Why should we? Does Germany or Albania or Croatia care how other countries call them? This phenomenon is very common across the world. Japan and China arent called like that either in their native languages.
So the final ye in Turkish sounds like yeh , with a short [e]? I heard it like a long one.
Anyway in English you write with whatever letters you want, you tell the people what it sounds like , and that’s it. 😁
Czechia isn’t Czech though, it’s just the short form because until then we didn’t have a short version, just Czech Republic
It’s like the official name of Russia is the Russian Federation but everyone just calls it Russia or Germany instead of the Federal Republic of Germany
The Czech version of Czech Republic is Česká Republika and of Czechia is Česko
Czech Republic and Czechia are both official names of the country. Unlike with Turkey, there was no change of the name, only the adoption of both the short and long form like the most countries (France x French Republic).
Also worth noting, that noone cares that Turkey cares. At least from what I'm seeing hardly anyone (outside of an official capacity of course) is usin *"Türkiye"*
A few days ago I saw a random non-Hungarian guy on a random subreddit saying that Hungarians should be called Magyars, and as an extension, everyone should be called by their endonyms. I had to exolain that Hungarian and Magyar are the same damn thing and we embrace both.
I'm neutral on this, it's just an idea. Many countries around the world actually do change their name in English, to their endonym. For example Persia to Iran, or Ceylon to Sri Lanka, Turkey to Türkiye, Swaziland to Eswatini and so on.
Turkey was because they are fucking insecure because of the name of a bird. And so they decided to change the name in English, to something that nobody knows how to pronounce. The dots on the "u" have no meaning in English.
Well english is no stranger to random spellings that don't fit in with the language, I mean people love to have a drink with their friends in a *café*
Not relevant to the discussion but I just had to add that
sorry to make you learn things mate
jokes aside, no one care if you personally keep calling us turkey. I do it myself. but we'd prefer not to be deadnamed in official matters, thanks.
I’m from Belgium. If tomorrow we request to be called “Bẽłğůşð”, I don’t expect anyone to take that seriously.
So not sure why we should do that for Turkey.
It’s a hyperbole, sure. But I do think it is ridiculous to change your name to something that doesn’t work internationally just because of insecurities linked to a bird.
In the west they call us Graecia and derivatives, in the East they call us Ionia and derivatives, and we used to call ourselves Romans up until 200 years ago, together with Hellenes. And we are still ok.
So, I think it doesn't really matter. We have more urgent things as a country to attend to.
Technically speaking we do. The name of our country is Albania, Shqipëria is a linguistic term used between Albanians it means to understand each other, he speaks same language, it's not about eagle or anything some lately claim, our eagle is the Roman eagle has nothing to do with the name Shqipëria. Albania in Albanian is Arbëria but the actual name Albanians was corrupted by Greek language that got it's final form Albania later through many corruption of different languages.
In Albanian we use Greek mostly but we do refer to Greek state as the Hellenic state or greeks as Hellenic. This is different from our case. Greek has been more of a religious term before 1821 or even after. Even Albanians were called as Greeks in Albania and Italy because we have always been part of the Greek Byzantine church, unlike slavic Balkans which had their own church. Northern Albanians which were orthodox either started identifying as slavs themselves or converted to islam in very high numbers during the 18-19 century.
The name 'Croatia' does actually come from 'Hrvatska'. They are the same thing, just a few phonetic changes. (Doesn't change your point, I just wanted to point it out as many people don't know that and assume it's the same situation as other examples you listed)
You also used to call the Ancient Greeks as "Ionians", but somehow Alexander the Great as "Roman". Most curious of all, on which I was reading yesterday, you used to call "Troy" as "Old Istanbul", but in some Ottoman texts the Trojans were also "Ionians" as well.
The whole Ionian thing is Persian’s fault.
They named you after first Greek group they encountered and now whole middle east call you that.
Roman thing is Seljuk/Ottoman. We still refer Greeks living outside Greece as Rum (Roman).
The Troy thing is just weird lol.
I would argue it is the Arabs' fault. It could have died out, but then the Arabs received this exonym from the Iranians and used it to specifically counter the Roman Greeks, pretending that they were a completely different people from the Ancient Greeks, and that it was only them who were the real heirs of ancient knowledge.
