What a surprise, that 99% of population don't want to drive electric trash that governments try to force on people and instead want to drive cars with normal engines, that are very good enough and don't need any replacement.
Electrification improves the Rolls Royce conveyance experience. But when you spend $500K+ I guess the important experience is that you get exactly what you want. And part of what those buyers want is "you can't have this."
I've never gotten the appeal of mechanical watches. Every time someone explains it I think "I get it, kind of...but it's just a spring and a pendulum and some little gears."
I like watches for the artistry behind some of the more unusual designs, but the technical craft isn't the draw. As far as inner workings I actually prefer quartz because I can leave the watch in a drawer for 6 months and then just put it on and go. And I find piezoelectricity more interesting than spring tension and harmonic oscillation.
Some people might counter that a car is just connecting rods and valves and some planetary gears, and that they value a car for its ability to move from point A to point B as intended with little drama. In other words, for them a RAV4 hybrid is "peak car".
That's okay. They're not the target market for things like a GR Yaris or a Miata.
I agree with this. As a certifiable car nut...the right tool for the job is important. I have a Lexus RX350 hybrid for long trips and a Cayman GTS for weekends.
I *would* argue that that's all an engine is. That doesn't mean I want my car to be an appliance or that A to B transport is all I want from a vehicle. It means I value things about cars that are not just the power source. I want the power source to disappear into the background while I enjoy other aspects of the car.
I work and live around electronics all day.
I absolutely love looking at the mechanical movement on my wrist, the tiny little machine ticking away, BECAUSE it's not electronic.
Fucking sick of electronics at this point.
I get this thought, and I've had a similar thought about where the whole "millennial gray" trend in interior decoration came from. We spend all of our time bombarded by color and visual busy-ness with the software we have to use for everyday life so it's nice to have just a calming and neutral backdrop in our homes.
Yeah I wonder this too, after having to resist going full millenial grey for paining my house.
Might not explain millenial green though, which I also have to resist the urge to paint everything in.
Quartz watches function better than mechanical watches in every way. More precise, more robust (within the same design and assembly quality), far fewer moving pieces to break, etc. I mean hell, mechanical watches are literally affected by gravity, hence tourbillon systems.
But some people value that some dude sits there with white gloves and jewelers glasses and hand-assembles and tests all the tiny pieces, versus quartz oscillators leaving a factory in crates and being listed on digikey.
If you don't then obviously you're not the target market for it.
Quartz watches fail all the time. In particular they hate sitting. Can't tell you how many times I've seen a watch that got a battery change who's movement was completely shot from sitting in a drawer.
I explained in another comment that it's mechanical watches specifically. I value the craftsmanship in tailoring, furniture, jewelry. I touch all of those things and interact more directly with the results of the process. I can trace the order the tailor likes to pull his thread through buttons. I can touch the hammer marks on jewelry, etc.
All I can do with a watch movement is look at it. Quartz, manual, automatic, I can't interact with any of them. Watches interest me more as design anyway. I find women's jewelry watches and secret watches much more interesting and appealing than anything from the Swiss mechanical watch makers.
i'm in the same boat, i've never seen the appeal of expensive watches, i'll give one exception to the Midnight Planetarium but that's because it tracks planetary positions in real time too
I just looked it up and it's wild. I love the different gemstones for the planets. It's barely a watch (15 minute increments is about as accurate as an experienced farmer), but the dial, planet stones, and rotation of the planets make it an exquisite object.
A big part of the watch thing is that it's a socially acceptable form of jewelry for men. And as with most jewelry, and very much jewelry in the high cost tiers, it's about flexing wealth without literally waving around stacks of cash. Is that $50,000 Rolex actually a better timepiece than a $50 watch from a department store? No. And neither are better at keeping time than your smartphone since it syncs its time with the actual master clock. But that Rolex is a signal that the wearer is rich enough to drop $50k on a bangle.
Yeah I remember GQ constantly banging on about watches and cufflinks as "the acceptable jewelry for men" when I'd occasionally read the magazine as a teenager. Today I just wear actual jewelry. Whether or not it's socially acceptable doesn't bother me.
For me it is the opposite. I couldnt care less about automstic or quartz, but an automatic i can take out of the drawer and after spending 30s to correct the time it will always work. I have about 6 quartz watches and always at least one of them has a dead battery preventing me from being able to wear it. Automatic just works.
