Who do you think deserved a redemption, or at least a better redemption arc??
Posted by LilyofTheValley_7@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 88 comments
saw this video on tiktok about characters that deserved a redemption arc, but were just killed off instead šš
for me, that character is definitely Hope, I truly love her character and feel like she deserved so much more. Would've also been interesting to see her having to fight her dark side, and her father's influence. I'm not a big fan of the whole Livia/Eve arc, just because I feel it's a slap in the face to Gabrielles arc, and it just moves too quickly. So that's another reason I kinda wish we had a redemption for Hope.
I think it also would've been an interesting dynamic to Xena and Gabrielles relationship, because it would've confronted Xena's dark past.
Jahon_Dony@reddit
Definitely not Hope. She was a body, a vessel, an instrument for evil... NOTHING more!!
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
Hard disagree. She wasn't given the chance to be anything else because of Xena's immediate judgement.
SakuraTacos@reddit
Yup and she was willing to give people like Callisto second chances, too. She didnāt even want to give a literal baby its first chance.
I think, in my own personal headcanon and I know you think differently, that Hope wouldāve been evil regardless but, for Gabrielleās sake, Xena was out-of-line for the way she acted.
queeeeeni@reddit
Callisto was a person born with a soul, Hope is a demon.
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
I'm glad you still agree that Xena's behaviour was questionable in that situation despite us being on seperate sides about a good future for Hope. It would have been nice though to see Gabrielle give her a different future and actually make something worthwhile after such a traumatic ordeal rather than the endless suffering that was poured on in Season 3 instead. And of course when Eve comes along as well know simply cos she's Xena daughter its a completely different kettle of fish despite the mass genocide she carried out.
Ok_Kangaroo_2160@reddit
Not to mention Gabrielle had to kill her like 3 times ššš and Xena expected her to "get over it" like it wasn't a HUGE loss.
Ngl, Xena's insensitivity really got on my nerves sometimes. It makes me wish Gabrielle had left her for a bit, but thankfully, Gabrielle is much more patient and understanding than I am.
Pwaise_Hestia@reddit
https://i.redd.it/yb3ngkw80gsg1.gif
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
I can't believe you would say that to me šš LMAO
Jahon_Dony@reddit
Ok, Dahaak. I see you.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Shhhh, we're rebranding š„³ first stop, redemption, then world domination
Jahon_Dony@reddit
Baby steps, D. Baby steps.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
šš I'll try
Fuzzy_Ability8284@reddit
Definitely Najara, they did my girl kinda dirty when she came back. The Tarzan fight scene was pretty fun though.
queeeeeni@reddit
she was my first thought, if Xena could kill the djinn Najara might be a normal person again
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Oooh that is a great one! I really loved her character, was sad we only saw her in two episodes, lowkey kinda agreed with her on certain topics (the corrupt government part), so it would've been great to see her become "good" and actually figure out how to change the system without senseless killing.
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
I've always debated Najara being a 'bad guy' personally.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Exactlyyyy, she technically wasn't wrong. Sure she was a little insane, and suffering from religious psychosis, butttttt she wasn't wrong about the corrupt governments, and slave traders. And she was getting the job done...that's all I'm saying š
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
The influence of the Djinn was a large factor too. I've always believed they were in contact with her and were also manipulating her. That's the only way I can rationalise her written behaviour in The Convert. I always felt Xena was a massive hypocrite when it came to Najara also - and also we have to accept there was some jealously going on there too - she often acted as judge, jury and executioner herself in varying degrees of swiftness and gave people less chance to live a lot of the time.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
I always wondered if they were real, or if they were trauma induced. It also could've easily been entities like the furies, and she was just better at keeping her sanity than others were. Especially since we don't actually know anything about her backstory, she really was a mis opportunity šš
Agent8699@reddit
I think they were real. Najara had knowledge that it would otherwise be very difficult to learn.Ā
Stellaristix@reddit
Xena šššš«
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Lmaooooo, I pretend the last episode is real, just because of that šššš
stardust102@reddit
wish they had done two versions of last ep
MaryW1965@reddit
I havenāt even watched it yet and Iām terrified! I know what happens but there is no preparing for it Iām sure! I have 10 episodes left before the finale. Any advice?
