For Me, Libertarianism Means Maximum Freedom – Nothing Less Will Do
Posted by Many_Squash_1297@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 45 comments
[removed]
Posted by Many_Squash_1297@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 45 comments
[removed]
bingobng12@reddit
I'm sure you'll "maximum freedom" your way into an economic depression
sour_cream24@reddit
You go to any private establishment you'll be told what to do or not to do. Certain rules are codified on some norms or laws or traditions to establish order even on daily society level.
I like that you have some strong principle, but i don't think "Nothing Less Will Do" is a great way to think about it, unless you buy some access and land for yourself out in the mountains or something where everything can be about what you want, which then turns into a violation of "Maximum Freedom" for other people in your land.
It's not realistic IMO
sour_cream24@reddit
You go to any private establishment you'll be told what to do or not to do. Certain rules are codified on some norms or laws or traditions to establish order even on daily society level.
Like the principle, but i don't think "Nothing Less Will Do" is a great way to think about it, unless you buy some access and land for yourself out in the mountains or something where everything can be about what you want, which then turns into a violation of "Nothing Less Will Do" for other people.
It's not realistic IMO
Peanut_Farmer67@reddit
Exactly and Now is the opportunity that Libertarians should seize. Republicans leading the United States into a war and Democrats advocating for more government control. Libertarians need a vocal leader who says enough of this crap. There are far more people in the middle of the road in this two party system that have had enough of this clown show we call a government.
CystralSkye@reddit
The only way to achieve that is through power, money and influence.
There is no system that will give what you want, you need to fight for it. Every society will try to control it's people. The only way to defend your own freedom is through force, money and power.
Sufficient_Baby8316@reddit
Well, what are you trying to do? Smoke in a crowded public place? Litter? Pollute the local pond? Drive at unsafe speeds? Sometimes you can’t do things because it would interfere with other people’s safety or wellbeing or damage resources that we all rely on. In a libertarian society, other people would have rights, too, not just you.
SmokeFrosting@reddit
So this is why people make fun of me when I say I’m Libertarian.
Sufficient_Baby8316@reddit
There are some smart people on this sub who are clearly well-read and have thought seriously about their beliefs, but it’s the people like OP who actually go around talking about libertarianism in non-libertarian spaces, hence libertarianism’s image problem.
ResidentMess@reddit
“You can’t do that” is free speech, and it’s usually not a literal statement. I’m not being pedantic here, this is a thing that a lot of so called libertarians don’t understand. Freedom isn’t a feeling. I can say whatever I want and if you “feel” that you’re less free you can deal with it. Me telling you to “Shut the fuck up” has literally zero impact on your freedom. I could give a fuck about how you feel, that’s kind of the point
sumwatovnidiot@reddit
The “nothing less will do” mentality is why libertarians will never be a significant party.
I get it and in a perfect world agree, I’m not trying to argue with your point. It’s just my opinion.
Franzassisi@reddit
Exactly the idea.
Boring-Aioli7923@reddit
That’s a fair observation about party politics — but it doesn’t really address the core point.
Libertarianism isn’t primarily a strategy for becoming a dominant party. It’s a framework for defining the limits of legitimate power.
If a principle only matters when it can win elections, then it’s not really a principle — it’s a campaign strategy.
And historically, many foundational ideas weren’t “electable” at first. Think of John Locke — his views on rights and government weren’t mainstream when he wrote them, but they later shaped entire political systems.
So saying “this won’t become a major party” might be true in a narrow electoral sense, but it doesn’t determine whether the underlying ideas are valid or influential.
In fact, libertarianism has arguably had more impact by shaping the boundaries of debate — pushing back against overreach — than it ever has as a standalone party.
So the real question isn’t whether it wins under current political rules.
It’s whether the principles are sound — and whether they continue to influence how power is justified and limited over time.
ic_engineer@reddit
The problem is the the world isn't an independent body you can fully disconnect from.
I'm all for the spirit of libertarian ideals. But if we look at the basics, it's not really tenable as a standalone concept. It has to act as an opposition to overreaching protections.
To argue this I'll make one assumption: That the primary 'rule' in this doctrine is to not harm others.
But what is harm?
Is harm taking all of the water from a stream and diverting it from a downstream village?
You've not harmed and individual but you may have doomed an entire town. Water rights and management are often considered demons of big government.
Is harm selling drugs to children?
Without a government to regulate would you be free to operate a vending machine that has no identification or age restrictions selling drugs or weapons?