And then again, it is curious how the Achaemenids got to identify all Greeks as "Ionians", given that it was not just Ionians but also Aeolians and Dorians that lived in that area, while also that they did not just use older terms received by the Babylonians and Assyrians (like Danaan and Achaean). Possibly the real blame belongs to the Ionian Asian Greeks, dominating over the other Asian Greeks, even ones predating them by centuries (like those Achaeans of Pamphylia and Cilicia).
Being a Dorian Greek myself, I find this whole confusion rather funny. Of course, Greeks are also doing this all the time in history, with the most common victim being none other than the Turks themselves. For example are primary sources that call them "Hunnic Achaemenid Persians". Though this seems more like a Greek problem of failing to remember on which century they live.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but based on what do you identify yourself as Dorian? I am half Greek from the diaspora and I never heard anyone I know refer to themselves based on the ancient identity as opposed to modern geographical one (e.g. Dorian instead of Peloponnesian/Mani)
In my case it is mostly a geographic identity, but it probably does extend beyond that. It us because half my blood is from Dorida of Phocis, which is exactly where the Dorian identity first formed, and from where it would later spread into Southern Greece. The more usual demonym of that area is “Doridiotis”, yet the locals also identify as “Dorieis” (Dorians), and at times name their cultural associations like that. Since you mentioned the Peloponnese and the Mani, there was and still is a Dorian identity there as well, especially among the Maniots and the Tsakonians, as well as at times the Monemvasians. Though at times it is less pronounced in the name itself but the cultural heritage, like Maniots claiming to be the true descendants of the Ancient Lacedaemonians / Laconians / Spartans (which they are).
Phocis was literally Arvanite in the 1600s and that’s not including earlier Slavic, Vlach or Anatolian migrations. There’s literally nothing “Dorian” about Phocis or Boeatia. There’s only outlier is Kynouria and Tsakonians who actually speak a Dorian derived language and derive a very big chunk of their ancestry from Iron Age Dorians.
Yes I know a lot about the Maniatiko identity and the historical connection which is why I mentioned it, but I never heard anyone from Mani explicitly refer themselves as Dorians. Very cool about Dorida, I didn’t know that!
Ah there is something weirder about how we use the word “Yunan”.
Persians unlike us call the country “Yonan” and people “Yonani” we on the other hand call the people “Yunan” and the country “Yunanistan” the weird thing is the “-stan” thing is Persian. We took their rule and messed it up. So we actually call the country “Land of Greece”
>So we actually call the country “Land of Ionia”
There is also a funny aspect in this, that as "Ionia" means "Land of Ionians", because the "-ia" suffix means "Land of", when you call us "Yunanistan", you call us "Land of the Land of Ionians". A bit like saying "the Sahara Desert", which means "the Desert Desert".
Bruh, there is noone alive that uses that. Last generations who did were those living in the Ottoman Empire before liberation.
I digress, since you like that name I suggest we make it **Romanians** and name the country **Romania**
If I had more time to waste, I'd like to search your entire post history to see if you ever had an opinion on a country you're not living in, so I could reply with: "Tsk-tsk, what makes you think..."
You still see it a bit with Anatolian Greeks. It's rare, especially now, but due to the push by Greece for a more homogenous culture despite most Greeks being diaspora, I imagine it's not gonna go away
Sort of. Although "Roman" itself is rarely used now, it's derivatives are a bit more common.
"Romiosini" means "Greekness". Pontics sometimes refer to their dialect as "Romeika".
But yeah, outside of historical context you won't hear "Roman" much.
Also note that Latin/Western Roman (Romaios) and Greek/Eastern Roman (Romios) are pronounced slightly different, so as not to be confused with each other.
We don't call ourselves Romios in our daily lives, but everyone recognizes it. That was literally our name before Greece decided to change it to Hellenes, our ancient name.
If you have family from Constantinople or Pontus, they definitely still call themselves Romios.
All names are correct. If you study history many names refer to Greeks (not only Greek and Hellenes but others also like Danaoi). Greece comes from a Greek area in Italy and Ionia is the name for the near the sea area of Asia Minor and Romans were the citizens of the Roman Empire (Greeks dominated the empire but also other ethnicities).
I don't think it matters that much since it has been the same since ancient times for non Greeks to call Hellas either Greece or Yunan.
“Greece” comes from Latin Graecia, used by the Romans after encountering a local tribe called the Graikoi in Epirus. So it spread via the Latin language to other European ones.
