Real food security
Posted by foot_down@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 158 comments
This post is intended as food for thought, not a brag so I apologize if it comes across that way.
I'm a history nerd. I also suspect if what's happening in the middle east continues it could lead to a major global famine in the next year or so. If industrialized farming nations cannot easily access fertilizer and fuel their machinery at reasonable cost, the whole system topples. I'm watching people here in New Zealand fill multiple fuel containers at the gas station or feel smug that they have an electric vehicle. It won't help if you can drive to a supermarket...full of empty shelves. Collapse is not necessarily one big moment, it can be a long slow crumble too.
We're homesteaders and have spent nearly 20 years turning just 5 acres into a traditional, minimum external input food system. It's very hard work and takes a long time to learn all the skills but I estimate we could consistently sustain more than 10 people if we needed to really ramp up our production. It's shown me that it's possible it is to feed many people without industrial specialized monoculture, but requires a total rethink and dismantling of the fragile global systems we rely on and make everyone responsible for food, not just giant corporations. Society is sleepwalking into a disaster that no amount of stockpiling guns, rice, beans and medicine will remedy.
So. Here's what our 5acre system looks like, and it could be scaled up massively into a village format:
Solar power, backup woodburner for heat, cooking and hot water if/when system fails. Rainwater tanks. Septic system and compost toilet.
About 30 heritage freuit trees, permaculture planting means seasonal fruit almost all year round. We preserve a lot by canning.
Heritage dual-purpose breed (red poll) house cow, although I started with dairy goats. I LOVE my cow, there's good reason they're sacred in India! She's an adored pet and also my biggest asset. Less milk than commercial breeds: I get 6L or 1.5 gallons/day but she has gentle dairy temperament, hybrid vigor health and is raising a calf plus feeding the homestead by eating almost entirely grass. Steers can also be trained to pull a plow to grow cattle fodder turnips if there was *really* no fuel available.
Just one cow provides a beef calf, milk, yoghurt and I make big wheels of cheese every week using homegrown raw milk cultures. Excess milk (soured) feeds the chickens and cattle manure is shoveled up for the gardens. When we butcher a beast we eat everything including the organs. Internal fat tallow for making soap, cooking fat and skin balms. Dogs get the bones we don't use for soup. We also raise 2 more beef cattle at a time. If really necessary we could progress to making calf rennet for cheese, cure hides for leather, make glue, burn their manure as fire fuel like in India or even build a methane gas system to cook with.
Heritage breed chickens for meat and eggs plus gardens. The coop is divided into two big runs and we rotate them and plant the vacant run with vegetables while they weed, turn soil, eat pest insects and fertilize next seasons garden bed. All food scraps, rotten fruit, preserving peelings, manure, lawn clippings, fallen leaves go into their run to compost. Never had such healthy hens or productive garden before: we harvest in wheelbarrows not baskets. We keep one adult rooster at a time to raise replacement chicks using broody hens and we eat the young roosters. Chickens are fed mostly by free ranging (cant get into the closed garden run), clabbered milk and scraps. If we can't get grain feed anymore we'll make big maggot bins using butchering scraps and pest carcasses for supplemental feed.
Seed saving crops: We focus on calorie dense crops like potatoes, pumpkin, beans etc but also grow plenty of others and herbs for flavor and variety. Again, heritage breeds, not modern hybrid varieties that require you to buy seed each year. From each crop a selection of the best is left to go to seed by tying a ribbon on those plants so they're not harvested. Then their seed is carefully prepared, dried and stored for next year. Seed potatoes are constantly being planted from each harvest. Vegetables alone don't provide enough calories and crop failure would be a disaster if we relied on it alone, so we consider vegetables to be a wonderful by-product of raising the animals that feed us with the most calories and essential fats.
Obviously not all of this is possible in non-rural settings but if even the suburbs were filled with fruit trees, chicken gardens, rabbit hutches, milk goats etc it would be a great head start for national food security. I urge everyone to look into suburban homesteading now before it's too late. You need to be up and running well BEFORE the shelves are empty, so you can then help others get started by sharing your knowledge and skills.
Sure, everyone knows this in principle but the practice is so lacking. Yes it's fucking hard, time consuming labor and if I'm awake I'm working lol. I'm not trying to save the world here, just putting it out there that there ARE every-man alternatives to the current system. I also work a job in town so it's not like I'm just on my soapbox preaching as a retired person chilling on my land. And before the "preppers" here who LARP as Rambo start screeching that they'll shoot me and take it all: cooperation will feed you long term, violence won't. Also we're ex military and fully prepared to defend ourselves and our community if you want to try it.
As a final aside, the best advantage of this lifestyle is that the clean diet, sunshine, fresh air, constant exposure to dirt, animals and manure with lots of physical labor has made us the healthiest of our lives even into our middle age. Immune system on steroids means I haven't seen a doctor in nearly a decade.
Please, please, please put down your phone and go outside, dig any dirt you have access to and plant some potatoes!
Typical_Day_8849@reddit
This is the kind of post that makes you put down the phone and actually go outside. The rotation system with the chickens and the garden is genius, never thought about it that way. Most people prep for 72 hours. You're prepped for the rest of your life. Respect.
gillbeats@reddit
Are you taking newcomers ?
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Not unless you come fit and strong, able to cut a tree with an axe, butcher a large animal, know how to grow crops from seed and preserve, can build a plow from scraps and break in a horse... People new to farming make a terrible mess of everything, accidentally leaving a gate open can be devastating. I know because 20 yrs ago I was a city girl hahaha. BUT if you're a good seamstress or able to fix tools without ordering parts online I'll be happy to trade some food for your skills? Become useful in a post industrial world and you'll be ok 👍
Bruno_Sznajder@reddit
Could you explain a little more your arrangement with cows? I always wanted to have one one day but i think IT could be difficult to produce both Milk and beef. City folk asks ;)
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Sure. A dairy animal is a huge commitment and it's the most difficult and time consuming thing on a homestead.The cow is a heritage dual-purpose breed crossed with a Jersey. She milks well and has a calm temperament like a dairy animal but a thicker beefier body shape. We put a pure beef breed bull over her and voila, beef calf and milk for us.
I don't like the way commercial dairy animals are treated so I do what's called calf-sharing. As the calf grows a bit, I separate them overnight: calf sleeps in a cozy barn pen and she goes to pasture with the herd. Then I milk her in the morning before reuniting them and he milks her all day. She gets to keep her baby and he's fat and healthy milk-fed future beef.
Bruno_Sznajder@reddit
So mother spends her days with other cows? I'm asking because i've heard that cows are intelligent and social, so keeping cow only with her calf, which you slaughter eventualy, seems cruel. I want to know what a cow needs beside food and shelter to grow healthy and happy
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Yes, we have 2 grown beef at a time as well, she's never alone. They're very intelligent and affectionate herd animals so definitely need companionship. She's also extremely bonded to me. I've had her since she was a calf so I'm the boss cow of the herd lol and her best friend too.
