really sucks to miss out on important milestones in life here. I’m literally 24 and have no memories from college or grad school and never even dated before. Shit is depressing.
meeplith@reddit
I’m 31 so a bit older than you but I’ve been abroad since I was 18. This year finally I made the insane decision to move back to Turkey. It’s been on my mind for a few years but I still felt like I wasn’t done with the story but it became hard to picture myself there long term. And I tried.
Now my priorities have shifted. I’m like please give me Mediterranean weather and the sea, ambient cigarette smoke, sidewalks that feel like parkour, and people who don’t feel like they’re performing a personality 24/7.
Archaeopteryx111@reddit
Why move to Turkey and not a Western European Mediterranean country?
humanistazazagrliti@reddit
This is a great idea and might be a good "hack" for people from the Balkans. For example, Spain can be a very cool experience, where the mentality might be similar in certain things, as the people are very social and a lot of life happens outside. Plus, the weather isn't hostile if you don't mind the heat. Economically, they're more successful than the Balkans and they're more open to migrants than, let's say, Slovenians or even some parts of Italy.
Fantastic-Yak-6373@reddit
As a Spanish I beg to differ, I'm actually thinking about moving to somewhere in The Balkans because life in Spain is becoming unlivable.
RossMxx@reddit
Buddy trust me, you are good in Spain compared to the Balkans.
Fantastic-Yak-6373@reddit
I met a waiter in Bosnia who was living with a better cost/quality of life ratio than I do. I know balkaners feel that you're always in deep shit, which might be true on a macro level, but on an individual level I see people going about their daily lives in a happier way than me. I'd rather be poor in a poor country than be poor in this weird thing that is Spain, with German prices but Moroccan salaries.
RossMxx@reddit
Lol, you don't have Moroccan salaries nor German prices. Not even in Madrid.
poppopfizz@reddit
how tf do you guys have this level of confidence? bro is literally spanish and you're teaching him his country without even living there lmao
RossMxx@reddit
Not my problem if you can't understand the standards of living of a country just by visiting it. What as I said is the Spain doesn't have Moroccan salaries nor German prices. Those are facts. The only real problem Spain has is massive unemployment (which again is way less than it used to be). Now our friend here might be considering that life in the Balkans is better than life in Spain. Maybe he has some roots in the region making him seeing things idealistically. In general it is not, although it depends a lot on where exactly do you live.
poppopfizz@reddit
not my problem if you're superficial and shallow enough to think you can understand the standards of living of a country just by visiting it for a limited time. 🤷🏻♀️
RossMxx@reddit
Not my problem if you are a pontic Greek.
poppopfizz@reddit
bruv how does that even correlate? lmao some mental people on the internet i swear
Fantastic-Yak-6373@reddit
Are you greek? I think I can sense this pessimism that I don't see among other Balkaners, I think you greeks have had it hard because you thought you had become part of 'modern Europe' when in reality, well... I feel you, I also wouldn't exchange Spain for Greece, I'm thinking more about Bosnia/Albania.
RossMxx@reddit
Yes. Well we did become part of Europe, we just didn't get Danish standards of living, lol. Been to Madrid area recently, fun place and prices were very reasonable (apart from some tourist traps). Maybe I saw them like that coming from UK.
Fantastic-Yak-6373@reddit
Realities can be very different in different parts of the country. My city is among the top 10 most expensive ones to live in.
Beautiful_Limit_2719@reddit
well, Bosnia has the German prices also.
humanistazazagrliti@reddit
Service and taxes are also cheaper, but that doesn't mean much with a Bosnian income.
Beautiful_Limit_2719@reddit
Yes, I meant the prices of groceries are the same,almost everything else is cheaper, I would add real estate prices are also much lower.
meeplith@reddit
Yeah if Spain wasn’t so massively and loudly xenophobic
RossMxx@reddit
Spain isn't xenophobic.
humanistazazagrliti@reddit
Unlivable economically or also culturally?
Fantastic-Yak-6373@reddit
A bit of both... I'm from a very beautiful city that has become famous in recent years, so we've gotten a looot of 'expats' and the vibe of the city has really changed from bohemian/hippy town to influencer/digital nomad hipster cafés, which has made the housing/job marked go crazy.
