What are your thoughts on these casting choices for Christopher Nolan's 'The Odyssey'?
Posted by fancygorgonzola@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 1002 comments
BeginningClue10@reddit
OK, so because I hear this opinion here a lot, let me tell you something as a Greek. Nevermind Lupita; NO Zendaya does NOT pass as Greek. I think people are once again quick to portray either mixed race people as whiter than they are or Greeks as more middle eastern than they are just because they are not north-european white but Zendaya looks very much non-Greek. Feels like the only reason she doesn't get backlash is because Lupita obviously exists as a buffer for how mindbogglingly dumb casting her is but otherwise no, Zendaya herself does not look Greek at all.
kodial79@reddit
If, say, I didn't know who Zendaya is and you showed me her picture and you asked me to guess her nationality, gave me yen tries, none of my answers would have been Greek.
soxiwah641@reddit
That goes for every woman in this image. I've never met a naturally blonde Greek. And the first woman also doesn't have the Greek facial structure at all.
Bloubloum@reddit
Anne Hathaway could pass as Greek easily.
There are naturally blonde Greeks, though they are rare.
soxiwah641@reddit
I really don't think so. She looks more Germanic/ North European. Never seen a Greek who has that type of facial structure.
Bloubloum@reddit
As a Greek myself, who has been told multiple times that I look like her, and I look undeniable Greek, I beg to differ.
And she does not look more Germanic/North European. She looks more French, if anything.
everyonelikescookies@reddit
They tell you look like Hathaway? How you doin..?
Bloubloum@reddit
Hehehe. Sorry dear, I'm happily married :)
sissi4hell@reddit
Exactly!
soxiwah641@reddit
Her lineage is German/French/Irish it seems. I've been told I look like many white people too. Doesn't mean that the people I look like are all Greek.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
But it means that they could pass as Greek though… since there are Greeks that look similar to them (aka you) You somehow don’t use the same logic when applied to Zendaya though🤔 She also doesn’t have any Greek lineage at all yet there you see it as possible for her to be Greek.
Bloubloum@reddit
I didn't say that she is Greek. I said that she could pass.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
Lmao but Zendaya does 😂
soxiwah641@reddit
I've seen more Roma/Greeks that look like zendaya in Greece than people that look like Anne Hathaway. If you ignore tourists. I'm just being honest from what I've seen in the streets of Athens.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
So her lineage is Germanic. Zendaya also doesn’t have Greek lineage. Also, in Ancient Greece there were no Roma people living there? Like that argument doesn’t make any sense. And even then I have seen more Greek women that look more similar to Anne Hathaway than to Zendaya. I think you just have some type of bias that is unrealistic to reality
soxiwah641@reddit
Maybe we just live in a different part of Greece. My neighbourhood has very few pale white/blonde people
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
Where from Greece are you from if you don’t mind sharing?
soxiwah641@reddit
Athens. West provinces.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
Given the fact that it has a large population of Roma Greeks and has many people with ancestry from Cyclades, Dodecanese and Crete, it’s not a big surprise that you have a different view than me
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Wait, what? Half of my family is from Cyprus, and I'm with blonde cousins all around. Not like it's the norm, but it's not something 'oh so rare' either.
atzitzi@reddit
Young Klelia Andriolatou
soxiwah641@reddit
You can see her hair as she got older being more towards brown and she has colored over it lol. The article even says that.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
This is literally the case with 90% of all European blonde women
atzitzi@reddit
Sorry to break it to you but Charlize Theron and many blond people around the world were lighter blond as children and went darker blond as adults. That doesn't make them non blonds. blond in both images
glucose_rose13@reddit
Well I have met many greeks that are light haired, my middleschool friend Xrisi included 🤷
kodial79@reddit
Rare but they exist. It's ok to have blonde Greeks in Greek mythology since some of them have been described as being that, Achilles notably. But hair and skin color isn't the only that matters. They still have to have that Mediterranean look too and Theron doesn't have it in the slightest.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
I agree, as a Greek with natural dirty blonde hair, who has been described as not looking Greek just because of that, it pains me that people only see phenotype. My facial features are still very much Greek but people really can’t see past hair, eye and skin color lmao. Blonde also doesn’t mean Anglo Saxon and our „ξανθός“ / „xanthos“ doesn’t correlate to „blonde“. It means more copper haired or honey blonde
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
False. And there are naturally blonde Greeks, I know several
atzitzi@reddit
Athena This is hiw Greeks imagined her to be.
SaintNutella@reddit
Is Athena herself supposed to be ethnically/racially Greek?
BeginningClue10@reddit
Please tell me you're trolling
SaintNutella@reddit
Answer the question. She's a shapeshifter who appears in various forms. Even Hellenists don't throw fits about what Athena ought to look like because, per the mythology itself, she doesn't have a strict canon appearance.
In the story of Odyssey she has appeared as a girl, an old man, and a literal bird. Yet people are complaining that Zendaya (beyond just her race) is too young to play the part.
Athena's true form is beyond human perception. Her "human" forms are a reflection of how humans see her unless she has a form that is explicitly explained.
The talks about racial accuracy aren't really about consistent racial accuracy cause almost none of the cast looks Greek or depicted in the way that the Acient Greeks have depicted some of these figures. The outrage is not actually about mythological accuracy, lol
BeginningClue10@reddit
So you are trolling or you are retarded cause ain't no way. A Greek goddess in the Greek mythology is somehow not Greek because she can shapeshift... which all the gods do? This is such a redditor opinion it's not funny.
SaintNutella@reddit
Say you aren't familiar with Greek mythology without saying it. It's always the empty pots that make the most noise LOL
BeginningClue10@reddit
Oh I am familiar alright, it's just you that dodges the question about how her shapeshifting makes her non-ethnically Greek or something. it sure is the empty pots that make the noise, it's just that this empty pot is calling the kettle black about who's making the most noise.
kodial79@reddit
There are plenty of statues and vase painting of Athena. She looks very Greek in those. In the homeric epics, the Iliad and Odyssey both, it's true that the gods tend to appear in the guise of other mortals and sometimes animals, like Athena did appear as an eagle in the Odyssey iirc, or was it a crow? Anyway... that's mostly just the homeric epics though, in almost all across the Greek mythology corpus, there are only a few instances of the gods not appearing as themselves. You can tell this because, like in the Iliad, Diomedes needs Athena's help to spot what other gods were in the battlefield, otherwise he wouldn't know them but across almost all other myths, this plot device is absent and the mortals seem to recognize a god when they see one, so they do seem to have a default appearance.
And these so called "Hellenists" can shut up, we don't care what those larping foreigners think.
Raichev7@reddit
Honestly after Marvel cast an African American to play Heimdall I can't be surprised by anything.
For those of you who don't know Scandinavians are very white and their gods are described this way as well, but Heimdall in particular is described as the whitest of them all - "his skin gleaming white and shining"
When you are taking inspiration from somewhere and characters are described a certain way you should try to cast actors who have at least some resemblance to the characters' description.
gataki96@reddit
Marvelslop is one thing but one would expect better from Nolan. That's certainly a disappointment that he went that way.
RcusGaming@reddit
People are complaining about Zendaya but she looks way more Greek than Matt Damon does lmfao. I'm more pissed about his casting and Tom Holland's. These guys look so absurdly British.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
I disagree, Matt Damon is more passable as a Greek than she is (not that he looks Greek either but I would believe it more)
RcusGaming@reddit
I'm sorry, but Odysseus who was just out adventuring for the last 10 years would be much darker than Matt Damon. While Zendaya is darker than I'd expect, her skin tone is still closer to what an Ancient Greek person might be. I read your argument below, and I understand you're Greek, but you also have to understand that Greeks 4000 years ago would look different than Greeks now. (Although, even disregarding that, I have met Greeks with skin tones closer to Zendaya than I have Greeks with the skin tone/face shape of Matt Damon).
Ultimately, the problem lies with their faces. Neither have Greek features, but Matt Damon specifically has very British features. Without looking it up, I'd be willing to wager that he has mostly British/Scandinavian heritage, and probably more specifically, Scottish or Irish. It's a very distinctive look, and once you've met people from that area, it can be pretty obvious.
BeginningClue10@reddit
You bring up facial features bro but it doesn't help your case at all in cherry-picking. Zendaya even in that sense has very NON Greek facial features, you can see the African heritage in her face. And yes you can go argue about Matt Damon not being like Greeks but guess what... Africans are a whole different race altogether than Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. So between the two, you'd be disappointed to find out who looks closer to a Greek (and I've seen fellow Greeks whose families are Greek with MORE foreign looks than Matt Damon, like I've seen full-on gingers).
kajdelas@reddit
Problem is that he really does not look Greek because he’s super pale, Zendaya could pass as mixed Greek. Damon looks really from the North Europe
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
No offense. But you are Brazilian and have obviously absolutely know idea about how us greeks look like. My family is paler than he is. Lmao we have even people with reddish hair. Not all Greeks are tan, she would still stand out in Greece, people would think that she is pretty dark but what mostly stands out is the face. There are many Greek people with the same skin tone as Matt Damon. Please don’t tell us Greeks what we are supposed to look like
kajdelas@reddit
No taken, I’ve been Greece few times and spent my fair share of time in Great Britain. Damon does not look Greek, tanned Damon still does not look Greek. He could be born in Greece and not have traditional Greeks features. Charlize Theron couldn’t be far from a Mediterranean look and again could be born in a Mediterranean country but looks wise it doesn’t look like
Brazil has the biggest population of Japanese people outside of Japan, a Japanese person could easily be a Brazilian character but it’s reflective of the population ?probably not.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
A Greek seeing a fellow blonde Greek isn’t surprised and doesn’t think: „Oh, a blonde Greek, how unusual“ We have too many people that look like that to be surprised about it, it’s mostly foreigners with a weirdly distorted view about our appearance that react that way.
kajdelas@reddit
I don’t know if didn’t understand or it’s just pretending. No one is surprised to see a Japanese in Brazil and obviously no one is surprised seem a naturally blond Greek, but if you go a village and the majority of people be Blonde it will be a surprise for a Greek person, simple because it’s not that common in Greece like seeing a village of tanned dark haired people in Norway. This doesn’t mean that blondes Greeks and dark Norwegians are an aberration, they are just statistically less common.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
Yes but it is common for Greeks to not look the exact same though? Also Brazilians aren’t an ethnicity, you are all completely mixed and your nation is very recent and made up of people from all over the world. It isn’t the same for Greece, so you making a comparison here makes absolutely no sense. In the Iliad, some characters are described as having light hair, some as dark haired, light and or dark eyed. Even hair structure is described. I didn’t say everyone is supposed to be blonde in the movie anyways. But it is totally fine if a proportion is made up of blonde people. And no, they don’t have to be from northern or Western Europe because of their facial features, not the skin and hair color 🙄
kajdelas@reddit
You are right 🫡🏳️
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
I literally said he doesn’t look Greek though? I said he is more passable as a Greek than Zendaya and said he doesn’t look Greek himself? Like what are you even trying to say when you don’t even read my comment? Also why do you make this about skin but proceed to leave it out after I pointed out that pale Greeks exist? Your initial comment said he was too pale to be Greek which isn’t true. And sorry, only seeing some Greeks in Britain and having been to Greece for a holiday, I suppose it was probably in the tourist destination where many non Greeks live anyway, like Athens or the islands, you think you know how we all look like? We are 10 million people, why is the concept of different phenotypes so difficult to grasp for people, especially from countries that are extremely diverse
kajdelas@reddit
You are right. I should not guess phenotypes like that. Non sarcastic sorry, people do that with me all the time, I’m probably projecting
atzitzi@reddit
Not true. You can find Greeks looking like Matt Damon but not like Zendaya. It is not just the complexion. Yiannis Stankoglou Konstantin Markoulakis
neefhuts@reddit
Zendaya is not even about race, she is just such a bad cast for the goddess of wisdom
sissi4hell@reddit
Actually, she is very articulated and smart too.
neefhuts@reddit
Wisdom is not the same as intellect. Zendaya is not the embodiment of wisdom and tact, she is not mature enough for that
CroatInAKilt@reddit
You don't understand bro, there are only 5 actors in Hollywood, we can't possibly cast someone new. It was either Zendaya or Rachel Zegler
Plastic_Dog9972@reddit
this is very funny because yes Greeks have no idea how Greeks look
OkHoneydew1599@reddit
Thank you enlightened Westerner, who has either never been to Greece or has only been in super touristic areas where many workers are foreigners and close to no Greeks are there, your opinion on how we look has been noted
Plastic_Dog9972@reddit
thank u too presumptious idiot that has no idea who i am or where i am from
casual_philosopher02@reddit
not only she does not look Greek at all, she also looks like a kid. Goddess of wisdom looking like a kid instead of a mature woman may be the worst part of her being casted
losdreamer50@reddit
Who the fuck cares
Constantilly@reddit
But... she has curly hair, isn't that enough?? /s
ZedGenius@reddit
In a room with an elephant and a cat, the elephant is the one that gets addressed first. Even if the cat is not supposed to be there either
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
Omg yes thank you! Idk what this one commenter is talking about.
backdroper@reddit
I hope one day, Nolan, will create a movie for Shaka Zulu, and then main character will a guy from Sweden or Japan or from India. How this sounds?
WeirdWireNews@reddit
Sounds corny.
Shayk47@reddit
big difference between history and mythology.
smolgoalboy@reddit
The Trojan War was real mate.
Involves some real characters, like Agamemnon and Menelaus. Just because some of the characters are mythologized, doesn’t automatically mean they get to be any race we want.
They’re not Santa Clause.
Shayk47@reddit
It’s unlikely that a war that supposedly took place 700 years before it was first documented in the Illiad (I.e. the source material for the Nolan movie) is anywhere close to reality. So yes, the Trojan war as told in the Iliad is probably as real as Santa Claus or a Shakespearean play.
Also people need to remember this is entertainment, not a documentary. As long as it entertains, why does it matter if Agamemnon is Jewish or Athena is half black? The whole point of acting is being someone else.
travelingsket@reddit
Zendaya is African now? And the others? Oh because they're White you have nothing to say? They're not Greek either. Clown.
JYanezez@reddit
Chilean should play Shaka Zulu, called it
Salty_Major5340@reddit
Was Shaka Zulu fictional?
DebtCollectorForMami@reddit
I’m trying to see Tom hardy as Martin Luther king
Mundane_Dress_6305@reddit
Retard is obsessed with MLK for some reason 😂
JaniZani@reddit
I get your point but it’s a bad comparison. Cause one is a myth and the other is not.
WeirdWireNews@reddit
I just came back from a week in Athens and the only people who look like the Greeks I saw are Bernthal and Hathaway. The rest…. No where near. Especially Damon.
Malun19@reddit
Helen of Troy ☠️☠️☠️
Royal_Gap5154@reddit
It has zendaya so it is shit
Individual_Formal130@reddit
Did not like her in dune at all. Only thing I've seen of her and thought her acting was just bad.
Individual_Formal130@reddit
The only one who sort of can be cast is Anne Hathaway.
Individual_Formal130@reddit
You guys gotta remember this isn't so much as a slight against Greeks but notion that any European or middle eastern movie will have too cast blacks as prominent figures in that society. Every 18th century British series features blacks in walks of life when it wasn't really the case.
These leftwing types who go into filmmaking sort of hate their own people they don't hate Greeks but won't cast Greek actors because it's America and they have a weird fixation on anything deemed exotic, by their standards.
Tiny-Mulberry-2114@reddit
Zendaya as Athena can pass but Helen of Troy is just too much. It's like putting Jason Statham to play Malcolm
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
None of these people are Greeks, if they aren't casting Greek actors why does it matter what race the actor is?
RasyonelRumi@reddit
From Aristotle’s point of view, tragedy and drama are forms of mimesis, the imitation of actions, life, and human experiences. When actors portray gods or other characters, they do not undergo any metaphysical transformation, they remain human. What they do is internalize the motives, emotions, and behaviors of the characters to convey the story convincingly. The essence of drama lies in the representation of action and the evocation of pity and fear in the audience, not in the literal identity of the actor. Therefore, it is not necessary for actors to share the cultural or ethnic background of the characters they portray, what matters is the faithful imitation of action. Whether we like it or not, there are certain legacies of humanity, and The Iliad is one of them. As humanity evolves toward a more universal culture, such works become part of our shared heritage. I understand the criticism regarding Black actors and actresses in these roles, but my point is simply that, from the perspective of artistic expression, it’s a matter of interpretation rather than literal authenticity.
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
Are Indians forbidden from making a movie about the Iliad? Should Bollywood hire all white actors for their movie?
US has a lot of black people, it's not surprising black people are in US movies.
atzitzi@reddit
So you mean they would now make a movie about native Americans and cast Brad Pitt , Lupita Nyongo, and Charlize Theron as native Americans, because they are random US actors?
Individual_Formal130@reddit
This is where accurate representation will be adhered too. Even if the native actors looks bit white or maybe too much there's a certain stereotype on how natives look they even had an Italian guy play a native and no one thought otherwise.
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
But that's exactly what happened for 100 years, every US movie about cowboys and indians used to cast white people for all the native american roles, and now they have to make up for it to prove they are no longer that racist.
atzitzi@reddit
Yes, this is why I'm speaking to you about now and not what was happening in the past. Because we know better. So, would it be possible now to make a hollywood movie and cast not native Americans for parts of native Americans? I think not.
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
Yes because you are misrepresenting the problem, it wasn't the natives who genocided and subjugated the white population, white americans made movies about native americans and black people for decades and the problem was never about the normal roles where white people played a real character. The problem was always the racist caricatures that were displayed in those movies, and the fact that all those movies were spreading racist stereotypes and genocide/apartheid justifications.
When you make such racist movies for decades, and then for decades just stop showing almost any black/native indian characters, of course you have to make up for it. This is not ancient history, this was a huge problem up until the early 00s, and it's crazy to suggest that hollywood doesn't still have a major problem with racism.
The US is in a state of cultural civil war because they have all these remnants of racism inherent in their system, and you have no idea what the problem is, you don't even notice this cultural war going on even though you are actively taking a side. It is normal for an european person to not know and notice these things in a foreign country, what isn't normal is being so invested, the problem for the european person shouldn't be that they are putting black people in the movies, the problem is that these movies suck major ass.
The US is just not producing any more good movies, just like they are not producing any more good politicians, they are a country in cultural turmoil, and the logical thing is to just stop watching their shitty movies. Don't get invested in their cultural war, don't import their racist cultural patterns, their movies will not get better if the whites win this war, that time is gone, they have been on a downward trend for 30 years now.
Serious_Sense_6097@reddit
No they shouldn't but in my opinion since this is a Nolan film people from all over the globe will watch it and sadly a lot of them will think this is how the odyssey was because they dont watch documentaries. That's why I think it should be more historically accurate.
Direct-Antelope-9583@reddit
Nolan is under no obligation to educate. He is there to entertain.
If you want to educate, go ahead. But no need to put weird extra requirements on a movie just because it used an ancient text as a foundation.
DonPanthera@reddit
It’s not really the same issue. I doubt many people would object to an Indian, Chinese, or African film industry making its own version of the Iliad for a domestic audience. That’s a different context.
Here we’re talking about Hollywood, which produces films for a global audience and often presents them as broadly representative or historically grounded. For me, the issue is internal consistency. If a story is set in a time and place where the population was relatively homogeneous, the casting should reflect that. Unless the film clearly establishes a different internal logic. Otherwise, it can feel disconnected from basic biological and historical expectations.
To illustrate, imagine a scene where a pregnant black woman and her Asian partner have a white baby. If race is treated as irrelevant, then that lack of consistency should apply everywhere. That would actually be fine by me. Sure it doesn't follow biological logic but also renders race irrelevant to the story.
PanicDry@reddit
We don't experct Americans to understand.
Over-Percentage-1929@reddit
It's around 10%, as much as Christians in Egypt and less than half of the whites in SA during Apartheid.
Any of these cases wouldn't be considered "lots" by any stretch of imagination, though.
RasyonelRumi@reddit
I don’t disagree with this.
GregK1985@reddit
Damn Komsu, spot on from a Turkish brother! Love from Greece!!!
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Or a white actor to play the Black Panther.I said this to Harry Potter for professor Snape and they called me a racist.
losdreamer50@reddit
Black panther was made to be black, it's the whole point of the character. Snape could be anything; black, white, asian, a woman and nothing would change.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
They already chose him to be white. It has no sense all the crew to look like the old and Snape is something else.Creae a different character with other name and make him whether you like.
losdreamer50@reddit
They didn't choose anything, one interpretation made him white. Another is free to make him what they want. It's not like his character is tied to his whiteness; he is not a member of the KKK, a white historical figure or a nazi. He is a wizard living in a magical school. And I'm saying this as someone who reads the books once every few years. The only thing that doesn't match the books is that the actor is way more attractive than book Snape which is kinda meh but what can you do?
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Yes I know.Then why they didn't choose a black actor to play Harry Potter?If they choose a black actor to play Snape and after choose a white I would said the name. Its like to put a white actor to play Blade or something similar.
losdreamer50@reddit
Why would Harry's race matter as well? Harry has been portrayed as British Indian in a lot of fan art so they could have chosen that. But they didn't. Maybe they didn't want the backlash from people who take race way too seriously. Who knows?
Anyway, so the first interpretation you see matters very much for you. That's ok. It's only not ok when it comes from thinly veiled racism, which is true for most of this sub.
It's sad though; Harry Potter will probably become a classic through the ages and given thousands of interpretations. Who knows how the latest one will look in 100 years? Think of how stubborn it is to dismiss the second interpretation based on the race of a single actor.
Individual_Formal130@reddit
If Indians made a Harry Potter with Indian actors no problems but the idea each group has be shoe horned into established characters is pointless..
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Why it's all about racist stuff. Its simple. They choose Harry Potter and all actors similar with the old ones. (Old Harry Potter actor grew up and some deceased)ok?Replace Snape and introduce another character with different name and make him what race colour you name it.Snape on series was white so I personally would like to see something similar. Its not about color or race. Only the appearance of the character.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Whatever happened to acting?
BadBasik@reddit
I tried acting black once, it didn't go well😔
But RDJ pulled it off!!!
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
RDJ was satirising when actors take method acting too far
reallybi@reddit
Snape was explicitly white though.
losdreamer50@reddit
Even if he was mentioned as pale in the books, the point still stands. His race or gender is irrelevant to the character. It doesn't change anything about his personality. He is also british and a wizard so he is not even affected by American social wars shit.
