The countries pushing the most for boots on the ground and the complete destruction of Iran as a state are the ones that will least help deal with the inevitable downfall of the caos, refugee crisis and dozens of splinter factions that will originate from the ordeal.
Also Saudi Arabia is most likely to duck a lot of the damage while UAE, Kuwait, and Qatar take the brunt of Iranian retaliations. They can push oil towards the terminal on the Red Sea side that's less exposed and reap the benefits of high oil and gas prices as a result.
Qatar got 20% of their LNG production whacked like a week ago. Just because it's been quiet lately doesn't mean if Iran gets pushed they won't go for more strikes. It's basically a risk Saudi Arabia is willing to take.
Having US planes in Saudi bases doesn’t mean Saudi Arabia is allowing the US to use those planes to attack Iran. They’ve made it very clear that they aren’t allowing that to happen. If Iran was attacking those bases, then sure that’s fair game, but they’re not just attacking those bases, they’re also attacking civilian infrastructure, oil infrastructure, and desalination plants.
There’s also not been any reporting that Kuwait and the UAE have been attacking Iran, especially not before Iran attacked them. If they’re retaliating now, it’s fair game since Iran attacked them unprovoked.
Just because Israel and America aren’t great, doesn’t mean Iran is remotely good either. The Iranian regime is terrible and it’s frankly disgusting that idiots like you are trying to defend them and claim they’re the good guys. Just shows how astroturfed this sub is from bots and how gullible some idiots are.
>they’re also attacking civilian infrastructure, oil infrastructure, and desalination plants
Stop lying. Iran threatened to attack desalination plants if their power plants were attacked.
My point this whole time is that Iran attacked those countries unprovoked and has been attacking civilian infrastructure. Asking for a source that refutes one of those points isn’t move the goal posts, but glad to see that you realise Iran’s actions are indefensible. Hopefully next time you start to connect some dots and realise that they’re horrible regime rather than continuing to simp for a government that massacres its own people.
You said Iran attacked desalination plants. That was a lie. Then you said to prove that Kuwait attacked Iran prior to Iran attacking Kuwait. That's moving the goalposts. This isn't particularly complicated.
It wasn’t a lie, Iran literally targeted Bahraini desalination plants:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/23/iran-threat-to-destroy-water-facilities-gulf
They have since successfully attacked Kuwaiti desalination plants:
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2026/3/30/iranian-attack-damages-kuwait-power-and-desalination-plant-kills-worker
As for apparently moving the goalposts, my initial point was that the Iranian attacks were unprovoked. That means Iran striking first, so yeah it’s not really moving the goal posts to ask for evidence of Kuwait striking first (evidence you clearly can’t provide since it didn’t happen). Not to mention, I’m pretty sure Kuwait hasn’t struck Iran at all in general, so even then my original point still stands.
Anyway, continue to keep lying and spouting IRGC propaganda. It’s clear you’re just a bot getting paid to lie, so there’s no point talking to you.
And simply supporting bases there means they're contributing to some degree - there's command centers, there's storage, and so forth. I think Iran's sending the message that you're not safe if you cosy up to the US at all.
My point this whole time is that Iran attacked those countries unprovoked and has been attacking civilian infrastructure. Asking for a source that refutes one of those points isn’t move the goal posts, but glad to see that you realise Iran’s actions are indefensible. Hopefully next time you start to connect some dots and realise that they’re horrible regime rather than continuing to simp for a government that massacres its own people.
In case you weren't aware, 'shifting the goalposts' is when you make a claim, someone rebuts it and you make a *different* claim instead.
You claimed none of those countries either bombed Iran or contributed to the bombing of Iran and when this was pointed out as incorrect you *shifted* your goal posts from 'they didn't attack iran' to 'they didn't attack iran before Iran attacked them'.
The Emirati have been fucking around with the Saudis’ plans in Africa. I’m sure seeing the UAE catch a missile in the teeth would please them enormously rn.
Production yeah for sure but unlike their neighbors on the gulf side they have the ability to get oil out via that Red Sea terminal. They’re still vulnerable but better set to get the most out of rising costs.
There is a single pipeline that Im aware of that KSA can use to do so, and it’s nowhere big enough to handle their production.
So sure. I agree that whatever they can send to the other side they will, but we’re still going to see a major energy crunch the longer this goes on.
>Also Saudi Arabia is most likely to duck a lot of the damage while UAE, Kuwait, and Qatar take the brunt of Iranian retaliations. They can push oil towards the terminal on the Red Sea side that's less exposed
If I was Iran that would be my next target. Probably would make the Saudis change their mind real fast.
Hate this war but kind of like how many absolute shithole nations are being completely fucked. Let's see, theocracy on this side, then monarchy monarchy monarchy... apartheid pseudo-democracy... and we haven't even talked about America yet.
This just shows that none of you have any idea what you're talking about lol... Saudi Arabia were about to normalize with Israel prior to the Hamas Oct 7 attack, why would they want to do that IF they saw the Israel were a bigger threat?
It’s hardly surprising, Oct 7 was their 9/11, it made Israelis feel more vulnerable than they did since the Yom Kippur war, maybe even worse. People here love acting high and mighty but it’s quite possible that other countries suffering an event like Oct 7 would’ve responded just as violently, maybe more so.
