TheaterFire

Is that the whole truth, or just half the truth?

Posted by Deep-Ad4183@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 72 comments

As someone who values historical accuracy, I am trying to determine whether this particular account overlooks certain details or presents a complete picture of the situation. I am not here to provoke a confrontation. I am only here to verify the actual facts. Anyone who knows the facts should share them with us, backed by evidence.

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72 Comments

TheTurkishYoghurt@reddit

It doesn’t look even half the truth but reading some other comments here I once again realize how we are all exposed to propaganda in our own countries and believe our version is the truth. Especially “calculated” data and undocumented history wise…
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Adept-One-4632@reddit

Balkans were never majority muslim. During the Ottoman times, surveys showed the muslims at being only around 20% of the population. After all, the christian identity had a strong presence in the region for centuries. And prior to the 15th century, Islam didn't have a relevant role, unlike in the Middle East. Yes, there were some measures made in yhe 19th century against the muslims, but to label it as genocide is silly. In summary, I have no idea what is this man drinking ( *whisper* and i am not sure if he is even a muslim)
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zanimljivo123@reddit

During the ottoman occupation - serbs from BiH opressed and terrorized by bosnian muslims 1908 - shutzcorps formed by AH, consisted mostly of muslims and croats who terrorized serbs in BiH 1914 - tensions arise, serbs have been put into concentration camps, again by muslims and croats, beaten, killed, population terrorized, many people hanged, families robbed, killed serbs number in tens of thousands 1941-1945 - croatian movement ustashe, which consisted of many bosnian muslims, again starts commiting atrocities against the serbs, torturing and killing them in concentration camps, taking their young children and raising them in croatian and muslim spirit. Most accurate estimates put total number of killed serbs at around 750.000. I no longer care for my people and country, not a bit, but what i hate is LYING and what i hate is twisting historical events and twisting the truth, leaving more than half of events out of the story just so that it can fit your narrative.
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Zagitrooper@reddit

The number is most likely 350,000 Serbs, not 750,000.
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New_Accident_4909@reddit

God knows the numbers really. I went on public list to look for my family members that were kulled by ustaše and even with insanely long list of names, they weren't there. I go with same reasoning as for Srebrenica, I don't discuss the numbers as its disrespectful.
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Ujemegaz@reddit

Maybe he implies that 350k then, equals 750k now. Like the $ currency deppreciation. 
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zanimljivo123@reddit

No, the number is most likely around 750.000. No need to try to reduce it or feel bad about it. You have no part in what happened.
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Zagitrooper@reddit

No, the number is 350,000.[There is a Wikipedia page about the death toll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Serbs_in_the_Independent_State_of_Croatia#Toll_of_Victims_and_genocide_classifications), and you can see that most historians put the number at about 350,000.
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zanimljivo123@reddit

Wikipedia page says enough for me. It is around 750.000 as i said and i do not care about discussing furthermore. I know that croats simply love reducing serbian suffering, as i said, no need to feel bad about 1941-1945 because you took no part in it.
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Zagitrooper@reddit

"700,000 Serbs were killed in NDH because I said so" -_-
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zanimljivo123@reddit

Because germans said how croats killed 3 quarters of one million serbs + the fact that on some days thousands of serbs were killed so achieving the number of 750.000 in 4 years is more than realistic, especially considering that we saw it is possible in even around 3 months as rwandan genocide showed
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Zagitrooper@reddit

That was an estimate by a German diplomat Hermann Neubacher, basically a one person's estimate, not an official German calculation.
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zanimljivo123@reddit

Not official german calculation but more than one man estimated number to be around 700.000 - 750.000 and as i said, the fact that on many days there were thousands of serbs killed all across NDH is enoigh for me to know that this number is more than realistic.
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Zagitrooper@reddit

Who were the other people that estimated 700,000? And there were many campaigns were thousands of Serbs were killed in one day, but it wasn't that often after 1941.
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zanimljivo123@reddit

