Unionbusting and safety concerns continue at Rockcliffe Flying Club as CIRB delays certification
Posted by Playful-Ad-9663@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 35 comments
I made a post a few months back asking for this subreddits opinion on what would happen if my schools flight instructors made an attempt to unionize. The common opinion was it ain’t happening. Here is what happened. That place is doomed now.
Urrolnis@reddit
That school is doomed and like many small businesses, will fail. It may flail around for a bit with its new employee group, but will fail.
Those instructors who faced retaliation may also be in hot water as well, which is why the general consensus for flight instructors (and generally for non-career jobs anyway) is to get in and get out. I can't imagine a whole lot of flight schools are going to be open to hiring instructors who tried to unionize the flight school.
Hopefully the business fails fast and the owners lose their pants in the process and the instructors can find new jobs soon.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
It’s a unique situation cause since it’s a flying club there is no actual owner. It’s a not for profit organization with a board and a GM. And the board attempted to stepped down to vote a new board in. And not a single person nominated themselves for the 6 positions. So it’s doomed. The board will stay a bit longer it seems.
mduell@reddit
Why don’t the FIs take over the board? Run it how they want it.
xiz111@reddit
It's a volunteer board, elected by the members. The club's charter states that the board members can't be employees
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
Bylaws say it has to be members, not employees.
mduell@reddit
Can you be both?
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
Nope. Would be conflict of interest, as the board is supposed to be advocating for the future of the club and overall success. Which they have now failed at.
tube_and_fabric@reddit
The school is not a private for-profit business, but a nonprofit member organization. The club is run by a volunteer board with a GM overseeing operations. The club is also the airport operator, performing airport snow removal while also being the field’s sole provider of fuel and maintenance services. The airport grounds itself is owned by the federal government, and surrounded by the most affluent neighbourhood in the city that would be happy to see the airport shutdown.
Should the club fail, the result is not that a greedy businessman loses his shirt, but instead the loss of one of the few remaining GA-centric airports in the national capital region. With Ottawa international airport becoming less welcoming of small aircraft, and Carp airport now owned by a housing developer, the loss of Rockcliffe would be another nail in the coffin for Canadian GA.
The club recently navigated out of serious financial difficulties and was trending towards a sustainable future. It has been disappointing to see this setback unfold. Wishing for the club to fold doesn’t help the staff, members, students, airport, and local aviation community. I personally hope a suitable solution is found for everyone involved.
Urrolnis@reddit
So if it's not a for profit business, who fired the instructors? Was it the GM? Or the volunteer board? Who was skirting safety policy?
I understand what you're saying, but the only difference here between what you're saying and my "I hope the owner loses his shirt" is the number of people on the receiving end.
If this club decided to not only reject the requests/demands of the instructor cadre but to fire them all and get them blacklisted, fuck 'em, let the club burn. Yes, that's going to hurt EVERYONE. That's the point. Have the day you deserve, and all.
Like all businesses and even nonprofits, if you cannot afford to treat your employees right, you do not deserve to be in operation.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
The GM operates at the direction of the board. The CFI, who was out of control and depending on who you asked, needed to be let go. The GM is very business oriented and should also be canned, cause he had personal issues with the CFI, leading the CFI to drive the union. Which is why it will not be certified as a manager (The CFI) cannot solicit people to join the union, which they did.
At the end of the day, these two people completely ruined the place, with both sides doing stupid things. And no matter what people say, you are correct in saying the writing is on the wall for this airport.
Urrolnis@reddit
Yeah, just burn it all down and start back over.
xiz111@reddit
The 'burn it all down' is easy. It's the 'start back over' part that usually never happens.
sprulz@reddit
Yeah this is the problem with unionizing as a flight instructor, you run a very real risk of doing irreparable damage to your career. Regionals were able to unionize way back when because there were enough pilots who were good staying at their airlines for their entire careers and wanted to make it better for themselves.
CFIs deserve a livable wage and ability to attain a decent living standard. The way the system treats flight instructors is abusive. But until there are enough flight instructors who are willing to make it their career goal, unionizing efforts will be an uphill battle.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
I was told, the instructors who were spearheads in this unionization effort. Have been blacklisted from all the flight schools in our region. And potentially ruined their careers.
helno@reddit
Kind of bullshit that the rest of the industry is heavily unionized and they can be blacklisted for wanting some of those protections at a lower level.
Urrolnis@reddit
It's not bullshit, it's a consequence of losing the fight. Everybody deserves a living wage and safe working conditions, but once you let the unionization genie out the bottle, it ain't going back in.
