Anyone else refusing to pay scalper prices for the 5090? This is my play

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Echo-Four-Yankee@reddit

I got extremely lucky with Nvidia Priority Access Program. I've had a 5090 from very near the launch date. I'm just waiting for something new to come out because I can't upgrade to anything at the moment because the upgrade doesn't exist. The only plus to the that is the massive amount I've saved from no uogrades.

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itsamamaluigi@reddit

You don't need a 5090. Nobody needs a 5090.

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Gopnikolai@reddit

High-performance VR and us 5120x1440p people who want to max out every setting, especially ray/path tracing.

I don't care if it was an exaggeration; saying 'nobody' needs one is flat out wrong. Also, what about when VR games start introducing demanding ray/path tracing? The performance demand is insane. Just because you can't ever see yourself getting/needing one, doesn't mean nobody else does.

Bean soup theory.

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HugeDegen69@reddit

For high performance VR you definitely do

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SQU4RE@reddit

“640K of memory ought to be enough for anybody.” -Bill Gates

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guzthegreat@reddit

Running 4k ultra settings is demanding af! Dlss + fg 2/3/4 with a 5080 still barely makes 4k worth it.

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BassIck@reddit

I've just learned how crazy the current landscape is, after a long break from high end PC's

I configured a spec based on a recommended spec from 3 different AI apps and it was coming in at 5k. Virtually half of that was the 5090 GPU.

I've decided to wait to.see if a 5080 with 24gb bran is released, but dread to think what it will cost.

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CanisMajoris85@reddit

by the time the 5090 is a "reasonable" price, the 6070 or 6080 will be out and far cheaper anyway while the 6080 likely faster in gaming. You almost certainly don't need 32gb vram, 16gb will probably do.

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Drekavac666@reddit

My 3060 plays everything fine. I think people need to relax when most of us were content playing halo on a crt growing up. The fact my 64gb of ddr4 is now like $400 is insane though.

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Wicked_Googly@reddit

Yeah, everyone's crazy. Just get what you can afford and have fun. Such a stupid dick-wagging competition and so much money in makinf videos and articles comparing video cards.

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randylush@reddit

You have people like OP who literally just plays Warzone and is plotting on when he will buy a 5090 lol

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WeeoWeeoWeeeee@reddit

Warzone runs like ass. Streamers run top gear and show 200+ FPS so everyone thinks the need that to compete. The game is just bad.

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randylush@reddit

And I’m pretty sure the netcode runs at like a 12.5hz tick rate so having a good rig really doesn’t matter. But I do really miss that game. It’s an absolute travesty that they’ve completely ruined it.

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WeeoWeeoWeeeee@reddit

Oh absolutely. The most fun I’ve ever had playing games with friends.

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Yoruichi88@reddit

Goold old (OG) verdansk

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Fit-Judge7447@reddit

What does "playing everything fine" mean though? 1080p? At that point, why not just get a PlayStation or Xbox? Most of us were happy with rotary phones ag some point too, so why get a smartphone? Like, what is this logic? Why get a car? We used to be fine with horse and buggy

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Drekavac666@reddit

Yes, I am saying 1080p is perfectly fine to enjoy things with, and a PC is far more useful than a console. I have bad vision as is, so I save money on pixels. 4k would be nice, but it's far from needed to look good. You can build an affordable PC that plays games, and it's wreckless with the economy right now and state of game development to need a modern PC to enjoy things at a base level. I can enjoy 720p so long as the frames are fine, honestly. Sorry, I have an unpopular opinion that it's overhyped for what you get.

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ImYourDade@reddit

Being "content" isn't really a good argument tbh. But I do agree people take it way too far. I think it's fine to want better performance, I certainly want better performance. But I also think midrange is absolutely great these days and I personally wouldn't buy anything over 9070xt or 5070 unless I had money burning a hole in my pocket.

But just because we played games with worse performance in the past it doesn't mean better performance doesn't matter, especially when comparing 30 fps to 60 or even more

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Drekavac666@reddit

I am not really preaching being content as much as people don't realize they are overspending. It's like buying an F1 car as a daily driver when the speed limit is 45 mph. I get 90 fps on my 3060 but I guess 4k is the main difference. I think performance is maxed out with most PC's built in the last 6 years it's more the extra levels of things that are not entirely needed that are overvaluing it and also sunk cost fallacy going on too.

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ImYourDade@reddit

That's fair, but I think there's still a few viable tiers of products (at least when MSRP was real). But something like the 5090 was always overkill, and 5080 was probably at the top of realistic performance gain, while still being awful price to performance.

It also adds a layer of safety as the higher you go the less you'll even have to worry about being able to run whatever game at whatever resolution. I know some games I had to fiddle with settings a lot to make them playable. And while it's probably the games not being optimized, if I had dropped 1-2k on a gpu I'm sure it would've been much less of a battle with settings

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primerabbit7@reddit

But with these cards, we are talking about fps on most non AAA games so high, they go past the refresh rate of your monitor. At that point, what's the point?

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ImYourDade@reddit

Not everyone plays indie games, lots of modern titles are still fairly demanding. I know my 3080 struggles at 1440p in some games, I've had to cap at 60 in a few titles even.

But yea, if I'm playing balatro I don't really care about getting 1000 fps, yea

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ProfessionalRandom21@reddit

And people was content with famicon and Atari growing up on black and white crt tv at 30 fps.

Time change, the future is now

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isotope123@reddit

The 6080 will likely only catch the 4090 in performance, given the current gap and trajectory.

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IrrelevantTale@reddit

Yeah and the intergenerational performance jumps due to architecture improvements has several dwindled. Between the 30, 40 and 50 series.

The 5070 is only 5-15% better in raw performance from the 3090. The 3090 is still going for 1k used on ebay. I got super lucky to pick up mine for 750.

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Alan_Turings_Apple@reddit

The 3090 is an exception due to its insane VRAM. The 3080 is very close in performance and can be had for 350-400 on ebay.

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Ok-Parfait-9856@reddit

A lot of people forget (even me) that the 3080 ti and 3090 are basically the same card but double the vram. 12gb 3080s are probably one of the best deals out there (basically a 3080 ti). There’s also a non insignificant amount of 20gb 3080 engineering samples out there.

