Why did corruption deteriorate so badly in Serbia?

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captaingrabma@reddit

Cause they think Putin and the current Russian government are their friends.

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Decent_Swimmer9237@reddit

Serbians don't give shit about Ukrainian war, they have their own problems.

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captaingrabma@reddit

I see, and im not saying they should or have to. Its just that they serve as a Russian Hub in Europe. And that brings corruption.

And to be fair Serbians aren’t know to be caring for others. Especially their neighbors, so i did not expect them to care about Ukraine.

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Decent_Swimmer9237@reddit

You think Serbian neighbors care about Serbia or Serbs(other than Romania ❤️❤️)?

Russians,Americans or Chinese they are all the same to Serbians.

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No cause the neighbors of Serbia used to part of the same republic called Yugoslavia. And the Serbians were the most dominant ethnic group and undermined the others. That is why they broke from Yugoslavia. Cause the Serbian population was the center of Yugoslavia and Belgrade being the capital of it. Meanwhile minorities like Croats, Bosnians, Kosovans etc.

If the Serbians were such nice and friendly, caring and trustworthy neighbors. Yugoslavia would never had broken apart. And now all that is left is a country that full of angry people. That used to be great but lost all its friends due to their own behavior. And ofcourse they always blame others but themselves for it.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

And if the Serbians were such nice, tolerant, friendly, trustworthy and caring neighbors. Croats, Bosnians and Kosovans would never had broken apart from yugoslavia. I mean Serbia or the Serbian dominance was the whole reason for the break out of the war.

Think really hard about this, did Czechoslovakia break apart because Czechs were bad neighbours to Slovaks?

And now all that is left is a country that is full of angry people. They used to be a great republic without being independent on anyone nor the USA nor the USSR. But now they lost all of their friends due to their own behavior. And they got angry at their own former friends for not wanting to be with them.
But looking in the mirror is hard for many Serbians, thats why many of them (not all) blame the rest of the world for their misfortune.

This is again 6th grade logic, Serbia nowadays has pretty good relations with most of its neighbours, and also has living standards very similar to it's neighbours.

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captaingrabma@reddit

No they did not break up because they were bad neighbors. Due to lack lack of unified media and actions of political leaders like the disagreements between Prime Minister Klaus and Mečiar. And besides that, Slovakia and the Czech republic being unified was mostly only beneficial during the cold war, since both a satelite state of the USSR. So both agreed to break up to prevent a lot of trouble. And this cannot be said about the splitting of Yugoslavia.

And Serbia’s relationship with its neighbors aren’t pretty good. They are just functional and formal. But not a ‘good relationship’ with their neighbors. And living standards are similar yes. But Croatia and Slovenia have a much higher standard of living and they are making significantly more progress.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

No they did not break up because they were bad neighbors. Due to lack lack of unified media and actions of political leaders like the disagreements between Prime Minister Klaus and Mečiar.

You said good neighbors would never break apart, why this duplicity? Will you now agree that just because Yugoslavia broke apart it doesn't prove we were bad neighbours?

And Serbia’s relationship with its neighbors aren’t pretty good. They are just functional and formal. But not a ‘good relationship’ with their neighbors.

Serbia has a great relationship with Hungary and North Macedonia, we are pretty good with Romania and Bulgaria, and we are good/functional with the rest.

Croatia and Slovenia have always been richer and better developed, but they are not making significantly more progress, at least not recently. You know about the economy but socially as well it's far from black and white. Just last year Serbia had one of the largest pro-democracy protests Europe has ever seen with up to 800k people, while in Croatia they held the largest concert in Europe with 500k people but for a neo-nazi nationalist singer.

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captaingrabma@reddit

Okay well i didn’t mean that. Let me rephrase then, i meant that if Serbians would be friendly, tolerant and caring. Then maybe the Croats, Bosnians and Kosovans wouldn’t have broken apart.

And no i would not agree. The Serbians waged a war on their neighbors for distancing themselves from the Serbians. So what do you mean the Serbians weren’t bad neighbours? Hahaha are you serious?

And yes you are right about that. But i was talking to the neighbours that Serbia undermined and used to be part of Yugoslavia not the other ones.

And yes your right about the other facts. But that still does not define both countries as a whole. I just hope the best for Serbia and that they can become a good European neighbor that stops being a Russian hub, just like Hungary.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

You are too brainwashed to understand what I'm writing, Croatia waged war on their Serbian population and in the end ethnically cleansed 250 000 Serbs from their territory. Is that a good neighbor?

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captaingrabma@reddit

You mean during WW2?

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

No, in the 90s

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captaingrabma@reddit

Well ofcourse ‘Operation Storm’ in 1995 by Croatian army is something i would condemn. Revenge is never a good thing and should always be condemned. And its sad that this has caused over 200.000 serbs to forcefully flee their homes. This was just pure ethnic clensing. Let that be clear.

But this was after the the Serbs devasted the Croatian town of Vukovar in 1991. Where eventually tens of thousands ethnic Croats were displaced and 260 Croatian men where detained and killed by Serbs.

So ‘Operation Storm’ should be condemned yes 100%. But then you need to acknowledge and condemn that Serbia should never have devastated Vukovar displacing tens of thousand Croats and massacre 260 Croat men that were already detained.

And with WW2, i mean yes Croatian fascists who collaborated with the Nazi and killed over 250.000 Serbians. Should also be condemned for sure. But in my country The Netherlands we also had Fascists who collaborated with the Nazi’s. They were responsible for the deaths of 300.000 Dutch jews. And fascists are fascists they kill those who are not aligned with their ideology. So i think we agree on the fact that fascists are just pure evil no matter where they are from.

To me is just clear that Serbia is not a victim from its neighbors. Serbia is a victim of it self. Thats why so many former Yugoslavian republics turned against Serbia. Simply because they weren’t very nice neighbors. Im sure it has improved nowadays, but in 90’ they just fucked around and found out. And i miss that acknowledgment from many Serbs.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

You are constantly mixing up terms, majority of Serbs will acknowledge that our leaders in the 90s were ruthless war criminals, but their behaviour in the wars can't retroactively change the history of Yugoslavia up until that point.

