Do all automakers actually destroy auto show demo cars or is it just a select few?
Posted by t_a_6847646847646476@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 97 comments
Yesterday I was chatting with an Audi Canada rep while test driving the new S5 at the Vancouver Auto Show and he shared at one point that the car would be crushed after they’re done with it.
When I asked why, he told me it was a liability thing since they don’t want to be sued and likely lose over issues coming from the relatively hard lives these cars live (many random people driving them and testing their capabilities). They wouldn’t even reuse them for other things like technical training or donating them to schools for the same purpose.
I asked him if these were pre-production cars but he said they were all production examples, albeit with some functionality disabled specially for this use case as far as Audi Canada is concerned. I was able to confirm that the car I drove had a full certification label with a VIN and Transport Canada mark.
This guy happened to work for GM Canada before he joined Audi and he said they had a similar policy. This is my first time ever hearing of something like this so I’m wondering exactly how common it is (it isn’t) in the automotive industry. I also wonder if the same thing happens to the static display cars they put on the show floor for guests to check out. I have seen ex-press units being sold as used vehicles before (despite carrying similar risks) so I figured the same would happen to these.
bikedork5000@reddit
No. Automakers do not destroy them. Gravedigger does.
itsy05h1eggz@reddit
that'd be a good idea tbh
TempleSquare@reddit
Prototype cars get crushed. They have no VIN. They are built more like an art project than a car.
The real cars that people sit in? Pulled from local dealership stock. They go back to the dealership and get sold as new.
GoBSAGo@reddit
Press cars are either crushed or retained by the manufacturer for their private collection. Obviously the more interesting cars end up sticking around, but they aren’t eligible for private sale.
goosemaster0@reddit
What? I’ve never heard of this happening. Press cars are regular production vehicles ordered by marketing. They are used for the press circuit and then distributed to dealers as used vehicles. Absolutely NOT crushed.
GoBSAGo@reddit
Ironically, I was thinking about Matt Farah driving the Porsche 918 pree car recently. They can’t sell the press car because it was a pre production unit.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a69502662/living-out-of-a-priceless-porsche-918-spyder-prototype-for-a-week/
goosemaster0@reddit
Hardly the same thing. Very odd to me you’d extrapolate that to all press fleet vehicles.
GoBSAGo@reddit
Hey cool, and thanks for taking the time to let me know.
goosemaster0@reddit
No, thank you for spouting random bullshit that isn’t true and then owning up to your mistake. I was going to clown you for driving a CVT WRX but it seems you’ve redeemed yourself. Take care.
GoBSAGo@reddit
Lol, look around at what the thread is talking about.
Then you come in talking about the summer job you had cleaning piss off the bathroom floor at Porsche NA and that I’m talking out my ass.
goosemaster0@reddit
Sr. FP&A analyst but here nor there. Shit job, they sucked.
981 Boxster S + AP2 + Fiesta ST. Want pics?
i_drink_corona@reddit
This is absolutely not true.
Press cars just get sold at auction or go to a dealer for sale direct.
Press cars are normal cars, not engineering cars
BrandanG@reddit
Remember the Roadkill Challenger and Viper that got thrashed off-road. Hot Rod bought them from Dodge and they were driven by Hot Rod and Automobile employees for a bit then the company gave the Viper away.
GoBSAGo@reddit
Depends if they’re preproduction cars or early production cars that are owned by the manufacturer and then sold as used after being press cars. Should have been more specific.
TempleSquare@reddit
Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of a safety issue or liability in that case.
Rather, pre-production cars don't have a real VIN. They never can have a real VIN. So there's no choice but to dispose of them.
Production cars absolutely do get resold. Having a few journalists drive around a car for a few months is no worse than Hertz selling their used rental cars.
hydrochloriic@reddit
All the early prototype cars I work on have VINs, they just have an “X” which means they’re “experimental” and can’t be registered. That’s why they get crushed.
That said even vehicles off the line with legit VINs are often still crushed since the development work harms them more than a buyer would want. Though sometimes there’s “captured test fleet” or “fast feedback” cars that are used for specific complaint evaluation that can’t be modified (like holes drilled, etc) or otherwise harmed, because they WILL be sold to a buyer at a reduced price.
Kiwifrooots@reddit
Also a lot of trade secrets buried in there. Is your 1 million an hour R&D worth selling for $20k
8N-QTTRO@reddit
I'm not an expert, but from what I understand, they either get crushed, donated to a museum, or sold to a private collection with a lot of paperwork being signed.
