Age-Gating Isn’t About Kids, It’s About Control
Posted by move_machine@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 252 comments
Posted by move_machine@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 252 comments
Szerepjatekos@reddit
No.
Bots got so wide spread that advertising companies cannot prove that the ads is watched by real people or just bots.
So now every company that earns from ads pushing for VERIFICATION of any kind that proves the ads are seen by real people.
That's it. If they fail to push this trough then the entire adsninduatry and all companies that rely on it will have to turn most of their content behind a paywall WITH real human verifications.
We will lose either way. Too much money on the line.
Apprehensive_Milk520@reddit
I just stumbled across this thread - have been vaguely annoyed by the whole age verification thing. Seemed like a bad joke. What I don't understand is this - why would any parent want their governments collecting data on their children? That's what it boils down to - and if I was parent to an under age child, I'd just enter my own info (should the verification require SSN, driver's license, green card, legally recognized form if ID) when setting up my child's computer. But of course, I'd find an open source distro that circumvents this absurd law. I don't want any government or deep state having my info either, of course, which is one of the main reasons I use GNU/Linux in the first place...
HengeWalk@reddit
I'm looking for recommendations for a discord alternative to avoid data tracking and sensitive ID being controlled by a company that could theoritically comply to fascist government demands in the future. Anyone have some suggestions? Preferably for casual chat and screensharing with long distance friends.
AssignmentRough5740@reddit
Can we quit this mentally ill identity politics bullshit in the FOSS community? Holy shit.
Rafaelkkkk@reddit
The entire community should oppose this and make as much noise as possible in situations like the potential case of the age verification field in systemd. One moment it's just a field to type your age, the next it's mandatory ID
whitepixe1@reddit
And after ID, face camera live for verification for the previous ones :D
Rafaelkkkk@reddit
Soon, 1984 will be all over the globe.
naufalap@reddit
I'm kinda burned out on tech, I guess I'll try to pick up other offline hobbies
BluMil0@reddit
Sometimes I wonder if the answer really is a hut in the woods.
wq1119@reddit
The Amish have been vindicated.
zandarthebarbarian@reddit
They use Sparky Linux
wq1119@reddit
How so? lol
zandarthebarbarian@reddit
That's what they use for their businesses and their taxes and stuff. I guess that's how they keep up with it. Or that's what I've always heard
wq1119@reddit
Wow that is very interesting!, I know that most "Conservative" Mennonites and Hutterites use offline-only OSs for their business and farm management, but I always assumed they either used old versions of Windows or Ubuntu, I will look up more info about this!
apricotseason1999@reddit
yeah i think it's time we step away from the computer and go crochet or something
Dramatic_Mastodon_93@reddit
That’ll show ‘em!
StreetCream6695@reddit
Im with you. It’s becoming absurd.
Warstorm1993@reddit
I'm pretty sure the nukes will start flying before it get to that point.
corvus_cornix@reddit
Drink another verification can
dbear496@reddit
I see social credit score on the horizon.
No_Piccolo8361@reddit
We should, but it won't happen on Reddit. Mods arr suppressing posts about this
ArdiMaster@reddit
Just about every single post from this sub that made it to my front page has been about this.
FifteenthPen@reddit
The mods are doing a pretty fucking poor job of suppressing posts about this, considering that I've been seeing them multiple times a day since this shit show started
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
This is the kind of slippery slope argument the EFF consciously avoids because it makes you look like an insane man-child.
pdoherty926@reddit
It's complete insanity that this string of words could some day manifest as reality.
CallMeRudiger@reddit
Yes, make noise. Make sure it's accurate noise, implying they're part of a conspiracy does not typically make developers more responsive to your concerns.
The systemd addition isn't an age verification field, it's a birth date field. Theoretical age verification software may use it, but since it's not a verified birth date, probably not unless local regulations only require the equivalent of clicking "I'm over 18" on a porn site.
You are always the one in control of what value that field stores (if any) and what software you install on your own computer.
WorBlux@reddit
Is now in my auto-start files.
SangersSequence@reddit
It is critical that people switch to distros that do not use SystemD, and won't support their unforced age verification capitulation.
PoisonousVibes@reddit
I simply dont understand why we stopped doing internet safety campaigns. Children should NEVER have unsupervised access to the internet BECAUSE it has stuff on it innapropriate for kids. But at the same time, unrestricted access to infinite information is exactly what makes the internet so great for those who are of age to use it responsibly.
jar36@reddit
"It mandates that websites hosting speech that is protected by the First Amendment for both adults and young people"
In the decision to allow TX to keep its ID gate on porn, Clarence Thomas wrote for the majority opinion, basically that it can stand only because an adult would be expected to show ID to buy porn in the real world.
We need less talk of compliance and more talk of defiance and standing up for freedom. The "F" in FOSS demands that we do or it dies with us
I don't know this law yet, but the ones I've seen mandate that we all have online accounts to hold our ages so the Operating System Provider can send the signal to app stores and the account follows the user across platforms.
That can only be accomplished by forcing online accounts in a centralized database
As someone else wrote in (I think) the Debian dev email chain, there are countless other laws in other nations that we are soundly ignoring. I'd add to that, we are ignoring them because the people deserve to be free. They deserve to have access to FOSS as a human right.
zgillet@reddit
U.S. is on the verge of another revolution. It's bad man.
fellipec@reddit
Yes. And the water make things wet.
MBILC@reddit
For us it may be obvious, but plenty of people out there rush to say yes to this because "think of the children" and they think their own governments truly do care about them as an individual.
Leeeerooooy_Jenkins@reddit
Let us be completely clear on this. Politicians DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN'S ONLINE SAFETY. ROBLOX is the biggest child predator site in the world yet not a single politician has called to have it shutdown.
This is about power and control over those without any. In the end "You'll own nothing and you'll like it" including your privacy and personal identity.
hblok@reddit
The Epstein files were really a blessing in disguise.