If that were the case they'd value people doing their best to advance the absolute cutting edge of technology: EV drive-train design
The reality is that at the luxury end there is a desire for artistry, and legacy easy-to-understand engineering is considered more "elegant" and emotive than modern hi-tech engineering.
Which is why manually wound watches machine-made to 40-year-old designs (e.g. ETA's 2824) command a premium over something like the Apple Watch which is at the absolute cutting-edge of multiple domains.
And which is why in the most well reviewed modern Ferrari, the 12Cilindri, Ferrari's innovation was [reducing peak power and selecting a worse firing order in order to make it "feel" faster](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQWKt4CRHrQ) and mechanical watches are graded on how much polished the mechanical pieces are.
> If that were the case they'd value people doing their best to advance the absolute cutting edge of technology: EV drive-train design
If that were the case, watch people would value smart watches above mechanical.
My point is that luxury goods value the illusion of craftsmanship rather than the reality.
The internals of a Longines might look impressive, but in reality are mass produced by ETA in factories according to a 40 year old design (albeit with a change of spring material).
The internals of an Apple watch are also mass produced by machines, but with designs less than 5 years old, created by people working at the absolute peak of their field, pushing forward the state of the art.
The former might look like it exhibits craft -- in the sense of skilled work by dedicated professionals -- but in reality the team behind the latter are working considerably harder to be the best that they can be.
>they'd value people doing their best to advance the absolute cutting edge of technology
I think youre confusing engineering prowess for craftsmanship. Very different things
Koenigsegg : engineering prowess :: Pagani : craftsmanship
I honestly don't understand the difference. Even as a software engineer, I see the difference between people for whom its just a job, and people for whom it's a profession to which they've dedicated as much time as they can muster to be excellent.
The difference is (a) how easy is it to perceive that excellence and (b) how much can you interact with the product of that excellence.
Fundamentally Pagani is a coach-building company making relatively slow cars (for the price) with old-fashioned Mercedes drive-trains. However what they focus on are the older trades of making the obvious things that people can interact with, which is why they are a luxury marque.
However the performance of the car is ultimately driven by the less visible, but no less sophisticated, engineering of the engine (and its ECU), brakes, suspension-components and the rest.
For a luxury marque, Pagani's focus makes sense, but it's foolish to say there's no craftsmanship in the manufacture of Koenigsegg's gearbox or carbon fibre wheels for example
As I said in another thread, this seems to conflate craftsmanship with bespoke manufacture.
I don't think something has to be bespoke to exhibit craft.
There's a lot more craftsmanship evident in an Apple Macbook Air for an example than a wheezy, creaky, plastic Dell laptop (even though it's a pity the Apple is run by such grasping rent-seekers).
Yeah because the macbook air case comes from a CNC mill hogging out a block of aluminum into shape, and you can tell. The plastic Dell comes from a cheap injection molding factory, bolted together with screws that you hope you never have to remove because you know the plastic will only survive a few cycles of screw removal and insertion.
People watch 5-axis CNC mills cutting metal into shape as a form of ASMR. Thus, craftsmanship. Even if it's automated. :)
Some guy hand-building engines in a super clean and bright room you can tour: craftsmanship
Beefy-yet-light brushless electric motors being churned out at a factory: engineering prowess
>The difference is (a) how easy is it to perceive that excellence and (b) how much can you interact with the product of that excellence.
You're missing the importance of the inputs and only looking at the outputs. Craftsmanship is just as much about the craftsman and the production process as it is about the product.
> I just don't see how you can say there's no craftsmanship in the manufacture of Koenigsegg's gearbox or carbon fibre wheels.
I didnt say that, i highlighted a difference in priority. Craftsmanship and engineering prowess are not mutually inclusive or exclusive qualities, and are very much complementary when it comes to cars.
Think of it like strength and agility. Having greater strength can help improve agility (like how football players or gymnasts train), but both can also be improved without significant focus on the other (bodybuilders or table tennis players)
You misunderstand what craftsmanship is. Craftsmanship *is* artistry. It's in the name: **craftsman**ship, something created by a *craftsman*. Not something well engineered and pumped out on an assembly line.
A big part of the appeal of craftsmanship is that it's inherently bespoke as it was created by the hands of a craftsman, not by a rigidly controlled - and often automated nowadays - assembly line.
A craftsman still has tools. It years of school -- degree, masters, Phd -- followed by further years of work-experience, to lead the design of a manufacturing process that can make a carbon-fibre wheel.