“Yunan” comes from Old Persian Yauna, referring to the Ionian Greeks of western Anatolia (Ionia), and it passed into the Arabic world etc from that.
So these names are perfectly natural to be honest.
>“Greece” comes from Latin Graecia, used by the Romans after encountering a local tribe called the Graikoi in Epirus. So it spread via the Latin language to other European ones.
It does not come from the Epirotan Graikoi, but the Euboean ones. The most prevailing theory on how this name reached Central Italy is that it got there through the Cumaean Greeks, who were basically Euboeans from Kyme. And it is attested that the name “Graikoi” was rather prevalent in the area of Euboea and Boeotia, perhaps as opposed to other regions that might have still preferred the older version of the name, “Argos” (for “Argos” is synonymous to “Agros”, and “Graikos” appears to stem from “Agraikos”, meaning “from the plain-lands”.
I'm under the impression that the Epirus one is the most supported hypothesis but sure , I'm open to it.
It might also line up with the Euboean alphabet passing to Etruscans then to Romans (iirc)
Some people do say that it was the Epirotan ones, due to proximity, but generally the Epirotans were very isolated from the rest of Greece, and were not a marine people in order to establish many overseas colonies. It just seems like a confusion that existed even back then, where for instance Aristotle would place Deucalion and his tribe of "Greeks" in Epirus, but older narratives place him in Boeotia, specifically around Mount Parnassus.
We should care because Greek comes from a derogatory term of address during the Ottoman rule "γρεκος". But Hellas means the land of ell (γη του φωτός).
Lol, you are from Ellas alright, cause most Greek people are delusional. Sel-El-Laas = Hellas.
From which book did you find that? If it derives from the word Selas, why is not called Selada?
It is rooted in Greek mythology, originating from Hellen, the son of Deucalion and Pyrrha, who was the mythical ancestor of the Greek tribes (Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans, and Ionians).
What it really means cannot be known as most of the names in greek mythology are from proto-indo-european language. Deriving words through two-letter words is a cheap tactic.
Being Greek does not mean you know Greek history.
Yep, they didn't give me papers, even with many years spent in school there. Kinda broken system, but am happy that came in Albania. Greece has a very beautiful culture, but for Greeks.
>If it derives from the word Selas, why is not called Selada?
Giving my two cents here, it's actually a good question. The reason is because from PIE into Proto-Hellenic, among other changes, there is a half-regular shift from pre-vocalic and inter-vocalic *s into *h, as evidenced from words like "hekyrós" ("father-in-law", found in Homer), from PIE *swéḱuros, related to the sanskrit word "śvaśura", as well as the albanian "vjehërr". Other words are "heptá" (from earlier "septá") and "eimí" (from PIE *h₁ésmi - the h₁ was lost, and then the *s became *h, before being lost and lengthening the *e). This change also affected the masculine singular in the genitive (*-esos -> *-ehos -> -eos -> -ous).
Now, about the myths, I can't be sure, but they seem like a convenient way to create an easily digestible narrative, where well-defined genealogies easily solve the problem of the etymology of folk-names.
Look I don't like to keep talking about that. I don't think that it's right for someone who doesn't know Greek to disagree with a Greek person about etymology.
I've done school in Greece for as many years as you, maybe more. I studied the Greek language and am perfect in orthografia. Greece has an interesting story and the Ancient Greece has undeniably a strong background in philosophy, but their modern language is not complete. Greek mythology has even the first king of Egypt, named as Aegyptus, but that does not mean it's a Greek word. Ancient greek language is a klados of the Proto-indo-european language.
25% of the ancient Greek words are part of the modern Greek. Ship of Theseus paradox. How many words should you change to keep the same language? 55% of Ukrainian words are Russian and they call it Ukrainian.
First of all I'm not trying to offend anyone and I am not underestimating your knowledge about Greece (actually I am terrible at orthografia cause I have disgrafia). Also there are a lot of etymologies about Ellas. I think that this one was correct and a good point why I would like my country to be called like that.
Hellas meaning "land of light"? I mean in which language would that be? Not in Greek though..
Today there's is different answers to that question and not a solid one.