They did drop the ball making him quite handsome though. He is supposed to be ugly and with bad hygiene.
GodsDick31@reddit
This is not true at all. He loves a woman that frienzoned him late in to his life. This happens to man much more than woman. He gets bullied very physically by other man . This happens mostly to man not woman. He is a silent weird little nerd. Much more man are weird silent little nerds at that age than woman. All his most profound experiences and characteristics are male because he is a male. Saying it could be a woman and it would have not change anything is so profoundly wrong. If you can make snape a woman than you can make dumbledore a 14 year old and it's all the same.
Blackness on the other hand yes does not change anything. But I grew up with those books and I am attached to the characters as ther are written and making him black kills the emersion immensely. For example I am watching the one piece anime and i guess the green hair chick supposed to be white. I did not care the girl is black. Because i did not even watch the anime and i am loving the show and the character. But an anime watcher might lose immersion becuase thats how they get attached to the character. Question is how much immersion are you willing to lose just to have a token black character. Which is actually much more racist to black people. Like they have to be cast at white role as one ofs. Because why they don't have enough characters?
Think before you talk
losdreamer50@reddit
I'm also a huge fan of the books and it doesn't matter to me that much. Doesn't break my immersion. I'm an artist myself and am open to alternative interpretations of things I love.
Your ' think before you talk ' comment is stupid and has destroyed any desire i might have had to engage with you beyond this last message. Have a nice life
reallybi@reddit
He is a bully to kids, a wizarding version of a nazi, was specifically sigled out to be bullied by the Marauders, and Harry has a bad feeling about him from day one than thinks he is a thief. Of all the characters they could have race swapped they picked this guy.
And don't get me wrong. I DON'T believe they want the story to have racist undertones, quite the opposite in fact. But after almost a decade of woke movies preaching at the audience it will be almost impossible for the normal people in the audience to simply go with the flow with the race swapp. This ain't Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury any more.
losdreamer50@reddit
Exactly, he is a terrible person, the wrong guy to cast as black if you have some 'black people are awesome' agenda... All the undertones is just Americans being weird. He is just a guy who happens to be black in this timeline. So what?
Btw, sorry but I just can't take you seriously after using the word 'woke'. Only American alt-right shitheads use that word filled with hate... My faith in humanity dies whenever I see it being used.
reallybi@reddit
I use it because it's short hand for political correctness and DEI. And people know what I mean when I use it. But I hear you. I don't say 'woke' aloud anyway and even in writing it has ironic undertones.
kajdelas@reddit
But is not essential to the character and also there is a white black panther in the comics
nineskullcrocodile_@reddit
except in the books its clearly stated that he is pale so that makes your comment retarded.
Direct-Antelope-9583@reddit
Woosh 😂 missing the point impressively.
losdreamer50@reddit
You fucking idiot. What does his race bring to the character? NOTHING. It doesn't cahnge a fucking thing. Also reported for using a hate word, good luck getting banned
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
r/AskBalkans does not allow hate
losdreamer50@reddit
Excellent. I suggest he is banned for using the r word.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Zendaya is terrible casting, but not because of skin color but because she looks like a kid not like a women Athena would be.
Angeronus@reddit
I totally agree. Athena is the Godess of Wisdom in Greek mythology. She should have been played by a more mature woman. Zendaya looks like a girl.
Individual_Formal130@reddit
That's why she was cast as a black woman..
other-work-account@reddit
We need to normalize women looking like women, not little girls. My 2 cents, something along the lines of Christina Hendricks or Bryce Dallas Howard or similar.
evilbabaroga_@reddit
lol no, tits too big to be taken seriously. they will do a fine job as aphrodite tho.
athena imo needs to look high class and cunning, sharp features and not too curvy build.
other-work-account@reddit
I can agree with that.
_InnerCityLife_@reddit
Bro what do you mean, Zendaya is a grown ass woman, she is 29yo. Goddess Athena is presented in Greek mythology as a young woman, her beauty specifically being charactised as the beauty of "unspoiled youth"
Just be honest and tell everyone that women actors should be cast to your particular female beauty standards and you got the hots for curvy redheads, it would sound less weird.
Onetwodash@reddit
She may be 29 but she looks late teens/early 20s. You could just swap Athena and Circe for instant improvement. Just very different archetypes.
other-work-account@reddit
\^ This
sxg3434@reddit
My sister looks older than her and she is 19
SansBouillie@reddit
Hmm I wonder why the American elite in Hollywood prefers little girls
morknox@reddit
Maybe they have watched to much anime?
kajdelas@reddit
You have a type my friend
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
Athena was not a mature woman. That is incorrect.
Angeronus@reddit
When i said "mature", i didn't mean 55+. Zendaya looks like a teenager or someone in her early 20s (even though she is 30). While that can be nice for a role as a highschool student/college student or generally in real life, it is not so fitting if you want to play the Godess of Wisdom. If i am not mistaken, Athena was mostly depicted as a young, fully developed woman, but never as "too young".
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
Yeah a young full developed woman, maybe 19 or 20 or early twenties at most.
Mature implies someone in middle age.
Angeronus@reddit
May i ask about your age? I find that it is usually very young people who think that 19 or 20 is not considered "too young". It is.
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
I am 30 years old.
Athena is depicted that way. I am talking fact here dude.
She would not be depicted as a grown woman in her 30s. In Ancient Greece that would be a matron.
Girls in their late teens then were considered in their peak.
Athena was depicted as a young woman. She was literally described as the Parthenos, or virgin.
She is a young woman at the very beginning of adulthood. She is not a mature woman in middle age or in her 30s.
Like jesus christ man, just google it.
Calling her a grown woman would be putting in the same league as Hera or Demeter. She is nothing like those godessess.
She is closer in nature to Artemis who is similarly depicted as a young woman.
Angeronus@reddit
Virginity, especially in mythology, is also used to describe purity, not necessarily to signify how young someone is. I also want to point out that when i said "mature" or "older" in another comment, i meant that as a comparison to Zendaya's looks. I did not mean a middle aged woman. If i am not mistaken, Athena was also one of the oldest children of Zeus. In general, i do believe that it is not a stretch to think that Athena could have been 30.
liquidflows21@reddit
You have surely seen many statues of Athena around Greece, what makes you think that Zendaya is not mature enough, what mature even mean in that context
Fun_Entertainer4457@reddit
Plus aside the fact she looks like a kid in every role she acted she behaved like a classic GenZ.
Angeronus@reddit
Older. She should have been older. Zendaya looks like a kid. I don’t understand why you had to make a follow up question, i think i was clear enough the first time. And yes, i have obviously seen statues of Athena.
BadBasik@reddit
My thoughts exactly, I have always considered her to be a mature, wise, 35+ woman. Zendaya looks like a teenager. I would have gone with someone even older, like Kate Beckinsale.
AmarieLuthien@reddit
This was my thought. I would have switched them
cesam1ne@reddit
Eh? How are you okay with the black Greece princess?!
ToxicRocketry@reddit
Zendaya is terrible casting BOTH because she looks like a kid and because of her skin color.
GodsDick31@reddit
I mean yes. Circe shouldn't be so much older than her Athena
TiredPandastic@reddit
She's also a very boring actress.
mishkatormoz@reddit
Yep, it's not too hard to imagine a black Athena, it's just Zendaya with her "annoyed genZ look" who is a miss.
Puzzleheaded-Ebb-403@reddit
I don't watch a ton of movies and have only seen her in Dune - she was terrible. The worst performance by far. Is she better in other roles?
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
I kinda like her for Spider-Man, it pairs well with Tom Holland especially with the lasted standards of teenagers, she's not a bad actress. But I believe she is overused and starting to burnout. Hollywood is pushing her hard for some reason even were she doesn't fit properly.
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
It's because she has a huge social media following. When you cast actors with big social media that equals free marketing for the movie.
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
Athena was a youthful goddess though. She was a virgin and definitely thought of primarily as a young woman or teenager.
Direct-Antelope-9583@reddit
Athena was a goddess, and was not portrayed as a middle aged woman in ancient Greece...
Zendaya's age is not an issue.
NoBetterIdeaToday@reddit
She would have worked as Artemis.
Drevstarn@reddit
But but she can look angry and opinionated clearly a goddess of wisdom
Halker93@reddit
It would be better if Zendaya and Lupita switched tbh
Roufianos255@reddit
Zandaya can pass as Greek? Not sure if I'm missing a clever troll.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Athena doesn't necessarily need to look like a Bronze Age Greek.
kodial79@reddit
Athena namesake and matron goddess of Athens, the cradle of the ancient Greek civilization, doesn't necessarily have to look Greek?
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Yes? Athena is a goddess, so why not?
Not like it's somehow a 'Mycenaean Greek' invention either, but it's a proto-Indo-European goddess figure that got mashed up with neolithic Levantine, Semitic, and Sumerian deity figures, alongside with theories that involves links to Ancient Egypt . She can look like anything from a vast region.
kodial79@reddit
Only in theory, some foreign goddesses have been equated to Athena. But Athena is still Athena even if the theory is true. You take want a semitic goddess in your dumb Hollywood slop, go do Athirat and leave us the hell alone. Athena is ours and only ours.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Athena certainly took a lot from the Levantine, Mésopotamian, and Semitic deities though, and it's certainly of a proto-Indo-European figure. There are no single goddesses in Ancient Greece anyway, but they're local variants and variants that are for different ends.
Mate, there are no clear cut 'Semitic' or 'Mycenaean' deities for most of the time. Athena wasn't even clear-cut Mycenaean but it existed among the non-IE Minoans even.
You're gravely misunderstanding the Bronze Age and the antiquity in general...
There are also hardly 'this ethnicity deity figures' if you're imagining a world where they're absolutely 'real'.
A goddess isn't somehow 'ethnic xyz'. Welcome to the reality. If you care to even open an introductory book regarding the archaeology or art history, you'd leave those nonsense behind in no time.
kodial79@reddit
There's no Athena but Athena.
She may have evolved out of Athirat or Ishtar or whoever, don't know/don't care - but it doesn't matter. Athirat is Athirat, Ishtar is Ishtar and Athena is Athena.
It's no excuse to make a Greek goddess not look Greek at all just because some foreign cult may have influenced ancient Greeks.
When you adapt Athena, you adapt Athena not whatever Semitic goddess may have been equated to her. And that's that.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
And there's not even a single Athena, but multiple ones, and it's not just a deity evolving from one or another, but it's about it being a continuum from a proto-Indo-European goddess figure with influences from all over the cultures that had access to the Mediterranean. Thus, it can be anything from the said amalgam.
That's aside, again, are you seriously arguing that a goddess figure has to look like a straightforward ethnic Mycenaean of a typical kind? I mean, really?
kodial79@reddit
Oh go eat your pie! When we're talking about Greek mythology, we're talking about Greek mythology not any shit pies!
There's only one Athena, just because there are some fringe myths about a different origin, doesn't mean there are two of them. There's only one and she only belongs to Greece.
You have plenty of descriptions of her in text, vases and statues to tell you how ancient Greeks thought she looked like and their opinion is the only one that matters.
But let's not kid ourselves that's not why Nolan cast that hack Zendaya whose ugliness is surpassed only by her inability to act. He cast her only because he is a racist piece of shit. Besides I doubt he knows anything about mythology to know about comparative myths!
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
What's even a shit pie? Lol.
Funnily, I was eating spanakopita but surely, are you buying me one?
Archeology begs to differ, sorry about that.
That's a certain perspective indeed. Would you like to depict Bronze Age heroes as then contemporary Greeks as well, because they were depicted as such in an anachronistic sense?
Not necessarily, no. Especially if we're talking about deities and imagining them as real.
I could have agreed with you, sans the 'as they've been imagined' portion as Ancient Greek artefacts are full of imaginations of then centuries old incidents as if they were their contemporaries, but I cannot care less when it's about a god figure and if that looks passable in the overall Mediterranean region.
kodial79@reddit
pie as in Proto Indo European. A mere theory and nothing more than that.
A Greek mythology movie is not the place to entertain pie possibilities. Greek mythology is about the stories of the Greek people, not a broader picture of how it may connect to foreign cultures, that's comparative mythology.
You want to know if Athena has any foreign connections? Go read a book about comparative mythology. But in Greek mythology, the exclusive perspective of the Greeks, Athena is Greek and only Greek.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
If you'd be dismissing the PIE continuum, then you'd be instead opting out for adaption of a Near Eastern or an Egyptian deity, which is less likely but eh.
That's not about a possibility. That's about if a deity can look like anything from the wider Mediterranean world of the ancient times - and it certainly can, if we're saying that the said deity is real.
Ancient Greek mythology isn't about Greek people only but also deities. Unless you're claiming that deities are ethnic Mycenaeans for some reason, that's an irrelevant point.
It's really absurd to claim that any god from a pantheon was of a certain ethnic make-up for some reason. You're missing what gods are at this pint.
kodial79@reddit
Dude, seriously, you're pissing me off. We're talking about Greek mythology. The Odyssey is a Greek myth. Athena is a Greek goddess. Greek, only Greek, nothing else but Greek.
The rest of what you're telling me is crap.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
It's really baffling that someone seriously thinks that a goddess can be of an ethnicity if she was real. Then, I do blame the Balkan type of education, alongside with the personal failures.
kodial79@reddit
Your understanding of mythology seems to be as bad as your Greek. You don't seem to be able to understand how the myths of a group of people belong to these people and I am done trying to explain it to you.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Mate, I'm half-Cypriot and one of my undergrads was archaeology. So, sorry to break it to you, but it's you that failing to understand anything at all. Don't worry though, one of my primary academic field was pol science, and it's no mystery for anyone who passed the third grade to know about how silly people may be after ascribing to nationalist myths in a vulgar sense. Congrats regarding your arrogance stemming from your ignorance though.
kodial79@reddit
Are you being purposefully obtuse? You don't seem to be able to comprehend that despite how each culture influenced one another, each one owned their myths. That Athena may have been influenced by foreign goddesses but that as Athena she is Greek. It's a simple concept but it completely flies over your head which leaves me with no other choice than to call you an idiot.
Show a foreign culture that worshipped a goddess called Athena before the Greeks. There's not any. Because Athena is a Greek goddess.
ValuableBenefit8654@reddit
Is this a common sentiment in Greece? And what do you mean by this?
HantoKawamura@reddit
She can pass as Andromeda only, daughter of Ethiopian king from the myth of Perseus. But it has nothing in common with the Odyssey.
Kitsooos@reddit
Even Zendaya is streching it honestly. But whatever. Not a deal-breaker. Helen is way past the line.
RealAlphaKaren@reddit
she should have been darker, to further state the point you dont give a fuck
i mean, to me, this is insulting to black ppl, its tokenization all over again, "look, we have one", disgusting
SaintNutella@reddit
Don't the Greek Gods appear in any form they please? I don't think it's problematic for Athena to appear in a form that looks like Zendaya, to be completely honest.
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
I think it's more about a manufactured controversy. Nothing gets attention like conflict and you get that by triggering certain people on the internet.
There will be hundreds upon hundreds of counter-controversy articles defending her against misogynists and racists... a lot of them are probably already written.
kodial79@reddit
That may be so but it's very likely to backfire. There are bound to be people who won't go to see it because of the controversial casting. I am one of those.
And the thing is Nolan doesn't really need that. He is Nolan, it's the Odyssey and that's enough to make people interested. So why did he choose to mess it up like that?
morknox@reddit
We don't they make a movie about some fictional african legend/myth? Nobody would complain it doesnt have any white people in it.
RealAlphaKaren@reddit
exactly, thats another point, black history and folklore aint worth a movie but white ppl history and folklore with token black ppl are? again, disgusting
oxingames@reddit
Not only Helen, almost every character there. They just don't look mediterranean. Either too white and European or African. The actors don't really match the actual characters and it's sad
mao_dze_dun@reddit
Well, first millennia BC, Eastern Mediterranean - darker skin or mixed race would not be that shocking, TBH. But Helen... Honestly, I am not even pissed of by the race swap, but rather that it was made intentionally to stir controversy and that there is a clear double standard. I am starting to wonder if this isn't just a convenient out in case the movie flops, to excuse the bad numbers with all the racists that didn'y go to see it.
CrazyNegotiation1934@reddit
Zendaya can pass as the younger spoilt brat child of Athena, that posts on tik tok and listen to pop music maybe.
Not sure how can pass as the godess of war.
DocGerbill@reddit
Mexican Athena, really?
Kitsooos@reddit
She could pass depending on the actor. Some Latin Americans look very Mediterranean.
MrDDD11@reddit
Well Latin America was made by the Mediterranean Spanish and Portuguese.
sorokii@reddit
Portugese are not mediterranean tho
sissi4hell@reddit
Neither many of Spaniards living in the North.
AdministrationDue153@reddit
Latin America was *plunded by Spanish and Portuguese.
kodial79@reddit
Skin and hair color isn't everything. That face is not Greek.
AdministrationDue153@reddit
Americans just don't get it... they do not understand we do not even use the word "race" as they do.
mishkatormoz@reddit
Honestly, Helen of Troy is a cursed role by definition. There always be too much people complayning that she do not match their taste and this means she is not beatifull enough. Lol, genious move would be not show her at all, ot at least not show her face - only backshots and voice from behind the camera.
0_politics_alt@reddit
Malcolm X is a real person, Athena and Helen are very much not real
patiperro_v3@reddit
I think people need to give up on this mythology being any sort of historical document.
The armour is wrong by a few hundred years or something and looks plastic, the ships are viking ships… like who cares at this point. The mediterranean sailors look like they’ve never had a sun tan…
Just accept that this is yet another take on the myth and move on. Now you have more freedom to accept the many more changes you will see and just see if the movie is any good or just shit, independent of any historical accuracies.
Thinking about it, maybe it would have been best if Nolan had just made a version based in modern times.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
No
Misscasting is a valid reason for not liking a movie.
patiperro_v3@reddit
Sure, but in my experience people complaining about miscasting are the same people that are complaining about armour, ship, style, etc.
At what point do you go, "You know what? This is not my vision and I don't care to watch someone else's take on this myth." Because at this point, Nolan has departed so much from the Homeric idea people have, and that from his contemporary artists (Which were in itself a massive departure, as it transmitted orally for hundreds of years before that, with many different clashing versions going around), that at this point it must surely be fitting and in keeping with the tradition of myth, that yet another version is now being created, that clashes with the previous one, different in its own way.
Just sit back and take it as that and nothing more. Just one more variation added to a long list of different variations. Less headaches that way.
Nirados@reddit
Then it should be called something else and be different in more ways. You argument doesn't make much sense as we have had this version of Illyad and odyssey for hundreds of years now unchanged, it is status quo and probably somewhere close to what the original was because guess what, there are people that put work and effort into finding out the most probably original version of the story to the best of their abilities.
Direct-Antelope-9583@reddit
Why should it be called something different? Because they don't do what you want them to?
Anybody can do anything with the Illiad. It's public not private.
It's a movie. Not a goal to be 'the most probable original version'. If you want that. Make it yourself.
patiperro_v3@reddit
I'm sure some of the previous different versions of The Odyssey might have also been called The Odyssey. Don't see why this one should be any different. "Directed by Nolan" should be enough to clue people in as to what style they should expect. As for different, I think it's already pretty different, mofo in the poster looks like a Gotham villain. Running time alone will take care of that, there's no way they are fitting everything. We will see anyway.
But it changed plenty of times before that, for hundreds of years as well... we are simply continuing that tradition.
We already know they weren't even remotely close with their depictions of armour back then (Homer's contemporaries at least), so that should be a big enough clue that they were also wrong about other things... and who can blame them if the story has been passed orally for hundreds of years? Have you ever played "Chinese whispers" or "The telephone" as a kid and seen how much a message is distorted? Multiply that effect by hundreds of years and through different cultures. You really think they were even close to the wherever the first one was? I don't believe that for a second. Don't believe it for religious texts, much less for mythological works of art.
They should make their own version. I'd love to see it. But even then, it would be another new version, never the original. I suspect a lot of whatever was in the original has been lost/changed over time. Probably lost before Homer's version was even started. Maybe the shittier versions where lost in time and the more exiting/memorable additions kept?
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
I get 100% of what you say.
I am a "either all or nothing" in regards to these things. Either try to be as close to the original as possible or go " fuck it we ball".
For example, Titus(Antony Hopkins) and Richard the Third( Ian McKellen). These are NOT historical accurate in the way they depict Romans or English.And yet I adore them as movies.
Nolan and people like Nolan keep going around the bush with their semi-originality and it's getting ridiculous. Besides , the black casting is almost exclusively identity politics and quotas, which also ruins it for me.
P.S. Zendaya fucking sucks
patiperro_v3@reddit
That's fair, I don't think she's that good either... but honestly I'm not bothered by the rest of the cast. It's not like they've hired Kevin Hart or Nick Jonas. The rest of them are all pretty accomplished actors IMO.
As far as style and choice, I figured this was gonna go pretty wild as soon as I saw the helmet poster with the human spine. It looked straight outta Gotham City, but instead of fighting back I just accepted it for what it was, another variation in a long list of variations dating back thousands of years. When you take that approach, you just let go and let the director show you his take.
Now I am more interested to see if he actually makes a compelling and interesting movie. It would be a shame if after all the controversy, it just turns out to be a boring dud.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Did you compalin about Napoleon and Gladiator II then? They didn't hire Corsican or Latins to play their respective roles
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
I complained because they suck ball ass.I also despise their really bad casting.
Which is the reason why I really liked Barbarians (season 1 only) , they ACTUALLY hired mostly Italians and Germans or anything that looks like them or like what most perceive as Italian or German.
I don't want them to be Greek for the Odyssey, I want them to look Greek.Same goes for Latin , Corsican , Black, white or any other role. Let's address the elephant in the room - all this "black Cleopatra /Helen " bullshit is identity politics / quotas.
Not everything is fucking downtown New York.When I see Shogun I expect to see a Japanese Toranaga, when I see 12 years a slave or that Nelson Mandela movie with Morgan Freeman I want the protagonist to be fucking black , not Asian not white not anything other than black.
Same goes for fiction, be it fantasy, sci fi or whatever.Misscasting is real , wanting a group to actually look distinct and not like a Benetton ad is real.
GercektenGul@reddit
Malcolm X is a real person
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
You don't know if Helen wasn't a real person, we don't know if she was real either. But even in a fictional situation, someone born in Sparta isn't African, is Greek. At most olived skin south European, still white.