The tools people use might be different, but the personal dedication to excellence is the same.
I don't think something needs to be bespoke to exhibit craft. Neither does Pagani, they use machines to manufacture their cars too.
I’m totally fine with this. If that’s what RR buyers want that’s fine. I can’t imagine why they would want to still spend time at gas stations but sure.
But, who makes the most supple softest quiet driving ev then? Anyone with real leather or anything like that?
The question was regarding the best riding and quietest EV with the softest leather and that’s by far the Spectre. Nothing is riding better than a Rolls-Royce.
> I can’t imagine why they would want to still spend time at gas stations but sure.
Their driver spends time at gas stations, they don't. It's RR.
If someone drives themselves in one and does their own gas, it would be no different than them stopping to charge. Well, a lot faster than charging at a station, but less convenient than plugging in at home. But then you can say, I can't imagine why an RR owner would want to dirty their hands with a plug.
Ha, yeah maybe. You think most RR owners are driven around? I feel like they probably would drive it themselves but perhaps you’re right.
Most ev owners just charge at home fwiw. Especially affluent owners. I daily an ev and drive my Porsche on the weekends and have come to find gas station trips to be one of the more annoying and kinda gross parts of ICE ownership.
Probably the premium brands like BMW. The watch analogy is a great one, people value the craftsmanship and mechanical nature of something, whereas digitisation removes that. You can make the best watch in the world, but if it’s a quartz watch people won’t pay much for it. Why? Because you can get 99.9% of the way there for 1% of the cost. If you want to price it much higher, you need to do something that can’t be replicated at such a low cost, and that’s massively fine tuning the mechanics to try to get as close as possible to replicating that perfectness.
So I can’t see anyone building an EV Rolls Royce competitor. At that price point, the buyers will probably expect to see the craftsmanship as well, otherwise what separates them from a much cheaper vehicle? Other premium, but not exclusive, manufacturers on the other hand can probably get away with luxury EVs. They’re cheap enough that these luxuries are still the most important thing instead of craftsmanship. However, they’re also expensive enough to warrant doing a luxury version as well. Pay more and you expect craftsmanship which throws away the EV. Pay less and you expect to lose a lot of these luxuries.
I suspect this difference will become even more apparent when it comes to more sporty cars where the mechanical engines are celebrated even more relative to their EV counterparts.
> you can get 99.9% of the way there for 1% of the cost.
Just as with mechanical movements, there's a spectrum of the quality of quartz movements. Inexpensive ones aren't as close to expensive ones as you make it seem.
> If you want to price it much higher, you need to do something that can’t be replicated at such a low cost, and that’s massively fine tuning the mechanics to try to get as close as possible to replicating that perfectness.
It's to focus on design, materials, and construction of the timepiece. Mechanical watches also do the same thing. It's not all about the movement. Richard Mille isn't going to put their movement in a plastic case with an acrylic face.
> Pay more and you expect craftsmanship which throws away the EV.
There's more to craftsmanship than just the engine. That RR V12 was in the 7 series for years, but people still paid 4x for a Phantom because of the materials and construction.
It’s a hyperbole and simplification, but completely agree.
I’ll add with the Phantom, most of that price premium is also due to status and brand value. Yes it’s a much better car that also warrants a higher price tags on merit, but I don’t think the status or branding aspect can be understated either.
The Rolls Royce Spectre? If you mean something other than that you can look at its corporate cousin the BMW i7. The only other vehicle that can surpass the i7 is probably the Maextro S800, though I only had about 10 minutes of experience with it
Indeed.
If you look at the most legendary collectors Rolls Royces from past eras it was the well engineered v12 flagships. But fast forward 5 decades in an EV rolls Royce, will it be a collector car? Probably not. In fact it probably won’t even be on the road
I think the Spectre will be a classic if for no other reason than it's their first EV and it was genuinely something the founder wanted for the brand. I'd wager their first electric convertible will be too, but who knows when that will be at this point.
There's no reason to think it won't be on the road. Rolls Royce has services to maintain classic cars.