SakuraTacos@reddit
Knowing what happens already puts you at a huge advantage. Just go into it with an open mind. It isnāt perfect but it was made with a lot of love.
This might not make sense until youāve finished it but they gave us the happy ending before the finale. In fact, they gave us several endings to choose from.
AFIN is one of my favorite episodes of the series, so I do hope you enjoy it!
MaryW1965@reddit
Why couldnāt the writers just let them walk away, hand in hand, into the sunset on a beach? Lmao! š¤£ it literally makes me want to throw up when she gets hurt (Xena). Like I said, itās mostly all I wait for everyday. Iām hooked
Popular-One-7051@reddit
That's is why I stop at WFC when they ride off together.
MaryW1965@reddit
Good that you stopped at WFC if you are an emotional wreck at romance or crazy about either or both of them. It was brutal and I sobbed but I got through it.
stardust102@reddit
Yer this they could have done an alternate version
MaryW1965@reddit
ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢. Spoiler Alert ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ Does Xena die in AFIN episode 21 or 22?
SakuraTacos@reddit
I know how you feel, I think I cried almost every single time Xena cried the first time I watched š«£
When I watched the finale for the first time, I just started right back over again at S1E1, and it was all better again! Problem solved, Xenaās fine, everythingās fine š
And you can also give Spartacus and Ash vs Evil Dead a watch after Xena, too!
MaryW1965@reddit
Thatās great advice, I donāt have the series so Iām at the mercy of Comet channel on cable. I canāt believe they savagely kill her off! So disappointed already š¢
Popular-One-7051@reddit
Yeah second half of AFIN on Comet today but you get episode one right after
Popular-One-7051@reddit
I just stop at When Fates Collide, but I guess everyone should watch AFIN once.
stardust102@reddit
Me to or many happy returns i canāt watch last ep
Popular-One-7051@reddit
I just love the even Ceaser is saying "and she gets to ride off with her girlfriend." Other characters refer to them as partners and it doesn't sound like they mean business partners
IseQween@reddit
Watch the director's cut if possible. Pick a time when you can be relaxed. Get comfortable, maybe with snacks, glass of wine and, yes, tissues. Savor every moment of seeing Lucy & Renee performing in their last XWP ep. Enjoy the scenes of beauty, excitement, partnership, love. Maintain your usual suspension of disbelief about "what the heck?" Accept you may shed tears at the finale of what's probably one of your favorite shows. Afterwards, if you feel like it, share or vent your response with us.
MaryW1965@reddit
Thank you for caring! Iām a romantic at heart and tend to become attached to things and I am definitely attached to XWP mostly Xena then Gabrielle. It what I look forward to everyday. My cable plays 3 episodes daily. I will try to relax over this it just makes me sad itāll be over for me
IseQween@reddit
Keep in mind it's not over for many of us, even after about three decades. You've got this group, multiple replay sources, fanfic, gatherings -- not to mention fond memories -- to keep it alive.
stardust102@reddit
agree still reading xena and gabby fanfic
rationalcunt@reddit
I waited forever to watch it in full and finally did this year. To me, it felt like any other story arc in the series because they die and come back so many times. The actual reasoning for the plot felt forced to me and like the writers had randomly pulled from one of their idea buckets. It didn't feel like an ending that did any callbacks to the rest of the series because of the new setting and characters we've never seen before. So that was frustrating, especially after the previous episodes in the season being so in line with the beloved characters.
Because they did a direct homage to kung-fu movies, it's got some cool visuals (costumes, scenery and special effects) and as a piece of film is worth the watch. Just maybe follow up with When Fates Collide and Many Happy Returns š
magical_lasso@reddit
Hit the nail on the head!