Another huge issue is that some of these cars are built on unregistered chassis without VINs and they're not always built to withstand extensive driving.
Cool-Permit-7725@reddit
Why not built it to withstand extensive driving in the first place like production car?
GGCRX@reddit
For the same reason they don't put an engine in the clay concept model. It's not needed and would cost extra money unnecessarily.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
It would cost more to customize a car than just yank one from the line, so idk if that part checks out.
GGCRX@reddit
The test mules are made before there's a running line to yank one from...
PaPa_ZeuS@reddit
No, I think this guy knows better then the trillion dollar automotive industry and all the engineers and designers they employee...
goot449@reddit
Because they were the mules used to finalize the production processes.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Because R&D doesn't work that way. They need to test things, make tweaks, etc.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
Yea alot are visually right but may not have all the behind the scenes bits or theyve been setup mules for welding robots and other automated processes so may have extra or lacking welds.
Mimical@reddit
This all seems reasonable to me.
It would make sense that concept/show cars are produced outside certain safety/engineering or QC requirements. It allows manufacturers to create them quicker and easier, but that means they must take precautions against them being used in the public domain.
ihatemybrain69@reddit
This? This is elite comment
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
I'm not sure about motor show cars, but press cars at least do get sold on once they leave the fleet.
There was a famous case of a man in the UK who bought an M3 without knowing it was the ex-BMW press fleet car, until he saw it on BBC Top Gear. Apparently it had a laundry list of issues with it, too.
t_a_6847646847646476@reddit (OP)
IIRC he saw it on Top Gear after experiencing issues and that’s when he found out why
su1ac0@reddit
yes, and IIRC the issue is that BMW sold it to him as a "new" car, which is misleading to say the least.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Depends on the press car. If it's pre-production, it usually gets crushed. I worked for Toyota, and we crushed a whole bunch of pre-production Tundras.
20Factorial@reddit
What kind of accessories?
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
If it doesn't have a proper VIN, it legally cannot be sold in most countries. I suspect it's similar to the prototypes that up being used for crash testing in that regard.
unsaltedbutter@reddit
Think I recall Harry of Harry's Garage figured out the McLaren he bought was a press car because it had all sorts of crazy options.
savageotter@reddit
Bmw dealers bin history tool will show if a car is a press vehicle.
Ghost17088@reddit
TBF, being on Top Gear might have increased the value as long as Hammond wasn’t the on that drove it.
antariusz@reddit
To be fair, all cars involved in accidents and/or fires have diminished value.
TheOsirisOfThisShit_@reddit
A lot of motor show car become press cars. They sit on a stage for the weekend and then the journalists who are already in town for the show drive them over the next few days.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
I'm pretty sure most of them get sold at the end of their time on the press fleet too.
For example the yellow Bentley on sale that was used on the Top Gear Australia special was sold last year.
There's articles online about it but I can't link the domain here because it's on the blacklist.
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TweeksTurbos@reddit
Yes, look into the 2012 saab 9-5 wagons and 2012 9-4x. Saab went bankrupt before they could destroy a few cars and they have survived.
Alex_MC_69@reddit
I discussed that while in BMW plant. They get scrapped, as in a dealer buys all their scrap cars. He then revitalize and sell them as used.
Snandroi@reddit
I work at that autoshow, if you've visited other brands yesterday we might've chatted together. I've worked multiple manufacturers throughout the years, and without exception, unless it's a pre-production car, these cars get sold to local dealerships after the event. Usually through some kind of internal "auction". If there's any defect they get repaired.
Mind you, a usual rule of thumb in these shows is that one day of autoshow equals 1 year of wear on the parts people touch. Just think how many times in a year you get in and out of your car, then how many people a day do the same at the show.
Also, most of these cars are bought by the same local dealership that usually has a bad reputation, knowing the wear and tear of the vehicle but not saying anything to the clients.
thewheelsgoround@reddit
Often via conventional auction - they pop up at Openlane from time to time.
t_a_6847646847646476@reddit (OP)
I was there with a couple friends on Thursday
moistcanyon@reddit
They do not crush test drive vehicles. Literally zero OEM will crush a test drive vehicle. Source: I work for an OEM.