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farq3x@reddit

This. Went from 3080 12GB to 5090. The 3080 was EXACTLY 50% of the FPS in raster. In ALL titles almost. I sold my 5090 for a scalper price and went 5080, and lets just say my 5080 is for sale, and Im hunting for a 3080 12GB/ti. I got both 5080 and 5090 way below MSRP through my job, made a huge profit on 5090. About to make a sick profit on this 5080 and going back to 3080. Fuck this BS pricing

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MassiveBoba@reddit

Whereabout are you that you gonna make sick profit on 5080 - can be had around RRP in UK from few places.

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farq3x@reddit

Read the comment. I live in Poland. I work a Corpo job. I get a discount of almost 60% on all PC parts.

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MassiveBoba@reddit

So why you hunting for used 3080 when you can get new 5080 for same price with your discount. Just doesn’t make sense

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farq3x@reddit

I cannot just order 100x 5080s. I ordered 2 through my employer. I cannot just ask him to order more and sell them. Thats illegal. Hence Im selling the 5080, and buying a used 3080 12gb - 600€ profit for me, and a used 3080 suits my needs.

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Fit-Judge7447@reddit

That doesn't make any sense though, since the pricing doesn't affect you. If you got a 5090 and 5080 for 60% off, why not just enjoy them?

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farq3x@reddit

Because I needed the money for my grandmothers chemo, since you clearly need details. Even though there is plenty provided.

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MassiveBoba@reddit

Fair enough. Not sure about prices but I would personally go for 4070 or even 5060ti. Much lower power draw and same performance. Good luck

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farq3x@reddit

I dont use DLSS. 3080 12gb/ti can be found for much less money than both, bought a 3080ti 5800x3d PC for 750€ yesterday, about to sell the 5800x3d rig with no GPU for 750 in Germany. 3080ti is stronger in raster @4k by quite a bit. 4070ti would be the closest contender, but it sells for on avg 2x.

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farq3x@reddit

Can be had well below RRP… I literally sold 5080s for a living all January. PL->NL

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Fit-Judge7447@reddit

That's for everything though. The PS5 wasn't as big of a jump as the PS4 is, and so on. I have a feeling we're getting close to peaking graphics wise

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IrrelevantTale@reddit

Yeah honestly devs are having to rely more and more on DLSS ans frame gen to get performance where it needs to be because the light and graphics demands are creeping closer and closer to simulation level every game release and computation power just cant keep up.

They dont realize gamers prefer fun gameplay and stylized art direction over realistic graphics everytime.

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Thecurvyguy@reddit

They made that mistake with the beast of a gpu, 1080ti, and they won’t make that same mistake again

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hypexeled@reddit

i feel like thats a dumb take. If they had kept making new 1080TIs every release then the 1080 TI would have been left so far behind in the dust that it wouldnt be so well remembered anymore.

The 1080TI is only known as the goat and lasted so long because of how bad 20 series was and how mediocre anything afterwards was.

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Regular_Strategy_501@reddit

The story of the 1080TI is always cracking me up. The reason for it being as powerful and as comparatively cheap as it was basically boils down to AMD making such big announcements around those times that Nvidia got spooked and released a product to rival those announcements. AMD was not actually able to meet the big claims they made and were completely left in the dust. Remember that AMD had 20% GPU market share when the 1080TI was released. Every since that gen, AMD has not been able (or willing) to meaningfully compete with Nvidia at the top of the line, leading to their market share to drop to a fifth of what it was just 8 years ago.

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Thecurvyguy@reddit

That’s exactly what I’m saying, they made the 1080ti so so so much better than the previous generation and the generations after that people didn’t upgrade for 2-3 generations.

Nowadays they drip feed the upgrade from generation to generation.

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Comfortable-Finger-8@reddit

I had my 1080ti until i got the 4090 within a year of release so i could play in 4k

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Ok-Parfait-9856@reddit

The 3000 series was a solid uplift, and the 4000 series saw a good uplift on xx70 cards and above. xx60 cards haven’t relieved much love though, a 5060 ti matches a 3070 ti more or less. Overall I agree with you but I’ll always find the 3000 series impressive; except vram maybe. Their raster uplift, plus RT and AI hardware that works pretty well unlike the 2000 series.

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insanekyo@reddit

I think we can blame it on the shift for more reliance on AI tools. Running games on their native resolution is sadly a thing of the past.

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ringed_city_117@reddit

People were saying the 6090 was going to be on a smaller node size and be a similar performance jump that the 4090 was to the 3090

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changen@reddit

5080 overclocked will catch a 4090 already. There was a lot of performance left on the table by nvidia probably for the Super release (that never happened due to the AI bubble), and partially the reason why the 5080 was a lackluster card at stock.

6080 can probably catch a 5090 once overclocked for the same reason if "leaks" are to be believed.

That will be the card I will be going for. Waiting for Zen6/7 X3d to release then upgrading my GPU.

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isotope123@reddit

6080 can probably catch a 5090

Given the gap in performance and the likelihood the 6080 will be close to the same spec as the 5080 (16GB of GDDR7 memory, 10,752 CUDA cores, and a 256-bit bus), I just don't see how process node shrink alone makes up that difference.

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grizzlyadamsmf@reddit

the 60 series will use a smaller process node than the 40 and 50

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isotope123@reddit

I understand that, but i don't see it being a bigger chip than the 5080. So my assumption is most improvements will come from process advancement and better gddr. Given that assumption a 15-20% generational lift gets it to 4090 levels

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ThatLunchBox@reddit

The 50 series is underwhelming as it uses the same tech as the 40 series. Just like the 20 vs 10 series. The 30 series was a big jump and I would ordinarily expect the 60 series to be as well. But with nvidia and their AI nonsense lately, idk.

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XiTzCriZx@reddit

Don't worry, they'll have 10x frame gen and every card will theoretically beat a 4090. /s

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Ready-Kick2579@reddit

What makes you think there will even be a 6080? The way things are going, the 5080/5090 is going to be the last consumer GPU produced. Everything now is pointing towards cloud based GeForce NOW subscriptions for consumers.

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CanisMajoris85@reddit

FFS I’m tired of all this “we’ll own nothing” bs. That’s not happening.

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spaceshipcommander@reddit

Image and video generation easily hits the vram limit on a 5090. There will be games that do it at some point.

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AsANetflixSubscriber@reddit

I play Warzone in 4K with a 5090 and that alone is using 18GB of RAM. Kinda scared me when I saw that; I thought I’d be good for a good long time but now I wonder.