The UK has never had anything close to Oct 7th. The worst terrorist attack on UK soil everywhere killed about 1/5th as many people, and that was the Lockerbie bombing where the majority of victims were American.
The closest analogue in terms of an attack actually targeting the UK would be the 7/7 bombings, which killed 56 people.
If you want to stop using all nuance and hell, your brain, then sure that's a valid question. Since we're playing that game though, is there a quantity of Muslim terrorist attacks that makes it unacceptable? I think after 10 attacks Israel is allowed an extra 50m² of Palestinian territory, what do you think?
The nuance here is that Israel is justified in commiting genocide because it is small and it wasn't a terrorist attack but rather a full military attack and this is the way in which small countries answer since scenarios? Have I got it right?
Follow your own advice. Maybe try a book not written by some zealots glorifying murder. Try the Oxford dictionary for example, you'll get a better understanding of the world
Oct 7 wasn’t a terrorist attack, it was an invasion of over a thousand combatants. Those attacks that UK and France suffered were nowhere close to that scale.
I don’t know about that. I know people in this sub seem to think so, but really it’s hard to tell until much later what the real results are. 95% of the people on reddit seem to jump very quickly to conclusions that something is good or bad, a mistake or an accomplishment, but they’re all wrong, it’s simply to soon to tell.
Let’s not forget we are talking about politicians here. Talk is free, they can denounce this or support that, at the end of the day what kind of actions are we seeing? Have we seen many western countries cut commercial ties with Israel? Have we seen any talk about military intervention in Israel? Do we have any reason to believe that after these wars are over, Israel would suffer significantly from the fallout?
Ok, and? It’s not like countries do referendums on every little thing. End of the day, Israel is still a trade partner and military partner to the US and EU, do you think sympathy for Palestinians suffering will get those countries to say “ok, fuck Israel, we want a Hamas dictatorship on the Mediterranean instead”?
We're talking about the destruction of Israel's reputation. Oct 7 was a huge success because Israel is viewed with revulsion among large swathes of people.
I honestly doubt anyone would call Oct 7 a success, when Gaza lies in ruins, Hezbollah at a fraction of their past power, and Iran’s loss of what, three tanks of leadership, 80% of their missiles, and almost their entire navy?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Israel has won, but I don’t think that Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran have won either.
They’ll all claim victory though, that much I’m sure of.
People like you said the same thing about apartheid south Africa.
Sympathy for Palestinians will bring Israel's demise just like it did with apartheid in south Africa.
>“ok, fuck Israel, we want a Hamas dictatorship on the Mediterranean instead”?
Is this supposed to be a joke or do you need to see a doctor?
Sympathy didn’t end apartheid, you need that actually translated to trade embargoes, and they need to be accepted by most of the world’s economic powerhouses. I don’t see that happening at all in this case. Even if the EU and US would get there (super doubtful) this would only make Israel closer to Russia and China, which is very much against the US and EU’s interests.
I don’t get your last comment. If Palestine was established tomorrow, do you think it would be some utopian democracy? The dominant political force among Palestinians is undoubtedly Hamas. Gaza didn’t have any elections since Hamas came to power.
So it’s quite obvious to me that if the Palestinians got the land and recognition to start a formal state, it would be an Islamist dictatorship. Who else could take and hold power there? Even if by some miracle the PA would, they’re not exactly a pro-western liberal democratic organization either, right?
It was sympathy for black south Africans that led activists to push countries, companies, universities, banks, artists etc to divest from south Africa, boycott its products and to impose economic, cultural and sporting sanctions. This severely damaged apartheid south Africa economy and contributed to its downfall.
It will be the same for Israel.
>So it’s quite obvious to me that if the Palestinians got the land and recognition to start a formal state, it would be an Islamist dictatorship.
Why does this hypothetical future even matter?
The USA biggest allies in the middle east are genocidal and apartheid settler colonial state and Islamist monarchy.
The Palestinians have been doing “resistance” for like 50 years now. Current number of western countries that are boycotting Israel is at… checking notes… zero.
Maybe try something new?
I honestly think that was their play all along. Hit Israel hard enough that the world pays attention and then let Israel show their true colours. I doubt they thought even Israel would go as far as they did but once Israel saw there was zero repercussions for their actions they went full Nazi.
This is some serious cope in an attempt to normalize Israel’s insane bloodlust and violence.
What Israel did to the Palestinians completely defies description. There is no modern comparison to that level of violence and cruelty. The closest I can think of is the Nazis.
That’s because your thinking capabilities are severely limited, but I can’t fault you for it, years of neglect of the public education system, food with low nutritional value and reality TV have had a very bad affect on the capabilities of many Americans to read, comprehend and analyze information.
Expected, yes. How anybody would react? I don’t think so. I have more faith in humanity than to believe that oppressed people simply have to go out and murder, rape and kidnap civilians.
Could be, I don’t really care much, all leaderships involved (and I say all because there are more than two) are terrible people and are thinking more about power than the well being of their citizens.