Snandroi@reddit
I doubt they crush their cars honestly, but I haven't worked with them before
TheRealAutonerd@reddit
Auto writer here. As I understand it, most cars have a pilot run, built on the assembly line as they train workers and debug the process. These cars have VINs that are very low, and the cars are used for media loans (especially early launches), engineering, etc. Crash testing maybe, but that strikes me as unlikely as I think it happens earlier in the process. Anyway, the low-VIN cars are not considered saleable units and are crushed. No law that I know of; that's automaker policy, probably for liability and warranty issues. Some automakers do refurbish their low-VIN cars and sell them. Vin 000001 may wind up in a collection if the car is something special, but generally if we see a lot of 0s in the VIN we assume it's going to the crusher. Not always, though... Model X 00002 and 00003 were saleable units, I remember Elon delivering them to customers at the Model 3 unveiling.
At regional car shows, I believe the cars come from dealer stocks and are normal saleable production units.
graverobber1@reddit
As for Alfa Romeo, they get auctioned off. When a client wants the biggest discount and doesn't care for the spec of the vehicle, we'll typically buy one of the cars used for promotional events/autoshows that are currently on auction.
Silent_Patient8454@reddit
Yeah, it’s more common than most people think. The test-drive cars at auto shows and media events get driven hard by hundreds of people, sometimes with launch control, aggressive braking, curbs, etc. Even if they’re technically production cars, the manufacturer doesn’t want the risk of one being sold later and then having someone come back with “this car was abused before I bought it.”
A lot of them get crushed, especially if they had software tweaks, disabled safety systems, or were only approved for temporary use. Static display cars are less likely to be destroyed though those sometimes end up as company cars, dealer demos, training cars, or get sold off later.
Press cars are different because they usually stay within the company fleet longer and are tracked more carefully, so they’re easier to sell later as used.
moistcanyon@reddit
Not true. I work for an OEM and even the test drive units are sent to dealers as additional product for sale.
If it doesn’t have a VIN, that’s a different story.
182arklight@reddit
So in a somewhat related question, who builds these prototypes? Is it done in house or is it a specialty shop that just does prototypes?
whale-tail@reddit
I work at an OEM and we make prototypes in-house. Obviously some manufacturing gets outsourced, but nothing we wouldn't normally outsource.
We generally have separate engineers focusing on prototypes or production cars, though some of the latter (like myself) do work on prototypes or show cars from time to time
182arklight@reddit
Thanks for your answer. I wish there was a documentary on how a concept for a car was built from the ground up. Like where do all the parts come from? And how are they made? I realize that some parts come from already existing OEM parts bin but some are so unique to the prototype I imagine they are one offs?
whale-tail@reddit
All fair questions. I'm no expert but have been involved in engineering a couple mules/prototypes. Generally in earlier stages of development ("alpha"), you have prototypes that focus on either tech/engineering or aesthetics/ergonomics. Later-stage mules will combine both of these domains.
The former are generally existing production cars cut up and retrofitted with custom parts. I'm a chassis engineer, so in my domain, you'll have a cut-up production car with custom suspension parts and chassis/unibody modifications. Depending on what you are trying to test/validate, brakes and springs/dampers may also be custom prototypes. Custom parts are machined, fabricated, or modified production parts, but usually not cast for instance. I would never want to own any former mules lol, but they are neat to work on and test with.
Very early stage aesthetic/ergonomic prototypes often don't have suspension or powertrains at all. The ones that do will use as many off-the-shelf parts as possible for obvious reasons, usually built around a one-off unibody, even if the basic architecture isn't production-representative.
In a lot of ways it's not too dissimilar from how people build their own custom cars, just with a lot more money and engineering depth. I wish I could get into specifics because I've seen some really cool stuff, but it's also all very secretive, which is a big reason why you don't often see documentaries or the like. Sometimes stuff gets tested that doesn't make it to production and companies would rather not share that information. Even internally, only a very limited number of people are exposed to these mules, particularly ones that are representative of the design concept to avoid leaked pics of future products.
182arklight@reddit
Again, I really appreciate your thoughtful and informative answer. It sounds almost like you and the folks involved in this important but little known about industry are in a semi secretive guild, where all the information is proprietary. I've always thought automobile prototype creators would make for an interesting YouTube channel. From design to production. Actually I'm surprised that a manufacturer hasn't gotten behind something like that for a niche concept car to build public interest in a niche community. Thanks again, for your answer and your contributions to the auto industry!