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dantemp@reddit

We might be at 70 series cards by the time supply catches up to demand, last I read about it , it would take 3-4 years for the new fabs to be up and running

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Significant_Fill6992@reddit

if they correct at all outside of a new Chinese manufacture. I am a little concerned that both amd and nvidia will just ignore even if the ai boom fails. A company like nvidia would rather fail then be forced to revert back to having a larger percentage of profit come from consumers

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makoblade@reddit

Until sometime forces a paradigm shift, we're not going to be okay. Nvidia is the only game in town for high end GPUs and they know it.

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Kool_AidJammer@reddit

I hope intel continues making strides in the budget market. I know the arc b580 isn’t some powerhouse and the drivers had issues at launch but it’s a great alternative for someone who just needs a pc to play games without top end hardware. I can see myself going the intel route in the future if this hardware shortage continues over the next 5 years.

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Smashego@reddit

Yeah that’s not going to be accurate at all. Due to diminishing returns for node shrinks and diffixulty achieving those node 2 node improvements you’d be lucky if a 6080 delivers 4090 preformance. The 5090 really is the sweet spot of S tier die’s right now.

It’s unfortunate the price that it is, but it’s going to be the best bang for your buck for a long long long freaking time.

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CanisMajoris85@reddit

RTX 4090 is only like 15% faster than a RTX 5080. 15% improvement next generation will be easy. RTX 50 series and 40 series were both 5nm, they just weren't different.

60 series will be 3nm. It will be different, it will be faster. To say a 6080 won't be faster than a 4090 is kinda ridiculous. Could easily be a 20-40% uplift in rasterization.

So ya maybe a RTX 6080 doesn't beat the RTX 5090, but it will beat 4090.

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lolwatokay@reddit

Course, if it's anything like this time that won't be true because soon as the 6xxx cards start to exist they'll just stop making the 5xxx cards and those will go up in price.

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CanisMajoris85@reddit

No they won't. Ebay prices will drop. Just look at used RTX 3090 prices. RTX 4090 is only a lot because people can slap another 24gb vram on it in China.

retailer prices for discontinued products mean jack shit.

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Gregardless@reddit

6070 = 5090 its just that easy

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unabnormalday@reddit

I found that the only time I even come close to 32GB on my 5090 is when I installed a local model for deepseek 32b ai model. It gets to like, 31 / 31.5 useable VRAM. it’s fun to self host and play around with but I don’t really have a need for it so I won’t keep using it

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ultimaim@reddit

bruh you are dreaming if you think 5090 will ever hit 2k again

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_AlphaZulu_@reddit

I bought a 5090 in December for $2495. So glad I did.

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k1dsmoke@reddit

I thought prices had dropped back down to retail last year, what has caused them to shoot up again? Supply run out?

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ggRezy@reddit

Ai, palantir, Nvidia, Israel

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Significant-Till-306@reddit

I think this is it, their primary production focus right now is enterprise GPU for DCs, not consumer grade hardware. I'd imagine most factories are primarily purposed for enterprise not consumer hardware, so production volume of RTX is low.

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k1dsmoke@reddit

I get it, but data centers, etc were ramping up still while the prices were dropping and ram prices were increasing.

My guess is that Nvidia just stopped manufacturing them and they are starting to get more scant again.

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Virtual_Promotion_39@reddit

AI data centers

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XSC@reddit

It will when it’s 12k.

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Significant-Till-306@reddit

Never pay the scalpers ever. If no one buys from them they will lose money. There is always some fools that will do it however. If some scalper buys 20 gpus and loses $200 on each one because no one would buy from them they'll never do it again.

I would never pay for than 70% value (even package sealed which can be faked) from a private seller or any reseller. Amazon is tricky too, they hide the true vendor so you don't readily know that its not direct from PNY or ASUS etc but a third party.

Don't be simps yall, there is no reason to pay scum ever.

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jetstrea87@reddit

Just settle for the 5070ti = price/performance is there unless you want about 15% more performance for $600 extra get the 5080.

I wanted the 5090, saw the price and was like no way. So I settle for the 5070ti, lucky my ram I got it for $150 back in July 2025 - 32gb same kit is not $550.

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Leather-Geologist688@reddit

I ended up getting a 5070ti. Too bad I bought a PSU with 1300Watts to get a 5090. Oh well. At least my PSU is future proof. lol It's crazy that a 5090 right now is $4K! I can buy a used card for that much.

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cuteman@reddit

You sound like a reasonable person.

These people are out of their minds thinking they need a 5080/5090 when they're on a budget for everything else.

WHY do you need a GPU that costs the same as the rest of your desktop combined?

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Fit-Judge7447@reddit

There's still great deals to be had. I got a 5080 prebuilt for the cost of some 9070xt and 5070ti prebuilts. Ultra 7 265k, 5080, 32gb ddr5 6000mhz for 2100 refurbished with a 2 year warranty. Same site I got mine from has a 4090 build for 2400 with 64 GB ddr5 ram and a 2tb ssd

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cuteman@reddit

refurbished for a "new" system isn't necessarily a good thing.

Listen, I've got a 5080 myself with a 99503XD but people don't NEED it.

I'm also getting to be an old guy who can afford it and most people around these parts are really pushing what is necessary

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Fit-Judge7447@reddit

I'm not a refurbished fan either, but I got a 2 year warranty, so I'm not concerned

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xXBumbleBee@reddit

Do you think a 5070 ti is worth $1,000 USD? That's what they're priced at currently.

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ggRezy@reddit

Yep I also wanted a 5090. Settled for the 5080

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jetstrea87@reddit

I am currently 980 GTX OC. I know its a big upgrade but settling 5070ti

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Capt_Gingerbeard@reddit

I’m not buying ANYTHING related to PCs right now. Sure wish I’d bought a second 4TB NVME drive when they were $180 though

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delph906@reddit

Some pretty good buys on monitors and cases at the moment.

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naptimez2z@reddit

The monitor technology is advancing like crazy and the manufacturing is ramping up. It's a perfect time to shift focus on what to upgrade next. I think within a year to one year OLED's and Mini Led's will be in a great place for everyone to upgrade too.

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HarrisonJC@reddit

That's an interesting take. Gamers budgets are getting squeezed, but makers of cases/monitors/peripherals don't want to get cut out entirely.

I'm wondering if that will result in them raising prices (and banking on gamers forgoing a GPU upgrade altogether in favor of a better monitor), or lowering prices (acknowledging the reality that GPUs are king in the gaming world and there's less money to go around).

