Pilots..how is fatigue actually handled during IROPs?

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wasnizam@reddit

The 'if you're questioning it, you already are' rule is spot on and honestly should be drilled in harder during initial training.

One thing that gets overlooked in IROP fatigue conversations is the cognitive cost of the irregular ops itself — the delays, the rebriefs, the logistics problem-solving — all of that is mentally taxing before you even consider sleep deprivation. Your actual fatigue load going into the flight is higher than the rest calculation suggests.

The crews who handle it best seem to have two things in common: they've internalized that a fatigue call is a professional decision, not a personal failing, and they track their own patterns well enough to know when they're approaching the edge before it becomes obvious. The regulatory limits are a floor, not a target.

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Discon777@reddit

If I’m not fit to fly, I don’t fly. I do my best to get adequate rest within the confines of the situation I’m placed in… we’re professionals and are usually pretty good at it! But if that doesn’t work and I’m fatigued, I take myself off the trip by calling in and that’s that. Usually it puts you back into a 10 hour rest period and scheduling can use you as necessary after that. No professional would just “push through” of truly too fatigued to operate an aircraft

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More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit

Out of curiosity do you have to defend your fatigue call and if the company doesn't find in your favor you lose sick time?

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Wafer420@reddit

You don't have to defend it. But if it happens 3 times a year, you're gonna get questions on where it goes wrong.

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More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit

Unfortunately at my shop you have to file a report. That report is reviewed by both union and company. If company feels the fatigue is your fault due to say..... sleeplessness you're sick time is docked. There is no appeal process.

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gromm93@reddit

Personally, I'd rather lose some sick pay than fly in any kind of dangerous state.

The problem I have would be "how long will I actually stay employed because my brain decides to kick me in the nuts at 2am and forces me to stay awake until 7", several times a year.

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Discon777@reddit

I’ve never had to defend a call, but they do get reviewed by a joint committee between the company and the union. I imagine most are pretty easy to corroborate

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bosslaydeewhit@reddit (OP)

Thank u! This makes alot of sense!!! Appreciate your insight! From your experience, do you think theres ever a gap between being "legal" + actually feeling fit to fly? Especially during IROPs when schedules get pretty hectic?

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Discon777@reddit

In the sense that sometimes “legal” is not enough? Absolutely. That’s why we’re professionals and get paid to make decisions that could have significant economic and human impact. Regulations are just words on paper, they’re the minimum. We have agency and are empowered to make necessary decisions to ensure flight safety. Safety is by far the most important aspect of what we do

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bosslaydeewhit@reddit (OP)

So do you ever feel like doing eye drops it is harder to make that call durin IROPS when its crazy? Or is it pretty straightforward for you to decide whether not to fly?

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Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit

Zero difference. If I'm not safe to fly and the company doesn't have a backup plan, that's their issue to solve, not mine.

I'm not going to go out of my way to fuck the operation over, but I can't solve every problem either. The company would rather take a delay than me in the news for a crash.

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Jmann356@reddit

Nope. If you’re fatigued, you’re fatigued and you call out. End of story. It’s protected by the FAA, you say the F word to scheduling and nothing they can do. You get pulled off what you’re doing and given rest and fill out a fatigue form after you’re rested.

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flyboy130@reddit

Nope. Makes no difference.

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Discon777@reddit

No it’s pretty straightforward

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JPAV8R@reddit

Obviously try and plan your rest, nutrition, and exercise to optimize rest.

BUT…

In crewed ops sometimes just gotta study the overhead panel. Anyone who hasn’t, hasn’t done this long enough; anyone offended by that also hasn’t done this long enough.

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JumboTrijet@reddit

Yep. When 117 was being formed, it was modeled from EASA’s rules. However, they left out Controlled Cockpit Rest. A Deputy Administrator for the FAA (forgot her name) was asked about pilots sleeping in the cockpit in a press conference . Her reply was “not on my watch”. Yeah, just throw out science because of the perceived optics.

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JPAV8R@reddit

Yeah the people puffing their chests and talking about fatigued is fatigued have never flown a leg long enough to start rested and end up tired enroute. I wonder what their solution to that is.

Land immediately? lol

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spacecadet2399@reddit

The short answer is that fatigue is handled the same during an IROP as it is at any other time.

There is greater risk of fatigue during an IROP, but that just means there are more fatigue callouts. It doesn't mean more pilots are flying fatigued. (Or it shouldn't; I guess I can't speak for everyone, but it's true of everyone I know.) That can make the IROP worse, but that's not the pilots' problem.

Just want to address this specifically:

are there situations where you’ve felt too fatigued even though you were technically legal?