We are far from the only country with war criminals, even in Europe, and especially lately, but we are one of the very few that actually turned those criminals to justice and international courts. When will Israel be sanctioned for what they are doing, when will Bibi be brought to Hague? When will US leaders and generals be brought to justice for their war crimes in the middle east? When will EU leaders and generals be brought to justice for their war crimes in north africa and the middle east? Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya were all illegal and criminal wars, but no sanctions or a single criminal was brought to justice. I'm just listing crimes that happened since the Yugoslav wars that your government supported, but it's not like you were peaceful before the 90s.

You have a bone to pick with Serbia for stuff that happened 30+ years ago, be my guest, you're not the first or the last foreigner with a holier than thou attitude, we are used to the western superiority complex. But you have no idea what you are talking about, all your talking points are outdated, it's like you are stuck in 2002, history didn't start in 1990 and didn't end in 1999, a lot of stuff happened since the wars, even more stuff happened before. You think you have some amazing insights into our situation, but you just repeat 30 year old propaganda, it makes you sound like a kid that read some stories in an outdated schoolbook.

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captaingrabma@reddit

I have never stated that other countries including mine haven’t made mistakes. But you were challenging me on the subject of the Serbian war.

I mean we can also talk about WW2 where I would blame the Nazi’s for the all the suffering and sorrow. We can talk about the Israeli’s who are ethnically cleansing the west bak and massacre murdering Palestians. And i think many people here in my country would love to see Bibi send to trial in The Hague.

We can talk about the wars in the middle east iraq for example where my country sadly also participated in. And that’s where we were the aggressors along with the US and UK.

Afghanistan is was a big mistake where also crimes were committed by US forces. Soldiers like Jeremy Morlock, Calvin Gibbs, Andrew Holmes and Michael Wagnon were convicted and sent to jail for the murder of innocent civilians.

And even im in 1945 till 1949 our government went to Indonesia to fight against the Indonesian freedom fighters. Dutch troops were sent to Indonesia and years of a nasty and unnecessary bloody war followed. With many war crimes comitted by our Dutch forces against the Indonesians. All under the name of ‘Special Policing Intervention’. Which sounds awfully similar the current ‘Special Military Operation’ in Ukraine. But u can tell you our people still today feel ashamed of what has happened and that our government should have never done this whatsoever. Especially after being occupied by the Nazi’s. Although back then there was already some huge backlash from the people themselves.

So don’t worry, I don’t have my head up my ass. But this time the topic was about the war that broke out in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia back in the 90’s. So yes, then i would call out Serbia for what they have done there. But as you can see i would happily call out other countries, including my own in other conflicts. I do know what im talking about. And i try to remain as fair and square as i can.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

Sentencing a few soldiers for excessive force is in no way justice for the criminal wars and invasions. There was no sanctions, and no extraditions to international courts. You say many people would love to see Bibi send to trial, yet your government is still supporting them, sharing intelligence and proclaiming "Israel has a right to exist" as they invade and bomb all their neighbours.

I grew up under sanctions and bombing, and I was told I deserved it for the actions of my government before I was even born and while I was still a little kid. As my country was bombed, I was also bombarded by propaganda, telling me that all that was a consequence of our criminal leadership, and that we should have fought harder against our government if we didn't want to get bombed and sanctioned.

I believed it of course, my parents were pro-eu, fought against Milošević through the 90s, as a kid you just accept the prevailing narrative, you don't really question what you are told.

But then you grow up and start to notice some patterns, the narrative starts breaking. Libya gets bombed and sanctioned and destroyed because of "democracy", and no one in the west is held responsible for the objective humanitarian catastrophe? Then Saudi Arabia, which is an absolute monarchy, gets to starve and murder people in Yemen for years, and doesn't get bombed for "democracy", doesn't even get sanctioned? You start learning about the occupation of west bank, about the brutal military occupation imposed on Palestinians for decades, which no one has a problem with, EU leaders will even say to any criticism "Israel has a right to exist" implying that they have a right to genocide Palestinians. You see Azerbaijan ethnically cleanse Nagorno-Karabakh with Azeri leaders touted as great european partners, no one even mentions any sanctions, let alone bombing or bringing those criminals to justice.

And after awhile, you realize, the is no international justice, the west doesn't care about democracy or war crimes, they just use it as justification when it suits them to invade and subjugate other countries. That doesn't justify the crimes of my own government, but it does contextualize my own suffering as a young kid living under sanctions and bombing from the most powerful military alliance in the world.

My government in the 90s was criminal and incompetent and brutal and they deserved everything bad that happened to them, in fact they deserved much worse. But it's moronic to take western leaders for their word and accept they sanctioned and bombed us because of our criminal government, we were sanctioned and bombed because we were targeted for destruction. The west was funneling arms and money to the UCK since at least 1996, hoping the Serbian government will respond brutally so they can have a better excuse to invade us, it's the same playbook the west used in all other invasions since then.

Our country was intentionally destroyed and sold off for pennies on the dollar, with Dutch companies buying up huge swaths of our economy and critical infrastructure, and now little dutch kids come to tell us how we were not victims, that we deserved everything that happened to us, we fucked around and found out.

It's bullshit, you live in the imperial core, profiting from all this suffering that your country had a serious role in, and you even have the gall to lecture the people you are subjugating. You think Netherlands changed since the 1950s and the genocide of Indonesians? You are just intentionally blind to the reality that is too hard for you to accept.

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captaingrabma@reddit

I do not understand why you keep mentioning Bibi Netanyahu and israel. Because the majority of the west opposes israel. And yes, i wish our government would do more against them. Just like Saudi-Arabia, we do not like them either for being an absolute monarchy. And yes i condemned Iraq already and Libya.

And whoever said you deserved to be bombed for what you leadership did back in the 90’s is also insane. So i do not get it why you throw all this at me when we were talking about the war in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia back in the 90’s.

You wanna pull out every single conflict, cause i think we would mostly agree on all of them.

Nobody here is gonna tell you that Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan was a great success and 100% justified. Nobody will and anyone who will is absolutely out of his mind.

And the majority here would not justify Israel, in fact i think the majority would actually oppose israel and wish they would do more against it.