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ggRezy@reddit

I’m sure glad I did

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DuePut452@reddit

Monitors cases power supply’s and peripherals are all unaffected

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onolide@reddit

Similar, looking at the prices for SSDs, I sure wish I got a WD SN850X 4TB(or even just 2TB). By the time NAND prices drop sufficiently, the WD SN850X might be discontinued(dun want a PCIe Gen 5 SSD right now)

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Granth0l0maeus@reddit

I grabbed a 2TB Gen5 from Crucial for $250 bout a month ago. It's $320 now.

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onolide@reddit

That's a decent price, congrats!

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AtlQuon@reddit

My stance is the same; no buying anything. Except when hardware failure forces me. Obviously after saying that, poof, one of my hard drives went south... lucky me, I found a decently priced new one.

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SceneFlat8274@reddit

When I bought my Tuf 5080 on Black Friday the 5090 Tuf was sitting there at $1999 on the Asus Shop website.. I thought about it and couldn't justify the $800 more for the 5090, I had the money. The 5080 is probably more card than most people need, most importantly me. It's a nice card at MSRP. The 5080 was $200 over msrp. At double the price you'd have to have a screw loose to buy a 5090 from a scalper. Jeez, get a grip people, it's a video card.

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DramaticAd5956@reddit

I paid 2.3k for my AIB model. I don’t think you have to pay “scalper prices”

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Paliknight@reddit

ventus is now over 3k at microcenter

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DramaticAd5956@reddit

Yeah.. it’s not scalper prices but what’s happening off the shelf.

I have the Asus 30th and the Ventus OC. I’ll never understand why it gets so much hate. I’m not a fan of RGB and it runs cooler than the FE on memory

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Scarabesque@reddit

This was in the first 3 months of the release of the 5090.

Well that sounds like up to date information on the market...

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Neither_Tip4156@reddit

I'm with you pods... After I spent $900 on a G.Skill Trident Z5 Royal Gold 6000 C28-36-36-96, I adjusted my build list. What was going to cost around $5500 started looking to be over $10k, and even more with dua GPU's for my ProArt build. I have the ProArt X870e Creator, RAM, and Case; that's it. Thought about waiting for the GPU and AMD X3D2 to come out, now realizing the mfg. are already estimating release numbers to be $1000k for CPU and $3999 for the GPU; kiss my a**!

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NonPoliticalAcct3646@reddit

I have a 9950X3D, 3080 Ti and 96GB RAM.

Obv would like to upgrade to a 5080 but not at these prices, my 3080 Ti has an AIO so it’s spent its whole life <60C. I feel like it should last me a few more years.

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GreenHeartDemon@reddit

You're almost like me, 9950X3D, 3090 and 96GB DDR5 RAM, bought the 3090 used, has served me quite well. But if NVidia ever releases their 6090, I'll probably buy it on the spot. I wanted to get the 5090, but it was such a shitty release, 30% more raw performance, 30% more cost, 30% more power and 200% more fake frames compared to 4090. But for all I know the 6090 could be the same.

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UltimateSlayer3001@reddit

The 5090 at MSRP is already at scalper price LMAO. It may be the best GPU in the market, but the jump in price from a 5080 by THAT margin? Nah lmao, I like spending money responsibly.

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cuteman@reddit

People use the word scalper like reddit uses the word fascism

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NonPoliticalAcct3646@reddit

Because there’s a lot of both in the world right now.

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cuteman@reddit

Overly dramatic

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NonPoliticalAcct3646@reddit

Don’t stay asleep while your rights are slowly stripped.

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cuteman@reddit

What rights are involved with pc parts exactly?

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NonPoliticalAcct3646@reddit

AI companies have pretty much been allowed to do whatever they want at this point.

This rapid, unchecked growth has lead to massive price increases for memory, storage and GPUs.

Politics affects EVERYTHING, burying your head in the sand and thinking/pretending they don’t is not a good approach.

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cuteman@reddit

Which of those things are rights?

Do you have a right to memory, storage or a GPU?

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MechanicRelative7169@reddit

This is similar to my strategy, I’m not paying all that extra money just for it to be obsolete in 3-4 years

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StatisticianUnited85@reddit

G skill flare x5 is almost 4x original price?

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stincejms@reddit

Even founders 5090’s have gone up because they are making more and vram pricing is up. As a partner, we’re paying closer to $2499 now for founders cards.

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BluDYT@reddit

The 5090 was the original plan for me but yeah released with no stock and by the time stock was available prices were already basically being scaled straight from the retailer anyway. Chose to stick with my 3080 ti again.

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EchoEmbarrassed8848@reddit

Priced are crazy. The way I see it if you have the funds and can afford. Snag anyway you can. Not sure about anything PC related these days with A.I. craze.

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BrokeButFabulous12@reddit

I was thinking of upgrading but i refuse to pay this nonsense for ram and gpus so im still rocking my old rtx 2080, i have no shortage of games in my steam library so i can wait a long long time. Sure we might not get back to pre-AI pricing but what we see now is ridiculous and its because ppl are fomoing in and corpos see theres always someone willing to pay this price so they will mark it as such. Imo new companies will fill the gap on the market to create new competition. Also weve seen this before, when the crypto mining rush happened, gpus skyrocketed, later ASIC miners came around as much more suitable for mining and the gpu prices stabilized.

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X4dow@reddit

so tell me where you got your 32gb ddr5 for $100?

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dantemp@reddit

Looks like I'm gonna sit on my 4090 for a decade at this point

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AlphisH@reddit

I already have to turn down things in games from 2023 on my 3090 :(

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LoliHunterXD@reddit

I mean, why shouldn’t you?

Those are the kind of cards most people use for the better part of a decade anyways.

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dantemp@reddit

I didn't buy it because I need it, I bought it because I wanted to treat myself. I was hoping I would get cool upgrades for around the same price every couple of years, like most generations used to be. When the 5090 was just 30% faster and with multiframegen as the selling point I thought "ok, guess I'm skipping one gen, not a big deal". If the 6090 is another 2x jump in price I'm probably not gonna want to upgrade again. And that sucks because I really don't spend on anything else, currently my 4090 PC costs more than my car and I'm happy with my car. I wish I had more cool new tech options as that's one of the few things that I do for myself these days.

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LoliHunterXD@reddit

I think 30% upgrade is huge for the highest end card, and it does get more RAM.

Upgrading every 2 generation is probably a more sensible option because if it increases by 30% each year, you’d be getting like 70~% uplift every 5-6 years. That’s not bad I think

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dantemp@reddit

yeah, that was the plan, but with the RAMpocalypse I'm afraid the 6090's gonna cost north of 4k and I'm not sure I can live with that even if I can afford it.

