Truthfully no. If you have the room to slow down via regen you get a decent portion of that energy back. I hit the limiter in my rivian of 114mph in a little over 1/8th of a mile so we’re talking about less than 6 seconds of full throttle. A full throttle 0-60 doesn’t even touch my battery percentage.
As a matter of fact, a youtuber did a full video of drag races against every EV they could get people to bring to the track when it came out and he used less than 25% battery doing 40 quarter mile runs.
I'm curious on what car requires the most button presses to 1) adjust temp and 2) adjust fan speed.
For my car it's on the front page for temp, but fan speed is one layer down.
In my experience I’ve found that the auto climate control does a good enough job adjusting the fans vis-a-vis the temperature setting that I’ve never personally needed to adjust the fan speed manually. And technically, gimmicky as it is, I can use voice commands to adjust the fan speed too.
I totally respect why people prefer physical HVAC controls, just giving my 2¢.
Usually it's at the behest of a significant other. I'm hot, I'm cold, now I'm too hot again. There's also the need to turn on seat heat\cooling in specific times when you want it, and in many cars its buried one or two or three menu layers deep. And if you have android audo\carplay up, good luck, it's now like 7 interactions to adjust it.
This is kinda funny because rivian’s big screen and no AA means that passenger seat heater/coolling and temp controls are right on the screen all the time. There are no menu jumps to make unless you want to make bigger adjustments. It’s a major complaint for people but it’s extremely easy to access. The new version will have driver controls on the wheel for even more things but for a passenger it’s just as easy as physical buttons and wheels.
A local car magazine in partnership with a university [tested 10 new cars](https://tekniikanmaailma.fi/lehti/1b-2026/tutkimus-autojen-kayttoliittymat-missa-se-oikea-nappula-nyt-on/) and actually measured how long it took users to accomplish common tasks and some that were chosen as particularly difficult for the model. Turned out the reference mostly-physical-buttons VW Golf 7 only shared the second spot: while it took no time to adjust sound volume or climate settings with dedicated buttons, some others like entering an address, turning off lane keep assist or adjusting bass on the sound system took more time than in a newer car. The overall usability winner was deemed the Škoda Elroq whose infotainment turned out quite a bit more usable than on VW siblings.
Yeah after dealing with screens in my dad's Y (and various other cars) I'm very happy with what my S550 has. I feel like the peak was right before or during covid when you could get like an 8" touchscreen with Carplay, but still have physical buttons for everything below that.
One thing I enjoy about the GR is exactly the fact that it's "new old" for a modern car. I'm still considering deleting the screen and 3D printing a new single DIN trim for a normal radio to delete the slab, but it's not so egregious that it gets in the way of driving the car, which is a relief.
My '17 Cayenne is like that. It has tons of physical controls on the console but a relatively small (by today's standards) touchscreen with CarPlay in the dash. I think '17 and '18 were the only years with that configuration. 2016 and prior didn't have the CarPlay touchscreen and 2019 took away most of the buttons. The sweet spot came and left pretty quick.
‘23 Spyder
I feel this was a peak moment too. Sure the CarPlay screen is a bit modest, but it’s usable. Everything else is a physical button, so you can skip tracks, air con, volume etc - all with physical buttons you can _feel_ and don’t even need to take your eye off the road
Plus no beeps bongs or nags. The car gets out of your way and lets you get on with the driving
It's ironic because Porsche kept around that older style of interface in the 718 probably due to the fact it was the end of the line for the platform and they would've restarted all new with the 718 EV (probably with more screens/haptics/whatever). It's another reason why those late MY 718s are good forever cars, imo.
Seeing all the lights come on at night reminds me of a cockpit(also makes sure my battery still works). While I don’t have CarPlay I’m glad I got the newer steering wheel. Not sure if I would’ve been a fan of the older triangle
The cockpit effect is cool and the wheel is great although now I see why they moved performance settings to the lil' mode selector wheel appended to the steering wheel in later years. It's more efficient to use that little wheel than individually picking settings via the button cascade when suspension/engine/etc. are all separate sections of buttons. BMW has the best approach, imo, with the M buttons on the wheel and instant access to whatever configuration you want, tho.
The 2010s were, IMO, peak. For Carplay a 6" screen is just fine. Heck my 2005 911 has an OEM infotainment upgrade with a double-din Carplay compatible system. I don't need or want anything more. In my opinion it's a superior solution than the 16" screen in my Ford Mach-E. It feels like Ford put this massive screen in the car with absolutely no thought given to how to use that space effectively.