Direct-Antelope-9583@reddit
Lol, we do know she wasn't a real person.
Just because there are parts of the illiad that might be based on actual events it is a gross exaggeration to say that she might have been real. The character as described in the illiad is 100% fictional.
And it's not a documentary, but a movie. They can use artistic freedom as they see fit.
PrizeSyntax@reddit
Ok, let's play, Black panther played by, let's say Mark Wahlberg or Matt Damon
bphunter@reddit
That's not an argument if your kind would shit and piss themselves if blade or blank panther was played by Jake Gyllenhaal
Tiny-Mulberry-2114@reddit
No shit Sherlock
GercektenGul@reddit
Sherlock is fictional
smiley_x@reddit
Helen, the fictional character in the fictional story of the Iliad and the Odyssey needs to carry a specific weight. That of being the cause of a massive war because she was a queen of a Greek kingdom who left to marry a prince of an enemy kingdom. This just breaks the immersion and the importance of the character.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
There is a thing called misscasting you know...
Imagine Brother Bear, but Kenai is depicted as a black guy.
Sure, it is fiction , but that doesn't mean that fiction doesn't have rules.
Defiant-Yellow-2375@reddit
I'd watch that. Stratham fighting racism with his fists and minimal mumbledl words.
neefhuts@reddit
I mean if you accurately casted Helen of Troy she would've been quite fat, I'm not sure you would have liked that
Fair-Confection4411@reddit
Athena is a goddess, she can probably change her look so fine. And Helen should be black. If someone is white and stated as the prettiest or the smartest in the original that means they should be color swapped. Leaving someone prettiest white is racism.
decimalegio@reddit
Jason Statham e' troppo nero 😅 😅 Chris Hemsworth sarebbe perfetto per la parte di Malcolm X.
Relevant_History_297@reddit
Malcolm X is a real person, that's a slight difference
Super_Sprinkles_7204@reddit
No, none of them pass for Athena and Helen of Troy.
What would happen if I directed a movie and cast Ryan Gosling as a Yoruba god? I'd be cancelled and mocked online for decades.
Homer refers to her as "richly dressed," "fair-faced," and "swan-like". She is associated with fair skin and light-colored hair. She was born in Sparta for crying out loud.
Hollywood should top black washing (and we as customers who vote with our money, accepting such) our culture. If they want a story with black protagonist there are plenty of stories in Africa, Aboriginal Australia and indigenous Americans.
Adventurous-Sort-671@reddit
Agree. No ships would be sailing 🥹
Emotional_Frame_2873@reddit
Zendaya as athena? Do u have the right number of chromosomes? Fk off r#@$
OfficiallyJoeBiden@reddit
lol I agree with you but your example is a miss. I get your point though
ruairi1983@reddit
Watch Iphigenia (1977) instead. Just got released on Blu-ray.
onurcamel@reddit
Fuck the mother of whoever made Helen and Athena play the roles of niggas
-RichardBenson-@reddit
TenPointsforListenin@reddit
They’re all well known but like… do we not have other people who want roles in movies? This is such resume padding that I feel like it’s just gonna wind up the same few actors in everything
bagel4you@reddit
Nolan is gay, thats why he see no problem with this cast, just like in case with Maggie Gyllenhaal in Dark Knight
Buk_voj_kryp_Z_bardh@reddit
Is this real?
Serious_Sense_6097@reddit
Yes
Buk_voj_kryp_Z_bardh@reddit
They are not right at their mind
AdministrationDue153@reddit
They're simply Americans
lacostedacroc@reddit
Isnt Nolan British
AdministrationDue153@reddit
He's British-American
travelingsket@reddit
And yet your people can't seem to stop playing the lottery to get in our country.
Buk_voj_kryp_Z_bardh@reddit
How are both things related?
Crims0nwolf@reddit
You should do something about this dog. This is defamation.
Worried-Owl-9198@reddit
Black Helen
smiley_x@reddit
Yep exactly. I would be fine if Liputa Nyongo played Circe, but Helen is a stretch.
Worried-Owl-9198@reddit
I d have an issue with her as well. It's not racism, but it's simply as absurd as Brad Pitt playing Obama.
Thick_Cost_609@reddit
Brad Pitt played Obama? Which movie was that?
SaintNutella@reddit
How so?
Obama is a real person. There are pictures of him and, I believe, he is one of the most recognizable people on Earth. There's also a very specific part of his identity that people know about him.
Athena is a Goddess who, like the other Greek God(dess)s appear in any form of their choosing, not even limited to human appearances. Athena herself is particular popular for this. Even Helen is a fake person but I can see the argument for making her accurate to her book counterpart. But comparing Athena or other shapeshifters who appear in a myriad of ways to Obama is quite absurd.
I get the outrage, but it's comments like this that make it hard to tell when the critique is legitimate versus questionable.
losdreamer50@reddit
Why? It's a modern american interpretation of an ancient mythological play not a documentary
GercektenGul@reddit
Obama is a real person
Worried-Owl-9198@reddit
So?
GercektenGul@reddit
You compared casting a fictional character to casting a real person
CaptainRice6@reddit
It is not like they don't change the race or gender of real people. Cleopatra comes to mind for example. So don't try to make it seem like it happened because it is fiction.
BoratSagdieev@reddit
Helen was also likely a real person or at the least she is treated as a historical figure. Someone like circe or athena is not
Nervous-Creme-6392@reddit
Obama isnt real, he can't hurt you
ShoddySlide5672@reddit
Blade is not real, can we get a white actor playing him? What about Black Panther? Remake of Beverly Hills Cop with a white dude?
ContraCanadensis@reddit
So you’d be cool with Brad Pitt playing Olorun?
Drafter1991@reddit
It's not that I personally have such a big problem... What annoys me is that for ex when God's of Egypt movie came out for some people were complaining that the movie was about Egypt without black people. But now that we have a movie about Greece with black Helen everyone's OK?
TLDR political corectness is what annoys me most and not the black Helen herself
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
There are several black characters in various plays in Serbian theaters and they are all played by - drumroll - white Serbs. Black people are a large portion of the US population, there is no reason why they shouldn't get to play all these characters, that's what acting is, pretending you are someone you are not.
Don't you think it's weird when such a mixed country like the US makes a movie with only white actors? In India all the main actors are very light skinned, even though the country is fairly dark skinned on average, don't you find that weird?
What annoys me is this european obsession with american culture wars, our countries don't have the same issues US has, why are you guys projecting yourself to the US and US to ourselves. You will always end up on the side of US reactionaries because you live in a homogenous white country, so racist white america is the side that's easiest to identify with. But you are actually just importing a foreign cancerous cultural framework, fuck that shit, we don't need american culture wars here, never mention this again.
Fast-Vegetable-1234@reddit
So you are okay with Timothee Chalamet playing Barack Obama?
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
Why not? Why would I as a Serb care what race is an actor for a Barack Obama movie? You have a serious case of US brain worms if those things are important to you. That kind of controversy would be the only reason why I would even watch a US made Barack Obama movie...
Fast-Vegetable-1234@reddit
Ok then, Michael B.Jordan as Milos Obilic?
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
Now you are talking, that's a movie I'd love to watch. Would you have a problem with a bollywood movie about The Odyssey where every actor is Indian?
Fast-Vegetable-1234@reddit
Not if it's set in India instead of Greece.
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
It's set in Greece
Fast-Vegetable-1234@reddit
Why are Indians making a movie set in Greece and casting Indian actors as Greeks?
Curious_boyOS@reddit
"...european obsession with american..." What? Last I checked, Greece wasn't in the US. Last I checked, Ancient Greek culture was not a part of the US history. From over here, it seems like US fucktards are the ones obsessed with finding whatever interesting story there is (mostly from outside of the US since the US "history" is a baby in comparison) and making it super diverse because their culture is the one most prominently obsessed with culture wars.
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
So? Would it bother you if India made a movie about the Iliad and made all the actors Indian? Or if China made the movie and make all the actors Chinese?
nistemevideli2puta@reddit
How many Serbian black theater actors can you name?
I can wait...
AlternativeDraw1795@reddit
OP made really unusual point with that statement. How can they give roll of black character to black actor if there is no black theatar actors in Serbia?
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
That is not my point. My point is that no one in Serbia cares when a white serbian actor plays a black role in a serbian play, but they suddenly care when a black actor in the US plays a white role. Why? The whole debate is pathethic even for US citizens, but it's doubly pathetic to have those US brain worms when you don't even live in the US.
Nirados@reddit
Sadly Americans export consumer culture and appropriate European stories to twist and make movies about
AbueloAdolfo@reddit
Exactly, that’s how all the woke BS got here.
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
no one is forcing you to watch
Nirados@reddit
I really don't but idkn if you heard about this new technology called the internet and social media combined with marketing and promotions.
Tinenan@reddit
Technically there isn't a single description of her in either poem so...
National-Frame8712@reddit
I mean, would it be acceptable to make the sky purple just because the text doesn’t explicitly state that it’s blue? Considering the setting’s origin, place of start and time period; I don’t think any of the characters, let alone the main cast,would have anything beyond a typical Mediterranean tan.
losdreamer50@reddit
She looks nice, can't wait to see the movie
Rintez5@reddit
Anne Hathaway is goated
Charlize Theron is great
Zendaya is zoomer slop
Lupita is literally who?
Thick_Cost_609@reddit
I think its perfect for this fantasy version of the Odyssey. My wife (who have no knowledge whatsoever of greek mythology) wants us to go and see it when it premieres here so I will watch it. When I read the Odyssey 1978 ( the 1957 edition of the 1908 translation by Lagerlöf) I could never imagine that someone would be so creative with the story as Nolan. 😛
MF_JAWN@reddit
hollywood slop, skip
Plastic_Dog9972@reddit
exactly, nobody complains about having the same 5 actors/actresses in every single movie, they just hurried to show how racist they are
FatefulDonkey@reddit
Yeah, let's film the Pearl Harbour with Asians at the harbour. See how good that turns out
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
As a mater of fact, they were a lot of Japanese/Americans at that time. After Perl Harbor and the declaration of war, all of these people were arrested and imprisoned in concentration camps (similar to the nazi ones).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
FatefulDonkey@reddit
Did you consider what my point was?
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Yes I did! And my reply invalidated your point.
FatefulDonkey@reddit
The point remains, regardless if my example was bad or inaccurate.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
What exactly is your point? please describe your point instead of using more inaccurate examples
FatefulDonkey@reddit
The point is a story that is pure fiction VS story based on historical material.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Homer's Odyssey is fiction. Also the movie is fiction based on Homer's Odyssey.
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
It's fiction based on (by archaeological evidence) real events. And ancient Greece had no Sub-Saharan Africans.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Well, we can for sure see black people in minoan frescoes.
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
You do get they depicted with whom they traded with, not with whom they lived with, right? Or are you dense like a 5 metre thick brick wall?
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
How do you know that?
let's take this photo for example
https://sites.rhodes.edu/sites/sites/files/2022-06/bull.jpg
BTW: Lupita will play Calypso and not Helen, if this is your issue.
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
That's a literal tanned Mediterranean. That's literally how European Meds tan in the summer.
I thought you meant this, which shows that tanned Mediterranean, in front of actual black skinned people
That's a more pathetic argument than I initially thought.
Also no: Calypso is also a bad choice, because her description gives off a typical Mediterranean woman. It's a bad choice because no Greek back then, on whom Odyssey and the Iliad are based on, were blacks. Simple as.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
lol! WTF?
It's pointless to continue. I lost enough time with your BS arguments.
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
Except that's how we tan.
We're not northern Europeans. We can tan a lot. Like this, especially farmers DO tan like that.
You just want to dark wash a nation like your own to fit your thoughts. That's not how it works.
With your life that is
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
Oh and sth more important:
It might be fiction, but we have physical descriptions of the Gods themselves. And for most of the characters. They're not up to interpretation... They're crystal clear.
Oral tradition seems like it kept these characteristics into the bodies of the texts of both the Iliad and the Odyssey.
FatefulDonkey@reddit
The book is written as fiction. But if you're using it as a source for a movie, you can choose to bastardise it or not. Why don't we also make Hercules into a black LGBTQ personal? Wait, that might actually be under wraps by Disney
ColdAndGrumpy@reddit
Yeah, you might wanna read up a bit on Hercules, champ...
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Exactly. It's up to the director to decide how close they would follow a fictious book.
Exactly! Why not? It's all fiction after all.
Of course they did. They did the same to "1001 Arabian Nights". why not?
BTW; If you don't like you can just not watch it in any case. There's no point in whining about it in social media. I for example hate the Barbie movie because I'm a feminist. Does it matter at all? Should I start whining about it in social media?
FatefulDonkey@reddit
It's not just a fiction book though. The Greek gods were part of the Greek civilization.
Should we also make a movie with Jesus being black or Asian? Since it's all based on a fiction book as well
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
All Gods are fiction.
And fyi: gods can be whatever they want. They won't ask your permission for example in order for them to turn into a bull (true story), well..... maybe this is not true after all.
And I just corrected a historical (not fictitious) fact that you got wrong about Asian people in the US and Hawaii.
BigPapaBear69@reddit
"Similar to the Nazi ones" So death camps that killed millions? Strange it seems only 1500 people died mostly of turberculosis outbrakes. Japanese must be really hard to kill.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Not the same. Similar. ie same concept.
kodial79@reddit
That's Americans for you. A bunch of randoms gathered from every corner in the world who discriminate against everyone both within their country and outside of it. Their whole existence is based in picking some group to hate.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Contrary to the Balkans? lol! Let's be serious here.
LadyGrey_oftheAbyss@reddit
You know that there was Thousands of Asian Americans - inculding navy - during the attack on Pearl Harbour right?
The gods aside (they can be play by whatever) should they have casts Balkans for a story taking place majority in the Balkans- yes
but hey they should have done that for the Brad Pitt movie as well and I still like it
if the moive is good and well acted - I will probably see it - tho maybe not in theaters if it isn't mind blowing
FatefulDonkey@reddit
They were in the docks? Anyway, I think most people can infer what my point was.
Brad Pitt looks like a Greek god, so he's approved.
CaptainFriedChicken@reddit
Lmao greek gods don't exist, and they did they probably wouldn't look like Brad Pitt. Have you ever seen someone from Greece?
FatefulDonkey@reddit
They didn't exist. But Greek civilization existed where all this is supposed to be based on.
GercektenGul@reddit
It does a great disservice to history to ignore the fact that a vibrant powerful empire like ancient Greece both inspired and forced massive migration throughout the entire region.
LadyGrey_oftheAbyss@reddit
In the docks? what does that even mean
yes they were apart of the US navy and the civilians population - it was a bad example because you can easily make a moive about Pearl harbor with Asian actors with no issue so it actually convoluted the point
more so because then people could just say how do you know they didn't look like that - there was plenty of immigration during that time and the other side of the Mediterranean is Africa
besides the point that in mythology Zeus was Helen of Troy father and came from an egg
if they already casted a goddess- this probably isn't going to be the most historically accurate but
there many ways to argue the other side
Even so - not one main Balkans actor is pretty shit
FatefulDonkey@reddit
I obviously meant that all bombees were Asian. But anyway, I'm not American and honestly all those details are beside the point. The point is fiction VS non-fiction
LadyGrey_oftheAbyss@reddit
So not really? You point would mean that it would be ok to have other ethnicities as it was possible they were there
where I pretty sure you are arguing the opposite
Also this moive is going to be fiction
They should have hired at least one of the main actors to be from the region but just like the last one (which was more historical fiction) and the God's of Egypt moive - Hollywood gonna Hollywood
MF_JAWN@reddit
no he didn’t
Ok-Club-7675@reddit
How could it be possible for thousands of asian Americans + other races being there at such a small area.
LadyGrey_oftheAbyss@reddit
Hawaii isn't that small (same size as Albania) and Asians are the largest ethnic group with a popular over 150,000 during the 1940s
Ok-Club-7675@reddit
Oh, you are correct about Hawaii but what about Oahu island where Pearl Harbor is located.
LadyGrey_oftheAbyss@reddit
Oshu is larger then Singapore which as 6 million people today - but also back in the 1940s and even today most people live on Oahu so it doesn't change my above statement
Ok-Club-7675@reddit
You are correct!
New_Entertainer_4895@reddit
Almost 40% of Hawaii's population is Asian...
GorkeyGunesBeg@reddit
At the time ?
Returntomonke21@reddit
and also almost 0% of the US seamen on the carriers
LadyGrey_oftheAbyss@reddit
that isn't true at all
Returntomonke21@reddit
Respect to the 6 million Asian marines of the US navy in 1940
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Indeed! Finally after years got the respect they wanted.
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/topics/asian-pacific-american-world-war-ii
Returntomonke21@reddit
Nolan should apologise for not casting Lucy Liu as Penelope in honour of this
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Pearl Harbor movie was directed by Michael Bay, and I don't recall a Penelope character in that movie. Do you mean Penelope Cruz? I'm not sure if she played at that movie.
FatefulDonkey@reddit
Well I think most people got the point
DebtCollectorForMami@reddit
You weirdos on Reddit think everything is racist. I’ll take a Martin Luther king movie with a Chinese actor and youll have no words.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Odyssey wasn't a real person. It was all fiction.
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
First of all, say "Odyssey isn't a real-life story" or an aggregation of characters. Speak proper English, that is, if you want to bring your stupid points across.
Secondly, we have the characteristics of both the deities and of the mortal characters in these works.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Yeah! Right! OK! Let me speak proper English then: Odysseus wasn't a real person. Honer made it up. Even Homer wasn't a real person, but that's another story.
Deities won't ask you about their appearance. They can even turn into a bull, a swan, a horse, a dolphin, or even an owl.
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
Yeah, but he still based it on actual individuals, hence why he gives such particular descriptions.
The appearances the gods can take are again extremely particular, for particular gods. And guess again: they have particular characteristics of appearance, even more particularised than the human characters.
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
I'm not losing any more time with you. It's pointless and it's not even fun.
thestoicnutcracker@reddit
Because you cannot offer anything of substance.
Direct-Antelope-9583@reddit
Yeah, you're not proving the point you think you're proving.
Only that you struggle with taking the context into account😂
Super-Estate-4112@reddit
The way you think only exists in american leftist circles, the entore world is baffled by how stupid it is to call racism at cases of american washing.
GercektenGul@reddit
Did you know that there are black and brown skinned people who don't live in or come from America?
Super-Estate-4112@reddit
I know, but is it Americans who always insist on forcing diversity on characters and contexts that have nothing to do with it.
GercektenGul@reddit
If it has nothing to do with it, then why does it matter to you so much?
Super-Estate-4112@reddit
It makes the movie less accurate, thus less interesting. Greek Mythology should have Greek-looking people portraying the gods
GercektenGul@reddit
Interesting, if you're looking for accurate information on ancient Greece there are a lot of studies and articles out there explaining the obvious which is that huge successful empires generally involve a lot of migration and immigration so they tend to have a lot of ethnic diversity. Hope you look into it a bit more if you're open to learning.
CrazyNegotiation1934@reddit
Indeed, imagine trying to put down Greeks and say they were not at all like Greeks today
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
People don't need to get amused by some kind of 'Murican washing', as in making everything look like a random group from NYC so that so-called racial groups from the US would feel represented. I don't mind any ethnicity in a film, but that's rather annoying. Then, even though the US flicks had their merits once upon a time, I don't watch low-brow Hollywood films unless they're B-films anyway.
No_Map8209@reddit
Thank you.
FishermanStivi@reddit
You are an idiot
idgfaboutpolitics@reddit
Racism my ass. Use your brain
PeaceTo0l@reddit
They cant be that dumb. There must be some background situation. Like financier requierments and like...
GroupGeneral6811@reddit
Yeah, I was excited at first and then I read about casting and I would not even watch it.
GercektenGul@reddit
Why?
klepht_x@reddit
It would have been nice to have any Greeks cast, at all. Also would have been nice to have the guy who spent all that time and energy to get an accurate black hole for Interstellar to get some accurate Bronze Age ships and armor instead of a fucking viking ship and a vault of armor from Clash of the Titans.
Like, Homer's verse is filled with references to armor of gleaming bronze, and I don't see any gleaming bronze.
kodial79@reddit
First we have Greeks fighting the kraken in one movie, now we have Greeks sailing on viking ships in the other movie. WTF Hollywood!
MF_JAWN@reddit
every hollywood interpretation of egyptian and norse mythology i have seen is also apalling
Buggering_Hedgehogs@reddit
FTFY every Hollywood interpretation of *any culture's mythology
Otherwise-Badger1061@reddit
I don't think that any mythology have been butchered as badly as Greek in Hollywood. :D
onanoc@reddit
Greek mythology is not diverse enough. It's full of greeks! Needs more new yorkers in the cast.
Make Greece New York Again!
DevNopes@reddit
There are no Viking ships in this movie, and if you saw those ships and thought they were Viking ships, you are as ignorant as you accuse others to be.
Returntomonke21@reddit
you still have time to delete this
kodial79@reddit
He literally uses a replica of a viking ship!!! https://www.forres-gazette.co.uk/news/inverness-pit-stop-for-viking-ship-ahead-of-filming-of-new-b-385029/
DevNopes@reddit
They are wrong. They say its Draken Harand Hårfagre, but it's not. This is DHH
Not the same ship at all. And the woodworking is completely different.
Alternative_Bath_232@reddit
We saw Dragons in game of thrones but people complain about Starbucks cup smh
Shaolinpower2@reddit
It was a valid complain. The show was famous with it's well-cared details. The final seasons were so sloppy that they didn't even check the scene if everything's alright. Also, these 2 situations are irrelevant.
NoshoutMonaan@reddit
What is the point you're trying to make? Dragons exist as well as magic and are a normal and natural part of the ASOIAF world, meanwhile starbucks as well as coffee and fucking plastic is not in the MEDIEVAL FANSTASY WORLD.
morknox@reddit
His point is that the fictional story of Odyssey is set in a real historical team period. And in that real historical time period the greeks didnt have viking ships. So them having viking ships doesnt fit with the world of that fictional story.
Alternative_Bath_232@reddit
That's the point
morknox@reddit
Not sure why you are getting downvoted.
blackcoffee17@reddit
That doesn't make any sense
morknox@reddit
How does it not?
Just because something is "fiction" doesnt mean everything fits. That was the point he was making.