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sciences_bitch@reddit

I’m still rockin’ a 1080TI

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noiserr@reddit

I play on an iGPU (laptop). Works fine for the esports games I play.

[-]

xenaga@reddit

Yup, iGPU has been getting better especially with intel's new panther lake as well as apple's M5. A lot of people are also doing mobile gaming which is typically AMD iGPU.

I feel like YouTubers hype up the latest and greatest cards when high graphic settings from medium to ultra doesn't make all that much of a difference. The biggest jump I saw was going from 1080p to 1440p. Other stuff doesn't have that big of a jump in my eyes. But I also don't play too many graphically demanding games and I go more for atmosphere looks than sharp details and everything rendered so yeah.

[-]

TDV1e@reddit

Nearly 2 years ago, I paid the equivalent of 260 USD for a brand new 4TB 990 pro. Absolutely ridiculous now.

[-]

ggRezy@reddit

I also refuse but man you’re gonna be waiting for a looong time. Possibly years

[-]

Dramatic-Work3717@reddit

The vram conspiracy is real

[-]

Dramatic-Work3717@reddit

5060ti 16gb is a decent card if you have a vram bottleneck and on a budget

[-]

LoliHunterXD@reddit

Inma be real; at this time, don’t buy anything PC except for monitors (High refresh and resolution OLED going for like $300 is crazy). They all got a price hike. It is only alright if you buy used stuff.

[-]

TheBigEasy95@reddit

Curious why your going with the Alienware 32 inch 4K oled? I’m in the same market for a 32 4k OLED and there seems to be some better monitors at same price points as Alienware. Genuinely curious?

[-]

drasticfire@reddit

What does anyone NEED a 5090 for? Genuine question. Pretty sure it's only optimal for specific scenarios.

[-]

guzthegreat@reddit

4k 240hz gaming

[-]

drasticfire@reddit

That is definitely not a NEED, but certainly a WANT. xD

[-]

SQU4RE@reddit

you could say the same for gaming in general

[-]

inserterikhere@reddit

My go to strategy is to go through a bunch of “for parts” listings, looking for a description that gives me confidence that the card isn’t actually dead. So far this year, I’ve scored a 3090 for $680, and two A100’s (40GB) for $1k a piece. 104 GBs of vram for 2.7k…meanwhile a 5090 32GB is going for ~3.5-4k. Of course, unless you’ve had experience in electronics repair and know what to look for, then the gamble is probably not worth it.

[-]

EtemonDarknetwork@reddit

How long are you going to wait?

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EddieHask@reddit

Well… I have to admit I’m gonna pay scalper prices for the 5090. The 60xx cards are gonna be out before we see a decrease in GPU prices and NVIDIA suggested they may stop making cards and move to remote graphics processing. I believe they talked about selling subscriptions to GeForce which will be the platform that you could render through graphics through via cloud and AI.

[-]

CipherWeaver@reddit

DLSS 5.0 will be locked to 6000 series mark my words.

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Chuu@reddit

Considering the earliest we're likely to see the 6000 series would be January it doesn't make much sense to announce it now. I think occam's razor is, it was under development with a timeline anticipating a 6000 series launch this year, but while the software is ready the hardware isn't thanks to even stronger than anticipated AI demand.

[-]

Nosferatu_V@reddit

I do agree with you for the most part, but if AI demand is so high right now, why not launch a new gen and surf all that "new hardware" hype and gouge customers (datacenters and consumers) even more? My OCD tells me they wanted to match the DLSS version to the series' first number from now on, that would be the only reason they'd do such a thing. It's petty, I know

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Chuu@reddit

Because the bottleneck is at the fabs and every consumer GPU they produce is one less Enterprise GPU they produce.

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Nosferatu_V@reddit

Yes, but announcing a breakthrough new generation for consumer products will leave enterprises wanting that same improvement on their side. It would create hype and speculation over the better capabilities for that same silicon they would have purchased anyway, so they could open their wallets some more. If there was anything ready to launch the 6000 series, they would definitely have done so.

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Cute_Customer420@reddit

DLSS 5 is releasing this fall on 5000 series GPU's. the new 6000 series wont even be out for like 2 years+ (?).

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Nosferatu_V@reddit

I think they're trying to match the DLSS version to series number. It's the only reason they would rush such an announcement mid-gen. Then DLSS 6 will come out with 6000 series and so on.

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footpole@reddit

Hasn’t nvidia been bringing dlss features to more or less all generations? It just might not run well on a 2070.

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CipherWeaver@reddit

No, frame gen is locked to 4000 series and above.

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Nosferatu_V@reddit

Yes, but frame gen is not Deep Learning Super Sampling . The upscaling technology, transformer model and many other technologies from the DLSS suite have been backwards compatible, and probably will keep being so

[-]

kpatelreddit007@reddit

DLSS5 will work best with 5090 I have Nvidia sources.

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Low-Duty@reddit

I heard DLSS5 will work best with 9070xt’s. I have AMD sources

[-]

IllustriousPace8805@reddit

Cpu, mobo, ram combo at microcenter. $680.

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MiniTJD@reddit

Hell. I’m refusing to buy the 5070 ti let alone the 5090.

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Zesher_@reddit

Who knows when the prices will cool. We also had to deal with this crap when the crypto miners snagged all the parts. The nice thing about building a PC is that you can upgrade what you need when you need it, and that's been my strategy, when you have the budget of course. My CPU was 6 years old and really was struggling with what I needed to do, so that's when I decided to upgrade that (with a new motherboard and ram). I'm still rocking my old GPU, SSD, power supply, case, etc.

I would never pay a scalper for a part (or anything) though. It just reinforces their behavior, and for 99.9% of people, you don't actually need the part they're trying to rip you off with, it's just something you want and your life won't be impacted if you don't have it.

[-]

Wide-Strong-Elm@reddit

Whoa, 75 bucks is a steal! I'll keep an eye out for one of those, that's good to know about BG3 at 1440p too.

[-]

Wide-Strong-Elm@reddit

Yeah, staggering upgrades is the way. I'm still running a GTX 1070, haha. What kinda games are you playing that you're feeling the GPU bottleneck?