When you steal the land, routinely kill the indigenous people, kidnap them, terrorize them, rape them, put them in a concentration camp etc decade after decade after decade, they are bound to react violently.
So now you know why oct 7 happened.
\>This just shows that none of you have any idea what you're talking about lol... Saudi Arabia were about to normalize with Israel
Nah, that just goes to show how bad MBS is on reading the situation. After Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey would be next.
I don't think even the people with the most schizo takes on "greater Israel" include Saudi Arabia in that. Israel's beef with iran is mostly down to all the proxies Iran sponsors against them, which the Saudis also oppose. Why would they "be next" in Israel's list? Just to get some religious rivalry-fueled pleasure in blowing up mecca and medina?
> "greater Israel"
why the quotes? Greater Israel has been the project since the beginning and their maps clearly show the land they want:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/Map-of-Greater-Israel-Laid-out-by-Theodor-Herzl-Middle-East-Eye_0.png
many Israeli officials have openly talked about greater Israel over the decades, here is Mike Huckabee saying the same representing how evangelical christian zionists also want the same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-VjWKcNOj8
Because Israel is not just about "greater Israel", but about hegemony in the region. They even said that "Turkey is next". The problem Israel has with Iran was never it's proxies, but it's regional power.
Regional power does not mean you have to conquer the entire region. Hell, even in the US cannot conquer and hold such a large region. Israel achieved power through trade and defense pacts. They have that with the US and EU, they have that with Jordan and Egypt, they recently got there with UAE, were about to get there with Saudi Arabia and Bahrain before Oct 7, and most likely we will see them sign peace agreements with Lebanon and Syria in the next decade.
But what is actually meant by "hegemony" in this context? Saudi Arabia is much larger than Israel, has a higher population, and has solid diplomatic relations with states much more powerful than Israel, such as the USA. Plus their economic ties are nowhere near extensive enough to foster a relationship of dependency either way. How would Israel dominate them in any meaninful sense? Saudi society also largely despises Israel and its people, so any kind of soft power aspect to "hegemony" is dead on the water, whatever that would be.
You're absolutely right. The timing of Hamas's Oct 7th attack was very much an attempt to derail the imminent normalization of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
The Palestinians deeply fear any scenario where Israel made peace with the Arab nations without first resolving the future of Gaza and the West Bank.
They'd be utterly left behind. In fact, alliances might shift, and Arab nations might even start pressuring the Palestinians to accept a two-state solution on Israel's terms.
That's the power of economic normalization ... Arab leaders hate Israel, but they might like being rich *more* than they hate Israel.
I don’t know why this myth keeps persisting. Yes it’s true Biden was pressuring Saudi the summer of 2023 but King Salman reportedly ended the talks with saying Saudi would never recognize Israel in his lifetime. Israel refused to budge on issues like Palestinian statehood or two state solution.
If Arab leader had button that would kill all Palestinians immidetaly they would press it instantly. Arab leaders hate Palestinians and like Israel but they know if they openly supported Israel then their people over revolt against them.
Stop saying "Arab leaders" as if they're a monolith. It's only the Arab countries that cuck for the US. Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, UAE, Qatar, and Kuwait are not all the Arab countries.
1. Mauritania
1. Morocco
1. Algeria
1. Tunisia
1. Libya
1. Sudan
1. Lebanon
1. Palestine
1. Iraq
1. Yemen
There are more Arab countries not allied with the US than there are that are allied.
I always find it funny when non-Arabs tell Arabs they are not Arab. Just a bit of thinly veiled racism, as if people living on the African continent can't be Arab.
Citation needed.
Algeria:
> Arabs make up 73.6% of the population of Algeria, Berbers make up 23.2%, Arabized Berbers make up 3%, and others constitute 0.2%.
Libya:
> 97% of Libya's population is made up of Arabs and Berbers,[26] of which 92% are Arabs, 5% are Berbers.[1] The remaining ethnic groups consist of Tuaregs and Toubou people.
I'm not even going to check the rest for you since it's going to be the same thing each time. Berbers and other groups are minorities in most of these countries. Your claim is like saying Americans aren't actually white, but rather white-ized indigenous peoples. No. Believe it or not, Arabs actually moved to and live in these countries during the conquests. They didn't just teach the locals the language and then leave. Yes, there is obviously mixing with indigenous populations, and Arab genetics won't be as pure in those countries as Saudi for example, but it doesn't make them not Arab.
You are forgetting all of the African Arab countries. Egypt is the only one with close ties to the US. Every other African Arab country is not on that list.
Bullshit, Morroco has the longest history or close ties to the US since forever (first country to recognize the US and close ally since). Similarily Algeria and Tunisia are pretty close to the US since a long time.
Libya is barely a country at this point. So which African Arab country again is "not cucking up" to the US exactly?
And to be fair to these countries, a few of them had to be coup'd or destabilized for zionist-friendly leaders to rise to power.
A lot of those sold-out leaders are living on the knife's edge, whether they know it or not.
Yup. Pretty much all of them can be categorized into either a coup-installed puppet leader, a power/money-hungry monarch, or a power/money-hungry oil baron.