It sounds like a technicality but it's not: if we're too fatigued, then we are not legal, by definition. So your question, as you phrased it, is moot. We *have to* call out fatigued, by regulation.

I think what you meant was legal in terms of duty and flight hours, though. Again, though, in the case of running over our time limits, there's no judgment involved. It's clear-cut. So any fatigue callout is by definition going to be when we were "technically legal" in terms of duty/flight hours. Otherwise we wouldn't need to do it. But we do need to do it if we're not fit to fly or we are still breaking a regulation.

Can there be pressure to not call out fatigued during an IROP? Yes, but we're big boys and girls and anyway none of us are going to risk our lives and careers by flying when we know we shouldn't. It's not worth it. No one gets in any actual trouble for calling out fatigued. So you might need to deal with a scheduler who sounds kind of annoyed; big whoop. The consequences for not calling out fatigued can be a lot worse. Even if nothing bad happens on your flight, it still gives the airline the impression that it's ok to schedule pilots however they scheduled you that made you fatigued. We do need to be a little flexible during IROPs but I have been in situations that were clearly under the airline's control but where they scheduled me right up against my duty limits several days in a row, and with opposite schedules (day/night), and a couple of times with emergency assignments in the middle of those trips. And I called out fatigued those times.

And honestly, when enough pilots do that, it does change how airlines handle things in the future.

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srbmfodder@reddit

Uhhh… I call fatigued. I don’t care if it’s IROPs. That’s a management problem, not a Bob problem.

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SPav8r@reddit

At my major it’s a non-issue. I’ve extended in the past a few times, feeling fine in the moment but later on feeling tired and I told myself I wouldn’t do that in the future.

We call scheduling, tell them “I’m making a fatigue call for my next leg” and then they ask when you will be rested enough to go back to work. They get us a hotel, and then figure out how to rejoin the trip or send us home. It’s all non-jeopardy, you don’t lose money as long as the fatigue call is deemed operationally caused, and that’s pretty much all there is to it. The FAA has made it that way.

It’s important to be able to face an emergency ready to perform, because if we f* it up we will be held liable, and being tired is not going to be an acceptable excuse.

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JumboTrijet@reddit

“IROPS” is irrelevant. Fatigue is fatigue.

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Mavs-bent-FA18@reddit

During IROPs, who cares? IROPs are fatiguing. I’m more annoyed when people are a liability and haven’t called out.

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flyboy130@reddit

I literally just fatigued out during this last IROP at my company. I just didn't get enough sleep before a long redeye and they delayed our redeye from like midnight to 2am (and that seemed optimistic)...I didn't have it in me to eat a 2hr+ delay safely so I called fatigued. The fact that it was an IROP didn't mean anything to me in my decision making it was just coincidental that it caused a delay.

I was not fit to fly. Its my legal and moral duty to call out in the name of safety. IDGAF what state or readiness the company/operation is in only what state I am in. IROPs are a them problem not a me problem. Them not having enough reserves to cover me calling out is a them problem. Me keeping myself and everyone else safe is a me problem and fatigue calls are the solution.

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Baystate411@reddit

And the shit part about part 117 is that this then goes to a reserve who's been on call since 2000 and they are probably no better.

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flyboy130@reddit

I mean at least the reserve knew that could happen and should have managed their rest accordingly. If they tried and failed like I did then they just fatigue out too...and the cycle repeats. Or someone gets a premium trip...

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Baystate411@reddit

Yes but we all know it doesn't go down like that in real life. You failed to get rest, call fatigued, it goes operational and you get paid.

Reserve calls fatigue and is expected to be rested for a 14 hour RAP including overnight. They call fatigued and it gets marked non operational and they lose the pay.

He had to prep for a 14 hour duty day, you had to prep for a 6 hour duty day.

Part 117 is garbage for reserves.

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Lanky_Beyond725@reddit

Yep I was just on basically a PM reserve from noon on, during these IROP storms in east coast. Fly from 11pm to 430am the first day, then they call me the 2nd day of storms, fly 7pm to 2am (get home 4am). Third day they call again and I call out fatigued. It's ridiculous what they can do to people under 117 reserve rules.

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74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit

My man.

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poser765@reddit

My general rule is if I am starting to genuinely question my fatigue, I’m fatigued.

There have been plenty of times when I’m fatigued, but still legal. If you exceed 117 limits, you’re done. A fatigue call is not a function of duty or flight time limits exclusively.