I'm missing some authenticity that has been killed in the last few years, I know The Balkans are developing fast too, and in many ways I'm happy for them, but every developing country seems to fall for the same global capitalist traps.
Oxcuridaz@reddit
Eres de la terreta? Porque esa descripcion me suena a Valencia... :D
Fantastic-Yak-6373@reddit
Podría ser cualquier ciudad medio-cerca de la costa... en mi caso Girona :') Ánimos!
humanistazazagrliti@reddit
I see. Thanks for your insight.
Slow-Charity-2194@reddit
If you’re a qualified employee with experience you earn more in turkey than other southern europe countries
meeplith@reddit
I don’t like em
jaunmilijej@reddit
Omg I need your tips for moving back because I am thinking about doing the same after my PhD. Can I ask you some questions?
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
The fatigue is real. I never realized it would be like this and had REALLY high hopes before moving here. Not making a single friend over 6-7 years was just insane. The sad part is as you said even when im in the presence of other people they are so performative and non-genuine that you don’t actually feel good after being in their presence. The vibes are super judgmental.
Turkey has become a shithole in the meantime also so going back isn’t really an option either. I feel like I just have to make peace with the fact that I will never experience anything in life and die alone in seclusion most likely. I am currently in law school with scholarship so I am putting in a lot of effort but it is simply just not happening for me :(
meeplith@reddit
I think what you say matters, your environment and social world is a massive part of your happiness. Look I’m not saying do what I did because it was reckless and impulsive, but I was doing a PhD in neuroscience that I had worked SO hard for. I was barely 2 years in and suddenly went u know what… I’m gonna drop everything and leave. So I did. London was a different story but I’m leaving there now too. All I’m saying is don’t fall for sunk cost fallacy.
Sure Turkey sucks in a lot of ways. It’s unstable and chaotic and shitty, and I have no idea if I’ll be happy here either, but every choice comes with its own loss. You’re always trading one thing for another.
LastHomeros@reddit
I don’t want to break it to you, but it’s easier to integrate in the US than in European countries unless you know the local language. That’s why many immigrants in European cities hang out with people from similar cultures.
Archaeopteryx111@reddit
Hi, Romanian-American here. Why don’t you try to make friends with other Balkaners/immigrants?
I had a Turkish friend that started to go to a nearby Greek Orthodox Church for community and life advice from the priest.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
There aren’t that many in the area I live and I don’t have a car so it is hard to get around. I have some Greeks in my program but they are all like 3rd generation so they are full blown Americans like the rest.
I will make sure to attend more Balkan events when I get to the city however.
Archaeopteryx111@reddit
Where do you live? Hispanic/Latin immigrants are also quite similar to Balkan people. If you’re studying law for a three year program, which isn’t that long, really think about where you’d like to be after that.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
I’m in New York so there are both Hispanics and Balkaners here. I just need to graduate asap and get my life started. I have a Ukrainian-American acquaintance in class that is also nice too.
DeInking@reddit
Do you know the Amish Market? Actually there are several of them. They are owned and operated mostly by Turkish people. Many young Turkish people work there while studying at various universities across NYC. You can go check it out. It’s attracting many other Turks working in the city and stopping by for lunch or dinner or coffee. It also functions as a cafe. Don’t know how realistic it is but perhaps you can meet someone there.
varzaguy@reddit
New York City? Full of Balkaners, gotta go find em.
Archaeopteryx111@reddit
Yes, one step at a time, one day at a time.
humanistazazagrliti@reddit
Also, I'm not sure if that's a good fit, but from Bosnian emigrants to the US, I hear that they're more comfortable about having Hispanic American friends than people of Anglo origin.
Humble-Ask-8691@reddit
how did you move to london? was it on work visa or something?