Other people cannot go near her calf but I can shove him off her teats or cuddle them both while he's nursing, she nuzzles and licks me and lets down her milk easily for me. If your hand milked cow isn't happy and healthy you'll know: mastitis, kicking tantrums when milking, gives very little milk (because they can hold it back if they want to if they're not bursting). I choose to calf share so her calf grows fast and healthy with mother's love and nourishing milk.
Bruno_Sznajder@reddit
That sounds nice, hope to recreate it one day. Thanks for your response
smsff2@reddit
You are living a typical first-world lifestyle. You consume far more fuel than someone in the city who walks to the grocery store. You are placing a significant burden on the environment, and the planet would not be able to sustain itself if many people adopted your lifestyle.
La-Tama@reddit
People who walk to the grocery store depend on fuel-dependant, worldwide supply chains which are massively more polluting that cultivating your own garden.
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
Than again, the situation might include 'a lot less people' globally..
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Facts. It's a tough pill to swallow though. We have short lifetimes and short memories, but the human race has weathered many catastrophes during It's existence, sometimes causing a major population bottleneck. I love learning about history and prehistory 😁
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Mmm salty sour grapes, yummy! Just out of curiosity, what do you eat and how is it produced and transported to your grocery store that you walk to from your air conditioned apartment? The only fuel I use is driving to town to do my wage slave job. No huge tractors or combine harvester here. That's right, that planet can't support so many humans without massive industrial farms. That's kind of my point and you entirely missed it. Whoosh lol.
smsff2@reddit
I’m not claiming I’m any better than you. I eat the same food from the same grocery stores. But when I grow my own food and try to calculate how much time it takes and how much fuel I’ve spent, I immediately think about how privileged I am by world standards. Modern agriculture is essentially a way of converting calories stored in fuel into a relatively small number of calories stored in food, with very low efficiency. I haven’t invented any alternative approach to agriculture. Whenever I grow my own food, I start to realize that this is just the tip of the iceberg. So-called food production is based on an incredibly complex and interconnected global economy, particularly one that relies on oil refineries. The whole system becomes so complex and so extensive that even a small disturbance can cause it to collapse.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Tip of the iceberg exactly, the modern system is far too fragile and we're seeing it in action now. Its both a blessing and a curse because now most people are helpless beyond belief. Imagine if instead of only growing corn you have some fruit trees and chickens in your yard, as do most of your neighbors. One neighbor has hogs and another neighbor has a few dairy goats and they gave you a chop and some cheese when you fixed up their fence. And you also grow pumpkins, potatoes, beans and tomatoes alongside the corn (which you give to the chickens) by using the chicken gardening system I explained. Now you have eggs, occasional chicken meat, variety of fruit and veges and a glass of milk. Of course you won't live entirely off it but you can maybe afford a bag of corn for your hens, plus a loaf of bread and some barley brought in from the country to add to your rooster soup.
I don't eat from the grocery store at all but I'm not trying to tell EVERYONE to homestead to full food sufficiency. That's wildly unrealistic, I'm well aware I'm blessed to live this way and I've worked very hard at it for decades. But I'm trying to share ideas about the old fashioned way of everyone producing some amount of food that will help to supplement rations as things go downhill. 100 years ago it was normal. Growing food does take an initial time and monetary investment and it's quite hard. At first you suck at it because we're 3 generations now from growing up with it as the norm. But as it all collapses, the status quo of neat lawns and flower gardens HAS to change because some food is much better than no food.
DickCheeseburger1@reddit
I have so many questions but I'll keep this one just to the fruit trees. What fruits, how many or each variety, did you use specific root stocks, ect?
nsphilip@reddit
For those in apartments or who do t have access to arable soil, LED lights are pretty cheap and can provide near-full spectrum light for indoor grows. Monkey hooks can hold 45 or 50 lbs, and you can put pots on the walls !
nvaus@reddit
I think you're kind of talking nonsense in saying rice and beans isn't enough to remedy some impending disaster. What disaster are you imagining? You can stockpile a year's worth of calories for a family of 4 for maybe $500 in rice beans and oil, and those are calories people can't just look over your fence and see. For you to run out of food after going through a year's worth of calories, that would be a scenario where by the end of it 95% of everyone in your community would have already starved to death 9 months previously. Rouge military bands would have gone town to town a dozen times over looking for farms to rob. If society hasn't stabilized by the time a year's supply of food runs out, no one is going to get through it in one piece. Least of all those who are relying on big, easy to spot livestock.
JRHLowdown3@reddit
The answer is DO BOTH. Have a few tons of rice, lentils, hard red wheat, salt and sugar, etc. in LTS as well as growing as much food as you can.
Famine of some sort, maybe short lived always follows large scale disasters. Also when a famine is declared now in say subsaharan Africa, numerous countries, NGOs, ministries, etc. rush to send food aid. What if the magnitude of the event is so widespread that's not possible? I.e, no help is coming and truly YOYO.
I know from living this way, including a year plus we lived solely off of LTS food and what we grew and raised here at home that the rice and lentils will keep you alive, but the fresh peas, beans, broccoli from the garden, the fresh rabbit, the fresh chicken eggs, the fresh fruit from the orchard, etc. goes a long way towards supplementing the basic grains, fills out a lot of vitamin/mineral voids and improves morale.
Historical_Course587@reddit
Counterpoint:
In 1900, roughly 90% of Americans knew how to be self sufficient. They knew some combination of hunting, gathering, and gardening/farming to keep themselves alive if they had to. Today, it's well below 10%. Furthermore, we don't rely on hunters, gatherers, and gardeners/farmers anymore - we rely on supply chains. Supply chains that are years long, assuming nothing goes catastrophically wrong. So you're kind of right, a year later everyone is gonna be dead and food won't be back in stores.
People should garden for micronutrients over macros for the most part. But you should also have a plan to be ready to grow calories next year, because otherwise you're starving just a little bit further out than everyone else.
This is pretty severe survivorship bias. Lots of civilizations have disappeared entirely, or been marginalized to the point where they never recovered themselves. We are globally still losing >10,000 people per day to hunger. It absolutely happens, we just assume that because we are winners and they are losers we couldn't possibly be losers.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
What will you do when your rice and beans run out? Just look back 200 years at how people lived before stores full of rice and beans existed. I think you're full of nonsense too, so that's nice 😊
nvaus@reddit
I'll inhabit and work the land of one of the millions of empty farms where the owners were targeted and murdered for their livestock by the hungry mobs.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Aw sweet summer child. You ever stop to think that farmers might know how to defend themselves, their land and their livestock from mobs of desperate city idiots? And without their generations of farming knowledge and experience you'll find the land unproductive. You'd serve yourself better by being competent at some useful skill and approaching humbly to ask if you can join their community. Or you can be vulture food, whatever.
Willing_Box_752@reddit
Drop the attitude lol
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Yeh sorry. There's a lot of nasty scoffing comments here and I let it get to me a bit. Shouldn't, it's only reddit lol.