I’ll give you a live example. Had a 8am departure with a small airport sit to them fly another 2 hours. Pretty short duty day, only two flights. I’m well away from my table B limits but my short sit has turned into 4:30 hours. I’m starting to get worn out and if it rolls any more I’ll probably fatigue it.

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GulfTPA@reddit

Airport sits fatigue me almost more than anything else.

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poser765@reddit

Damn right. I feel like an airport sit accrues fatigue at a 2:1 rate compared to flying.

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bosslaydeewhit@reddit (OP)

Wowwwww...That example was good it made me get your POV.. thank you!!!

Situations like the long sit turnin into 4+ hours are what I’ve been curious about..... because... do those kinds of changes happen often during IROPs? does anyone on the ops side factor that in, or is it mostly left to the pilot to decide???

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poser765@reddit

Happen often in IROPs? Oh definitely. It’s not likely, it’s expected.

No crew scheduling and tracking to do not factor anything other than our legality. The planners look at two things… is the pilot legal, and are they reachable. They have holes to plug and we are the plug so they’ll stick us in as long as we are legal. We are totally dependent on assessing our own fatigue.

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bosslaydeewhit@reddit (OP)

you say it’s expected during IROPs... do you ever feel like there’s ever a realistic way for ops/scheduling to factor fatigue in, or is it just too dynamic in the moment?

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fatmanyolo@reddit

I call, say the magic words, and am assigned a hotel room. It’s not a big deal.

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SkippytheBanana@reddit

Always call out if it ever crosses your mind. Sometimes it sneaks up on you and you had no idea.

The worst fatigued call I’ve made was after I cold cocked the FMS after not realizing it was user error and then almost slamming us to a stop on a high speed when I thought the taxiway centerline lights were edge lights. Up until that point it never even crossed my mind I was dangerously fatigued.

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74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit

My first duty is the safety of the customers.

Company staffing or passengers not getting to their destination on time is not my concern.

The second statement sounds cold as fuck...

I thank the Lord every day that - when I erroneously decided that the company's staffing and/or the customers needs were more important - it didn't't cost the ultimate price and I'm here to talk about it.

Not preaching to anyone, been there done that, got Lucky. We all talk about not flying broken aircraft all through training, V1 cuts ad nauseum, etc etc but fatigue gets a 10 minute CBT.

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Vincent-the-great@reddit

As soon as you say the F word to scheduling everything that happens afterwards is not your problem for the next 10 hours. Ive done it once for a variety of reasons that all added up against me and luckily I was in base and they sent me home.

In a professional environment its is our obligation to self check our condition and assess the situation. If you feel unsafe do not fly. This is why 121 flying is so safe because we have legal safeguards in place written in blood, if it was a 135 or part 91 your job would be on the line.

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KroKart100@reddit

I’ve had a few fatigue calls, while still being technically legal.

One thing you need to think about is if that day you’re flying is the day where everything hits the fan, will I mentally be able to handle.

For example - a day where you might question if you should call fatigue might be the day you have a real V1 cut and a medical at the same time. That’s exactly my through process before calling fatigue. If I do not think I can handle that, I call fatigue. Luckily, my company has a no harm no foul fatigue policy. I do try and give them ample time to fill the flight if need be though

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Oregon-Pilot@reddit

If I’m fatigued on a regular vanilla day, I’m not fit to fly, so I don’t.

If I’m fatigued during IROPS, I’m not fit to fly, so I don’t.

The parts of the body that make flying fatigued dangerous do not know, nor do they care, about whether or not we’re in an IROPS situation.

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redcurrantevents@reddit

Every fatigue call is when you are technically legal to fly. Otherwise it isn’t a fatigue call, you would just be removed for an illegality. At my airline they require that you call and use the word ‘fatigue’ so there is not ambiguity. They ask you how much rest you need, and schedule you accordingly, removing you from the flight.

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swakid8@reddit

You call it and go back to the gate….

That simple. I’ve done it before dealing delays waiting for deicing and anti-icing. About the time I got into the pad, I was looking at a 3am arrival time at my destination on my body clock and I was awake since 7am…..

So, I called it and went back to the gate, flight canceled and went to the hotel…

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NotASwinger69@reddit

At most major airlines in the US you just call in fatigued and that’s that. What happened behind the scenes isn’t your problem.

You don’t have to have a reason why, you just do. And that’s that.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Curious from a pilot perspective...during IROPs when everything’s changing fast, how is fatigue actually handled in practice???

I know legality (rest rules) drives a lot of decisions, but are there situations where you’ve felt too fatigued even though you were technically legal?

How does that usually get handled; do you call fatigue, push through, or does scheduling step in?

Just trying to understand how this works in real-world ops.

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