We HAVE to do something about ATC Staffing.
Posted by DanThePilot_Mann@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 388 comments
It’s insane that the FAA didnt learn anything from last years accident, and now we have two more airline pilots killed. Admittedly this is speculation, but i would be flabbergasted if the report doesn’t come out citing excessive controller workload as the probable cause.
Write your representatives.
MalachiteKell@reddit
The Hallmark of aviation safety is that we learn from our mistakes, but the only lesson we can learn here is that a single person shouldn't be in safety critical situations. Atc Manning is already so desperate I fear we'll never do anything substantial about it, so now we'll sacrifice people's lives at the altar of "It's too expensive to pay two people to do two people's jobs"
Different-Wish-843@reddit
Well we clearly haven't learned that having a single tower employee working several frequencies doesn't quite work out.
bhalter80@reddit
The problem isn't pay the problem is how long the pipeline takes to get CPCs and the washout rate.
I had a discussion in r/ATC last year about this the academy can handle 2000 applicants/year and they have a washout rate around 40-60% and that's before they get to OJT. I'm a systems guy, so having a yield that bad seems like we're doing a bad job at screening because it means that we can produce somewhere between 800 and 1200 candidates/year which doesn't fully cover the problem. Yield is the issue not program capacity or money because there are plenty of people who are being turned away because classes are full.
There's another issue where in any normal business having vacant positions for over 6 months really means you don't need the person anyway. We're looking at decades of open positions that the FAA has been going without filling. I will get downvoted for this so nobody may see this comment afterall but we need to get real about what the actual number of controllers we're short is and focus on that to make this a tenable problem
Bright-Pilot-3970@reddit
Open two more academies. Fix the pipeline to get more bodies. Definitely fix the screening process. Raise pay. Right now if you don’t do 1 and 2, the system is fucked in about 4 to 5 years when the 2008 controllers can retire. If they don’t raise pay people won’t stay until 56.
pendingleave@reddit
They are going to bypass the academies with enhanced CTI.
pendingleave@reddit
Sit down at a busy radar scope that is combined because of poor staffing for a week rotation and then come back and say “you don’t really need to fill those vacancies”
AggressorBLUE@reddit
Not for nothing, but I imagine higher pay and a generally better QoL for the job itself (ie not understaffing, better hours, etc) would also help yields because frankly you’d get a larger, stronger pool of applicants.
Thing is, if you have the “right stuff” to be a solid ATC; detail orientation, ability to keep focused for an incredibly long time, work well under pressure, able to process a lot of info at once, etc., There are way easier, lower stress ways to make a better living.
bhalter80@reddit
I'd agree with you if they had empty seats in the classes and had a consistent 90% yield. That means they're selecting for the right candidates but nobody wants the job.
Remember for your "right stuff" you also have to pass and maintain a class 2 medical
MaintenanceSoft1618@reddit
Walmart could have a CEO opening to the public and get millions of applicants at a salary of $150K. What they wouldn’t get is anyone who is actually qualified applying.
The FAA touts the same thing. "We get 50k applicants every bid!" Yes, but of that 50,000, a miniscule (less than 5%) make it through the easy mode academy, and even less make it through their facility.
aDustyHusky@reddit
Filling seats doesn't mean filling seats with the right applicants, just like you said. A bigger pool allows the system to be more selective with who fills those seats, not just the bare minimum.
Responsible_Scar6089@reddit
Even then, you run into a problem that nobody outside of actual controllers seems to recognize: it is extremely difficult to screen for who would make a good controller. Been doing it for twenty years and my best indicator is “have they shown the ability to work in the restaurant industry”.
bhalter80@reddit
I think we're saying the same thing just approaching it from different ends. I'd say let's draw down class size until we get to high yield and then work on increasing class size back to capacity.
You're saying let's increase comp until yield improves as a side effect
aDustyHusky@reddit
Fair, but I'm not sure drawing down class size is the right answer to increase yield. I don't know enough about the school house but from what I've read good instructors are hard to come by, that and how things are taught and evaluated likely have a strong impact on the attrition rate.
ATC is an extremely challenging job but I think everyone can agree something needs to be done for these folks (ATC and specifically tower controllers). There is a reason most transport category airplanes have two pilots, we catch one another on mistakes all the time. A controller should not be in a position where a split second mistake that was almost immediately caught results in fatalities.
DankVectorz@reddit
With the length of time it takes trainees to certify staffing would go below effective rates by the time this panned out. There’s going to be another wave of retirements in less than 10 years. It takes 2-4 years on average to certify. We are also dealing with retention problems now, fully certified controllers simply quitting because they’re stuck somewhere shitty with low pay and no ability to transfer somewhere more desirable with better pay. The academy bottleneck needs to be fixed and pay and benefits need to be high enough to attract quality applicants. The trainees that have been coming in recently are among the worst I’ve ever had to work with in my 16 years of ATC.
serrated_edge321@reddit
Maybe part of the problem is the nature of the actual job vs what people think it's like. It's easy to imagine that someone who signs up might be very wrong about their ability to do this job, because it's far from anything they've actually tried doing before.
Would be helpful to get little kids into programs that help build the fundamental skills needed, sponsor video games (fun ones) related to ATC activities, etc.
4Sammich@reddit
When i was at the regional level I got new FOs who this is their first airline and had absolutely no clue what airline life was like. As in they had flown commercial as passengers but knew nothing about what the lifestyle was like. Moreover, many struggled to adapt because at a young age social interaction is highly desired, yet as pilots we get very little of it. An airline pilot life is very solitary.
serrated_edge321@reddit
Yeah, wow... I can especially imagine that before the Internet, people didn't really know about this whole subculture. And then all the young people who don't even have driving licenses (Europe, Asia, etc). Funny thinking of them going to learn to fly planes first!
CharacterSchedule700@reddit
Also having the "right stuff" might not be apparent upfront. Take me as an example, I'm good under pressure, don't really get stressed out, can juggle a lot at once. But I get a bit dyslexic when I'm trying to do all that and talk, I mix up my directions, mispeak, etc.
I wouldnt know that outside of having been in a couple very specific circumstances where that becomes abundantly clear.
Approach_Controller@reddit
The key issue i think that gets missed is it isnt that they arent failing to screen out people who cant retain or learn the information. This isnt like an imperfect ACT/SAT situation where we find the right test questions and boom ideal candidates!
Its also not entirely having people apply the information in a sim and turn this situation into safe using these rules.
The issue for MOST people isnt any of that. They pass the written tests, can apply this rule and that and do OK in sims. The problem becomes doing all of this with pressure. Pressure knowing you need an average of a 70% or you wash out. The pressure of if i screw this live traffic situation up, at best I'm making my trainer save shit and I'm getting a bad training report or at worst people die.
There just arent ways to enduce and test for THAT kind of stress along with everything else. That kid taking the entrance exam on a lark? How do you enduce OH SHIT levels of stress? In the actual academy you'll hop in a sim knowing you do well or get fired, but as you go in you watch a classmate who just missed the grade in tears getting escorted off premises. How do you roll that into some kind of aptitude test short of shock collars or threats of violence? You dont. No matter how you test, the same landmines are there lurking. Shit, how many people score bottom 25% and say nah, Im good to their assignment to FAI? Not everyone graduates top of their class, nerves get even good people and not everyone is truly willing to go anywhere. No amount of testing solves any of it.
Even as is, if you shrink the academy groups , the bar to pass the academy is extremely low. Its similar to 20 years ago in flying where 250 hours and a wet ink CMEL gets you on with a regional. So even if you do find some magic test, you've still got a large number of graduates barely capable of fogging a mirror.
shadowalker125@reddit
not to mention that the highest age for applicants is only 31. so basically only teens and young adults can even apply in the first place
leftrightrudderstick@reddit
OKC has been churning out grads at the same rate for decades. The issue isn't the training pipeline. The issue today is attrition.
EntroperZero@reddit
The issue that started it might be attrition, but to fix the problem, you need to stop the attrition AND increase hiring until the capacity is filled.
bhalter80@reddit
ATC has been saying they're underfunded for decades and working 6 day weeks for decades.
leftrightrudderstick@reddit
No they haven't. No one was on 6 day weeks when I got hired dude. People used to fight over overtime because it was so rare.
dopexile@reddit
I don't know of any government bureaucracy that claims they are not underfunded... they are always trying to get more money and expand in size.
leftrightrudderstick@reddit
I never said the FAA is under funded
Norken79@reddit
When it comes to jobs that directly interface with the real world there is ALWAYS going to be filter with a HUGE washout rate. A lot of Anatomy and Physiology classes that are pre-reqs for RN programs can often fail 75% of the students. The military administers what is essentially an IQ test and restricts jobs based on the results and then a washout rate of 30% even after that. It is a total myth that you can train anyone to do any job. No you can't. If you can't, then there is going to be a filter somewhere in the system if that system is working properly.
IMadeAMistakeSry@reddit
Pay is a huge part of the problem and would fix so many of the damn issues ATC face.
LGA is the pinnacle of ATC career salary at the moment. And yet the starting pay once certifying is about 165k and at most 220k (after 15+ years of being at LGA). What’s the average pay of a cockpit at SWA/Delta/United that flies out of LGA? Probably 500-600k if I had to guess. And yet this ATC was working it all combined? Ridiculous.
Bottom line pay needs to increase for ATC. Otherwise you’re accepting the system to be perpetually understaffed and overworked.
Accomplished-Ear-681@reddit
Yeah, let’s definitely get serious. We’re short a little over 4,000 controllers and that number is going to grow very quickly. 40% of the 9,800 or so of us working airplanes are eligible to retire between right now and 5 years from right now. We haven’t had an actual pay raise in 10 years. I’m eligible in 2 years and I’m leaving that very second. The pay just isn’t worth the schedule (and everything else). Unless a whole bunch of people get really serious about actual solutions real soon the American and Delta and United are going to have to get really comfortable with going VFR 🤷🏼♂️ Even if the FAA does finally figure out hiring, and does so massively, who is going to train the new kids, certify them on operational positions? The clock is ticking and it counts down to zero in like 2 years, tops. Good luck, everyone.
dinnerisbreakfast@reddit
With such a high washout rate, it is a wonder why fully trained and certified graduates of 4 year Air Traffic Control degree programs sit on a waiting list for years before getting hired.
Wilbur_Redenbacher@reddit
Because they wash out at the same time rate as off-the-street hires.
Emotional-Ebb9390@reddit
Which is why:
Don't go to college for a technical degree. A bachelors degree is literally not supposed to be a trade degree, which a ATC degree is. Don't go to college for a trade degree
Especially don't go to college for a trade degree when the sole employer of that trade doesn't require the trade degree, or any degree.
Your 4 year trade degree is actually completely meaningless when they wash out at the same rate as off-the-street hires which either means (a) the colleges get worse students than the off-the-street hires and actually train them or (b) the "fully trained and certified graduates" haven't actually been given any training or certification.