The double-din screen is big enough to use for navigation without issue. It doesn't incorporate any vehicle functionality, just infotainment. It's perfect.
The peak happened before CANBUS entertainment systems. My 2003 Duramax has a CANBUS equipped radio, which absolutely killed the whole truck when it failed until I took it out and now it just constantly throws codes about the Radio missing.
I’ve constantly seen people complain about those screens on r/mustang. If your screen dies, you can’t so much as adjust the temperature. The s550 really hit the perfect middle ground and the digital dash you could get with it hardly has any issues compared to the new one.
Pretty much spot on. I can't remember the exact amount since I haven't had the car for a while now, but no shit there were only like 5 or 6 physical buttons. Not even all of them were useful - one was a favorite button, and another was to put you into the MyMustang page (neither of which did anything if the screen was acting up). Literally everything you actually needed was on the touchscreen - even to your point ALL of the climate controls.
The '18 to '23 models really did perfect it then Ford screwed it up. I still want to kick myself in the ass sometimes for passing on a brand new '23 Mach 1 Premium A10 for 58k (it was sitting on a lot when the '24 MY cars came out and they had a couple Dark Horses there so they were willing to go down to 58k with me when sticker was 64k).
They should follow Tesla’s lead and use voice commands in addition to the screen. If that fails you can always control the temp from your phone. Fuck physical buttons. Leave those for Porsche.
My volvo did that years ago when they were still working on Sensus. Such a treat to have your entire center stack, including the AC and stereo, just die and go black while following the nav to your destination. I know the pain.
Pretty much all electric cars and most cars with infotainment displays.
The only ones not getting OTA updates are ones that shipped without a 4G/5G modem.
Any examples? Specifically AUTOMATIC OTA updates. The argument was "randomly bricks your car without any warning", as if they just happen by themselves.
Whatever the fuck you want to call it. I was paid by a vehicle manufacturer to offer my opinion on various things about vehicles, including my opinion on interiors, explicitly asking about how I feel about the move towards screens away from buttons.
Nearly every modern car has copied the Tesla system of Huge screen, loaded all the functions on it and called it a day. Even small shitboxes like Citroen C3's or VW Polos. However I was somewhat encouraged by the CEO of VW saying no more functions purely through touch screens
Are you willing to pay for them?
That's the thing... Do you want every Honda to cost an extra $600?
The average consumer would say they would rather have a screen and $600 in their pocket.
That doesn't really track. Even before the hellscape that is the 2020s, cars were losing buttons AND getting more expensive. The lack my of buttons was marketed a "premium" feature when the reality is that it was for cost savings. Now buttons and switches suddenly are a premium feature that costs more.
Remember when a 70" flat screen was $2,000 ten years ago?
And ten years before that something absurd you'd only see on MTV cribs at P Diddys house and cost $50,000.
And now they're $300.
We did fine for the last 100 years without shitty touchscreens. And tge idea that you're saving anything financially is rather amusing. The manufacturers MIGHT be saving costs but they sure as hell aren't passing them on to the customer.
But to answer your theocretic question directly, yes Id rather have buttons, rotaries and switches and pay the 600.
In your average consumer car, people want screens. That only people that make any fuss about it are car enthusiasts.
To your point... Okay, let's go back to buttons right now. You think the manufacturers are going to take that $ 600 out of their margin?
People like the screens for sat nav and music. They don't like them for other functions like HVAC, ventilation or moving the seats. Moreover, I don't know where you live but in Europe there is now legislation going through to force car manufacturers to remove basic functions from touch screens and go back to physical switches and buttons.
It's become a huge safety issue. You can be fined for using your phone whilst driving but its ok to scroll through menus on a touch screen looking for the damn heating fan? No. And thankfully manufacturers have seen sense. The next generation of vehicles will have quite different interiors.
I understand that... But also people act like they're endlessly living in the screen just to use the car.
Maybe you turn defrost on, then turn it off... But all cars with the screens now have automatic temperature control.
It's like at your house... Do you have an old wood furnace that you constantly have to put wood in? No. You have a thermostat that sure, some days you may move it up or down a little, but you don't sit there adjusting it all day long
completely predictable this lame ass excuse gets trotted out, "leave it in automatic bro" newsflash: some people live outside the bay area and have this thing called "weather"
I'm in the NE bro... I'm not endlessly fiddling with HVAC controls the entire time I'm driving. My Ford has everything in a screen... I don't love it, but it's not the end of the world.