And i cannnot imagine that anyone here would tell me you deserved to be bombed back then in the 90’s. I would 100% disagree with them and say they are insane. Not a single innocent civilian, from what country whatsoever, deserves to be bombed. War only knows victims. And in your case, you were the victim of the leader ship of Serbia back in the days. And saying that you deserved to be bombed because you, or your parents didn’t do enough against your country’s leadership, is absolutely insane.

I have never stated that, never viewed it and nor do i know anyone here who thinks that way. I spoke to many Dutch veterans who served in Srebrenica under the UN flag. None of them ever said they hated Serbian civilians. They did say they hated those who committed the war crimes, which were were not ordinary Serbian civilians.

You really think im that stupid that i cannot distinguish the ordinary civilians from military troops? I mean i am pro Ukrainian. That does not mean i cheer for Ukrainian drones striking Russian civilians. Just because Putin bombs Ukraine, don’t mean i think Russians deserve to be bombed in return. That is completely insanity.

So i don’t know why you keep suddenly change the whole narrative from the war in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia to other conflicts that i have already condemned aswell. Because then we can have an endless conversation. Because it took you a long time to finally condemn Serbia’s military actions.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

I do not understand why you keep mentioning Bibi Netanyahu and israel. Because the majority of the west opposes israel. And yes, i wish our government would do more against them. Just like Saudi-Arabia, we do not like them either for being an absolute monarchy. And yes i condemned Iraq already and Libya.

Majority of the west supports Israel, Israel is an Anglo-American project and your countries are all part of the same empire. Your country helps Israel, your country put sanctions on Yemen, you put sanctions on Iran, you put sanctions and invaded Syria because of Israel, just for starters. You wish your government did more against Bibi? Your government is their main partner and enabler.

The only reason why anyone is distancing from Israel right now, is because they are probably preparing a nuclear holocaust for Iran or some other heinous shit, and your government would like to claim to not be involved. But you will never put sanctions on Israel, not after everything they did for decades, and not after whatever heinous shit they do next.

You are quick to condemn every war that happened 10+ years ago, but these wars that are happening right now are somehow different, you can't help but support them...

And whoever said you deserved to be bombed for what you leadership did back in the 90’s is also insane. So i do not get it why you throw all this at me when we were talking about the war in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia back in the 90’s.

You said it. You said we fucked around and found out, that we can't look in the mirror and blame the world for our misfortune. When you pretend/imply that what happened to Serbia is fair, that's exactly what you are doing.

You wanna pull out every single conflict, cause i think we would mostly agree on all of them.
Nobody here is gonna tell you that Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan was a great success and 100% justified. Nobody will and anyone who will is absolutely out of his mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cdqQ2BdgOA

I'm not going to repeat myself, this same talking points that you are peddling have been peddled for 80+ years, you sound honest so I give you the benefit of the doubt, it took a while for me to get it too. It's easy and meaningless to be against wars that already ended, that's why those kind of opinions are allowed and promoted, to soothe the liberal soul and nothing else.

So i don’t know why you keep suddenly change the whole narrative from the war in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia to other conflicts that i have already condemned aswell. Because then we can have an endless conversation. Because it took you a long time to finally condemn Serbia’s military actions.

I didn't change the subject, all I did was contextualize the wars. As I already said, history didn't begin in 1990, nor did it end in 1999, you can't really discuss those events without context. I can explain again if you don't see any connection between Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, then I didn't explain it properly. You were the one who kept bringing up WWII fascists and Indonesia, which were unrelated.

You have to get over this obsession with condemning wars that already ended, you spent half of the conversation condemning old wars and trying to get me to condemn Serbia's actions in the 90s. Why? What do you think that proves? I don't need to hear your condemnation of old wars, what's next, you will condemn Napoleon and Genghis Khan? Being against the Iraq war is a safe position today, even Bush is against it nowadays, it took balls to be against it in 2002 and 2003, now it is worthless and cowardly, there is no reason to mention it unless you are peddling some narrative and need to prove you are the "correct opinion haver".

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captaingrabma@reddit

I do not see the point of this whole discussion. You keep pulling out new subjects when im trying to create dialogue. But all you do is just keep creating distance by putting words in my mouth and pulling things i said before put of context.

When i agreed with you on something and condemned what my country or leadership did. You just ignored that and pulled out other things that i also should condemn. What the fuck are you on about? You want me to take responsibility for your sorrow? What is you fucking point?

I tried to keep to it on the initial subject but you constantly keep pulling out new subjects over and over again. And if you need these other subjects to prove a point that was never even part about the discussion, im starting to wonder what the whole point of this discussion is.

You had fair points and i gave you them. And as soon as i agree with you on something, you inmediatly crushed the dialogue by creating a blame again. Maybe its you that is obsessed with the sorrow you once experience. Im i feel bad for you, cause clearly you did not get anything i tried to say…

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

I never put blame on you, I never asked you to condemn anything, I'm not interested in condemning anything, all I did was explain stuff and the fact that you are condemning what I'm explaining means you do not understand my point, so I try to explain in a different way...

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captaingrabma@reddit

But if you come up with subjects and critize them, and i happen to agree with you. That means the subject doesnt need no further explanation cause i understand and agree with your critics. And if i agree with what you ciritize, that means i condemn what the critics is about... its the same thing.

If i say to you i condemn with what happenend in iraq for example. Which you critized. That means i understand your critics and i happen to agree with it, thus i condemn what has happened.

Cause eventually i critize all stuff that should not have happenend. Wheter it is the Israeli genocide on Gaza and Libanon, the US, UK and Dutch invasion of Iraq, the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, the US/Israeli attack on Iran, the Chinese intimidation of Taiwan or the Serbian massacre of muslims in Srebrenica. It is all the same to me, but just because i happened to call out Serbia in this subject, does not mean im a hypocrite and i would defend what Dutch troops did in Iraq.

But you kept going on about it, so i did not see the point of that when i already agreed with your critics on that and when i already condemned it. That's all im trying to say.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

But you don't understand why I brought up Iraq, I didn't bring it up to criticize it, it was part of a larger point that was meant to illustrate a pattern of behavior. Yugoslavia in the latter half of the 90s was destabilized in a very similar manner to how Iraq, Libya and all other interventions went. Sanctions were applied, militant separatists were trained and armed, various narratives were pushed, and in the end the country was brutalized.