The easiest retort to the government and politicians having children's best interest in mind is now: Yes, but of course, the Epstein class cares a whole lot about the children!
MBILC@reddit
Right...
If they cared so much about the children, why is it only other countries who are arresting and going after those involved, while the U.S deflects and tries to hide...
ContextLengthMatters@reddit
I'm going to throw some nuance in here even though people will likely not agree with me.
Regulation at some level is important to people because most of their world isn't just some free living libertarian who believes that every societal problem with the little ones can be solved alone.
Take phones for example. When I send my kid to school, it doesn't matter what restrictions I put on her, there will be peers there who have a wide range of privileges. This makes it extremely difficult to self regulate when you are actively alienating your child from their own peers.
The problem gets worse the lower you go in the SES groups. Those who have money end up shopping around in communities looking for the one that fits their ideals best. They join school boards and they make pacts with their fellow parents to adopt later.
Homeschooling isn't always an option, and even when it is, your resources and connections to a community are what make it work.
Suffice to say, our problem with an unregulated internet is in fact another way to deepen the divide in social classes. The haves and have nots have much different outcomes with their kids when it comes to this debate.
slade51@reddit
They do care - they care about keeping them controlled.
It starts with: “What are you worried about of you have nothing to hide?”
Regardedginger@reddit
But putting a camera in their bedroom or shower is too far 😤
MBILC@reddit
Exactly, and sadly people i know think that as well "I have nothing to hide, they can see what I do, I do not care", just wait....
ReferenceOutside98@reddit
gasoline and a low-percentage solution of hydrochloric acid can also wet your things
VenusianBug@reddit
But so many people don't see this so the more it can be said, the better imo.
Internet-of-cruft@reddit
The water makes things wet.
Blitzbahn@reddit
Water makes things wet.
Prospy006@reddit
Water makes things wet.
fellipec@reddit
True!
breakerfall@reddit
Must be the water.
SuprCookie@reddit
Let's add that to the man pages.
SignificantEnding221@reddit
is it wet tho?
Comprehensive_Ad7152@reddit
every single time like clock work.
Technologica-X@reddit
the end goal is also force people to pay taxes,registration and insurance on all devices. each install will need verified with your reg info and proof of insurance.
Imagine if everyone had to $100 per device to register it and active the OS. The tax revenue makes them foam at the mouth along with stripping you of all privacy.
PlainBread@reddit
Religion has always been in a race to enter the soft skulls of children before education can come into play.
This is just more of the same.
QuickSilver010@reddit
All I'm seeing is "my world view is better to indoctrinate with than your worldview"
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
You don't understand the word "indoctrination".
QuickSilver010@reddit
It is the process of instilling a worldview. Am I wrong?
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
Indoctrination specifically is a focus on eliminating critical thought. This is why the word is used so often when referring to religion, especially in cases like fundamentalist Christianity/Islam or cults like Mormonism. They employ heavy amounts of thought termination.
QuickSilver010@reddit
Nothing does this more than the scientific method. Fundamentally rejects anything outside the observable universe.
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
Because we can't observe it lol. If you can't observe it, it's not scientifically knowable. I'm not even an atheist.
QuickSilver010@reddit
They reject the very idea of a power outside the universe.
Precisely the issue. Science cannot prove anything metaphysical.
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
> They reject the very idea of a power outside the universe.
Do you really think that there aren't religious scientists?
> Precisely the issue. Science cannot prove anything metaphysical.
And it also cannot disprove it either, which is why science does not address it. What the fuck is your point here?
QuickSilver010@reddit
I'm not talking about the people. I'm talking about the source of information itself.
Exactly. It can't.
It's indoctrination to instil thought terminating ideas like atheism.
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
"The existence of God cannot be scientifically proven" is NOT the same thing as "God doesn't exist".
QuickSilver010@reddit
I never stated as such
Bro this whole argument spawned from you challenging my argument on what indoctrination is. Instilling any worldview regardless of the contents of that world view is all the same. They all have their own reasons for being world views people believe in.
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
ok
gearstars@reddit
Which one at you referring to?
QuickSilver010@reddit
Either one.
gearstars@reddit
What are the options
QuickSilver010@reddit
Whichever ones op is arguing for and against
gearstars@reddit
Weird non answer, but you do you I guess
QuickSilver010@reddit
It's not a non answer. The worldview in question doesn't matter for the discussion. Just that there is opposing ones.
PlainBread@reddit
Employing false equivalence doesn't elevate you above the available options.
QuickSilver010@reddit
Not really false equivalence. You'd have to objectively prove that both world views aren't of equal standing. You can say one is factual, another is not, but the ones on the other side would make the opposite claim without hesitation.
PlainBread@reddit
Yes the problem with religion and reason is that it very much is a "two guards; one always lies and one always tells the truth" puzzle. If you don't have the faculty to determine truth from fiction, then you will simply rely on loyalty and faith, inevitably serving the liar.
QuickSilver010@reddit
Who said religious people don't have the faculty to determine truth about their religion? Only the other side believe this.
QuickSilver010@reddit
The underlying fundamentals of wanting to have the final say on what's the truth? I guess blocking me is one way to achieve that
QuickSilver010@reddit
A good faith argument is one that only shares your opinion?
reason and religion are as compatible as it gets. but of you wouldnt understand that since you arent religous. as i said, your indoctrination or theirs.
instead of seeking the truth? see youve already decided religion is a lie
PlainBread@reddit
Brother, you've been yelling your pro-religious position from your position of false enlightened centrism. I've discussed the underlying fundaments and you don't care. Our conversation is done.
lurkervidyaenjoyer@reddit
This back and forth is exactly why it was a bad decision to open with this image and frame the article in the way that they did. Age verification of websites and now operating systems has been pushed by both sides of the political spectrum, with places like Texas and Florida requiring age verification schemes on the internet, and places like California and Illinois pushing for OS-level verification. If anything, this should be a unifying moment. However, the EFF seemingly can't help themselves but to piss on the third rail by directly connecting it to support for far more contentious and divisive political movements, and this is far from the first time they've done it.