Yes, I am personally willing to pay for them. One of the factors when shopping for my current car was/is the fact it has buttons, nice clicky ones too. I vote with my wallet.
Honda feels like a terrible example given their interiors are one of the most physical & ergonomic in that segment
You make up for it with terrible NVH & materials that scratch if you look at them the wrong way, but Honda customers are by your example more than willing to pay that $600
They're saying what is next is weight but I would argue it is far more likely its aero & tyre development alongside electromechanical systems to actually put that power down
Yep. My own Hellcat is a great example of a car that has tons of power but can't put it down. People who don't know will think it sounds crazy but from a dig a Hellcat will struggle against a Mustang GT or Camaro SS which are both way down on power. On a roll the Hellcat will blow the doors off of pretty much anything under 100k, but from a dig it can easily get its ass kicked trying to put the power down.
That's why they made the Trackhawk :) I had a Charger Redeye before the Trackhawk and even though the Charger had 90hp more the Trackhawk feels faster day to day.
Plus I can tow my boat, and drive it all year round with winter tires on it
All of the new high HP cars are like this. They're all still basically running the same Tremec that was designed for the Viper in 1998, and the only way to keep them alive is to massage the engine output by deconnecting the throttle pedal from what the engine is doing.
The other side of that was my Street Modified 97 Eagle Talon AWD race car.
It made about 350HP, but it weighed 2700lbs. So 0-60 in 3.2, low 12s quarter, 1.35 sustained lateral G.
Put us on a pro tree, depending on which Hellcat you have, your tires and track prep, and how good a light you cut, I got a chance at beating you to the line - even though you trap 15 MPH higher than me.
Laughs from my stock Model 3 performance I used to have an eagle talon. Really loved that car, but I don’t miss grenadine various bits of the driveline at random times
The exact reason I got a wb 392 and even that gets sketchy sometimes. Can’t imagine a hellcatz My next car is either a M3 comp or a Z06 because they can put the power down and chassis on both are amazing.
Yeah I had 392 I got in 2016 that I had for a while. Even on that thing it had issues putting the power down like you say. Crazy that even on the widebody like yours it still struggles. My Hellcat is a standard body, so I can't speak to how the widebody model is in regard to traction but I'd imagine still not great.
Both of those cars are neat. When I got my Mustang a few years ago (before the Hellcat) I was considering an M2 Comp. M3 was a bit out of my price range. A Z06 would be super sick.
Tire development in the last ten or so years is pretty impressive. In the time I've owned my Mazda, things have ramped up considerably in terms of usable temperature range for tires as well as pinnacle performance of high performance/sport tires for a given price range. If it continues improving at this rate, time attack will be wild the next 5-10 years as more expensive cars depreciate into that arena.
A Lucid is one of very few cars I've driven (and it's a lot) that ever made me audibly go "WOW" at how the chassis handled some complex bits of road. Phenomenal chassis setup and refinement.
It's just shame they weren't able to get that refinement and excellence to the reliability of the overall package. The overall sentiment is that a lot of dumb, annoying shit is very likely to cause you issues.
They can do with their cars what 150 owners do- convince themselves they love the driving experience while sitting in rush hour traffic. Neither segment is using their cars for their supposed purpose.
Mazda managed it with the Miata, and says the next gen will be 100lbs lighter. The GR86 gained only 100lbs in 10 years despite being significantly safer than the first gen cars and having extra “luxuries” (read as: basic expectations like CarPlay). It is entirely possible to stabilize or even reduce weight in applications where it really matters.
It just doesn’t matter to most automakers because most people don’t care, which is fair enough. I don’t care how much my dishwasher weighs.
Yeah, I mean it did come down here and there, BMW had that whole carbon core architecture w/ the previous 7-series & 8-series it was fairly light for its class, clearly nobody gave a fuck cause the new 7-series is a porker
People use the Miata as an argument for the opposite but mazda does that in large part because its a passion project & they want to, not because they are incentivized to do so
No thats what the electromechanical bit is for, albeit most of the case absence of feel is a deliberate choice because your average customer isn't actually a fan of feel
With EPAS there is at least the benefit of being able to reflash your steering in theory, & in practice for a few models (981->GT3, m2->CS map) etc
I have yet to drive a car with EPS which has any semblance of decent steering feel, including the 981 and 982. As far as I can tell, no production car with EPS has steering feel that's worth a damn. Its pretty darn frustrating.