SolidSnakeMGS2@reddit
Hope absolutely does not deserve a chance!! She is pure evil! She shares blood and spirit with Dahak!!!
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
So tell us who you think did?
SolidSnakeMGS2@reddit
I actually wanted an attempt of redemption for Callisto that didnāt involve Hercules/Hope and see her at least try to deal with it
Glad_Ostrich_9709@reddit
I always found the entire Hope arc so hilariously hypocritical.
It's not like we were given MULTIPLE examples in the series that redemption is always possible. That one of the big core messages of the series in itself is that no matter what circumstances have driven you to do wrong and become your worst self, there's a way to better days if you're willing to try for it.
Oh, but see that over there? The little baby over there with an evil god for a father and one of the strongest, kindest, most loving women ever for a mother? Yea, that thing's beyond saving. Kill it.
SolidSnakeMGS2@reddit
Consider that hole wasnāt exactly human. She had a human vessel but she was solely for the purposes of Dahak to use. She knew of evil and chose it even as a baby, as a toddler, as a girl and as a human. She was rapidly growing!!! I donāt understand the purpose of her growing so fast within weeks. Iām scared to even know why she was rapidly growing, and what happens at the end? Gabrielle couldnāt have nurtured her as Hope can manipulate, oddly the Dahak offspring from Hope seems to enjoy the nurture from Hope
Ok_Kangaroo_2160@reddit
Hope was entirely Dahak's to control; it would've been more interesting if Gabrielle had a chance to nurture and care for her child. She had potential to be good, sure, it wasn't guaranteed, but there was a chance.
I mean, Xena was tempted to give in to her darkness many, many times, and so Gabrielle had to take a chance to bring her back from it. Regardless of what the outcome could've been.
It pains me to no end when Gabrielle claims she's not really maternal, when I know for a fact she would've been a great mother. But given the trauma behind Hope's conception and birth, I can't imagine she would want to go through it all again.
Dramatic-Strain9757@reddit
Hope is a demonic hell spawn from an evil God. Where is the redemption supposed to fit in
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
This moment right here, when she's begging her mom to join her because she doesn't want to have this baby alone. Then the episode when she posing as Gabrielle, and is talking to her in her room. The realization that Hope desperately wanted her mother, and didn't even know how to be a mother herself.
Those would've been great moments, to start bringing a redemption for her, fighting her father's influence and joining her mother.
Even if she didn't join Gabrielle, it would've been great to have Hope realize she wanted more than what evil her father offered, and disappear with her child.
Eve is born of two women who were homicidal manics, with no evil God influence, and yet all three of them got redemption.
The whole show is about redemption, and finding your own identity. Doesn't make sense to say just because she's born from an evil God, she is evil. Especially when she's shown to have humanity
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I agreed, Hope is capable of being good or at least feels love. Like her love for her mother Gabrielle and her son Destroyer, as she didnāt get the chance to be good as Xena.
Has ready label Hope evil, right after she was born. Before she killed the knight and then, she abandoned by her mother and raised by her father Dakah.
Raise and push to be evil, doing her bidding to bring darkness to the world. While Eve may not be born evil, but she done way more evil and terrible things.
Then Hope ever done in her life, yet Xena is hypocrite. When it comes to her daughter to save her soul, Eve hardly ever gets punished for her actions as Livia.
Excusing that, Eve lives with her crimes and gets a slap on the wrist. Pretty much getting a second chance, while Xena never given Hope the chance of that.
Dramatic-Strain9757@reddit
If Xena says you gotta go, you gotta go
Popular-One-7051@reddit
Yeah, maybe Hope. Like most people here, that whole thing where Xena wanted her killed when she was born had me uncomfortable. I'm only thinking it was because she was half god that Xena wanted her killed. Yeah it was a really evil god but still. Hercules was half god and he turned out ok. Gabby was pretty damned awesome and would have made a great mom.
I did always wonder how Hope's baby was a bunch of sticks Same with Grinhilda. Who are these people breeding with anyway?