Well given the electronics, the battery and how fast EVs degrade, there is reason to expect nobody will want to keep them going in old age. A 1930s rolls Royce can be maintained with pretty simple mechanical parts. But a 2025 rolls Royce requires a semiconductor foundry that makes very specific chips, specialized battery plant, etc
Ferrari anticipated this, which is why they created a one time use EV warranty battery replacement because they knew the resale value would be abysmal on an older Ferrari. But if the buyer knows they have a new battery in wait when needed, it offsets that depreciation
Rich people still use mechanical watches. Same here - V12 has a ceertain charm and soul that EV (inherently better technology for luxury car) will never match
It’s about craftsmanship as the other comment says, simply having something that others do not is what poor people imagine being rich is like, see: poor who got rich like designer clothing, rich for a long time collect unique art pieces and properties.
Again you are missing the point. It doesn't matter how advanced it will be. Rich people will live in old chateau and wear Patek Philippe. It doens;t matter that technologically those thing are from XIX century
To some luxury is purely using more than others, more expensive and rare foods, more difficult to make watches, cars that do 18mpg whilst driving as silent as an EV.
Old money would appreciate the engineering and mastery that comes with making an ice powertrain incredibly smooth, new money want to show they can burn more money
>It’s a classy version of uniqueness, having good taste, owning personally important stuff that align with how you design your life.
None of those things track with Rolls Royce ownership though. People who buy rollers do it to flash their money.
A digital watch is more accurate than any mechanical watch could ever hope to be, and it can have more features too.
And yet, complication watches are what drives the luxury watch market despite some companies attempting high end variants of smart watches.
Like people said: it’s about the craftsmanship. A battery and motors doesn’t hit quite the same as “hand built car, where even the engine itself is assembled meticulously by hand”. That’s why they hand stitch everything instead of using machines for the upholstery, assemble the engine piece by piece, etc
It also doesn't help that they would have to sit around waiting for them to charge, plus quite a lot of countries don't have good charging infrastructure. one of the main ones though may be that EV's depreciate a lot in price quite quickly and i can imagine a lot of their clients don't want to buy what they see as an asset that's likely to half in value every 2-3 years.
Spectre owners would charge them at home, I can’t imagine many are stopping of at service stations for an hour to charge it up.
As for depreciation in the UK at least the Spectre is holding up pretty well. 2.5 year old ones have “only” lost about 20% of their value.
It might only be 20% because they’re still pretty scarce but yeah I was looking forward to picking one up for £100k at 3-5 years old but sadly they’re still all up at £300k ish
I'm fully in the James house here. Electrification of super luxury SUV's just makes sense. The electric drivetrain is naturally suited to such things and the money is there for a super saloon EV with a 200 kw/hr battery pack and a 600 mile range. The tech is there too. It seems a shame that the Thomas opinion, while respectable, is the leading though process.
To me EV's have just as many engineering challenges but we choose to downplay them or just not push the boundaries like is done in ICE vehicles.
Cadillac had a chance with the Celestiq but they blew it. It's not cool enough to justify the price and the drivetrain is lackluster. Put the Silverado EV drivetrain and battery in a big ass sedan, make it unabashedly a Caddy, and whatch the poors weep from your triple paned glass windows. The base price of the Celestiq is $300,000 for crying out loud, I think they had room in the budget for something more interesting.
I really don’t understand why for $300k it has a smaller battery and less motors than the Launch edition Hummer EV. For that money it should easily do 600+ miles per charge and do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds. People aren’t buying it for speed, but at the price no one is looking for “adequate.”
In fact, Cadillac one, The Beast even isn’t an unique Caddy model. It’s just an armed Chevy Kodiak/GMC Topkick with sedan body.
Sharing part isn’t real issue. Do RR buyers care their RRs just being upscale 7-series ? I don’t hear that.
Look man. If I had 300K for a Caddy. There better be a V12 or V16 in it. At that price point. I'm not looking for an EV with shared parts from the rest of the line up. I might as well get the EV Caddy atp
All the commenters totally missing the point wasting the internet. They are simply clearly seeing EV tech is about to take a big step and are waiting while sales would be strong with existing factory investments.
Conversely, the mass market will be able to get comparable luxury and refinement at affordable prices as it goes further down the road of electrification. Think of an EV Camry in 10-15 years, potentially.
Best to let the customers decide, make EV and ICE models until the ICE models don't get sold in big enough numbers. ICE has a lot of sentimental momentum, but it will fade as EV tech becomes less exotic. Same happened in the switch to digital cameras. Nowadays, even the pros use digital.
I'm not sure I understand the reason behind having a v12 in a hyperlux sedan. Like what benefit does it provide over a simpler v8 or electric other than the fact that it's a v12?
So they wanted to go EV when EVs were expensive and only available to the super rich. Now that EVs are affordable to the masses, they roll back to seem more classy and not look very cheap.