Honestly, shame on UND and the rest for even having such a program.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Less flights until towers are better staffed. It's obvious high intensity ops aren't as safe as they could be right now due to ATC staffing.
You won't be able to improve hiring and increase the amount of new qualified professionals quickly, but you can slow down ops to a safe level while you do that.
The thing is, it won't be done because this will generate so much pressure on airlines they'll probably come up with other half-assed solutions.
Hemmschwelle@reddit
Fly fewer flights with fuller planes, and the airlines should be able to raise prices, and maybe make more profit. The problem is that planes sitting idle cost money, so prices would need to go up a lot. To make this happen, the government would either need to allow price-fixing, or go back to government regulating air travel, setting routes and prices.
Fewer flight would also address 'The Pilot Shortage'. Maybe Amtrak ridership would increase.
bhalter80@reddit
slot controlled airports will only serve to penalize GA and create more airports where GA is locked out. Maybe that's a good thing because the reliever airports would start to thrive again like MHT and ORH which can barely eek out any commercial ops
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Yeah, all I it's there's no single solution for this.
RavenholdIV@reddit
I live ORH, such pleasant controllers
Rainebowraine123@reddit
Or you know, they could increase training capacity. That's part of being better funded.
Pinejay1527@reddit
Part of the issue with that is the fairly low number of instructors qualified to teach the material.
You MUST be a current or former controller for SAIC to consider hiring you.
You need to either like teaching OR need a well paying specialized job because you're on your third marriage. This means even the shitty instructors stick around because that seat is either a bad teacher or no teacher at all.
Academy IIRC also only has 3 Radar sim rooms total so only 6 classes can be in the en route program for any one stage at any one time. They're pretty good about staggering them but still an issue.
Personally I think a big thing that might've helped me when I tried to go through, would've been having a better way to practice on your own. It's extremely difficult to pass the course on your own, and when you classmates won't study with you it is kind of a bummer.
scroom38@reddit
The schoolhouse is the screening, and we need more/bigger schoolhouses. ATC requires a lot of skills that can't be taught, are difficult to screen for, and many people don't even realize they lack. There are plenty of ATC washouts who scored 100% on every test, but lacked a critical skill like reacting quick enough and making new plans when something unexpected happened.
Sometimes the company realizes it's cheaper to burn people out than it is to properly staff and pay a workplace. After all if you ignore a problem hard enough it just magically goes away right?
samw1ch@reddit
Pay is also the problem.
cu_nexttue@reddit
Controllers are quitting the job outright because they can’t even get to the facilities with higher pay a decade or more into their career. Even at higher pay facilities the work/ life balance is so bad that it’s simply not worth it when you can’t even afford a mortgage payment without working hundreds of hours of ot. Controller morale is terrible right now and people are resigning at all faculty levels. Higher pay would retain some.
TheRealNobodySpecial@reddit
It doesn’t help that for years, qualified applicants were denied because they didn’t match the biographical profile that was desired at the time.
HairTrafficControl@reddit
Pay is absolutely part of the problem. The FAA is losing controllers mid career now because the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. That’s never been a factor before. We’re talking controllers 10 years in who have 10-20 years left to serve just straight leaving the FAA because this job is not worth it anymore.
We haven’t had a meaningful raise in over a decade. Trainees are showing up at facilities and quitting when they see what the Quality of Life v Pay the FAA is offering really is.
You would be an idiot to get into ATC instead of flying right now. It’s going to continue to get worse before it gets better.
RavenholdIV@reddit
Instead of flying? Naw there aint no instead about it, ATC is being fed to the crows. It's a dogshit career path in any practical sense and anyone worth of the career would do better in so many other careers. Flying, plumbing, IT, tons of good paying work at 40 hours a week without lives on the line.
hatdude@reddit
Pay and QOL are huge issues for ATC. People are quitting the job (like me) for other jobs because the pay isn’t worth the shit QOL you get from the job.
jet-setting@reddit
Ah, but have you heard of our lord and savior, ChatGPT?
nhorvath@reddit
if we can't afford to staff 2 controllers overnight, we should close airports at night. that will be more visible and get people writing thier reps.
Bright-Pilot-3970@reddit
3 person mids would be the obvious answer but getting that third person is practically impossible. 2 on position at all times while one takes a break. Right now we combine down to 1 around 11:30 or midnight depending on traffic while the other one takes a break.
Pileopilot@reddit
As a controller, I have to tell you the truth about how you’ll get that. You won’t like it, and you’ll think I’m being dramatic, but I’m not.
A lot of you and your pax need to become statistics. Once people quit flying and the economic impact is big enough, then they will care. Until then,the people sitting at big desks that can make actual decisions, they are just going to find some other thing to blame it on.
Look at DCA, lots of helos flew that route and nothing ever happened. Sure some TCAS RAs but no one ever hit. One in a million chance. This one, sure it’s really shitty that it happened, but how many times a day does a vehicle cross a runway nation wide. I’m betting it would come close to buying me a nice new car if I got a dollar for each one. One in a million chance. Prior to DCA, weren’t we on like a 10 years streak without a major passenger crash? That just “proves” that it can be done with the available resources, and hey, we have more technology now and AI! (That’s written with a very sarcastic tone.) Until more big things happen, nothing will happen.
All the time I spent working for the FAA, I said it would take something like DCA to make people change things. Nope. I tried to help devise a local area hiring program, based around harder to staff and remote areas, no interest in helping me figure out what I had to do to get it to where it needed to go. The ATO isn’t going to change the way they do things until someone in a bigger office makes them, and when they do, you’re gonna want to hit your head on the wall.
So, right now, all you can do is write your reps and hope you’re not in the front seat when the next one happens. But even then, what are reps going to do. They don’t give a shit and unless we pool our money to buy them, nothing will happen. I mean, look at TSA right now. They voted down a bill to fund them alone, just because they didn’t get a win out of it. So, as far expecting our elected representatives to help us out, it’s that old wish in one hand thing.
So, to all of you that are out there and up there, be safe. The system is broken and the only way it’s going to get enough attention to be rebuilt is if enough of you bleed. I hate it, I have plenty of friends that pay their bills from the left and right seats, I hate doing the friend inventory after reading about accidents, but that’s where we are in my opinion.
Newflyer3@reddit
I was telling my GF on the commute to work today that eventually you'll hear on the news that a heavy foreign 777 will land on SFO 28s and TBone a fully loaded 73 taking off the 1s and that safety policy only evolves when blood is shed.
canuck791@reddit
Part of my threat breifing in SFO every single time is awareness of landing traffic on 28. And if we dont feel comfortable we don't start the roll. I've never had to do it but I am always primed and ready for a reject or rejecting departure clearance.
Brambleshire@reddit
Smart
Dizzy-Ad-9061@reddit
I avoid operating into SFO cause the way that airport’s run is ridiculous.
Not crazy about PHX either but more for other reasons that wouldn’t lead to incidents like this
Flimsy_Condition1461@reddit
How’s MSP? I’m flying PIT to MSP next week and got real nervous when I realized it’s joint civil/military.
Dizzy-Ad-9061@reddit
Yeah that’d be interesting for sure. Never operated into MSP, just seen it 100 times passing over on a clear day
Dizzy-Ad-9061@reddit
Never gone into it so couldn’t tell ya
Newflyer3@reddit
For sure. I remember my buddy telling me how sweaty his palms were riding the bike handles on the 175 on short final 28R first time and you see a UA 757 passing through the 1s lifting off as you get your minimum call outs.
You just wonder how tower has the gall to clear 4 other planes behind you to land at the same time while they're telling everyone and they're mother to line and wait on the 1s.
Dizzy-Ad-9061@reddit
Yea it’s definitely a high risk airport too for stuff like that. I think enough carriers complaining about RA’s on the bridge visual so I’ve heard that’s been a little better but wouldn’t be surprised if you’re still reading the registration on the parallel traffic coming in.
Successful_Side_2415@reddit
I’m a pilot. I have great hearing, I speak clearly. Have my degree, work in a 6 figure tech job. I own a home, have a wonderful wife, wonderful life. I would LOVE to quit and take a job in my local control tower.
Doing so would require me throw away my entire life, go to OKC for months and then move to a shit city with shit pay and shit shifts until maybe, 10-20 years down the road, I could move back home. And people don’t want to do this???
Schmitty21@reddit
Pilots don't make good controllers anyway.
cosmonaut2@reddit
Controllers make inept pilots.
MT_Millenial@reddit
Agree completely. I'm an aviation dispatcher for wildfires, was interested in ATC until I saw the whole " be assigned to a random place" component after academy
IMadeAMistakeSry@reddit
You said it perfectly. Pay and QOL should be so great in ATC we attract applicants like you or engineers, doctors, software engineers. But no one smart enough would sign up for the shit we have to deal with. They would if the pay got fixed.
redditburner_5000@reddit
But they'll pay you until you die and it's awesome job stability.
techdaddy321@reddit
Well, they'll mostly pay you except when they don't and you get to pay your mortgage with hopes and dreams that month.
redditburner_5000@reddit
Has back pay ever not been paid after a shutdown?
chinchin__pilot@reddit
This is also the reason why people hate being airline pilots.
irishluck949@reddit
Commuting sucks, but at least it’s an option for pilots
Successful_Side_2415@reddit
I chose to stop after my private for these same reasons. Figured I could get a nice software job and fly for fun. I only regret it occasionally!
drywalldaffy@reddit
“My mindset goes to this article and how much we have to take safety training seriously. https://medium.com/@aircareinternational/training-is-not-a-checkbox-its-a-culture-17b665302214
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
The issue at LGA is gonna be the fire truck not looking before crossing. Aircraft always have the right-a-way even above emergency vehicles. Its part of SIDA driver training. The EMS guys had a hard on to get to the scene and caused two deaths.
tokencloud@reddit
My overly simplistic and crazy take on it is that there should be no mandatory overtime, controllers work maximum 40 hours a week. Maybe 45 hours but only on a voluntary basis. They staff as many positions as possible. When they can't staff a minumum number of positions (i.e., ground and local at the tower, or arrivals and departures at the TRACON), then that facility closes. That forces a 1-in, 1-out situation for IFR traffic. It slows things down so much that the airlines pressure the powers that be to get their ATC hiring, training, and pay situation figured out.
akav8r@reddit
Controllers would never agree to this. There are a lot who count on the OT to survive.
dynamic_fluid@reddit
If people need to work so much overtime to make ends meet that they’re fatigued and not able to perform their job safely then something is very wrong with the system.
I don’t know all the details of what it’s like to work as ATC but on a very surface level it seems a bit selfish to want to work a bunch of OT to the point where you’re not fit for duty just so that you get more money.