Willing_Box_752@reddit
We can practice... Prepare if you will. I can call you a dummy and then you can be unaffected.
Euphoric_Regret_544@reddit
the point stands: your little farm will get overrun by maga militia mouth breathers while the rest of us who have clandestine food stockpiles will be mostly ignored. But, then again, you made a post about a standard homestead set up as if it was the first time anyone’s ever thought of it, so you obviously think that your shit doesn’t stink and more importantly you obviously lack critical thinking skills, so whatever.
FelineOphelia@reddit
You are a class A fool.
Get out of the sun, grandma.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Ah, I see now you're just a troll. Have a nice day!
nvaus@reddit
The mobs you'll be up against will more likely be the remains of the military if history is a trustworthy example. Or warlord militias looking to feed the soldiers of their little empires. If you feel competent to defend yourself in that scenario, good luck to you.
FelineOphelia@reddit
That's exactly the point though. If things aren't restabilized before that, you're both in trouble.
I win. I'm a medical professional with a soft death secured through drugs the rest of you can't get.
But that's only if restabilisation doesn't happen.
2quickdraw@reddit
Before you dig in the dirt you have access to, you need to check whether or not you potentially have Valley Fever residing in it if you reside in inland areas of the entire West Coast and inward.
But yes as a retired person it's a ton of work, and it gets harder the older and more beat up you are. The best I can do is big gardens, a handful of fruit trees, meat rabbits, and quail for eggs. This sure I hope to improve my property with more native plants and by adding a ton of pollinator plants into the garden areas
standard_deviant_Q@reddit
OP is in New Zealand according to their post. Valley Fever shouldn't be an issue.
2quickdraw@reddit
Ohhh my bad! 🤦
Just snakes then.
standard_deviant_Q@reddit
Lol no problem. FYI New Zealand doesn't have snakes either. At least outside of zoos etc.
You should come here (to NZ) on your next vacation. It's a really interesting place although I might be a little biased :)
2quickdraw@reddit
I have thought for multiple decades that New Zealand was heaven on Earth. I always wanted to visit and now I can't afford it and I'm too old. 😭
standard_deviant_Q@reddit
Sorry to hear that!
2quickdraw@reddit
I've made my peace with it, I'm just happy to talk to people who live there, and watch the nature videos.. I love the Maori art and culture, love the land, it's so gorgeous and wild.
CloverEyed@reddit
The challenging part in many suburbs is getting around anti-self-sufficiency bylaws. Rules that you can't have chickens within town limits, or rules that your front yard must be lawn/no produce, etc.
You need to get creative if you want to gain any food security.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Rules smules. Yes, we need to get creative and mostly we need to mobilize en mass. Passive resistance achieves much more than violence. The poor masses are twiddling their thumbs facing starvation only because they're in fear of the tiny minority who govern lol. Do the councils and HOAs have the resources to prosecute entire suburbs? Any system that doesn't work anymore needs to be either changed or overthrown. If the pencil dick bureaucrats tell you that you can't grow food to feed your family are not providing you with that food then they don't have any say in the matter frankly.
Historical_Course587@reddit
HOAs are democracies. People just don't show up. If you want victory gardening baked into the HOA, the process is easy:
Even when an HOA is owned largely by landlords renting, and the landlords have the votes, all you have to do is tailor your pitch to property value sensitiblities and you can get them on board. It just takes work to prove you wont screw up properties, buried utilities, sidewalks.
Muted-Garden6723@reddit
A town near my has bylaws that prohibit chickens, but at this point I’d estimate that 1/4 of houses at this point have chickens. It’s not enforced because nobody, including the municipal officials care if people have chickens.
The funniest part of the whole thing though, is that while chickens are banned, if your property is over half an acre you’re allowed to own pigs. Can’t have chickens because of the smell, but you can own pigs
Glass-Start20@reddit
Yes I 100% agree. We have to be the resistance
PrepperBoi@reddit
Sound proof a shed and have caged chicken/rabbit. Camouflaged goats
2quickdraw@reddit
You can't do that unless you have air circulation which means overturning the air and replacing it, especially with rabbits. Their lungs are extremely sensitive and you can't go over 80° for very long without risking the bucks becoming sterile.
PrepperBoi@reddit
It was a joke
2quickdraw@reddit
Rabbits don't make any noise. I have 40 at the moment. Twelve ready to butcher. 🤷
BrookeB79@reddit
🤭 Sorry, but I'm now imagining a goat with a ghillie suit on. "Oh, don't mind that bush walking around. Here, have some of this artisan cheese. Very local. Very limited."
foot_down@reddit (OP)
😂 Love it!
Cabbage_patch5@reddit
Most people don’t know what a potato plant looks like. You could put them in a flower bed and they would walk right by without noticing.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
N44thLatitude@reddit
There are a lot of books on "edible landscaping". For example, I planted "shrubs" along my front porch. Those shrubs are red and white currant bushes.
Some of the ones I particularly liked (check your local library/used book marketplaces):
- Grow a Little Fruit Tree by Ann Ralph
- Growing an Edible Landscape by Gary Pilarchik
- Edible Landscaping by Rosalind Creasy
- Edible Landscaping by Amy Stross
A lot of folks also really like "Gaia's Garden", but I haven't finished reading that one.
The biggest trick I've learned from this book is to intermix the edible plants with clearly decorative flowers/plants - even if they're edible like hostas, nasturtiums, echinaceas, violas, etc.
BigJSunshine@reddit
Totally
CloverEyed@reddit
Yes! And kale is already used as an ornamental, runner beans have beautiful flowers... you can usually get away with a complete veggie bed even in places where they are banned by simply planting one rose in the middle and giving it a pretty border.
For protein, if chickens are banned, "pet" (meat) rabbits are often allowed. Or you might be able to keep quail.
Though OP is right and it would be better if we could do away with some of the more inane rules.
MissDelaylah@reddit
Definitely. I like to have some native wildflower in my vegetable garden as I find it attracts more pollinators and increases output. Helps it look decorative as well.
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
If i could retire with +/- 3 beehives, i will consider myself lucky..
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
If you walk through 'greenery', the average person passes dozens of both edible and medicinal plants without notiving..
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Love it. Sad truth isn't it?
RootsToShoots17@reddit
Look into “foodscaping” there are a lot of trees, shrubs, and plants that you could replace ornamentals with something they produces food- it doesn’t have to be in boxes and rows. Also “stealth gardening” which is crops that the average person doesn’t even realize is food.
LizDances@reddit
This is a real concern. While I recently moved to the PNW in an area that is VERY friendly to my "food not lawns" proclivities, my previous home in FL was very much not. I found, though, that there were some work arounds: 1. There are laws in FL protecting the right to grow "Florida friendly" plants, which might allow a person with an HOA to get away with planting native edibles despite HOA bylaws, and 2. In my specific county, while poultry including quail were effectively illegal, a complaint could only be brought by a neighbor loving within 250ft of the home. This was easily addressed by keeping quiet quail hens in a rabbit hutch in the lanai, and being quite friendly with our neighbors.