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Ares and Hope are the parents of the destroyer, but I'm guessing Dhaak had a big influence in how the destroyer actually looked like. But the Greek gods all have some weird ass family tree, so I wouldn't be surprised if it came from Ares side.
I'm actually not entirely sure about grinhildas child? She was probably pregnant before turning into the monster, and then the child was affected by the curse as well.
SakuraTacos@reddit
Iām gonna say Ares deserved a better redemption arc. He got so much character development as a human and then when we flash forward in Xena Scrolls + Deja Vu/Soul Possession, heās back to his old antics like Motherhood, Coming Home, and Old Ares never happened at all! You mean to tell me, not only does Ares go back to pestering Xena, he continued to do so for thousands of years?!
magical_lasso@reddit
I'm torn on this - I completely agree with your sentiment, but for the first time in a long time I re-watched without the Ares rose-colored glasses on and I think his explanation in Path of Vengeance makes sense. "It's what I do" re: the scorpion. It seems to me they wanted to drive home that as a mortal, he started to have more humanity. As a god, he was selfish and couldn't overcome that.
TheCuri0usWatcher@reddit
I agree with this....Ares and Draco especially deserved better arcs. Ares wasn't so bad, I like the growth he experienced, but he deserved a more "complete" arc...some hobbies outside of Xena. Thousands of years is a loooooooooong time to obsess lol.
Draco had such a unique story when he was introduced and then he became a slapstick comedic relief.
AceItaliano@reddit
Didnāt help that Xena made him a God again
SakuraTacos@reddit
And thatās how he repaid her, tsk tsk š®āšØ
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
You're definitely right, that kinda annoyed me as well, but I just narrowed it down to him being jealous and petty. I definitely think they just didn't think extremely far ahead (I'm coping, considering by season 2? 3? They already gave him redeeming qualities)
SakuraTacos@reddit
I can excuse Xena Scrolls and Deja Vu but they wrote Soul Possession after all of Aresā character development. I love Soul Possession but what the heck, yāall lol š
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Nah fr, but just between you, me, and the entire Internet...I kinda like him evil š¤¤š¤¤
(They should've just stuck to one or the other, stop giving him redemption if you're just gonna take it away again. Same with joxer, they'd give him redemption, then snatch it away)
CaptainQueen1701@reddit
Different timeline, surely? Itās the old chakram. That wouldāve been the oath had they not be resurrected by Eli. That Ares is not the Area that saved Eve and Gabrielle.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I think there was a lot of story that, deserve a redemption arc. While Hope got some starring line, I donāt think she ever got any proper red redemption.
Eve is another character that, never got a full story arc of her character. After Livia just her flirting around and some episode, before her last appearance.
Maybe Virgil he seems a interesting character, but I felt like that heās only purpose in the show. just to have him be a cokeblocker between, the duo and be a love interest to Gabrielle.
As I feel like he shouldāve been his own character, instead of been a rehash of like his dad Joxer chasing Gabrielle.
Meushell@reddit
She is in my flair for a reason.
Poor Hope was never given a chance. She was a day old when Gabrielle was forced to abandon her over what might have been an accidentā¦assuming that Hope wasnāt just set up. She grew up with Dahak as her only guide. Of course she became evil.
Xenaās decision that Hope must be evil is never addressed either. Bitter Suite makes the issue about āIt never would have happened if she was obsessed with Caesar.ā That reason is, IMO, ridiculous. The issue is the decision to kill a baby.
We see that Hope loves her mom and her son, but she doesnāt really know how to express it. As a child, she tried to get motherly affection from Callisto.
The Destroyer is also clearly capable of love. If Hope could not have redemption, then he deserved a chance. He eats people because that is what heās been taught, because that what Hope wants, because thatās what Dahak wants. Thereās no indication that the Destroyer is being sadistic about it.
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
I always feel a lot of sadness in the scene where Hope and the Destroyer die and Xena's holding back of Gabrielle during the moment always really angers me.