They should be both well-compensated and not work more hours than is safe. I imagine this is what most controllers would prefer too.
pendingleave@reddit
Yeah there is something very wrong with the system. Cost of living pay raise was 1% last year. Purposely doing that over a long period of time has degraded purchasing power.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
What makes you automatically think they need overtime to “make ends meet?” You know there’s no shortage of people that like the extra money and/or would spend more than they make regardless of income.
dynamic_fluid@reddit
I was replying to a post which said: “there are a lot who count on OT to survive”
I also like picking up extra trips for extra money, but I don’t need to, am not required to, and don’t do it when I’m not fit; this is the way to go.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Oh I understand, I just think some believe that if you just raise someone’s pay they all of a sudden won’t need overtime. When in reality, it just means they’re gonna buy a bigger boat and still need overtime.
HairTrafficControl@reddit
Just as an example, I don’t work there.
A new CPC at BUR makes around $125-130k a year. A 2 bedroom apartment in BUR is gonna run you around $3k/mth and forget about ever being able to afford a house near there.
Their staffing is also around 67% so nobody can transfer to a higher paying facility if they wanted to.
This reality is why NATCA has been a complete disaster and why controllers rely on OT.
Controllers in the Bay Area at any facility under ZOA are legally considered a low income household.
It’s well past time to fix it. But instead we keep extending the contract and telling new controllers to suck it up.
canuck791@reddit
Too bad.
Piperita@reddit
I mean they can also be given a pay raise, which they are probably due anyways. I doubt they wouldn’t agree to making more money and working less.
tokencloud@reddit
Fair. I suspected that would be the case, but like I said my comment was overly simplistic. My thoughts are with you all.
CharacterSchedule700@reddit
I'm not ATC, but this seems like truly the only realistic solution. ATC should probably strike, but they'd probably get fucked by the fed.
We have a country that has underfunded critical infrastructure for decades, which pushes more and more regional travel onto airlines and airports. Then we also underfund the systems that make airports safe. Suddenly there are two once in a decade accidents in 14 months.
TransientVoltage409@reddit
There should definitely be a strike. I'm completely gobsmacked that ATC workers simply continue to endure this kind of abuse without pushing back. It's not as if these workers can be easily replaced by scab hires. If there was a ready source of qualified people, there wouldn't be an understaffing problem to begin with.
This is not going to get fixed until not fixing it becomes too painful to bear.
CharacterSchedule700@reddit
Its illegal for them to go on strike, but at the same time, what more could they do to make it worse for ATC at this point?
TransientVoltage409@reddit
"Illegal to strike" is nonsense. They are not slaves, they are either contractors or at-will employees. Nobody can force them to work. Not to say there might not be consequences, such as breach of contract or simply getting fired for no-show. But again, when the core problem is a lack of workers, firing workers isn't solving the problem.
The only legitimate use of "illegal to strike" is the government's own rule prohibiting the government from negotiating with striking workers. Like all such rules, it's a make-believe thing that will change when there is enough pressure to do so.
that1_trainee@reddit
It is quite literally a felony for a federal worker to strike
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1918
TransientVoltage409@reddit
Are you OK with that? Morally and ethically?
that1_trainee@reddit
Doesn't matter whether I'm okay with it or not. With this current administration, going to prison is pretty much guaranteed if anyone strikes.
TransientVoltage409@reddit
Quitting isn't striking. Everybody can quit.
I can't be the only one seeing this absurdity though. You (collectively) hold all the cards here, you're an incredibly important and scarce resource for which there is no substitute. How badly have you all been bullied and propagandized to believe that you somehow don't have any power or choices here?
that1_trainee@reddit
ATC is a golden hundcuff. Our skillsets do not easily transfer to other fields, let alone a field that will pay us on par of what we make now. Those who have other fields they can go to have already gone or will.
flyingkea@reddit
Moving countries is one option. I live in Australia and I recently heard we’re getting a bunch of US controllers moving here
CharacterSchedule700@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)
"On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work, the Reagan administration fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order, and banned them from federal service for life."
hatdude@reddit
ATC went on strike once. It was historic.
Kermit-de-frog1@reddit
As was the consequence as I recall.
ATC is absolutely a public service / first responder organization . No different than Ems, firefighters, or cops. The difference is that they will have thousands of lives primarily dependent on them, every day, multiple times a day . I can’t imagine the stress that would cause long term and I’m prior .mil and work a life/death high stress job. I don’t think you could pay me enough to take that gig.
If nothing else , There are lots of us who are grateful,as hell for our controllers and the job you do !
perfect_fifths@reddit
They’re not allowed to.
NYPuppers@reddit
The issue is that our government is inept. At this point even moneyed, smart interests are having trouble getting the federal government to move on things we all agree on. Full focus is on the foreign policy circus show and meme politics, because that's where the power is.
SeaMareOcean@reddit
I want to make this clear: This is by design, comments like yours are the goal. The government is right now, deliberately, maliciously inept. They are accomplishing the goal of making you lose faith in government so that you turn to private industry to sell the services that you’ve already paid for.
Government doesn’t have to be inept, but a three-generation-long campaign of systemic sabotage and dismantling of useful government services is nearing its end game.
NYPuppers@reddit
not everything is some evil plan. sometimes people are just inept. sometimes people are just ideologues. there's no commercial purpose for the iranian war - it is either just ineptitude or driven by people with a very specific middle east agenda or both.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
then what the fuck purpose is there?
ManifestDestinysChld@reddit
If you ask Pete Hegseth it's because he's got this really neat 2,000 year old book that he's very into, and his favorite chapters are metal as hell.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
The current administration is perfectly comfortable with the concept of jihad, they just don't like the name.
NYPuppers@reddit
spoiler alert there is an ally of ours that really really really dislikes iran
chinchin__pilot@reddit
The only purpose for any conflict in the Middle East is money
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
War is bad except when I do it
__joel_t@reddit
Defense contractors would disagree.
video_bits@reddit
Additionally, watch oil company stocks and profits. If it's anything like all the past conflicts, they go up and up. Rather than short supply being a problem, it ends up being a positive for them.
Greenie302DS@reddit
The US is a net exporter of oil. So increased prices mean more profit.
micahpmtn@reddit
" . . . there's no commercial purpose for the iranian war . . ."
Huh? Have you not been paying attention? Like not at all? The orange creamsicle does nothing if it doesn't have dollar signs attached to it, somewhere down the line.
chinchin__pilot@reddit
He is a businessman and not a president
SeaMareOcean@reddit
Brother, they literally detailed these plans in Project 2025, and countless other documents and initiatives promoted over the last 50 years by the Heritage Foundation and their ilk. You’re literally watching it happen in real time and pretending it’s not.
FreeVektor@reddit
These problems have been happening in the FAA since I got hired almost 20yrs ago. This isn’t a new problem.
__joel_t@reddit
The only serious proposals for privatizing US ATC call for it to be a non-profit, similar to how Canada has done it. Sure, there are complaints from Canadians, so it might not be done perfectly, but I'm not aware of anybody who has gotten rich from the Canadian privatization.
Sometimes there are things the government just doesn't do a very good job of.
coldnebo@reddit
why are there no serious for-profit proposals?
__joel_t@reddit
Because it would be a terrible idea and also not a good way to make a lot of money.
ManifestDestinysChld@reddit
Weaponized Incompetence
Successful_Side_2415@reddit
They did it with the USPS too. Intentionally sabotaged it years back so that it wouldn’t be possible to turn a profit. Ever since, they have been trying to privatize it.
FailedCriticalSystem@reddit
It's a service, it doesn't need profit.
Successful_Side_2415@reddit
Correct, it doesn’t need to profit. But the justification the republicans give for closing the post office is that it’s constantly losing money. The only reason it’s losing money is because of laws they passed. So they purposely made it so the post office can’t break even, then complain that it’s losing money, then try to privatize it. Won’t be surprised when they try privatizing ATC.
FailedCriticalSystem@reddit
privatizing ATC is the goal. Leon I mean Elon is going to get to control flights. Pay more for short cuts. Pay more for preferred landing and take off times. Etc.
The post office used to have amazing services and if I remember correctly they had banking services too!
dopexile@reddit
Nothing like opening Reddit for a great conspiracy theory!
xixoxixa@reddit
As has been the right wing playbook for at least the last 4 decades. Run on the premise that government is broken, get elected, then actually break it to prove the point.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
ATC staffing issues is not a new development. I'm all for bashing the current admin but don't let it distract you from the fact that this doesn't really have anything to do with the current admin other than that, just like the previous few admins, they're not really doing anything to fix it.
Brambleshire@reddit
True, but he has been president for 6 of the last ten years, with 2 more to go
FlyingPetRock@reddit
I prefer to use the phrase "lobotomized."
There is truly no one sane at the controls anymore.
FlyAirbusB6@reddit
Well said. You can write your representatives until you’re out of paper… They don’t care.
tokencloud@reddit
These are good points as well. My initial comment is overly simplistic, but I completely agree with you.
tomdarch@reddit
Years ago it was obvious that the FAA needed to be funded to increase the number of controllers. That means paying the current people a good deal more to retain them and to make the job more appealing to those considering pursuing it. The training system needs to be expanded significantly, and that costs money.
Yes. I am talking about throwing money at the problem. Sometimes that is what is needed. We have tens or hundreds billions available for other "needs." We are now at the point where it is obvious that the "crisis times" are here. Talk with any controllers and it is insane with what they are doing currently.
skintwo@reddit
And doge using a bunch of children with ai fired all the new ones. Every time I think we’re at rock bottom it gets worse.
homeinthesky@reddit
Over simplistic is probably what we need at this point. I’ll take anything that even begins to force a fundamental change at this point, ANYTHING. I’m putting my life and that of my passengers In ATC hands every… fucking… flight. Controllers need help, and needed it a decade ago, and I see this making it worse on them not better.
We as pilots train to take risk out of our operation. Airplane manufactures engineer to take risk out of our operation. Companies who operate these aircraft do so in a way which takes risk out of the operation (at least, on paper and in the public eye, it’s up to us crews to push back on them when those lines get crossed, which they do frequently).
The one part we have little to no control over has become the largest threat to the operation, and its staffing and QOL inside of ATC facilities. The solution? “The beatings and whippings will continue and increase in duration and frequency until morale improves!”
hatdude@reddit
This is what I said when I was a controller. People need to stop taking handoffs and handling the shit sandwich they’re given. Say no. Put people in unscheduled airborne holding because it’s not staffed properly and you can’t work what you’re being given.
74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit
To piggyback on that, I don't cut my transmissions short to accommodate busy controllers.
My transmissions are 100% in compliance with FAR/AIM/Manufacturer/Company policies and procedures to ensure safety with effective communication.
This stepping all over each other on the radio bullshit has to stop, yesterday.