YMMV of course, but take the time to learn "how illegal" the thing you want to do actually is. Read the actual laws, and don't take AI's word for it, as I am increasingly seeing around Reddit and (gestures vaguely).
premar16@reddit
Yep here in the PNW most of us are all about being sustainable and community oriented. I live in an apartment but most of the homes nearby have gardens to some degree. Even in my old apartment people had patio container gardens or access to a community garden. I have seen a lot of lawns (with edible plants) in the front yard and gardens in the backyard. A few of the neighbors have also recently got chickens.
DeafHeretic@reddit
Previous neighbor had quail and sold the eggs/chicks. Had them inside their shop - outside they would get eaten by coyotes/cougars/bobcats/bears. They moved to Montana though. Still got good neighbors though - we pretty much mind our own business.
funklab@reddit
My parents have a very strict HOA. They planted a tomato plant in their front yard and were told they had to dig it up. No vegetable planting allowed in the front yard.
So my dad took an old mop bucket on wheels, filled it with soil and replanted the tomato plant in it. It’s still in the front yard, because the back of the house doesn’t get enough sun. But now it’s in a neon yellow mop bucket, which apparently doesn’t violate the rules. And as an added bonus it’s easy to wheel into the garage overnight to stay warm if there’s a risk of frost.
TheLongPlan@reddit
I have an ornamental garden roughly 6m square that is a patch of lawn with borders. In those borders I have plum, cherry, raspberries, blackberries, blueberries, rhubarb, lingonberry, honeyberry, wineberry, welsh onions, cardoon, lettuce, globe artichokes, red currants, blackcurrants, and a wide variety of medicinal and cooking herbs.
It’s beautifully decorative. Nobody could have a problem with it.
DeafHeretic@reddit
After an HOA gave my mother hell, that increased my avoidance of HOAs. The only thing I have now is a yearly private road maintenance fee ($650 - goes into a fund that is saved for maintenance that happens once or twice a decade or so).
Capstonelock@reddit
I'm from outside the US so we don't have HOAs. What consequences can they bring if you break the rules?
BrookeB79@reddit
Fines, and then if you don't pay those, they'll put a lien on your house. It's insane.
Capstonelock@reddit
Wow, that's a crazy amount of power to hand over to people with no training.
TargetOfPerpetuity@reddit
Yes, but you need to understand just how entitled people who run HOA's consider themselves.
BigJSunshine@reddit
Money and fines and they lien your home if you don’t pay, then they can legally foreclose and take your home. HOAs are the devil
ComplaintOk807@reddit
I have the same problem. My backyard has no light and can’t plant in front. It’s ridiculous.
BigJSunshine@reddit
Your dad is a HERO.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
The lunatics are running the asylum.
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
Yup
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
😅
iloveschnauzers@reddit
Im thinking Rhubarb as a back of the border plant!
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
Yup
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
👍
Beauty_brain1756@reddit
This is amazing. We've got away from any self reliant skill sets and now when the system breaks we are in real trouble. I've started prepping for a garden. I am not able to farm with animalsI in my neighborhood. Im wondering though, if you are in a climate with little rain or they kill our water sources, how can you maintain your garden?
truth_is_power@reddit
no money, no land
just a slave.
Mjslim@reddit
I never feel richer than when I walk out to the garden and grab a few things for dinner. It’s an amazing feeling.
Mysfunction@reddit
I’ve been dabbling in vegetable gardening as a science project for 2 years now, and my focus so far has been on minimal requirements to bring a fruit from seed to harvest, so I’m not getting a lot out of the garden, but I’m still getting enough for it to feel quite rewarding.
We had one day of snow this year (west coast) and there was nothing more satisfying than picking all the ingredients I needed for a salad from my living room greenhouses while watching the snow build up on my balcony.
I’m shifting to a comparison project this spring, following the minimal protocols I established indoors and seeing how yield compares to closer to optimal container conditions on the balcony. I’m really excited for the abundance and ability/necessity to share the products of my labour.
JRHLowdown3@reddit
Yes +1
Also a great way to supplement your LTS foods with fresh nutrients. Made some awesome stir fry this week with 28 year old rice, peas and carrots from the garden and eggs from the hens. Made bread 3X this week from hard red wheat from the 1990's and dry milk from the 90's. Eating the heck out of snow peas, romaine, Arugula and spinach from the greenhouse.
Some delicious home raised rabbit, 1990's rice, fresh peas and brocolli from the greenhouse- a lot of rabbit to eat in one setting-
s1gmanet@reddit
i feel ya on the HOA stuff... i just started a small container garden on my balcony instead. it's not much, but even those little herbs make a difference! plus they look nice, so win-win.
BrainSqueezins@reddit
Water is going to be the limiting factor for many, if not most people. It's the one weak link that cannot be got around.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Sure, but this is not a "save everyone" post, it's a thought exercise and call to action. Go find some water.
MoxieGirl9229@reddit
And rain water collection…
Muted-Garden6723@reddit
Can’t stress this enough, I have a well, but that can still run out on particularly dry years. I didn’t have water for a month last summer, some of my neighbours went 4 months without water
I need to put rain water collection in like yesterday, but we keep getting a foot of snow dumped on his every other week
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Kind of the obvious one unless you live in a desert, right? And even a good filter jug and some puritabs will improve city rainwater for drinking.
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
It might not just be about finding water.. It's probably going to be about making sure that water is potable/safe to drink..
Additional_Insect_44@reddit
Copper helps
cestmoi2022@reddit
I admire people like you and , as a city dweller, I am green-eyed. I finally have a balcony (I rent) and we are strictly prohibited to have anything on it, so I have been trying to figure out what, if anything, i could disguise as a flower(s).
I do wish to mention that it is not so much (or, rather, not only) the hungry neighbors that you need to be concerned about (most people will barter)...it is the government. Since you are a history buff, you may recall that in 1930s during the period of the collectivization in the Soviet Union, the wealthier peasants (kulaks) were murdered, "relieved" of what they owned, and deported or executed. In 1950s post WWII, my grandfather's one and only horse was expropriated by the government. I hope that we never see such times again...
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Thank you. Good on you thinking about waysvto produce some amount of food. If I was in the city I'd focus on stockpiling staples and learning other valuable old non-industrial skills that could be bartered for food if necessary.
I'm more into ancient and classical history. So I'm not quite so familiar with the more recent government atrocities, although vile behavior by ruling elites seems to be one consistent theme through history. As a kid I read Gone With the Wind and the war and post war periods at Tara really stayed with me. That is truly the stuff of my nightmares and I don't really know how we prep for that kind of thing tbh...any ideas?