Odyssey is fiction set within a real historical time period. So it feels better if that real historical time period is taken into account when retelling that fictional story.
Equivalent-Oil-1006@reddit
Mediterranean people represented in hollywood are either blonde hair and blue eyed Northern Europeans or Sub-Saharan Africans, no in between lol
BigPapaBear69@reddit
I know one greek dude. He looks like any swede except he has a big old nose.
War_Is_A_Raclette@reddit
Which is interesting because they are literally the genetic in between of those two.
UwUZombie@reddit
Red and blonde hair were considered special in the ancient times in Greece because of how rare they were. Most heroes were described or depicted having blonde or red hair.
Helen of troy embodied the beauty that ancient Greece perceived not the beauty of modern globalized America.
Past_Consequence_536@reddit
Well female ancient greek marble statues depict women that would be deemed beautiful today too.
SansBouillie@reddit
They also usually have a British accent
No_Magazine_6806@reddit
To give an impression of "sophistication"? I was so shocked when I visited Moscow that the Russians actually don't speak between themselves English with strong accent. In all movies they do.
There is only one Odyssey worth seeing that is Franco Rossi's version.
You can even see it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjN_merCA0Q
morknox@reddit
Its less about it sounding "sophisticated" and more about it sounding less "modern". (Despite the fact that linguists say american english is closer to how english sounded >500 years ago than modern british english).
We think american accent sounds very 'modern'.
No_Magazine_6806@reddit
How did they come to that conclusion about American English being closer to old English? It can be true, obviously, but how did they measure it? Also, wonder what they mean by "American English" as you have also a lot of different accents.
I understand that e.g., it might be possible to guess how latin language sounded like based on the Greek language but even that sounds like a stretch to me :-)
PS. I personally do think that RP is the most sophisticated sounding English accent.
brush_with_color@reddit
😂🙌🏼
Terrible_Duty_7643@reddit
Eric Bana Hector was great, both acting and appearance, and he is ethnically a Croat/German.
ToxicRocketry@reddit
Blonde hair and blue eyes are actually relatively common in the Mediterranean nations, especially in ancient times, as opposed to sub-Saharan blacks, which are historically inaccurate no matter which way you try to spin it.
MF_JAWN@reddit
this is objectively untrue
ToxicRocketry@reddit
FTFY.
MF_JAWN@reddit
you’re just saying random shit, light colored hair and eyes were seen as divine precisely because they were so ridiculously rare/non-existent.
on the matter of sub-saharan africans they’ve had presence on the mediterranean through egypt since the bronze age.
JRJenss@reddit
Have you seen Max von Sydow playing Jesus in The Greatest Story Ever Told? Lol!!
Galikos_Kel@reddit
Mediterranean people erasure
octavionultodoritor@reddit
But greeks are white!!!! No representation!!!!
AdministrationDue153@reddit
You know, we just don't care about this stupid shit/mindset, we are just Mediterranean/Greeks/European and you are trying to depict our culture with an all-American cast. We are NOT that way and it is offensive. What about US Europeans/Mediterraneans being tired of YOUR cultural appropriation? Make a movie about your myths... if you have any.
LoyalZebra@reddit
Well said. I am not Greek but South European ans I agree.
AdministrationDue153@reddit
Yeah me too! But una faccia una razza ;)
gufted@reddit
According to US it wasn’t until long after the 40s that Greeks were considered white.
Beautiful_Ad1971@reddit
We are Greeks first, other lables are not of interest.
kostac600@reddit
It’s not about DNA, it’s about the nous, intellectual orientation, so I’ve heard.
avdpos@reddit
Sounds like my nice company that made "diverse video" according to American standards. (We have no US offices and businesses).
But that diversity dmhad all people look american and not like the diversity between north europe, middle europe, India and immigrants from middle east taht we actually have. Non of that real diversity was represented in any way - just a east Asian and afro-american (obviously, and I write afro-american and not African /euro-african for a reason).
Have never feelt that a video did exclude all groups in a company in such a impressive way.
CroatInAKilt@reddit
The American HR cult must be expunged from Europe at all costs
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Apparently Michael Vlamis (Greek-American actor) will have a role.
CrazyNegotiation1934@reddit
I think the IQ and intellect level of the Hollywood people is massively overestimated, i doubt Nolan has any idea about Oddysey or Greece, probably just saw Persy Jackson and casted all copying from there.
I am sure he cant point out Greece on the map either.
hkotek@reddit
Try 300 if you want to see Greeks.
Deep_Maintenance_734@reddit
You are bold to assume people who are making this actually read the poem
losdreamer50@reddit
Bronze age armour looks hilarious, people would think it's a comedy
Beautiful_Ad1971@reddit
They literally used exactly that armor for the trojans in the movie TROY what are you saying
losdreamer50@reddit
that had nothing to do with real bronze age armor, which looked like this:
https://cdn.sci.news/images/enlarge11/image_12959e-Dendra-Armor.jpg
Dismal_Support9328@reddit
And you’re telling me that doesn’t look fantastical or hard as fuck?
losdreamer50@reddit
For me personally, I think the design could work with some modifications. But I'm not against seeing something new
Beautiful_Ad1971@reddit
The only thing that looks like a comedy, is the armor they chose, instead of actual bronze age greek armor
Informal_Treat_4953@reddit
it looks 3D printed
Hideharuhaduken420@reddit
I'd actually love to see Zendaya as Athena. She has an ethereal aura that would make her ideal for that role. Lupita looks African not Asian or Greek lol and Charlize looks a bit too Northern? Hathaway looks too British
Just_Particular7605@reddit
Ah blackwashing white culture i see.
Ethraelus@reddit
Lupita doesn’t fit; the rest are great I think
felixsetmode@reddit
I dont get Zendaya at all, in any role, anywhere!
ZestycloseStorm1574@reddit
If that is the helen of troy, this movie does not deserve me paying for the tickets. Another skip
Numerous-Movie-9035@reddit
Half legit, half stupid casting
Few_Face_9224@reddit
We wuz greekz n shieeeet
travelingsket@reddit
We just needz €1 and we can go to our hut from street begging and give back the neighbors their barefoot children.
Motor-Beginning3613@reddit
What is that abomination of a hair on Tony ?
stentonsarecool@reddit
technotronica@reddit
Woke. Not historically accurate. There were no west Africans in Troy.
JerzyPopieluszko@reddit
it’s equally unlikely as having Western European-looking people in Troy but you seem to omit that part
technotronica@reddit
No anywhere close to unlikelyness. Sub-saharan African was unheard of and unknown of until the age of discovery. If they at least used a Nubian/Habesh woman it wouldn't go against logic. I guess they are ignorant and don't see the difference. Black is black, its whatever.
JerzyPopieluszko@reddit
"Sub-saharan African was unheard of and unknown of until the age of discovery" that is just blatantly untrue my man, Sub-Saharan and Saharan Africans from Nubia (modern day Sudan) were both trading with and warring with Egypt for most of antiquity, the same Egypt that was one of the most important partner to ancient Greek culture
we literally have the ancient Greek descriptions of modern day Sudan, which they called Triakontaschoinos
ancient Greeks of the Troyan era (1200-1300 BC) would be more likely to meet a Nubian from what's now Sudan than a Proto-Germanic or Proto-Slavic person
technotronica@reddit
Im specifically referring to tropical Africa. Not Nubia etc. What you just stated is a stretch. You know how unimaginably far away Nubia is? Even if they had contact it was limited. So it wasn't the ordinary.
JerzyPopieluszko@reddit
You said Sub-Saharan Africans. Nubians were Sub-Saharan Africans (well, geographically Saharan bur I mean phenotypically). Nubians also lived in Egypt and mixed with Egyptians - we know for a fact from hieroglyphs and art that there were black people in ancient Egypt. Ancient Greece and Egypt were just across the most actively sailed sea of the ancient world and had very active exchange.
Meanwhile Scandinavia was roughly similar distance as Nubia but separated by uncharted wilderness and we have no reason to assume they had contact with Bronze Age Greece or Anatolia, unlike Egypt and Nubia.
Also, even the Greeks and Anatolians themselves were most likely darker back then than modern ones, after centuries of trade and mixing with Slavic and Scandinavian tribes throughout the Byzantine period.
So yeah, Charlize Theron is a out as out of place there as Lupita.
MohamedKebab@reddit
Helen of Troy was from a royal dynasty. Do you think a sub-saharan dynasty would be having power in Troy? Same goes for Scandinavian though, but I believe a scandinavian person looks more similar to Anatolian people back then than a sub-saharan person - especially because of skin colour. Prove me wrong please.
JerzyPopieluszko@reddit
No, but that's irrelevant. Have you seen the costumes in that movie? Nothing about it is even close to historical accuracy. And yet, both pale ass blonde people and Sub-Saharan African people are less inaccurate than the Hollywood-esque, boring, ugly, ahistorical costumes they're wearing.
"I believe a scandinavian person looks more similar to Anatolian people back then than a sub-saharan person - especially because of skin colour." - why would it matter though? Do we need to take out a skin-shade scale for comparison? And where exactly on that spectrum the suspension of disbelief breaks?
Everything in this movie - the costumes, the scenography, Charlize Theron, all of that looks nothing like Bronze Age Anatolia, it's all a fairytale pseudohistorical setting. So why is Lupita specifically grinding your gears? Maybe because seeing black people in roles of people of power and beauty doesn't fit your mental image of them?
MohamedKebab@reddit
I haven't seen that movie. I guess it sucks then. I have nothing against black people in roles of power and beauty, why would you assume that? I just say it is ahistorical that a sub-saharan dynasty has power in Troy. If that would be true Homer would probably have written about it. He would have also written if a scandinavian person would assume that position, so that's also ahistorical. However, do you think a sub-saharan Helen would fit the beauty standards of Greek heterosexual men at that time? She is supposed to be the most beautiful women in Greek mythology, most greeks would imagine her to be, you know - greek looking.
technotronica@reddit
She's woke and wants to revision history to fit the blackwashed narrative of "we WUZ everything". That blacks always existed in Europe, or "Europeans were black" as in "they were Africans". Which of course is absurd and untrue. If our ancestors supposedly had darker skin, or even black skin, that wouldn't make them "African" ancestrally. Something that's been refuted recently, but has been pushed on hard the past decade.
technotronica@reddit
False. There was always contact between northern and southern Europeans. Trade routes that predate this time here for thousands of years. Vinča culture was a hub for trade along all the major European rivers like 8000 BC. Later, as an example the amber trade alone between the Baltic and southern Europe was firmly established. That you say Europe north of the Danube was "a wilderness" just proves how ignorant you are. Sorry.
https://youtu.be/k5je7IkR5Wk?si=DZrCVGuridwa8EKQ
JerzyPopieluszko@reddit
Amber road was in its first centuries when the Trojan War supposedly took place. Yes, we have Egyptian mummies from that period with Baltic amber jewelry but that was a single trade route and that route didn't reach Scandinavia, it went to modern day Poland and Baltic states. And yes, the vast majority of Northern Europe was wilderness with relatively small population centres connected by rivers spread across large, dense forests. Trade along the rivers existed but was nowhere as active as Mediterraean trade.
That's why I said Charlize Theron is a out as out of place there as Lupita, not impossible. There was some contact between Greece and Anatolia and Northern and Western Europe in the Bronze Age but nowhere near the level of contact North Africa had with the Bronze Age Greeks and Anatolians.
_pvilla@reddit
There were Ethiopians
Blindeafmuten@reddit
Also this part of the cast is about the Greeks who went in Troy, not the Troyans.
draxd_2023@reddit
Nolan, guy that make movies for people that love smell of their own farts
haikusbot@reddit
Nolan, guy that make
Movies for people that love
Smell of their own farts
- draxd_2023
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^Learn more about me.
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Icy_Mathematician609@reddit
I don’t give a f. Fuck Hollywood and all these overpaid actors. I’d rather see normal people doing normal stuff
Critical_Contract_83@reddit
flaming_sausage@reddit
I hope the movie bombs. We need to stop inserting black people and latinos into contexts where they dont belong simply for diversity's sake. There, I said it.
Flat_Apartment_2850@reddit
I hope that when they make movies about African mythology they will be just as open.
Flat_Apartment_2850@reddit
They all look like they're from ancient Greece.
Few-Interview-1996@reddit
The main question for me is: Is this the face that launched a war? To which I must reply that there are far, far more beautiful dark-skinned women than Ms Nyong'o.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
And white because this isn't science fiction is a historical movie.
Felczer@reddit
Lmao
liquidflows21@reddit
Bruh we dont even know wether Helen is an actual person that lived what are you talking about
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Is the Greko-Trojan war real?
liquidflows21@reddit
I have always been told that it was due to trading reasons and it was actually a war that happened
skviki@reddit
Regardless it isn’t believable that she would be black in ancient Greece’s mythology. It is simply stupid. Zendaya could, maybe pass as middle eastern or mediterranean as Athena, but making Helen black is just one of those stupidities that cause people to circle Trump or Orban at the voting booth, just to exlress protest to such bullshit and feel represented (although more bad comes out of that than not).
LoyalZebra@reddit
Zendaya could not pass as Mediterranean.
kajdelas@reddit
You tripping, she could easily be from North Africa
LoyalZebra@reddit
I mean the Northern part.
liquidflows21@reddit
It is just an adaptation of a poem written by Homer, it is not going to make any harm to anyone
losdreamer50@reddit
Very historical. Everyone knows the Gods of Olympus existed until Jesus Christ cast them out in the epic battle of gods
ringtail_catz@reddit
There are literally two Greek Goddesses in the cast, what are you talking about?
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Greek pagan, not just pagan. Part of Greek ethnos. Why do you ask that question?
kajdelas@reddit
You think Athena was real? Like alive ? Also Zeus ?
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
No, but their image is because was written, painted and sculptured.
kajdelas@reddit
By the imagination of people that had a limited knowledge of how humans can look like, there’s many versions of Jesus because people painted based in what they know of how a person can look like
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Jesus it's not science fiction. In the eyes of the believer he can be whatever the person who believes imagines him. Jesus can take any skin color depending on the liturgy. But historically he was Palestinian Jewish (not arab). Probably levantine or similar. Would have a Mediterranean skin color, picture is as you wish his devine imagine but his human side it's pretty accurately documented.
kajdelas@reddit
Can you describe from your knowledge the difference in phenotype from a Palestinian, an Arab and a Sephardic Jew ?
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Nowadays it's not the same as that time. Sephardic Jews didn't exist during the life of Jesus, they started migrating after. While Arabs nowadays aren't the same as during Roman empire, now it's a linguistic term and ethnic not genetic. Arban conquest of Palestine and north Africa happened centuries after Jesus.
albardha@reddit
Xenophanes, 6th Century BCE
The Illiad is a Greek story that has shaped Greek culture, so the characters, including gods, represent Greek people.
Unless they are explicitly described as non-Greek looking. Like Memnon who is literally described as black, has been drawn as black in Greek art, and he comes from Aethiopia (Greek shorthand for anything south of Egypt, rough equivalent to the designation Subsaharan today)
Ancient Greeks did not deny the existence of black people, had even a myth for their appearance: when Phaeton, the son of Helios (sun god), asks his father to ride his chariot for one day, he steers it wrong and rides it too close to the Earth, so he ends up burning Aethiopia and gives its inhabitants their skin color.
Never have any of the Greek gods been described as Aethiopian. They were described and drawn as Greek.
kajdelas@reddit
It’s a fictional story that use historical facts and context that came from the imagination of Greek writers and now it’s being adapted from the point of view of Nolan. It’s an adaptation that came from the book, most of book adaptations are changed in many ways from GoT to Cinderella. Relax, Greek culture with survive Nolan
albardha@reddit
Iliad is an epic poem, which means neither ‘fiction’, nor ‘imaginary story’ do not capture it as descriptions. It’s a different genre entirely and treating it as fiction or imaginary is a problem because that’s so simplistic.
We know there have been hundreds of thousands of variations, but the version that has survived to modern day has undergone the process of extreme purification, or canonization if you want to call it that way. And even the current canon has been criticized for not being good enough, with the entirety of Book X (Doloneia) and the last 4 lines of the poem entirely are treated as non-canon since at least 1st century BCE, they have simply been kept in the text to teach people good vs bad writing (for epic standards of course).
For example, there are elements that we know have been taken off the canon, but were known to the writers and artists of the time
For a story that underwent so much purification to perfect it and make it as amazing as possible, and there are people are still unsatisfied with it, why add more bad writing to it? Why not just remove the parts that are controversial? Or if you want to revisit it through a different lens, why not try to reconstruct an alternate story with the non-canon material that has survived?
Surely a good writer can make Helen in Egypt plotline work if they want to, why don’t they challenge themselves with this? But I guess good writing and respect for the cultural context is something to expect from someone like Eggers not Nolan. Nolan is just there for visuals and no substance.
losdreamer50@reddit
Right, back in the day where gods walked the Earth, demigods did heroic deeds, witches turned sailors into pigs and everyone fought for a pretty princess...
Interesting times /s
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Technically speaking yes, fiction. But ancient Greek authors were based in real life and portrayed it like fiction. So there is a very big chance Helen was real, or was based in a real person. Greek gods are based in ancient Greek ethnos, they were still white no science fiction here.
losdreamer50@reddit
That means nothing. This is not a documentary exploring how these events could be real. It's a fictional movie made to entertain the masses (and make money because we live in capitalism).
Fearless-Lie-9363@reddit
Historical movie... bro give me what you smoke.
Dear_Wrongdoer7271@reddit
Like Iliad and Odyssey are historical books if you are Elena Pocaqi.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
They are based on true events and true people. The art of portraying them in such way is different thing. A lot of realism inside them is proven.
LoyalZebra@reddit
Eliza Dushku is the face.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Mythology isn't not Historical at all lol
samir_saritoglu@reddit
Maybe Greek mythology is about Greeks? There are Ethiopians in that mythology, even in Iliad. Why not be correct? Political bullshit once again
_pvilla@reddit
How is it political? You do know none these people are Greek, right? Not just Lupita.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Still doesn't make it historical because there is no evidence anything in the Odyssey happened. The only evidence we have even remotley related was archaeological evidence of a city of Troy in Turkey and the structures remains show multiple periods of building atop one another including one around the 13th Century BCE. Not political bullshit lol
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
I think you’re exaggerating. While mythology isn't a perfect record, archaeologists did find the city of Troy with clear signs of a war that took place around 1200 BC. They discovered that the city was burnt down (just like in the book) and found human remains showing people died a violent death. On top of that, we have Hittite documents (the Tawagalawa letter) from that exact period mentioning a conflict over a city called Wilusa, which is the Hittite name for Troy. I think that’s enough evidence.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
That's what I just said but that doesn't prove THIS TROJAN WAR HAPPENED.
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
Yes it does. That letter isn’t considered mythology. but does it even matter? It’s european culture. Why to alter it like that?
TheETERNAL20@reddit
It doesn't prove anything. Like I said all it proves was A city of Troy existed in the 1200s BCE and was burned to the ground by someone but there is no evidence Giants, Gods, Odysseus, Achilles, Helen, Paris and the others in the Odyssey as described in the Odyssey existed.
We know Agamemnon existed, a person named Achilles existed but we don't have any proof that says these are the same Agamenom and Achilles in the Odyssey. They aren't altering it. Dramatizing it more and shortening it? Sure but that's because it's a movie and Hollywood
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
I dare you to go on google and search for it.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
I have before. Sorry for not being a sheep and wanting more evidence to prove these events are real
samir_saritoglu@reddit
There is evidence that Iliad is a myth based on bronze age collapse events. Of course, the story changed a lot during the oral spreading. However, it's still about the concrete region and concrete people groups.
And woke shit is still a woke political shit. Why not completely revise the story and place it on the Senegal coast? The entire film about black people - that's good and that wouldn't be this controversial. The thing that the USA wants to pacify its longtime opressed black population is OK, but without economic changes that's ineffective and only disturb normal people of any race.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Buzzwords buzzwords. None of this is woke lmao. If it was in senegal with a full black cast yall would still melt down and cry. What does the US' oppression of Blacks have anything to do with this?
samir_saritoglu@reddit
No. I will say - OK, that's cool, and it could be talented. Just look at what Kurosawa did with Macbeth or Idiot (Dostoyevskiy) - that's a really good adaptations of a classical British and Russian stories to Japanese reality. There are a lot of other examples for such cases.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Then you're a hypocrite. If you're perfectly fine with a full black cast playing the Odyssey characters but not "White" and 1 black person that makes you a hypocrite and have double standards
Ian_Dess@reddit
Hmmm let’s find an african myth and film it with whie people playing it. No black people will have a problem with it since it’s not real, right?
TheETERNAL20@reddit
I mean they did that with Gods of Egypt lol. Tell me what proof do we have any God is real?
Serdar_Janko@reddit
Egyptians weren't black 😂😂😂
Plastic_Dog9972@reddit
yeah because such a dumb distinction didnt exist, but bro doesn know about the Kushites and the Nubians obviously
TheETERNAL20@reddit
You mentioned Africa in general and Southern Egypt has plenty of Black Egyptians. Egypt is in Africa no?
losdreamer50@reddit
That's been happening for ages, it's called white washing
Max_ach@reddit
Great then we'll be ok Jennifer Lawrence playing the african god of beauty - Oshun 😍
TheETERNAL20@reddit
I mean she's not really interested in anything Mythology so good luck convincing her or even Hollywood about African culture that isn't Egypt
Late_Secret3480@reddit
This is Errikos Sliman wife wearing Helens jewelery
Free-Consequence-164@reddit
It’s a myth?
Tardosaur@reddit
What? None of the characters in the screenshot are real people. Two of them aren't even human, they are goddesses.