I don't have to agree with Milošević, or Saddam, or Gaddafi, or the Ayatollah, I would gladly condemn all their crimes in a vacuum, these leaders and their accomplices were not innocent and deserved everything bad that happened to them, but those crimes were not the real reason why these countries were destroyed, with millions of lives thrown into chaos.

These interventions are not proof that the people of those countries are guilty of some unique crimes, they are proof that they are victims of imperialism. You might think that Yugoslavia is different in some big way, but my point is that it just ended quickly while the narrative was really strong and the war was still popular. Similar to how the intervention in Venezuela was quick so the narrative is relatively good despite Trump being very unpopular.

When you look into it, the intervention was actually less successful than many others, the US military didn't manage to take out or capture Milošević, or actually stop the serbian military and police to commit their crimes. The fact that Milošević surrendered quickly actually he was willing to make deals (like Maduro), he wasn't as mad as he was presented in propaganda, there was some twisted logic to his actions and many of his atrocities could have been prevented if the real goal wasn't to destroy Yugoslavia.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

Did you read this in some school textbook?

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captaingrabma@reddit

Yes in school and also did my research.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

it reads like a 6th grade explanation

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captaingrabma@reddit

Your right, i typed it a bit too fast and short. But i changed it for you a little bit. And gave it some more details.

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MrDDD11@reddit

Lol we don't, we are selling weapons to Ukraine.

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captaingrabma@reddit

Yes true, but eventough serbia is indirectly selling weapons to Ukraine. Serbia still serves as a political destabilization hub in Europe. And because Serbia wants to be neutral between EU and Russia. The Kremlin is trying to prevent Serbia from ever joining EU and spread disinformation about the EU. So Serbians will vote for Pro-Russian government and meanwhile they will continue to grow more and more poor and that increases corruption.

Although i have to say, i think Vucic is slowly trying to escape from Russian ties. He probably knows the Russians aren’t up to no good. And good relationships with EU will be far more beneficial. But we’ll see.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

You are between 5 - 15 years old

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captaingrabma@reddit

No haha

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Aulawabe@reddit

He is an oportunists. Russia is just a tool he uses. People need to get that into their heads. 90% of investments to Serbia is from the west. I think they would cut that quite fast if he really was that pro putin.

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captaingrabma@reddit

He is using Russia as a tool? How is he using Russia as a tool?

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Aulawabe@reddit

Propagating to Serbian nationalists, feed them with Russia Love and they are quiet. On the other hand he propagates to his EU colleagues about how Serbia has progressed in human rights, law and order, corruption etc etc.

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sr_dayne@reddit

No, you stopped doing that almost one year ago. Just change your narratives and invent something else to brag about, fot gods' sake.

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MrDDD11@reddit

We stopped for a bit in June of 2025 and started again in 2026.

https://www.adriadefense.com/serbia-trade-ministry-signals-push-to-resume-arms-export-licensing/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

We just don't sell directly but indirectly through other countries. Like Poland.

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sr_dayne@reddit

This source does not mean shit. They are saying only about PLANS to reestablish licensing without even specifying to which countries to export. But what means is slapps ass of putin on vucic in the May of 2025 when russia found out that Serbia sells weapons to Ukraine. Do you really believe that after this, Serbia reestablished the selling of shells to Ukraine? I don't think so.

Yes, I get it, you lost your only argument against claiming "Serbia supports russia" in the internet, but please try to make up something better.

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MrDDD11@reddit

We are exporting to Isreal and indirectly to Ukraine through Czechia and Poland (confirmed) and possibly by Bulgaria (rumored by Russia)

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Southern_Soil_6157@reddit

one word - SNS

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Key-Concentrate806@reddit

Serbia deteriorated because Aleksandar Vucic considers the country his own property he and his followers can use to extract resources:

* You cannot just have business of a decent size without being somehow coupled with him

He plays extremely dirty at elections:

* Extortion

* Blackmail

* Paying for votes

* Fake political parties (especially minority parties)

* Everyone against him is foreign traitor

* Complete dominance of the TV and newspaper

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Key-Concentrate806@reddit

To be honest at this point I am more disappointed at EU than at him. Cut the bastards funding, impose sanctions on him and his accomplices.

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MrDDD11@reddit

He is useful to the EU. He gives them what they want at a much cheaper price. The previous German chancellor Olaf Scholz came to indorce him while also signing Lithium deals. Not to mention that all the rights to make school books in Serbia are owned by a German company and they have upchareged it like crazy, it costs you a arm and a leg.

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Plebmar@reddit

Yup, EU doesn't care what criminal is in power so long as said criminal is useful and obedient.

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Dimo145@reddit

They end up fattening up them up, then wonder why certain country ends up as an issue further down the line.

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captaingrabma@reddit

I do not see the point of this whole discussion. You keep pulling out new subjects when im trying to create dialogue. But all you do is just keep creating distance by putting words in my mouth and pulling things i said before put of context.

When i agreed with you on something and condemned what my country or leadership did. You just ignored that and pulled out other things that i also should condemn. What the fuck are you on about? You want me to take responsibility for your sorrow? What is you fucking point?

I tried to keep to it on the initial subject but you constantly keep pulling out new subjects over and over again. And if you need these other subjects to prove a point that was never even part about the discussion, im starting to wonder what the whole point of this discussion is.

You had fair points and i gave you them. And as soon as i agree with you on something, you inmediatly crushed the dialogue by creating a blame again. Maybe its you that is obsessed with the sorrow you once experience. Im i feel bad for you, cause clearly you did not get anything i tried to say…

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PaceZealousideal2807@reddit

J3ws taking charge of Ukraine like the president zzz

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Leading-Attempt-7364@reddit

Serbia has a war criminal for president. Tf you mean why? Serbia is being run by criminals. Isnt that guy who made čevapi from people linked to Vučić? Delije and Grobari are police in Serbia. Sad but true.

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Aulawabe@reddit

Hes bad but he isn't a war criminal. People use that word to lightly. The Hague has been around since the end of the 90s. They would have wanted him if they had anything on him.

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treba_dzemper@reddit

The war crime allegations are about Sarajevo Safari, nothing to do with his loud mouth in the 90s or his association with Šešelj and Milošević (although, "s kim si, takav si" is often true).