Nearby_Impact_8911@reddit
Don’t you gotta keep the cow preggo to get milk? Btw love what you’re doing it’s so much easier to grow stuff in your climate.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Thanks. Definitely have a climate advantage and volcanic soil is great. Just comes with risk of big earthquakes and eruptions though lol. Also subtropical climate means weeds and pest insects grow just as well as our vegetables! Yes we breed once a year but depending on the cow she can milk through. Our neighbors have bulls for service so it's not an issue, except tracking her cycle and rushing her to the bull at the right window can be a challenge. There's so much to learn to produce food in any climate or location, that's why I'm urging people to srart now.
SheistyPenguin@reddit
Sub/urban anti-farming laws aside, this is probably the biggest obstacle for most people. To feed a family with the contents of your back yard, would basically be a full-time job and then some. For it to take any less effort, you need dedicated machinery and then you're basically running a commercial farm with all the energy inputs that requires.
BUT it certainly isn't an all-or-nothing proposition, and it doesn't need to cost less for it to be a good idea.
I consider backyard gardening/homesteading to be more like food insurance: some cost up-front, but it's another way to ride out a food crisis. Anyone with backyard chickens may have never noticed the spike in egg prices shocks brought by the last bout of bird flu. Now I'm sure our backyard flock of 6 hens costs more over time than a temporary price shock: but the benefit was that when eggs were scarce, we had them and could produce more of them- whereas others would need to pay up or go without.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Well the math doesn't math if you're buying in loads of soil and fertilizer, new seedlings, buying a new prebuilt chicken coop and only commercial feeds etc. Exactly right, it's an insurance premium! And as you improve your systems it returns on the investment long term. There's a major lack of initiative in modern society. But if there's no affordable food in the stores the math will suddenly start mathing a whole lot better I reckon! That's why animals and gardens work together to create good soil. The thing that giant monoculture farming has lost along the way. Feed your soil not your plants and everything improves. You can water glass eggs to keep them or buy powdered. Not great but edible.
YellowCabbageCollard@reddit
That's amazing. I only have 1 acre here but I realize I don't have the stamina to manage much more. We recently bought milk goats and are finishing up a small barn. We have a small orchard out back and the front of our hill has pear and fig trees, a couple of dozen blueberry bushes and now some tea camellias and arbequina olives that haven't produced yet. I planted muscadines and kiwi on the fences around our gardens. We have had to fence most things in due to the deer population increasing and encroaching each year.
We also have a decent size chicken coop and run but it's old and not near as organized as what you have going on. I'd love to improve on it eventually. We have an incubator with chicks started to hatch out today of all days. I plan to start another batch as soon as these are hatched an in the brooder. I can not believe how expensive baby chicks are now. My former cheap poultry company is now as expensive as the rest are. :/
I am working on some solar. And it's been a dream to have a woodstove. I'm not sure I can get it all done in time. I don't have a well but I live near one of the largest man made lakes in the US and our governor got the law changed so we don't have to keep sending unlimited water downstream to people who chose to build in dry and arid areas and planned to rely on our water. The last drought we had we had to prioritize sending them water over us locals who actually pay taxes on all this. And that is quite frankly stupid. I don't feel responsible for people who build in areas out of state that aren't conducive to living in. And I'm really glad our governor managed to change that legally.
I keep a VERY deep pantry because I don't have room to grow grains. But a few years back we weighed what we grew and we were able to harvest over 2,000 lbs of produce in a 3 months period. And we can grow a decent amount of food through the winter as well. And I have basically all the set up to grow whatever we need. Hoop house houses and greenhouse plastic, pvc hoops and covers for all my raised beds in winter. Massive grow light set up inside and hundreds of reusable trays and six packs etc Seeds for years and we are working on saving more of our own.
Now I need to work on putting aside at least 6 months of animal feed...I just bought and had delivered the storage containers. I also started growing sunchokes last year as a back up food source for us and the animals.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Honestly I think one acre can be just as productive as 5 if it's managed well, and it sounds like you certainly are well on your way. Milk goats are a whole thing, welcome to hell. You're going to love it (and at times hate it lol). Dairy animals quickly become your best friends and they're so much work. Are you going to make cheese?
Maybe keep a rooster from your hatchlings to breed your own. All you need is a broody hen, which the heritage breeds do and new layer hybrids don't. I encourage you to take a spade to the chickens coop once they've been there a while and turn one lump over. You'll be amazed at the soil they create. Buying animal feed is gonna be a problem I suspect, especially for small farmers so buy asap. And it's great you're in nind to grow your own feed to replace it.
Our wood stove is not a range with an oven, it's just a normal fireplace but has a cast iron flat top for pots and pans. It'll do in a pinch, we do our soups and stews and boil the kettle on it all winter.
BigJSunshine@reddit
Eh, I just spent $300 on fertilizer for my citrus, nut, fig avocado trees my olives and tomatoes. Grow your own, and keep a solid pantry of beans, pasta and lentils.
Remember: you don’t have to be the fastest, just faster than 60-90% of the rest, to pit run the bear
dragger0975@reddit
If you’re on septic, see about routing your leech field to your orchard.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Sound advice. Urinate around your citrus trees and chickens/rabbits/goats produce great compost and fertilizer too. Some diehards even hot compost their own manure for fertilizer (Humanure Handbook) although I'm not quite down with that yet lol. I do chuck the dog poo to the base of our shelter belt trees though. Don't waste nutrients! That's why I'm trying to push integrated permaculture systems of animals and plants rather than buying in fertilizer.
Derfel60@reddit
Im sceptical how much actual food security you have on 5 acres. I assume you dont have a bull so for a start youre relying on outside factors for milk and beef production. Then youre feeding a pair and 2 additional beef cattle plus chickens plus dogs. I assume you buy feed for all of them as otherwise it would take almost all of your land and/or your dogs would be very sick. I dont know if you grow grains so you may also rely on the outside world for those.
Dont get me wrong, youre doing better than plenty of people (myself included), and the concept is the right one, but true food security takes quite a lot of land. Ive estimated 20 acres is around the minimum per household but obviously that depends on the land, climate, etc. Im not sure most countries could support their current population sizes given those land requirements.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Absolutely correct, we're not 100% there yet but it's a start. We don't really eat grain ourselves, I do much better on just animal foods, fruit and veg personally. Although we do store buckets of rice for dire starvation rations too. Our pasture here is lush volcanic soil and we stock low and manage grazing carefully so no problem keeping the cattle fed. Not growing grain leaves more grazing, we have 5 acres and use every inch, even copice the shelter belt trees for a mineral supplement for cows.
Look at Suburban homesteading and you'll see you can grow a lot in small intensive systems. It's a rethink, modern society wastes so much because it's been easy days for too long, we've forgotten how to really farm.
I'd like to add that "SELF sufficiency" is a total misnomer because it actually requires a strong local community. Our neighbors (friends) have bulls and a service costs us inviting them to dinner with a wheel of cheese to take home. We all share skills, tools. produce and excess seedlings in our rural neighborhood. It's a small trade based economy and everyone benefits. BTW I'm not predicting total system failure, just very expensive short rations, like WW2 perhaps...hopefully.