The problem with Muslims is that they have no incentive to change the balance of power. I know we have problems with Iran, but they are the only ones who have at least tried to develop their military industry, and that's why Israel is afraid of them.
You guys misunderstand the geopolitics in Middle East. Religion is not the great unifier over there. Islam is not some monolithic religion. It has sects. There are different schools of thought. There are opposing ideologies each side consider legitimate. Saudi is currently the "head" because of the system they have. Their doctrine of Wahhabism is what allows them to be the leader including the religious sites that all Muslims consider holy. This doctrine has been used by extremists all across to build their ideology. Iran is a direct opposition to this because they see it as the way Saudi controls the region. So Iran is a direction opposition to Saudi's regional leadership and religious authority. This big difference in ideology comes from Saudi being Sunni along with the other gulf states and Iran being Shia.
Qatar, UAE and Saudi are all trying to be leaders constantly by trying to do negotiations or other things to please America. Qatar and Saudi had diplomatic issues some 5 years ago. UAE and Saudi had some issues quite recently. Most of these monarchies only support Palestinians because their people might revolt for the first time in countries that don't see a single protest. The people of those countries care about Palestinians. None of these countries actually do anything to help Palestinians other than just by giving them money. The negotiations they try to do reach nowhere because Israel goes out of their way to kill negotiating members.
They wouldn't be giddy to do Abraham accords if they saw Israel as a huge threat. What they should realize is that America will never have their backs if it comes to them and Israel. This is not a problem to them because they can use attacks on their people to manufacture consent against destroying Iran. So that's what they will do instead. The only problem is that America will come for them, too. Nobody will be there by that point to oppose them. Gulf states destroying each other and being failed states will be the ideal scenario for Israel but that's because they do not think about all the groups that will form after nations get destroyed.
Israel isn’t a threat to Saudi. They have relative diplomacy. And Saudi and Iran have had tensions for years and years. Saudi is majority Sunni and Iran, Shia. And Saudi is Arab and Iran is Persian. These distinctions cause a lot more tension than people seem to realize
Of course Israel is a threat and Israeli misinformation bots won't change that. Maybe the guy that gave the green light "The Line" would have difficulty in perceiving the facts but Muslims are closer than Zionists.
Israel is a threat to the levant and Yemen. I’m not a bot and I’m not going to explain geopolitics when your comments aren’t even making any sense and you don’t seem to understand
Comments like this help me remember how unhinged some people in this sub are.
Israel, more of a threat to Saudi Arabia than Iran? Really? Iran, who’s their immediate neighbor across the gulf, who’s been hostile to them for decades, who’s their direct competitor for religious hegemony over Muslim state, who’s primarily Shia? They are less of a threat than Israel, who’s virtually never been in any conflict with Saudi Arabia ever, and with whom they were about to normalize relations and sign commercial treaties with prior to Oct 7th?
Israel has single handed brought the USA and Iran into WW3. That's the threat to the human race. Because what happens in the Persian Gulf to the price of oil affects Ukraine plans and where ukrainian's bomb in Russia It is a World war.
It is a world war The whole world is affected by it. This World war is not like the others. There is however a worldwide vacuum
in vision and leadership. Economic and political petty self-interest considerations dominate the various agendas as ignorantly and profoundly as in World war I. The Overarching threat of rapid climate heating has made fear and the denial of it the number one function of whole international economies.watching a dysfunctional empire dismember itself. Obsolete values, desires and beliefs do not stand up to new realities. The Earth has one whole ecosystem being degraded by divisions and discord instead being protected by harmony and cooperation.
There were many others, Iraq War, Afghanistan war, Syrian civil war, those too impacted large parts of the world. Why do you not consider them world wars?
One has to learn to break down the habit and compartmentalization of thought in order to be able to perceive what a dot is and from there progress to lining up the dots.
Still, even in WW1 and WW2 it was only years after they started that all belligerents became involved and they gained this title. Had we been a month into the war in Afghanistan, for instance, you might’ve made the mistake to call that WW3, right?
🤣🤣🤣🤣 WTH did I just read?
Btw if you care so much about Ukraine then you should support whatever Israel and US are doing to Iran right now because Iran are in alliance with Russia and have been supplying them with drones and missiles to blow up Ukraine. So crippling Iran will directly help the Ukrainians in their war with Russia.
If you think war can solve any of the problems the world faces you have a very limited understanding of what we are who we are and where we are. War is the primitive savage impulse that civilization has been trying to train out of the human race for millennia. p.s. It is strategic domineering actions of the USA since the Vietnam war that are causing the conflicts worldwide. The USA has successfully gained control of the oil economy infrastructure (except for the Persian Gulf) just as it becomes obsolete. China made the brilliant decision to transform its economy to electrification thus changing the rules and securing economic strength.
I understand that you fail see what I am saying. Try to zoom out and look at a larger picture. The only information available to you come through medias that are filtered and compromised by self-interest. It becomes difficult to identify the facts that define a dot let alone the criteria to line them up.
Israel and its allied AIPAC and Armageddon cult in the United States is a threat to the entire world. They have instigated the participation of the USA in the third World war
Palestinians are much closer genetically to Israelis compared to Arabs. Their only thing in common is their religion but wealth and comfort weighs more to them than religion.
Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the verge of normalizing relations, a huge step to a stable and lasting peace. This is what the Abraham Accords were all about.
It's the main reason that Hamas (with Iran's backing) launched their terrorist war on Oct 7th. They knew Israel making peace with Saudi Arabia was the first domino in a wider acceptance of Israel by other Arab nations. That sort of regional peace that did not include a resolution to the Palestinian situation, would have left them behind. They would have no international support in their conflict with Israel, and so they'd have lost significant negotiating power.
Anyway, the idea that Israel is the greater threat to Saudi Arabia ignores those basic realities. It also highlights your misunderstanding of the massive conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslims, which is heavily being played out between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Interesting, my thought was MBS was trying to push dumb ass donald into a ground invasion into Iran to wreck the US and Israel.
Israel and Iran, its two biggest foes in the region harming each other. Only issue is Iran keeps sending drones and missiles into KSA.
Yeah MIGHT is pretty important word there.
There’s no benefit in US doing it sort of like Vietnam/Afghanistan.
It’s really just “lose” or “victory of some really unnecessary and stupid objectives.”
> reported by the Times of Israel.
Yeah, sure buddy. I wouldn’t trust Israeli sources, *especially* on something like this. It’s in their interest to get everyone to fight everyone.
I wouldn't trust the weather.
In fact Saudi Arabia state media is denying that they are pushing for war. [Here](https://english.alarabiya.net/News/saudi-arabia/2026/03/16/saudi-source-denies-nyt-report-claiming-kingdom-encouraging-prolonged-iran-war)
No I don’t. I would trust the Falun gong before I trust Israelis and their BS media. Israeli news and intelligence is one big fucking delusional joke filled with lies and misinformation.
I don't think so because trying to finish the job would absolutely lead to Iran destroying Saudi Arabia's oil infrastructure, which would cripple their economy for the foreseeable future. The stakes are just way too high to gamble.
Your logic doesn't really make sense. Iran wouldn't touch Saudi infrastructure under normal circumstances, it's their nuclear option, only used if they're in an existential war. So Saudi Arabia lobbying the US to launch a full-scale invasion is exactly what creates the scenario where Iran has nothing to lose and targets them. They'd literally be causing the very thing they're afraid of.
The U.S. and Israel was going to do that anyway since that's the main way Iran can do damage to anyone.
And that still doesn't make me think it outweighs the possibility of having their economies completely crippled at a time when the world is transitioning away from oil and gas. Also, if it happened, their kingdoms would most likely collapse too, and they're much more afraid of that than Iran.
Times if Israel truly is Schrodinger's news outlet. It's often critical of its' government, and when it is it's lauded as a reputable news source and a voice of reason within a corrupt country, with truth index being cited and thrown around. But when it's trying to report on something else, it's a Zionist mouthpiece that can't be trusted.
Make up your minds already. It can't be both at the same time.
I already did, it’s another zionist propaganda outlet. You can stop your bitchin and cheer for death of innocent brown children and their families from your cozy couch
Any non-Israeli sources actually reporting this? So far we've had multiple reports like this from Israeli newspapers - including:
\- Claims that Saudi Arabia was the one pushing Trump to attack Iran in the first place
\- UAE joining in on offensive operations against Iran
Saudi state media is denying that they are pushing for war. [Source](https://english.alarabiya.net/News/saudi-arabia/2026/03/16/saudi-source-denies-nyt-report-claiming-kingdom-encouraging-prolonged-iran-war). Reminder that this is a country known for dismembering journalists that go against the grain so we can be pretty certain that this is the government denying.
> Claims that Saudi Arabia was the one pushing Trump to attack Iran in the first place
We know for sure that's not true because Rubio spilled the beans in an early press conference that the only reason we went in was because Israel was adamant they were going to attack with or without us. And Trump being the good little Zionist he is had to play along rather than let Israel get their ass handed to them. Netanyahu came over shortly before the Iran attacks - Feb 2026, I would imagine that's when he gave Trump his marching orders.
Wouldn't take Rubio at face value. Personally, I read his statement as mainly throwing Israel under the bus as things were clearly going sideways. Blaming Israel is a great way for him personally to avoid any future responsibility for the mess.
Israel has been pushing the US to attack Iran for years, and for years before Trump the US always refused that pressure. Israel always backed down. Whether Israel issued such an ultimatum or not, the idea that the US could not have stopped them is almost certainly untrue. That the US had no choice but to go along if Israel was going is the kind of childish excuse for one's own stupidity which used to make my mother ask, "If everyone else was jumping off a bridge would you do that too?"
> mainly throwing Israel under the bus as things were clearly going sideways
Nah it was early in the attack when they were trying to explain why we had suddenly attacked Iran in the middle of negotiations.
And? It was never really going "well." Rubio is smart enough and with enough of a sense of self-preservation to know that this was never going to end well.
Anyway, it is easy to tell they are lying because the idea that Israel could force the US, upon which they depend enormously, to do anything is just not credible.