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Aulawabe@reddit

Like I said again. He is not a war criminal because you or I don't like him. I don't know why that is so hard to understand. Sarajevo Safari is as of now just a rumor.

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No-Introduction44@reddit

Just a correction, not (yet proven) war criminal but from a party riddled with them and he's a very poor human being.

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Ivanhegeelkadi@reddit

He was in a party with Šešelj (war criminal) and Slobodan Milosevic (war criminal)

Doesn't take a brain to figure he is accompliced to quite a few crimes that happened.

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Aulawabe@reddit

That doesn't make you a war criminal.

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Dovaskarr@reddit

"For every serb we will kill 100 muslims" is a direct qoute that Vučić told DAYS after the genocide in Srebrenica.

It was a legit call for genocide after they actually did a genocide. They attempted to do another one in Žep enclave and 80 Ukrainians under the UN protected 5 to 10k civilians and personally EVERY SINGLE SOLDIER put themselves in between civilians and Serbian soldiers. We would have gotten another Srebrenica 5 days after this qoute if it wasnt for Ukrainians under UN.

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No-Introduction44@reddit

The main issue is that he was a loudmouth back then, an opposition member of parliament. Very hard to charge him with anything, although I would personally love that.

There might be more substance in the story that he was behind manhunt tourism in Bosnia, because knowing what a piece of shit he is that sounds like him. But I'm also almost sure that he left no fingerprints.

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Aulawabe@reddit

Yes he said it. And don't think I like him in any way. But that is not war crimes, that is hate speech. You get the difference?

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PerpendicularTomato@reddit

He made what now

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ThereturnoftheVOH@reddit

Yes 😭

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Dazzling-Session-181@reddit

haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahah! Ukraine improved since 2022? haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha! Golden toilets and stuff..

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CTPABA_KPABA@reddit

Because we elected criminals pretending to be a political party in 2012 to punish what we than thought were the most corrupt politicians ever in times after financial crisis. We were wrong. It could and did got much worse.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

We also did that in 2009.

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Inside-Reading1915@reddit

You prob mean when are they going to win next.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Do you think that they are going to win again?

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Inside-Reading1915@reddit

Yes and no,I think that they are going to cheat on parlament elections and paint it as their win. Now it will come to the people to see if someone is going to do smth abt it or not.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

You had regional elections soon. What happened?

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Inside-Reading1915@reddit

The sudent list(opposition) almost won,but they made coalitions with 5 different lists to have the bigger part.Also there was some stealing,and my personal fear is of them going all in with cheating on parlament elections cause if they don't have the majority they are done.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I wish you good luck.

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Inside-Reading1915@reddit

Thank you very much

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Radusili@reddit

We'll also do it in 2028 from the looks of it. Can't miss the fun apparently

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This_Lion5856@reddit

Brothers in ass

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Distinct_Revenue@reddit

Hey! So we in Albania did the same with 'Rilindje' in 2013, which turned to be the most kleptocratic and corrupt government ever. Yay!

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clib@reddit

Dude.The leader of your opposition party and his family are designated non-grata for significant corruption by the US and Great Britain .. How can the present government be the most corrupt government ever? Or you just venting?

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RayanPenber@reddit

It was entirely political by the previous administration, the current prime minister is part of an investigation in US regarding a high Official of FBI accepting bribes from different countries to diminish the oppositions. The most important leaders of opposition were arrested right before the last elections, one which is still currently being held still in prison, while the other that is non-grata, was held in house arrest for months. The fact almost every high official of this government/party is in investigation for massive corruption with public investments, like hundreds of millions of corruption, and somehow the prime minister wasn’t “aware” that his ministers (everyone of them) was “stealing” under his nose…not like the opposition are any good, but the current one is making them look like rookies…

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clib@reddit

It was entirely political by the previous administration

What does that even mean? Significant corruption is significant corruption.

the current prime minister is part of an investigation in US regarding a high Official of FBI accepting bribes from different countries to diminish the oppositions.

Interesting.Can you please post a link to your claim?

The most important leaders of opposition were arrested right before the last elections, one which is still currently being held still in prison, while the other that is non-grata, was held in house arrest for months.

What is the reason for their arrests?Are those arrests related to corruption?

The fact almost every high official of this government/party is in investigation for massive corruption with public investments, like hundreds of millions of corruption, and somehow the prime minister wasn’t “aware” that his ministers (everyone of them) was “stealing” under his nose…

So the other poster mentioned the year 2013. How many of these high officials have been convicted of corruption so far? Are you accusing that prime minister of corruption himself or accusing him of turning a blind eye on corruption ?

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RayanPenber@reddit

Former prime minister of Albania, who is non-grata by USA, under his term he did some political “mistakes” toward some USA individuals. An oil rafinery in Albania which was an USA investment and primary shareholder of that company was Anthony Blinken, caused environmental damage digging for oil back then. The general prosecutor of that time opened investigations for it and US officials didn’t take it well, to the point that USA Ambassador in Albania was making open declarations that its not advised to take such actions as it would “ruin the approach of foreign investors in Albania”. When Blinken became secretary of state not much later the general prosecutor that started the investigations for the oil company was the 1st person to become non-grata, and he was prosecuted and convicted in Albania for buying a house 2000$ cheaper that the actual price (which is ridiculous).
A very high individual of FBI was convicted in USA formany things one of them is accepting bribes indirectly from the actual Prime Minister, to influence for business favors and also start investigations for the Albanian opposition by the USA, that the opposition takes funds by Russians. These rumors were exactly at the time when the ex Prime-Minister was declared non-grata by Blinken. Here you can read smth about it https://balkaninsight.com/2023/02/02/albania-opposition-demands-parliamentary-inquiry-on-former-fbi-official-scandal/bi/#:~:text=Edi%20Rama%20dismissed%20claims%20that%20his%20government,FBI%20investigations%20into%20matters%20that%20damaged%20the
The arrest for the non-grata was because he “favored” the appropriation of land for some of his relatives, to which he was later freed, bcz it was a nonsense, even because such competence at that time was responsibility of local government of Tirana, which mayor at that time was the actual prime minister. The ex Prime Minister did many shits, but of all the shits he did this wasnt one of them.
Almost all of his 2013 administration is under investigation for “significant” corruption, with half of them being in arrest, 1 ex vice prime minister fleeing the country and currently a minister and very close person to him, which he is refusing to remove the parliament immunity to her, because obviously she was very close to him and would be really problematic for him.