I'm not saying the 981 is good, but the GT3 is good, & you can flash the GT3's steering map to the 981 as it's the same rack
Same thing with BMW, they can do decent steering when they want to, the Z4M40i & previous gen M5CS are quite fun even if the base cars aren't all that great
I mean, its still no Cobra or Morgan but there were plenty of numb hydraulic racks too
I haven't tried the GT3, so I can't directly comment on that. What I can do is offer some illustration of what I'm looking for in terms of steering feel. The self aligning torque generated by a tire is a pretty good proxy for where the tire is operating on its slip angle vs cornering force curve. Good steering feel delivers that signal loud and clear to the driver. With that info, its actually pretty easy to drive the front tires on their limits, but without that info, you are driving fairly blind as to available traction. I really want that info through the steering feel. Ideally paired with tires and suspension which create a pleasant and forgiving slip angle to cornering force curve without a serious stall effect after peak cornering force. That way the car is easy to play with on the limit. I find that to be essential to making a car fun. I also require precise and immediate throttle and brake modulation to play on that limit.
The Cobra and the Morgan both do that beautifully.
Yeah I agree, but sadly BMW has gone on record to basically say customers hate that feel & would rather their cars ignore the road than track it, & simply weight up on demand.
Which sucks but it would be the way the industry is going. The GT3 does attempt to give some of that feel, its not perfectly naturally but I imagine you'd like it a little more than what you've tried thus far, albeit less than say a 997
I had a 996, and put a lot of miles on a 997. The steering feel in those was ok, ish? Certainly not good, but it was at least present although faint. The 991 was pretty awful to my tastes. I hope you can see where I'm coming from and why I consider EPS to be essentially a non-starter vis-a-vis the sorts of cars I enjoy.
F1 is traction limited because of the aero rules. If allowed they could basically build ground effect aircraft which only need the tires for propulsion.
We've seen immense improvement in tire tech over the last decade alone,
F1 is traction limited as they purposely make the tires worse for the spectacle, to encourage pit stops & incentivize some difference in strategy. Likewise with the grooved tires back in the day
Worst examples are probably 2011 when the Pirellis were made to last like 15 laps, & the opposite from Bridgestone in 2010 where they'd just last the entire race
& even if they were give full agency, Pirelli's tires have to withstand racing tracks in wildly different climates w/ wildly different asphalt, Car tires can be far more specific
I'd broaden this to say "usability." Your sports car has a jillion horsepower? It's an absolute track weapon? Cool. Now let's figure out how to make it a daily too. MagneRide or some other cool suspension. Active exhaust, and maybe a hybrid for stealth mode. Can we get better fuel economy out of that incredible power delivery? Can we package things differently to get more usable space?
> or you can stuff some nice active suspension in & improve road manners both for spirited driving & for comfort. & fighting physics is foolish but most people demand do-everything cars
That’s reason why SUV and truck getting more popular. When there are 1000hp SUV or truck like Cybertruck and R1, large horsepower and 0-60 have become pointless because your heavy truck and SUV can have supercar performance now.
> Either you can spend millions going around & shaving weight every which way you can, or you can stuff some nice active suspension in & improve road manners both for spirited driving & for comfort.
The latter is the better approach both for auto makers and buyers. Buyers will notice and appreciate those systems far more than saving the weight of one passenger if you're lucky. So many Taycan and Sapphire reviews say "it doesn't feel like 5000 pounds." Or that's what 5000 pounds feels like now, which is to say impressive.
From the article:
> You could just throw lots of power and batteries at something and make it go very far and very fast, but is that really what people are looking for?"
Yes, that's what people are looking for. The Longbow and Caterham will sell to niche audiences, but the same cars with 800 extra pounds of battery for 70 more miles of range and modcons would sell better. The question is, is the objective to appeal to the most buyers or the most passionate buyers? Longbow are pretty confident there are enough of the latter. I hope for their sake they're right.
20 years ago, carbon fiber was the most exotic of exotic materials. Now you can find it on moderately priced sports cars. Safety regulations won’t go anywhere, but engineering lighter materials can bring the weight down.
That's my thought, as well - if production is spread out broadly enough and manufacturers are competing with one another to bring weight down, the costs will fall in line due to quantities of scale. I'd love to see advanced composites start to advance lightweight vehicle construction - it benefits everyone.