Ok_Kangaroo_2160@reddit
I wonder if she did that out of protection or anger. On another note, Gabrielle's sad teary eyes always get to me - she's such a beautiful crier!
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Yessss you get it, you understand, at the end of the day she was a child, she has no real concept of good or evil. I mean even "adult" Hope is still extremely child-like (she's like max 3-5years old), and the destroyer, he did not deserve to go out like that.
I personally love the parallel of Solan and Hope, both being children abandoned at birth for their safety, but one had the guide of good people, and the other guided by evil. So it never really made sense to just kill her off, instead of the redemption path.
Agent8699@reddit
Absolutely Hope!
Maybe, in another world, Callisto too. Not a full redemption, but the planned storyline where she finds out her sister was still alive and in danger of following in Callistoās footsteps had a lot of potential to really humanise Callisto and allow her to grow a little.
Ok_Kangaroo_2160@reddit
Najara was an extremist - that can't be denied, but I found her to be oh so interesting! I can't see her being a full-on good guy, but she wasn't evil; she wanted to eradicate it.
Simply because Xena found her annoying, we're supposed to follow suit š I don't think so...
Callisto was such a shattered soul; I wouldn't have minded if she warmed up to Gabrielle and they traveled together. The first three seasons of this show are peak to me, so the Eve/Livia stuff didn't convince me to care much, not when Gabrielle's feelings were heavily dismissed.
Ok_Kangaroo_2160@reddit
Hope deserved a fair chance to fight against her dark side, just as Xena did. Eve/Livia only changed bc of divine influence, and while she expressed remorse for what she did, she probably ended up killing far more people than Hope ever did.
Sadly, regardless of whether or not Hope died at Xena's hand, as she commanded, Solan would've ended up dead anyway, and this is unfortunately a huge consequence of Xena's past. Did she deserve to raise her children? Yes, of course. But it's unfair for so many comparisons to be drawn between Eve and Hope, only for them to elevate Eve and to convey that only she was deserving of forgiveness.
If Hope had been raised by Gabrielle, would it have changed anything? Idk, but she clearly desired to be close to her mom despite everything that happened. I didn't get the same feeling from Livia's interactions with Xena - maybe I'm just hating.
MusicIsLife81@reddit
I think Hope did. Who knows what or who she might have become if Xena would have given her a chance. Yes she killed within a few hours of being born but for crying out loud she was a little child, not a grown adult and didn't know right from wrong. Perhaps if Xena had given her a chance and they had tried to raise her and shown her love she could have used her powers for good instead of evil but all she knew was loneliness and pain and who wouldn't have a chip on their shoulder after that.
But I can also understand Xena not wanting Gabrielle getting attached more to Hope than she already was if Hope indeed could not be saved and she had to be destroyed in the end.
Would Solan still be alive if they had given Hope a chance? Who knows? But I do think that Hope should have been given more of chance than she had, especially since Eve was instantly good from the start just because she was Xena's child and her former reincarnated soul had been saved and was now good.
Advanced-Log5899@reddit
Hope ĆØ uno di quei personaggi che avrebbe meritato molti piĆ¹ episodi nella serie.
Meritava una redenzione? Forse si.
CiĆ² che sicuramente non meritava era di essere abbandonata da Gabrielle in riva al fiume, ho odiato molto Xena in quell'episodio che ha costretto Gabrielle ad abbandonare/allontanare Hope!
Hope era solo una neonata, io credo che con Gabrielle vicino sarebbe potuta diventare una persona diversa
Quando ĆØ grande Hope si confronta con sua madre Gabrielle dicendogli che avrebbe solo voluto essere cresciuta da sua madre.
btm02673@reddit
I would have loved for Callisto have been around more. Xena and Callisto brought out the worst and best in each other.
I just didn't care for them killing her off.
It would been better if they had done a redemption storyline, but then she went to he'll, then then became an angel in Heaven. Only to then be reincarnated as Eve.