Horse manure The White House and its minions are taking advice and guidance from AiPAC and third tier generals because first tier generals would have said no way that ain't going to work. It is no wonder the USA is running around like a chicken with its head cut off because that is exactly what the military loyalty purges have done cut off the head and bring the yes men to the fore ( out of the 600 or so us generals.) For instance,
Gen. Dan Caine Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff becoming Chairman on April 11, 2025, General Caine was the Associate Director for Military Affairs at Central Intelligence Agency.
> Anyway, it is easy to tell they are lying because the idea that Israel could force the US, upon which they depend enormously, to do anything is just not credible.
You don't seem to understand the US-Israel relationship at all. It's very much a wag-the-dog situation. The idea that the US, and particularly Trump, would just let Israel run face first into a buzzsaw and get their ass handed to them is a nonstarter. So the idea that they could tell Trump that they're going in with or without him as an ultimatum is entirely plausible.
Israel has reportedly tried this "we're going without you better save us!" gambit before under other presidents and failed because the US said "No. You're on your own if you do that."
The nature of the US-Israel relationship is that Israel is a US imperial outpost in the mid-east region. As such, it gets away with a great deal, but it doesn't get to set terms and drive the bus. If Trump is personally disposed to let Israel push him around, that is a Trump problem, not proof of Israel's supposed power over the US.
If this administration believed in "hard power" as much as they pretend to, they would tell Israel to sit down and learn its place, because the US does, in fact, possess practically limitless leverage over Israel. That they don't is an *ideological* problem.
> it doesn’t get to set terms and drive the bus
You have it absolutely backwards. AIPAC is more powerful than the NRA and has gotten both parties to unconditionally support Israel including all Israeli actions even against American allies. Israel sets the wars and then US Congress and President back them. Yes, previously US presidents behind closed doors would hold Israel back but Trump is the first president stupid enough to follow the rhetoric instead of having a different policy with Netanyahu behind closed doors.
I know all about AIPAC. The Israel Lobby is very influential, no doubt about that, but the fact that, in spite of that influence, previous presidents can and did say "No." illustrates the difference between *influence* and *power.*
Israel has undue and harmful influence on US politics, but that does not confer on them power over the US. Therefore, there is no sense in which Israel "forced" the US into this war. Not only is Rubio's suggestion that the US had "no choice" but to follow the US into this war untrue, but the reverse is almost certainly the case: Israel would not have risked starting this war if the US had not agreed to participate. The US retains the power to make that decision for itself, and it did so.
Disagree. AIPAC has previously bragged that they control the US political system, and even Netanyahu has been caught on video saying that he controls US policy.
> there is no sense in which Israel “forced” the US into this war.
All the reporting for the last month points to the opposite of your claim.
> Israel would not have risked starting this war if the US had not agreed to participate.
Yes but that’s not proof of your point.
Israel also "bragged" about having the power to impose regime change on Iran, but they didn't have the power to do that either. How seriously do you really want to take these kinds of boasts?
I don't know why you are resisting so much the idea that US policy makers are responsible for their own decisions. This is not speculation. We *know* that past presidents have refused to go along with Israel's war schemes. It is therefore beyond dispute that the US makes its own decisions, even if it is *politically convenient* for characters like Rubio to pretend otherwise right now.
Because Trump was asked who he was negotiating with in Iran and he replied that he doesn’t want to say because Israel may assassinate them if they find out. What conclusion should we draw from that, if Trump is saying Israel will undermine his plans? Who is leading this war?
> under other presidents
As I said, Trump being the Zionist and an unconventional leader would never allow them to go alone. The US is pro-Israel but with Trump at the helm it's pro-pro-pro-Israel.
You can see the difference with the Gaza situation - Biden was on board with pretty much anything Israel wanted, with the slightest pushback on mass casualties in the south, but gave them back their bombs before they ran out after a performative pause.
Trump on the other hand was ready to pave Gaza and turn it into an Israeli luxury resort and casino. It's a different level of commitment with him even though the US is generally very subservient to Israeli needs.
> This war was a decision the administration made, not something Israel forced them into.
If by "decision" you mean Israel said they were going in with or without us, and Trump said "Yes sir, here we come sir" after Netanyahu came to the White House to tell him what to do.
Right, and you understand the difference between willingly going along with something stupid and someone forcing your hand, so I know you're not confusing the two.
> difference between willingly going along with something stupid and someone forcing your hand
As I explained, in Trump's world Israel saying they're going to run face first into a buzzsaw if we don't help them ***is*** an ultimatum that forces his hand.
You have zero reason to doubt Rubio so I'm not sure why you're playing games. Everything points to him telling the truth, but you apparently think the truth is offensive and are trying to dance around it.
Israel wasn't going to anything if Trump didn't agree. Trump and Rubio and the rest certainly knew that, so blaming Israel is a convenient *excuse* for an objectively terrible decision. I believe him that Israel may have played such a game, but I do not believe him at all that that meant the administration had no choice but to go along, simply because that is *demonstrably untrue.*
What offends me is sleazy US decision makers hiding behind Israel to cover their own bad decisions, and others just taking it at face value that there was nothing the Trump administration could have done differently. That narrative makes it less likely anyone in the US will face accountability for what they have done in Iran. The only potential silver lining is that it may inadvertently turn the US public even further against Israel. Still the truth that the US is a big boy and makes its own decisions ought to be respected.