Unrealistic due to increased safety standards. The reason cars have gotten heavier is largely due to regulation, not manufacturer preference. While it is possible to have a light "safe" car, it's usually cost prohibitive.
>Miata
My brother just survived a pretty gnarly t-bone crash in his 2020s Miata.
Like one bad enough that it could have been his funeral, but he just walked away unscratched.
I'm very appreciative to some very smart engineers in Japan.
Fun fact! It hasn't really gotten heavier! The ND generation MX-5, such as your brother's, is the 4th generation MX-5 but the second lightest, losing only to the first generation from the 80s/90s
It's really an incredible feat that Mazda has pulled off. Rumors about the next gen Miata are reporting the lightest weight of any generation (~2230 lb I believe?)
The C-shaped panel that flows from the roof down, around and underneath the door is actually a very rigid and strong structural member, and it forms a major part of the safety rating. There's a picture of just the frame supporting a fully loaded SUV they did as a promotional shoot.
One safety standard the Miata doesn't have to meet is the roof crush standard which helps save weight over fixed-roof cars. Probably not a ton (pun intended) but it's a factor in keeping the Miata light.
To my understanding it does include the RF because it's not a true "fixed-roof" coupe. If I had to guess one of the reasons we've never seen a Miata coupe is because of the extra engineering and crash testing to support a fixed-roof variant. They don't approach it like, say, Porsche with the 718 twins where fixed-roof and roadster are planned from the outset.
Except it doesn't. It's gained weight as well. Granted not by nearlry as much as other brands but still a roughly 10% increase in curb weight since 1990 to present (~2200lbs to 2400lbs).
You also have to consider that the Miata is an exception, not the rule. That car is focused on being 'light weight', it's the main selling point of the car. Selling a heavy Miata would be like selling a Hellcat without a Supercharger, - people wouldn't buy it.
Some brands have forgone their original selling points: Mini Coopers got bigger (and made an SUV), Porsches, and all the name rehashes that make no sense.
You probably want to double check your claim. The NC Miata reached 2400 lbs but if you compare an NA with power steering, AC and airbags to a current generation ND Miata there's less than 100 lbs difference. Definitely not a "10% increase"
The 1989 Miata has a base curb weight of 2182lbs, the newer generation is (as you say) around 2400lbs. That's roughly a 200lb increase which is 10% of 2200lbs.
That's part of my point, everything is standard now for safety. Airbags used to be an optional extra. Every additional safety system adds weight, because the system by nature is an object with weight.
Well the other commentor already said everything really relevant but I'd like to take the time to be a pedantic redditor and point out that your snippy comment about "by nature" is wrong. The system adds mass, not weight. If you're going to be snippy at least be right.
They said N**C**, current gen is the N**D**.
ND miata curb weight varies from 2200 lbs to 2400 lbs, with *the larger engine* in NA being the main culprit for versions that gain 10% weight.
Safety is relative. Tragedy of the commons arms race pursuit of bigger and heavier cars have made roads inherently more unsafe because of the amount of 6-8 ton vehicles carrying single passenger commuters on the road.
If more cars were smaller and lighter, roads would be much safer.
I dunno tho, most small cars are incredibly safe compared to even midsize size cars from 10 years ago while still weighing about a ton and a bit (Suzuki Swift, VW Polo, Peugeot 208). It's definitely possible to make safe cars while being light.
Companies simply don't care enough to as it's cheaper to not
No… cars have gotten heavier and larger because of consumer preference. Safety regulation actually would prefer if everyone drove small and light sedans and hatchbacks lol.
Light and safe sedans and hatchbacks exist and reasonable prices. It’s a problem when safety regulation does *not* apply to large suvs and pickup trucks and are absolutely dangerous to their own drivers and other drivers on the road
A compltetely valid take, I do agree (lord knows my Camaro is a fat pig of a car).
I think the echo-chamber of car forums / reddit / youtube would make one think it's a more pressing issue for manufacturers. It's like manual transmissions: we "all" want it, we "all" beg for it, but the vast majority of consumers (even for sports cars) don't care.
At the very least it seems that 4,000 lbs has become the sort of "upper limit" of weight for sports coupes (sans sports-luxury cars like certain ones from Audi and BMW). 3600-3800lbs seems to be the sweet spot for production cars.