If you think we need some laws, well let's talk about taxes.
Services can't be relied on voluntarily. Professionals would never develop. Nothing would be improved.
Taxes as a form of violence? Please. It's pay to play.
It can be opt in, your neighbor isn't covered under the local fire department? Good luck keeping the flames from spreading.
So while this group is SORELY needed, for all the reasons y'all support. It can only exist in this narrow state.
BadReputation2611@reddit
Nothing less will do, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t ever make compromises on the way to getting there
Anen-o-me@reddit
Libertarianism doesn't exist to excel at party politics, especially in a FPTP system that punishes 3rd parties heavily.
And libertarians started out by infiltrating Republican politics and that has been less than successful. They never had the numbers, were resisted and isolated internally, backstabbed in some cases (Ron Paul 2008), and in most cases were just converted into primary Republicans
Dana Rohrabacher is a great example, dude used to travel around the country singing liberty songs on campus to spark a youth liberty movement on campuses, someone told him to run for Congress, 40 years later he's a standard Republican that few even remember was a libertarian.
The compromise process of politics is inherently destructive to radicalism.
Participation on political systems is not the only way nor even necessarily the best way to make a political impact.
And libertarianism is bigger than the USA.
I'd say the most exciting thing happening in libertarianism today is Milei in Argentina, decentralized law concepts, and seasteading. All three can have globally impact, the last two don't involve winning votes.
Live_Taste_7796@reddit
I was thinking the same, which garentees him no freedom forever by his own logic.
whizzerblight@reddit
libertarianism is more ideology than political entity. You need to sacrifice some rights to live in a civil society. You want complete freedom to live your life? Ok, build your own roads, hire a private army when people come to steal your shit, pay for healthcare for family members with debilitating diseases out of your own pocket if you care about them…
scottrfrancis@reddit
Javier Milei said - “optimize for freedom” — which i think is a more pragmatic framing than “nothing else”. I can’t seem to find a route to get to anacapastan… so will have to try to improve in place….
ic_engineer@reddit
This! The ideal is imperfect when it meets reality. That doesn't mean we abandon the ideal or reality.
Bobrofski@reddit
Post: AI
3rd comment: AI
6th comment: AI
OP's response to 6th post: AI
We are doomed.
natermer@reddit
Your freedom can't be taken away from you. It is something you are born with. Nobody gave it to you other then providence.
Freedom is your ability to do what is right. Right for yourself, right for the people that depend on you, right for the people you live among.
Liberty is what is given or taken away. It is the state of existing in a society that supports your freedoms. Conversely Tyranny is the state of existing in a society that tries to deny you your free exercise of your freedoms.
In other words: Freedom is what you are born with. Liberty is what you fight for.
If Freedom is something that is decided by others then there is no violation of your rights when state authorities take it away from you. They get to decide what your freedoms are. Thus they can only violate your freedom when they already decided you should have that freedom in the first place. If they decided that a particular freedom shouldn't exist then there is no way for them to violate that freedom because it doesn't exist.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
What you're describing doesn't sound like libertarianism to me, does it? I am a radical libertarian who believes it. For example imagine 1980s America with Hippies say; "Make love, not war" era. Post-modernism. A hedonism era, when inflation is not crazy. The world's gold era 1980-2007 scale before the 2008 Mortgage crisis in USA.
natermer@reddit
It is the meanings of the words. Very common. Not just Libertarianism, but most forms of Conservatism, and actual traditional meanings of the words.
It is all very classical stuff. Founding fathers, the whole ten yards.
It goes along with "Rule of Law".
The traditional view of "The Law" is that it is something handed down by Providence.
That while our understanding of "The Law" is indeed very human and limited, "The Law" itself transcends understanding. It is based on the nature of humans, the structure of the world, how it works. It is universal.
Your understanding of Law is independent to how the Universe works, how the world works, how human society works.
That is it isn't something created so much as something discovered. We enshrine our understanding of Law in dusty books, but they do not define it. They describe it.
That is what Law is. That is what Freedom is.
Therefore "Rule of Law" covers everybody. It doesn't matter who you are. It covers Kings as much as peasants.
That is what it means to have a Republic with Rule of Law.
If Sovereign States can go around and arbitrarily decide what laws are, what your rights are, what your freedoms are... then it is impossible for those sovereign states to ever do wrong. They cannot violate your rights or violate your freedoms or steel from you or hurt you in any criminal manner except when they decide it is criminal. If they decide it isn't then it isn't.
liefarikson@reddit
Your own verbiage dismantles your point. You have to clarify that you're a "radical" libertarian, necessarily indicating that there exists a "non-radical" libertarian. This means that the whole purity of the libertarian ideal you set up is undone by just two words in this reply...