Evilbuffy14@reddit
I'm sorry. It's a hard disagree for me. Hope had enough screen time. There was no redemption, she was bad from... before birth. This wasn't a case of nurture versus nature, she was evil to the core. I think the only thing that kept her from going or being completely demonesque was that she was born of Gabrielle who is... mostly... pure and light. Xena was right to want to snuff out that demon beacon before it became a situation. But, oh! Gabrielle didn't listen, yet again, and look what happened. Sorry, but nope.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Mmmm I'm definitely gonna have to disagree with that, there's nothing that shows she was inherently evil from birth, only that she had heavy influences from her father, and powers from birth.
Even the killing of the soldier, Xena couldn't prove it was Hope, and even if it was, again small baby with no real concept of good or evil
Evilbuffy14@reddit
All good, all good. Differing opinions is what makes this fandom and subreddit fun. š¤
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Facts, that's how we thrive as a community
summer_james2@reddit
If hope didnāt kill solan I maybe wouldnāt have been fine with itā¦ but nope once she killed solan it was game over for me
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
To be honest I was more upset by the death of Joxer honestly. And I felt Solan pretty much had a target on his back when Xena resumed contact with him.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
I agree with that, if Gabrielle had a chance to raise Hope, and things still ended the same, I could've accepted that. But when we find out how desperately Hope wanted her mother to love her, it changes a lot.
I can definitely see Hope making a lot of mistakes, and letting evil influence her heavily, but with Gabrielle and Xena there to help her, I don't think it would've ended the same.
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
I honestly think it would have been a much more interesting storyline than the Rift.
summer_james2@reddit
Joxer has had a target on his back since joining up with Xena and gab and should have died several times throughout his time with them. Letās face it anyone who associates themselves with Xena has a target on their back either to be used against her to get her to do what her enemy wants or to be killed so that it hurts her. The difference with Joxer is he is an adult and got to live his life and have children and be happy. He also got to die like he wanted a hero saving Gabrielle. Solan is an innocent child. He already decided the way of the warrior wasnāt for him. If he had time with both Gabrielle and Xena he may have grown up to be the best of both of them. He never got a chance. He may have gotten to grow up happy but he never got to know his parents and died a tragic death scared and alone. Joxer was surrounded by family and friends when he died and Xena was able to take away Joxerās pain to make his death comfortable. Unfortunately, Solan didnāt get the same. Most people feel more towards Joxer bc he had more screen time but think of the situationsā¦ you may think differently
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Summer nooooo (understandable tho šš), high-key felt the exact same about joxer tho. Once bro died, I was mad as hell for weeks.
Solan death hit way too hard as well, I think it was the perfect catalyst for that season.
summer_james2@reddit
I love Joxer and was sooo sad about it too. I hated that he had to die.
And solans death hit perfectly the way it was supposed to for the season plot device. .. it just killed me that she was finally going to tell him and finally get the chance to be with him and it was stolen from her. And her screams.. omg her screams will forever haunt me. Bone chilling. Soo for that reason I canāt forgive hope. If she donāt kill solan I would be alll for it. Even if Hope had killed joxer or one of our other beloved characters I could have still gotten behind her.. but nah itās solan for me.. š
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
You know what understandable, it didn't help either that we saw multiple times how hard it was for Xena to give him up, and how hard it was for her to connect with him. š„ŗš„ŗ And his love for his mom to the point he spent years in hell watching her ššš they broke my heart with that, I wasn't the same ever again
Pop_Stensbold@reddit
Hands down agree about Hope. SO much lost potential there. I also feel Najara was basically thrown away by the writing staff and deserved at least one more appearance for some genuine and fairer resolution. Would have rather have had more of them than the whole Eve mess.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit (OP)
Dude yes, I think eve could've been an interesting character, but she honestly lacked a lot of depth, and it was frustrating to see how the storyline was handled.
Like she committed hella genocide, was actively selling people into slavery, literally executing people in the streets, then was forced to become good instantly. So she didn't even choose to become good and was still forgiven. Smh, would've enjoyed seeing something similar with hope instead, or najara having a good redemption arc, and helping the Amazons.