The messaging should focus on what everyone stands to lose here, and why these laws are a bad idea regardless of who you are and what views you hold. I'll put it like this: I wouldn't want to try and spread this message by highlighting the benefit to anti-migrant activists in the U.K. to be able to organize more effectively, or for Germans to support the AFD party at a time when the government has designated them as an extremist group, heightening surveillance on them and potentially moving towards making its existence and any support for it illegal.
I might care about that, but I know that a lot of people would look at that and think "oh so that's why they want internet freedom?" and start to question support for it. Yes, a free, open, and unrestricted internet does mean that all sorts of controversial movements will be empowered. Some you may support, some you may oppose, but you don't lead with that.
PlainBread@reddit
The leftists who are interested in it are not interested in pushing religion; They just want to suppress anti-Zionist sentiment from entering the mainstream.
But unfortunately for them, they are closing the barn doors after the horses have all run out.
Leafwick@reddit
You know I'm with you on this one. I know atheistic parents who've raised spoiled uncritical Ipad children, and I know Christians who've raised Sharp and outspoken children. Religion is a core part of our culture and to blindly call it indoctrination is really disingenuous to how every child is indoctrinated by something.
Bunerd@reddit
It's never a question of whether a 25 year old is mentally developed enough to really understand the epistemology behind a singular ephemeral omnipotent being. Such things are easily understood as the truth *a priori*, but sex, sexuality, gender and puberty, things kids are already engaging with materially must be suppressed.
setibeings@reddit
I don't think they're saying out loud that the plan is to limit what content adults can access, at least not yet. Typo?
Nelrene@reddit
They don't need to say it out loud. It's pretty obvious if you think about what will happen when you let far right wingers control of your computer.
eleete@reddit
Those pesky right wingers in CO, CA and WA, /s
Nelrene@reddit
The Dems are at best right wing leaning centrists.
Bunerd@reddit
These are talking points I hear about trans people a lot and a lot of drive behind this censorship is because religious groups know they need to create a high control environment to prevent their kids from asking questions or deviating from a belief set shaken by experiences with reality.
shit-trapper@reddit
Define things broadly enough, and you can dissappear entire groups of people from public forums. Also a priori. if latin is seen as something that counts for anything.
Lonsdale1086@reddit
/r/iamverysmart
Bunerd@reddit
Do you have a question?
miscdebris1123@reddit
Can we megathread these? They are never about solutions, just complaining about the problem.
duxking45@reddit
Well done Sherlock. And the patriot act also wasnt about patriotism. We'll spotted.
MotanulScotishFold@reddit
Give me a good reason why is needed age checking for any OS?
There's none, it's a straightforward lie and pretext.
What's next? age checking for going outside?
dank_shit_poster69@reddit
Zucc wants to gather more device data and avoid responsibility at app level https://github.com/upper-up/meta-lobbying-and-other-findings
XRT28@reddit
In theory it centralizes age verification and creates a more streamlined way of doing age checks rather than every single app and website having a different system you have to give your information to prove your identity to access and all with varying degrees of security and exploitation on that data they've collected on you.
Personally if age verification is going to be the default everywhere going forward, which is certainly the way it seems to be headed, I'd MUCH prefer a system like California is proposing at the OS level. It doesn't require facial scans or uploading real ID etc and simply requires self attestation as to your age. Furthermore it preempts any attempts by apps or websites to try and use those privacy invading methods like facial scans or ID uploads to harvest data on you by requiring them to respect the OS flag.
A system like this stymies any "bUt ThE cHilDren" arguments while also preserving basically all the privacy on the internet that people already have(which honestly isn't as much as people think it is anyway).
Next??? There have been plenty of, validly, age gated activities outside for quite a long time already.
rocket_dragon@reddit
My sweet, innoocent, helpless little summer child, websites used to be all self-attest too. What will you do when the legal goalposts shift to require - now at the OS level - a face scan, ID, and birth certificate?
XRT28@reddit
Firstly self attestation at a website level was originally implemented as a "cover your ass" by the websites.
It was never actually a viable means of limiting children from potentially problematic content once we transitioned from the family desktop in the living room to everyone having a computer in their pocket since parents simply can't be around all the time when kids are on the internet anymore.
OS age gating meanwhile doesn't have the same issue as it only requires parents to be around for the initial setup.
And you want to take about naivety? You think this is just coming because of laws, IT'S NOT.
Is there currently a worldwide requirement for age verification? lol no. So why then did Discord just try to implement GLOBAL age verification checks?
Because it gives them the opportunity to harvest more data on users and more data means more money. Which coincidentally is also one of the main reasons, along with the aforementioned issue, why self attestation on websites and apps is disappearing.
Age verification is coming even if zero new laws require it. When it comes I'd much rather a forward thinking privacy focused approach like self attested OS flags than an invasive one where every single company is collecting my facial scan and ID to exploit it.
And IF at some point the requirement changes from self attesting to stringent ID checks THAT is what I'll fight instead of tilting at windmills now.
rocket_dragon@reddit
Jsyk, live usb's give you a working desktop with Internet connectivity and a browser without any setup or new account. And I installed my first version of Linux unsupervised before I was 18. You have more holes in you than Swiss cheese.
No it's not, use your head.
Yes, discord did it for money. Yes, discord backtracked because this kind of escalation of privacy invasion is suicide in the free market. Everyone will simply move to less invasive apps. It MUST be approached legally, it will never happen in the free market.
Claiming that collecting and giving away personal information is "privacy focused" is a red hot take.
"I'll accept the trojan house inside and if that trojan house is full of enemies, that's when I'll start fighting it".
Thank God we aren't relying on you.
XRT28@reddit
Which can be prevented via bios changes.