> Attack Iran anyway and get predictably wrecked? Not likely, and if they did, so what?
We would come to their aid. As we did when Iran slapped them around a year or two ago and we sent THAAD systems and US personnel to make them feel safe again. As Trump did when Israel didn't have the weapons to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities so we did it for them. There's zero scenario where Israel gets themselves in trouble and we don't bail them out of it for the next three years.
> That harms Trump how?
Zionist. It's like when you want to break up with a lover and they tell you if you leave them they'll harm themselves. Trump cares enough about Israel that he's not going to let that happen, that's why it's effective.
>It's like when you want to break up with a lover and they tell you if you leave them they'll harm themselves.
You know, it's funny because I almost made this exact analogy in my previous comment bet deleted it. I was going to say that, having been in such a relationship, you learn to call their bluff. They're not actually going to do anything.
I'm glad you brought those past examples because they go to show that the US is at liberty to choose its level of involvement. When Israel attacked Iran in the past, they opted just to contribute to air defense or drop a few bunker busters that Israel doesn't have. They could have done something similar here, but they chose instead to go all-in. Why? Not because Israel "made them," but because Trump honestly believed that he could wrap of regime change in Iran over the course of a weekend of intense bombing. It didn't work and that's too stupid of a reason to keep admitting publicly so now it's all Israel's fault.
> They're not actually going to do anything, and if they do? That's not your responsibility.
That's the problem, it's game theory on a geopolitical level, and Netanyahu is savvy enough to understand that if Trump is hesitant about doing something he'll still come to the rescue if Israel just goes ahead anyway.
Even with Biden, Netanyahu openly denigrated him numerous times, you could tell there was no thought that they would get any pushback, or that we might pull our support if they behaved badly. Netanyahu had stated at the beginning of Gaza that they thought they had a limited time before the US pulled the plug, like we had in the past. I can't remember what the expected timeframe was, maybe 30 days before they thought they'd lose western support.
So their plan was to go hard and fast, and do as much as possible before we told them to knock it off. Only we never told them to stop, and they realized they had free reign to do *anything* they wanted, no holds barred. That philosophy has carried over to Trump because they know he personally is an even more avid supporter, and has a tighter grip on the US government than Biden did.
I don't like it, but we're at Israel's mercy for the time being - whatever trouble they cook up we're going in, by default, no question.
>because Trump honestly believed that he could wrap up regime change in Iran
I will agree that he has no idea what's going on, but Israel has made it clear that the plan is bomb and keep bombing and if you run out of targets find more. Trump said something about being surprised that they hadn't surrendered yet before we even attacked, during the negotiation phase, so he clearly thinks we have way more leverage than we do. But Israel was mentioned as the reason we went in long before this became a public shitshow, so there's no reason to think they were just a ride along on this little adventure, especially with Netanyahu visiting the White House right before we attacked.
I never said Israel was a "just a ride along." I agree it is likely Israel did everything it could to instigate this war, but the US president can say "No." The US president can set the terms, degree, and form of US involvement, should the US president *choose* to get involved.
You are talking about reasons why this US president in particular would be inclined to participate rather than push back. That's the *ideological* problem I mentioned earlier, but just because he is ideologically disinclined to use the power that he holds does not mean he lacks that power. Again, we *know* that US presidents possess this power because they have used it in the past. It is also obvious that Israel lacks any real means to retaliate against the US should it refuse to participate in their wars. That's the difference between a client state and hegemon and the difference between *power* and *influence.*
Do you see the point I am driving at? It is a matter of where the ultimate responsibility resides for US involvement in this war, and it's not in Tel Aviv. It's in DC.
> The US president can set the terms, degree, and form of US involvement, should the US president choose to get involved.
>
>
>
> You are talking about reasons why this US president in particular would be inclined to participate rather than push back.
I'm not sure why you keep trying to pull it back to generalities about all US presidents when the specific president we have now is all that matters to the game theory of our engagement. Yes under other presidents they may have been less able to strong-arm us into doing anything they want, but under the current administration Netanyahu's word is directing the US military.
It's like you keep trying to fight back against some straw man argument that you're offended by about Israel running the US, while I'm trying to discuss that during this administration they literally do run our middle east policy via Trump. Because there's zero chance he's going to let them go it alone, so all they have to do is **go**. Rubio told the truth.
Yeah, this is shite. Last time around i24 reported the UAE had hit desalination plants and their source was… …an Israeli telegram page.
These guys are trying their damndest to bring the Middle East into all out war so they don’t have to fight Iran themselves.
It’s disgusting. They could literally start WWIII and they don’t. give. a. fuck.
Their source is the NYTimes, this article is doing nothing but quoting the original article.
The Wikileaks cable leak during Obama showed that king Salman was trying to pressure Obama behind closed doors to bomb Iran. This was before MBS came onto the scene and now the NYTimes is privately telling Trump to escalate the war as he shouldn’t stop it.
Will the Saudis throw in a golf course, new plane, or a hotel? I mean why would Trump even do this? The should probably go ask the Israeli who may do it for free.