The only way you're seeing that is if cars start shrinking down in size again. A modern compact is comparable in size and wheelbase to a mid-size from the early 2000s. Hell, I've seen an old Mazda Protege like the one I drove in highschool parked next to a Toyota Yaris IA and the Toyota is bigger is some dimensions, and that's a fuckin' sub-compact sedan.
I still have my 2001 Audi s4 and I don’t remember thinking it was a small car when I bought it in 2004. It’s almost always the smallest car in the parking lot when I drive it now.
Yes this will definitely happen in a world where the sedan itself is an endangered species, because consumers vastly prefer "taller, heavier sedan with more expensive tires and worse fuel economy"
Electric motors are boring. Is a hybrid powertrain really the best? I feel like an all electric powertrain would be best from a performance perspective but they use a ICE because customers want the sound then add on the electric motors for cheap horsepower.
Horsepower in EVs doesn't really mean anything, it's just something nice to have. Everyone that I know of that has bought an extremely high hp EV got tired of the acceleration gimmick really quick, and the same thing happened to me.
This is why I embrace small inline-4 supremacy. 1000s and even 600s are nearly unusable on the streets.
The ZX4RR is like a supersport built for the real world. All the fun of a 16000 RPM inline-4 that you can actually wind a gear out on without risking your license or your life lol
I wished it opened up that market segment a bit more, I'd cry for a CBR400RR Babyblade homage
Let's start the race for incredible feats of EV engineering. The Valhalla, AMG One, other ICE/HEV/PHEVs have seemed to show us some truly incredible feats of engineering. Rivian and Lucid have started down that path for EVs, even Tesla, to a point. Now let's make it a real race.
I think the KIA ev6 GT is a pretty interesting bit of engineering. It's insane to me that you can get a nearly 600hp KIA that's also pretty practical, and has acceptable (but not great) range, and functions well as a daily. And honestly I can't stop laughing at the thought of a 600 horse KIA commuter car. It's so stupid, lol. But I can't lie, I kinda want one.
The Ioniq 5 N is even better. EVs make crazy straight line performance super cheap. You can pick up a used Model S that will do 2 seconds 0-60 for under $50k (the Plaid values are holding up surprisingly well). A lot less if you're willing to go with an older P100D which will get you under 2.5 seconds.
I'm waiting for that 5N to get down to like the low 40k or even high 30k range. If that thing had a Honda or Toyota badge on it no one would ever shut up about how great they are.
Improving driving feel & enjoyment with some reasonably priced weight-saving measures. The GR86/BRZ is a great step in that direction. Production on them is on the low side, because Subaru's Gunma plant is making several other vehicles that are more profitable(Forester, Crosstrek, Impreza, WRX, Outback, & Solterra). To build more of the twins, Subaru would have to cut one of the others, but that means leaving money on the table.
If someone else can build a car that's similarly light and engaging, but in higher numbers, that can also help knock the price down a bit. I'd love to see Mazda step up and build a true fixed-roof Miata. That would be a path to more aggressive chassis setups and some additional power as well. Think of the Miata being like the Lotus Elise, and this 'Miata coupe' being like the Lotus Exige(the old 4cyl version). If Mazda played around with the platform more, maybe they'd even have a new rotary car up their sleeve.
Another option? Maybe Ford cuts down the Mustang platform and does a new Capri. Get the weight as close to 3000lbs as possible, and that's still not bad. Give it 4cyls, with the 2.7L EcoBoost as the range-topper. Europe in particular would love it. The Capri was their Mustang equivalent, and the current Mustang is a little too big for them.
I forgot it was happening already with that electric CUV. Just looked it up. Was hoping it could be more sleek, because maybe it could've used a different name like 'Puma.'
The Mustang came over, but it isn't a good fit. On one end, it's too large to work well. I was also surprised to see that the 2.3L EcoBoost isn't available. That would be a natural choice for many, I imagine. They would like the looks of the Mustang, but would be more than happy with the power of the 2.3L. A bit like how the old MK1 Audi TT got a bargain basement 150hp trim after a couple years. It was for people who just loved the look of the TT and didn't care about performance.
All the more reason to do a proper Capri that's the right size. Getting the 2.7L EcoBoost is even a little poetic, given the old 2.8L 'Cologne' V6 used in the old one.
Great, now we can finally use 10% of it legally.
Next phase is peak”” “subscription heated seats.” Also peak pretending a 0 to 60 time matters in traffic.