TPGNutJam@reddit
I don’t think they look at just looks. When they do screenings they look and see who’s the best at acting or fits the style they’re looking for the best.
nicubunu@reddit
Then the style they are looking for is "totally unrelated to the movie's subject"
Puzzleheaded-Win9898@reddit
Thats correct in general but u have to admit that there is an agenda in hollywood to make the cast as diverse as possible
Adventurous-Sort-671@reddit
Agree. Menelaus would just be like no biggie and get another one 🥹
TheETERNAL20@reddit
That is very hard imo because beauty is subjective. Someone might say Nyong'o is far more attractive and beautiful than another dark skinned actress
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Helen's beauty standards are well written by the original author. And yes beauty standards are subjective but for the individual, in general for the most people they tend to be another thing, and the lady playing Helen isn't generally beautiful, she isn't ugly either but also not beautiful.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
They can be well written but that doesn't mean she is the most attractive because it's all subjective. It was said Cleopatra was the most attractive being the Goddess ISIS herself in human form.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
It's not subjective generally. In 10 people 2 might find it attractive other 8 will not. For most it's not. And Helen of Troy is portrayed to have soft clear skin. She was born in Sparta she was white, probably with a darker complex but white not Afro. This woke all inclusive bullshit makes me sick, we all have gotten very tired of this.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
It is subjective you just explained how beauty is subjective. She is not white because white is a racial term created to make the Anglos believe themselves superior. Greeks did not care about skin. Her being Black doesn't matter.
There is nothing woke or inclusive about a black woman being casted lmao. Who's we? You mean YOU and your racist buddies are sick and tired of others sharing your sams opinion. It's 2026 grow up
Serdar_Janko@reddit
Then get out, this is balkan sub. You will not find any woke here
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Why? Yall don't even know what woke means. You use it as a buzzword for anything you don't like.
Serdar_Janko@reddit
It means saying beauty is subjective while we all know it is not. You can't say this black women is prettier then let's say Margot Robbie?
TheETERNAL20@reddit
But it literally is everything is subjective. I mean you can because to some she is prettier but to others Margo is prettier. Again it's all subjective. I don't find either that attractive tbh. I find Ella Fanning more attractive than both hell even Alexandra Daddario and Anne Hatheway from her Dark Knight Rises appearance more attractive.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Generally people will have similar standards, it's well documented. She is beautiful, no denying that. Has a symmetrical face, small nose and ears, sharp face. I don't know what anglos did believe or not, and Greeks might not have believed in race or skin but they are white don't go around it.
We people, the majority. Racist and antisemitic accusations are getting our of hand lately. It's exactly 2026 clear up, white is white black is black. When you make a historical movie you should represent it properly. It's offensive not to. Black people wouldn't like a white Malcom X, a white Nelson Mandela, Denzel Washington said it perfectly, one of the brightest actors ever. It's culture, historical figures are better represented by same group of people and it's true.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
She is beautiful but not white as Greek woman.Homer doesn't described her beauty but he gave to her in one description the name "λευκωλενος"wich in ancient Greece is "The one with the white handstand the elders too.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Ok but that doesn't mean she was white. That could easily refer to the way she dressed or something on her
Late_Secret3480@reddit
No,they are specific. The light skin is a sign of elegance and λευκωλενος is specific. The one with white hands means white skin not clothes
Few-Interview-1996@reddit
True.
ketchupadmirer@reddit
well. that is the most obvious question, considering the material, great one
NorthHamza@reddit
I always imagined Athena older than all of these characters.
Joker_boy0412@reddit
Just cancel that shit
TheCharalampos@reddit
Nah just use Greek and Balkan actors.
virgincorpse@reddit
no one would watch LOL
TheCharalampos@reddit
I would 😭
Ill_Procedure_8714@reddit
I honestly dislike all of them expect Lupita.
Anne and Charlise have too modern faces, Zendaya, at least in what I saw, doesn't conjure the image of wisdom and might.
Lupita as Helen - perfect.
Halker93@reddit
To be honest, many white people played other races in their roles, either by blackface or just by white washing the character, like Jesus Christ from Passion. Even though I am white, I don’t really care if Helen of Troy is black because it is just a movie, and movies have no other value except entertaining us.
It is just amuzing to me how hypocritic white people can be and it reminds me of that video where someone says corruption is good if I am the corrupted one.
Ill_Procedure_8714@reddit
I honestly dislike all of them expect Lupita.
Anne and Charlise have too modern faces, Zendaya, at least in what I saw, doesn't conjure the image of wisdom and might.
Lupita as Helen - perfect.
JYanezez@reddit
Helen of Troy? Really?
Skip
Embarrassed_Ad1722@reddit
Zendaya cast in a movie because she's zip tied to Tom Holland again and as Athena of all. No chance.
gljivicad@reddit
🥱 people were complaining how the last of us ellie was an ugly actress and bad cast. she fucking nailed the role.
ChrundleTheGrea8@reddit
The bar is low with you bud. She was terrible in that show
gljivicad@reddit
You are entitled to your opinion. It does not mean that I value it though.
ChrundleTheGrea8@reddit
I don't think anyone values your opinion if you think she was good as Ellie.
gljivicad@reddit
Mmm you say that as if I’m the only person that has that opinion. As someone who played the games, I’m rather confident she did a fantastic job.
negidus@reddit
Will Odysseus and Hector bang?
Mobile_Blackberry298@reddit
I'm having Zendaya fatigue, there are other young actresses out there you know.
Ohh look another black washing!! How refreshing and empowering!
Haunting_G5159@reddit
They got Helen of Troy with Helot of Troy mixed up
PlasticPast5663@reddit
Lupita as Hellen is a big no-no.
When Brad Pitt as Black Panther or Jude Law as Martin Luther King ?
Left-Tree1592@reddit
They need them.. rules of Hollywood
GercektenGul@reddit
Actors?
PrizeSyntax@reddit
Diversity checkbox is what he means
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Source?
PrizeSyntax@reddit
Literally the Oscars
https://www.oscars.org/awards/representation-and-inclusion-standards
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
The Oscars aren't the be all end all for film. That link only shows the requirement for one award.
PrizeSyntax@reddit
Yeah, sorry, for the western cinema, the Oscars are, or maybe were, I don't follow them for some time now, the cream of the crop, for a very long time.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
The most important metrics are the box-office returns and critic scores. The Oscars are just supplementary considerations
PrizeSyntax@reddit
There have been a lot of franchises and IPS ruined into the ground because of, more broadly speaking, DEI policies and pandering to imaginary audiences pushing the so called "the message".
GercektenGul@reddit
Do you think non European people are imaginary?
PrizeSyntax@reddit
No, of course not. I was referring to the pandering to an audience with hires like this in projects like that, that is so small that is negligible, hence imaginary
GercektenGul@reddit
This may come as a shock to you but all of those non imaginary non European people also enjoy watching movies.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
"Broadly speaking", well I can't argue against something so vague, well done there! Broadly speaking, it's been bad writing and film production which has run franchises and IPS to the ground.
Well it either flops or doesn't flop, not a crazy prediction you can make either way
PrizeSyntax@reddit
I don't understand what you don't get, seriously. It's quite simple actually, don't push DEI, don't tick racist checkbooxes, don't pander to imaginary audiences and bullies, write a good story, that's it.
The current example, the story has been written 2 , maybe more, thousand years ago. You have to really try to fuck this up. Oh and yes, it will flop, trust me
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Do you have any proof that they had "racist" checkboxes? Or do you just not like the casting choices? You haven't proven that they didn't pick these actors based on their acting suitability for the role.
Just because a film's writing is bad doesn't mean it will flop. Just look at Transformers: Age of Extinction, terrible writing yet made over a billion dollars in the box office. Was that a flop?
PrizeSyntax@reddit
You do realize that looks play a crucial role in acting and story telling right? Otherwise there will be no casting, it will be, oh you can somewhat act, you get random role x, he can act, random role y etc. and you don't see a problem, when a character, has literally been described as blond and white skin, at most Mediterranean, for 2500 years and they cast a black woman? This is not against black actors, this is simply bad casting. Other than this I don't know what to tell you, if this doesn't get to you, nothing will.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Acting is acting. You're not always supposed to be the exact thing you're representing. You don't have to be a hunchback to play Richard III, so I don't understand why we should hold the same standard to race, especially for a character (Helen of Troy) that was never explicitly described as being of the white race, nor it being the defining characteristic for that character. Why don't we then have this film cast with only Greek/Turkish actors and actresses?
PrizeSyntax@reddit
There is nothing more I can ad to this, you can't teach common sense. All I can say is, refresh your Ancient Greek mythology.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Gotcha.
Anything else?
PrizeSyntax@reddit
No, you didn't get it
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
You didn't articulate yourself well enough nor made good enough points. I can keep going along this same topic and have you ignore my questions again, if you want?
Kitsooos@reddit
The scource is the damn casting of the movie.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
The claim is a checklist, i.e. something unnatural to how casting is normally done. Who's to say that the casting department didn't like someone's audition more than another person, irrespective of race?
PrizeSyntax@reddit
Here you go
https://www.oscars.org/awards/representation-and-inclusion-standards
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Keep going
Left-Tree1592@reddit
Leonardo DiCaprio is a great actor! Can’t wait to see him play Martin Luther King
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
If the film is in a documentary style then obviously the casting matters - since the defining characteristic is his skin colour, but if it's for an artistic reasoning then I see no problem (for instance, casting only black people to portray the founding fathers could actually work as an interesting artistic experiment on race relations in colonial America). Just like how RDJ played an Aussie doing blackface as a satirical critque on extreme method acting.
Important-Signal2222@reddit
So tired of Anna H
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
I have 0 issues with that. I mean, we are talking about fictional person who was fighting monsters and spoke with gods. One or two black actresses will do nothing to suspend my disbelief.
Thanakule@reddit
it's always funny to me how people complain over non white actors playing greeks, but they never complain about actors of northern european descent playing greeks.
Damon and Theron are somehow OK but Black actors is a sacrilege
Educational-Fun3513@reddit
DiVeRsItY
Creative-Local-3415@reddit
Ouf.
Natural_Scholar_1502@reddit
There really should be representation for the morbidly obese in this cast..
spRitE86--@reddit
not a fan of the blackwashing
virgincorpse@reddit
ignores the cast of germanics LOL
spRitE86--@reddit
Limits of artistic license? Germanics are white. Blacks are black. None of the characters in the Illiad are black. They are white/olive skinned. So even an Arab actor who looks european could still classify. But sub-saharan breaks immersion.
virgincorpse@reddit
mediterraneans weren’t considered white literally a few decades ago. but now germanics want claim to their beautiful culture. stfu with your pseudoscience. also lol at mentioning the iliad. memnon who literally nearly defeats a god and is deemed as one of the greatest men is black. your iq is showing.
spRitE86--@reddit
Penelope's arms are described as white in the Odyssey. And the images of the women in Minoan culture is as white. Achilles is described as blonde. Get educated. Memnon is mentioned IN PASSING in the illiad. he's not a main character. And if memnon shows up, he is allowed to be black in a movie. He's not though is he?
Adeptass@reddit
One day, we will show our grandkids these woke propaganda casts as unnatural, twisted, absurd signs of our age, the same as our grandparents showed us Nazi and Communist propaganda movies.
And on that day, our grandkids will ask us: "But how come you accepted this monstrosity? Didn't you see what was happening? Why did you let them compromise these stories?", the same as we asked our grandparents when they showed us the Nazi Titanic movie.
virgincorpse@reddit
i hope our grandchildren of the higher iq and can look past pigment and literal fiction.
Adeptass@reddit
Yes, and one day, they will say white when they see black. The more clever ones, of course.
Training-Soup-1123@reddit
Not even trying to be racist but really? Helen of Troy played by a black actress? That's like making a movie about Aboriginal Australians and having Scandinavian actors as the cast
virgincorpse@reddit
fascinating as the ancient greeks admired black people or ethiopians and literally called them sacred. within the first fucking page of the odyssey it mentions the ethiopians. i doubt you read however. the galaxy andromeda is an ethiopian princess. a whole galaxy lol. given you are a greek i thought you would understand this instead of being so bigoted. muhhhhh athena is a different pigment.
Training-Soup-1123@reddit
You're right. They did admire the Ethiopians. But if you want to go on the reading road, how about you read how Helen was described? Heck, even a look at the statues would probably tell you she wasn't depicted as black. They're clearly doing it for DEI. How about get actual Greeks for the film? And if you can't, make it so it at least looks like them. Like don't get me wrong she is a great actress but she simply doesn't fit that role
saritalodi@reddit
Absolutely ridiculous to cast Lupita as Helen of Troy. Almost makes me not want to watch it.
ChrisOnMission@reddit
Looks like complete shite, just like everything else I‘ve seen from this movie.
Avtsla@reddit
One of the dumbest decisions in recent movie making history .
I haven't seen the rest of the casting , but if this is anything to go by I expect to see Achilles played by Michael B. Jordan and Hector be played by Idris Elba ( or vice versa ) too.
virgincorpse@reddit
you’re from fucking bulgaria you can’t make this up. the economy of hollywood alone is more than your country’s gdp.
flyboi320@reddit
Black washing
virgincorpse@reddit
black people are the hegemony of the global culture. in the old world they were worshipped. and in modernity copied. perhaps stop coping lol.
pizzacuananas@reddit
Hollywood: Ok, whatever
virgincorpse@reddit
me when the pigment in a fictional story written by a man who admired black people is slightly dark. holy bots.
Actual_Aside_2862@reddit
Helen of Troy is a figure from Greek mythology, traditionally depicted in literature and art as a white-skinned, blonde-haired Spartan queen of Greek descent. As a mythological figure from circa 1200 BCE, modern concepts of race do not directly apply, though she is historically characterized as Mediterranean.
AdWonderful3621@reddit
Boycott Holiwood
PanicDry@reddit
It implies that Hector, Priam and Hecuba were black too. So it goes a bit farther than simply this.
kodial79@reddit
Either Zeus or Leda.
If Helen is black according to Nolan, then Pollux, Castor and Clytemnestra are also black. And Orestes, Electra and Iphigenia are half black.
losdreamer50@reddit
Gods can take any form they wish
PanicDry@reddit
Sure, the Greeks chose to depict their main guy as white, Zeus chose to sire black because he was concerned wth identity politics annd inclusion.
Origi30@reddit
This is just evil. No respect for our history, while you will never see a Shaka Zulu movie, starring gay Chinese/Asian actor on a wheelchair.
dogfish0306@reddit
MembershipPresent990@reddit
Kratos will avenge this!
klebermann@reddit
I'm so tired of seeing Zendaya in really badly fitting roles.
NeonFireFly969@reddit
Christina Hendricks would make a great Penelope.
Anywho all the cast is garbage. Possibly worst I've seen for big budget. Damon as Oddyseus is bad too.
Adventurous_Gain_995@reddit
Garbage. Anyone who says anything else is a racist and doesn't respect white history.
Competitive_Dare4898@reddit
I am greek and I think Hathaway and Theron are very good casts. I could see zendaya as a mermaid but not as Athena (in my head she is white and blonde). Helen feels extremely out of place of Odyssey
iswhhrxi@reddit
ZENDAYA AS ATHENA?! THAT'S SO RANDOM WTH!?
iswhhrxi@reddit
Anne Hathaway as Penelope is so random
and I KNOW everyone is gonna complain about Lupita lol
Ferrocept@reddit
Womens on the top - fine. At the bottom - trash
chaoservant@reddit
Needs more black people
babacandir@reddit
at least helen is still a woman
storman_sten@reddit
Aint nobody starting a fucking war for Lupita Nyong'o xD
GreenPeace3112@reddit
Woke.
Dull-Tea7112@reddit
Last 2 lol 😆
Training_War2279@reddit
Sub saharan African and northrean European cast for eastrean Mediterranean based people what a work
AnonMan695j@reddit
Greeks are not very white, but also not african. So both representation are historical inaccurate.
Nervous_Research_450@reddit
Shit
Rough-Adeptness3310@reddit
I thought this was a **** post at first
Rough-Adeptness3310@reddit
This cast could not get worse, Zendaya as Athena is diabolical😭
Amphilogia01@reddit
There will be a AI version where the specific woman will look different... more lore friendly.
Immediate_Safety_131@reddit
Fuck hollywood
RKaji@reddit
Poor Charlize, second time she's been in a production where "the most beautiful" is mentioned, yet she's passed and the most beautiful goes to another actress. And don't get me wrong, I love Lupita, but if she's Helen, then Charlize is Aphrodite.
gheorghios@reddit
They work great to fam the flames of the culture wars. In this thread, lots of people who suddenly give a fuck about greek culture
Opposite_Category_70@reddit
I can not wait to see a movie with a white Malcom X, or a white Aretha Franklin. :))) wtf 'merica.....you forgot an asian and a drag queen ....
OkAddition8946@reddit
“Then Iris went her way, and Helen left the fragrant chamber,
white-armed Helen, and went with her.”
Homer
8r3a71@reddit
I wonder when a blond girl with blue eyes will play a Zulu princess?
TotallyMario@reddit
Why did they cast a Turk to play Helen?
Erozbey@reddit
Helen was Turk.
Environmental_Drama3@reddit
oo kimleri görüyorum. nasılsın erozbey? usta şimdi helen of troy'u boş ver de sen barnz'dan bahset bana. fırat'la halen konuşuyor musun? arkadaşlığın devam ediyor mu?
Erozbey@reddit
epeydir haberleşmedik.
sorokii@reddit
Omg the turks are insufferable, those guys litterally came from the steppes in middle age and here they are claiming ancien European history, talk about some serious loser attitude 🤣
Erozbey@reddit
Dude, that was sarcasm. Also why should we care about your "ancient European" history? Our own history is good enough for us.
Lvd4aDrm@reddit
LMAO
Erozbey@reddit
I thought we were having a contest to see who talks more rubbish.
Kitsooos@reddit
Helenise Spartioglu.
thecartman85@reddit
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
cyrassil@reddit
now, that sounds like a comment that would launch a thousand ships
Intrepid_Walk_5150@reddit
Most Greeks have lot of Turkish DNA and vice versa + Slavic, Semitic and whoever has been around in the past couple of millennia. So, appart from stupid nationalist takes, there'd be no problem with it.
Blue88_wxz@reddit
There were no Turkish or Turkic people in Europe or in the region of present-day Turkey during ancient times.
Intrepid_Walk_5150@reddit
My point exactly. Today's Greeks are as far genetically to Homer's accheans than today's turk.
Blue88_wxz@reddit
Yes, this is true.
Informal_Motor1450@reddit
karaboga nyongo
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Lupita will play Calypso, not Helen.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Could care less as long as their acting is good and you can actually feel like Zendaya is Athena, Nyong'o is Helen etc I'm fine with it.
People need to understand this Mythology and not actual history. We have no evidence this Trojan War described in the Odyssey is remotely real.
And those who are upset at them not casting Greeks and Anatolians. Let me ask you this: Did you complain about Ridley Scotts Napoleon and Gladiator not havong Corsicans, Latins, Numibians Amazigh in those films? If you didn't what makes Odyssey different?
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
I am just curious. Have you ever read The Odyssey? According to mythology, Helen of Troy was a blonde. I am saying this because I read it as a teen and loved it, and I clearlyremember her description. The choice of actress is a bit shocking to me
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Been a hot minute but pretty sure she may have been brunette. It's not really shocking. Odd but again could care less about skin. Can they act the part is my concern if they can't act the part then she isn't a good fit. I don't think Zendaya is a gold fit for Athena, Zendayas acting is bland amd boring.
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
Well, this movie will be a passfor me.
I would expect a Nigerian princess in a movie to be dark-skinned, not white. So a movie like thay would also be a pass. But I know that you cannot reason with the unreasonable. I don't want to support this madness. At some point, this trend will fade out.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Cool no one cares about racists passing. In fact it's a good thing. What trend? Lmao
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
Wanting fidelity to the source material is not racism. However, switching a main character's skin color to please a specific segment of society and an ideology is racist and should be regarded as such
TheETERNAL20@reddit
But she's never described as white. Homer dies not describe her as white or any color. It's racist behavior because you're solely attacking her, not Zendaya. It's also racist assuming this has anything to do with appeasing the black community when they could care less about the Odyssey and a black actress in it. Are they happy black people are getting recognition? Yes but they could care less about the roles and movies.
Look at Coogler with Black Panther and Sinners, look at Black Singers, Morgan Freeman, Samuel Jackson etc
Yavannia@reddit
He describes her hands as white and her hair as blonde. This "he didn't describe her so she could be chinese" argument is really pathetic.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
No he doesn't. White armed doesn't automatically mean she is white. Her hair is being argued she may not have been blonde.
It's pathetic you guys are attacking a black woman over someone who didn't exist and was never described as white.
Yavannia@reddit
Oh yes he does.
What does he mean then? That her arms are blue?
Again so what did he mean with the word xanthi that they were black?
Of course she was described as such you are just too racist to see it and you see everything, even 3000 years ago, from the multicultural modern prism.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Her sleeves or clothing on her arms are white.
But she wasn't. Ah yes I'm totally racist. I'm not the one who's crying and attacking a black woman for being cast as a FICTIONAL CHARACTER WHO DOESN'T EXIST.
Yavannia@reddit
Yes right or she dyed herself blue and was a smurf very logical.
Mate you have over 30 comments on this thread I have 2, get some perspective over who is actually crying. Have some self-respect.
You have answered to so many people valiantly defending the casting that you even have no clue who you are replying to. Show me where exactly I attacked her, I haven't even mentioned her in my posts. Take a deep breath and take a break from the keyboard.
"I'm not the one who's crying " Just lol.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
I have a clue who I'm talking too.
So this isn't you then?
Yavannia@reddit
Yes where do I mention the actress there and where is the attack in that quoted text? You said I am attacking her. English competency doesn't seem that high in Canada it seems.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
English must shit over there if you can't see your entire comment was attacking her. Let's break it down.
Me: >It's pathetic you guys are attacking a black woman over someone who didn't exist and was never described as white.
You: >Of course she was described as such you are just too racist to see it and you see everything, even 3000 years ago, from the multicultural modern prism.
You are saying Helen is white in reaponse to me calling you out for attacking a Black Woman being casted as a fictional character.
You're saying that me defending black woman is racist because she isn't black.
Just blatant racist behavior.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
I have that because I'm defending a choice that is not a big deal meanwhile the entire comments including yourself are crying about a Black Woman being casted over a fictional character.
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
In the Iliad, she is explicitly described as 'white-armed' and 'fair-haired,' possessing the beauty of a goddess. It's clear you aren't familiar with the story. Probably you haven’t read any Greek mythology. I have no interest in debating with someone who ignores the actual facts and invents arguments to suit their own narrative.
Nirados@reddit
This is such a strawman western brainwashed argument lol
TheETERNAL20@reddit
You haven't disproven anything I said
Cold-Top-8616@reddit
lol
Turbulent-Ad1123@reddit
Hollywood wokeness
samir_saritoglu@reddit
This annoys me as a leftist. This woke shit is a discreditation of left ideas.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
"Woke" because actors are doing acting? No one is saying that Helen of Troy was originally depicted as black, only that an actress that is black is to act as the character.