Slow-Charity-2194@reddit
Turkish too. I moved to western europe but was thinking of moving to NY later to earn more. Never thought of this possibility, thanks for insights
Super_Sherbet_268@reddit
aren't you balkeners white european looking people? I mean except for different accent , its not like you guys are out on ICE pickup list?
deathflowerprincess@reddit
I don't feel home nor welcome there. But I've gotten used to the personal space and just living my own life that it's strange to have nothing of that in Albania. On the other hand Albanians are just so kind. Will have a genuine conversation with you, invite you over to their table, take their time just to have an enthusiastic discussion. But then on the other hand they are super clingy - whereas in NY you have the same minus the clinginess and because of that everyone is easy going and easy to talk to (without strings attached)- but also in a rush, cos money is to be made. Balkaners sometimes act like money just falls down from the sky which can be annoying in itself.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
Albanians are super kind to me here also. They are not afraid of talking to strangers and I feel like that really sets them apart from other Americans. Americans are generally so fake that it comes off as rude and aggressive almost. I hate not knowing whether they actually like me or not which overtime made me lock myself into my shell.
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
But why do you care whether they like you or not as long as they're polite to you?
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
I mean if it is someone you spend a good amount of time with through school etc. you want to know where you stand with them otherwise you just feel uncomfortable and judged.
Would you want to engage with or invest in someone who is polite but secretly talks shit behind your back or hates you?
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
Well if we are friends and they talk badly behind my back, then we wouldn't be friends anymore. But if we are colleagues or acquaintances, I don't much care for what they say behind my back, why would it affect me? There's not such an investment to be lost
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
Well in order for you to know if they are truly your friends you need to know whether they like you or not so that you can stop being friends with them if they secretly don’t.
People here put more effort into acting like they like you when they actually really don’t and nobody would want to be in the company of someone that secretly hates them.
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
I think it's easy to know whether you're friends with somebody by their actions. No need to ask whether they like you or not - do they want to spend time with you? do you have common hobbies? are they respectful and do they support you?
I've heard that about the UK lots of times, I think you emphasize being liked way too much. You're alright, there's no hate or love
deathflowerprincess@reddit
Americans have no culture really. They do profit of the cultural riches they get from immigration. Too bad they don't want them there anymore.
markohf12@reddit
Lived in the US for about 10 months (temporary work assignment), took me about a week to blend right in, super easy, people do notice my accent which is slightly off, but I did grew up with a neighbors kid who for some weird reason moved from Florida to Macedonia and spoke zero English. Americans would try to randomly guess where in the US I was from and I would respond with "you got it, go crabs", no one picked up on the fact I wasn't even American, until that one time I told a colleague to take the exist in about 250 milimiles once I saw the sign that the next exit is 1/4 of a mile, he was very confused.
Currently live in the Netherlands for about 5 years, I thought that I will get the "Eastern European" treatment, but all I got was "first time hearing about the existence of that country", which is nice cuz no stereotypes.
Rebelbot1@reddit
The "Eastern European treatment"? That's still a thing? The Netherlands, especially in the big cities, there is quite the minority population, most commonly Turkish people, but also some arabs. Dutch people seem pretty contempt with migration.
Flaky_Specialist1143@reddit
Racist people still exist
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
I’m happy to hear that. I guess I am technically “white” in terms of looks but I am from Istanbul and come from a Muslim background. This might have widened the gap between me and Westerners even more.
Martha_Fockers@reddit
Never had a issue with anything moved to America if I mention I’m from Albania most Americans had no clue what the hell that was and would ask questions where it’s at what’s it like etc
Never felt any time of any type of hostility or hatred from anyone here personally always been welcomed and treated well.
ilovemangos3@reddit
That’s nice. I pretty commonly hear from foreigners that americans were the most curious about peoples’ background
Martha_Fockers@reddit
Yea half of them wanna know what it’s like back in Albania what language we speak or where it’s located
The other half wanna know how to say some swear words lmao
travelingsket@reddit
Une jam American. Dhe e dua Shqiptare.
Martha_Fockers@reddit
ilovemangos3@reddit
I get it, Ive been lurking here for years now and would really like to visit tirana. never been to europe tho
treba_dzemper@reddit
What do you mean they don't know. They helped you about that Aberbaijan thing didn't they
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
I moved to the US 16 years ago. People here are cool, and they usually try to say something nice/positive about Greece, according to their interests. I have heard for example Americans speaking positively about ancient Greece, either Athens (see democracy) or Sparta (see the movie 300), about Yanni or Vangelis and even about Antetokounmpo.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Same when I moved to Canada. The reality is that Greece has a good reputation abroad with westerners. Not even just westerners but maybe on the global stage.