Discord is doing what every company does when implementing something incredibly unpopular, they TEMPORARILY backtracked. And like every company in the same situation once the heat dies down will rebrand the same shit and push it out again, likely to smaller groups at a time to prevent widespread backlash.
You do know what self attested means yes? You can say you were born in 1901 and give ZERO personal information out if you want.
Not a trojan horse because unless a bill gives broad sweeping, and intentionally vague, powers it cannot simply be changed on a whim after it is passed to morph from one thing to another. It would require a whole nother bill to pass to make changes.
rocket_dragon@reddit
The only people who would be changing their bios are the parents who are already responsible enough to not need the government to do their job for them.
Then don't use Discord and use a superior alternative like Stoat. You don't have to compromise your freedom of choice.
Interesting, so you admit that the age verification is useless at age verification.
Use your brain. Activate that grey matter. What is the intent here? Maybe some pattern recognition lights up?
Brother this is not the trojan horse, this is when the keep is fully compromised, and Linux users are locked in the dungeon below. Don't expect any solidarity in your "fight" with the shackles when you were the one fedposting about the horse looking fine to you.
XRT28@reddit
Do you think changing a couple bios setting ONCE is a monumental task or something? I don't get it.
A. Ah yes the age old "free market" idea where bad ideas will flounder and the best will magically rise to the top. So what exactly is the free market alternative for lets say Youtube? Oh right there isn't one. Not to mention for any service with a strong social component, whether that's Youtube or Discord or Twitter, it's not simply about what is "best" but about what is most widely adopted. No matter how good something like that is if it's got no userbase it's not a viable alternative. B. lol you think it's going to end at Discord? That's funny. That's like thinking when a company raises their price their main competitor isn't going to do the same.
What part about the parents doing the setup for their kids and providing an accurate(or atleast semi-accurate if they want the benefits of the "child lock" without giving exact info for privacy reasons) age is confusing you?
And it's ok to simply say you don't know the process in how laws are made bro, lots of people don't.
rocket_dragon@reddit
For the vast majority of computer users, yes absolutely.
I don't use YouTube, because it sucks. Look at that, I have ✨choice✨.
Maybe you have no individual thought outside of the hive mind, don't put that on other people. Maybe you need to be told what to do and lead on what to use. Don't make that our problem.
That's fine, make it an optional feature.
What part of "legally enforced without your consent by the government" do you not understand?
Honestly you just sound like a lib who thinks all laws are good and in good faith, and put way too much trust in the government to run your life for you.
MotanulScotishFold@reddit
We sterilize the world so much making not fun, aren't we?
We used to go outside unsupervised and it was fun. Nowadays everything is monitored, sterilized and too much rules and restriction making not fun anymore.
XRT28@reddit
Some restrictions are stupid and overreaching yes. But there are plenty of restrictions that are for the better of both an individual and also society at large. Some guardrails aren't necessarily a bad thing.
UltraCynar@reddit
That's what they'd love I'm sure. If you're not at work or home why are you out? Papers please.
Sinaaaa@reddit
That sounds like Hungarian socialism in the 70s/80s, like for real that happened all the time.
UltraCynar@reddit
Scary times
Mccobsta@reddit
And profit, Facebook has a lot in this
dank_shit_poster69@reddit
Facebook created the lobbying movement for this and continues to drive it https://github.com/upper-up/meta-lobbying-and-other-findings
DialecticCompilerXP@reddit
Their focus on LGBTQ concerns is valid, but also missing the forest for the trees.
This is an obvious threat response to the fact that American hegemony is no longer uncontested. When analyzing the history of surveillance states such as the the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the People's Republic or China or the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, there is a common tendency to evaluate them in a vacuum, and to attribute this quality to a product of ideology or simply the paranoia of their strongman, but this simply isn't the case. The social model of these states was dictated by their circumstances, in all cases characterized by having been under consistent external pressure from an enemy that was seeking to destroy them; dictatorship follows from crisis, not the other way around.
What we are seeing is the early stages of the western powers reacting to three interelated facts:
Capitalism has been in an ongoing state of crisis since the 1970s, when stagflation hit, which far from being a freak occurence was a predictable outcome of the post-war boom having come to an end now that the United States was no longer the only industrialized country that hadn't been utterly devastated by WW2. This was "solved" through neoliberalism, which paliated the declining rate of profit through a combination of deregulation, outsourcing and plundering of public services through privatization. This created the appearance of a strong economy by producing a flow of inexpensive goods. After all, how bad could things be? Look at how cheap TVs are! But the real story remained readily apparent in the goods possessed of a constant demand and inflexible supply, such as education, healthcare and housing.
But this could not be continued forever; one must eventually pay the piper. Deregulation resulted in the worst financial crisis since the great depression, outsourcing ultimately amounted to selling China the rope and as for privatization, well the problem with capitalism is that you eventually run out of the public's money. As such capitalism is returning to its historic norm, and the Liberal states begin the transition to their form in crisis: fascism.
Wheatleytron@reddit
Yes, we already know It's also apparently about making rich companies even richer.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
Not just Meta. The EU digital ID is a way to force everyone to have Android or iOS.
Wheatleytron@reddit
Motorola is looking to disrupt that market control, it seems.
TherealBlueSniper@reddit
Wasn't it Facebook that was behind all this shit?
VA0@reddit
^correct me if i'm wrong but the significance here is a lawmaker saying it against the proposal. Yes we all know this , but I have seen a lack of legislatures saying anything about it.
0tanod@reddit
To be fair a bunch of superPACs were created overnight and handed out bribes to get these laws through with as little debate as possible, so its not like they had time.
Sure would be nice to see our democracy respond to any of our problems as fast as they did with this nonsense.