ALPA has a great set of books, Flying The Line Volumes One and Two, about the history of unionization in the airline industry. I highly recommend the read.
helno@reddit
I'm in a union.
My comment was just a statement. Just shitty that other employers would be so predatory.
Urrolnis@reddit
Yep. Unfortunately there's a huge difference in philosophy between the airlines and general aviation when it comes to, well, everything.
Despite my comments in this thread, I truly am in favor of unionization of flight instructors. Just don't think it's possible and this is the outcome.
helno@reddit
At least we don't seem to have the 1099 bullshit that is so common in the US.
Urrolnis@reddit
It's awful. I got hired on at a school back in the day as a W-2 and then once I got my first payslip it was as a 1099. I raised hell but the owners wouldn't budge. Once I threatened to go to the state they seemed more interested in swapping, but never did.
The kicker? State didn't care. I quite clearly met the requirements to be classified as an employee. Just didn't feel light fighting.
helno@reddit
The US has some real issues enforcing it's own labour laws.
Urrolnis@reddit
The government agencies that oversee all of that (really, all government agencies not related to blowing people up) are underfunded and understaffed and bogged down with their own unnecessary bureaucracy to the point where nothing is possible.
This is by design. Not the People's design.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
It was a not for profit flying club with a shitty mobile home as a building (tree fell on the last one). Not like an ATP college program flight school with lots of money backing it. They had amassed $500,000 over the last few years for a new building and upgrades, and that money has now evaporated dud to legal costs associated with the shut down. This is what was bound to happen. Now a CFI from an international flying school across the river stepped in, who has positioned himself for a takeover. Good riddance.
Urrolnis@reddit
Yep. Often it's cheaper to just accept the workgroups requests/demands vs fighting them. I'm not gonna cry for a multi billion dollar business and I'm not gonna cry for a flying club. Dicks are dicks.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
Haha bingo.
Urrolnis@reddit
Yep. A lot of modern labor movements act like unionization is a no brainer decision with zero downside and that its a good fit for every workplace.
Unfortunately that's not the case in this scenario. You can lose the union drive. Contract negotiations don't always consist purely of improvements for the labor group, sometimes there's some concessions involved.
The outcome here is a shame but not exactly surprising.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
That’s what it seems like the instructors thought would happen. As the spark for all of this, was the mandate that instructors were required to bill 75 hours of ground/flight time/sim time per month, in order to get the full time monthly salary of $500, on top of hourly pay. They wanted no such requirement and deemed it unsafe. Instead of the managers sitting down and trying to figure it out, a union was formed.
Urrolnis@reddit
I'm very pro union but a bonus for hitting a certain billable amount is not unsafe. Shit, I wish I got $500/month on top of what I was billing.
Bhuddasbellyactual@reddit
I have no horse on this race but it seems like the messaging here is quite one sided. If true, this is quite a big issue, particularly the safety issues.
This situation doesn’t bode well for GA / flight training in the NCR.
DrFegelein@reddit
If you read to the bottom of the article, you'll see it was written by a communications staffer of the Union that the CFIs joined. Business Wire is for press releases, not independent journalism. Not a bad thing, just explains why it reads one sided.
Bhuddasbellyactual@reddit
Ack! I saw that. For additional context, I have seen other posts in this topic with a boatload of amplification of the points in the article.
At the end of the day, it is the pilot in command that makes the call whether it is safe to fly or not. If I were a student, I’d be quite angry if my instructor signed me off on a solo, or even a dual, flight knowing potential safety things going on.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
Yeah even before the shutdown, I had already parted ways with the club. But from what I’ve heard, there are two sides to the story. With both having their own sets of issues.
Hour-Manufacturer256@reddit
My time at Rockcliffe was simultaneously one of my fondest memories in my professional career and one that I would never willingly put myself into ever again.
Always on the verge of bankruptcy, always ran by people who weren’t willing to confront problems. Leadership would rather sick their heads in the sand than try to fix things. The organization was(is?) not run by serious people.
On the other hand that post-Covid crew was legendary, so many fun times that I probably won’t ever see again in a workplace.
Playful-Ad-9663@reddit (OP)
Yeah I’ve had a blast with the people there. The massive egos of the CFI and GM simply clashed and ruined the place. Which is the actual truth to all of this.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I made a post a few months back asking for this subreddits opinion on what would happen if my schools flight instructors made an attempt to unionize. The common opinion was it ain’t happening. Here is what happened. That place is doomed now.
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