This is ridiculousness on so many levels. This is an issue we solved hundreds of years ago for when females acted in male roles in theatre productions.
kodial79@reddit
If that happened only once in a while, no one would insist so much. But it's become common practice. And given the polarization and obsession of American society with what they perceive as minorities, you know it's not just an actor acting the part but a political statement on their behalf.
samir_saritoglu@reddit
This issue was solved in ancient Greece, where all female roles were acted by males 🙄
thecartman85@reddit
It's not woke. It's rage baiting. Money is the only thing that matters for hollowwood.
DrFrosthazer@reddit
Hollywood directors forget that the world isn't as diverse as NYC. Especially the world in 1000 BC.
ThickArt6492@reddit
Who cares.
mw2lmaa@reddit
Helen should clearly be played by an actress who - like Helen - hatched from an egg.
Everything else would be cultural appropriation and won't help to raise awareness for the egg-hatched community.
Pretend-Technician64@reddit
I'm surprised they didn't cast Pebelope Cruz for Penelope.
mw2lmaa@reddit
What a missed opportunity!
MynameIsGohan@reddit
Helen of troy has got to be blond tho
mw2lmaa@reddit
Now Circe is blonde
Darth-Atem@reddit
I won’t tolerate USA woke shit , fuck up my mythology/History
We are Greeks
Boycott period
mw2lmaa@reddit
Can't you just start some religious riots because they insulted your goddess and hurt your religious feelings?
IDMDC-31@reddit
No asian representation. Such bigotry.
mw2lmaa@reddit
But Troy is in Asia!
mrwhite14X@reddit
Can't wait till they reach WW2 timeline and cast the somali guy from Captain Philips as Churchill and some random lesbian paraplegic as Roosevelt.
mw2lmaa@reddit
Churchill and Roosevelt were real people though.
mw2lmaa@reddit
How dare they. We all know that the real goddess Athena looked totally different! I'm so angry about this inaccuracy.
beckstarlow@reddit
The casting is just modern Hollywood doing its thing. Feels less like an epic and more like a star vehicle at this point
ThimitrisApithanos@reddit
You put a man to play a man, a woman to play a woman, a black to play a black and a white to play a white. Anything else it's stupid. Greek mythology is part of greek history. It's not comics, it's not Avengers or Superman.
He could make a black superman or play with the history of its own country. He can make a black Kennedy.
This is so terrible that I can imagine only one reason why he did it. He was paid very well.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
I'm sorry but it's just called acting.
ThimitrisApithanos@reddit
No, this called a lie.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Is it not Greek history that men often played women in ancient theatre productions, or is that just some made up woke nonsense to you?
ThimitrisApithanos@reddit
It is. So what? This is made today. If you want to represent that then do it and follow the myth tale exactly as it told and also say a little things about this. No one will stop you.
Actually no one even stops you know, nut you want to force people to agree and like it.
Woke? I told nothing about woke. The fact that you say it yourself and you want to force us to like it means that it's indeed a woke thing and many people were paid for this propaganda.
losdreamer50@reddit
This is stupid. Homer is not a historian. Art is not limited ti mimic reality. It's fiction. Fantasy.
ThimitrisApithanos@reddit
Greek mythology as any other mythology is not by luck part of the history of each country because it shows how people were living and thinking, their culture, religion philosophy and many other things. These things must not be changed. Someone not familiar can beliece that Greeks believed that these goddesses were black and this is a lie.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
It's also Mythology and not real. Greeks back then if they were to look now would care less about skin.
Khalimdorh@reddit
North americans are so careful with cultural appropriation. That is, of course if it’s about non europeans. If it’s european anything is possible. This is part or greek culture and it should be respected.
Greeks back then despised every non greek calling them barbarians, but for sure wouldn’t care about skin color. North american arrogance is truly limitless
TheETERNAL20@reddit
US* Canadians, Mexicans, Cubans, Greenlanders, Hondurians etc could care less. They are being respectful.
Yes because skin is a European invention made by the Brits, French, German to make themselves superior to everyone else why do you think the US for the longest time did not call Irish, Italians, Spanards, Greeks as White? Speaking of "Arrogance" look in a mirror sometime European Arrogance is on par with American Arrogance
Khalimdorh@reddit
See, this is what I’m talking about. Obviously I was referring to the culturally north americans, not geographical. Canada and the usa. Obviously you are aware of this and try to act all smart, since when you mention europeans you also don’t mean the western kazakhstani people.
Don’t try to act like you are not the same as usa. You represent the same kind of self loathing white guilt culture and the same woke shit that usa does. Luckily honduras mexico and the rest that are geographically in north america didn’t lose their minds yet and would never think of representing greek culture with a black woman. Or try to defend that act. So they are cool
TheETERNAL20@reddit
We aren't any close to the same as the US but thnaks for constantly showing your racist attitude and ignorance. Hondurans and Mexicans don't care about Greek Mythology lmao. You're crying over a black woman being casted.
I'll ask you this if only Greeks can be allowed then that means the Romans misrepresented their culture?
Puzzleheaded_Use4735@reddit
This is why the right wing wins all over the West. How hard is it for your little woke brain to understand that casting a black person in the role of a greek goddess makes absolutely no sense? You have a billion other movies where you can cast black actors and no one gives a shit, why cast them here and piss off a lot of people? This is actually discriminating if you think about it, because we could have discovered a new greek star, but instead we got that stupid Zendaya again.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
The right wing is winning because the left fucked up and there is no such thing in Canada. There is nothing woke about me.
If no one gives a shit in any other movie why does it matter here? It is Mythology, PJO movies and show don't feature Greek Actors but I don't see yall attacking those actors.
It isn't even close to discrimination. Stop hiding behind Racism and buzzwords.
Puzzleheaded_Use4735@reddit
I don't even know what to say anymore...if I make a movie about Nelson Mandela or some african God or it is simply about some tribe in Africa, is it ok if him or the other characters to be played by some white dudes????
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Considering we've had like 2 movies of Mandela amd both were plaued by really good black People: Morgan Freeman and Idris Elba...your point fails spectacularly. And again this is Hollywood the most they know of Africa is Egypt and I don't see anyone complaining about the Mummy movies including the recent Horror one by Lee Cronin.
You try and make every excuse only to get disproven.
Puzzleheaded_Use4735@reddit
I don't understand how my point failed "spectacularly" when you confirmed that Hollywood decided to put black actors to play black characters which in my opinion is normal.
Excuse for what?
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Because you said Hollywood would choose a white guy to play him and I said that isn't true by pointing out he was played by 2 really famous Black Actors.
Excuse for being a Racist POS crying over a black woman and saying that Hollywood doesn't care about accuracy yet Shogun is 90% Japanese Actors with a few White actors, The Last Samurai is a mix between White and Japanese Actors, Brave an animated movie about Scotland has a mostly Scottish cast with a few Irish and Americans in the background acting.
The casting director chose these people for talent. If there's anything you should be critical about its can they act the part? If they can't make us believe Zendaya is Athena, Nyong'o is Helen, Matt Damon is Odysseus etc then obviously they should've continued the audition
Puzzleheaded_Use4735@reddit
No?
How is it racism? Explain.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
You said > if I make a movie about Nelson Mandela or some african God or it is simply about some tribe in Africa, is it ok if him or the other characters to be played by some white dudes????
You attacking a black woman for being casted to play a fictional person. You don't like the fact they casted a black person. You think Hollywood would cast white men to play famous Black People. That's racism.
Puzzleheaded_Use4735@reddit
I did not attack a black woman, I attacked the decision to put her there, it's a big difference. And the fact that the character is fictional doesn't matter at all, look up images of any fictional character and see how they are portrayed. That's what people grew up with in their culture and that's what people expect to see and there is nothing wrong with that. Why should we normalise throwing the dice to choose how the actor will look like for a role? It's absolutely false that looks (which include skin color) doesn't matter for the role. When you hire an actor you specify how exactly you want them to look like. You don't choose a grown ass white dude to play a little black kid, for example.
The fact that they casted a black person in a role they don't belong*. Just as I would be mad if they casted a white dude in the role of Mandela. That's what I said. I said "what if that would happen...would it be ok?".
TheETERNAL20@reddit
You are attacking a black woman for being casted in that role. We've normalized that for years lol. Romans did it when doing Greek Plays too. I don't see people attacking Joaquin Phoenix for playing Napoleon despite Napoleon being Corsican, I didn't see people attack Russel Crowe for playing Herman or Aurelius, I don't see people attacking Percy Jackson for casting a Scottish man as Poseidon nor a Black Man as Zeus. Why is it solely Nyong'o? Why not attack Zenday, Anne Hatheway, Tom Holland, Matt Damon? Why don't you guys attack Ubisoft for having Americans play an Italian? Or a Kenyan play a Egyptian why is it solely her?
And Hollywood hasn't and I've pointed out they have hired people of the movies origin like in Brave, Shogun, Last Samurai. Kpop Demon Hunters too
Khalimdorh@reddit
From the european perspective you 2 are identical. I know you try to act different and deny it. But you just kind of enforced my view with saying I am racist because in my opinion usa and canada has the same culture. Til canadians+united statians are a race. Anyone can play ancient greeks as long they pass looking like that. Blacks and east asians will not pass. Caucasians with white to brown skin color will so europeans+mena for example
Khalimdorh@reddit
“Skin is an invention”
Imagine living in this delusion. This is on par with sex/gender being an invention. Sometimes I feel a bit of pity for you north americans
TheETERNAL20@reddit
https://www.rd.com/article/concept-of-race/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8247429/
https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/who-started-racism/#:~:text=Racism%20is%20discrimination%20based%20on,%E2%80%9Crace%E2%80%9D%20to%20justify%20slavery.
sorokii@reddit
“European thinking themselves as superior are delusional” If you are so much superior to us, then why are u arguing here ? Go be superior somewhere else, at least the only culture my country have is not based on a sirup 😂
TheETERNAL20@reddit
I never said we were. I'm arguing here because you guys are crying over a Black Woman.
Funny how you don't know jack all about Canada because our culture is not based on Maple Syrup.
uniqueiscommon@reddit
Of course, more articles by North American authors from the dear american propaganda machine. Like the rest of the world should all follow your dogma. Europeans don't live in delusion. We know that facts are facts and have consequence, no matter what you try to push. It's understandable that you think this way because your nations are so young, you barely have any history or heritage to be proud of. You are the racist ones for trying to erase our culture and replace us. Btw, most people in rural Greece have never even seen a black person in the flesh, it's wild that you believe ancient Greeks would be ok with this even though they openly considered non-Greeks inferior. Again, unless you grew up in Greece, you don't know what mythology means to our culture and you shouldn't have such a strong opinion about it
TheETERNAL20@reddit
I mean Gender is a social invention lmao google it.
How is saying Skin color was a social invention made by Western Europe to elevate themselves as superior to others delusional??? It's a known fact they created it as a means to force their ways onto others.
ThimitrisApithanos@reddit
Greek mythology is not real stories, but part of greek history. It depicts the way of living and thinking, philosofy, religion and many other things. THESE THINGS CANNOT BE CHANGED
You believe that you know better than a Greek what they would want?Let's continue the discussion in greek since you are so close.
Oι Αρχαιοί Έλληνες νοιαζόντουσαν για την αλήθεια και ποτέ δε θα την αλλοίωναν. Εσύ με τις αλήθειες των δικών σου προγόνων ας κάνεις ότι θέλεις.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
And they're not being changed. They cared about THEIR truth.
uniqueiscommon@reddit
Even if they're mythological characters, mythology is a core integral part of Greek culture, throughout history. We are taught the Odyssey in school, line by line. The text is almost 3000 years old, 15 times as old as your nation. It isn't fiction in the way Spiderman is, it matters to us.
Hollywood wants to use it to make a profit, sure, no problem, we don't have the means to turn it into such a big blockbuster movie anyway. But at least be decent enough not to mix your politics into it. It's obvious they casted this lady just to appease a specific group of people, not because she was "the best" for the role, because you can't convince me there wasn't a remotely Greek-looking actress that could do an equally decent job. And yes, looks are important, because I doubt anyone who ever imagined Helen, imagined her as anything other than fair skinned (ancient Greeks are speculated to have been lighter than modern olive-skinned Greeks). It would be equally as dumb, cringe and performative to make a movie about Japanese folklore with white actors or Yoruba legends starring an asian protagonist.
Most Greeks I've spoken to dislike this, it's a mockery. Plus, Europeans have grown tired of this fake inclusivity and wokeness that's being forced down our throats by North America. Keep your problems to your continent.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Was integral and core to Greece but not so much anymore. They still respect and honor the old religion but they are Christians they are the descendants of Alexander, Leonidas, Augustus, Julius, Constantine etc. The text is older than every modern nation which are between 300 and like 10 years old.
What politics are they adding??? They didn't do it to appease any group if they did why aren't there Hispanics, Indigenous? They picked her for her acting not because of looks that's an archaic tradition that stopped holding merit when Actors and Actresses gave Hollywood the finger. Look at Adam Sandler, Jack Black and tell me if they give af about looks. I can because there no famous Greek Hollywood Actresses, the only one who remotely had a chance was Melina Kanakaredes but she hasn't done much for roles recently her last major role was 2010 with CSI: NY her last smaller scale role was 15 episodes in 2018s Residents. Have you watched the Last Samurai with Tom Cruise? A mix of white and Japanese actors and guess what Japanese love it.
Those you talk too yet majority DO NOT CARE BECAUSE IT'S A NON ISSUE. Most of Europe? Who tf you kidding, most of Europe again DOES NOT CARE ABOUT A NON ISSUE. Nothing is being forced down your throats and anything that is being forced down is by your own fault not the US. You using buzzwords doesn't make your point valid it shows a child crying about something incredibly stupid.
Yall cry about wokeness and how Hollywood doesn't care about accuracy yet Shogun exists has very few "White" actors is made of mostly Japanese actors. You have 12 years a slave, which has the main character played by a Balck Man, Invictus a story on Nelson Mandela whose played by a fellow Black Man and a good friend of his: Morgan Freeman, even recently you have Kpop Demom Hunters from Sony which has a mostly Korean or Korean descent cast, Brave has a Scottish and British cast with a few "Whites". If accuracy was truly something you wanted then you would've voiced your concerns with Napoleon, Gladiator, The Great, The King, etc
ThimitrisApithanos@reddit
Your words make no sense.
Yes, they are changed and they lie, they change the truth. Athena and Helen were not black.
You are here to start a fight. A canadian in a balkan sub who says he knows better than a Greek what his fathers would want! Ridiculus to the bone!
BreadyMFF12@reddit
For me Diane Kruger will forever be Helen of Troy. And I can guarantee you she wasn’t black, Greeks are closer to Germans than Africans in skin color. Otherwise it is fine. I would’ve liked Margot Robbie as Circe
El_Turco_Q@reddit
Zendaya can’t be a “pass” Helen of Troy is cursing out someone from her grave this is absolutely dumb in all contexts disrespect to Greek history
Zoshi2200@reddit
Where are the mediterranean women...
FelipeNova999@reddit
No Greek actors? Hmmmmm
Cefalopodul@reddit
This movie is going to be a skip for me. If they can't find a Greek actress to play Helen...
Tinenan@reddit
Realistically how many actual greek actors are big enough for a movie of this scale
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
Dunno, man. How many actors across the Narcos franchise were you familiar with prior to the series?
And the acting (in my honest opinion) was immeasurably better than any of these A listers’ entire careers.
I somehow doubt you couldn’t find a good actress in the whole Greece.
No_Abbreviations3943@reddit
Lol Narcos had a Brazilian actor play the Colombian Pablo Escobar. Ending up with a Pablo that struggles to speak Spanish and clearly doesn’t look like a Colombian.
Obviously you weren’t mad about that miscasting.
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
Somebody get this Einstein here a prize! 😂😂
Tinenan@reddit
Do you think big Hollywood productions hire actors because of talent and actual acting skills or because of brand recognition
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
Oh, yes. Miss, Nyong’o. I mean, sure. Brand recognition.
Remind me again, who last played Superman? What’s his name? Or Juliette? Some famous actress, to be sure. Ariel? I mean, all those movies I’ve seen her in. Anne Boleyn something?
You’ll have to excuse me, all that brand is messing with my recognition.
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
Next to anne, charlize and zendaya? All these beauriful Greek women, you mean?
😂😂😂
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
All of them are white-ish. Even Zendaya could just be a Greek woman that has had some more time under the sun, she 100% looks like she could be Greek - I am Greek.
Lupita is just .... black. For a 100% Greek woman. It's just immersion breaking and insulting. What if we put Brad Pitt to play Malcom X?
DryDatabase169@reddit
Marina Satti looks whiter then her and she's half black
Avtomati1k@reddit
most people wouldn't have a problem with marina satti playing her, thats the point. people are not against black people, but against misrepresentation of how characters are written to look
also, marina is not half black. she is half arab
Turbulent-Debate7661@reddit
Her father is black
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
He's not. He looks more like indian than an african black, he's Arab.
Turbulent-Debate7661@reddit
arab from sudan?
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
Yes ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudanese_Arabs
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
Marina Satti is not half black. Is half arab. Her father is not black.
DryDatabase169@reddit
Anyway they did the Hollywood thing again
FixLaudon@reddit
I read Marina Satti, I upvote. Simple as that, no matter the context.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
She looks absolutely 0 Greek. There isn’t a single Greek person that I have met in my entire life that even looks remotely like her. Idk what you are talking about tbh
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
I am Greek. I live in Greece. I see Greek people like 100% of my day. Ive seen people that look like her. I think I know what Greek looks like.
Ive seen 100% Greek people with natural tan who look like they come from dark parents and are 100% Greek. Not every Greek person looks like the majority.
casual_philosopher02@reddit
are we talking about the Romas that look like her? that's the only greek she can pass as. It is not the skin colour, it is the facial features. If I tan till I get her skin tone I would still have a greek face
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
No Im not talking about Romas. And why are you all talking about "Greek face"? Can you read the rest of the discussion? We're talking about Skin color.
Who the hell in Hollywood casts on "face"?
Wtf is this reddit thing going on, its two-three comments on a row talking about face structure as if actors gonna do a plastic surgery for you or director gonna go in Greece to seek for Greek actors.
They're Americans. In Hollywood. You think they're gonna start seeking for a "Greek cast" or for the most famous literally most American looking actors? Is the IQ in r/AskBalkans room temperature? We were talking about skin color because its easy to detect and there are variaties even in America.
casual_philosopher02@reddit
you said she could pass as a greek, you don't pass as an ethnicity based on skin colour, she is just a lightskin black looking woman. I didn't mention a Greek cast once, saying
makes 0 sense, if she was white like a Greek but Asian could she still pass? Trying to insult me won't make you smarter,αντί να μας την λες, μάθε να γράφεις αγγλικά καλύτερα
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
Yes you can, because we were talking about skin color
casual_philosopher02@reddit
yes based on skin colour even an Asian has the same skin colour, directors don't just see skin colour for diversity points, they see the whole look. So your original context doesn't stand
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
Lmao you think because of the tan she looks Greek?😂 maybe you just don’t pay attention to faces and mostly limit yourself to phenotype. She clearly has sub Saharan features, face shape, eyes and especially nose. Absolutely no Greek looks like that, I am Greek myself and lived most of my life there and go multiple times a year. Now I can also claim I know how they look to shut up others. Almost all fellow Greeks in the comments totally disagree with you. As would anyone who actually pays attention
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
> maybe you just don’t pay attention to faces
We're talking about skin color here, are you regarded or you just dont know how to follow a discussion and read the room?
Face structure is a mild inconvenience and can be overlooked visually. Skin color is blatant and obvious misscast.
SpiritedCatch1@reddit
Why Greek mythology figures need to look Greeks? Jesus looks white in most churches and he certainly wasn't.
ZedGenius@reddit
One mistake doesn't make the others fine. Just because Jesus was whitewashed (not by Hollywood, the church decided what his apperance was a few centuries after his time) doesn't mean racewashing is fine
SpiritedCatch1@reddit
I don't think race matters at all, I just want good actors.
Ironically, the ancient world didn't care about race at all. The Greeks wouldn't have thought about Zendaya or Lupita Nyong'o in racial terms, nor they would have call themselves "white". Racial categories is a modern phenomenon.
ZedGenius@reddit
Yeah I'm sure Ancient Greeks who called every non Greek a "barbarian" were very inclusive
SpiritedCatch1@reddit
Who said anything about being inclusive? They hated foreigners but weren't thinking in term of race.
SofiaStark3000@reddit
They would still not imagine Helen of Sparta looking like Lupita, even though Lupita is gorgeous. The fact that race wasn't a concept doesn't mean they wouldn't be laughing at this casting.
SpiritedCatch1@reddit
I never said they would.
But I don't think they would have used the same categories as today "she's black!". They wouldn't have thought that Charlize Theron would look Greek either. I don't know if they would have cared either way.
But modern audience think in broad racial categories and turn it into a culture war. I just want a good movie.
casual_philosopher02@reddit
yes because a wide flat African nose and almost slanted eyes are the most Greek facial characteristics ever
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
I agree that casting a black cleopatra, for example, is ridiculous.
My point was it ain’t about nationality, it’s about skin color.
gpapava@reddit
Does Zendaya have a contract to be in every movie or what?
Ordinary_Block_4131@reddit
Sux.
Exiled1989@reddit
Lol
Crazy_Rope_9025@reddit
Come on i think we are at a point where Brad Pitt can comfortably play LeBron James in a bio flick.
sonicc_boom@reddit
Lupita and Charlize make no sense
Ok_Requirement4352@reddit
i would like the statues instead of the actors
NiceOil1588@reddit
None of them look Mediterranean nor, nor Blacksean, nor Balkan nor Anatolian, nor Caucasian nor West Asian. All of them have got the mix Germanic looks and two of them is mix Sub Saharan.
Why it is a problem ? Myths and real history are directly related. At Late Roman era we could see similar faces as a result of slave trade but all these people would be labeled as slaves or families of common legionary soldiers and mercenaries who had no place at high society those days.
Accents at these style movies are even worse.
They should make movies about their own history, not other people's history.