The corruption has become so obvious with him that they don’t even hide it anymore, its in the point where it’s becoming comic.

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clib@reddit

I honestly asked for some facts but you just flooded me with your political bias here.

1.So the opposition leader who was designated non-grata for significant corruption by the US is not in fact corrupt.It is Blinken who is the corrupt one. And since he is also designated non-grata by Great Britain that makes the British foreign secretary corrupt too. And you are talking here about the guy who started a civil war in his country, that needed a foreign peacekeeping force to pull the country out of the chaos. Right?

You are talking about the guy who made the list of the [10 Worst Enemies of Free Press] (https://cpj.org/reports/1998/05/enemies97/) side by side with people like Jiang Zemin,Castro,Lukashenko,Suharto etc. You are saying that this guy is not corrupt and the US and the UK are wrong?

You told me that the prime minister is part of an investigation in the US. I asked for a link for your claim .You didn't provide one. You gave me a link of the non-grata guy accusing the prime minister. In your reply you also added:

A very high individual of FBI was convicted in USA formany things one of them is accepting bribes indirectly from the actual Prime Minister, to influence for business favors and also start investigations for the Albanian opposition by the USA, that the opposition takes funds by Russians.

So once again please provide a link of this conviction that states that he took bribes indirectly from the prime minister.

You claimed that the leaders of the opposition were arrested right before the election.You didn't give me a date when were they arrested and when the elections were held. I asked if those arrests were related to corruption and you didn't answer.You told me he was released but didn't tell me when.Was he released before the elections? Was he released because he was found not guilty? You just blamed the justice system by calling it non sense. So you see this guy is not only designated non grata by the US and the UK but even the Albanian justice system is going after him for what you call it: “favored” appropriation of land for some of his relatives. So corruption.

4.I asked you: How many of these high officials have been convicted of corruption since 2013? You answer by telling me about investigations instead of convictions.And somehow for you the justice system in these cases is not doing some "non-sense" like they did with the non-grata guy. To you those investigations prove corruption but his investigation and his non-grata designation are non sense.

Do you see how biased you are?

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RayanPenber@reddit

Maybe read it again, those are not political biases are what actually happened, and as I can see you are pretty good on researching the internet to get information, I think you are able to get the “link” you are asking yourself. I gave an article of outside media source that I am sure if you cared to read it to the end they also included the part of the FBI high official conviction. But even if they wouldn’t have included it in the article, a simple search of his name in google and you can read all about that in wikipedia (as I see you can read wikipedia).

I also didn’t say the opposition leader isn’t corrupt or bad, I actually stated the opposite. The USA helped build the current justice system in albania, so if USA or UK deemed him non-grata for corruption, could they atleast provide these claims and proves to the current justice system so he can be incarcerated? I have no doubts the ex prime minister abused his power for his benefit but the accusations for him to favor “appropriation” of land for his relatives doesn’t add, as I stated previously: simply because such competence belonged to the local govern of the city of Tirana, where mayor at that time was the actual prime minister. And these are not political bias, are facts. He did many shits where in my opinion there is enough evidence to convict him, rather than accuse him for appropriation of land, which as I stated doesn’t add for abvious reasons. I would rather have him convicted for the bad things he did rather than some stupid shit where he can get out with a bail.

You asked for “how many are convicted” and I literally told you half are in arrest, and others under investigation. But since you want numbers, 4 ex ministers convicted, more than 7 city mayors convicted, can’t remember the number exactly. And quite a few deputies, also 1 of them for international drug trafficking. Now 4 ex ministers under investigation, 3 of them under arrest for intimidating witnesses and trying to tamper with proofs, the one that is not arrested from these 4, is not arrested only because the parliament led by the current prime minister refused to remove her immunity.

And yes I do think US ex-secretary is corrupt, for which he was impeached out of his position by the congress, and yes I do think labeling some 80 years old non-grata for corruption after 11 years he is off from any public position when the actual prime minister has many of its important officials in jain and the other half under investigation for corruption is complete non sense and hypocrisy.

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clib@reddit

Maybe read it again, those are not political biases are what actually happened, and as I can see you are pretty good on researching the internet to get information, I think you are able to get the “link” you are asking yourself. I gave an article of outside media source that I am sure if you cared to read it to the end they also included the part of the FBI high official conviction. But even if they wouldn’t have included it in the article, a simple search of his name in google and you can read all about that in wikipedia (as I see you can read wikipedia).

Once again please post a link for your claim that the prime minister is under investigation in the US. Please post a link of the conviction of the FBI official which mentions accepting bribes indirectly from the prime minister.I searched and i didn't find links for those claims.Since those are your claims please provide facts.

Please provide links for your claim that the opposition leader was arrested right before the elections.Provide date of arrest, date of elections and reason of release.Answer if he was found guilty or not.

I also didn’t say the opposition leader isn’t corrupt or bad, I actually stated the opposite.

That invalidates all that wall of text you wrote accusing Blinken of being corrupt. So Blinken and the UK were right to designate that guy non-grata for significant corruption.

so if USA or UK deemed him non-grata for corruption, could they at least provide these claims and proves to the current justice system so he can be incarcerated?

No.The USA and UK are under no obligation to provide your country's justice system with anything. These are matters of US & UK national security and it is their business who they designate non-grata. But you already admitted that the non-grata guy is a corrupt pos so you shouldn't have a problem with that.

But since you want numbers, 4 ex ministers convicted

In how many years of government? And what has been the total number of ministers in the government during those years? How come a justice system that takes shots at the government is also "prosecuting" the opposition leader right before the election for what you call "nonsense"?