[-]

UndeadCaesar@reddit

The 1070 is such a great GPU, reddit has some real recency bias and you'll only ever see it recommended for like 1080p esports. I was running BG3 at 1440p on it and it looked great. Usually hitting 100Hz, dropping a bit when I would cheese some explosive barrel rooms but more than playable.

[-]

Lerola@reddit

Mostly true, sadly I made the big regret of getting an x570 mobo when I built my PC, which means that if I want to upgrade my RAM or CPU I'll have to upgrade both and also the motherboard.

Still more modular than getting a laptop but feels weird to be bottlenecked so hard

[-]

KySiBongDem@reddit

Nvidia does very well with AI and AMD is still behind on heigh end gaming GPUs (RTX 5080/5090, may also include RTX 5070ti but questionable compared to AND top flagship) plus the impact of vram shortage so not sure if there is any new gen cards coming soon.

This also means there is no need to lower the RTX 5090 price either. You so may wait and eventually pay the high price until you can no longer wait further.

[-]

tomByrer@reddit

I'm thinking if someone doesn't use local AI, then they should look at AMD GPUs, since they're in lower demand.

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Scarabesque@reddit

Prices of AMD cards mostly move with NVidias though.

NVidia understandably always commands a premium due to its superior featureset and compatibility, but increased demand for NVidia products puts pressure on the exact same production lines as anything AMD makes.

5070ti went from $749 to $949, the 9070XT went from $599 to $729; from being 25% more expensive to 30%. This will vary country to country, but the US generally has the most availability.

[-]

tomByrer@reddit

That's true, but about equal gaming performance is almost always in AMD's favor, correct?

Thus, if you don't need-need CUDA (& you don't have to ask; you know if you do), then I'd say shop AMD.

[-]

Boryk_@reddit

"Keeping forever" will be equivalent to the newest budget hardware in around 6 years, there is no forever in PC hardware. You act like you're protesting something but there really isn't anything to protest.

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Nosferatu_V@reddit

I get it that hardware gets obsolete much sooner than wed hope, but there is a kind of protest to be made at this time with skyrocketing prices. Show the companies that you don't need the shiny DDR5 RAM at >$400. Show them you don't care about the newest gen GPUs when they cost >$1000 (or even >$750 at mSrP).

It has never been more important to vote with our wallets and yet we see hundreds of daily posts of people saying "I'm gonna get me some DDR5 hotness" or "I weally weally want a 5080"

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bobsim1@reddit

Just another account for engagement farming. Last post was about a new build with an 5090. Also how is 32GB DDR5 less of an issue if the prices have doubled in a year.

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Reddit_is_srsbsns@reddit

What your doing is called shopping dude your not making a statement lol

[-]

helpfuldunk@reddit

Even at MSRP, I refuse to pay $2K for a 5090.

I jump from mid-range to mid-range when it comes to PCs.

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jacobpederson@reddit

I got mine at MSRP by driving 6 hours to a microcenter.

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7900XTXISTHELOML@reddit

The 5090 will never be at a “ reasonable price “ lol.

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RiteOfKindling@reddit

Yes. Do not lose hope. I refused to buy at scalpers high prices and then I got a NVIDIA email letting me buy one. It can happen to any of you, I’m just a random guy.

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AvgUsr96@reddit

990 Pro is fuckin 800 at Best Buy bro. Shits cooked Kentucky Extra Crispy style. This is why I got a PS5 Pro now instead of later cause its gonna be like 1200-1500 by next year with the cost of everything going up

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Accomplished-One-726@reddit

Its just way too much. I really wanted to upgrade my PC from the 3080 but im going to hold off. I rocking a LG 5k2k screen with the 3080 is giving me a solid 70-80 fps with dlss so im not in a rush. Just kind of wanted the best out of this screen.

[-]

KarmaKeeper91@reddit

U wont see 5090’s under $4000 by mid to late summer and most likely not under 4500 in 2027. All the marketing heads and the CEO of Nvidia has said AI’s next step is gpus, so take RAM and add in a much more perishable product in a gpu and find the ceiling on that price hike…

[-]

venturepulse@reddit

If you want maximum quality and performance for VR you simply have no choice but to aim for RTX 5090 sadly

[-]

Cyber_Akuma@reddit

Scalper prices? I would never be able to afford a 5090 even at normal prices.

[-]

AlfHimself@reddit

I am in a continuous state of refusing to pay scalper prices for anything.

[-]

HybridPS2@reddit

i'm not even paying MSRP for a 5090 lmao, that's way too much. waiting for 9060XT 16GB to be back around $400 or less and i'll be good to go.

[-]

ElectrifiedSword@reddit

Anyone else refusing to pay ~~scalper prices~~ for the 5090?

FTFY.

No. I will not be paying for the 5090.

[-]

Ok_Scar_7554@reddit

Same here I’m glad I but the bullet and bought my 9800x3d and 5080 when I did, the 5080 Is absolutely overkill even when OC. Granted I only play competitive games at 180hz with the lowest settings so I’m never pushing the card at all, but when I play emulation or story games that thing is an absolute monster, stays very quiet and cool with tons of OC headroom

[-]

MCFroid@reddit

I did this with the 5070Ti. I could have paid $1000 or so for one when they were in really short supply the first number of months after it was released, but I was stubborn and waited. It eventually came back down to MSRP, so I got it for $750. The situation now is a bit different though with regard to why the prices are so high.

[-]

NaughtyCheffie@reddit

I'm all about the used market, always have been. Fuck scalpers and their moms/dads and other previous generations.

[-]

SigmaQuantum792@reddit

gpu prices are cooked

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SigmaQuantum792@reddit

gpu prices are cooked

[-]

OutsideChampion4637@reddit

My play is not having enought money to even consider a 5090

[-]

cuteman@reddit

I prefer, enough money not to care about getting a 5070ti/5080 because that extra 5% doesn't really matter

[-]

9_of_wands@reddit

I have no plans to ever pay more than $1000 for any component. If prices don't come down, I'll just stop gaming.

[-]

cuteman@reddit

I used to laugh at the old Titan for $999 and people who would buy that and now apparently a generation later it's normal and people are falling over themselves to pay double or triple that in market cost for a 5090

[-]

Scarabesque@reddit

I'll just stop gaming.

Why? Do you only play the latest games or nothing at all?

Whatever your current machine can run it'll run forever.

[-]

9_of_wands@reddit

It will break down one day.

[-]

cuteman@reddit

lol what do you even need a 5090 for?

I am old, very well funded, have an enthusiast set-up with a 9950X3D and was lucky to snag a pre-built with a 5080 valued at 999-1499 and even it is overkill.