PerfectEnthusiasm2@reddit
lol 'democracy'. I remember when we pretended to have that.
starswtt@reddit
In America at least, sure but this is a global issue. Everywhere else has their bribery is forms that aren't superpacs because superpacs were a unique response to the American legal system which banned some times of bribery and were pretty good at enforcing them. Sometimes its through other workarounds, sometimes its through actual bribery
Though I call superpacs bribery, in a way they're kinda worse. At least in the west where real bribery isn't as insitutional. Bribes still need to convince you, money is just to help convince you to ignore your morals. Superpacs simply fund the campaigns they like. That funding drowns out the campaigns they don't fund. So they get the crazy psycopaths that actually agree with them into office, and usually they genuinely agree with the superpac's goals. Or if you're "lucky", just a politician who follows the superpacs they least disagree with or think will give them the best chance of winning, in which case yeah its just a legal bribe that technically isn't. And unlike a quite, behind the scene bribe, superpacs flood the media landscape and shape public perception as to what is and isn't normal
RampantAndroid@reddit
Real reform needs to happen with regards to stopping money being used like this. Allowing super pacs to exist is about the worst thing to ever happen to politics.
glity@reddit
They won’t the ruling caste bought the political caste almost everywhere in the world now.
cluberti@reddit
It’s about Meta having no legal responsibilities for not trying hard enough to keep kids off of the platform they target to kids.
AX11Liveact@reddit
This. Moving liability from the platform to the user.
PercussionGuy33@reddit
I think this goes beyond just money. It's about absolutely complete surveillance state of government. Government wants total control over what you do, see, say and access.
pcreed@reddit
Maybe us linux users know but the vast majority and especially reddit does not. They still fall for the ol smokescreens and propaganda.
h0neyp0t_sec@reddit
4 letters : M E T A
EarEquivalent3929@reddit
It's being pushed by Meta and Palantir. That's all you really need to know.
Systemerror7A69@reddit
I gotta say, this is an interesting article.
As a European I haven't followed this TOO closely, partly because I have faith in the open source community, partly because the laws themselves probably won't affect me directly.
And while I still don't think the SystemD "controversy" in anything but overblown I see the point of the issue much more clearly.
I was against age verification before as well but this has more directly highlighted problems for me (instead of being a more nebulous "I don't think I like this" I had before )
And coming from the EFF is also a very reputable source.
Thanks for posting this.
Makefile_dot_in@reddit
Don't worry, our representatives in Brussels are working hard at bridging the gap.
swarmOfBis@reddit
I mean... Our version is not even half as bad as the others. It's honestly technically sound (even though it definitely can be better).
And for the record on principle I am against any form of age verification, but it doesn't mean that it can't be done right.
xternal7@reddit
Oh no, EU version is worse than california/colorado.
By California/Colorado law, operating system must give you a field to enter your birthdate. It starts and ends there. You don't need to tell the truth. You don't need to scan your ID. These two laws are the closest you can get to theoretically perfect system, where theoretically perfect system looks like this:
Basically: you give parents the tools, but at the end of the day the final choice is still up to the user.
European version of this is "scan your ID with this app that we made, and that only runs on iOS and Android devices with locked bootloaders that aren't rooted. We pinky-promise that we'll only tell websites if you're over 18, and we pinky-promise that we'll respect your privacy by not tying your online accounts with your real-world identity."
swarmOfBis@reddit
No, CA/CO laws are just wedges upon which they will expand.
There's no pinky promise, everything is legally obligated to be open source.
xternal7@reddit
And CA/CO laws demand that you only need to enter your DoB into your OS, and do require you to actually verify your age.
European approach does, which automatically makes it significantly worse.
Then it also requires you to have a smartphone that runs iOS or android without root (in other words: it requires you to buy a phone you don't fully own in order to access the internet "freely") , which makes it even more significantly worse than CA/CO laws, where your device is the authoritative source of your age.
This is not true, that's your speculation. If your argument is that Colorado and California laws could change, guess what:
If CO/CA laws can change ... so can European ones. Trying to imply that European laws won't change while CO/CA laws will — like you're doing — is just intellectual dishonesty of the highest degree.
AcridWings_11465@reddit
The bar to change EU law is so much higher that it's not even worth considering in the same sentence as changing US state laws. At least 55% of EU countries with at least 65% of the EU's population need to approve it in the council (abstention = rejection). The European parliament must also assent to it, plus every parliament in every member state (if the law is not a simple regulation).
That is one reference implementation. The courts still have the last word on such things, and this will be litigated in every member state all the way to the CJEU if necessary. Another thing to consider is that the human rights protections in the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and the ECHR are much broader and stronger than any equivalent the US has.
Aware_Rough_9170@reddit
Oh ya there’s plenty of things that COULD be done right, but, at least in the U.S if there’s even 3 dimes to be made on it it’s going to be absolutely designed poorly and make our politicians and billionaires richer.
Europe is pretty diverse so can’t make that claim across the board, but considering the timing of the conversation and the fact a lot of large infrastructure is/was founded in the U.S you’d still likely wind up fucked unless backup options started getting moved forward in Europe, like, yesterday.
swarmOfBis@reddit
When it come to EU the biggest advantage is we saw what fast iteration on law can do and designed our system in a way that has a lot of guard rails, this causes adoption to be much slower, but also makes malicious legislation much harder to pass (see chat control, which has been just repelled and different versions of similar regulation that has been floating around since at least 2015). But this does not mean we're immune to lobbying, in fact lobbies use the very same mechanism to cripple any legislation they dislike.
Anyways when it comes to our solution to identification online we have already defined a framework called eIDAS 2.0. It was mainly aimed at providers that already require your ID, like banks, to force them to allow also digital IDs, but it also provides attribute based login allowing to verify i.e. that your over 18 or that you're a licensed driver. eIDAS provides multiple proofs, and does not mandate any single one, among those proofs there is a zero knowledge proof that could be used, but unfortunately currently it seems that OIDC4VC and OIDC4VP are the leading implementations, and those can be tracked, as they don't assert unlinkability, only that the wallet will never disclose more than the client requests.