In ancient Attic it might have been tied to the Sun "Hellios", so "Land of the Sun" i suppose, they wouldn't be the first to consider their land the most important place and name it so
Uhm nope, the names Greece and Greek (and its language variants) trace back through the Latin Graecia and Graecus to the Graeci (Γραικοί, Graikoí), which where among the first ancient tribes to settle in southern Italy, referred to as Magna Graecia. Ottomans were not even in Anatolia yet.
But that empire is over and the term existed before, so maybe it's time to get over it. Also, ["Hellene" was used to denote pagans at some point](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/pjde7b/when_did_romansgreeks_in_the_ottoman_empire_stop/#:~:text=%E2%81%A0During%20the%20whole%20Byzantine,population%20up%20until%2010th%20century), so there's easy way out :D
I am not saying that it was Turkish fault but I think that the word Ellas is better and more "honorary". And I know about the pagans but I think they were called hellene because ancient Greeks were pagans.
Yea seconds no hate for that. Often the whole country is identified with the first tribe encountered by that special language group... like the finns call us "Saksa" if i remember right XD and as a non Saxon i beg to differ being adressed as such its... im just kidding. My wife is not. If i was asked to i would of course switch to hellas. Calling die Türkei "türkiye" on the other hand... well... erm...
As I answered elsewhere, are you ready to call all other countries with their "honorary" name? Are you ready to call Germany "**Ντόιτσλαντ",** Hungary "**Μαγιαρόρσαγκ",** Georgia "**Σακαρτβέλο"** and Armenia "**Χαγιαστάν"?** Finland "**Σουόμι"**?
Ok this is another topic. But yes if they want to call them like that why not. Actually I was talking with my family about how strange it is to call Switzerland Ελβετία.
It is from the Ionian tribe ,one of the Greek people that lived in Minor Asia like 3000 years ago. Homer was probably an Ionian.
The Ionic dialect shaped Hellenistic Greek or Koine which later became the lingua franca in the Mediterranean
I think that's kinda dumb. Other countries can call us what they want. It's not like in every other language Greece is called Greece, or even Hellas. We have a name for ourselves, and each country has a different name for us. That's how it works with all countries
I'm Greek and while I think it's a bit weird they're different, I don't want it changed anymore. Also I feel like Greece having hell in their name would annoy a few religious people.
I don’t know who downvoted you but Hellenic Republic is already our official name
Check any Greek ID card or passport , the word “ Greece and Greek “ is not mentioned anywhere in the English version of it.
You ll only find “ Hellenic Republic / Hellene / Hellenic
Turkey did it and it kind of feels like they have an inferiority complex that made them do it. Greece is secure and proud in their history , forced word games are not nessesary
The name Albania originates from the Albanoi, an Illyrian tribe mentioned by the geographer Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD, who lived in the region of modern-day Albania. It was later adopted in medieval Latin to refer to the region as Albania
What does it mean, to "restore the name"? A government only has control of the official name that it uses internationally and for its membership in various global organizations. There is no "Greece" participating in the EU, or the UN for example. It's the **Hellenic Republic**, that's the official country name.
Other than that, there is no magic move, for Greece or any country, that will allow it to change the minds and speech of everyone else around the world. Having an endonym and an exonym is actually quite common, and most people are fine with it. The only reason this is currently in discussion is because Turkey recently decided to make a big deal about it, but they are spending tens of millions of dollars on advertising campaigns to make this point, and in the end its not even going to make much of a difference.
Good example is also Hungary. In Hungarian they call their country Magyarország. But on the Balkans, they are usually called Mađarska, at least in Serbia.
Not really, it breaks the flow in English, it flows very poorly with the language's phonetics. If some how English used "Hellas", I would expect it to mutate to accomodate them, perhaps by mophing into "Helle" and its inhabitants as "Hellans" / "Hellians".
We call the Deutsch Germans, the Francais Gauls, the Nihonjin Japanese, the Magyar Hungarians and the Zhōngguó rén Chinese.
Some people call us Greek, some Ionians and some Hellenes, but it's obvious nobody gives a flying fuck on either side.
I think that in all official uses it should be Hellas or Hellenic Republic. Greece is not correct but it is the better known variant. However like our smart neighbors did in Turkey now Türkiye we should also. People will slowly catch up with it. We need to be less considerate of other countries and more of our own heritage and people.
Greece comes from Latin... Graecia
Not an English thing.
Graecia expanded as its name all over Europe and beyond for thousands of years, not only in Latin countries, but elsewhere.