People don‘t understand that a free Iran would be a major power in the region. Oil rich, educated population, good geographic location. There was good reason for the US to back the Shah regime. It backfired on them and we got Ayatollahs. Then the US backed Iraq in the Iran-Iraq conflict and that backfired when Saddam got greedy with Kuwait. Gotta love the consistency in US foreign policy.
Both the Israelis and the Saudis are afraid of a powerful Iran, and so they are asking their vassal to do something about it. Unfortunately for them, they‘re fucking it up badly right now and the „eh we‘ve got money what can happen to us“ gulf states are shitting their pants.
So people misunderstand the Gulf States position. They pushed actively against Trump not to attack Iran as Saudi has had a cold peace and trade relations with Iran since the 2023 Iran Saudi Detente . The 2019 Abqaiq–Khurais attack is the biggest motivation for Saudi’s reexamination of directly confronting Iran. Iran is capable of wiping out entire gas and Oil Productions in one drone strike. That's why Saudi has for example refused to help with the Houthis in Yemen because they know they can't win this fight.
Right now they hate Trump for starting this war but they know the next Iranian government is going to be more extremist . They basically want the US to weaken Iran militarily before leaving . Countries like UAE actually have billions of dollars worth of trade with Iran and UAE is a huge player for sanction evasion when it comes to Iran. Their normalization with Israel is now because of business and military interests with the West. It's not because they want Iran to be confronted directly as UAE restored relations with Iran soon after Saudi did.
Right now, we are at the mercy of Iran when it comes to the Strait of Hormuz. People misunderstand and think Iran is Gaza . Iran doesn't want or need a ceasefire. They know the US will eventually have to give up. As the Iranian FM said, "We are waiting for them" when asked about US ground troops.
Saudis “help” with the Houthis a lot…
They literally started a war in Yemen claiming it was against Iranian backed Houthi’s and continue to fund and arms opposition groups. They also targeted a lot of Yemeni civilians and civilians infrastructure in the process.
Saudi Arabia will fight Iran until the last American and Pakistani soldier! But seriously, fuck Saudi Arabia. They need to fight their own battles. Do we now have two leaches in the Middle East sucking us dry trying to fight their battles for them?
If you’ve seen what the Saudis have done to Yemen then no, it isn’t surprising their attitude towards Palestinians and Iranians because of Israel. Americans also have no backbone after crying about Kamala sending them to a war so whoop dee do.
Motherfucker, it shouldn't be Americans dying for Israeli's genocidal evil empire ambitions. It should be whoever called for war, so MAGA idiots, and Saudi Arabia. This war is frankly not unAmerican in the sense that I don't think America would do this
I have friends who have worked in Saudi Arabia. I have friends who have worked in oil and gas with Saudis. Almost universally they describe their Saudi coworkers as the most useless human beings on the planet, somebody important's cousin showing up for half a day and reading two newspapers while drinking tea. I can't imagine their military is much better.
So, if you want boots on the ground to break Iran's blockage of the Persian Gulf and later to prevent the collapse of Iran, do it yourself, Saudi Arabia.
Their military is not better, no.
See years long, failed efforts against the Houthis. No weaponry of their own and in need of constant help and instruction to use what the west sells them. It's a deeply corrupt country which would barely exist if not for the easily extracted oil it lucked out on. Nothing is done on merit and billions of dollars cannot buy competence.
But I thought Israel controlled Trump through AIPAC to hit Iran. Does AIPAC control MBS which controls Trump or does AIPAC also control MBS? If everybody controls everybody else simultaneously, that makes for a very weird circle jerk.
American troops get to die for a rapist paedophile, Israel and now the fucking Saudis too?
Can't say that sort of thing is going to be great for morale. War is hard enough when it is just but there has never even been the hint or lie that this one is, you've got troops being sent for the most idiotic and downright evil causes possible.
The State Department leaks a good while back (I think they were the ones from Manning?), showed that Saudi Arabia had already been pushing the US to destroy Iran's regime for almost 2 decades at that point. And those leaks were over a dozen years ago too. One of the main points was also that Saudi Arabia didn't want to be associated with it the attacks at all either. But sure looks like they've finally found their willing puppet in Trump to do their dirty work.
Saudis be like...Wait, hol' up, we're never going to be able export oil anymore and our economy is effectively over, and we did this to ourselves on purpose???!
Understandable tbh. Iran(nemesis) is the immediate threat to them while Israel's greater Israel project needs a few more years for them to capture and solidify their presence in Jordan and Lebanon. Maybe, then the Saudi Arabia will only be concerned about Israel if their vision still materializes, who knows once Nethanyahu is gone it breaks a civil war with in Israel but anyways I think the goal of the current family is to stay in power regarddless. The monarch has spent 200 years to establish the dominance in the region after world and establish a state. Unfortunately, the petrol dollar scheme has rotten them from the core and really too much on America and it's economy to keep functioning in its currents state.
Republicans doing the Saudis work for them. A tale as old as time.
I cant even imagine what they say about maga behind closed doors amongst their own. They must sit around in absolute disbelief its this easy to manipulate an entire swath of people that couldnt even point out their country on a globe.
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