MiniTab@reddit
Well said, and absolutely agreed. Only thing to add is that this goes back more than a decade. I’d say at least 20 years.
Comair 5191 crashed in LEX in 2006, partially because one controller was overworked and doing Ground, Tower, and who knows what else.
andrewrbat@reddit
Didnwe just fly together? My fo said the exact same thing about the dca crash (your last paragraph) when we flew together last week.
homeinthesky@reddit
I haven’t flown for two weeks so, sadly not.
tokencloud@reddit
Yep! Couldn't have said it better myself.
atcthrowaway452@reddit
1 in, 1 out at a class Bravo is insanely difficult for the center. I've only seen it happen once, in the evening with no warning. Most of the center staff had gone home, so 3 controllers had to hold 35 aircraft at 4 approach gates. It was an absolute nightmare that took the better part of an entire night to resolve. Not a viable solution in my opinion
ZeeRated@reddit
Agreed. Back to the basics is what needs to happen. Things cannot continue the way they’re going now.
Kdj2j2@reddit
Great. How do we pay for it? The American people do not want to be taxed. The airlines pay no corporate taxes. The wealthy (despite using more of the system than anyone else) pay less than any mainline captain. The fuel tax only goes to hard infrastructure (at least that was the rule a few years ago). So how do you pay for it?
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
By not sending $200B to Israel whenever they ask for it
chinchin__pilot@reddit
There are much more important things that need money right now than Israel
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
That would be the point of my comment, yes.
dopexile@reddit
Airline tickets include multiple layers of government-imposed taxes and fees that can account for 20% to 25% of the total ticket cost
tokencloud@reddit
For not wanting to be taxed, we sure do pay a lot of taxes. I don't have an answer to your question, but I can't say that money is more important than human life and aviation safety. The powers that be need to figure it out. I'm sure somehow, someway, we will end up paying for it.
Kdj2j2@reddit
I never said “we.” I said the corporations and wealthy that use it the most should pay. And there’s the problem. When I (a plain line pilot) pay more than my CEO, there’s a problem.
xixoxixa@reddit
But that's the point, we as citizens already pay an astronomical amount in taxes, the money is there, it is just being used for other bullshit. We send between $3 and $4 billion to Israel annually, let's stop doing that and re-invest that into our country. We spend more on defense than the next 9 countries combined, and seven of those are in some form allies. We waste so much fucking money on defense it is astronomically laughable (and I say this as a 20+ year army guy, we definitely could save billions and not even notice).
dynamic_fluid@reddit
Agreed; the money is there, it’s just poorly allocated.
I suspect that we’d even complain less about taxes if we saw them going to places that made meaningful impact and improved our infrastructure.
chinchin__pilot@reddit
Agreed, mandatory overtime, especially in a position that has this much impact on safety, is not a winning strategy.
xixoxixa@reddit
They mandate a retirement age because the skills degrade, but sure, go ahead and work 100+ hour weeks for months on end.
tokencloud@reddit
I get your sentiment, but I'm not sure that you read what I said because that is the opposite of what I suggested.
Peacewind152@reddit
This is the solution. Sadly, those in a place to make things happen, clearly have very big "school shootings" energy about everything. Where the solutions are so clearly obvious, but god forbid they have to make life difficult for some people to fix the issue.
__joel_t@reddit
A big part of the problem is the same entity (the FAA) is both the "air navigation service provider" (i.e., ATC) AND the safety regulator for ATC. It's a classic conflict of interest, and it's why separating the ANSP from the safety regulator is an ICAO best practice.
Jp95060@reddit
Seems pretty obvious that ATC staffing is an ongoing problem. It’s amazing with airplane crash’s going up people dying the issue has not been addressed.
No-Cell-8208@reddit
My take as an airline industry consultant - the easier fix right now is to put operational caps on these airports. The airlines and consumer groups will hate it, but if you can't train and bring up to speed new controllers for several years, that's the only other solution.
confusedguy1212@reddit
Ya that’s a nice idea bummer that the US gambled its whole mode of public transportation on air alone. Literally shooting themsleves in the foot on any and all other possible modes.
Oh well what else is new.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
I mean you'd have the same problem with high speed rail if you had massive shortages of conductors and they were overworked and exhausted all the time.
confusedguy1212@reddit
If you had rail you’d most likely have multiple private companies competing. Not one government entity running it all. You’d also have more redundancy in terms of modes of transport.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Are you suggesting to privatize ATC?
confusedguy1212@reddit
No not at all. I’m suggesting alternatives to air transportation and while we’re at it to car dependency as well.
jbrekz@reddit
Fully autonomous high speed trains with automated control systems (including automated emergency response) exist. It's definitely still a management problem, in that air traffic requires infinitely more management than a single train operator having exclusive use of fully grade separated rail.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
If you eliminate the staff, you no longer have staffing problems. Brilliant observation.
CarminSanDiego@reddit
Yeah that’ll never fly (no pun)
You’re asking air travel industry to take a massive cut in profits and jack up airfare costs for all
PG67AW@reddit
I agree, but that might be the impetus for garnering wider industry support. If we get the airlines pissed at the FAA (or, rather, the government bodies that vote for fund appropriations), then maybe we’ll have enough leverage to lobby for actual change.
MarchMafia@reddit
This is the best temporary solution. Only way to reduce the strain on the system now is to reduce traffic. Mid to long term we need to get onto a more advanced system and adequately staff every tower. Perhaps the NY air space needs reworking as well
ExtraAssociate1104@reddit
If we had effing trains in this country, that would ease it.
BustedMeJesusNut@reddit
Yupper. Cap movements and let the travelling/voting public make a decision in a couple years.
owlz725@reddit
You do realize that LGA already has an operational cap, right?
No-Cell-8208@reddit
Yes, and I'm saying it's not enough. My ATC friends tell me that 11pm hour is the worst because the earlier shift goes home at 10:30pm leaving the overnight shift to handle any delays that push into the period after.
owlz725@reddit
I guarantee that will be something NTSB and the FAA will be evaluating here
ljthefa@reddit
Great but do we expect any change? I don't
owlz725@reddit
Only if the incident was caused at least in part by constrained capacity
serrated_edge321@reddit
Someone here is an actual professional! Yes this is the answer (but also one that no one will want to hear).
SAVAGE297X@reddit
I wrote Pilot's Mindset For Success because a lot of what actually makes you a solid pilot isn’t really taught in depth… things like decision-making under pressure, staying sharp, discipline, and confidence in the cockpit.
Whether you’re a student pilot or already flying, this is the kind of stuff that really levels you up.
Just wanted to share it here for anyone serious about improving 👍
DM me and I will send the link
Any_Suspect7996@reddit
What about when the command center in DC says we know you’re short staffed and in a staffing trigger but you will not go below the rate we think you can handle.
AnarchyCan1@reddit
The issue is clearing planes to land when they're not actually clear. There should only ever be one thing cleared to be on a runway, be that plane, truck, whatever.
FAA is the only place on the planet that will clear you to land when you're 5th in the approach. It's dumb. It doesn't speed things up.
It leads to things like this, if jazz didn't get landing clearance until short final then the controller likely would have not given two clearances at the same time on the same runway.
Handag@reddit
I can almost guarantee the controller was left alone during the mid shift. It’s a common practice to staff two controllers from 10pm to 6am, then split the shift into two 4 hour blocks so each can get some rest.
The FAA will likely say that isn’t an approved practice and that the controller shouldn’t have been alone. But the reality is they’ve turned a blind eye to it because it allows them to keep forcing 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag.
I’ve said it before, we don’t just need more staffing, we need better pay and quality of life for controllers. Staff it with the best and make it THE premier government job. Controllers have an outsized impact on the economy, yet many are making less than a first year FO, and even the top earners are only at the level of about year 3 to 4 FO pay at a major, all while working six days a week.
Change the aviation trust fund rules to make it accessible during a shutdown so a controller never has to go without pay again, make private jet owners pay their fair share into the system so we can finally increase pay for controllers.
All there aircraft orders are great for pilots but who’s going to work them in the airspace system?
canuck791@reddit
4 hour shift is crazy. In Canada AFAIK they have maximum shift times before mandatory breaks. I dont remember what it is but it's short. Like sub (guessing here) 45min 15min off.
txoa@reddit
Yes, there are more reasonable maximum times before breaks during a normal shift during the day. On the overnight shift we tend to divide it down the middle for the best chance at a larger block of uninterrupted sleep.
Occasionally there's some bullshit directive that comes down requiring the two people overnight to rotate several times, with no more than two hours working. Suggesting two disjointed miserable blocks of about 90 minutes each of sleep. Clearly conceived by someone who has never worked such a shift.
One might say, sleep? How about these entitled controllers stay awake while at work getting paid like the rest of the world. That would also be said by someone who has never worked a week of rotating shift work while existing in the world with a life and family.
canuck791@reddit
I mean I get what you're saying. As a pilot I understand fatigue as well as any ATC. But when you are a single person at night for extended time at your circadian low, it is prime for errors. That's human factors, it hasn't changed. At night perhaps 1/1 is too agressive but 4/4 seems in my opinion too long. I can't say what the solution would be as I don't do your job, I just have experience with fatigue and overseas flying doing similar shifts so you're not talking into the void here.
Loud-Calligrapher552@reddit
Shiitttt our ATM is pushing maximum time on position and minimum breaks. High level TRACON on the west coast.
canuck791@reddit
I was off on the time. From Google referencing NAV Canada.
Rotation Schedule: Shifts typically rotate from mornings to evenings to midnights, often with 1 hour on, 1 hour off, or 90–120 minutes on duty followed by a 30-minute break.
MeeowOnGuard@reddit
It’s really not as bad as the media is putting it out to be. My facility is allegedly 73% staffed and we’re still on break most of the shift. We just aren’t opening positions enough. Too focused on our next break, keeping shit combined up.
stuck_inmissouri@reddit
This is by design. The GOP has been gutting federal services for years so they can come back and say “see, the system doesn’t work. Let’s privatize!” This administration just put that into overdrive.
Infrastructure funding is a fraction of what it once was.
weggaan_weggaat@reddit
Yep, they've been trying to privatize ATC for a long time because surely private companies wouldn't operate in a similar manner but with lower pay/benefits to the employees themselves.
blowurhousedown@reddit
I’m pretty sure I’m powerless on this immediate fix.
weggaan_weggaat@reddit
Hang it by the FBO, might get a few more honks.
swakid8@reddit
Mod note here….
Do bother suggesting that pilot unions should strike…. It’s going to happen and it’s not legal to do so under the RLA unless mediator released both Management and Pilots into self-help during Section 5 negotiations….