There's a spectrum of libertarianism. If you squawk at people who are farther down on the spectrum than you are, wasting breath that they're not "really on this spectrum" the. you're just wasting everybody's time.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
Furthermore, for radical libertarianism to be implemented, the economic system in that country must be very good, and everyone must earn a high salary. Because economic crises undermine social peace. Our primary priority should be to fix the global economy. Have you ever heard of the economic bubble of the 1980s? During that period, everyone lived like they were rich, even richer than California. Let's create a new economic bubble that never bursts. The right strategies are needed, and it's difficult to implement a libertarian order during times of war. It is critically important for the world to stop the war with Iran, Russia, etc., and sign a lasting peace agreement. However, we are no longer in a period of global peace. If we create a new and solid economic bubble, that system will begin to form the most solid foundation for a radical libertarian order. In a world of wealth and abundance, crime rates will always be much lower than in periods of global economic crisis and poverty.
Firm_Balance_8285@reddit
I'm not convinced that freedom maximizing is actually the goal of libertarianism except indirectly. Much of what libertarianism preaches (small government, minimal regulation, property rights) is about protecting smaller spheres of more absolute freedom rather than maximizing freedom overall.
Heavy-Bell-2035@reddit
Then you're going to be very surprised if we ever get a libertarian world, because in many ways it can and likely will be more restrictive than our current world. It will just be restrictive with prior consent. Minimal to no government doesn't mean fewer and less restrictive rules, just ask anyone who has ever had to work with an HOA full of busy bodies hell bent on controlling anything and everything about your home.
superspacetrucker@reddit
Seems like a lot of libertarians are teenagers who have no concept of the real world.
gthht@reddit
So I can pollute the pond to help make my job more efficient?
NeoWayland@reddit
Does that include forcing others?
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
No. Only when consent.
NeoWayland@reddit
So now you’ve restricted yourself. You are not free to compel others.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
No, i also respect others. I try to say if others doesn't restrict anyones freedom, that's okey. Like both side consent.
NeoWayland@reddit
Again, that’s not maximum freedom.
For me, liberty means I’m free to choose so long as I’m responsible for my actions. Freedom with responsibility.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
If you don't have the freedom to bring out the youth and childhood within you, that's not enough libertarianism. I say this as a hedonistic libertarian. I want responsibility to be as low as possible. I can be happy with my own ideology. Your arguments make me feel bad and restrictive.
But again, there is tons of Libertarian with different point of view. So, you are just one person and probably there is also many libertarians who would %100 agree with me?
NeoWayland@reddit
Questions, not arguments.
You want life without consequences. I don’t think that’s possible.
If I eat now, it won’t be there to eat later. It won’t be there for someone else to eat.
That’s why children don’t do well on their own. Putting effort into future benefits or benefits for others, that’s what distinguishes an adult.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
This is the most important difference of Radical Libertarianism: it doesn't force anyone to become an adult. Most people who develop normally can already take responsibility, but if I can't, don't force me. If they force me to take responsibility, that violates the NAP principle. Libertarians say, "Don't tread on me," remember that.
NeoWayland@reddit
You want to sacrifice your tomorrows, that’s your choice. You just don’t get to whine about it.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
What do you mean?
NeoWayland@reddit
You’re telling me what you want today, but you’re avoiding tomorrow.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
What do you mean by responsibility?
1stPeter3-15@reddit
Completely agree in principle. As soon as you add humanity to the equation, practical issues creep in.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
To liberate America, start by dismantling the FBI and the rigid police and judicial systems. Start by eliminating the fascist Zionists who control the American deep state. Start by eliminating the Zionists and murderers in the state of Israel. Unfortunately, the US and Israel rule this world, and therefore, the forms of government and social norms in these two countries need to be radically changed to become libertarian over time. Freedom shouldn't be the right of Hollywood workers only.
Many_Squash_1297@reddit (OP)
Let's start with end the current war forever and then fix the wild capitalism first. Anarcho-Capitalism maybe? And like, let's fix the dollar, let's stop the wild globalization and just respect all countries old laws, cultures with modern freedoms at the same time and support post-modernism. For example, at 2025 wild America government pressure on Japan anime manga companies with Visa and Mastercard companies. Let's stop them and make all countries freedom.
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