And yes I do think US ex-secretary is corrupt, for which he was impeached out of his position by the congress

Please provide a link for your claim. With the date of impeachment and removal of US secretary of state.

yes I do think labeling some 80 years old non-grata for corruption after 11 years he is off from any public position

So the guy that you admitted that is corrupt and bad, shouldn't be labeled so because he is 80 years old and because he no longer holds a public position.Solid logic dude. /s

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RayanPenber@reddit

Dude, you are tiresome, if the USA feels the necessity to make open declarations and interfere in the matters of what General Prosecutor investigates and what not, and is worried about “bussines climate” of their “partner countries”, where they have invested hundreds of millions of $ for the justice system and they go even a step further of declaring people non-grata, the least they can do is provide evidence for their “partner contries” so they can conclude it. They seem to do all the steps except the one step that is crucial and decisive.

Blinken was impeached for removal of his position, impeachment is a political process, does not equal to legal process or direct removal from position. Same process was used for Trump like 3 times. And once again, as I said above all this is easily googled, you can “draw out” your own links.

The logic is that a 80 year old guy who holds no more any public position for 11 years is deemed non grata, and a current one who every term is having 4 or more high officials arrested for corruption for like 12 years is deemed trustworthy.

And don’t talk about logic because you and logic seem to follow opposite directions.

For any further questions and clarifications with “links” you can take my words verbatim and google them.

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clib@reddit

>It was entirely political by the previous administration

What does that even mean? Significant corruption is significant corruption.

>the current prime minister is part of an investigation in US regarding a high Official of FBI accepting bribes from different countries to diminish the oppositions.

Interesting.Can you please post a link to your claim?

>The most important leaders of opposition were arrested right before the last elections, one which is still currently being held still in prison, while the other that is non-grata, was held in house arrest for months.

What is the reason for their arrests?Are those arrests related to corruption?

>The fact almost every high official of this government/party is in investigation for massive corruption with public investments, like hundreds of millions of corruption, and somehow the prime minister wasn’t “aware” that his ministers (everyone of them) was “stealing” under his nose…

So the other poster mentioned the year 2013. How many of these high officials have been convicted of corruption so far? Are you accusing that prime minister of corruption himself or accusing him of turning a blind eye on corruption ?

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karma_lama_big_dong@reddit

Anyone seeing a pattern in the Balkans?

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No-Introduction44@reddit

Remarkably succint and correct.

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gem4ik2@reddit

It’s so funny how these charts correlate with timeline of these countries relationship with globalists and sovereignty of these countries. Basically answer to your question is - because Serbia is sovereign and do not let Soros, Bloomberg and all their friends in.

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Veselyi_Kazhan@reddit (OP)

How does Serbia ban letting Soros in?

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gem4ik2@reddit

He fights back on their protests and not only protests - late 2025 there were raids in Soros’s NGOs (CRTA, Civic Initiatives and some others). He makes sure to stay in power, like a true independent leader of the state. He is basically, an early version of Putin. Just for an explanation, globalists like to spawn a million puppet candidates in EU and rotate them in power every 4-5 year and call it “a democracy”. Like in Germany or France, I guess those were the worst examples of globalist infected states.

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Veselyi_Kazhan@reddit (OP)

What did he find in the Soros NGO raid?

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gem4ik2@reddit

As far as i know, there are multiple money laundering cases are open. If you are interested, you can do a research.

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Veselyi_Kazhan@reddit (OP)

Wow. Money laundering of what criminals?

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gem4ik2@reddit

As far as i know, there are multiple money laundering cases are open. If you are interested, you can do a research.

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Incvbvs666@reddit

This is not a corruption index but a 'corruption perception index.'

Literally how much people, at least certain people, THINK there is corruption in the country. And whose opinion is the one that is tallied? Why of course the opinions of western-oriented (not to mention financed) NGOs.

Vučić was completely OK when he was perceived to be pro-west. His rankings very much slipped in conjunction with distancing himself from the west. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has drastically increased pressure on Serbia to recognize the western-backed secession of Kosovo. In fact, the opposition has been whipped up into a hysterical anti-Vučić frenzy in the last two years.

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OveHet@reddit

In fact, the opposition has been whipped up into a hysterical anti-Vučić frenzy in the last two years

Poor Mr Vucic :( Lmao

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Incvbvs666@reddit

No, poor us. For the n-th time in our history, we're being duped. I don't care about what happens to Vučić one way of another, but a society that is so easily whipped up in such a frenzy is a society that can easily be manipulated. Do you realize what a serious attack on our country it was for schools to close down for almost a year?

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Top-Major6123@reddit

Do you realize what a serious problem corruption and non existent rule of law is to the country (not to mention other problems)? Devastating effects can already be seen in demographics. A single brain drain individual is a catastroph for the state.

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Incvbvs666@reddit

Do you realize what a serious problem corruption and non existent rule of law is to the country (not to mention other problems)?

No, it isn't. Corruption isn't a function of morality but economics. When you're poor, you have corruption in your society. When you get richer, it becomes smaller.

Devastating effects can already be seen in demographics.

There is not a single country in Europe that isn't struggling with demographics. Are the likes of Sweden, Switzerland or Netherlands 'corrupt'? Their birth-rates are even worse than ours!

A single brain drain individual is a catastroph for the state.

Sure. If you think Serbia is such a sh*tty country, feel free to leave it.

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Top-Major6123@reddit

Corruption isn't a consequence of bad economic development, it's the cause of it. Strenght of the state institutions and rule of law is directly correlated to economic power and development (see Why nations fail).

Essentially coruption is a negation of the free market and competition and goes along kleptocracy, partocracy and state capture.

Demographic argument is absurd, as Serbia's problem isn't (only) low birth rates but high emigration (especially of high skilled workers). In the period from 2013 to 2024 around 500k Serbian citizens emigrated only to EU. Do you have such statitstics for the aformentioned countries?

Denying reality is surely going to help the country? My statement was only factual.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

This is literal bullshit, you will believe anything those swedes that run the bullshit nobel prize in economics tell you to believe.

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OveHet@reddit

Do you realize what a serious attack on our country it was for schools to close down for almost a year?

Lol repeating regime propaganda, not that I'm surprised.

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No_Magazine_6806@reddit

You are talking about "corruption perception index" which has nothing to do with "corruption".

They might sound the same but any perception can be influenced by media, politicians and external factors, nor measuring any "index" is hardly the most well defined statistical measure.