This is the same as the watch industry's "quartz crisis". The modern quartz watch (typically battery-powered) are far more accurate, but that wasn't the end of the story. Many luxury watch consumers crave mechanical watches and that's why a variety of luxury watch brands only even offer mechanical watches to this day.
Rolls-Royce seems to have had some early success with the Spectre, but a full conversion of their lineup to EVs makes less sense.
In a way, furniture too.
If you are only after the utility of the item, we have mastered that at scale for very low prices. If you care about the craftsmanship, history, etc well the sky's the limit on price.
It's interesting you bring up furniture. I've paid for custom furniture, clothing, and a couple of other things. And I value the craftsmanship there. Why should I appreciate that craftsmanship but not for mechanical watches?
I think furniture and clothing feel more intimate. There's nothing between you and the object so the relationship feels less abstract, whereas with watches the craftsmanship is somewhere inside the case and I can't touch it or feel the effect of them making one decision over another. I can touch the stitching, the wood joints. If the thing I commissioned is unusual I can see the process of the craftsperson figuring it out and trace it with my hands. With mechanical watches the most I can do is look through a glass.
Another major difference is that with smaller commissions is I form a relationship with the individual making the thing, I go to their studio, I see how they lay things out and work. You only get that relationship with watches and cars if you're spending 7 figures.
More electric Rolls-Royce models will be released in the future, though some will still be available with a petrol engine. They haven’t stopped developing EVs but just decided to keep petrol around for a bit longer.
Rolls Royce is probably the only luxury brand that can truly pull off an EV, it weighs as much as a boat but throw a 1000+hp electric motor at it and have it go 0-60 in Mach Jesus and people will ignore the fact it’s an EV
You would think a brand that's known for 'smooth, quiet, powerful rides' would rush for a powertrain that provides a smooth, quiet, yet powerful ride, and allow for even more tech and luxury to be added.
This is why I thought forcing EV on everyone was a bad idea. It should have been the budget option not the luxury option. When gas is $20 a gallon only the rich can afford gas and everyone else is driving light weight, stripped down Miata like electric vehicles that are cheap to run.
Why would somebody want to buy a $500k Rolls Royce that's going to be completely devalued and turn into electronic garbage in 7 to 10 years? Nobody's going to be buying a used Rolls Royce with a EV powertrain in 10 years. If you want people to view your cars as e-waste, put an EV motor in it. If you want it to be something that lasts forever, stick with ICE.
vindication of the fact that engineering actually means something.
if anyone can do it, as with every car having 2000 hp nowadays, it just doesn't mean anything.
Honestly I'd love it if some super low production of a new Stanley Steamer got released but with modern engineering. The biggest hurdle (and there are a lot) is that the technical know how and supply chain engineering would all need to be relearned, so even as a batch of 10-100 hand made cars, they would be prohibitively expensive even comparatively to competition and way too unreliable.
It’s not that it doesn’t “mean anything”, the standard has increased. The fact that any electric car can be a quiet and smooth ride is technological advancement and progress.
Usually the V12 stays because it's what makes the car cool to begin with.
The phantom isn't really like that though. If muffles and silences it's V12.
I'm not too surprised though. The old guys that can afford these want that they know. Which is ICE.
Much less expensive segment, more 7 series than RR.
But yes, that's one of the reasons the Jaguar GT is high on my list. They've committed to electrification as competitors are pulling back, have developed the platform to provide what I want from an EV, are design-forward in their approach. The only question mark is how they execute the interior.
there is also a perception that electric vehicles (like other electronic gadgets) are essentially disposable.
although your average individual that purchases a rolls royce probably doesn't keep it forever, the idea that you could maintain it basically forever adds to the purchase experience.
rich people like to think that they are getting some kind of maximum quality, part of which is extended usable life, for the extra dollars.
i would argue that the same holds true for mechanical
watches, premium leather goods, luxury clothing etc.
They need to make an EV motor that is complicated enough to be exclusive (and probably require excessive maintenance). Until then it’s hard to see why customers would buy one as there is zero drive train exclusivity.
>When the brand’s first electric car, the Spectre, was announced in 2021, Rolls-Royce was planning to move to a fully electric portfolio by 2030. However, global demand, especially at the luxury end of the market, hasn’t matched anticipated levels.
Wanting one of the last V12 Rolls-Royce's made should've been a predictable desire. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
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