BusterOCaps@reddit
Pilots have the authority to not fly if the flight is not safe. I would argue, if I had the opportunity, that the pilots can check to make sure that the staffing levels of the departure and destination airport at a minimum were met per whatever atc publishes. If it’s not, you don’t fly. No strike required, and no ability to retaliate as long as everyone does it and holds to the government’s published requirements. Pilots accepting additional risk is something pilots have the lawful authority to refuse.
soaring_weenie@reddit
Very quick way to end up in the chief pilots office fighting for your job. Yes, we have some say and I can make my decision as a captain legally. Whether that’s refusing a jet or delaying for something. Doing as you suggested and making a plan afternoon out of it, and you won’t be employed long. We need to find a way to protect our job while voicing our concerns (mostly entails voicing concerns/actions through our union).
Winston_Sm@reddit
It's mindbogglingly strange to me that in your jurisdiction that's not an option. It'll cost many more lives
swakid8@reddit
I don’t know where you are located at. In the US, the Railway Labor Act (ROA) is the guideline that controls Airline/Railroad relations between Management and Labor. This is law was enacted to protect interstate commerce in the US.
Management and Labor both can’t up and do any un-sanctioned job action…. For example, if every pilot decided to randomly strike for any reason, Airline management will immediately get every union shop into court very quickly in front of a arbitrator/judge.
The arbitrator/judge can and very likely will rule against unions determined what penalties will be. Those penalties could easily equal to concessions within CBAs crossed the industry that literally took years to claw back….
Same goes for Management with unions having the ability to sue management.
Delta CEO screwed up awhile back boasting about his management teams leverage during contract negotiations, and the arbitrator who oversaw their mediation forced them to the table or else….
The arbitrator/judge can and very likely will rule against unions determined what penalties will be. Those penalties could easily equal to concessions within CBAs crossed the industry that literally took years to claw back….
This why it’s a serious matter that any suggestion of airline labor unions to strike in the US is going to fall on deaf ears…
The RLA is a two-way street.
There are other means to enact change and those changes take time with the way out political system works in the US. Also, unfortunately it going to take lives…
here4daratio@reddit
Did u mean to say, “don’t bother”?
PapaDoobs@reddit
and "It's not going to happen"?
This message is very confusing.
swakid8@reddit
Holy typos… thanks.
swakid8@reddit
Yes
Thanks for CRM backup!
s2soviet@reddit
In Brazil, ATC Services have a mix of civilian and military personnel.
I don’t see why the Air Force could not send some of their personnel to help, increasing personnel and developing the career field to include controllers at both military and civilian airports.
This would all cost time and money, but, frankly is there any solution that does not?
It’s just a thought.
Approach_Controller@reddit
The military has so few controllers at their own towers, the DOD civilians covering are too short to allow anything resembling normal ops to non military aircraft often times. I'm not sure what number of military controllers you think you'd get exactly when they can barely cover themselves
Then theres the logistics that you'd encounter. You'd not sending 18 year old E2s to anything remotely like LGA. You'd have to send your mid career people, the very people you'd normally use to mentor and train those new military controllers.
Then theres the issue of military ATC ≠ always directly translatable to civilian ATC compounded with years long training times.
So you...what? Send your NCOs for the duration of their second enlistment to help the FAA while your junior military controllers recieve training from a drastically diminished pool of experts and knowledge base. All the while being entirely unable to staff military towers, having knock on effects to military aviation readiness.
Ive spoken to several Brazilian controllers.
A) They have mandatory service so they can absolutely spend manpower on these sorts of things
B) They'll be the first to tell you they all believe a main reason they staff all airports with military members (and ATC in Brazil isnt part military part civilian, its nearly or entirely military)is so they can get away with paying junior enlisted wages to a white collar profession.
brrrrrrrrtttttt@reddit
Mil has been continually cutting their ATC companies and pushing it up to contractors.
We’re also in a situation now where we allow military to do only military versions of things but not civilian ones. Engineers are another prime example. The US Army corps of engineers built a large amount of roads, bridges, and dams prior to the 1980s but are now extremely limited in their ability to do anything outside of a military installation or combat zone due to red tape and lack of accreditation (even though they built a substantial amount of our infrastructure and we let it slide back in the day.)
The same thing is happening with mil ATC. We can have them do ASRs and PARs and push clearances to FAA/ICAO but we can’t give them accreditation for civilian operations.
My best guess is because we’d lose all of them after a first term contract for civilian opportunities or they’d go insane at an actual airport with the volume of traffic.
cicinaulianovsk@reddit
Actually, here in Brazil there are very few civilians, very few indeed, I'd say about 99% are military... it works well here, I'm very grateful that we have an efficient system with few incidents like this.
aeternus-eternis@reddit
Can we take a step back though and consider that voice over AM radio is an insane way to be controlling aircraft in 2026?
Like we're all used to it but if aviation were new and someone proposed this as the mechanism the person would be laughed out of the room.
bterrik@reddit
I actually disagree with this a little. I mean we're using enroute CPDLC now and that is great.
But I don't want to see that deployed to the approach, ground, and (especially) tower level. I want to hear the clearances that those around me are receiving, because that contributes to the mental picture that I'm building around me. Now, I will grant you that in this case, that SA didn't save the crew (or, there was nothing they could do about it, I suppose we'll learn later), but being able to hear other clearances is a useful tool.
aeternus-eternis@reddit
If I were designing modern avionics, it would show the clearance path that other planes have, especially those near or intersecting your route of flight. Radio-based SA sometimes works but also often fails when frequencies are split, relative position isn't clear, or when workload is high.
Much easier to handle in a UI that can highlight important potentially conflicting paths, fade out less important non-conflicting paths, etc.
I agree it seems less safe if everyone switches to datalink clearances without replacing that the SA provided by shared radio.
txoa@reddit
We have the technology
57thStilgar@reddit
I wonder if the OP listened to the pre-incident audio?
followMeUp2Gatwick@reddit
The age limits is whacky. Mandatory retirement age sure but doesn't mean you can have less years. Oh well.
airboss1971@reddit
Because I’m a controller I’m biased, I retired from the USAF at the age of 39. There used to be a program where retired military controllers could join the FAA under a program (Phoenix 20) but I think that was discontinued. I would gladly jump into ANY busy facility and provide some relief. Disclaimer: I’m 55 and a current Air Traffic Manager at a DoD facility, but have both tower and radar experience with a current Class II medical.
I love air traffic and have been at some busy facilities (USAF, DoD, & contract).
FAA needs to take another look at folks in my position when they “retire” from the military.
NecessaryLight2815@reddit
All I can say is my heart absolutely breaks for that controller in LGA the other night.
IMFKNLO@reddit
Get rid of the stupid low age restriction. I’m 35 hold my ppl and would love to apply but can’t
Schmitty21@reddit
Having a PPL is worthless to ATC. Pilots don't automatically make good controllers, usually the opposite.
theweenerdoge@reddit
By the time you got to your facility you'd be pushing 40. As someone with experience that re-trained at 40, you're not as sharp as you were when you were younger. It's just a fact. Not saying you wouldn't make it, but I dont think it's really a solution that helps us long term. We have tens of thousands of applicants every year, that's not the problem. The quality of the applicants is the problem.
EliteEthos@reddit
This!
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
Honestly it’s getting to the point where I think ALPA should strike. Start saving money if you aren’t already guys.
swakid8@reddit
That’s not going to happen….
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
Yeah let’s just do nothing about it because the politicians will definitely fix the problem
swakid8@reddit
Find a different legal mechanism that will result in changes…
bterrik@reddit
To be fair, each and every one of our airlines or air lines empowers us to call safety timeouts or otherwise discontinue unsafe operation.
I'm considering whether it's appropriate to use that authority more broadly. For example, giving a standby or potentially an unable response to an anticipatory landing clearance. If one guy does it, that guy is gonna get told to go around and be a serious nuisance. But if we all did it, we could end the practice in about 5 minutes regardless of FAA policy.
This is not attempting to gain leverage for negotiations. It's not a union versus company issue. It's not a strike. I think it's not inappropriate for the safety arm of ALPA to consider whether we, as the last line of defense in the safe operation of our aircraft, need to consider more broadly using that authority when certain signs of ATC overwork are visible or that certain procedures (like the helos at DCA) no longer contribute to safety.
winterswift@reddit
Aside from the obvious immediate fix of reducing traffic in congested parts of the NAS, the NAS users, especially the commercial airlines directly affected by these disasters (including their marketing carriers), need to speak up and demand structural changes in ATC and how it is run & funded by the FAA and Congress respectively. Politics has failed this system for decades and it’s clearly not getting better. A holistic solution for US ATC is complex and needs to come from people with experience and direct stakeholders, not the court of public opinion.
Perhaps this is accomplished thru IATAN, A4A, etc.; I don’t have all the answers, but perhaps these industry groups should guarantee funding themselves if the government keeps failing to do so. Sure, “woe, our corporate profits” but people will avoid flying if this trend continues.
Just hiring more people is not a complete fix for how we got here and puts additional strain on the same already-stretched controllers (CPCs) for the foreseeable future. Clearly controllers themselves are not being listened to, which is part of why they are leaving and why we have fewer controllers today than 10 years ago. So the people whose lives are most at stake here must make it clear that without an overhaul they cannot continue operating this national infrastructure which politicians claim to be so concerned about.
The short-term mitigation needs to occur, but the big picture is making this a truly safe system again and sustainable career for the small number of people actually fit and willing to do the job.
Fun_Monitor8938@reddit
There was a proposal for a second academy because 2k through OKC a year isn’t enough. That was shot down by the Oklahoma delegation in congress.
We developed a training initiative to increase time spent training with listed impediments so we weren’t training on useless low traffic. Those impediments? Deemed unusable by the district management so we spend at least half of our training hours on minimal traffic.
With 2k academy seats we net less than 100 new controllers per year when you account for retirements and attrition. Something like 40% of the workforce is eligible for retirement in the next 5 years. Every administration sees the stress fractures and kicks the can down the road hoping the failure happens on someone else’s watch. Congress and management created the crisis and tells the controllers “train your way out of it” morale has never been lower and we all know help isn’t coming.
dopexile@reddit
Put yourself in the shoes of a government bureaucrat. Let's say they open a new training facility, and they train some air traffic controllers who cause some accidents. They'll be criticized for rushing to hire and not training properly or because the new training facility has a "bad record". The safest thing to do is not rock the boat or take any risk.
Fun_Monitor8938@reddit
It’s not a new curriculum and it’s not churning out certified controllers. The end result would be more trainees at the facilities who would still receive 1-4 years of OJT training. The second academy block was done specifically for the selfish reasons of retaining tax revenue and grant money.
dopexile@reddit
They would still need to train up a whole new school with new instructors... There is a risk that someone would have to take.
Fun_Monitor8938@reddit
The instructor shortage comes from the fact that they’re paid like shit and nobody wants to move to fucking Oklahoma. It’s not “training up” new instructors as every instructor is a retired controller. It’s not taking a risk it’s absolutely necessary.
dopexile@reddit
Just because someone worked as a controller would not qualify them as a good trainer. Not everyone agrees it is necessary, and even if they all did, that doesn't mean people are going to line up to risk their jobs to make it happen.