Across all of the NDH on some days more than thousand people were killed, am i speaking chinese? As for sources, i don't have time nor the nerve to search something i read 2-3 years ago, do your research, it's out there
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pavol100@reddit

Number 253674673
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zanimljivo123@reddit

Ok
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Infosignalsol@reddit

It's hard because noone really investigated in details those events immediately after ww2. Numbers from historians, archeologists, writings, texts etc varies a lot, but i will just give you one example. My great grandparents were from a village 300km from Jasenovac, and they were brought there, of course never seen again, killed there. There were a lot of witnesses and documented stories how many and from where mostly Serbs were brought to concentration camps in NDH.
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PapaStorm@reddit

Maybe you ought to explain the background of the formation of the 13.th handzar division. Since you hate lying and twisting of Historical events so much, it would mean more if you gave the reason
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zanimljivo123@reddit

Easy answer, official reason is that it was formed because of crimes serbs commited in eastern bosnia
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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

This isn't truth at all lol
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Vajdugaa@reddit

Well, this guy is clearly a propagandist that tells half the truth. First the picture is ai slop. The Balkans were not over half Muslim, but it had a higher percentage of Muslims than today. Yes, there was hate against the muslim population during the Ottoman occupation that lasted 500 years, but this was common and spread among every oppressed Christian ethnicity. Serbs, Croats, Greeks, Bulgarians etc. During this time, Christians were oppressed, had to pay high taxes, their children were stolen by the jannisary army, they didn't have the right to own land but were subjugated and Muslims owned the land (timar). They were brutally tortured during ottoman occupation. He never mentions that, because of his one-sided narrative. During the uprisings for national liberation from the Ottomans, many Muslims were expelled, but this was not just the local converted population, but Turkish settlers also. This has happened throughout the whole Balkans. Many Muslim Slavs were expelled from central Serbia, and they fled to Bosnia. Now Bosnia was never liberated by the Ottomans. Bosnia was occupied by the Austrian Empire in 1878 and annexed in 1908. Bosnian Muslims were the Ottomans' first-class citizens because of religion, they weren't oppressed and did not have to pay jizya taxes like the Christian population. Over centuries, this grew animosity towards them, and they were called poturice (which means "turk-convert") by Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats. They were never really expelled or genocided by the Austrians. Many of them left for Ottoman lands because they did not want to be ruled by an infidel ruler. Later it became part of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. There was some kind of discrimination during that time because Bosniaks weren't recognized as an ethnic group. They were simply called Muslims. This, however, changed during communist Yugoslavia. Bosniaks refused to call themselves Croats and Serbs and would rather stay unidentified, so the commies gave them the right to self identification under the name Muslims (with a big letter M). During WW2, Bosnia was part of the fascist state of Croatia. During this period Ustashe genocide against the Orthodox-Serb population happened. Bosnian Muslims were not targeted but were considered Croats of the Muslim faith. Many Bosnian Muslims were part of the Ustaše army. It's also important to mention that many Bosniaks got killed in Eastern Bosnia by Serb Chetnik forces. Many of them were part of Yugoslav Partisan forces. What this guy mentions (christanslavdom) is actually called Svetosavlje. It's a far-right Christian nationalist ideology. He tries to portray it as common belief among the Serbs, but that is a lie. Now, during the 1990s Bosnian war, chauvinism, propaganda and ultranationalism did indeed go by the narrative in the video (expell or kill). The International Crime Justice courts for war crimes concluded that Bosniaks from the Srebrenica enclave were the victims of genocide. Many Bosnian Serbs military commanders were convicted guilty of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and the torture of Bosniaks. What this guy does not mention is that many Serbs and Croats were also victims of war crimes and ethnic cleansing. This, however, does not change the fact that Bosniaks were the biggest victims of the war. It's a lie to speak about 150 years of multiple genocides. Bosnia was never liberated by the Ottomans, it was never conquered by the Kingdom of Serbia. The Austrian empire or Yugoslavia never committed genocide of Bosniaks. They wouldn't be a majority in Bosnia today.
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volcano156@reddit