JuryAdministrative59@reddit
What’s Mediterranian and Balkan to you? Many of them look Northern European, but not with the same percentage that are cast in Hollywood movies. (For example there are many reports of how Alexander the Great looked.) Also people have changed and migrated since 3000 ago. I think Gerald Buttler was great in 300 as Leonidas, and I gotta say I didn’t have much problem with the Rock being Hercules(even tho the movie was kinda bad)
I think the casting of Anne Hathaway as Penelope is fine, the rest well… it’s just Hollywood of past few years 🤷♂️
NiceOil1588@reddit
Mediterranean certainly doesnt look Northern/Germanic. Speaking as a person from Northern side of Mediterranean.
ScratchLumpy3815@reddit
In these cases i just skip
Silly_Mustache@reddit
"muh mythological character is not white"
if i was a black actor auditioning for a role, and i was told i cannot play a fictional character because that fictional character was created by people of other color thousands of years in the past id be fucking pissed, don't know about you fellas
PanicDry@reddit
Then you have a problem of entitlement. If I was going to portray Baron Samedi as a white man, I can promise you that everyone would be pissed too.
Silly_Mustache@reddit
Samedi is a deity people still believe in, europeans portrayed jesus as white (he's palestinian, guess what colour he really was and what hair he really had) and you got no problem with that?
PanicDry@reddit
Yes, I'm literally saying that black people shouldn't portray certain characters. You make it because it would hurt my feelings, that's what you pinn on me. That's not why I say this however. It breaks my immersion and my ability to take whatever is made seriously as a history teacher.
vaguraw@reddit
You do make a point but are something is missing imho.
What black people need are not to be able to play any white character. What is needed is strong black characters. Original or based on mythos.
Same goes for women. No, female ghost basters was not feminist, it was more sexist than anything.
I don't like the casting because it rubs me the wrong way. Yes I get the arguments and yours. The being fictional part is a stupid argument imho. This tale is a part of Greek legacy. We study the story at school, it is not Mickey Mouse. But you wouldn't expect Americans to get that.
I also am not convinced that he didn't make the choices on a shock/legacy factor. The director that made Helen of troy black. Noone else had the guts. Kind of rubbing one off in front of the mirror.
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
I don't know, dude… I wouldn't even try to audition for a role that represents another race or someone who doesn't look at all like me.
Silly_Mustache@reddit
most roles in USA/EU culture are white, are black actors supposed to just fuck off or something?
lots of productions these days take historical events or old works (like the lotr "controversy" with the black elf)
i think people have not thought through at all what they're suggesting and won't even imagine what it would be like if you were told, for example, a romanian, "you can't play an english role cause you're romanian" and you were kicked out of a production
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
No, but they could promote their own culture. Just like everybody else does. And I know for a fact that many african cultures have beautiful stories that could be made into movies.
Silly_Mustache@reddit
how are they supposed to do that when the production teams have no interest in promoting such culture and even when they do people still cry "fucking DEI"? we had a lot of productions featuring more black culture and they got fucking slammed online
people are just fucking mad at media at this point cause they are too afraid to be mad at the political scene
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
Oh come on … Black culture is very promoted, especially through music. I would say that, compared to their numbers in the USA, they are definitely overrepresented at least in music business. But it doesn’t matter. As long as they make interesting and quality content. Many black communities have very fascinating cultures, they should focus on that. Some even try to find their true “origins” to learn more about their heritage. I am pretty sure we will see a boom in the future, because fortunately many of them are aware of this potential.
Going back to this movie. What exactly is the purpose of portraying a white European character, who is very well known and loved in Europe, with a dark-skinned actress? What’s the purpose of it? Do they feel like taking over the “oppressor” culture somehow empowers them? It’s definitely black washing and doesn’t acknowledge some historical facts … that fair hair and fair skin were the standard of beauty in many European and even Asian cultures at that time (and it still is - see India, China, Japan etc). It’s not racist, it’s just how it was. However, I decided that I prefer reading the books and imagining it myself rather than seeing bad movies… and before calling me a racist, I didn’t like the musical Les Misérables either for not respecting the storyline.
SandBoringBox@reddit
That's like a woman actor getting mad that she can't play the role of Rambo or something shit because she's the opposite gender wtf are you on?
Silly_Mustache@reddit
rambo's role is SPECIFICALLY male cause the whole role is about a man left behind in vietnam, you know, a real event (the vietnam war), and many men were left behind both physically and mentally
i don't see ANYTHING particularly "white" about helen in any way or form, cause "whiteness" was not even a fucking thing back then cause people were not separating themselves by the basis of colour but by allegiance to their kings
SandBoringBox@reddit
Δεν ξέρω τι είναι χειρότερο ότι πετάς βλακείες ή ότι λες πως είσαι Έλληνας?
Silly_Mustache@reddit
μικρε αστο, ανοιξε κανα βιβλιο πρωτα και μαθε 2-3 πραγματα για το πως λειτουργουσαν ιστορικα τα πραγματα απο το 2000 πχ μεχρι και σχεδον τον 16ο αιωνα γιατι τα ελληνικα σχολεια δεν κανουν καλη δουλεια
αν εσυ νομιζεις οτι η πολιτικη διαχωριση γινοταν με βαση τα "εθνη" "εθνικοτητες" ή "φυλες" πριν τον 15ο αιωνα, η πιτσιρικι εισαι η κανας χαζουλης ακρο-δεξιος
ο κοσμος ηταν αυτοκρατοριες, και αυτο που διαχωριζε τον ανθρωπο α απτον ανθρωπο β ηταν η θρησκεια και η αυτοκρατορια που ανηκε, αλλωστε γιαυτο σπαρτη/αθηνα της επαιζαν συνεχεια παρα το γεγονος οτι τους λεμε και τους δυο "ελληνες" και λεμε ηταν "εμφυλιακο" ζητημα, αυτα ειναι μαλακιες για να βγαζει νοημα στο κεφαλι του κοσμου οτι 2 διαφορετικες πολεις με διαφορετικους αρχοντες ΠΟΛΕΜΟΥΣΑΝ ξανα και ξανα, οπως και η μακεδονικη αυτοκρατορια που κατεκτησε ολη την νοτια ελλαδα
ανοιξτε κανα βιβλιο γιατι κουρασατε
SandBoringBox@reddit
Οι φίλε άμα τα λες εσύ προφανώς κάτι ξέρεις όλα τα άλλα σχόλια εδώ μαλακισμένα είναι μόνο εσύ ξέρεις
No_Mushroom_3966@reddit
3 strong mature women and Zendaya looking like a brat 😂
kodial79@reddit
I would have preferred a Mediterranean cast. Seriously though, I dislike everything that I have seen about this movie so far. Not just the casting, literally everything. If I started writing down here every thing that I disliked about what has been revealed so far, a single comment would not be enough. This might as well become the worst movie ever made for me.
Mundane_Mix_6556@reddit
sure but this would happen if only they wanted make a good movie, they just want to make money 💰
kodial79@reddit
I guess Americans love that shit
Agreeable_Simple_690@reddit
This is what pisses me off the most about this; they're applying American race politics to the rest of the world. This is Greece, not the USA, none of their race relations apply to it, yet they argue as if they have ownership over it (as well as Egyptian mythology amongst others). They didn't even bother with the cast, just picked some of the biggest working names in Hollywood and rolled with it. They could have bothered and put in a little bit of effort casting newer actors, yet they didn't, there are suddenly no working Greek, Mediterranean or even Latin American actors available. The English in movies like these also feels like roleplay to me but that's another point entirely.
Mundane_Mix_6556@reddit
controversy will definitely lure more people to the cinema than simply “quality”. High quality is hard to achieve… so they choose the easy less risky road, to get paid.
kodial79@reddit
I thought Nolan was beyond such cheap tricks but I guess I was wrong.
BicycleSpiritual1048@reddit
I agree. Taking one of the strongest cultural moments of Greece, heritage and putting random black people there, holywood actors without any connection to greece, viking ship etc. Horrible horrible.
kodial79@reddit
Don't forget the pants! LMAO What the hell were they thinking? I wonder what's next? Seeing them eat potatoes at a feast??
LoyalZebra@reddit
I agree. Anyone who has travelled a bit can recognize women from Southern Europe vs Northern Europe and other parts of the world.
sissi4hell@reddit
In general, maybe. Sometimes it is not that easy. My family is example. I am northern spaniard descent, and even the most of us have dark hair and light eyes, we also have blonde and even redheads.Our facial features are even more "whiter" than even Germans And Swedes.
ANON_USER_117@reddit
this looks good i js dont see athena as zendaya yk she doesnt seem to look at all like how the statues and stories describe
Sashpeto@reddit
I won't watch it all.i don't care .
It's pretty much how it goes for me with most modern shows and movies .
They don't respect the content so I won't waste my time watching it
Topias12@reddit
let us be real people, none will go for a decade long war to bring back Lupita
Sensitive-Phrase-185@reddit
What a disgrace. So racist against European culture.
Incha8@reddit
idk, zendaya serms so out of place.
2Pickles1Rick@reddit
I'm just tired of Hollywood distorting world history to fit American narratives. Helen being African is the same level of inaccuracy and stupidity as Shaka Zulu being Chinese.
White-Cat-Jeff@reddit
Tbf no one looks Greek here. Anne looks like a rich NYC woman, and Charlize looks about as Greek as Lupita does (which is not at all)
Rami-961@reddit
Zendaya would have made a better Artemis. She looks too young for Athena.
thecartman85@reddit
Can we stop falling for holiewoods ragebait? I won't watch this crap. You can not watch it too. We have actual problems to deal with, like the insane price of oil.
Haunting-Watch8240@reddit
I think Nolan should take a walk in Greece.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit
It makes things less immersive, it's just annoying
SureX6661@reddit
Oh come on. Do you need a disclaimer that youre watching a movie everytime you sit down and fire up netflix?
We dont even know if Homer even lived and youre talking about immersion.
morknox@reddit
One can be immersed and not immersed in a fictional story.
The starbucks cup in that Game of Thrones scene took people out of the immersion. Yet people fully understand that Game of Thrones is 100% fictional.
SureX6661@reddit
I get that. I watch wrestling, so suspension of disbelief really isn't a problem.
We're talking about gods, fictional persons that may or may not have existed, connected to said gods, etc.
If you want a Hollywood produced epic about the Odyssey, you're gonna have american actors. And if you would like to be "historically accurate", then they all would have yellow teeth, unkempt body hair, and all the other shit the modern society thinks "being pretty" entails. I have 0 problem with Zendaya being Athena
morknox@reddit
I'm not saying it needs to be 100% historically accurate (that is impossible, and not just because its a fictional story, it would be impossible even if they told a historical story).
But for this movie they didnt even slightly try. And its not just about the cast, its also the armors, the boats, the buildings, etc.
I just like when movies pay attention to detail. The new shogun show is my favorite series. They pay mad attention to historical detail, even things that 99% of people won't even notice they made sure to be as accurate as they could make it.
And that is not a historical movie either. Its 'historical fiction' based on real history, but it is not real history. So they could have just went "well, its not real history anyway, why do we need to go through the extra steps to have the spoken japanese be medieval japanese instead of modern japanese?". But they didnt do that, which is one of many reasons i was so extremely immersed in that show.
SureX6661@reddit
See, if you went with the boats and armour, I would've agreed with you. I do agree with you actually. I'm also feeling like the world building seems a bit lacking from the trailers.
But this thread was about casting, so I focused on that. Turns out we agree.
BicycleSpiritual1048@reddit
Homer lived what are you talking about? Iliad could be influenced by multiple people, but thats it. Would you say same about Quaran or Bible?
SureX6661@reddit
'The main subtopics of the Homeric Question are:
And to answer your other question, yea I wouldn't really give a shit if Jesus was black (he was definitely darker skinned) or Mohammed was portrayed by an asian actor.
Animewatts1@reddit
Need to have gravitas to do Athena. I don't think Zendaya has that in her. I think as others had mentioned because of her age more than anything.
open_mind3d@reddit
Woke shit that I will gladly skip. To take my favorite child story and turn it into this abomination is just too much for me
Alone-Monk@reddit
I could not care less
Gsauce65@reddit
Swap zendaya for Lupita and it’s a bit better but otherwise Hollywood slop
depgen101@reddit
Remember when Hollywood made "Romeo and Juliet" with DiCaprio as Romeo and a black guy as Mecutio and there were sport cars and guns and rap songs?
Yeah, you can say it's something like that, an artsy reinterpretation. A film made by Hollywood for people that like Hollywood made films. You don't have to like it, you don't have to watch it. If you're upset by this, imagine how upset you would be if you found the version made by Bollywood!
And what's this thing for accuracy? It's an artistic film, not a documentary! Even movies "based on real events" have lots of details changed to make them more interesting.
bobo6u89@reddit
Can they hire some other women from the street to play women?
WielderOfTheStick@reddit
Zendeya looks way too young to play Athena
Chillforlife@reddit
Why are there nlggers
snitsny@reddit
Greeks should sue them. )
CaptainRice6@reddit
To be eligible for Oscars you need to have some amount of minority representation(American Minorities of course). Some of the lead actors should be minorities too. So when the biggest award ceremony puts these kind of rules, no accomplished director with the possiblity of winning Oscars would forego the chance. I don't know about Nolan's personal opinions but it was expected from a big production like this.
morknox@reddit
Not entirely true.
"Films must meet at least two of four standards (A, B, C, D)"
A; At least one lead/significant supporting actor is from an underrepresented group
B: At least two creative leadership/department head positions are filled by underrepresented groups
C: Focus on paid internships/apprenticeships for underrepresented groups
D: Diversity in marketing/distribution teams.
So a movie can have no minorities on screen, if they have minorities behind-the-scenes. Its still a stupid criteria though. Who made the movie shouldnt matter on wheter or not the movie wins an award.
ApartCarob11@reddit
Shitt ....we need only white people ,we are europeans. Fck USA
Carefully_69@reddit
Gonna skip this one because zendaya's acting is ass
Affectionate_Dark701@reddit
Eew
RemoDev@reddit
Why is Zendaya everywhere? She's an ok actress, don't get me wrong, but what's so special about her?
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
Let Greece make a movie about us culture and make them rage bait
BicycleSpiritual1048@reddit
Some school shootings and shit.
Empty-Assistance-375@reddit
I would prefer for Helen to be played by a Greek actress. I would probably go for Klelia Andriolatou. Also, I think, portraying Helen as a black woman (and don't get me wrong, Lupita is gorgeous) is a bit of a stretch especially when taking into account that Homer has described her as "λευκώλενος Ελένη" which translates to "Helen with the white hands". Other than that, it doesn't really matter, I will watch it anyway.
BicycleSpiritual1048@reddit
I agree. Klelia would be amazing, and best cast for Helen. She was supposed to be so beautiful that wars started because of her. Thats the point. For Lupita i can imagine stealing from the shop .
never_nick@reddit
Are there any Greek actors in the movie? Representation be damned
ya_pidoras_@reddit
the main issue with this movie is not the casting, it’s the insane amount of bullshit historical inaccuracies, like the armor being completely wrong and viking ships being used
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
Please refer to other 1000 threads on this topic. In brief the problem with Lupita is not that she is black but that she is not otherworldly beautiful like the woman who caused the equivalent of Aegean World War.
That said, Helen of Troy has a really minor role in the Odyasey, which of course doesnt stop illiterate American rightwingers from shedding crocodile tears over Hollywood wokeness. She ll have like a minute of screen time in what will be Nolans standard 180 mins plus.
Also, conaider that the bigger prpblem is that we treat hellenic myths as global, but not say igbo or yoruba ones. I dont know how no one gets that in Hollywood. But I love Hellenic myths so I dont mind.
Jujux@reddit
Are people still watching American slop in 2026?
Spaciax@reddit
no shade but why is zendaya cast in like every big name movie in recent memory? similar situation with pedro pascal
TheFlyingBadman@reddit
Not enough Blacks and Asians. Need more. Athena should also be disabled for better rep. /s
Phunwithscissors@reddit
He prolly read that dogshit Black Athena book
UltraSpeci@reddit
Helen of Troy - Black. I'll pass
Mean_Build@reddit
Zendaya is ok
MindDivergence@reddit
Since when is Troy in Africa?
vitusmaximus@reddit
Ridiculous
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
Christopher Nolan is the most overrated filmmaker in history and this movie will finally stop the dickriding madness.
bubulika@reddit
If you care about nolan movies you are stupid
mahmout506@reddit
To represent Greek they took anything but Greek look like people
Bari_Baqors@reddit
Another woke movie…
Nope, no way, nah-ah! Ain't watchin' it.
Raven185@reddit
God, who cares?
Scuipici@reddit
bad casting, all of them. I would've searched for talented mediteranean actors, similar to what they did for Cristoph Waltz in inglorious bastards.
buzzysmoke@reddit
Cultural prostitutes....
McAlkis@reddit
Let Nolan cook.
frambr@reddit
I get the whole diversity/representation thing, but why is a Trojan princess black? I don’t mind black gods/goddesses (greeks gods technically aren’t ethnically Greek). But in period dramas/epics, why can’t we portray an ethnic group using members of the same ethnic group
fatbunyip@reddit
I don't now anything about the movie, but I think it would depend on what kind of movie it portrays itself to be.
Like if it's supposed to be a retelling/reimagining/based on the Odyssey then sure, do whatever casting you want. But if it's supposed to be a film faithful to the original material then obviously there can be some questions asked.
krsCarrots@reddit
I mean Helen is controversial. But Z as athena is even wilder. Athena is the goddess of war, Z is built up like a 13 y old fragile girl not sure physically it sends any message
Cool_Relative7359@reddit
Goddess of wisdom and strategic war, handicrafts and reason. Strategy and tactics were her domain as far as war went.
Ares was the god of war, his was the actual battlefield, brutality and physical prowess.
So tha one isn't that much of an issue, for je personally, TBH. You don't need physical size to be a great strategist.
krsCarrots@reddit
I agree but all Athenas statues Ive seen are of a formidable woman not a kid :)
Cool_Relative7359@reddit
Formidable is a personality trait. And the statues aren't want I would call muscle. The armour makes her look imposing.
And Zendaya is 29 years old and 1.78m tall.
Even in Hellenistic Greece the average for men was between 1.62-1.72m
She'd have been taller than most men back then
krsCarrots@reddit
Theron is the better cast imho
CasperGwamm@reddit
That's a 'no' from me, dawg.
tompa_zg@reddit
I'm a sucker for anything ancient Greek, but will be giving this a wide berth.
QuarianGuy@reddit
Another "We are not racist we swear!" Slop from Hollywood.
Inclusivity at the expense of another culture. As always these actresses will take the brunt of the hatred and criticism for the studio's laziness, internet drama will happen, marketing department will sell it as "Free Advertising", Studio suits will pat themselves on the back and then fire 1000 employees when it turns out mad people don't come to watch your movie because hate watching is dead in this run down economy.
Grifters will make videos, calling it woke trash. Counter Grifters will call them racist and sexist. And a few months later some YouTuber will make a video about why the movie failed.
Same old, same old, I am tired.
AdministrationDue153@reddit
This is cultural appropriation: this cast is all-american, no woman gives a greek vibe. They did not even try.
azra_85@reddit
People from Anglosphere will never understand how we feel about this. I am not Greek but Slavic and for me this would be equivalent of making movie about Slavic myth about Slavic gods and goddesses with cast of black people. For them it would be interpretationmof Perun being played by black actor (or actress, I remember in recent Dune movie similar switch with Liet-Kynes becoming female). From my POV is ridiculous and funny. No Slavic person would ever consider Perun black and would consider such movie representative of our culture.
But, sometimes movie is actually fanfiction of actual play/novel/myth/source material. Names are the same, there is some loose connection to the plot of original source material, and that's all. Like, for instance Guy's Ritchie king Arthur: Legend of Sword. Source material is Welsh folklore about guy who fights enemies in post roman Britain, but most of what we consider canonical part of his story (his father, Excalibur, Merlin, Tintagel, later on Lancelot and Holy Grail) is made up in 12th century. In Guy's Ritchie movie the names are there, places are there, it loosely follows the original plot from 12th century and that's all. It's form of fanfiction from my POV - you can call it interpretation if you would like.
I hate when moviemakers try to persuade me that their interpretation is not interpretation at all, that it should be seen as "true to source material". Or their PR is trying that, I don't know. Say that you made interpretation based loosely on Odyssey - great, I could find it amusing. Trying to made me see it as true to source material by disregarding source material is insulting to my intelligence.
Positive_Force_3224@reddit
The problem is not skin color, but internal consistency. You can just show a short scene that establishes that gods can shapeshift or some such. Helen of Troy could be black if it makes sense. Is her mother, the Queen of Sparta Black? Was Zeus in a black body when he seduced Leda?
The problem is that Hollywood produces mostly propaganda slop that is just condescending, unpopular and most of time badly written. They could get away with a lot more crap if they had well written ORIGINAL stories and rehashing the same stuff every decade.
MaskedMissMadness@reddit
While I believe these women are beautiful and great actresses, this should have been greek people casting.
hummingroots@reddit
I don't like Zendaya as Athena. I always imagined Athena as an older woman. Zendaya looks to much like a teenager (which I know she's not, but she still looks too youthful for the role IMO)
oxingames@reddit
They don't look Greek or midditerenean at all. Especiallly Helen, like cmon. But it's not like its supposed to be a faithful adaption or something, it's just the American version of the story so what did I expect
WhoYaTalkinTo@reddit
What is legitimately the purpose of this type of egregious casting?
AffectionateCoat308@reddit
I dig
Foreskin_Ad9356@reddit
Lmfao
PuzzleheadedBag920@reddit
"Alright boys we going back, Menelaus was tripping for real, after the sea journey he realized that's not his wife"
J0hnnyBlazer@reddit
b*tch looks like she from the island of coco jambo in the deep jungle of nigeria, This like casting samuel l jackson to play bruce lee
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
First two are good.
Zendaya is iffy but depends on how she plays it. However her acting ability in general is not encouraging.
Then Lupita... now I really like her and I think she is a great actress but really, casting her as Helen of Troy feeling like actual pre-meditated rage bait.
Like I can see the incel racists coming already and I can see the counter attack against them. Seems just so manufactured.
iamdanchiv@reddit
I can already see Critical Drinker and Disparu milking this disaster. Black Helen of Troy, lmfao...
Guess we haven't learned anything from that Cleopatra Hollywood revisionist history attempt.
nindza-22@reddit
Boring and generic.
Mehehelu@reddit
Not going to see that shit.