The top end card every series is always ridiculous- if you're at all concerned about cost it makes even less sense.

PS, 990 PRO? Bruh why not the 9100 if we're talking about 5090s

[-]

Visara57@reddit

5090

There's your mistake

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GIDAMIEN@reddit

"keeping forever"

until next year.

[-]

mattynmax@reddit

I’m glad I built my computer when a 5070ti was $750 and 65 gigabytes of ram cost $240ish

[-]

pCaK3s@reddit

Prices will not suddenly go back to a “reasonable price” until there’s a reason for suppliers to change it (new series/generation, new competition, etc.)

Manufacturers have realized they can control the market and there’s not a lot to stop them because now they have plenty of buyers today.

It’s been like this since at least the 20 series…. Be realistic with yourself and buy What you need/want to use today on programs/games you actually use.

Otherwise you will end up with limited performance from wherever you compromise, and by the time you “find your deal”… There will probably be a newer generation and your other hardware will be outdated.

Personally I would just get a 5080 and plan on upgrading as needed (not to a 5090). It’ll give you significant budget for a future card, and the performance to maximize your monitor and other hardware now.

[-]

dsinsti@reddit

I built 3 pc last year for my kids and mine, totally budget, running mag b650 tomahawk wifi with a r5 7500f a 9060xt 16 Gb and 64 Gb corsair ddr5 cl30 6000 mhz ram alongside 2Tb renegade nvme pcie4. I decided let's get ram because the cpu's might be replaced in a few gens and so far gpu with 16Gb vram will be relevant for some years. Now I feel I'm set for a long time, so ain't upgrading and playing For Honor with them until they drop the game (year 11 has been confirmed) so i might hold well for up to 2030.( See if king Donald manages to not destroy anything else and earth is still an habitable planet by then)

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pCaK3s@reddit

And that’s perfect for you. The issue is OP is compromising, knowing he wants to upgrade.

OP is buying a very high end monitor that his “temporary” GPU will struggle taking full advantage of. They plan on waiting for parts in hopes prices will drop, but there’s not clear indications or reasons they will drop in the near future.

Instead of sinking money now on parts with lower performance than OP is looking for, it would make much more sense for them to buy something like a 5080 and take full advantage of their CPU and monitor.

They would get much more use out of all of their other components, while being 10-30% less capable, but also being 1/2-1/3rd the cost, and allowing that budget to support a future upgrade (which in theory would have better cost-dollar performance).

Overall I would not recommend buying a high end CPU and waiting on a high end GPU for a potential price drop. Especially when that GPU was very expensive and not cost efficient, even when at MSRP (non-inflated price).

[-]

makoblade@reddit

Seems kind of nonsensical. The Samsung drives have never been worth the premium for consumer use, and without a good gpu the build doesn't need to happen at all.

5090 paper price at 2000 was never going to be for the masses. Until there's a new generation don't expect to get anything at that price. 3000 is about what the true price of a 5090 is.

[-]

Niccolado@reddit

That is insane. Three years ago i bought a 3090, brand new, for 1400$

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Scarabesque@reddit

5090 paper price at 2000 was never going to be for the masses.

About a half a year ago for some strange reason the 5090 FE was widely available here in NL, Denmark and Germany (same shop handled sales of both countries). We got 3 before supply ran out, market prices were already slightly higher than MSRP quickly skyrocketed shortly after. Extremely lucky, especially as we wanted the 5090s form factor for workstations.

I don't think it'll ever get close to MSRP again, and I'm pretty sure the FE models have gone out of production.

[-]

srilankan@reddit

If your ok with a 4060ti, you were never really in the market for a 5090 so not sure what the point of the title is

[-]

farmeunit@reddit

I bought extra storage and RAM before prices went up. Got cards an launch for AMD and once 5070Ti dropped to MSRP.

[-]

Silver-End9570@reddit

I'm refusing to get one period due to all of the melted cables, and the possibility of it happening. Not worth spending all that cash just for it to potentially end up fucked.

[-]

TrivialRamblings@reddit

I bought a prebuilt last June before this RAM debacle happened still paid a pretty premium for the 5090 though in the end it was the best deal I could hope for, finished paying off thru Klarna or whatever it was in June this year, if they release 60xx I may sell at decent price to upgrade

[-]

Celcius_87@reddit

Yeah I refuse to pay these prices for an RTX 5090. I can wait.

[-]

Eat-Playdoh@reddit

"MSRP" he says 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣!

[-]

bryrod@reddit

Jesus these prices are crazy, I got the Samsung evo plus 990 4tb for $200 last year during Black Friday. It’s $665 now

[-]

drras2@reddit

Just bought a 5090 FE for $2500 (upgraded from a 5080 FE). I feel mildly stupid but not terribly bad seeing all the other 5090 prices. My 64g ram kit originally was $200 now like $900. Yeah I'm officially complete and done with this BS for a while now.

[-]

Commercial_Soft6833@reddit

Was that brand new?

I'm toying around with the idea of selling my PNY 5090 but only if I can get a decent price for it.

[-]

drras2@reddit

Yes was purchased as new 😊. Im betting you can get a decent price for yours depending on your local market. Think my market is on the lower end, my 5080 is only garnering $1100 used.

[-]

Eye_Age@reddit

Walmart has 2tb wd black nvme for $189.

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ie-redditor@reddit

2k for a GPU is already crazy.

[-]

bobbymack93@reddit

Well seeing as 4090s have stayed pretty consistent closer to $2k on the second-hand market, you're going to be waiting a long time for a 5090 to come down.

[-]

Sufficient-Science71@reddit

Both my pc and laptop have 3070 and I dont think I will buy another gpu again. At least not until both of them croak over. I dont need 4k full rtx on and whatnot, 1080 medium high at reasonable fps is good enough for me. Not like there is any worthy game to play these days anyway.

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BaconMacandCheese@reddit

Yeah and I would like 90s gas prices back lol

[-]

FrequentWay@reddit

You aren't looking at the right spots.

Military bases are still getting the FE models at $2K.

[-]

FrequentWay@reddit

I would do a PCIE 5.0x4 4TB SSD compared to a 2TB PCIE 4.0 x4 SSD. You don't need to pay for the Samsung name tax. Also PC components constant change or evolve.

[-]

tiimsliim@reddit

Just build a computer last year.

[-]

Hirork@reddit

Yes I am refusing to pay Nvidia prices for the 5090.