IamNerdAsian@reddit
I think most Europeans I encountered have positive views on greece, other than a few turk of course 😅
OwnEntertainment8771@reddit
Im Bulgarian, I’ve been living in the USA for 6 years. I can’t be any lonelier. Seemingly, locals are nice, but any friendships and interactions are on superficial level. In fact, they are so nice that I thought they are medicated. It’s difficult to relate to anyone as we share no common experiences to build a relationship on. I’m married here and I have kids and mommy friendships are the worst, I don’t even try anymore. Also, as a Bulgarian I’m awfully blunt, something that the locals don’t always appreciate. I cannot tiptoe on every sensitive topic. I try. In Bulgaria I feel like I was a likable person and it was super easy to make friends. I did not own a tv, I used my home to sleep in. On weekends I would just text a friend to go for a coffee and hang out. Now i have 10000 subscriptions for various channels. Here, it’s so challenging to plan a coffee with someone, it needs to be planned well in advance and usually rescheduled several times. Such effort is not justified by the quality of interaction. But if you consider the fact that Americans moved a lot from state to state it makes sense, they don’t get attached. I accepted that I’ll be lonely for the foreseeable future:) Most people assume I’m Russian, when I’m with my husband, also Bulgarian, they think we are Jewish, Italian, Lebanese. Funny story, a medical professional examining me asked if I’m going back to Moscow when I finish my studies. It was so awfully specific.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit (OP)
God, I understand you at such a deep level. I have been accused of being very blunt and rude before also just because I am clear cut with my answers and don’t do the whole passive aggressive Anglo back and forths. My bluntness was usually praised back home but here people find it offensive and brutish and honestly I can’t care less.
I tried to ask some colleagues out for a coffee but they got visibly uncomfortable and were weirded out. I think they always assume there is a romantic intent whenever a man asks someone out. They simply don’t want to see you outside of the school/work building.
The fake smiles are a staple in American culture and it is a deeply disturbing habit tbf. It is almost as if they are mocking your social intelligence by assuming you won’t notice the underlying nastiness and bitterness. The fake niceness ruins the mood for no reason immediately.
OwnEntertainment8771@reddit
Hah the ai bots. In the rare occasions I tried to socialize I felt like a clown constantly trying to say something funny and entertain the group.
Totobanzai@reddit
It depends where you are living, I remember coming over in the 1990’s; it was hard to connect with Americans but making friends with other Balkaners is great. We had Macedonians, Serbians, and even Greeks. So not 100% like home but some comfort from them. Also the Russia thing is very accurate. They still ask if I’m Russian.
reverber@reddit
Sorry you haven’t found anybody to hang out with yet. I am American married to a Bulgarian and we kind of just started training our American friends to be more Bulgarian. We have both American and Bulgarian friends, so that helps - more instructors available.
It is difficult to overcome the “live to work” culture, but we started scheduling regular Friday get togethers either at somebody’s house or at a local brewpub. Holidays are always celebrated, especially Bulgarian ones like Name Days. Many of our friends now expect meals to start with shopska (never as tasty as the real thing) and rakiya. Some even order rakiya and sirene for their own households.
Several of our friends have made the pilgrimage to Bulgaria - one couple has been several times.
Regarding the “American smile” it is often done so they don’t cry. It isn’t meant for you, but for them.
Totobanzai@reddit
I moved here after the communist collapse back on April 1st 1991. (35 years today) When we got her people were very anti. Got better during the 2000’s. Been pretty good except when some older Americans hear me speaking Bulgarian. They start to get angry and such. Though most are just curious and love to find out more.
iammymaster28@reddit
I have never travelled abroad but I genuinely wanna live in the US, Western Europeans seem evil.
Icy-Engineering9912@reddit
I moved to the UK when I was a child. I never had an issue with how people treated me. I’d never voluntarily tell people where I was from, people rarely asked. English people are weird about these things, too polite to ask. They avoid asking about your background. I think people just thought I was English anyway, but I always felt like an outsider.