RestaurantBoring417@reddit
Cringe, there is a massive pool of beautiful actresses from Greece or the med region in general who could play these rolls instead, but for some reason they either go for black or anglo-saxon actresses instead.
KeroseneSkies@reddit
I genuinely wish they would use a cast of Greek actresses or at least people of the Balkans/the area. I know they think they need to cast only massive actors but it really makes things strange. Also I agree with someone else’s comment that Zendaya looks very young for the role of Athena so I’m unsure about that
Marrys501@reddit
How to stop racism?
With more racism!!!
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
For a fairy story, not bad. Would watch.
Tsantakis@reddit
Greek here, I am excited to watch the movie regardless. It's art, it does not have to be accurate. Who cares if the actor playing the role is not Greek, Troy was an excellent movie even though it changed many things from the source material and also did not feature any Greek actors. Let's watch the movie first and judge it after.
PrimeGGWP@reddit
just what the fuck, that's all I see. Orban would make a better fit as Helen of Troy
SureX6661@reddit
Um, I dont give a shit?
Are they gonna cast a Cyclops to play a cyclops? Its a legend. A myth. It transcends race.
crazymaryrocks@reddit
The entire cast, not just the women, is wrong imo. Especially considering the plethora of AMAZING Greek actors and actresses that could have been hired instead to bring this story to life.
I don't care about their skin colour/their features in and of themselves because Greeks are a very diverse ethnic group. I do care about the fact that there isn't a single ethnically Greek person in the cast.
spaceninj@reddit
I like all 4 of them, but their roles should be swapped.
Charlize should be Helen.
Lupita should be Circe
Zendaya should be Penelope
Anne should be Athena.
Economy-Movie-4500@reddit
Would have been nice to cast greeks but oh well. I don't care if there's black actors, I care that it looks like slop
the_TIGEEER@reddit
When you have all the actors possible available with an infinite virtualy budget, you have to deliberately choose the one to act as Helen of troy that isn't at all like she was described as for thousands of years. Meaning you deliberately chose her for her skin color to satisfy some diversity fantasy instead of the thousands of other choices. Who is racist then?
petRhastQeug@reddit
Zendeya 😑😑😑 fatigue is real
gloec@reddit
Clearly, Nolan is aiming for Oscar nominations, so he couldn’t do otherwise since having actors from minorities in the casting is a rigid clause. As simple as that… I like it? No, but who cares? Their shop, their decisions, their success or their failure… Is it against the Greek culture or history? Probably yes… I am Greek and I have been raised, educated in this culture. If I would be from let’s say, US, I would definitely have a completely different view and perspective on this and it wouldn’t make any difference to me.
Difficult-Essay7109@reddit
I was so hyped for this movie, now ill maybe see it if its on tv in 5 years or so and i dont have anything else to do
PearsonR52@reddit
I didn’t know Ancient Greeks were sub Saharan Africans?
Adventurous-Hat4190@reddit
Just cast Gal Gadot as Athena and Katherine Zeta Jones as Helen
haikusbot@reddit
Just cast Gal Gadot as
Athena and Katherine
Zeta Jones as Helen
- Adventurous-Hat4190
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^Learn more about me.
^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
zoewithalab@reddit
Get someone Greek for the roles, I hate forced diversity shit like that I’ll skip.
3IO3OI3@reddit
Zendaya as Athena doesn't make any sense to me. It has to be an older looking woman, no? I mean, just visually speaking. And by older I mean like 40s or something.
smiley_but_not_happy@reddit
Other than Hathaway I don’t think they can carry the character.
Infamous-Farmer612@reddit
Black greeks.. yeah
Adventurous_Bite9287@reddit
Comments summorized: Oh no a black woman. Yall can cringe all you want. It will release and millions are gonna watch it and they will like it and will make profit. Crying on the internet wont change that.
baldas_23@reddit
Opening song should be a K-Pop.
Random bullshit go BRRRRRRR
smiley_but_not_happy@reddit
Other than Hathaway it just seems it will suck
Kael-Levitarius@reddit
rage bait
HolyCrispyCookie@reddit
I'm proud of you guys. Thanks for being very up to the point on the topic.
VerticalBird@reddit
This is just Hollywood rage bait. There’s no such thing as bad publicity. 😆
Neat_Selection3644@reddit
I don’t care.
Ariya_t_98@reddit
Why is Zendaya in everything???
Fair-Confection4411@reddit
I think top three are good.
Busy-Sheepherder7515@reddit
no war would be started over this helen of troy
MarcelPappas@reddit
Helen of Troy was from the same lineage as Alexander the Great. She was blonde and her beauty rivaled that of goddesses. Now about that...
Inside-Reading1915@reddit
Penelope is ok but lazy,circe I like,and I lowk have a bigger problem with zendaya then lupita.Lupita could pass if we made helen in a parallel universe,but zendaya as athena isn't passing in any scenario
cetrebe@reddit
greek actors maybe?
american-washing again
Its_Gerryz@reddit
Nobody there looks like the status, which is really annoying since the film is trying to be about them, suposedly. Im more frustrated with Athena. The shape of the actor's chin is totally different. And also the actors themselves are skeletal because of modern stupid beauty standards. And this is honestly disgusting.
Also the other stupid thing is that, for the 3 actors, their skin color is a little too bright, and the other one's is just totally irrelevant. Troy was even northen than the bronge age kingdoms it was invaded by. All of them should be some light shade of brown.
Like, at this point it is sufficient to say, they just want to make a movie, and they just name it "x" to make it seem more importand than it is.
Broad_Yam6503@reddit
That's right, they are real women unlike those expressionless and sterile statues
Yakusaka@reddit
Keep your grubby blackwashing hands off of European history and lore.
Saying that, Lupita would be great as Athena.
Anne is fine as Penelope, Charlize is passable for Circe, and Zendaya is a very poor fit for any of those roles.
Dear_Wrongdoer7271@reddit
Homer only describes Helen of Troy as super beautiful but does not give an exact description of her because the ideal beauty is subjective and up to every person's interpretation. Her skin color is not the point of her beauty. Homer uses a word λευκώλενος which means white armed and it has been used for women who grew up in palaces in juxtaposition to women who grew up working the fields who were more "dark" lets say.
Lucker_Noob@reddit
Instead of this absurd astroturfed travesty, I recommend everyone to check Ralph Fiennes's Odyssey instead.
Inside-Reading1915@reddit
Idgaf abt this being Nolan's movie,it looks like slop(there are some diehard fans of his that thinks whatever he creates will be other wordly)
Kioz@reddit
Ryan Gosslimg as Martin Luther King pls
TheFall101@reddit
You know damn well what they are
ihatelag01@reddit
Who cares, it’s not like that movie is marketed as “100% accurate historical documentary”. It’s a form of art based on mythology of all things.
TheCosmicPony@reddit
This is as culturally insensitive and appropriative as Gal Gadot cast as Cleopatra. It’s embarrassing. These are the National Enquirer of films.
AttemptFirst6345@reddit
I can’t watch anything with woke casting. I admire most of Chris Nolan’s work but whether he’s signed off on wokeness voluntarily or been coerced into it, it just removes any shred of credibility from the work. Same with the Harry Potter thing, even in fiction you don’t insult the reader or viewer with your box-ticking performative nonsense.
preduhitrivac111@reddit
Not gonna watch that shit
Zizou1516@reddit
Jackie Chan as Zeus? 😀
Jeepers-H-Cripes@reddit
Did he run out of Greek actresses to pick from? Anne Hathaway is quite literally the only one whose phenotype is even close to being plausible as Greek. As a history nerd, it simply ruins the suspension of disbelief for me. We’ve actually recovered DNA from ancient remains of both Mycenaean and Minoan peoples of the region, and it clearly shows that modern Greeks are the direct linear descendants of those ancient peoples.
I guess artistic interpretation is one thing, but I won’t be buying a ticket myself. Too jarring.
losdreamer50@reddit
Life must be hard when you impose such silly limitations on what you enjoy
Jeepers-H-Cripes@reddit
Hey, you enjoy whatever diluted mass-market pablum that floats your boat, my friend. I happen to actually have studied a fair bit about this era of history, that’s all, and I refuse to accept that being ignorant is somehow more fun.
losdreamer50@reddit
Haha, thank you, I will. I'm open-minded so can enjoy lots of different types of entertainment. It's funny you say you have studied this era because I'm an actual Greek and I have a History and Archaeology degree.
Anyway, I stand by what I said. Art is art and it's fiction. Imposing limitations on it based on reality makes no sense. The artist will do whatever they can to support the purpose of the art; to provoke, to entertain. The race of a single actor going against a previous interpretation means absolutely nothing. Anything else is subjective.
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
I'm sure you have very sane political takes if you are this passionate about the genetics and phenotypes of actors for a fictional movie lmao
miroaseparchetul@reddit
WE WUZ
Icy_Calligrapher9471@reddit
Those silly Americans are gonna believe the movie just because of Helen of Troy and think Anatolia is in Africa. If they even bother to check a map, they'll see where Africa is. Then they'll see where Troy is and end up thinking Black people used to live in Anatolia and white people showed up later. Pff, shit...
SaraJuno@reddit
God forbid they cast mediterranean people. Also Zendaya is almost worst casting than Lupita. Nothing about her conveys Athena at all.. she looks like a nervous kid.
No-Sandwich2225@reddit
How come we don’t see this the other way around? Does anyone have an example?
FixLaudon@reddit
Zendaya as Athena? What is this, a tribute to Sailormoon?
Thin_Relationship_61@reddit
Swap the casting of Circe and Helen and it MIGHT just work if you squint your eyes.
But overall, the casting of black actors to play mythological european figures is a huge middle finger to us.
Mundane_Mix_6556@reddit
No one is going to the Cinema anymore, so they try hard to do “controversial” things and create some buzz… It’s not that deep 😀
Amadeus_t@reddit
Too white... 🤣🤣🤣
futanarifutaba@reddit
Don't they feel the breeze in their pockets already?
Nobody's watching those idk how they turn profit from 10ys of unpopular slop. Even if they had a watchable movie, huge % of the profit goes into marketing...
andrei_8991@reddit
Hollywood slop is worse than AI slop these days.
bromance07@reddit
They should make all black from now why stop there, add some indian and asians as well
Srish__@reddit
Hahahah! Jeez. This sub is honest unlike the American ones. Hollywood seems to have a dearth of actors these days. Its like they have these 10 actors and they keep shuffling
Bloubloum@reddit
For me , only Anne Hathaway is well casted.
Kitsooos@reddit
Looks-wise she is a great cast indeed. Charlize is ok as well. The other 2 are bad. Zendaya has too much of a baby-face to play Athena and Lupita .... welll .... No comments.
LoyalZebra@reddit
I agree.
samir_saritoglu@reddit
Same here
Purple_Moon516@reddit
0 Mediterranean looking people in sight.
Zendaya as Athena is just wrong.
LoyalZebra@reddit
White does not mean British, also. Suthern Europeans look different than Northern Europeans. Everybody can tell a Nordic etc. Why is there no desire to show this diversity?
PurpleBudget5082@reddit
Film is a visual art medium. Skin color is extremely visual. How are we supposed to believe what we see when our rationale is telling us that is a lie.
Helen being black will break the film illusion (that what is happening on the screen can be real) every second she is on screen.
Is a cheap political message, if they would care about african-american culture they would make TV shows and films about it, not make films about white cultures with an african-american cast.
young959@reddit
Damn political correctness has ruined everything. First it was Snow White, then The Little Mermaid, and now it's Odyssey. I boycott this Hollywood garbage.
Rinma96@reddit
Charlize is fine. The others need to change
LoyalZebra@reddit
Athena and Helen, no. Greeks were white with dark hair (Balkan part of the Mediterranean). He should be looking for actresses like Angelina Jolie, Lena Headey, and similar slender women with dark hair and strong jaws.
One_Mail_2414@reddit
Historically inaccurate.
Mako2401@reddit
Roufianos255@reddit
Terrible. They could have at least got a couple of actors of Greek descent or got some Mediterranean looking people to make up the extras in the army.
All that aside, I can't stand Tom Holland, Matt Damon and Zendaya as actors anyway. Might skip entirely.
GustavIIIWasGay@reddit
Neither the men nor the women look especially greek. But I'd simp for Nyongo so fair enough.
Swatcol@reddit
Personally, I couldn't give two shits.
Having a black actress playing a Mediterranean mythical character just doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Actually, I find it hilarious that people are getting rattled over this, most of whom wouldn't even watch the movie. Always the usual suspects, too.
1866GETSONA@reddit
Balkaners try not to be racist challenge: impossible
DomerOfDaliban@reddit
Don't worry, it's historically accurate!
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Same. If this is a problem where was this with Napoleon, Gladiator II etc? Why solely the Odyssey?
It's Mythology. There is no evidence this Trojan War took place
kodial79@reddit
The Trojan war did actually happen. Archaeological evidence suggests this but there's also ancient correspondence between Hittites and Achaeans which acknowledges it.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Again no it didn't. A Trojan War happened but not the one featured in the Odyssey.
kodial79@reddit
The Epic Cycle is just a mythical version of a real war. We cannot know for sure if figures appearing in the Epic Cycle were actually real persons... There was a real Achilles...
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Until we have solid evidence this Trojan War that Homer wrote about was real it's purely fiction.
kodial79@reddit
Have it your way but regardless of the event being not historical, the people and their culture featured in it, are very much historical.
thpp999@reddit
Well... No. In the late 19th century, archaeologists discovered the ruins of actual Troy (known as Hisarlik) in modern-day Turkey. Archaeological evidence shows that the city was destroyed by fire and warfare around 1200 BCE, which lines up with the timeline of the legendary Trojan War.
There were definitely major conflicts during the Late Bronze Age between the Mycenaean Greeks and the powers in Asia Minor (like the Hittite Empire and Troy).
Helen of Troy is an embellishment and a mythological figure, sure, but she also was the daughter of Zeus and Leda. In the Late Bronze Age, it was completely standard practice for raiding parties to abduct royal or high-status women from rival cities. These women were valuable as hostages, political pawns, or enslaved workers.
So, while you won't find a birth certificate or historical record for Helen of Sparta/Troy, she represents a poetic personification of the very real conflicts of the ancient Mediterranean world.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Yes but that is why I said THIS trojan War because we have evidence A Trojan War took place around the time the Odyssey is believed to have taken place.
SerbianHustle@reddit
It is just dumb and wrong, and I wouldn't also give two shits about it if it was someone else instead of Nolan. I care ony because it's Nolan. It will definately be a great piece of cinema and have stunning shots, perfectly done practical effects, and possibly be a great movie, overshadowed by bad casting. Breaks immersion, makes things less convincing overall.
Armageddonn_mkd@reddit
The casting could have been better, especially for Athena and Helen
Adventurous-Sort-671@reddit
Benedict Cumberbatch as Shaka Zulu 🥹
duskpatroler@reddit
Disgrace by an agenda Hollywood. Imagine if the other way around happened.
yamidevil@reddit
I don't like any of these, bottom two especially. It's almost like Greeks never immigrated to USA or don't know English....
scricimm@reddit
Like the new harry Potter and the new Szanpe!
ZedGenius@reddit
Harry Potter is 100% fictional. Black Snape isn't the same at all as this.
UkyoTachibana@reddit
I’d go with an asian Ulysses
ObjectConsistent3297@reddit
we woz tojan
ristlincin@reddit
We really need Mansa Musa biopic starred by a Japanese guy as Mansa Musa. And a reenaction of Gone With the Wind where all the actors are black.
cpteric@reddit
athena and circe aren't great casts. Athena is a godess of wisdom and war, based on statues alone you expect someone in their late 20's, early 30's, someone with experience. she looks too young.
circe was a witch of the aegean, that doesn't really fit with keltic features - atleast she should have a summer-tan on.
About helen, we don't know her origin ( she was of sparta after marrying agammennon's bro, and of troy after marrying paris, but before? the story doesn't care about that part much ). But the beauty to pretty much end two civilizations should be something more... stunning. nothing against lupita's looks but there's actresses with more "woah". that or go full exotic and bring in some ginger, freckles, emerald eyes to picture some otherwordly and completely unseen before beauty.
inb4 "it's a myth" comments,
agammenon was real, troy was real, the achean empire was real, achilles and odyseeus were real, and a war that devastated metropolis-size troy with over 10m tall flagstone walls in the late 13th century BCE right before the sea peoples razed most mediterranean civilizations was also real.
The myth is grounded in real events either passed down by voice or by now pretty much lost pictography, amplified with god actions to add some nice drama.
agouraki@reddit
i dont care anymore tbh and the more we bother with this the more power we give em to continue this blackwash
GregK1985@reddit
I'd swap Charlize with Lupita
Nearby-Froyo-6127@reddit
Ah yes, the woman for whom people waged war and razed countries to the ground for... Yeah, totally believable /s
Stverghame@reddit
Both Snape and Helen in such a short timeframe...
This is ridiculous at this point, I hope both of projects flop
DrejkSR@reddit
Ok if we ignore obvious elephant in the room wtf is with Zendaya as Athena?
Girl have like 45kg with full backpack on her and she should be goddess of warfare and wisdom?
Literally like they are trying to trigger people.
dorobica@reddit
densje@reddit
Im not sure man.
Thanos_354@reddit
Ah yes, let's compare the fictional recreation to the so fictional recreation of a completely fictional story
gans15@reddit
In this version of the Trojan war the loser must keep Helen
Max_ach@reddit
I think this movie should be forbidden in the greek cinemas...just as a protest. Wtf was Nolan thinking?
best_decision1234@reddit
Helen of Troy is an offense to everyone involved and so is the black snake from the new Harry Potter series. Call me an ashole, I don’t care, you cannot sht like this on the source material .
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
Helen of Troy was, according to mythology, a golden-haired blonde 🏛️
Pendiro@reddit
They missed the memo in the production company, Circe and Helen should have swapped actresses.
SerbianHustle@reddit
Big fan of Nolan movies. My favorite is the prestige. Love the dark knight trilogy, tenet and memento. Interstellar, oppenheimer and Inception are also good, but weaker than the others for me.
But man, why do his cating agent always get the few same people, why cast anne hathaway this much, I really dislike her. Always disliked her but the hr meme somehow made her even more unlikeable for me with that hr energy.
Zendaya can pass pretty fine, but lupita nyongo for helen is a no go, what were they thinking? How were people on board for this, why do they do this? What is next a white actor playing mohhamad ali or mlk? It is like early google ai prompt of founding fathers when google made them black women.
TheETERNAL20@reddit
It's called connections. Most of these actoes have worked with Nolan or each other in other productions that's why many of his cast are the same.
People are onboard because it's a non issue. Skin is not the problem, it should be if she can act the part.
Why would Hollywood ever touch Islam? Closest they did was feature Islam in Kingdom of Heaven so moot point and with MLK they're not gonna cast a white guy rather botch his life this is Hollywood.
SerbianHustle@reddit
1st thing - I am aware, but it annoys me and anne hathaway annoys me.
Second - I only wanted to point out the stupidity of it, but we all know why these things happen.
Infamous_Reporter_71@reddit
Hollywood trash. Nothing new.
humanistazazagrliti@reddit
Should have cast Lena Headey as Circe, just for the dad joke word play.
paulstefan@reddit
So this confirms that Helen was Anatolyan of origin.
iadaci@reddit
I don’t give a crap about the jewish/western film industry, it’s been almost a year since I watch only Korean movies and tv series.
GercektenGul@reddit
White people can believe in flying shapeshifting eternal magical beings but for some reason it’s beyond comprehension that any of them are black.
Serious_Sense_6097@reddit
Yes because she couldn't be black. She was from Sparta and she was described as white-armed by homer.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
My dude, suspension of disbelief can only go so far. Trojan war may be a myth, but it is based on actual places and people that inhabited those areas. None of those people were sub-saharan Africans. Troy was located in the Marmara region of Asia Minor (Anatolia), near straight of Dardanelli. There is absolutely nothing to suggest any of its inhabitants were black, especially not the princess.
Black Panther is also a fictional comic book character. Imagine the backlash if a white man was cast to play him.
A_scary_monster@reddit
You know the Greeks don’t do that anymore right. They’re more into Eastern Orthodox Christianity
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
meowingintgenameof@reddit
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
They knew exactly what they were doing when they made the casting, they wanted to send a message that black women can be important and beautiful and shit, they knew people would talk about it and create publicity for the film. I don’t think the message is fit for this setting but the whole movie is going to be surface level inauthentic garbage on the historical angle. I’ll still go and watch the movie, it could still be a great movie regardless of the diversity and inclusion spectacle
Spare_Shirt7736@reddit
terrible, african origin people have no place in Greek history....
Tenchi_Muyo1@reddit
Helen represents modern Anatolians
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
She was Spartan not Anatolian
Turbulent-Debate7661@reddit
The problem is helen she doesnt depict directly the helen of troy. But it is a problem if you want it to be. Its acting and actors dont have colors, race, ethnicity. I can act as a dog if i want because im acting. So lupita acts the helen of troy so its shouldnt matter as long as the acting is good.
bulgar2000@reddit
German Diane Kruge played helen in troy 2004 and no one cared.
To an Ancient Greek a German Helen would probably be just as weird as an african one.
velesevvv@reddit
I hate literally all the casting choices but it doesn't matter to me as much as the dogshit historical costumes do.
Kitsooos@reddit
Pitch Black Helen is definitely a choice ....
ekirock@reddit
You hate lupita as helen but are fine with charlize for circe? Be f fr. Literally noone looks greek </3 they all have v faces and small noses and fit perfectly the description of “instagram face”. As a greek person, i immediately was torn off when i saw the lack of color on the architecture and armors. But the casting just gives shallow.. of course i dont mean the actors but just to put every celebrity you can possibly fit into a movie is just for what? For bait? Ugh
Ill-Inspector6149@reddit
I hope at some point in the future ,someone will produce an AI tool and change any character in a movie, with one you prefer .... that will solve those kind of "problems"
Tenchi_Muyo1@reddit
This is Balkan washing, they should have cast actors from the Balkan and Anatolia
alpidzonka@reddit
Celto-Germanic barbarians portraying Greeks, how dare they. If the actors aren't all Greek I'm not watching /s
jovotschkalja@reddit
oh none of the girls are made of marble, fuck the racists
a-3ter@reddit
I was moderately excited at first but nah.. they lost me. This is as or even more rediculous than black Cleopatra
OkoMushrooom@reddit
Circe is spot on.