I would argue 0-60 is far more relevant than top speed or even quarter mile times. Who can enjoy the new corvette or hellcat when you're in felony territory by the end of 3rd gear? Makes 0 sense practically speaking.
oh yeah, don't get me started on that. rushing to every red light even when it's already red, slamming on the brakes. clearly most drivers have never paid for a full new set of brakes. they just trade.
Simple.
Stop focusing on making multi million dollar pieces of unobtanium.
Start focusing on making cool, quirky, affordable enthusiast cars - if you can whack in some form of homologation then you’re onto a winner.
We don’t need Italdesign Zerounos. We need new Delta Integrales.
Now that this absurd forced switch to EV seems to be coming undone, manufacturers can get back to providing fun cars for people to drive and be passionate about.
Yep, why would an enthusiast buy a new car, when he can get a slightly older one, that 10x better for the the same price. An enthusiast is going to fix his own car, so bonuses of a new car will be less.
I mean I would love an "enthusiast" car. But cars are expensive, even "cheap" ones. And I don't have space for the two practical cars I need and another one that is only driven occasionally. I would image the majority of pepe are in that situation.
Unless you have a three car garage and/or are childless, Enthusiast cars are right out.
Yeah, the best option are sports sedans, imo. Although true sports sedans are quite expensive. 4 years ago I settled on a 2018 Mazda 6 Signature. It's been a great, practical car. And it's fairly fun to drive.
Why did you ask what the biggest complaint of the gt86 was if you’re going to just dispute the answer? Lmao
Maybe learn to do your own research and you’ll see everyone and their mom complaining about how slow it is.
I love the GT86, the biggest complaint about the GT86 is the power. I think it has enough power. This was my counterpoint to the original comment, I don't think people would accept low power fun cars the way he's saying because most people are idiots. Thanks for demonstrating.
“Thanks for demonstrating”, as if you’re proving I’m an idiot for answering a question you yourself knew was going to be the answer, LMAO. Absolute nimrod
I owned two brz’s btw, and now own a new one, I didn’t hate the car personally..but yeah you got me!!
Yeah you are an idiot. It's no good contracting yourself and then saying "gotcha". That's ridiculous. You were embarrassed by the car and have bought 3. You don't have an opinion here, you didn't even understand my first comment
On the highway it can get 30mpg for sure. In the city it’s atrocious
I live in Chicago and was getting 19mpg on a good day, it’s rated at 21city.
I installed a flex fuel sensor and tuned it for e85, with that I get 14mpg lmao. I pay $2.50 per gallon though, 93 is $5+
Could we maybe find a happy middle ground between 150ish lbs/ft of torque with a pitiful torque dip in the middle of the powerband and something with 1 bajillion bhp? Something like, I dunno, a 2nd gen 86, which continues to sell without issue? Signed: a dude who’s scheduled to trade his M2 for a GR86 6MT later this week.
US-centric people see the EV adoption as a failure due to changes by the Dump admin. The rest of the world has moved forward and if the US manufacturers don’t move forward with them, they’ll lose global market share. There is plenty of room for enthusiast ICE vehicles globally, though. It’s just gonna be really $$ in taxes in most places.
There’s a problem with this argument though. The filthy rich buy those multi million dollar pieces of unobtanium.
Car enthusiasts, more often than not, want to buy that super fun and quirky car on the used market for $5,000.
I hear you. I still think charging $50k for a golf R is revolting. Renault/Peugeot make few if ANY interesting sporty cars that anyone actually wants. Japanese manufacturers are rare insofar as things like GR Yaris/Corolla, new Z, GR86 etc exist. The Germans, French and Italians are sorely missed
Yeah…? Many brands have reversed commitment to pure EV as the market is very clearly not adopting them anywhere close to the way they were expected to?
I guess my impression was that these unobtanium vehicles are where they tried out more extreme stuff, like replacing some steel parts with carbon fiber. When you have a car that is $1M and with early CF techniques has to cost $1.2M because you added carbon fiber here and there to shave off 150 pounds, you can still sell the car while showing off your latest and greatest tech.
Go ahead and try and do the same things on a base Corvette and offer a $200k option package on a $60k car and you now have trims that you'll have a real hard time selling.
But in 5-10 years, costs of the new tech generally come down and maybe then you can do it as a $10-20k option package on that $60k car and still be able to sell it.