Also important issue is architecture, Europe has no hyperscalers, we have some cloud providers but none of them can compete with AWS/Azure/GCP, and even our governments are ready to trust American companies with sensitive data (i.e. in Poland we've recently introduced a digitalized invoices, which is hosted almost exclusively on AWS). We're already late to the race and we're still failing to do anything about it.
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
This is going to effect you, you're not immune to things America does. You're part of the same political order.
Systemerror7A69@reddit
Which is why I specified "directly". I'm fully aware this can't be looked at in isolation - but also, I DO have faith in the open source community.
trekkeralmi@reddit
don't have kids myself, but is it simply impossible to just change the wifi password if you don't want your kids on the internet? must every child have a smart phone?
Traditional_Sand9921@reddit
It is extremly hard to talk about the topic. You need to not talk the " prteoct the children argument" but point how itw as used something similiar to napalm to deal with a problem that already had the mechanism to solve it. Then most people will become lazy " why anothe solution when this is enough "
valerielynx@reddit
Basically: they made so many AI slop fake users that now they need ID verification to see who's real and to advertise to them instead of emptily advertising to fake users
Musicinme69@reddit
Screw the globalist agenda. Screw the elites. Screw Microsoft.
buppiejc@reddit
We have had some very high profile news stories of people hurting children, and I’m not just talking about presidents. Religious institutions, other political, and/or powerful people. I don’t have the answers, the age-verification legislation could be misplaced, but something needs to be done; no child deserves to be harmed, and they are ACTIVELY being harmed. If you don’t care about that, then I dunno, you may need to really re-evaluate the person you’ve become because we as humans have a genetic disposition to care for children.
Har1equ1nBob@reddit
You are missing the point on purpose, or incapable of reason. Please think about what you are saying.
djao@reddit
If we really wanted to protect children, making all social media illegal would be much more beneficial than any of this age verification idiocy.
teressapanic@reddit
All I want to say is they don’t really care about us
Substantial-Sky4079@reddit
No they do bc you help bring them the money lol
FTFreddyYT@reddit
Tell me what has become of my life...
ragin2cajun@reddit
It's Meta everyone. It's been Meta for a long time.
What to know who was funding the Morality police groups of 2023 to allow parents to sue porn companies if their kids saw something?
Want to know who was funding the social media and app store age verification?
Why?
Because Meta is subject to $50 billion in COPPA fines because they knew kids were using their platform and didn't care.
So now they want to shift the burden of age verification so they can get rid of that liability or reduce it significantly and are willing to hire Joker style agents of chaos Christian nationalists to get a govt ID database instead of a auth0 style of age verification like European countries are implementing.
FUCK META!
SutekhThrowingSuckIt@reddit
https://github.com/upper-up/meta-lobbying-and-other-findings
Harryisamazing@reddit
It's the guise to usher in digital ID
NightOfTheLivingHam@reddit
That and facebook getting out of being liable for content
inn0cent-bystander@reddit
no shit
AX11Liveact@reddit
-1 for age-bait.
Jack1101111@reddit
https://itsfoss.com/news/systemd-age-verification/
Financial_Owl2289@reddit
the trans flag is hilarious since the age verification laws are OVERWHELMINGLY being pushed by far left states in the US and european countries. (and brazil. seems to be an outlier?)
FafnerTheBear@reddit
No shit.
AL_25@reddit
Woah, that eye opening man /s
zipklik@reddit
RESIST
Radium@reddit
The deeper the government integrates in the OS level the stronger their control is. It's simple.
red286@reddit
Even if it were about kids, it would be entirely irrelevant.
We haven't had it until now, yet there have been two generations raised with easy internet access, and they seem to have turned out fine.
Kids seeing something not age appropriate doesn't actually fuck them up for life.
Creating a school-to-private-prison pipeline on the other hand...
TomuGuy@reddit
"Protecting kids" rings hollow when the pedophiles run the world
TiredOfBeingTired28@reddit
Age gating is about even more data on everything for meta and the lot to sale, and use.
Lava-Jacket@reddit
It's the excuse they've been waiting for forever
KratosLegacy@reddit
It's moral panic and lack of parental accountability (mostly due to exhaustion from wage slavery) co-opted by big tech. Who would've figured? Wealthy capitalists benefiting off of moral panic. Not like that's never happened before 🙃
S7relok@reddit
> It's moral panic and lack of parental accountability (mostly due to exhaustion from wage slavery
Lots of parents are succeding to correctly raise their kids. These age control laws are for the lazies who should have a lifetime subscription to regular condom deliveries
KratosLegacy@reddit
I mean, in a lot of cases I don't disagree 😅
28874559260134F@reddit
The obvious test, of course, being that if they really cared about (all) children, you would have noticed already: Healthcare, education, housing, opportunities, mental states, plus strange incentives to join the armed forces would all look very different from what they are now.
The "kids" argument always is, and will be, the one to reach the masses, who only consume the headlines, since for the rest of the day, they are trying to make a living or recover from their exploitation.
strolls@reddit
The things you suggest all cost money.
Age-gating porn websites costs the government nothing.
dogman_35@reddit
That's not exactly a fucking slam dunk argument lol
strolls@reddit
I'm not making an argument. I'm just pointed out a flaw in the emotive comment I replied to..
28874559260134F@reddit
Right you are: We are in the age of guard labour. Before that, civil unrest tendencies were controlled by actually offering the plebs some benefits. Now they are being herded, observed, controlled. This telegraphs the next moves. None of which aiming to improve things for ordinary people.
apricotseason1999@reddit
what do you mean? of course spending millions to fund age verification laws is a much better use of our money than funding education and healthcare institutions....
windowinstallment@reddit
Literally it would probably help kids more if they took the money for age verification and gave the money to random kids.
No-Channel3917@reddit
EU nations have that and also passing these laws...so...I mean ..
kansetsupanikku@reddit
Laughing in availability of public healthcare child psychiatrists
slade51@reddit
It worked well for Tipper Gore and her explicit labels on music.
santasbong@reddit
Its always been a VERY effective tactic.