![gif](giphy|0gIQqyDATQINBSpmO3)
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Natural_Scholar_1502@reddit

I read all of this and it is definitely the Serbian perspective.
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

It seems like you're describing things in a much more objective way.
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PasicT@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/sd7pcjjd31pg1.png?width=1163&format=png&auto=webp&s=8c8b9fe60c3765d01b2eb9428331a0dfdf01f9dd That's really all you need to know about Serbs.
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Gimmebiblio@reddit

I am sceptical about the "majority Muslim" thing. In some areas I'm sure it was true but in the Balkans as a whole, I seriously doubt it.
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subooot@reddit

Yea this guy talk is stupid. Just look at this [map](https://collections.lib.uwm.edu/digital/collection/agdm/id/2009/) from the start of the 20th century.
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

Me too. That's why I'm looking for answers
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StPauliPirate@reddit

The biggest lesson of Ottoman Empire & Yugoslavia is: multiethnic and multicultural societies are destined to fall into chaos. I can see similar things happening in Germany, France, Sweden or UK couple of decades later.
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New_Accident_4909@reddit

Cough*** Kurds*** cough **
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StPauliPirate@reddit

Yes the biggest mistake Atatürk ever made. Including them to the republic was a generational fumbling. I would have been fine with a kurdish state in some parts of the southeast and northern syria/iraq.
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

If it were as you say, they would have granted them self-determination over the past decade. Instead, they fear them and suppress their every move in neighboring countries. What you’re saying is hypocritical. It’s just that Atatürk worked closely with them to create Turkey; otherwise, they too would have met a similar fate to the other ethnic groups in Anatolia. The worst nightmare of nationalism is the cession of territory
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New_Accident_4909@reddit

Noone refuses more territory, unless youbsre Malaysia they really wanted to get rid of Chinese that bad lol.
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

They are doomed to descend into chaos when one society is oppressed and the other is favored. Imagine if they took your nine-year-old son to enlist him and you never saw him again in your life, or if your Muslim neighbor earned twice as much because he has a Muslim name while you go hungry. It’s not multicultural societies that are to blame, but the system and the specific elite that governs under a specific identity, discriminating against others.
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Fickle-Message-6143@reddit

The only thing true is that Serbian and Montenegrin nationalism was anti-muslim actually the truth is that it was anti-Ottoman just like Bulgarian, Croatian, Greek, Romanian nationalism. The problem stems from fact that Bosniaks had almost same rights as Turks in Ottoman empire that was reason that they were called Turks, because politically and class wise there almost wasn't difference between Bosniak and Turk in Ottoman empire. The armies sent to defeat Serbian uprisings were firstly from Bosnia and commanders were Bosniaks, which everyone seems to forget. Also one thing, good chunk of Bosniak elite was one that has done oppression of Christians in Bosnia, Bosnia had a huge autonomy during Ottoman empire.
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

Generally speaking, all Muslims within the Ottoman Empire were referred to as Turks. Being a Turk was synonymous with being a Muslim, even if you didn’t speak Turkish. It doesn’t have the same connotations we associate with it today.
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m0mchilo@reddit

\>all Muslims within the Ottoman Empire were referred to as Turks. because they identified as turks as the ottoman empire was collapsing? i know they've changed their identity after and that calling them turks nowadays is considered derogatory but at that point of history it was simply a fact
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

To be honest, I don’t know how Bosniaks identified themselves during that historical period.
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m0mchilo@reddit

they identified as turks during austrian occupation, they switched to 'muslim by ethnicity' during the kingdom of yugoslavia and socialist yugoslavia, and they finally adopted bosniak national identity during yugoslav breakup wars you still have bosniaks identifying as turks, especially in rural areas
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