I buy some grain for the cow but keep it minimal, it's more a treat for being generous with her milk. If I can't get any grain I'd have to wean or butcher the calf earlier than I prefer to keep her a healthy weight. Chickens again get a little grain but with free ranging they eat lots of bugs, especially ticks yay! so it's only supplemental. Maggot farming (eeww lol) is my backup plan for chooks.
Our dogs hunt and eat a lot of rabbit and possums, which are pests here. It would definitely be difficult without buying in any feed for them but they are important part of our homestead so we'd have to ration them some of our food and we'd probably all be more thin than we currently are!
Derfel60@reddit
Its more than a start, youre doing miles better than 99.9% of people. And i agree with you that people should be growing more food, and used to do just that. Ive had discussions with my grandfather about how he would raise meat rabbits and chickens in addition to growing fruit and veg as a child/young adult during and even after the war. That was living in a house with maybe 100 square metres of garden maximum.
When calcing and making predictions i found dogs to be the most resource-intensive animal to feed truly self-sufficiently. They need to eat a lot of organ meat for nutrients which realistically means either a lot of rabbits or chickens, though as you seem to have a good community around you you may be able to get some from other people when they butcher their own cows or other livestock as most people dont really like eating organs. Obviously if theyre already hunting wild pests that will help a great deal too.
But to get back on track, how do you think we could best encourage people to grow their own food? Do you think it needs to be government incentives? I personally love growing my own food and the peace (and of course produce) i get from it but when i talk to my mates they seem to think its boring or a waste of time.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Yes, dogs are probably a net loss but like all our animals they are part of our family ❤️ Yup you've got it! Talk to the last remaining oldies about the wartime techniques because that's where we're headed. And start practicing the skills you can now because in 20 years of homesteading we've had so many failures. Goats escaped and ate the garden, crop failed due to weather or pests, how to help a sick animal. These things are disappointing but have less impact and can be fixed when there's still shops full of produce and medical supplies. If you fully depend on them it's devastating.
I frankly don't think the governments are going to take care of us or incentivise sustainability until it's too late because they are lobbied by big agriculture not to.
Lobby locally to run the HOAs and councils out of town tarred and feathered! Grow your food and tell the stickybeaks to fuck right off.
I think pointing out the obvious problems ahead and the solution to your friends and neighbors is key, especially the ones in walking distance. And start doing it yourself to lead by example. As prices rise and shelves empty more people will jump on board. And then it's education and lending a hand or a shovel. I personally won't be feeding everyone from my small farm but I'm very happy to act in a coaching role and will share any excess I have. I'm happy to teach anyone how to train a heifer and handmilk, make cheese, what vegetables to plant when. How to prune a tree or trim a hoof. And I fully expect when it's too late everyone will start trying these things without a clue so much help will be needed.
Bless you. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.
MoxieGirl9229@reddit
Dogs are a great security system. I’ll always have a good sized dog.
I think many people are on here thinking about an all or nothing approach. Community is key here. If everyone ‘specializes’ in something… meat, high protein/nutrient vegs, items such as metal work, leather work, mechanical & house repair, alternative fuel sources… this is how it’s always worked. Everyone does a few things well that are different from their neighbors. They all work together for everyone to benefit.
Thank you for posting.
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
To prep means learning how to survive solo (max 3 people) on the move.. Good luck with your cozy farm..
premar16@reddit
COmmunities have existed since the beginning of time. If you look at real disasters they survived because they built a community. People do everything on their own. There has always been small markets, specialist is some area, people to lean on.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
To prep means to be PREPARED. You can define it further however you like.
Yep. I could do that, ex army. We have evacuation kits for local disasters. But I'd really rather not if I don't have to ya know? Hate to break it to you but humans are social creatures and don't do well long term without a tribe or a village. You can't be secure without a sentry to mind your camp, and that leaves 2 people to find food and do all the other survival tasks. Where are you moving to?
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
When the resources are low.. Who you going to call? Your starving sentry? And 'army', i'm not talking war. Evolutionary psychology: Every man for himself. Go ahead, lead a group of (let's say 10) and see how it goes when 1-2 are starving, one is wounded and another one wants the woman that isn't his. Final thought: "You're an optimist.".. I don't prep for that..
TheLongPlan@reddit
Your first mistake was teaming up with a misogynist who thinks he has ownership over women.
FelineOphelia@reddit
On the move is so dangerous
Derfel60@reddit
Thinking you can survive solo on the move is nonsense. No human ever, in the history of mankind, lived that way. You can survive in a group on the move or you can survive solo but settled.
If you choose to survive in a group on the move that means you need to have generations worth of knowledge and skills from having done it, which neither you or i or almost anyone else alive today has, and you need a massive tract of virtually untouched land full of prey and other resources, which exist in very few places on Earth now.
If you choose to survive solo but settled, then you need a relatively large tract of land and decent knowledge acquired over 10+ years of doing it, which is possible for you and i to achieve.
The best chance for survival though, is to survive in a group thats settled, like OP is doing.
CalamariAce@reddit
There's a pretty wide range of outcomes between the status quo and having to be 100% self-sufficient. Being partly self-sufficient will still be a big help in less-than-worst-case scenarios.
Derfel60@reddit
Youre right. I would personally call those outcomes living robustly rather than self-sufficency or food security though.
JRHLowdown3@reddit
Love the little bit of honesty about suburban living situations re: Hoa nattzzees. Remember these are the people that some here think they will survive with if things get bad- and it's unrealistic to ASSume that old Ms. Clara Bitchalot head of the HOA won't try to exercise leadership of your little cul de sac "community" then as she does now. "Dig up your lawn for a garden! You can't do that, the RULES say..." Seriously, how are you going to deal with that? Go along with it and not grow food? If Clara falls on a knife 19 times backwards that kinda ruins your little "kumbaya" we will all work together plan so that's not an option.
Typical HOA bs-
*Gardens restricted
*No homestead animals
*No rain catchment
*Aesthetic issues regarding outside sheds (storage), surely water tanks would be verboten,
*Are actual sturdy fences even "allowed?"
*Is solar allowed or an "eyesore?"
Couple these "restrictions" with the fact that these areas are completely system dependent typically- water, power, etc. How does one plan to make a viable go of it LONG TERM in these areas? Long term not "tuesday afternoon" or whatever.
i-call-your-bluff@reddit
Learn how to hunt and fish and maybe trap and how to forage
HillTower160@reddit
There are not nearly enough wild beasts for everyone. Even in a rural area, shooting anything with 4 legs will be over with very soon.
i-call-your-bluff@reddit
Another reddit keyboard warriors that don't have a fucking clue
Euphoric_Regret_544@reddit
no, you are the one without a clue. It is a very easily verifiable fact that rural areas would be hunted clean, quickly.
HillTower160@reddit
😆🤡
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
Basic skills.. I would even add 'scavenging..