Unfortunately for the average consumer +100k vehicle sales are a continuously growing market segment right now, so it's unlikely they'll shift focus, even if that is a very shortsighted idea.
Who wants 1000 horsepowers when you can't even use half of them during normal driving?
Give me something refined I can hoon and not kill anyone, nor be arrested and charged with reckless operation.
Like a Miata for tall people that seats four rather than two. Or a sleeper wagon à la Audi S4 Avant/RS4. Or maybe a short wheel-base offroader that won't die from shitty mechanicals. Anything that makes me cackle maniacally on my way home from the grocery store with diapers and goldfish crackers please.
I agree 400hp is a pleasant power level, but I don't agree with you on the weight. Somewhere in the 2200-2500lb range it becomes non-viable to have unboosted controls, and that kills feel and tactility. So I'd set the weight cut off a fair bit lower.
I was gonna stealth edit and add a "<" so its <3,000 lb lol but thats my preference, i took these numbers from Matt Farrah from the smoking tire, he would always say that like 10-15 years ago during his reviews, maybe still does, and I have this to be true...
You would have to go really small to make 2,200 lb realistic. The E36 3-series is already 2,900 lb.... the E30 was ~2,500 lb
Style. When all else is equal, the prettiest one sells the best. I'm hoping to see a return to the era of long hoods. Drifting while sitting over the back wheels is the best.
TALLER vehicles, people need to see ABOVE the SUVs in front of them, next will be SUVs with the height of semi trucks, just low enough to fit under bridges, to defeat their air drag and do the quarter mile under 10 seconds to merge safely they will need 5000+ hp.
Now make a bigger EV which I can take to road trips without having to worry about charging stops. I'm looking at a Diesel Passat level EV with a similar range. Thank you very much!
Air is great, but not at a great price 🥲 (screams in peanut)
Sorry, I forgot to mention that at a Passat price.
I think it might take a while to get an equivalent EV, until then I'll wait I guess.
Wow sweet ride! I mean I'm getting a work ride from next week which is electric, and I'm gonna learn that personally I guess. I do wanna travel across Europe as well and sometimes remote.
> A Motor1 analysis of EPA data shows that new cars in the US are roughly 15 percent more powerful than they were a decade ago—with the average output having increased by about 35 horsepower. That number has risen by as much as 26 percent since 2006, with cars adding roughly 55 hp on average.
Not Subaru! Ha! Their vehicles make the SAME power AND got heavier! Take that automotive world!
Bring back the shapes of the later 1900s. Those designs were so sleek and cool. I want a modern engine with old bodies.
Less tech bullcrap. Cars without menus.
>The question is, where do we go from here? For some, the answer is pretty simple: **more power.**
I know I'm not the only one to hear lighting and thunder
We need electric range.
We just rented a hybrid minivan for a road trip—my cars are too small and my wife’s is electric. Was a great trip and I loved the hybrid until we encountered transmission issues at the end. Even waiting on a tow and everything we still spent less downtime than it would have taken to charge an EV for that trip but just a reminder that I’d love for the day we have electric cars that you can take on a road trip but we’re just not there yet.
Get to 60mph/100kph in less than 5. Make that a boundary on the lightness benchmark. It’ll happen soon enough. Ai will help assist in weight savings and ideal crash scenarios, optimized torque and horsepower curves, past 100 not a lot of people will care if it’s as slow as a brz/miata. Center of gravity low and centred, rwd, lsd’s, we have all the pieces of the puzzle, and now we have ai to optimize. I see the 2 cars mentioned here being a very real option very soon
What it is, it's going to be number so that manufacturers can market it and spec sheet warriors can quote it online.
Driving dynamics desperately need an improvement these days, but despite worshipping the Miata and GR86, it still ranks very low on "car enthusiasts" lists of priorities.
No we didn't.
3000Hp in a road car is not enough.
I want a 4000Hp road car with 0-60 in 1s..
Because who wants soul, sound, fun and engagement?
Nah, we want soulless face melting speed, because nobody needs their organs still attached to their bodies.
Computing power is the next step, being able to download more apps and services into your car years after you first bought it and then also integrating it into your phone and other daily uses.
Going to take a while for the car companies to do well, they have a hard time competing with silicon valley for programming types. Especially since they have been able to nail down the white collar manufacturing engineer market for so long, Silicon Valley is all a bit too wild west.
Some small company before long though is going to advertise the computing power of their car as a badge and it will be one the newest way to one-up each other.
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