Lord_NCEPT@reddit
Agree with that, but it’s never been a source of concern with selecting OJTs or hiring past controllers to work at the academy.
LaserRanger_McStebb@reddit
Genuine question:
What exactly do the regional FAA offices actually fucking do?
If EVERY certification–be it Airworthiness, Medical, Pilot, or ATC–MUST be routed through OKC, why do the regional offices even exist?
jeremiah1142@reddit
FAA owns and maintains a shit ton of equipment NAS-wide. FAA therefore employs a bunch of engineers, installers, project managers, contract officers, and other support personnel to get projects done. That’s just one piece.
deltajvliet@reddit
That's insane but unsurprising OKC 2.0 got shot down. Fuck whoever shot it down. That's where the real bottleneck is.
China_bot42069@reddit
Controllers on the unsung heroes of the skies. Whatever they want they should get. Enough of this bullshit
dopexile@reddit
Sounds like that could get expensive fast!
China_bot42069@reddit
so is airliner's of bodies
jeremiah1142@reddit
Stay in your grave, Reagan
sinapse@reddit
100%. The VASAviation audio i listened to earlier surrounding this incident made it sound like it was one guy doing both twr and gnd at LGA....that's just insane right? And he had to keep working after this?! Simply unacceptable that we've let it get to this point...
perfect_fifths@reddit
One controller was operating both ground and air, yes
chinchin__pilot@reddit
Not his fault but the internet is going to be pointing fingers, and they already are...
Just as they always do, the speculators and the media are going to point the finger at the wrong person...
sinapse@reddit
Yeah it breaks my heart that this guy is already going to be feeling an immense amount of guilt and pain from this happening, and folks with zero context will go insane online - truly heartbreaking all around.
China_bot42069@reddit
one guy, on both ground and tower at a not busy class d is okay. To do that at lagurdia is just asking for a incident. It wasn't a matter "if" but "when" and if this was normal im shocked at how long it took for something like this to happen. I wonder how many near misses there must have been
No_Mango7658@reddit
Staffing was definitely a factor
TAMExSTRANGE69@reddit
One thing I never see brought up is that fact that we have hundreds of certified controllers that can't apply to the FAA because they require a certification and 52 weeks of consecutive live traffic experience after certification to apply for a prior experience bid. We have fully certified controllers working contract towers that are just waiting till they can apply FAA while ECTI and Academy grads with no live traffic experience are being sent to FAA facilties while certified controllers with 2 years of live traffic experience have to wait. If you can't expand the academy, make it easier for experienced controllers to come in Because Academy grads and ECTI people are just gonna take up training spots and take far longer to train.
ce402@reddit
I mean, you know you can’t just wave a magic wand and “fix” staffing, right?
The spool-up time is measured in years. Plural.
The time to fix this was a decade plus ago, to think the government could do anything to “fix” staffing in a year is asinine.
glidec@reddit
They need to open a second and third academy. Having a single academy is bottle necking the training so hard. With the inevitable washouts from a class that runs every few months its taking way too long to train new controllers who already take over a year to fully train. This should be a top priority but our country hates investing in public infratructure
that1_trainee@reddit
The problem with that is there aren't enough instructors for that, if that ever gets funded. Academy instructors are retired controllers. Not everyone wants to come out of retirement to teach.
Kseries2497@reddit
They might be more interested if the teaching wasn't happening in Oklahoma.
akav8r@reddit
The quality of trainees we get now is abysmal. When ATC was paid to be upper middle class, you get better quality of trainees. Now we are getting people who would struggle running a drive through at McDonalds coming through training.
The big problem with that is that we are so short staffed, there are controllers who re willing to push those people through training just so they can get better days off.
Spaceman3157@reddit
Can you give me some more context around "When ATC was paid to be upper middle class"? Looking at what I can find online, it seems like a mid-career controller should be making well over $100k per year. Is that misleading, or do you not consider that to be middle class?
akav8r@reddit
If you think $100K is anywhere near upper middle class, you have not been paying attention to the economy for the past 10 years. If controllers made today what they made back in the 90s, it would be somewhere around $400K. Someone will have to fact check me on the exact figure.
Spaceman3157@reddit
Meh. I make a similar amount of money, live in a HCOL area and I'm doing fine. Unless the internet is misleading me, it seems a good number of controllers are making double the median household income of ~$83k in the US.
theweenerdoge@reddit
Took me 7 years before I made 100k. Now I make over that but it's not enough to buy a house where I live. So trying to uproot my family again to move and find a place where i can make the same or more money in a lower cost of living area. 100k used to be the magic number to aspire to, but its really the new 50k these days.
Approach_Controller@reddit
Here's the issue.
You're an academy graduate in the terminal track picking a facility.
You have two options. Go to a level 6 or 7 and make, after certifying or a few years after certifying that 100k. Thats not bad right? Now, in order to do so, you'll move halfway across the country in many cases, never have weekends off, your facility will be at 58% staffing from now until the end of time. You'll NEVER leave, you'll be working 6 10 hour days until you retire and vacation days? Yeah sorry, you'll take your vacation in April and or October and like it.
Appealing isnt it?
Well lets look at door number 2.
You pick a level 4 with decent staffing. Aure you'll make less, ≈70k. Not bad money no, but you'll also in he ass end of nowhere which kinda sucks. You've got good staffing though so every once in a while one of the 15 of you can attempt to maybe move up. Odds of that happening? Well, theres what, spitball 11,000 certified FAA controllers now. How many were able to transfer last quarter? 28. TWENTY EIGHT. Thats one quarter of a singular percent. Some odds huh? Oh, you didnt get picked up? Here they just released CWRG. Whats CWRG you ask? Thats made up new higher staffing numbers so every podunk tower can have as many often positions as LAX for.... reasons. Now nobody ever gets to leave! And now, because staffing is so piss poor and the allure of making 70k in a half staffed tower in the ass end of nowhere isnt so strong, you dont get any more academy kids. So you too never leave!
Whats this have to do with anything at LGA etc? Its created a culture where people go from backwaters to super busy places and just arent often cut out for it. Why rip up your golden ticket out to spend your career at Midland Texas when you can take a flyer on LGA? I mean odds are you wont succeed. You dont have the base of skills from working your 1 plane an hour, but hey. Its that or bust. Used to be you took a transfer up or two before the JFKs of the world to gain experience. Not possible now.
No, I agree. 100k isnt trash money. It IS shitty when you'll never ever have a real chance to move up, get weekends off, take vacation when YOU want to, live anywhere near where you want to, work a remotely normal schedule. You can go to school for a number of jobs and trades that have similar pay and much better QOL.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
400k is near 1% money. Well above "upper middle class."
Apprehensive-Name457@reddit
We got one right now that, I'm not shitting you, got fired from the drive thru window because they couldn't talk on the headset and take orders at the same time.
akav8r@reddit
And do you have trainers/sups pushing them through?
Apprehensive-Name457@reddit
Fortunately no, SDT's currently.
Steveoatc@reddit
I have literally never seen SDT/SET work. Not one person who has ever gone through that has made it at my facility. It is the kiss of death. Usually if someone has the mental capacity to understand what’s going on, you can train them on the spot and they improve. Those who can’t, get that big old black smooch.
dopexile@reddit
It's the common theme. There is the same inertia problem with healthcare. There is a shortage of doctors because there aren't enough residency spots.
TheEpicPancake1@reddit
Absolutely. I have a friend who waited 2 years for a start date with the academy.
shana104@reddit
Ditto!!:)
flyingcircusdog@reddit
Then why shouldn't we start now? Increase the incentive for people to work there, get more applicants, offer salaries for working a set number of shifts and hours.
skippitypapps@reddit
You also need to do something about anticipated separation.
That policy is absolute insanity and the usa is the only country on planet Earth that thinks it's acceptable.
A runway should have ONE aircraft or vehicle cleared to use it at any given time.
"Number 2, cleared to land" should never be spoken ever again. If I'm number 2, then the runway isn't clear, and I should NEVER receive a clearance to use it.
Had the controller been forced to wait to clear Jazz to land (and had not been doing the job of 4 people), then that landing clearance would have been fresh in his mind when Truck 1 called up. Instead, american controllers clear every single aircraft to land the moment they check in and then forget all about them.
This policy is reckless, dangerous, and completely unacceptable, yet your government is perfectly okay with it because fuck safety, right?
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Anticipated separation, visual separation at night, combined positions without flow reduction, controllers working 6 days a week.
The USA system is designed to move traffic, at whatever cost.
Nobody can say this accident was unforeseen, not with the string of incidents happening in the past few years.
TooLowPullUp@reddit
I genuinely feel lucky that I get to spend half of my life inside the London TMA, instead of the shitshow that is the American NAS.
subguru@reddit
Pilot's Unions should strike until staffing is addressed.
swakid8@reddit
Not legal to do this…
Jar545@reddit
Who cares? Are they gonna arrest every pilot? Seems like these airlines just want to keep everyone down and afraid. If pilots don't fly, airlines don't make money. Billions in revenue that they will sorely miss. It's purely a matter of out lasting them.
swakid8@reddit
Easy for you to make that comment when you don’t even have skin in the game…
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
Legalities don’t matter when entire unions do it. That’s the whole point of striking.
swakid8@reddit
As a result give management teams in the US to sue unions and be forced to take concessions… Also to take concessions that will be difficult to claw back.
Doesn’t work that way and it’s not going to happen. ALPA. AFA, Airlines for America will use its lobby arm of their organization to try to get changes….
You also have a voice by using your vote. Vote for candidates that support the changes you want or run for office.
Suggestion unions to strike (against the RLA) will fall on deaf ears. End of discussion.
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
Aye aye Captain
srv340mike@reddit
Railway Labor Act prevents pilot strikes.
subguru@reddit
While it does (mostly), what if all pilots, one day decided ATC's current status made all flights unsafe? Then it's not a strike, its rejecting a flight. Lets start a signal chat with all the ATPs....
swakid8@reddit
Illegal Job Action….
Railway Labor Act…
subguru@reddit
Maybe. I think there's a lot of grey there. Are you going to force pilots to make flights they deem unsafe? I don't see that panning out well.
swakid8@reddit
I am going to reference my sticky comment in this thread in the matter of the Railway Labor Act…
squawkingdirty@reddit
I was shocked when Kansas Approach cleared me for the visual, to land, and taxi to park at KMCI all in one clearance at 1am.