All you have to do is get a few moms to screech “but what about the chiiiiiiildrennnnnn?” And you can ban basically anything you want.
PraetorRU@reddit
Let's notice the elefant in the room: most of linux development happens in USA corpos. Not only kernel, but most software that form a distro is ether directly developed or funded by them.
So, it looks like they will integrate whatever USA government gonna tell them to, no matter what you want.
GrandmasMilkMissiles@reddit
Point stands, but slightly backwards - the US government will implement whatever the data hoarding tech corpos bribe them to do.
PraetorRU@reddit
It's not only bribing.
Just recall the media campaign against Kaspersky that dared to find NSA hacking tool. And they banned them for this in USA and recommended to do the same in any NATO country.
Then recent xz infiltration. It's pretty much clear that it was some government behind it, and since this story pretty much immediately died in Western media, it's safe to assume, that it was USA and/or Israel behind it. And we were lucky to find it, but maybe we were not so lucky with some other cornerstone project.
And now they just encourage everyone to send their code and documents and pretty much everything to them through AI tools, and intend to implement ID tracking on OS level.
Systemd is developed by RedHat and owned by IBM. No surprise, that they'll implement whatever USA government wants and it'll affect every modern linux distro.
6e1a08c8047143c6869@reddit
No? Why would you think that?
smallcrampcamp@reddit
elefant
Blu-Blue-Blues@reddit
This should be brought up more on mainstream platforms. Many people will still look at you like you're criminal or you're paranoid. Because, they don't know what is going on.
Deep_Traffic_7873@reddit
why they talk about sexual disorders instead of privacy rights?
erraticnods@reddit
regardless of what you think about "sexual disorders", yesterday's normalcy turns into tomorrow's unacceptability, and next week's grounds for arrest. being alert about state control is important for everyone
Deep_Traffic_7873@reddit
Sure this is why "gender flags" should be avoided to be more inclusive
2ManyAccounts2Count@reddit
Glad someone said it. I'll share some downvotes.
SannusFatAlt@reddit
literally everything that person said has zipped a thousand miles above your head and it's a bit second hand embarrassing :/
Majestic_Ocelot_793@reddit
apples to oranges
GrandmasMilkMissiles@reddit
It's pandering. Normies are much more likely to care about sexual identity than they are to care about privacy and freedom. If you claim this is meant to oppress then gender folks, they might actually care. If normals cared about privacy, most social media would have died already.
Nelrene@reddit
Yes, because only "normies" care this. It not like LGBT+ people use computers and the internet or anything like that.
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NoJunket6950@reddit
Because it's a two fold issue. It's about controlling queer people just as much as it is about violating your privacy.
Cakeking7878@reddit
Just like how we have seen bans on profanity or other restrictions on free speech then turn to define queerness as profanity.
We must understand the privacy argument but also the other intersecting issues in how these become tools of oppression in ways you might not realize. This is a practice of intersectionality and basic human empathy
Effective_Scheme2158@reddit
By this POV I’ll be taking a liking to these laws
Cakeking7878@reddit
Do you not know of the poem written in nazi Germany? "first they came for the communists"? Even if you don't understand I only ask for solidarity because only together can we fight to protect privacy
Deep_Traffic_7873@reddit
privacy is for everybody not just some categories
particlemanwavegirl@reddit
"All lives matter" ahh comment
Corporeal_Weenie@reddit
Doesn’t he know only the black ones matter?
juipeltje@reddit
No one is saying it isn't, but governments have their reasons for pushing this crap
NoHoneydew9516@reddit
Dummy if you read it youd understand.
Things like this affect marginalized groups more. Right now its in vogue to supress the existence of trans people, it will not just be us.
Killing these bills is necessary to protect trans people today, and everyone tommorow.
NoHoneydew9516@reddit
Wow are you just a colossal pos?
Fucking sexual disorder? Whats it with you people and making everything about me sexual. Shit has nothing to with sex, motherfucker im asexual.
poriomaniac@reddit
You are an idiot. But more than that you are a shitty person.
Richard-Squeezer@reddit
Because they have an agenda, everyone is trying to push something
JackDostoevsky@reddit
feels vaguely tautological: laws are inherently about control, yes, that is correct. laws exist to control people's behavior, for better or for worse.
SparkandFlash@reddit
Why no mass adoption of ssi?
protoanarchist@reddit
Has Linus sounded off on this one yet?
i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit
Has anyone asked ja rule's thoughts?
birds_adorb@reddit
Most people fall for the "protect the kids" propaganda to pass censorship.
ymmvxd@reddit
Hmm I wonder how people managed to live without have access to the internet
Bllago@reddit
I can't take any american opinions seriously on this topic. You all sound like blithering babies in a propaganda-controlled echo chamber.
Dramatic_Mastodon_93@reddit
The only thing that makes me more angry than Americans being stupid is stupid people calling Americans stupid when they’re being reasonable.
smallcrampcamp@reddit
Its just reddit Americans.
setibeings@reddit
Did you at least read the first few paragraphs of the article, or are you too far above being exposed to the sides of the debate that will shape the future of the internet?
PingMyHeart@reddit
Let's put all Americans in one box with a single label.
🙄
tremendoculaso@reddit
This.
CortaCircuit@reddit
Almost everything the government does is about control.
weaponsgradepotatoes@reddit
Yeah, anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows this.
When someone yells, “But think of the children!!” it’s never about the kids.
mxmissile@reddit
Oh its about the kids, its about powerful pedos tracking them to find potential victims.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
As always, the EFF has a monumentally more informed opinion than the doomsayer hive mind. They are primarily looking at this from the perspective of the first amendment rights of children, and avoiding the ridiculous slippery slope arguments that prevail here and on other subs.