Wirenfeldt@reddit
I would wager in house.. Build familiarity and find flaws and issues before production.. Won’t be nearly as useful if you contract it..
savageotter@reddit
It's both. There are shops that build these. Scouts demo vehicles for example are not built in house.
Some brands have in house teams and still occasionally outsource.
PRSArchon@reddit
This. The whole point of a prototype is figuring out what works for the design. That includes design for manufacturing. You have to built them yourself to learn.
MTLMECHIE@reddit
It is a mix, there are shops in Michigan that build prototypes with the support of in-house design studios. On production vehicles, often some development work can be contracted out.
b3rn13mac@reddit
why not both? in house specialty prototype shop. most manufacturers have enough going on to have a full time team on that front.
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GhostriderFlyBy@reddit
It’s an automatic, so there’s no clutch to fuck up. Dropping gears and flooring it doesn’t hurt the car.
t_a_6847646847646476@reddit (OP)
Yeah I know. What I did was something you’re supposed to do with that car. I’m pretty sure other test drivers may do things they shouldn’t, however.
GhostriderFlyBy@reddit
In your post you said you’re “guilty” of dropping the gears and flooring it.
t_a_6847646847646476@reddit (OP)
To be fair I got up to near highway speeds on an urban road while doing so. There were also cops but I didn’t get pulled over, I think they were just supervising the stretch of road they used for the test drives since people were ripping on many of the test drive cars.
Breakthecyclist@reddit
Kinda similar to why so many are remiss to purchase former rentals. Myself very much included
t_a_6847646847646476@reddit (OP)
Reminds me of the time I rented a minivan and got a brand new Chrysler Pacifica with only 62 km (about 40 miles). After noticing that, I followed the break in procedure for the specified mileage interval before driving it normally. I don’t even like Chryslers, let alone Pacificas but I wanted to give it a chance. Most other renters wouldn’t have done that, some may have even abused it
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Nope, my dads dealership supplied most of the Chevy cars for the Philly auto show lol. They just bring the cars in and take them back to the dealership
CustomCarNerd@reddit
They are SUPPOSED to. Some still slip through the cracks. This has been happening for decades. Museums are filled with prototypes that were considered long gone. The Lincoln Futura turned Batmobile quickly comes to mind.
Individual-Nebula927@reddit
One of the reasons GM now has a vehicle crusher at the proving grounds in Michigan. Likely others do too. The found out local junkyards had been parting out prototypes before crushing them which resulted in some awkward warranty conversations.
Think part failed years down the line, GM gets a picture back from the dealer, and is surprised to find a part no other vehicle has, or should have, because they found the design didn't work well. Which is why it failed. Customer had a 3rd party shop get a junkyard part during a previous repair.
FingerPuzzleheaded81@reddit
That depends a lot on the level of cars that is used. Automakers will usually do two prototype runs even if a vehicle is carryover. The first run (at least in the US) is not legal for resale and must be crushed by us law. It was likely that the press cars used were this level of vehicle.
PRSArchon@reddit
German OEMs typically make A, B,C and D samples. The D samples are essentially the same as the production cars except for minor tweaks in the manufacturing process. A B and C samples are varying in maturity, A being frankenstein barely functional products. I would expect all A B and C samples to either get crushed or some end up in a museum.
FingerPuzzleheaded81@reddit
The other comment matches American oem too with different acronyms depending on the manufacturer. It depends a lot on the scale of the change. For an all new cars it goes along this type of line:
First build: literally cut and weld existing body to get to the correct wheelbase/width. Everything is prototype. These vertices are not for sale and usually not enjoyable to drive.
Second build: more finalized designs, might have some design intent bodywork present. Might be built with processes mimicking actual assembly plant. These vehicles are not available for sale.
First assembly plant build: all parts to be built on their final production line with production processes. Interior parts might not yet have the production finish. These parts do not yet need to have all the testing or other production verifications. These vehicles are not legal for sale.
Second assembly plant build: all parts are complete production parts. These vehicles are available to be sold and usually are leased to employees first for fast feedback.
For carryover cars, they will still do those production line runs. The first run of vehicles will usually be indistinguishable from production cars but are not legal for sale. This is likely what that vehicle was.
ckdx_@reddit
D sample is post-PSW, so it is off-tool off-process. The only thing it might lack is homologation. It’s 100% representative of a production part aside from paperwork.