Doesn’t matter if it’s slow that shouldn’t happen
Viola-ti-do@reddit
One person mids are extremely common. We do that at our airport for the mid everyday. Not saying its good, just saying its common across the NAS.
squawkingdirty@reddit
I can see it at a delta or Charlie but at a primary bravo? That’s wild
theweenerdoge@reddit
I'm doing it tonight 🤙
pilotbenny@reddit
Happens in TPA too
Viola-ti-do@reddit
100% agree with you on that!
srv340mike@reddit
I had that going into KALB a few years ago. Switched from Boston Center to ALB approach, tower working APP, TWR, and GND, and I got a direct FAF, cleared visual, cleared to land, taxi to park, cleared to cross all runways all-in-one clearance.
I made the controller confirm cleared to land when we inside the FAF, and verified crossing instructions when on the ground.
Sometimes you gotta take it into your own hands.
legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit
If it’s dead it’s dead🤷♂️
PT6A-27@reddit
Not an uncommon occurrence at YVR up here in Canada, even during the middle of the day, and that’s the second-busiest airport in the entire country. The ATC staffing shortage has been an ongoing issue for years and we haven’t made any meaningful steps to address it.
Places like LaGuardia and DCA have been operating on the razor’s edge of safety for years - everyone that I spoke with after the DCA crash who was familiar with the airport said the same thing: “it was just a matter of time until something like this happened” - and now we find ourselves in the same situation again. Is anything going to meaningfully change this time around?
StweebyStweeb@reddit
No money for ATC but we need 200 more billion for a war with Iran.
XchowCowX@reddit
I know this is a sensitive topic, but as an engineer, I can’t help but to wonder how AI (Predictive Analytics & Trajectory Prediction, NOT LLM, aka chatbot) can be a beneficial tool to ATC.
Of course, this must be executed and structured properly.
nobody65535@reddit
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/asde-x
Drunkenaviator@reddit
It can't. None of that is a problem currently, and trying to involve it in the sectors where we are having the issues would do nothing but slow everything down and decrease safety.
XchowCowX@reddit
So you’re saying a system that were to alert ATC on their mistake of clearing a uncleared runway would not have been beneficial?
Aviation is scared of change and I honestly believe that is why this industry is so stagnant
Drunkenaviator@reddit
I'm saying adding "AI" into the loop of split second decisions is stupid. A system for alerting ATC to runway incursions has existed for years. There's no need to try to shoehorn the latest buzzwords into it.
aeternus-eternis@reddit
TCAS is evidence that it can and is extremely successful. It's insane we're not applying the same type of system to ground movement.
XchowCowX@reddit
I fully agree and wish it would be more accepted to even discuss.
Spaceman3157@reddit
I'm an engineer working in this exactly field (albeit just recently and still coming up to speed), and I largely agree with the other commenter that it's not going to help. There are already numerous policies and technologies in place that should be working to prevent tragedies like this. Despite the fact that I am quite literally paid to come up with new technologies to improve airspace safety, I look around at the facts surrounding incidents like this one and the DCA crash and come away feeling that we need to fix what's already there and fix ATC staffing, not layer even more technology (whether it's "AI" or not) on top.
BarnackBro1914@reddit
While we are adding more ATC staff, how about more DPEs? And if more DPEs is not an option, then how about a hard cap on what they charge....let's say $500.00.
randomoniummtl@reddit
They deserve better. I feel absolutely awful for the LGA controller who was put in a position to fail like that.
texas1982@reddit
The report will bury the controller but take no blame for systemic atc failures. It's the Trump administration in charge of it all and they are unable to accept blame.
ThatGuyWhoIsCool@reddit
Time to cap flights at major airports until staffing can be corrected. Controllers are overworked and underpaid and until staffing can catch up there’s no way they can continue to handle the insane amounts of air traffic safely.
Urrolnis@reddit
Yep. Airlines with the capacity should upgauge all service into larger aircraft with less frequency. 2 757s and not 5 RJs.
We can dunk on American's busses all day long, but there's a lot of good places for that kind of service. Flint/Lansing/Saginaw to Detroit is a good example, even though DTW isnt volume constrained.
Northeast Corridor needs to be reduced bigtime.
Zinger21@reddit
If only we didn’t kill off regional/interurban rail… like you said, we should be flying fewer large aircraft between the big cities and run efficient ground transportation to the surrounding communities within 2-3 hours of said hubs.
Unfortunately it’s nearly impossible to imagine without drastic change.
Urrolnis@reddit
Passenger preference is a big factor here too, unfortunately. I can't remember the exact statistic, but an airline that controls more than 50% of flights will get something like 75% of the passengers on that specific route. So despite the passenger experience on RJs is dogshit, passengers prefer the frequency.
If airlines don't want to mutually draw down flights (looking at you, United and American in Chicago), the government has to step in. No way one airline will voluntarily do it alone.
owlz725@reddit
LGA already has a cap....
ThatGuyWhoIsCool@reddit
Yep and they should decrease slots even further
owlz725@reddit
Well, it might just happen after this incident.
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit (OP)
Yes. This is the immediate fix.
SnooChocolates2923@reddit
The anticipatory landing clearance is one of the big causes here.
The US and Canada are two of the few jurisdictions where a controller can say "Jazz646, you're #2 to what'sitcalled234, cleared to land"
Which gave Jazz646 the right to use the runway without any further direction from ATC.
If it was landing in Europe, there would need to be a clearance to land AFTER the other runway traffic had been looked after.
So in this scenario, Jazz would have been waiting for further clearances, and couldn't have landed legally. They would have had to 'remind' the tower that they were on short final and hadn't received clearance, yet.
Anthem00@reddit
not saying this is NOT a potential ATC staffing issue as we will know more when things come out. But we also have to consider that this could have been human error. The ATC ground (and tower) could have been on full rest - Im sure they'll claim they were "overworked" or working overtime (maybe by choice). But its not ALWAYS the system at fault.
Again, until we know more - it isnt always they are overworked, etc, etc, etc. Human error, lapse of judgement, and whatever else can certainly come in to play. Not saying we shouldn accept either - but we also need to have responsibility factored in.
srv340mike@reddit
Even if it was human error, the ability of human error to cause a catastrophic outcome like this is still a systematic failure.
Spaceman3157@reddit
My guy, the staffing issues cause human errors. That's why they're an issue. It's also such a long term issue at this point, that it hardly matters if this specific controller got a good night's sleep the night before or not. The long term fatigue from chronic under-staffing is just as much of an issue as the individual long shifts.
Wezpa@reddit
In safety critical applications a single failure should not result in a catastrophic outcome.
Anthem00@reddit
by that measure, there has to be two for everything - which will not be ANY airports that have ground/tower shared as one - until that gets resolved, might as well write all those airports off. . .
Wezpa@reddit
I don't have a solution. But there are two pilots in every commercial plane for that exact reason... There are more airplanes than control towers so I mean... Yeah.
I think an airport of that size should be able to afford it. Or increase the landingfee by 0,1 usd per pax.
There might be other barriers that could help as well. Technical systems, systematic change in procedures or equipment. Etc.
I'm just saying. It's human to make mistakes. Especially in stressful situations. A system should not be reliant on perfect performance all the time. Then the outcome will be catastrophic eventually.
Anthem00@reddit
no, there isnt. There is two in a 121 airline ops. There are tons of "commercial planes" flying single pilot.
I agree with you on the airport of that size /probably/ should be able to accommodate. But landing fees probably arent it. Though they could be, but thats going to get in to some real politics that neither side will give in is my guess. LGA has one of the highest landing fees of ANY airport in the USA. Its landing, gate access, etc is higher than even say neighboring JFK. I think someone told me that they charge by the hour there. . ANyhow, guess what - that fee, almost NONE of it goes to operating ATC. Its under the control of Port Authority and if you want to know how overbudget and under efficient the port authority is. . you can just start there. . . For how much tunnel tolls, NY/NJ transit - and the amount of riders that go through every single day - they still cant balance the books. . Live up there and you realize how bloated that organization is. . But guess what - none of the fees they collect goes to ATC - which is paid at the federal level. . and I doubt they would want to be Port Authority employes either. .. but who knows.
But even if there were multiple controllers there, on full rest - this can happen. We can all say that it cant, but as long as we rely on humans doing it. (and machines/AI can also fuck up) - then this is an unfortunate possibility.
cleared-direct@reddit
Compare part 121 safety record to part 91 and see if your point stands.
Anthem00@reddit
there was never an argument over part 91 vs 121 in terms of safety standards. Someone made a comment that "EVERY commercial plane" has two pilots - and I corrected said person that that just isnt the case. Now whether you think every commercial flight of any kind requires two pilots, thats a completely different discussion. Just that not every commercial plane at the moment - operates with two pilots. that includes 91K operations, 135's, jump planes, single pilot cargo ops, banner towing, whatever.
Inevitable_Mix_455@reddit
This guy SMSes
shaun3000@reddit
If a controller makes an error because he’s doing the job of three controllers is the primary cause human error or short staffing?
denizen_1@reddit
I mean, it's obviously human error when you clear a fire truck to cross in front of a plane that's about to land. The question is how the staffing issues contribute to the commission of the error. And it's pretty obvious they did since you have the same guy working ground and local control. And then there's nobody available to relieve him even after he directly causes multiple deaths and is instead left to clean up in what I'm sure was a miserable state.
petrrrrrd@reddit
This will be Obama fault somehow
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
You're not going to like the "let's do something" if we actually do it. Let me explain why.
We are already hiring as many ATC candidates as we can. You can't just hire somebody one day and have them work the overnight shift at LGA the next. It takes years of training and experience to get to that level. Right now the real only "something" we can do is to reduce the strain on the national airspace system. That means cutting flights, lots of flights. That is ultimately going to result in reduced flying which means hiring and movement is going to stop, maybe some furloughs. Be careful what you wish for.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Problem identified. They wanted to start a second academy and were told the government can't afford it. Too busy starting wars against the birth rate of an ideology.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Is the first one at full capacity right now? Honest question.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
My understanding is yes, it's been running at redline for more or less the last decade.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Gotcha, then yes it should be a priority. Sounds like a bottleneck.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
They also have a high washout rate. Only half or so of the people who show up ever see the inside of a facility, and they lose even more after that. So there's probably a screening issue too, and I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the Obama era change to hiring practices that temporarily made that even worse.
And once a controller gets to the line, great, they're working mandatory overtime in a job where you don't (reliably) get to choose your locale and you haven't seen a meaningful raise since like 2016. Not exactly great for recruiting numbers.
Sometimes it just takes money.
separation_of_powers@reddit
For those internationally, the best option is not to fly into the USA.
LukeFromEarth@reddit
Pilots don’t operate aircraft when they don’t have the resources they need. This should be the same for ATC. If you show up to work and the tower isn’t properly staffed, you don’t work. Or you adjust the flow of aircraft (workload) to manageable levels. The idea that we have ATC people showing up and pushing the envelope every day is counter to every safety practice we have in commercial aviation.
LowTimePilot@reddit
Reduce traffic.