[-]

kpatelreddit007@reddit

Prices don’t really go back, technology depreciates. I ran a crypto company in 2019 bought GPU at the peak than took a 70% depreciation hit in 2021.

[-]

beirch@reddit

You had a feeling prices would skyrocket back in December when RAM prices had already doubled? Some sixth sense you have there.

[-]

derkapitan@reddit

At first I thought he meant December 2024. Because you know that makes sense haha. If he meant December 2025 I don't think he saved much.

I built January 2025, got my graphics card end of February 2025. Glad I did at this point... My pc would be 2000 dollars more now, easily. Based solely on being worried about tariffs though.

[-]

kpatelreddit007@reddit

I did, December 9th.

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derkapitan@reddit

Yeah I figured. What really started me thinking about it was missing the super cheap ssds in November/December 2023. All the storage manufacturers said they were slashing production because of over supply from demand during covid. I figured I wouldn't miss a good deal if I saw one, even though the best deals were never close again. If I remember right there was a 4tb WD ssd for under 200 in 2023.

Then we got the tariff scares going on and I pulled the trigger. It ended up being a little bit of a nothing burger, but the AI demand for storage and DRAM was not. My ram kit is floating at 900-1000 right now. I paid 204 after tax for it. My ssds are both double or triple. Gpu is about 2000+ over what I paid now jeeze...

I just put my pc together on pcpartpicker part for part using same components, but I used the cheapest GPU in the list of same type, founders isn't even available.

Final price:7225.75 if I remove the gpu the cost of the pc is getting close to what I paid for it total. The GPU itself is 250 dollars short of what the ENTIRE build costs.

[-]

kpatelreddit007@reddit

I got the Microcenter deals. Got a 3.5K Mobo, RAM and CPU. Picked up my 5090 for 2.7K then built my 14K threadripper.

[-]

nakedspirax@reddit

Facts.

First it was because of mining that made cards expensive and now it's AI. It's not dropping anytime soon.

[-]

katzengoldgott@reddit

That 5090 price is more than 6 months worth of my rent (Germany). Fuck these prices lol

[-]

clayterris@reddit

I don't even think of it as scalper pricing at this point. That's just what one costs now. Scalpers absolutely suck, but all the silicon is going to the industrial chips now. If I were in your position I'd try to grab a retail(ish) 5080 or an msrp used 5070ti.

[-]

Duckysawus@reddit

Last week I built a C 9 285K + Astral 5080 OC + 64 6000/CL30 + ProArt Z890 and threw in 20Tb of M.2 SSDs, another 8Tb SATA SSD, and 20Tb of HDDs. I was debating about the 5090 but it just didn't make sense when storage mattered more to me, and I'm happy I got mine below $2,000 when the prices just spiked up again this week on that model.

I don't think you'll be able to find a 5090 for $2,000 or so for at least 3-5 years at this rate.

I'd assume that the factories churning out the AI-components will take 1-1.5 years to get running, and maybe another 2 years for the manufacturers to care about producing more GPUs. Also consider that producing smaller silicon gets exponentially harder, which is why they've brought back the 3060 cards on the 8 nm.

Manufacturers aren't likely going to go smaller than the 5 nm they're doing. If so, costs will just be even higher for 4 nm or smaller (harder to produce).

[-]

WasabiSyn@reddit

It's not really scalping at this point when retailers themselves are pricing GPUs at said prices.

[-]

BushMaori957@reddit

They range from 6-10k where I am. It's ridiculous

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Conscious-Salt-1523@reddit

So 4090 already MSRP?

[-]

kidflashonnikes@reddit

I’ve got some really bad news for you pal. Good luck

[-]

Bobert25467@reddit

I wouldn't pay for a 5090 with how many of them have had their connectors burn. I rather play at a lower res or refresh rate with a GPU that doesn't use that connector.

[-]

nakedspirax@reddit

I bought a strix halo recently with 128 gb for 3k

[-]

fishymamba@reddit

Currently have a 3080 and 3950x. Wanted to upgrade the CPU this year, but nope. I think I can hang on for a few more years. Might jump up to a 5950x if I can get one used for cheap next year. The 3080 I want to keep till it's not usable.

[-]

SnooSketches3386@reddit

I got lucky and received an am5 board with ram and CPU as a holiday gift last year. I should be able to hold out for the next 3 years at least, assuming the world doesn't end first.

[-]

Lord_Goose@reddit

Microcenter hhaasz killer dealss.

[-]

Some-Other-guy-1971@reddit

The good news is that there have not been any major (or even minor) improvements or steps forward in technology from the time prices were reasonable until now. Any half way decent PC built before the crazy price hikes (to where now the price is just set to a point where they are saying “don’t buy from us….we don’t want or need consumer dollars…”) is still going to run just fine for years to come.

[-]

Low-Duty@reddit

I mean yea sure but you’ll be waiting potentially a year or longer

[-]

unicron_ate_my_home@reddit

I have a 5080, 7800x3D, 32gb DDR5

I will be saving up for a 6090 and hopefully not need a GPU for a while after.

[-]

slapshots1515@reddit

I mean I have a 5080, 7800x3D, and 64GB DDR5, and the only reason I ponied up for a 5080 was playing on 4k. I will not be overpaying for a 6090, whenever that even is.

[-]

unicron_ate_my_home@reddit

Yeah same I play in 4K and it overclocks like a beast. I really regret cheaping out and not getting a 5090. Once I get a 6090 I should be good for a long time. OR... Get a 5090 if the deal is good enough in a year or two.

[-]

slapshots1515@reddit

What makes you regret “cheaping out?” I haven’t found a game yet that I can’t put on basically max settings at 4k with a 5080, unless you count absurd stuff like ray reconstruction in Cyberpunk.

[-]

greggm2000@reddit

You might consider a 7800X3D instead of a 9800X3D, it’s still plenty fast, and you’ll probably want to upgrade to the 11800X3D (or whatever the Zen 6 equivalent will be called). Rumors (which may be wrong) have it to be a real beast, with 50% more cores per CCD and some other stuff.

5K (with dual mode 1440p) monitors have been shown off at CES a couple months ago, and might be worth considering. Sharp text and graphics for stuff that doesn’t demand high fps, and you get 2x fps at 1440p for action games and stuff that might. “Best of both worlds” and this year’s evolution of the 4K screen you mention.

[-]

9okm@reddit

Drop the 990 Pro completely. It’s pointless. SN580 is good long term.