People who are ill informed would be wise to shut up and let the adults in the room talk this over.
linkenski@reddit
I think an issue no one has talked about in recent decades is not just that people who go online live in their own bubbles, but that people in governemnt and politicians being in political circles also live in their own bubbles. See, as long as we're making laws, and restricting things and adding new regulations, that's what we're here for, right? Because as long as we do that, we get to be politicians. We get to have power, and that's what our lifestyle is about, right?
It's not just that people have gone crazy by being "chronically online". It's that we've both tended to our own camps and let a political bubble emerge of people who really just want to become authorities, and really just want to do whatever it is polticians do, but we're not really talking to each other anymore.
I believe real politics are formed by people with lived experiences who have enough knowledge to then enter politics and make radical changes that benefits people who actually lead apolitical lives. I think it's time for a lot of "normies" to step into politics and get the kinds of people out of the cabinets who have been active in politics since they were teenagers, as parts of group think projects and roles inside parliament, and members of a party. There's too many people who have learned the TV Game of placating a shared political goal if it means getting more power. Because now it's reaching the point where even politicians people used to trust are starting to casually join in on stuff like this, like it's the "what we all want" because that's just their usual spiel when they try to "act" as politicians.
We need people who use the internet for most of their life to go in there and say "Hey, this shit ruins it for just about everyone. Stop."
NordiskFryserUnion@reddit
Yeah no shit
nandru@reddit
Yes, and a lot of the big names in the community bent over very easily
ReachParticular5409@reddit
Where was all that good shit you were posting a few days ago about how Linux can't even have age gating?
Hmmm?
Where the fuck are your memes now?!
/r/fucklinux
ClownInTheMachine@reddit
It always is!
AliceLunar@reddit
It's a convenient Trojan horse to get it past a lot of people because it sounds like a good thing, and you wouldn't oppose protecting kids right? Why would you not want that?
herbertplatun@reddit
What a revelation! Something I'd never even considered. You should be nominated for this research. Thank you so much for your constructive contribution.
MrWeirdoFace@reddit
Yes.
smokeynick@reddit
Sure kid. Get back in bed!
Kamishini_No_Yari_@reddit
Systems in place for control masquerading as something else? Oh my god, someone go back a couple of millenia where this might not be completely fucking obvious to everyone.
mmmboppe@reddit
even Chuck Norris died after reading these news :(
bones10145@reddit
I'd say half control, half data gathering and exploitation thereof
Amazing-File@reddit
This is basically "you're not old enough! you should not learn [x]" in digital form
pdoherty926@reddit
I just donated to the EFF and I suggest whoever can do the same. There is a big, costly battle on the horizon.
arttechadventure@reddit
Gay millennial guy checking in. Raised in a Christian household, and experienced a failed attempt by my parents to be put into conversion therapy from Exodus ministries.
Can confirm all of the information I received about my sexuality that didn't come from a batshit crazy Christian person was handed down to me from reasonable people discussing the topic online.
I could have done without the years of porn addiction that followed, but it was very very important in my teens that I learned about both gay people and straight allies existing outside of my little shitty corner of upstate NY.
I think it's important for politicians and those advocating against age-gating to frame their dissent in clear opposition to barring queer youths from information they NEED and NOT PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL.
And they need to hammer that point home IN EVERY SINGLE LINE OF THEIR OPPOSITION! If they don't do this successfully, it's simply going to create an opportunity for delusional Christian people to do what they always do, which is to frame queer rights and protections for queer your as advocating for paedophilia.
Signal-Macaron-4611@reddit
It's about getting all your info selling it meta and others are funding this
Brokon999@reddit
Preaching to the choir here.
Normal_Usual7367@reddit
Reddit mods about to remove this in a few hours.
MelioraXI@reddit
Because of?
Normal_Usual7367@reddit
Censorship.
wurzlsep@reddit
surprisedpikachu.png
Pleasant-Shallot-707@reddit
Only if the age verification process uses personally identifying information
apricotseason1999@reddit
the sky is blue and the sun is white
tuxooo@reddit
Of course its about control, always has been, always will be. They care about the kids only when they have to ship them to those special islands ... this whole system is perverted to the bone. They want full control over the population, and to be able to do whatever they want with the regular people. Every single thing that comes out their mouths is a lie or something tied to a lie.
aceDim@reddit
As always, it's mostly about money. A "not so tiny" portion of your work's value ends up in big pockets. For some reason.
>Yeah, so basically the current prevailing schizo internet theory is that AI nerds have destroyed the internet and created infinite spam. The advertisement goons are now incapable of determining who is a bot and who is an actual human. The advertisement goons no longer want to pay as much to social media networks. Social media networks, in full blown panic of losing potential revenue, decided to lobby governments saying "we gotta protect the kids! ID everyone to protect the kids from pedophiles!". The social media networks know this doesn't really protect kids. But, it does two things (and a third accidentally). 1. They now can identify who is human and who is AI slop machine, or enough to appease the advertisement goons 2. Advertising to children is a general no-no from politicians, or something, so with ID verification they can say with confidence they're not advertising to children because it's been ID verification. Basically, they can weed out the children and focus on advertising to adults 3. The feds can now tell who is human and who is AI slop. This inadvertently helps them with tracking people and serving fresh daily dumps of propaganda, or whatever they want to do. It's a win-win-win for advertisers, social media networks, the government, and any business which does data collections. It fucks over everyone else. Chat, I'm not going to lie to you. This is an extremely good conspiracy schizo theory and I unironically believe it.
source : https://x.com/vxunderground/status/2032600868005310638
Human-Edge7966@reddit
So, to not be advertised to, I just have to not give our my ID?
Tiger_man_@reddit
fork found in the kitchen
razorisrandom@reddit
1/1/1979 on everything
No_Piccolo8361@reddit
Here before the mods wake up and ban you Godspeed
ThatResort@reddit
Bamboozled and flabbergasted.
WSuperOS@reddit
Fork found in kitchen
SpicySeraph@reddit
In before mods remove this post
Neuromancer_Bot@reddit
Color me surprised! /s