Eredani@reddit
One thing to remember is that everything is easy/obvious once you understand it or have experienced it. To the gardeners, farmers and homesteaders food production is workable. They have the time, space, skills, resources and experience to make it work.
For everyone else, it's jobs, kids, commute, school, bills, the grind of every day life. Maybe the best we can do is store beans and rice with some canned meat.
Not everyone, not even 5% of people can ever hope to be self sufficient or even truly food secure. The folks who push this agenda as the one true path perhaps dont understand what life is like for the average person stuck in a crappy job, living in a crappy house/apartment, struggling to make it to next pay day.
Homesteading is great, just not achieveble, scalable or sustainable for 95% of people.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
It's not the one true path where you produce everything yourself! It's about many people making small changes to protect our future as a whole. Learn to produce what you can and especially waste nothing. Humanity is here today because of these traditional skills and now we've become helpless babies.
The defeated attitude is the real killer. What you prioritize will be what happens for you. Do you ever watch TV or browse reddit? There's some leisure time and growing vegetables is much more soothing than blobbing with a screen. Do you realize I grew up in the city? No one has ever gardened until they pick up a damn spade. WW2 they had Dig for Victory campaigns.
No one is fully self sufficient, but the more people who get on board with urban homesteading the better society will weather what's coming. Yes of course store some food, that's better than nothing. But if you live in an apartment and can't possibly garden or raise chickens, then try to learn useful post-industrial skills that people will swap for food.
JRHLowdown3@reddit
This is a real problem here and with the current crop of "preppers" in general. Overthinking the wrong things, underthinking what is important.
I will spend most of the day today with some like minded friends shooting long distance, tomorrow I will drive 5 hours to practice combatives for a few hours. In between, I'll be back out in the greenhouse for a bit and moving some more tomato and pepper starts to one of the garden areas.
You need food storage as well as food production, you need regular training and practice as well as just "having" a weapon or two for defense. Being well rounded in survival encompasses quite a bit of training, practice, etc.
Growing as much of your own food as you possibly can is important to any serious survivor. If your in the suburbs and that just means a small garden so be it, get started and get that necessary EXPERIENCE that does NOT come from: reading the net, having books on gardening or worse yet computer files on it.
FunAdministration334@reddit
I enjoyed your post, OP. Good on y’all for living a healthy, sustainable existence.
Does it ever make you sad to slaughter the beef calf? I think I’d have a hard time with that, but then, I’m a bit of a petunia.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Thank you 😊
Adapted from my reply to someone else:
It's definitely not easy to kill your own livestock but it's necessary. I feel if you eat meat you should understand the cost and feel the loss. I care deeply for my animals and know them personally. A clean shot is a must and the instant they go down I run to them and gently pet them a moment while shedding a few tears as they leave. I think anyone who feels absolutely nothing at slaughter is some kind of psychopath.
We have a beast to do on Monday. She has a name, gets scratches and hand fed treats. I'm already feeling utterly sick over it and I will be right up until I'm busy processing the meat and tallow. We try to honor the sacrifice by using every bit we can. Each bite is eaten with gratitude to the animal. The freezer is empty so needs must.
TargetOfPerpetuity@reddit
How often do you hear "when things get bad, I'm coming to your house!"....?
Because I hear it all. the. time.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Occasionally, but only jokingly from virtual strangers who don't actually know me or where I live. I'm generally a friendly person but I always meet that comment with cold silent eye contact and I think it scares them a wee bit lol.
Most of my friends are the local farmers who I've learned everything from. The remaining city friends I had from my youth have all moved out of the city in the last few years and now ask my advice on gardens and livestock which is great! And the real ones in my circle know that of course I'll welcome them in a crisis but they'll have to work hard alongside us and learn to generate their food. There is safety in numbers, as long as they're the right people.
TargetOfPerpetuity@reddit
A ton of truth in everything you've said.
I teach weapons training on the side and have been blessed with 62 combined acres of overgrown wooded former farmland where the ranges and classroom stand.
It's a rural spot, 100 miles east of Nowhere, Appalachia. An idyllic corner of paradise where you can hear the birds singing, the creek happily splashing its banks, the breeze through the grass and, off in the distance like a country lullaby, the gentle dulcet tones of Copperhead Road come wafting through the trees.
And despite only having a smattering of attack chickens, a well and a guard-donkey (nothing to the extent you have), students often take one look at our firearms library, the tractors, fences, and treeline, and decide this is where they're heading when the shirt hits the flan.
It's mostly good-natured, so I use it as an opening to talk about self-reliance – normally quite easy in those classes. Until you run into that 1-in-100 who seems to be serious. His actual plan if things get bad is to abandon his dwelling, his HOA, his midlife crisis and his Model X, to rush "out here somewhere!" *as he gestures animatedly at the woods we hunt and the pond where our kids learned to fish.
"Sounds like you need to be stockpiling more beans than bullets!" says I.
Still, in the interest of their safety, I do have to push back a bit. I mean, I'll share my last crust of bread with you, if you're willing to help.
But not all the land lying about these here hereabouts is flying my flag -yet- and for those who think they're going to just head to the hills to live off squirrels and venison until the Apocalypse Apoca-lapses, I explain that the hills have more than just eyes; they also have spotting scopes and home-field advantage. They're already here, they've been here since grandpappy was hiding his stills from the Revenuers, and if the carpet they roll out for you happens to be red – it certainly hasn't been red for very long.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Your place sounds beautiful! I spend peaceful time in the forest whenever I can. And I tend not to worry too much about people who just say that jokingly either. We're set up to defend ourselves, heck the whole neighborhood is! Everyone on our dirt road is good neighbors and we have regular socials, help each other out, an emergency radio network and a group chat for local news. The terrain is defensible and if a strange car enters our road the last house knows about it before the car even gets there.
Most people without any plan who blurt stuff like that are not a major threat in my assessment. Someone with serious skills and a bad attitude who silently eyes up your digs would be much more scary. We agree that, "I'm coming to your place lol" comes from fear and a dawning awareness that they're not prepared. We can work with that. I'd always rather help someone if I can do it without too much risk.
FelineOphelia@reddit
Can't have that much protein in the suburbs. Everyone on here taking about getting their garden up because of the Strait...lol... that's not nearly enough calories.
But I understand that OP is talking about moving toward more self sufficiency long term.
I couldn't kill something I hand-raised myself. I'm prepping for tornadoes, not armageddon.
As a medical professional with access to the right drugs, I would choose a peaceful death over armageddon.
FelineOphelia@reddit
Ps- The first time I planted potatoes in 10 cloth bags, I got 3 total.
The second time I got one green one.
FunAdministration334@reddit
I tried to cloth bags too. In my climate, it was too soggy for them and the bags didn’t allow for adequate drainage.
In contrast, I got a fantastic harvest from a small 115x85cm raised bed.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
You need more practice then 😉 That's why I recommend learning to garden before you need to.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Oh, this is a very reasonable sounding comment compared to all the other hateful things you said here. You're right, vegetables alone aren't enough calories, I'm thinking more in terms of lots of people growing some supplementary food to try and buffer against the coming shortages. Like WW2 rations and Dig for Victory gardens.