I was just reading about an "index" that measures how xenophobic people are and it was based on facts like "people have "wrong" perception of migrant crime", "gypsies" etc which was explained that "media" and especially "social media" is distorting the reality vs perception.

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Incvbvs666@reddit

I am always extremely sceptical when people research 'perceptions' of things as opposed to actual concrete measures of these things. It is a sign that truth is less important than propaganda and swaying the public opinion.

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OtherwiseAd4106@reddit

Corruption perception is very related to actual corruption though since corruption is often facilitated by perceptions that others are doing it and that it is possible to get away with.

And regarding corruption, perception stats are the absolute nr. 1 stat used in research and comparisons because other stats are very hard to get by.

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Defiant-Strength2010@reddit

Yeah, in fake sciences

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No_Magazine_6806@reddit

There is a lot of studies that "perceptions" are quite often totally different than the "reality". 40% of French people claim that there are more illegal immigrants in France than legal immigrants meanwhile the actual estimate is 700.000 illegal immigrant vs 9 million legal. French think that 30% of population is foreign, the reality is 10%.

The only exception in "perception of corruption". That shows the reality.

Majority of Americans literally think 30% of US population lives in NY :-)

PS. Being a mathematician/physicist by education (not profession) makes me in general quite suspicious about a lot of studies which clearly are not done in a way that can justify the conclusions (causation vs correlation vs coincidence etc etc).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-think-minority-groups-are-bigger-than-they-really-are/

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No_Magazine_6806@reddit

There is a lot of studies that "perceptions" are quite often totally different than the "reality". 40% of French people claim that there are more illegal immigrants in France than legal immigrants meanwhile the actual estimate is 700.000 illegal immigrant vs 9 million legal. French think that 30% of population is foreign, the reality is 10%.

The only exception in "perception of corruption". That shows the reality.

Majority of Americans literally think 30% of US population lives in NY :-)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-think-minority-groups-are-bigger-than-they-really-are/

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ChonHTailor@reddit

It did?

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vasjpan002@reddit

I think the passive aggressive middle eastern culture is to blame. Maslow Needs Hierarchy also explains - folks demand better government when they feel safe and not hungry,

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Catman_192@reddit

Because someone did everything to make this country one of the most corrupt ones. And did you notice a huge jump last year, this just proves that he does everything to stay in power and is currently on bad position, which is probably good, because this is the sign that we can get rid of him.

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Kaer__Morhen@reddit

Someone? You mean our people? Don't fool yourself thinking there is a "higher power" that dictated that for us, yeah I guess now there is one but it wasn't present before 2012 and after we parted ways with Montenegro

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Western-Society-4030@reddit

step by step with russia :D

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Delicious_Star8752@reddit

Damn people in NGOs don't know how X axis works, yet they bitch about corruption hahahaha

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GoHardLive@reddit

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THEDANILO664@reddit

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Syrmin@reddit

This dude is synonym for corruption

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KaradjordjevaJeSushi@reddit

Sjajna upotreba AI. clap-clap.

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mala_neveshta@reddit

🐱mouth

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Topias12@reddit

you need first, to read how they are calculating corruption,
as corruption isn't a natural occurring phenomenon but rather a result of how humans run countries,
thus an action that is corruption may not be calculated as a corruption,
for example,
in a hypothetical country X,
if a lobby gives money, without a receipt, to a politician in order to make to change a law, then it is corruption
if a lobby gives money, with a receipt, to a politician in order to 'support' the election campaign, and later that politician decides to change a law that will help that lobby, isn't corruption

in late 2024 this happen, there was no proper investigation and multiple protest as a result you see the fall in 2025
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Sad_railway_station_canopy_collapse

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thanasis87kav@reddit

They used to be a proper balkan country

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Hour-Promotion-2496@reddit

Lower is better

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Deriviera@reddit

Ummm, no? Rank axis - lower the worse

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Hour-Promotion-2496@reddit

I mean lower number (rank) is better.

Because the comment "They used to be a proper balkan country" doesn't make any sense as they are actively getting worse

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Intrepid-Photo-6178@reddit

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Ivanhegeelkadi@reddit

Picousti kriminalac

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legendarymember@reddit

Yall still falling for western NGO bullshit

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Unfair-Frame9096@reddit

The fact that Ukraine is improving really makes me trust this ranking.

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InCloud44@reddit

Because Vucic and Ruzzia!

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Smart_Pomegranate825@reddit

How much time do you have? 😂

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Wide_Vast1937@reddit

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Junior_World_2796@reddit

I’m from Russia, but I’ve been living in the EU for quite a while, and it was a surprise to me that many issues can be solved with money here. In Russia, this is not possible, and the level of corruption shown for Russia on this chart is a big misconception.

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Shone_Shvaboslovac@reddit

It didn't. None of these measures are in any way objective. It's just a barometer of how pissed off the Euro-USA elite is with any given country.

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rintzscar@reddit

If any Serb is wondering why your country is shit, this guy and the others like him are the reason.

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Shone_Shvaboslovac@reddit

Don't get me wrong, Serbia is corrupt as shit, but so is the US. They just legalized it and called it lobbying.

And the relative comparisons are all a joke. It's incredibly difficult to be remotely objective. All these lists and indices are compiled by academics tied to government universities, which makes them beholden to the political and economic elites who run those governments. What exactly is so controversial here?

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rintzscar@reddit

Serbia is corrupt as shit, but so is the US. They just legalized it and called it lobbying.

That's the understanding of a 10-year-old who just learned what the word lobbying means and is now "deep" about it.

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MrOphicer@reddit

Have you lived in the US? Or Europe? Because I lived in Serbia for a while. In Serbia i felt every issue or legal problem I had was a matter of price - Everything could be solved with money. I didn't have even a remotly the same experience in Europe or the US.

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madeinsrbua@reddit

Sure thing buddy, we must not live in a same country then, or you are don't live in Serbia at all

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Shone_Shvaboslovac@reddit

Don't get me wrong, Serbia is corrupt as shit, but so is the US. They just legalized it and called it lobbying.

And the relative comparisons are all a joke. It's incredibly difficult to be remotely objective. All these lists and indices are compiled by academics tied to government universities, which makes them beholden to the political and economic elites who run those governments. What exactly is so controversial here?

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