DeInking@reddit
I always felt very welcome in the US. Moved there in the 90s as a child and even when I couldn’t speak the language, my teachers were trying to help me integrate and never, not even once, did I feel like I’m not welcome and I don’t belong. Then I moved to Western Europe in my 20s and aside from a few nice people I met here and there, most people have been cold and indifferent (best case scenario) to dismissive and outright hostile.
ThePurpleKing159@reddit
I was born in Croatia but went to America in 98'. I grew up in a city that honestly was good for my family, it was quiet and good economy and cheap at the time. Ive since gone back to Croatia but I can say that America has a special place in my heart even if the geo-politics of America has a special place in hell.
paranoidtrader@reddit
Good. Married two of them.
deathflowerprincess@reddit
Isn't a harem more of a middle eastern concept?
paranoidtrader@reddit
Idk but divorce is worldwide I guess
Low_Skill_4096@reddit
you know that also european muslim exist, ? like albanians, bosnians, torbeshi, goranci, pomaks? and also muslim gypsys?
StevenAdamsInDallas@reddit
But do you know polygamy is illegal in Europe? lol
Low_Skill_4096@reddit
why you as american give me answer? this is balkan sub.
hayde ...git.
deathflowerprincess@reddit
Yes I am a Muslim myself but we don't have harems in Albania
Low_Skill_4096@reddit
bosnia had...also kosovo had in the past, even in north macedonia
deathflowerprincess@reddit
To ne znala, dyakuyu za uchitsya!
StevenAdamsInDallas@reddit
Three time's the charm.
humanistazazagrliti@reddit
I moved to Germany from Bosnia 13 years ago.
Germans are harder to make friends with, as most of them have friends they already made in school, at university or some club. So as adults, they don't actively look for friends like people who just moved here and, this is the most important part, they don't look as much for loose and causal acquaintances as people in the Balkans, South Europe or Anglo countries. I think that this is the biggest difference: Germans are not as good with these warm casual encounters. For people who were only socialised in the Balkans, this can be super hard: People reacting weird because you brought them burek or cake, even though you've just known them for a month, or a colleague being uncomfortable because you want to make friends with them too quickly. And then, if you do make friends, it's a challenge if a German hasn't had a lot of foreign friends, so it depends on you getting their culture, jokes, etc. It's a struggle for both sides, but much harder for migrants in general. However, in big cities like Berlin, people are more interested in other cultures, so it's easier there.
That being said, the advantage in Germany is that people aren't so much up in your business. I don't have neighbours anymore who constantly gossip about my life to others and, when looking for a job, I won't depend on having a strong casual network of people who have to put in a good word for me. Also, once you have a close German friend, I have a feeling that they tend to be less flaky than a lot of Bosnian friends I had. In Bosnia, you will sometimes have friends who won't be comfortable openly telling you that you're not close friends. So when you call them during an emergency, they might not be there for you. I feel like a lot of Germans are more upfront about this. They'll tell you: You can or can't call me at 3 AM if you need something. In addition, German society also expects you and teaches you to be more self-reliant and not call relatives or friends for every little thing, but rather try to accomplish something first. In Bosnia, I had the feeling that a lot of people will call their dad, sister or uncle for every little problem they have.
Since there's a lot of Balkan or other people here and Germany is becoming more diverse, it's easier to have both Balkan and German friends here for different needs, but you still need to learn the language and cultural codes quickly in order to feel at home.
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
never again usa.
Professional_Rip8210@reddit
Im Serbian but living in Florida. I find it quite similar. People usually extroverted and nice but crazy af and never following any laws or rules. Expecially traffic ones.
But tbh you do you and hyper individualism is really extreme and some people really allow themselves too much
cocoadusted@reddit
Yes
Archaeopteryx111@reddit
I have lived in the US most of my life. I have adapted to American customs for professional advancement, but it’s not my real personality.
Green-Diamond6874@reddit
They all suck. I tried them all. There's no better life than in Balkan. Stay home with the family and friends
sayinmer@reddit
https://i.redd.it/wbb7ifboghsg1.gif
IAmTheForce90@reddit
Great. Just blend the fuck in 🇺🇸 🦅