Interesting. Thanks for the information.
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Infosignalsol@reddit

"Multiple genocides committed over 150 years". Yes, but why he implies that those genocides were against muslim people only? This is how narrative works.
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m0mchilo@reddit

balkans during ottoman occupation according to this guy https://preview.redd.it/d8k1bn02k0pg1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c6802f2389d90fcb6fa765588ce85fc5a1229046
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m0mchilo@reddit

\>multiple genocides happened to them over the 150 year period literally the only was was from 90s yugoslav wars \>balkan people wanted to be free from the ottoman rule how dare they \>balkans was majority muslim blantant lie fuck this guy and fuck the obvious agenda he's pushing
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PieBright8211@reddit

Religion is absurd
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

No. I'm trying to understand the story. I have no connection to those countries. I'm just interested in understanding
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PieBright8211@reddit

I m about to share a clip from a provocative film that fuels Serbian nationalism. I see some fascist circles supporting these kinds of posts as if they were a badge of honor. Honestly, I'm tired of seeing this kind of hate speech in the Balkans. We’ve been fighting each other for nearly 100 years, and what do we have to show for it? Absolutely nothing. Please don't ask provocative questions here that aim to create chaos. 🇧🇦❤️🇷🇸
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

It’s not a provocative question. If we don’t face the reality of the situation in the Balkans, chaos will reign once again. And let me tell you, I have absolutely nothing to do with the content of the video. I’m just trying to get the full picture.
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Deep_Maintenance_734@reddit

Well I' never heard a "christianslavism" or whatever the term is.. and also never heard that Slavs are christians and you should kill non Slavs. Muslims in Balkans committed atrocities over multiple centuries, they are invaders.. not victims
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

He **claims** that Serbian nationalism holds that Slavs are Christians by nature, and that any Slavs who converted to Islam under this nationalism are no longer Slavs; they were called Turks even though they were native Slavs.
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Deep_Maintenance_734@reddit

That's the common trope about Serbian nationalist spoken bu bosniaks... Rarely if ever I heard someone in Serbia claiming that.
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Deep_Maintenance_734@reddit

At this point that whole "multiple genocide" shtic is becoming a joke.. It's like bosniaks are searching for identity outside islamized Slavs so they chose to be victims of MULTIPLE genocides
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Turbulent-Debate7661@reddit

Who's that dpuchebag. For real
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Ready_Engineering116@reddit

I always love this kind of posts. Reminds me when balkanism_ posted ‘’ the good things from Ottoman empire ‘’ The so called I am not nationalist but I spread nationalist propaganda type of guy
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

He specializes in Islamic studies and the Ottoman Empire, particularly as a caliphate. He is a Bosnian Muslim.
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Ready_Engineering116@reddit

I saw it and ok fine. But stating without anything that Ottomans did and what kind of brutal things they did on non Muslim people is kinda nationalist Balkan view.
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

I agree, but I don't know what was happening in the region of the former Yugoslavia during the Ottoman Empire.
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Ready_Engineering116@reddit

That’s the thing. Like stating that majority were Muslims and how they were the victims without saying how brutal ottomans were. Just go to ćele kula in Niš and find that. Were there regular people who were moved out Balkans after fall of Ottmans, sure there were. Does it justify, sure not for regular people. But let’s not forget what things Ottomans did and had slavery for almost 500 years.
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Ujemegaz@reddit

By 150 years, he implies expelling of Albanians from Serbian kingdom in 1870s. Bosnia then was annexed by Austro-Hungary afaic, so there was no way that Serbia commited much cleansing there. The problem with "muslim" and "turkish" narrative is that they try to drag us as well. We do not consider animosity as being related to religion. But, in a way, the expulsion of Albanians from Serbia then opened our eyes. If it hadn't happened, maybe Albabian nationalism would have never consolidated in 20th century. 
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thereis_light@reddit