What's the point of changing that?
Us Turks have done it and it's cringe af. I don't see why would you do that as well, people will still keep calling the country Greece. It's just how it is in collective memory.
I did exactly this. I have a number of Turkish friends, some of whom I love dearly. One was teasing me saying that I should be now saying "Türkiye" instead of "Turkey". I pondered this for 30 seconds and asked her: "When you are back in Türkiye (deliberately butchering the pronounciation), talking in Turkish to your Turkish friends, do you say "England" or "İngiltere"...she looked at her feet, smiled, punched me and burst out laughing, calling me a "smartarse". In English, the name of the land is Turkey.
Yep. Which they should. Not everything that a government decides without asking their people has to make sense.
I live abroad and haven't mastered the local language yet, thus I'm speaking English to my wife, friends or people I meet here. It's always Turkey, not Türkiye, nor it ever will be in my opinion
Well everyone in the world knows it as Greece, it's like the Egyptians are calling Egypt L' Massarya in Arab language and no one except them knows that.
So let. Greece be Greece for the rest of the world
The swiss should enforce it, and everyone should say every name in every swiss language everything else is discriminatory
Come on say it twice
Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft - Confédération suisse -Confederazione Svizzera - Confederaziun svizra / Confoederatio Helvetica
I mean sure, the name to be Hellas (El-as) would sound better but you know it's gonna be spoken like hell-ass. Also, i don't particularly care, it's been known as Greece, it's how we learnt it too, no point changing that now.
Not in Spanish, we have a phonetic system that's almost identical to yours. Not exactly, but almost 😄
In fact, "griegos" (Greeks) and "helenos" (Έλληνες) are synonyms in Spanish. And the official name of the country in Spanish is "República Helénica" (literally Ελληνική Δημοκρατία).
If we're going by what would sound good in English, I vote we bring back Pelasgia, or Achaea, or Rumelia, or perhaps even just South Macedonia. That way no one gets confused!
Eh, technically it is Hellas since it was Ἑλλάς with δασεία on E and it was somewhat like the letter H. ( That's why English says Helen or Hyperbole etc)
No it's a completely different coffee. Frappé is trash, instant coffee with ice. Freddo Espresso is art, a real espresso shot mixed with ice and some magic.
To be honest I think it is a bad idea. People keep bringing up the ridiculous example of Turkey but I think Iran is a better example - they also asked the world at some point to call them like they call themselves and not Persia. And this actually leads to most people just thinking of Iran as one among all other unstable Middle Eastern countries (not wrong but yk) instead of a county carrying the legacy of the ancient Persian empire. And I promise you that in the same spirit everyone will stop connecting Greece to the Ancient Greek world if you changed the name to Hellas internationally.
It's similar to what other countries call Germany and to a lesser extent Turkey. So it is ok if we decide to use our own name however me thinks that Hell-as(s) does not sound sexy to English speakers :-). I don't have a proposal though.
This argument resurfaces periodically, often driven by a certain nationalistic sentiment. While I don't necessarily oppose using endonyms on the international stage, it only works as an all-or-nothing approach. Cherry-picking specific names doesn't make sense.
Are you truly prepared to swap out familiar names for their native counterparts in every instance? That would mean referring to Germany as **Ντόιτσλαντ** and Hungary as **Μαγιαρόρσαγκ**. It would require calling Georgia and Armenia **Σακαρτβέλο** and **Χαγιαστάν**, or Finland **Σουόμι** and so on...
You can't really enforce people to change what they call things in their own language.
Most countries have different names in different languages.
Nobody really cares (unless your country's name in English is identical to that of a funny sounding bird).
Greece has never been called Greece by its people. Hellas was the name of the land since at least Plato’s time. Its people have been called hellenic (ELIN) since prehistoric times.
We already have a great brand name why should we change it? When most foreigners think of Greece, they think of history, islands and sun and great cuisine.
What will the name Hell- ass make them think? Nothing good
Hellenic Republic actually calls itself exactly that, in English, in official contexts, which is the exact translation of Ellinikí Dimokratía
Changing how people *unofficially* refer to Greece is going to be near impossivle. By the same token, Turkey will remain Turkey unofficially
Remember, Stamboul or Istanbul existed aa names for the City *in English* before the official name change.
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shqiptarski1444@reddit
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