It's the the only rational solution until we have the controllers in place to handle the traffic. Yes it'll suck, and as a guy on the 1500 grind it'll probably mean the end of my chances, but it's better than a new Tenerife every year.
fatmanyolo@reddit
That’s what everyone said to to in DCA last year (and well before that). Airports like DCA and LGA have 100lbs of shit stuffed into a 50lbs sack.
The reality is that, to the airline executives and lobbyists anyway, it’s worth the risk for the $$$.
illimitable1@reddit
This probably belongs over at ATC subreddit.
I heard that the pipeline just takes a long time to fill and that they have gone for some hiring in recent years. Is this true?
LoungeFlyZ@reddit
There’s no reason technology couldn’t have stopped yesterday’s accident. The fact ATC had to make a decision without technology telling them a conflict would arise shows how dated the systems are.
Drunkenaviator@reddit
The tech that could have helped already exists. Runway entrance lights, etc. It just wasn't installed. Because it's expensive and requires closing the runway to install.
Spaceman3157@reddit
How sure are you that it wasn't installed? I'm reading that LGA is one of the handful of airports with it?
cleared-direct@reddit
It probably did. There's a good chance that he made the "stop now" call because of ASDE or something. Technology isn't gonna fix overloaded and overworked humans in the loop.
LoungeFlyZ@reddit
Correct, but there could also be tech in the trucks that could have helped. Having better tools is never a bad thing. But I agree over worked controllers is also a problem.
Knifey_Hands@reddit
Let me retake the academy. I failed on my last sim test. Failed the 3rd out of 3. Increase age to 35 to apply
RubberStopper@reddit
Air travel in the US seems to exist as a pawn for terrible politicians (redundant, I know). Currently we have Dems nuking TSA out of spite and making everyone's lives worse for absolutely no reason while Reps shrug their shoulders at blatant ATC staffing problems to focus on Amtrak. It's like this system exists for politicians everywhere to make the lives of everyone worse.
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
the answer is: The FAA Learned, Congress didn't
healthycord@reddit
I wrote my rep and both senators this morning.
perfect_fifths@reddit
I heard the audio. On radar (or reconstruction of it) you can see there was a plane, and I think the controller confused the truck with the plane, telling the truck to stop when he meant the plane. You can even hear the collision system going off in the background. We don’t know the reasons for this yet. Wait for the full
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit (OP)
Brother, the plane was landing doing 100kt ground speed.
A 70000 pound airplane doesn’t stop on a dime.
perfect_fifths@reddit
The plane was stuck and couldn’t move. It wasn’t moving at the time of the collision.
“Jazz 646 and a vehicle in the hold position. I know he can't move," the air traffic controller said, referring to the Jazz Aviation jet that Air Canada Express
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit (OP)
You’re making the claim that the accident aircraft was sitting still at the time of collision?
perfect_fifths@reddit
No, I think the order of events was:
Air Canada gets cleared to land.
While landing, United has an emergency.
Fire truck responds and crosses runaway
Fire truck hits Air Canada
Then ATC tells both to hold
Airport gets shut down
InPlainSightSC2@reddit
Hey man. This sub is for people actually involved with aviation. Enthusiasts are better suited in /r/aviation
perfect_fifths@reddit
Um, I’m here because my child wants to get a ppl.
InPlainSightSC2@reddit
That’s great they want to become a pilot, happy to have them here once they’re able to use Reddit.
To be more blunt, please don’t comment on accidents since you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Two pilots are dead. A lot of people here are in the industry and know the people who are affected. You add nothing to the discussion and this is not the place for uniformed conjecture.
perfect_fifths@reddit
Cool. No one else really seems to know either. In fact, there have been times where people who do know things are were also wrong. That’s why I said wait for the full investigation.
InPlainSightSC2@reddit
There’s plenty of people who have commented discussing established facts. Then there’s you who thinks ADS-B is a recreation of radar. Put the shovel down, stop digging a hole for yourself.
If you have questions about your child getting their certificates, there is a great FAQ here. Please stop commenting on threads related to loss of life.
perfect_fifths@reddit
I don’t think ads b is a recreation of anything. Nor did I say that. You’re making that up
dovahbe4r@reddit
You’re mishearing it. It was “JZA646 I see you collided with a vehicle just hold position I know you can’t move”.
And you’re basing every comment around it.
perfect_fifths@reddit
I did not mishear it.
This is what happened
Air Canada gets cleared to land.
While landing, United has an emergency.
Fire truck responds and crosses runaway
Fire truck hits Air Canada
Then ATC tells both to hold
(The controller can then be heard calling the pilots on the Air Canada plane: "Jazz 646, Jazz 646, I see you collided with a vehicle there, just hold position, I know you can't move," they said. "Vehicles are responding to you now.")
Airport gets shut down
I really shouldn’t rely on my memory tbh especially after my stroke but the whole picture will be clearer once the faa investigates. And it’s very sad regardless.
Flightradar24 data shows the deceleration speed after landing was gradual until the collision, when it abruptly decreased, and the plane went off path.
(Flightradar24 data shows that the CRJ-900's last recorded ground speed was 21 kts, although its speed at the time of impact will almost certainly have been much higher)
ATC permitted the Air Canada Jazz jet to land on runway 4. The same controller permitted the fire truck to cross runway 4 1 or 2 seconds later. When he realized his error, he was frantically trying to stop the fire truck from crossing the runway.
InPlainSightSC2@reddit
That’s great they want to become a pilot, happy to have them here once they’re able to use Reddit.
To be more blunt, please don’t comment on accidents since you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Two pilots are dead. A lot of people here are in the industry and know the people who are affected. You add nothing to the discussion and this is not the place for uniformed conjecture.
Bunslow@reddit
Soapboxing within 24 hours of a crash is usually a bad way to go about safety improvements. Even OP says this entire thread is premised on speculation.
Peacewind152@reddit
As soon as this accident occurred (I learned about it near instantly through a post from a passenger on Bluesky) I could feel the ghosts of DCA.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
How about using tower freq instead of ground to give runway crossing clearance?
If the pilots had heard the truck crossing clearance, they may have realized what was happening and gone around.
Rightrudder74@reddit
When the controller keys the mic it goes to both frequencies
ThatLooksRight@reddit
Well, if that’s how the transmission went out, I stand corrected.
Rightrudder74@reddit
What they won’t hear is the readback on other frequency
squawkingVFR@reddit
Which, there are rumors they're gonna simulcast pilot transmissions on all frequencies a controller is using soon? Maybe? That'd would be so helpful. Nothing worse, I imagine, than being a controller and having someone contact you on another frequency while a pilot is reading back a reroute or something.
Matuteg@reddit
In Canada I did notice you can hear both frequencies (and responses) on one frequency when they merge them. (Noticed this when CLNC and GND were together at YYZ. Never heard that in the US. Is that something than can be done in the US?
natbornk@reddit
Interesting point. At my airport, when the same controller is running both frequencies, I hear all ATC transmissions, just not necessarily the responses.
VanDenBroeck@reddit
That's because although ATC is simulcasting, the aircraft don't. They are either one one or the other frequency. So you just hear the responses on the same frequency as you.
natbornk@reddit
I’m talking about simulcasting… and no, I don’t just hear pilot responses. Only ATC, depending
imlooking4agirl@reddit
I work at an airport, not at a Bravo or anything but a Charlie. We always call up tower to cross the runway or enter the RSA if we need to. Not sure why they didn’t do that there
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
They did. It's called simulcast. And that's what controllers do when they operate multiple frequencies.
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit (OP)
We know he was on the tower freq, as we hear a go around command right after the accident.
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
Again, this somewhat dates back to Reagan, but really dates back to the imposed white book contract by W Bush, which DESCIMATED ATC hiring. They have never caught back up
Rainebowraine123@reddit
I have contacted all of my federal representatives. All of us have to do the same. The union lobbying isn't enough. They need to hear our voices too.
-HippoMan-@reddit
Unfortunately, our government can't pass legislation outside of giant mega bills so a bill funding the FAA is likely alongside restricting voting rights. One side says you hate America because you don't want to fund TSA/ATC/ETC, and the other side wants single issue ballots passed. These sides flip with who's in charge.
Comfortable-Reveal75@reddit
Lowkey so true… I wish we could change fptp system here…
bhalter80@reddit
Kalshi has a bet right now on the number of bills trump signs this month, the options are 2 or 3. There is no 4,5,6,7,8,9,10. This is atrocious.
dash_trash@reddit
Who gives a fucking shit what Kalshi says?
bhalter80@reddit
Well people like to bet on things that hit so setting the bar that low probably reflects the actual throughput.
If the number was 10+ they'd be betting on that
dash_trash@reddit
Is this where we are now, people are letting prediction markets do their thinking for them? Did you really need to consult a betting site to determine that Congress is dysfunctional?
redditburner_5000@reddit
Raise the starting age limit and let me work in my metro area. I'll apply tomorrow.
Commercial-War1494@reddit
There aren’t enough of them. You eliminate a good portion your interested applicants with the 30 age limit. Then you have a high wash out rate at academy. There’s really no good answer to it. As a federal employee myself, having been through a few shut downs and now the uncertainty of our employment future, I tell people to stay away from
GeorgiaPilot172@reddit
Best we can do is more money to bomb middle eastern children, sorry
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit (OP)
Pls dont get this post locked
sprulz@reddit
There’s no way to keep this conversation non-political
dash_trash@reddit
How many ATC's could we attract, hire, train, and retain with the additional $200bil the Pentagon wants?
... Sigh
SupermarketNaive5974@reddit
Part of the issue is it isn’t, “Hire them and have them start now”. It takes typically 3-6 years for someone to get hired to start working a position. THAT is one of the biggest obstacles we as an industry face over the next few years, because the new guys won’t be ready for another couple of years
__joel_t@reddit
We supercharged hiring last year, didn't you hear?
ChestertonsFence1929@reddit
Thanks to a bill from earlier this year, billions of dollars are now being spent expanding the number of controllers and updating the systems. It takes some time for that to happen. More money is still needed.
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
First time?
JeffreyDollarz@reddit
Isn't the American gov in some.sort of shutdown, again, meaning federal employees aren't being paid?
Doesn't that mean ATC, TSA, and your other flight agents are not being paid?
Seems like it's an unpaid employee issue with the American gov, not necessarily a staffing issue with ATC.
You can't blame people for not working for free.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
ATC is funded. TSA is not.
JeffreyDollarz@reddit
Thank you. I learned something today.
Baystate411@reddit
You're not entirely correct
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit (OP)
They are still grossly understaffed.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
It’s insane that the FAA didnt learn anything from last years accident, and now we have two more airline pilots killed. Admittedly this is speculation, but i would be flabbergasted if the report doesn’t come out citing excessive controller workload as the probable cause.
Write your representatives.
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