Considering that there are cities with a majority of muslims in Serbia like Novi Pazar the rhetoric is definitely inflammatory. Though throughout the 19th century serbian nationalists, as far back as Karadjordje himself have chased out and killed muslims from the territory of nowadays' Serbia, a lot of Albanians and Turkish people and what we call Bosniaks now have also been victims of such atrocities.
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One-Act-2601@reddit

it's not even half the truth, it's just an inkling of information.
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LenaLena93@reddit

Balkan was never mostly Muslim overall. “Serbs committed “yet another genocide “?? This false informations and oversimplifications casually posted as facts should be somehow penalised.
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zog_i_zi@reddit

Christoslavism? Really?
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

What does that term mean? Does it really hold up?
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zog_i_zi@reddit

Maybe have something with **The 1992 Sarajevo wedding attack** I dunno 🤷🏽‍♂️ first time hearing it from you
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)

Αnd I heard it for the first time today.
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Fred_Neecheh@reddit

Lol no. The Balkans were not majority muslim. Dominant ideology in Serbia in the 19th century wasnt neccesarily against same-language-speaking muslims, eg witness Vuk Karadžić writing a compedium of customs for "Serbs od all three laws [ie confessions)]" a [a link to wiki here](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQp7K7q5-TAxWEVfEDHUzwAcAQFnoECA8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fsr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%25D0%259A%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D1%2587%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B6%25D0%25B8%25D1%259B_%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25B8%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D1%2598%25D1%2583%2C_%25D1%2598%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA_%25D0%25B8_%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B1%25D0%25B8%25D1%2587%25D0%25B0%25D1%2598%25D0%25B5_%25D0%25A1%25D1%2580%25D0%25B1%25D0%25B0_%25D1%2581%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0_%25D1%2582%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8_%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BA%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0&usg=AOvVaw2S0KbucixldBVeQKDIbhu-&opi=89978449) In the later era, Young Bosnia had muslim members and identified itself as *Yugoslav* nationalist, in fact, various Serb nationalist of the time saw Serbia as the "Piedmont of Southern Slavs". South slavic muslim identity was primarily defined by faith for a longer time than its Orthodox or Catholic neighbors, so with A-H occupation, some started self identifying as Bosniak, but some as Serbs or Croats. That said, you did have a campaign of murder of muslims in East Bosnia during ww2, by avowed Serb nationalists ("chetniks"). (and on the other side a Bosnian muslim vilounteer Waffen-SS division "Handchar") In any case, you can be against the crimes in the 90s, including the genocide in Srebrenica, without trying to project it back in centuries.
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Zagitrooper@reddit

As far as I know, there weren't multiple genocides commited against Bosniaks over 150 years. There couldn't be one because Serbia didn't have access to territory that included Bosniaks.
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Infosignalsol@reddit

Of course there were, but against Serbs in Bosnia, the most massive one is during ww2 of course.
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Last-Information-232@reddit

>As far as I know, A quick Google search will help your simple mind to know better, and yet you seem to be unable to think with your own brain. Classic Pavelić's fanboy
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Specialist_Elk140@reddit

That's pretty much the same outsider sort of thinking, you pick a side in that war and then make it like your side is fully innocent and the other is the bad guy. People mixed way better in the Balkans prior to the war, even though there were always tensions. One hand, the Serbs should never have committed the atrocities regardless of the painful historic association with Islamic rule in the Balkans. On the other, hand the Turks should have never invaded and created the very division that affects the Balkans to this day. It's no worse than the division caused by the Brits when India partitioned in 1947 and that pitted Muslims against Hindus/Sikhs and vice versa. It's just that there is this same delusional idea on the Muslim end, especially the diaspora who believe that the Turks being majority Muslim were innocent and they did nothing to provoke hatred against themselves.
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Last-Information-232@reddit

Oh look a diasporic vlah without basic history knowledge, color me surprised...
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