It's definitely not easy to kill your own livestock but it's necessary. I care for them a lot and cry every time. I think anyone who feels absolutely nothing at slaughter is some kind of psychopath. We have a beast to do on Monday. She has a name, gets scratches and hand fet treats. I'm already feeling utterly sick over it and I will be right up until I'm kept busy processing meat and tallow. Circle of life.
I personally wouldn't kill myself because I'd hope to be some use to others until the end. I'd starve to death though before eating food the next generation needs.
DeafHeretic@reddit
If you are on the south Island, are there not quite a few sheep and some feral cattle/pigs/goats/etc.?
I am given to understand that because the soil on the south island is relatively poor for growing crops, the agriculture there is mostly livestock.
Thought about migrating to NZ, but then the rules/laws on non-citizens owning land got stricter, and I got to thinking about the earthquakes/etc. and volcanoes (actually higher incidence than the PNW USA where I live) and proximity to China/etc.
*shrug* - no place is perfect I guess.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
I'm in north of north island but do have family down south. Yes there's feral animals and semi-wild livestock on the big stations but the terrain is crazy so they just muster them a couple of times a year. Real hunters won't starve but someone with just a rifle and no experience in the mountains is gonna have a hard time just surviving down there. In Taranaki the bush is over run with wild goats though, they just walk out onto the road in front of you. Yeah, I could be producing all the food feeling like a hot shit until a big earthquake or Taupo supervolcano goes off lol But exactly, nowhere is perfect!
Complex_Material_702@reddit
Wow. Can I be one of your ten? :)
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Not unless you come fit and strong, able to cut a tree with an axe, butcher a large animal, know how to grow crops from seed and preserve, can build a plow from scraps and break in a horse... People new to farming make a terrible mess of everything, accidentally leaving a gate open can be devastating. I know because 20 yrs ago I was a city girl hahaha. BUT if you're a good seamstress or able to fix tools without ordering parts online I'll be happy to trade some food for your skills? Become useful in a post industrial world and you'll be ok 👍
Complex_Material_702@reddit
Unfortunately, I’m also in the united states. But I did grow up living your lifestyle.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Your knowledge is going to be valuable! Hopefully you can help people set up gardens and small suburban livestock in the near future 😊
ronniebell@reddit
I’ve got a spinning wheel, a loom and a treadle sewing machine and know how to use them. I also know how to spin yarn/thread from nettles, flax and a few other plants….Am I in? I can also bring my two All American pressure canners, my thousand quart jars. 1500 pints, a couple thousand 1/2 pint jars and enough reusable lids to can a mountain of food….. I also know how to make a solar dehydrator. Sounds like you have the herb seeds and veg seed, but I’m game to bring more to the table….. or you can come out to my 25 and we can go from there…. 😀
foot_down@reddit (OP)
You sound absolutely wonderful. Welcome aboard!
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
I'm game and i'll even catch it.
Narrow-Can901@reddit
The meteor always misses the planet. Society is not likely to crumble, unless there's a nuclear war. There won't be massive global famine. Certainly no famine in NZ.
BUT - there may well be hardship and ongoing shortages including that of food due to distribution issues, lack of fertiliser, political decisions like sanctions and similar. The choice of foods we have enjoyed may well be compromised meaning we have less Asian, Middle Eastern and similar choices. (I am also in NZ). Good luck finding spices and sauces for the kinds of Indian, Chinese, Japanese and South East Asian foods that are so popular here in NZ now.
You are right that the ownership of some fruit trees in your back yard will be helpful, as would the ownership of chickens if you have the space. A nice veggie planter that gives you access to the basics wouldn't be amiss either.
NZ grows 4x the calories it needs to feed its population, so I doubt a single New Zealander will starve. But I do wonder if we will see people die from lack of access to the latest pharmaceuticals for cancer, diabetes and heart issues.
FelineOphelia@reddit
Exactly. As a medical professional this entire post is absolutely laughable.
Op is gonna die on their nice farm and not be able to take any of it with them, same as the rest of us
foot_down@reddit (OP)
I'm encouraging people to try gardening and keep a few hens wherever possible, can you please explain what is laughable? You sound very unhappy and bitter, I'm sorry you're feeling like that. Yes we all die. It's a bit distasteful that you seem to be gloating at the idea of me dying because you don't like my reddit post lol. I'm very glad I don't currently need medical care if you're any kind of representative.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
The meteor doesn't always miss, just ask the dinosaurs lol I agree NZ should be fine in theory but it would take some quick thinking and rapid radical changes to logistics to get food through to the cities. Do we really have the leadership for that? Panic makes stupid people wildly more stupid so that's going to be fun, just look at all the supermarket thefts now. Yes, people will die. Not to be insensitive but in the western world we've become used to modern medical privilege and feel entitled to extended lives that were impossible until recently, it may revert back 100 years.
Our house will still be chowing down on well seasoned food, although I'll miss garlic. It's one thing I've never had much success with... We do grow most herbs though plus tumeric, self seeded coriander, thai ginger and chillies so at least the 2nd great depression will be tasty.
FelineOphelia@reddit
Of all the countries.....
Yes. Yes you do
Estudiier@reddit
Thank you for your explanation. Inspirational.
Capstonelock@reddit
I suspect that if the war starts to threaten donald's Big Macs and Coke, the war will abruptly cease.
Glass-Start20@reddit
This is the best comment on here. 100%
SentenceAwkward5302@reddit
I stand 100% behind your thoughts on this with ofcourse the caviat that you might have to evacuate ofc, you're going to have to reduce what you got to the bare minimum. I also want to point out that i watched this Ytube channel depicting how they lived just before the civil war (salted pork and other produce, multiple recipes with the same ingredients, not just how to make fire but how to set up a cooking spot, create suet, capenter skills, basic architecture...), not to be underestimated imb
ChoppedUnc-SF@reddit
That's amazing! Homesteading isn't for the faint hearted. I'm in California with a regular suburban yard. After a lot of failed experiments, I gave up on food self sufficiency. That math just doesn't work. However, we still have 5 chickens, potatoes in rotation almost year round, and a grab bag of subtropical fruit: Meyer lemons, olives, figs, passion fruit, & plums. Play to the strengths of your region/climate. Do what you can and support local farmers.
foot_down@reddit (OP)
Exactly. You'll still struggle but you'll be in a vastly better position than most. If everyone in the suburbs produce a good portion of their food then the outlying rural areas can bring more food in too. Unfortunafely because of mass agriculture and irrigation we humans have over-populated areas like deserts that most people can't survive in without the production being brought in.
Previous-Pomelo-7721@reddit
It’s incredible that animals like horses, cows, etc live off of only grass. Can you imagine how much different society would be if humans could subsist off of grass?
foot_down@reddit (OP)
We can. By eating the herbivores and drinking milk. It's how Europe exists.