By definition, C samples are functionally complete but may not be produced using final tooling or processes, but the part design should be finished.
Additionally the vehicles themselves are not considered samples; only the parts that make them up.
PRSArchon@reddit
Thanks for the extra clarification, it matches what i thought but clarified some details i forgot.
ckdx_@reddit
Two prototype runs is not the norm any more; these days there tends to be many smaller builds. I can count 9 independent build phases on a plan I am familiar with, each for different purposes and with different levels of maturity.
Total number of vehicles remains about the same as before.
69McNasty69@reddit
Work for a smaller manufacturer. Quite a few are donated to local fire departments for extraction training purposes.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
Well thats a nice use case for them. Better to train people then crush it than just crush it.
Mercurydriver@reddit
Low key thinking about doing this to my Maverick once it reaches the end of its useful life.
From what I understand, most fire departments (especially in smaller towns and villages) don’t always get to practice extrication procedures on modern cars; they often use junk cars that are 20+ years old. They’re not used to practicing on newer cars with high strength steel, thicker materials, multiple airbags, hybrid/EV systems, etc.
My Maverick has 111k miles on it right now. So it’s not ready to be scrapped yet. But I know that it’ll happen eventually.
badcrass@reddit
I mean it goes to the crusher after the fire department cuts it up
Gedsu@reddit
Apparently your reading comprehension goes with it.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
I can’t speak for all brands, but from personal experience Toyota and Lexus sell cars from their auto shows to customers through dealerships. I have bought an auto show car, and I have helped former customers of mine buy the exact car they had seen at the auto show.
It really depends on the manufacturer, and where the vehicle is at in the design/development lifecycle.
Frosty-Objective-270@reddit
There is a difference between a show/prototype/concept car on a stand, and the village bicycle one on the show floor. A VIN. Also if the auto show is organized by the local/regional dealers,that's where the cars come from.
MagnumMagnets@reddit
Depends. Our work has VIN 001 NSX on display, but it can never be sold and will likely be crushed when it’s done with its display duties. They roll it out and crank it up occasionally but it’s still solidly only used as a display piece
whtciv2k@reddit
Cute lil bugger
edodge2@reddit
Yes, pre-production vehicles also don't need to meet current emissions standards, so they must be either donated (many go to manufacturer based college programs like CAP or ASSET) or they are crushed.
rks1743@reddit
GM gives Blackwings to the Spring Mountain race track for some rough driving by new owners. The cars are put through road courses, autox, figure 8s, 0-60 sprints, and then sold to the public. There is a slight discount as you would expect for a used car but ai don't think I would be brave enough to buy one.
tinyman392@reddit
In the US, outside clear prototypes, the normal cars you see are a local dealer’s stock. Those cars can be sold to customers. I ended sitting in the car at an auto show that I’d be buying a month later.
TempleSquare@reddit
A friend's mom did that. When the Challenger first came out, she told the rep that she "wants this car."
And then had to clarify that she "wants this car."
The local dealership that furnished the car for the auto show was very happy to oblige... after the show concluded.
Marmelkuchen@reddit
I remember some cases with the VW Golf 6r where they accidentally sold some of the pre production cars. After they realized they had to buy back all of them, because they were not road legal. The cars only had minor differences, such as bumpers only fixed with glue instead of brackets. You were NOT allowed to take any part out of it (e.g. the Seats) as they could not guarantee safety. This happened in germany.
MTLMECHIE@reddit
Depends. If it says "pre-production" it will not be sold. In Montreal, I have noticed the delivery dealers written on the sticker of cars they have on the floor. I did look up the VIN of a then new Lexus SUV from a show (several years later) on a public stolen vehicle database, it was my first positive hit.
Chewbaccas_Bowcaster@reddit
Depends on the show, type of show, and product life cycle stage of the car. In the US auto shows often pull from local dealers, they get returned to stock after it’s over. Industry shows tend to use dollar cars handed out to other companies to tinker or do marketing campaigns with. Those generally get crushed after a certain time as they do not have VINs and can’t legally be registered. I worked on a few dollar cars in the past.
ws6ryan@reddit
Crushed, museum pieces, donated to auto tech schools, etc.
Vishnuprasad-v@reddit
At least in my country, India. Most of the press demo cars are kept for road mule testing (new batch parts) or excess units are sold with standard warranty to employees at a discounted price.
I've seen auction of these demo cars used at launch event then sold to dealers for showroom demo usage as well.